Cochlear Implants, Hearing Aids, and a Whole Lot of hEARt: A Mom’s Journey Raising DHH Boys

When hearing loss enters a family with no history, everything shifts.

In this episode of the EmpowEAR Audiology Podcast, Dr. Carrie Spangler sits down with Makaela, a mom of three boys — two of whom are Deaf and Hard of Hearing. One son has bilateral cochlear implants, and the other wears bilateral hearing aids. She shares what diagnosis felt like, how her family navigated early decisions and intervention, and the emotional journey that followed.

Out of her lived experience, Makaela founded hEART to hEARt CLE, a parent support and collaboration group bridging families and professionals.

This conversation is about more than technology — it’s about advocacy, resilience, and the power of community.

If you’re a parent at the beginning of this journey — or a professional walking alongside families — this episode is for you.

You are not alone.

🔗 Learn more about hEART to hEARt CLE: https://www.facebook.com/groups/663519298193613/

 🎙 Follow the EmpowEAR Audiology Podcast for more conversations 

For more information about Dr. Carrie Spangler- check out her Linktree at https://linktr.ee/carrie.spangler.

For transcripts of this episode- visit the podcast website at: https://empowearaudiology.buzzsprout.com

Transcript

Carrie-Host 0:09

Welcome to the EmpowerEar Audiology Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Carrie Spangler. Today's episode centers on a parent journey from diagnosis to advocacy to community. I'm joined by MaKaela, a mom of three boys, two of whom are deaf and hard of hearing. Her family have navigated both bilateral cochlear implants and bilateral hearing aids, with no family history of hearing loss. Out of her lived experience, she also created a parent support and collaboration group called Heart to Heart CLE. This conversation is about the real life side of hearing loss, what families feel, what helps, and how connections changes everything. So welcome, MaKaela, to the EmpowEAR Audiology Podcast. Thank you. I'm really excited to have you two. And I know many parents are listening, and early in their journey, they might feel alone. But before we get started today, can you just introduce your family and your boys?

MaKaela 1:17

Yeah. So I'm married to my husband, Tony. We met at the Ohio State University, and then we connected years later, but that's a story for another time. We have three boys. Pray for us. Three boys, very young. Bennett is our young our oldest. He's six. Our middle son, Corbin, is four, and then our youngest is Holden, and he is two. When it comes to hearing loss, we have the full gamut. Bennett was born with full hearing. And then Corbin was born with severe to profound hearing loss. And then we have Holden, who was born with mild to moderate hearing loss. So we have a little bit of everything.

Carrie-Host 2:00

You do. You have like the cover every single part of the hearing loss journey for sure. Right? You don't really have family history that you know of. What was it like for you receiving this diagnosis with Corbin, I guess, and then holding afterwards.

MaKaela 2:18

Yeah, gosh. So every mom going through pregnancy, you monitor every single detail. And so honestly, with Bennett, who is our oldest, who has full hearing, they kept telling us, like, oh, his long bones measure short. What does that mean? And so of course I like Googled it and I was so stressed, so anxiety, like provoking. And then he was born healthy and happy. And we're like, okay, that meant nothing. And then when we got pregnant again 10 months later, very, very quickly after Bennett, same thing. And they're like, okay, well, because of the history, we're not really that concerned. But in my head, of course, as a mother, I was like, okay, but why are their long bones right? And that was what my head focused on. Never in my wildest dreams did I anticipate any sort of hearing loss. So then Corbin was born March 12, 2021. And I'll never forget, like, he came early and he came quick, and he looked at me and like they laid him on my chest, and he looked up and looked at me. And I I know that that was his way of saying, like, we're in for it. Like, we have something ahead of us, but I'm here and I'm great. So we had another baby at home, and he was 20 months old and we're eager. So it's like, okay, I don't need lactation. I don't need all this stuff. Let's get it going. And I just wanted them to move forward with all of the newborn screening. Didn't think twice about anything other than just getting home to my other baby. And so when it came to the newborn hearing screening, they're like, oh, interesting. We need to take him back to the nursery. I was like, okay, whatever. Let's hurry this up. I just want to get him home to meet his brother. And then they came back and they're like, hey, like, we're referring you. And it's like, what? What? They're like, yeah, we're referring you. He did not pass his newborn hearing screening. It could be because he was born quick. It could be, but my heart sank. And I kind of like my mom gut kicked in. And I knew this wasn't anything other than maybe something very big. And I think I knew. So I literally sat there as the nurse was talking and Googled best audiologist. And I was like, I don't care. I'm calling this woman. And I booked an appointment. And they're like, you can wait a month. I'm like, okay, well, he's going in five days from now. And I booked the appointment to get his ABR. So we brought him home and clapped in his ear and did all the things that were not healthy. But five days later we brought him in and we saw Dr. Allison Ziska Durham, which we actually had a connection with later on, found out. So that was like a little God moment. And she was like, okay, we're gonna do an ABR. She's like, really, this is like, we'll see how it ends up, but we'll see. And so I was holding him, nursing him, getting him to sleep the best I could. And then I watched the audiologist face. And it was taking longer and longer. And I'm sweating, and she's sweating, and we're all sweating. And I could tell it was not going well. Okay, I thought it was not going well. And I was like, okay, in my head, I was justifying it. God, like if it's something, like maybe something we can fix or very something minor. And then she like cut and she came in and she's like, hey, okay, this it's she's like, we'll have to do follow-up tests. He's six days old. But I don't remember exactly what she said. She described it so beautifully and so like professionally. But I just remember her saying permanent, lifelong, and only treatable by hearing devices, and the world went black. And she kept talking and it was Charlie Brown and I just kept holding him so tight. And I knew nothing about we knew nothing about the hearing loss world. So to us, it was like the world was crashing in. And I couldn't listen to her. And she talked and I couldn't listen. And she said something about cochlear implants and something about hearing aids. And she kept talking. And I kept being like, Stop get me out of this room. He's six days old. I can't. And so she's like, it's your choice. You're his parent. You'll do the best for him. I was like, yes, yes, give me out of the start. And so I remember like we walked out of that room, walked to the car, and it was rainy and dreary. And I'm like, what? Literally a downpour. And I remember sitting, like I couldn't even sit up front with Tony. Had to sit in the back seat in between him and Bennett's car seat. And I just lost it. Like, how? I didn't know what his life was gonna look like. And I just looked at that empty car seat of his brother, and I was like, how would they ever communicate? There was the naiveness or the ignorance. I didn't know. I just my heart broke. I just wanted to talk to my baby.

Carrie-Host 7:20

And I'm sure many parents who get the news like that. They hear, like you said, a couple of words, and then yeah, you just go into another spiral of just, you know, everything that you're trying to you want for for your baby and you don't know what you don't know yet, right? At that point in time. So what happened then? Like you got home and what were your next steps? You got home and you just wanted to get out of there, and you had a little time to process, I'm sure, once you got home.

MaKaela 7:54

Yeah. So honestly, we got home and I remember like doing all the things. I was like, maybe they're wrong. And I would like clap in his ear. And I hear the dog bark and he'd look. And I was like, he looked. He looked. He looked. And everyone said, and I know. Like they'd be like, no, he kind of did. I was like, no, he didn't. And so, like, in those moments, I wept. You know, like I wept for me. I wept for Corbin. I wept for my husband. I wept for his brother. I just didn't know. I just truly thought, like, oh my gosh, is he gonna have the life that we always planned for him? You know, like when you see those two pink lines, it doesn't matter that they're just like these little cells. Like you go and you see who they are gonna be. And so I was like, oh my gosh, who is he gonna be? And I didn't know anyone that was deaf. And I didn't know what was capable of him. And I didn't know, I just was heartbroken that he wasn't gonna be who I envisioned him to be when I saw those two boys wasn't gonna be his brother, but now I've learned that they're never gonna be their brother. And in the early hours, we were like devastated. And I myself was so against cochlear implants. I was like, I don't want that permanent thing on his head. I don't want surgery. I don't know if it was a vanity issue or ignorance or what it was, but I was like, no. And she's like, that's your choice. You're his mom, that's your choice. And so I was like, no, I don't want it. We're going, we're leaving, leave me alone. Don't talk to me. So what I guess, how did you get to that next moment then? So I remember so distinctly, like me and my husband were sitting on the couch and we called the people we loved the most. Like, hey, our baby, like he has this, and we would cry and cry and cry. And I remember Bennett coming over, 20 months old. Mommy, why are you so sad? And I was so, so sad. And I was like, I have no hope. I have no hope. I don't have no hope. Like literally, I can't think of one thing that's gonna pull me out of this. And then I Googled cochlear implants. I didn't want to because in my head, in my ignorance, I was like, that's for kids that had these other things. And I Googled it and I was like, oh my gosh, this is what we need. So Corbin was seven, eight days old, and I was like, This is what we need. And I Tony and I both we quickly turned our tune. We were like, this is what we need. And we knew he was a candidate. There's no doubt, because of his level of hearing loss. We're like, okay, based on what they're telling us, even though she said, Hey, you're gonna have to be like tested again. But we knew he's gonna be a candidate, and this is what he needs. And if this is what's gonna give him the access to oral spoken language, then we're gonna do it. And we're gonna do all we can to get there. So we were annoying. We made sure that they knew that that was our goal. Mm-hmm.

Carrie-Host 11:01

And I guess moving forward like that, how did different people help you with that decision? Does that make sense?

MaKaela 11:10

Yeah, it does. We were so blessed to be like planted with the best possible professionals who are Cleveland area. And so my dad, he's not in the medical world at all, but he has friends and friends and friends. And so they're like, hey, you should probably reach out to Dr. Anne. So I emailed her on a Saturday. I didn't even use my chart. I was like, no, I'm going straight to the email. Like I found her email on Google and I was like, Dr Anne. And she emailed me back immediately. She's like, Oh my, I sent a picture of Corbin because who could resist that picture? And she was like, Oh my God, like, please get him on my schedule. And so that's how it all started. And we got plugged in with the best possible people. Like Dr. Anne was the start of it. And Dr. Durham was wonderful. And also, like, side note, she was also a friend of a friend who, like, I already scheduled a n appointment with her. And then I reached out to a friend and was like, hey, do you know anyone that was born and failed a new born hearing? So you're like, yeah, no, but not really, but hey, reach out to her. And I was like, I already did. So God, moments, left and right. And then Dr. Anne and then Dr. Goldberg, Dr. Jamis, all of them. It was just like a lineup of people that I was like, okay, deep breath, deep breath. And every time I got introduced to those people, I was like, okay, I really truly can take a deep breath because they were just so wonderful. And they saw my child for who they were. And I'm sure they see every one of their patients for who they are, but they saw Corbin for who he was. And like seeing who he is today, they predicted that day one. And he's so special. He is.

Carrie-Host 12:56

He is. I love the kid that I love being his Auntie Carrie. Yeah. And I guess my other thought, especially for our listeners, is I think the cochlear implant journey can be really scary. And like you said initially, like you didn't even want to talk about it, think about it, and even think that was a possibility. What kind of change besides Google? I mean, you were like, okay, this is what he needs, but you had a great team too. Was there anything else that helped you decide and know that this was the right decision for your family?

MaKaela 13:29

Yeah, I mean, I knew that he was born with severe to profound hearing loss. So when you look at that, and like you look at the audiogram, what his ears can capture is so little. And so I am an advocate for ASL. But if your family doesn't know that, and you have siblings that don't know that, that are young, you can't teach that overnight. You just can't. And that's something that my heart has like, I want to teach my kids that someday. And we're working on that every day. I'm in an ASL class, my kids, whatever. But I just wanted my kids, my two boys to be able to communicate. And so research shows that once they get those implants, they can hear. It's not like you and I hear, but they can hear. And we never saw a difference between that and Corbin's development.

Carrie-Host 14:23

Yeah. So Corbin, just for our listeners, was one of the earliest cochlear implant recipients. For sure. How old was he again?

MaKaela 14:32

He was like seven and a half months. Yeah.

Carrie-Host 14:35

And what did you have to do? Like, what did you guys do after he was implanted?

MaKaela 14:40

And yes, like it was a long road. So we got the diagnosis, my heart broke, all the things. And then he got hearing aids of probably like four and a half, five weeks. We worked on those and like again, it was stimulating his auditory nerve. And then seven and a half months, he underwent bilateral cochlear implant surgery, which, you know, like no parent wants to go through that. It was a six-hour surgery. And I remember them texting me, like, he's doing great. He's doing great. And then like the last one, they didn't put an exclamation point. So I was like, it's not going well. And I was freaking out. My husband was like, he's fine. I was like, no, they didn't put an exclamation point. They did before. They draw it now. It's bad. But needless to say, he was great. The 24 hours after surgery were hard. But then I'm not kidding, Like. 24 hours after he bounced out. He's like, he played, he did all the things. And so after that, I mean, leading up to that, and after that, I think our biggest strength was auditory verbal therapy with Dr. Don. People can often look at that and was like, oh, it's poo-foo. Like it's just like something you do. But I do know in my heart that that was such a benefit to my children, both Corbin and Holden, who didn't have surgery, but like the idea of learning how to listen is so, so important. Yeah.

Carrie-Host 16:10

So that was kind of like your early intervention then. And you said Dr. Don was a great professional that really kind of helped too. What else help what other supports do you feel were helpful for your confidence?

MaKaela 16:24

Yeah. So number one, Dr. Don, auditory verbal therapy, however, you can get it, get it. And then for me, like I was so stressed. Everyone's like, he's doing great. He's so wonderful. Like he is exceeding every expectation. But for me, I was like, okay, how can I put him in an environment where he's challenged to learn or hear differently? And so we did kinder music, we did music classes, we did baby sign language, we did library story time. I tried to put him in any situation where I could observe him and wonder, like, can he hear? And every time he could hear. Which is rare. Maybe that's just unique to him, but I do think it's important, like, even if your kids not hearing well in those environments, put them in them so that they can adjust and learn and figure out.

Carrie-Host 17:21

Yeah. And that's a great point to be able, especially at that age, because you're teaching them so many different advocacy skills for listening. And if they are missing things, then you can kind of observe that and figure out a good way to teach in a case of probably 18 months old.

MaKaela 17:40

And it was kinder music, which was at the time like the Hudson youth school. And they're like in the drums. They're like also and I was like, Corbin, Corbin, come here. And he heard me through the drums, through like cymbals, through all the things. And I'm just like, what? How? But his brain is just so adaptable. And I don't know, I like pray that that's gonna carry him through, but I don't think his brain knows any different.

Carrie-Host 18:09

Right. Well, the fact that you found out so early with the newborn hearing screening, even though it was so emotional, and then you were very early with getting an appointment right away and getting the diagnosis, even though it was very hard at moving forward with the early intervention, he didn't miss anything. Like you said, he knows no different. So those are a lot of like, I guess, the journey of the early intervention, like this is what we need to do. But there's a whole emotional side of that too, and you kind of share it a little bit. But is there anything else about that emotional journey that you want to share for parents?

MaKaela 18:48

Yeah, I think so. It's so hard because when your child is diagnosed with something, whatever it is, it's hard enough to like only see him that way. And so for a long while, or like early on, that's how I saw Corbin. Then I realized his older brother, again, who's less than two years older, has his own things. He's not diagnosed with anything, he's just Bennett. And Corbin's just Corbin, and Holden's just Holden. And they all have things, and we all have things. Like I have things that are imperfect for me. So I think that's such a grounding statement of motherhood. If your child is diagnosed with something like hearing loss, that does not define them. You know, like, yes, support them. Like you're gonna probably have to support if you have any other kids in a different way. And I truly wholeheartedly believe that. And I that's something, even when Bennett was like two years old and his brother was born with this, I was like, hey, we instilled that in him. It meant nothing to him now, and it still maybe doesn't. We always tell him, like, yes, your brother was born different. He has visible evidence of that because he has cochlear implants. Yeah, and Holden has visible evidence of that because he has hearing aids, but then it, there's things about you that are so different. But that makes you you, and it's hard and it's good, and it's all the things. Yeah.

Carrie-Host 20:15

Looking at the whole kid, right? The whole child, and they're all gonna have their unique strengths and their unique challenges no matter what they are. I wanted to also ask you about since you've had the journey of hearing aids and cochlear implants, like, how is that different?

MaKaela 20:32

Yeah, it's a challenge for sure. So the unknown is always the hardest. So when we had Corbin, obviously, we're like, oh my god, this is unbeknownst to us. And then we found out we were pregnant with Holden, we knew one in four chance. So we prayed. We're like, God, please give us a baby that's either hearing or deaf. We're not sure of the in between because the unknown is what's challenging. You know, like we're just please, God, please. And then Holden came and God had a plan for that. So it's challenging, but we also understand that it's not really about the hearing loss, it's not about the hearing devices, it's about the kid. You know, like Holden is who he is, and Corbin is who he is. They're different kids and they're just different in that regard. Corbin from day one was, oh, you said a link sound or I will look . And Holden was like, I'm ignoring. You know, it's just who they were made to be.

Carrie-Host 21:34

Yeah. Well, you have a lot of experience with all types of technology at your house. Yes, we do. You have been a huge advocate too for your kids, too. Do you have anything to share with families about just being an advocate? Even when I think about you just advocating for the medical appointments and like getting into therapy. And like getting for preschool and things like that.

MaKaela 22:03

Yeah, I think my biggest thing is just like continue to push for more for your child. We are in the best of the best school districts. We love our team so much, but I don't ever want and even with Dr. Don when he was like two, I never want there to be like a ceiling for him. And that's hard, you know, like as a professional, like you have a ceiling. Like this is the what assessment says. This is what the parameters say. Like this is what is appropriate. But for me, I'm like, okay, but he was made to be him and don't put that glass ceiling on him. You know what I mean? So I think you can kindly say, okay, but if he didn't have hearing loss, what would that expectation be? Or how can we challenge him further despite that? For me, like, I don't ever want hearing loss to be the defining matter of my child.

Carrie-Host 23:00

Yeah. And I think you've said before, like the sky's the limit.

MaKaela 23:04

Yeah. Dr. Don told us that on day one, and I didn't believe him at first. I remember like Corbin was like literally like four weeks old, brought this newborn in. He's like, sky's the limit for this kid. I'm like, and then we saw, and like Dr. Don continues to like see him and progress him. And I'm like, yeah, we see it.

Carrie-Host 23:27

He's an amazing kid. I love waiting.

MaKaela 23:30

Have him on your next interview because he has a lot to say.

Carrie-Host 23:34

You mention earlier when you found out about Corbin and the diagnosis? You were like, we've never dealt with hearing loss, we don't know anybody. How did that impact you and kind of stir you to help other families?

MaKaela 23:49

Yeah. So when you hear that, you're like, what am I gonna do? And so I remember like coming home that night, crying, crying, crying, this was already expressed. But then I like looked on Facebook and there is like an FB small group. And I remember being like, I laid it all out there. Cause like, what do I have to lose? And I was like, hey, this is my newborn baby. He's like two days old. And someone reached out to me and she was like, Hey, like, I noticed we have mutual friends. And she's like, I live in Kirkland, which is not far from you. And she's like, This is my son Wes, and he's four years old, and he has mild to moderate hearing loss, and he's doing so well. Like, if you need to talk, let's talk. And so I private messaged her. And like in that moment, I was I'm not alone. You know, because prior to when you don't know hearing loss, you're like, you feel alone. And now, since then, like multiple people come up to me like, hey, my kid or my cousin or my sister or my, you know, like the world gets a little smaller, but when you're first introduced to her, you're like, I feel so alone. And so it was ironic that she lived in Kirkland, super close. Her son was four years older than mine. And so she like walked me through what her experience was, but also the fact that she was close by and she was similar to me. And a mom that I could tell was raising her kids like me meant so much. So then Dr. Anne said, hey, like we need this. Like you can't be alone in this. Would you be open to helping start a support group? I was like, I don't even know what that means, but sure. So there's been so many moms. One mom that went through the same thing with me, Kelly. She's been like my friend. We actually knew each other like in college, or like ironically, through grad school, and she had twins, and they were born the same time, and one was one, and one was hearing, one was not, same as Corbin. And so now to this day, like, yeah, we don't see each other all that often, but she's a person. And we started the support group, and different people throughout the journey have like seen that and come to me, and it's just wild what support can do for a family going through that.

Carrie-Host 26:10

Yeah.

MaKaela 26:10

To know that you're not the only one. Yeah. And like, yeah, I had that connection and then Corbin was born. But then there's people post Corbin who go to my church and she's like, hey, my child has this. I've seen Corbin and he's my hope. Can you walk me through this even though my child's older? And I'm just so grounded by that.

Carrie-Host 26:31

Yeah. I mean, it's such an important thing for families or parents to have that opportunity to connect with people in their own shoes. Yeah. Though your journeys maybe look different, but you have a similar bond and it's probably immediate with a lot of any ways.

MaKaela 26:48

And like when you don't know, like for me, he was an impet. And I truly like Dr. Don's like sky's the lemon. I'm like, okay. But I didn't know. And then I saw people on this Facebook group that were like, my child's now going to Harvard. My child's now like in the star of the soccer team. Like, you just need to see real authentic like examples to know he's gonna be okay. Right. And probably just singing the ABCs. That's all I needed. I didn't care if he goes to Harvard. I don't care if he's a soccer star. I just need him to see the ABCs.

Carrie-Host 27:23

Yeah. You know? Yeah, along the way. That is so important. And so that started that was the heart-to-heart C L E. And how does that look right now? Is it just for families? Is it for both families, professionals? How do you frame it?

MaKaela 27:39

Yeah, so it's a work in progress. It's so hard. Like me being a mama three. I would love to be more proactive with it. And we try to do at least one like community event a year, which is not enough by all means. And then we do like quarterly online meetings, but it's like an online social community with so much room to grow, is what I would say.

Carrie-Host 28:02

But having that opportunity to even connect once a year and see the other families and kids together.

MaKaela 28:10

Yeah. And it's been so cool to see like kids just themselves. You know, like even Corbin, I don't think he gets it. Like in his world, 50-50. One brother has it, one brother doesn't. So he doesn't necessarily get it yet. But when he's with other kids, I hope that that gives them confidence. And then actually, ironically, so we had that event for heart to heart last year at uh Little Gym. And one of the girls that was working there, she just worked at Little Gym, was deaf herself. And I didn't know that. They they didn't know that no one knew that she was bilateral or single-sided deaf. And so, like that day, I was like so preoccupied with everyone else. And she's like, Hey, I'm actually deaf. And I was like, Oh, that's so cool. I talked to her about it, but not much. So this honestly, like three weeks ago at church when Tony, but it was that as basketball game. She came up to me, Sienna. Her name is Sienna. She came up to me, she's like, Hey, you probably don't know me. I'm like, No, I don't. She's like, Hey, yeah, I'm Sienna. I worked at that event you had for kids with hearing loss. She's like, You don't know this. But I told you I was deaf. And I was like, Yeah, I remember you saying that. She's like, that event inspired me to get cochlear implants. Wow. She's like, You changed my life. Wow. She's like, I got it. She's like, I actually have to go back and get it because something happened. Oh, Jesus. She's like, but that event changed my life because I saw Corbin. Yeah. And I saw all those kids who were thriving. And I thought, if they can do it, I can do it.

Carrie-Host 29:51

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So you never know when a moment's gonna do somebody's life. That wasn't for me, but it changed my life. Oh wow. That's amazing. Yeah. But it sometimes just takes meeting someone to be like, oh, I can do this. Like it's gonna be okay. So if we kind of wrap up a little bit, what would you want like a parent who just received a diagnosis to hear right now?

MaKaela 30:16

My biggest advice always is to mourn. Take as long as you have a need to mourn. Like it mourning isn't like a prescription. You can't, it's one day, two days. It doesn't we don't know how long it takes to mourn. And I can even describe how long it took for me to mourn. But I would say while you're mourning, take that next step. Because early intervention is so key. Like for me, I was still mourning while I made that next audiology appointment, while I made that next ABR appointment. Mourn, but take the next step.

Carrie-Host 30:51

And I'm sure do you still feel like every once in a while it comes back? Like it's a cycle, like a new weight. Yeah, for sure. Is there anything that I didn't ask you today that you would like to share with families or professionals who listen to the podcast too? I mean, is there anything professionals should be aware of from a family perspective?

MaKaela 31:16

I think most professionals already know that, but it's like each individual is different. I can't compare any of my children and whether Holden was given like cochlear. I don't even think he'd be where Corbin was. Just see every child for who they are and support them along the journey. And that's all we can do, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 31:37

Well, MaKaela, I just want to thank you for sharing your family story so openly with the empowEAR Audiology podcast. And I know your journey and the community that you built through, like even heart-to-heart CLE, it just showed that doesn't limit anybody and shows what's possible. So I hope the parents that are listening, they feel that they're not alone in this and to kind of follow what they need to follow. And if you want to connect with MaKaela, I can link the group to the show notes today, and then people can find you out. But until next time, I just want to thank listeners for EmpowEAR Audiology Podcast for listening. And if you find this helpful, please share with others so that everyone else can learn from all of our guests. Thank you.