Lots to Unpack There
We’re Jess and Lisa, two best friends in our 40s living in Maryland. This podcast is about life, motherhood, leadership, and everything in between. We’re navigating the “messy middle” of personal and professional life and have learned that having someone who just gets it makes the journey less hard.
Each week, we’ll share something real from our own lives and unpack it together in real time. Our hope is that as we process and reflect, it’ll inspire and help you do the same—wherever you are.
Lots to Unpack There
Beyond the Label: Finding Your Professional Edge
Jess and Lisa dive deep into the mysterious ways our professional identities shape our personal interactions, revealing surprising insights about hidden assumptions and unexplored potential.
Jess shares her puzzling tendency to apologize when canceling subscriptions or requesting refunds—despite not considering herself a people-pleaser in other contexts. This "subscription guilt" prompts a fascinating exploration of why we sometimes feel obligated to justify our consumer decisions. Could it be that professional communication patterns are bleeding into personal interactions? The friends unpack how our work personas can unconsciously influence behavior in unexpected ways.
The conversation takes a profound turn when Jess reveals how her coaching practice has evolved beyond her initial target demographic of "moms in leadership." Through a new platform where she couldn't select her clients, she found herself working with numerous male executives—something she hadn't anticipated. This experience challenged deep-seeded assumptions about both her capabilities and her clients' receptiveness. "Who I am is so much more multifaceted than I was giving myself credit for, and who they are is so much more multifaceted than I was giving them credit for."
This revelation speaks to a universal truth about professional growth: stepping outside our comfort zones often leads to unexpected discoveries about our capabilities. Like a chef's knife being honed for specialized purposes, Jess discusses how diversifying her client base is "sharpening" her coaching skills in ways working exclusively with similar clients never could.
Whether you're questioning your own professional boundaries or curious about how subtle limiting beliefs might be operating in your life, this episode offers valuable perspective on recognizing and challenging the assumptions that constrain our growth. Connect with us on social media to share your own experiences with limiting beliefs and how you've overcome them!
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Hey, it's Jess and Lisa.
Speaker 2:We've got stories to share From our hearts to your ears. Lots to unpack there.
Speaker 1:Tune in every week you won't want to miss. Dive deep into life with Jess and Lisa.
Speaker 2:We're.
Speaker 1:Jess and Lisa, two best friends in our forties living in Maryland. This podcast is about life, motherhood, leadership and everything in between.
Speaker 2:We're navigating the messy middle of personal and professional life and have learned that having someone along the way who just gets it makes the journey less hard.
Speaker 1:So each week we'll share something from our own lives and unpack it together in real time. Our hope is that, as we process and reflect, it'll inspire you to do the same wherever you are. Hi, happy Friday.
Speaker 2:How are you?
Speaker 1:I am good. I had a kind of last minute scheduling change today where my appointment right beforehand canceled and so I went and ate lunch at my favorite restaurant, and so I am so happy right now, did you, I?
Speaker 2:did Excellent. Yes, was a leisurely solo lunch or it was a fun more than just you lunch.
Speaker 1:No, it was a solo lunch. I walked in. They confirmed my order before I sat down. They brought me my food. It was amazing.
Speaker 2:Yes, I would say you are fairly well established at this place of business by this point. Yes, yeah, they know me. Yes, I was actually just telling the story of that particular restaurant because I was right next to it today. I was right near it today and I was saying that, you know, we Googled closest place to where we currently are. Right, it was that restaurant which has now become your go-to favorite restaurant in the area.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and I mean every time I eat there I think I cry a little bit because it's so beautiful, the food is just so, it's just so beautiful.
Speaker 2:I know we have different experiences. Yes, I have had a very different gastroenterological response to that restaurant than you have. I'm so sorry. Yeah, I'm, I'm. I will be ready to try again soon, though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, maybe the next time try the vegetarian one. Yeah, maybe, yeah, maybe that's, that's part of it.
Speaker 2:I mean I can't argue that logic.
Speaker 1:Yes, so I'm great, I'm great how has your week been?
Speaker 2:My week has been phenomenally open comparatively, which I was noticing quite the, you know, the goldfish principle of time, in that no matter how long you have the things that you do, fill the space of the time that you have.
Speaker 1:I am familiar with the principle. I did not know that it was called the goldfish principle.
Speaker 2:I mean, I may have just Did you just make that up Kind of. I knew it was the goldfish principle in that, like the, the thing that fits into the size container Right that it has.
Speaker 1:The tasks that you have expand to fill the time you have Exactly Expand or contract to fill the time you have, and also goldfish. I mean, they say, you put them in a bigger tank and they will grow. Exactly To be bigger, exactly so it makes sense how you got there. I've just never. Yeah, I think maybe you made it up.
Speaker 2:Maybe not True of children in clothing, and true of time and tasks. Yeah, yes, similarly. And goldfish, and actual goldfish, if you please, which I do. I was more of a Siamese fighting fish person myself. What A Siamese fighting fish. A betta fish.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm familiar with betta fish.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're also called and I think somewhat, maybe racially insensitively Siamese fighting fish. That was the name that they were called when I was younger, I don't think they use that terminology. Now, I have never heard that terminology. I mean to be fair. Siam does not exist as a state. It is now Thailand. But interesting yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, I mean, we had. We had those two.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's that If I'm going to, if I'm going to get a, you know, relatively uncomplicated pet, I would go with the beta fish over the goldfish myself, personally. We are still working on houseplants at our house You're working right up the food chain yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not going very well.
Speaker 2:Well, I think houseplants are one of the hardest things to keep alive. So if it were, me I would never advance to a fish or a cat or a dog or children, which would mean I basically would never have children. Luckily I did that in complete reverse order, so yeah, my kids really want a pet.
Speaker 1:They, they really, really want a pet. And I love when the grandparents bring the pups. I mean it's fine, it's nice for them to visit for a little while and it's nice for them to go home.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think so much responsibility. Dogs are a lot. Dogs are no small amount of work, I know, because everyone around us in our neighborhood has a dog and they all seem like an awful lot of work. So I'm very happy with my wee cat and his wee life and changing his litter box once every two weeks and calling that that he is a very cute cat. He is Truly yeah yeah, very cute cat. He is Truly yeah, yeah, but yeah, so just enjoying my time to myself. For those of you who may not have listened to last week's episode, I was recently my position was eliminated from the job that I worked at the corporate headquarters type job that I worked at and so now I am in the midst of my month of wind down before my severance starts and I am finding myself much unburdened time wise and responsibility wise, which is very nice. There was an incident that happened that involved my team and it felt very good to give that to the person who's going to take over doing my work and say good luck.
Speaker 1:Let me know if you need anything from me, but otherwise, this is your responsibility now, yeah, yeah, I can imagine that that bittersweet right, I mean it feels good, but also like that bittersweet right, I mean it feels good, but also like ugh, yeah, it was a little bit difficult to make that choice, to say to like in that instance.
Speaker 2:I'm mindfully not engaging on this very purposefully, but I am still going to make sure that the work is appropriately handed to the right person and I think that felt good to do that and good to walk that line of like.
Speaker 2:I am not going to take responsibility for this because this is no longer my job and also I care about the people that I work with, have worked with, and I am going to make sure that they have the information that they require to do whatever it is they need to do and to just write that phrase for your action as deemed appropriate meaning.
Speaker 2:Don't consult me on this because this is now yours to deal with and it's a very corporate-y type phrase, but it's one that I have used quite a lot in my life as a security partner to kind of put that response, that security responsibility, whatever it is on the correct party and say this is your responsibility to fix.
Speaker 2:I am identifying it for you, but you need to take action from here on out as you see fit to match the situation that's in front of you. So that's the first time I've used it in in this job because, being a manager and a program leader, I didn't often get to defer responsibility for things Right, but yeah it's. It's been very nice to say yes to things, to tell people I can come to them, to give them the space to find the holes in their calendar that work best for them and kind of give a lot more deference to people than I typically would be able to do when I had a jam-packed calendar of between five and 15 meetings a day and had to squeeze life into the little cracks and crannies of my work.
Speaker 1:Right, I think we said it last week, but it does feel like we flip-flopped a little bit.
Speaker 2:I was thinking about that. Yes, because your last two weeks and my last two weeks have entirely inverted.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, yeah, and well, I kind of I have a mini unpack and then I have an unpack snack I have. Yeah, it's a little unpack snack.
Speaker 2:Let's unpack snack.
Speaker 1:So I've been thinking about this for a while and I keep I don't know why I do this. I keep like thinking about it, but then I bounce off of it and then I go away. So it has to do with subscriptions. Okay, and how, when I'm trying something new and I I get sniped all the time to try new things because I'm apparently very susceptible to all of the social media marketing and I'm like, whatever, I'll try anything for you and everyone else. Sure, 30 days, 90 days, whatever. So I'll try it. And they'll say, well, if you subscribe, you get a discount. And so I subscribe because they're telling me this is how much our product actually costs, because we're giving you the discount.
Speaker 1:But then I don't like it. And so then I have to cancel my subscription. Yes, but I feel so guilty about it. And in my email I'm like, oh sorry, you know, product didn't wasn't quite what I was looking for. I soften my message instead of just saying please cancel my subscription. And I don't understand where this is coming from, because typically I I would not consider myself to be a people pleaser. I mean, I'm pretty.
Speaker 1:I mean I try to be tactful, but this isn't even pleaser. I mean I'm pretty. I mean I try to be tactful, but this isn't even. This is not even about the people. It's about the product and I'm like oh, I really wanted to love it but I didn't, so please cancel my subscription. And I just I don't know why I do that.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, backing up one one beat. You are definitely not a people pleaser, thank you. You are a kind person, sure, sure, okay, that's the distinction there is that you try to treat everybody with kindness. You're not looking to like, you're not codependent in any way that I've ever recognized in you.
Speaker 1:So Well, thanks, you're welcome. Valid.
Speaker 2:So well, thanks, You're welcome, but yeah, I don't I.
Speaker 2:I would also struggle to understand that because, truly, like, their whole purpose for existing is to provide you with something that you're going to use theoretically long-term, since it's a subscription. And if you don't find value in it, then yeah, Although I wonder I wonder if companies sometimes make like legitimately make products that they really don't stand behind super strongly that they're not. If people subscribe to them, the number of people that will actually cancel those subscriptions is far less than the people who want that. So, like they end up with lots and lots and lots of customers for people who are just not willing to cancel their subscriptions, whether it be because they're awkward, it's an awkward situation or it's it's a task that they put off. That would be me right. That's why I don't enter into subscriptions typically, because I know that I will put off and delay that cancellation as long as possible, which means that they will get between one and three months more product buying out of me, which will more than make up for the discount that they have already given me.
Speaker 1:I think that is the gamble. I mean, I think that's the choice that they're making in that, and so, if I look at it through a, this is cutthroat business whatever they're trying, they're just trying to make money. They don't really stand by the product. Then I feel less bad about it because I mean, basically they, they, they're daring me to subscribe and cancel.
Speaker 2:Right, I never would have thought of it that way. But yeah, that is essentially yeah.
Speaker 1:But on the things where I genuinely am thinking this is something that might be really useful for me, I think I would like to have a subscription. Then I feel bad because I didn't end up liking it. It feels maybe like I'm entering into the agreement on bad faith. I think that's maybe the root of the feeling that I'm feeling.
Speaker 2:Okay, all right, talk to me more and more about that. What do you mean in bad faith?
Speaker 1:Like, with the intent to cancel, you know like just using the subscribe for the discount, even though I'm really thinking if I like it, I'll continue subscribing to it.
Speaker 2:That's like. That's like being like, feeling like it's bad faith to get insurance and then use it when you have a medical issue. That's literally what the discount is for is to get you to subscribe and then cancel if you don't like it so yeah. So maybe I need to let go of that, whatever that is, are we talking about subscriptions to like mom and pop outfits where people have like put their blood, sweat, tears and 401ks into the product and, like you feel like emotionally connected to the owners?
Speaker 1:No, I can't say I know any of these owners.
Speaker 2:I don't.
Speaker 1:It's like there was oh, this is gonna, this is gonna be illuminating, yeah, I don't know how much weird I want to. I want to fly in this uh in this podcast. But it's like I'll see a new probiotic and think, oh well, I need a probiotic. I take a probiotic every day. I should just sure I'll try whatever. And then you know you try it, for you can't just really try it for one month.
Speaker 2:You got to try it for three months and then well, and that's the thing, they tell you that it won't even work for three months.
Speaker 1:There's also that, and so there was another supplement that I thought, oh yeah, I'll give that a try, but then I just had terrible side effects from it, and so I was kind of like I really wanted to love this and also I really can't get past all of these side effects that I'm experiencing.
Speaker 2:So you apologize to the company for giving you a product with ill effects on your body.
Speaker 1:That's awful right. Why do I?
Speaker 2:do that, I think the emotion I would be grappling with would be kind of anger and frustration, not sympathy, yeah, I don't know, but I mean you've owned that. You understand that this is like somewhat out of character and a little bit like kind of out of nowhere behavior for you. And so really it's not about me like sitting here in judgment of you saying, like why do you do this? You're asking yourself that exact question.
Speaker 1:Right, because there's the other thing that I think is kind of related, where I had a bad stretch of delivery luck for like a couple of months. I remember this when I would order something and then I would get not the full order missing an item. I mean order missing an item. I mean I think it started it might've been a six month stretch, where it started in December 2023. And I would say it continued through summer of 2024. And I feel bad contacting these companies to let them know that they didn't send me something when really they should feel bad that they didn't send me something when really they should feel bad that they didn't send me the thing. But then I am like but if I were a dishonest person and I just wanted more of this product, I would probably say, hey, you didn't send me this thing, and so even sending photographs I'm thinking like that would be so easy to fabricate. You just take out the thing that you want more of and you say, hey, you didn't send me this thing, and then they send you more.
Speaker 2:There's a million and one ways to defraud a company, and vice versa, I mean and and so I think it's kind of that, but it's the same kind of bad. You think this is what a dishonest person would do if they were being dishonest?
Speaker 1:Right, but I'm being totally honest. But it makes me feel dishonest because I know that a dishonest person would do that.
Speaker 2:That is a level of guilty conscience I am impressed with.
Speaker 1:I am not impressed.
Speaker 2:I'm wondering how you ever got through a polygraph personally. Poorly Okay, Well'm poorly Okay. Well, that that tracks, Yep yeah.
Speaker 1:I think maybe I don't know, could this be the empathy mirror neurons, something firing Like are you worried that you're creating work for somebody? I, I think maybe there is the the income. There's a component of this. That's the inconvenience.
Speaker 2:It's just like the fact that you yourself was massively inconvenienced by these things not showing up and or giving you like side effects.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, which is why it's perplexing, because I would say that that's like a people pleasing tendency that I do not typically have.
Speaker 2:It is and I've never heard of such a thing in you. So one I'm rather pleased that I'm learning something about you, because I love to learn things about you that I don't already know, but this one is a bit of a puzzler. Bit of a puzzler. I won't. I won't lie about that, because I feel like you're almost taking on responsibility for somebody else, which, again, it's just really not. It's really not how you tend to operate. You tend to take appropriate boundary. You know responsibility for your side of the street. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I wonder if maybe the thing is I'm feeling guilty about some sort of negative emotion.
Speaker 2:Are you feeling guilty about having bought the product in the first place, because you mentioned that a lot of these are coming from you, being sniped and marketed well to on Instagram. Is there like a component of this? That's like, well, if I hadn't been on social media in the first place and I hadn't been susceptible to this kind of viral marketing and I hadn't have you know put in my credit card, then I wouldn't be in this situation. So it's really my fault. Is there any like?
Speaker 1:back.
Speaker 2:That doesn't resonate at all, that would probably be me. If there was any correlation, that would be me. I'd be like, well, this is my fault anyway, because I shouldn't have been doing it.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think there's a little bit of an acknowledgement of like, well, that was a bad choice. You know that's probably more where I am. But that's what fun money is for you. That's probably more where I am but.
Speaker 2:But that's what fun money is for.
Speaker 1:You know, I feel less bad about experimenting with online supplements, yeah, yeah, with fun money, and then if I do like them, then I you know they get to roll over into family funds and then that's great.
Speaker 2:That is great, you get to offload that cost Exactly and so. But I don't, I don't think, Offload that cost Exactly.
Speaker 1:And so, but I don't, I don't think, I don't know, I don't think there's that, because there have been enough things that I've experimented with and thought, wow, this is amazing that I want to continue taking them or subscribing to them, or whatever.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, that was going to be my next question. Has, has any of them, like, stood the test of time? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I stand by this thing, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, and yeah, so I don't. I don't know. I just it's the weirdest thing, or maybe it's like I am, so I am inconvenienced. I feel annoyed that I'm inconvenienced and now to rectify the inconvenience I have to inconvenience somebody else. Yes, Maybe that's the weird thing that's happening.
Speaker 2:I mean it's also it kind of puts you in the headspace of like a professional business relationship, and you are somebody who has been in many professional business environments before where you have to be quite tactful and you have to show some level of I don't know contrition. I guess Professional contrition is that a thing oh yeah.
Speaker 1:You could be really onto something there.
Speaker 2:If you're in the headspace of this is a professional business, you know arrangement and therefore I need to get into my professional business voice. My professional business voice is very, very kind and very deferential when I need to be, especially when I'm asking for what appears to be a favor, and maybe this is kind of getting into that favor space within your head, you almost feel like you're going to a business partner of yours for a favor for some, for them to help you with something.
Speaker 1:Right, but also giving them the feedback that they suck, that they they did not meet expectations. And so I'm reacting to the you didn't meet expectations bad feeling and also asking for what I need. But I don't want it to be a pile on because, as you said, I mean the people that I'm reaching out to. I don't want to be that customer. You know who's pitching a fit.
Speaker 2:I just and that was going to be my other theory is that you know how many people must come to these folks with absolutely petty, probably very unkind language and disrespectful words and things like that, and you're almost trying to like balance the scales a little bit and be like very, very nice to them. Knowing, especially knowing because you have worked in industries before, where you are the recipient of that information.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think that. I think that makes a lot of sense and it would behoove me to. I mean, I'm not going to be a jerk, but just to just simply ask for what I want or need in this situation. I don't think the salesperson at generic supplement company needs to know why I'm asking to cancel. I just need to.
Speaker 2:I think that goes to my need a little bit more, where I always assume that my opinion of things is more highly regarded than it is, and so I like to give my opinion of things with the understanding that someone is going to want that information. They are going to log that data and that is going to be an important data point for them, so I better give them as much information as possible so that they can then, you know, categorize that.
Speaker 1:And I don't think anyone does that? Well, I think it is a darned if you do, darned if you don't. Sort of thing, because when I have, just when I have been disappointed with a product and I canceled the subscription after it renewed too soon, which was also very annoying to me because that's me- that's a really sad look.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not been great. I think my takeaway is that I need to not subscribe to things Like it's not worth the headache to undo all of this stuff. But when I simply asked, hey, I got to cancel this, or could you please cancel my subscription, they said, oh, why didn't it work out for you? And then I had to give a reason. I mean, I didn't have to give a reason, but I think there was the expectation of giving the reason because they want to talk me out of it. But like, listen, person, you, I already have three of the things and I don't even want the one anymore. So what can we do here?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think, I think you can reframe it as you are just trying to, you know, be as kind and generous of a person with your words, because it takes you probably not that much longer to say those things, but that you can and you have the full ability to, as the client in the situation, to just be incredibly, incredibly direct and, honestly, the person on the other end of that email might be even happier for that, because they can go ding, check, wants to, wants to cancel subscription, and then, like they don't even have to read three or four lines, and they'll be happier because they can move through the process a little bit faster.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, yeah, I, yes, probably it's. I think you are correct in that I get into that business relationship instead of I'm a client. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, you're a very, very good manager and you were a manager for a long time and you probably had to give a lot of feedback in that time and it's not easy to do that and you probably got really good at it at going to this like very specific place in your mind where you're like this is feedback, you know giving time, and you were able to like kind of channel that very specific energy and I think that just like kind of pops out of you like popcorn in a microwave. When you get into these sort of situations you're like, oh, it's feedback time.
Speaker 2:Let me acquire that channel that I'm so good at you know that pathway in my brain that is very well born.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and so maybe I think you're right that the reframe is that it is. It's not, I mean, it's not feedback for the person. Yeah, and so I don't need to take on the personal feelings of getting feedback Right, and also I don't want to be a jerk, because I think there is a great policy in that the good place, and how there are so many repercussions to our actions that cannot be accounted for. So Thank you. Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for a little unpacking. I think we cracked it, watson.
Speaker 2:I think so we can be as as sleuthy on the second round. Let's see yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, this one, I don't know that there is so much an answer, or if it's perplexing, but it's maybe surprising to me. And so, as you know, I started my business in 2023. I started my business in 2023. And at the time when I thought about who I really wanted to work with, the answer was moms and leadership. Because I was a mom, I was a leader. I understand the struggles, I understand everything, the transformation that can happen, and I generally believe that it is fixable, that there are steps that people can take that can help them move to a better place. But since then, it's been really hard to find people in that market, to really market to people in that market, and I think my theory is more along the lines of the idea of adding even just one more thing it's too much. And so, even if it might help in the long term, in the short term, it's too much. It feels like too much. It feels like too much.
Speaker 1:So the reason that my work week got so busy is because I started coaching on this platform, and on the platform you don't really get to pick who coaches with you. You kind of specialize, you state what the specialty is, and so I've had 18 different clients over the last two weeks, which is just. It's so many in it. I'm not I'm. This is not a humble brag, this is just a. It is stretching me in a way that I could not have accounted for and it's just really surprising. So over half of those clients are men and I am loving it and I'm still having kind of this coaching existential thing of like what do I do with this information that all of these really interesting people, all of these really interesting situations that I'm encountering and people that I'm coaching don't fit into this idea of who I thought I could help most.
Speaker 2:That's an interesting distinction, because who you think you can help and who you think you can help most that still might be true Because you are a mom entrepreneur in leadership, you hit the exact demographics of the people you're looking to quote hope help most, and so I think that there is I mean, you've mentioned it earlier about mirror neurons and empathy and relatability to things like you will have more in common with those people who fit those exact same demographics as you and maybe that does give them that like the plus to the A you know to make the A plus in terms of being able to help them most.
Speaker 2:But maybe what's surprising is not the distinction of most or not most. Maybe the distinction is that you have one things to learn from people who don't match that criteria, and then also that you have a lot of relatability and you can help those people, those men in particular, whereas I don't know that you were really factoring them in not just in your target demographic. I don't know that you were really factoring them in not just in your target demographic. I don't know that you were really factoring them in a ton in your business at all, and so that's the real surprise. It's not that they're like overtaking the moms in leadership. It's that they're somebody who you can really help, that you can guide, you can coach, you can bring to a realization or an aha moment or a light bulb that you were not really kind of considering before.
Speaker 1:I think yes to all of that. They weren't really factored in. But when you leave a coaching program, they tell you you can coach anyone, you have the skills to coach and you can apply those skills to any person and help them. And I don't know that I believed it until now. Because now, because I just hadn't tested it, like I had this idea in theory that I could coach anyone, and even I mean I also had a theory that, in terms of executive coaching, that I might really love coaching executives, but that it's a really hard thing to break into. Because, well, because most of the time when people are thinking about executive coaches, they're thinking about old white men who have been executives. They're not thinking about coaching, they're thinking about mentorship or consulting or something else.
Speaker 2:That was a paradigm I had to get past. When you told me that you were working to become a coach, an executive coach or whatever the phrasing that you used, I was like, and I think I might even have asked you this I said how can you do that if you've never done it? And you were like that's not what coaching is?
Speaker 2:I remember you saying that to me, like you clearly don't understand what coaching is. If you think I have to have been an executive to be an executive coach and I definitely did I definitely was like that's who coaches executives is other executives or former executives or whatever, right.
Speaker 1:And sometimes that's the case. I mean certainly I think a lot of executives leave and then they go into and I quote you know, executive coaching, when that's not what they're doing. They're they're mentoring other executives and there are whole businesses that are built on.
Speaker 1:You have to have been a C-suite executive to show up in the space, and I think the more time you've lived on this planet, probably just the more life experience you have. You have more to pull from to bring into coaching hypotheses. But at the same time, that also means you're bringing in more bias, you're bringing in more assumptions, and so you have to work differently, and so I think and so I think, yeah, withiss, if we didn't recognize that the surprise was actually you realizing your expanded capability and what you are truly capable of.
Speaker 2:Expanded capability and what you are truly capable of which. I don't know whether this is true or not, but I wonder if there was part of you that was thinking I need to coach people who are like me because that's where I'm going to be able to do the good, because I know where they have been before. But it's the exact paradigm that you described as not really being true of executives having to coach executives. You coaching moms in leadership. Is you seeking out those people who are most like you and agree, agree, those parallels are a hundred percent drawn and there's so much empathy that you can immediately raise for those folks.
Speaker 2:But I think the surprise is really you saying I, jess, I'm capable of coaching anybody. I can do that Me. I'm a good coach, I know what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you're totally right.
Speaker 1:I think when I initially set out, it was because that was comfortable in some ways, which maybe this was the universe's way of, maybe because I didn't build this huge roster of moms and leadership who wanted to coach with me. Maybe that was the universe's way of being like no, no, you're not done yet, you need to keep working. I think the other thing that is really surprising well, kind of two things that are really surprising. The first is the ahas that all of these men are having, and so one of my clients today we were talking and he's a brand new client and he came in saying he wants to look for a job that's more fulfilling as kind of the, the presenting issue, and in our conversation he had this brilliant aha that the reason he's so stressed and his job that is not challenging for him is because he can't be himself and because he has to wear a mask, you know, not a literal, mask, but a figurative mask up to all of the people who are above him in the company.
Speaker 1:It adds stress to his life.
Speaker 2:And and therefore lowers the fulfillment that he feels in his job.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly, and so he was kind of dreaming a little bit about what an ideal thing would look like and he said I realized I want less of a work life divide. I want to bring more of myself into my job and I can't. I feel like I can't do that in this job because I have to wear this mask all the time and it's just like I don't know. I mean, he's exceptional, he's awesome, but I'm thinking, wow, that feels so profound and I don't think I have witnessed many men in my life with that level of introspection.
Speaker 1:And so that too, and like kind of shame on me for assuming that my male clients would have less emotional intelligence, but I think the effects of society on men really kind of push them to push the emotions away, and so I think I hadn't even considered working with many men because I was like I want to. I want a baseline level of emotional intelligence and emotional connectedness and I just feel like I'm going to get that more and be able to do more with that in the female population.
Speaker 2:And now that's a totally reasonable assumption though, but it's so easy to see how you got there and how you wanted to get there, because your whole thing about connecting with people is connecting deeply quickly, like that's what you like to do. You like to get to the heart of who a person is quite quickly, and it requires some amount of unguardedness with a relative stranger, a total stranger.
Speaker 1:I have. 45 minutes is the amount of time that I am I have to do this in in a single session is right, 45 minutes, and hopefully, you know, we have a longer relationship over time, and so that is also something that I'm really jazzed about, where I just feel like I can feel my coaching skills increasing and my capacity increasing.
Speaker 1:On top of highlighting these kind of assumptions, that I've been carrying with me that I guess I kind of knew I was aware of them. I mean choosing to work with moms and leadership. That was an intentional thing, but I guess I just feel, I don't know like it's exposing me in a really weird way.
Speaker 2:I think you just said it. Underneath there is you said there's a comfort in dealing with people who are like you, and what this is doing is sharpening you. It's the opposite of being comfortable to you. It's honing and literally like defining those pieces of you that are going to make you a better coach for everybody, not just for one demographic or the other. Looking at and engaging with and connecting on a coach level with people who are very, very, very different than you is going to sharpen you much more and much more quickly than working with people who are like you all the time.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think that is absolutely true and I am feeling that sharpening. I think I am also surprised, and maybe because I was telling myself this story of men are not going to take me seriously. So, why would I bother working with men oh?
Speaker 2:man, I love all these assumptions that are being challenged. I love this.
Speaker 1:And so here I am, and I'm showing up exactly as myself and realizing that who I am is so much more multifaceted than I was giving myself credit for and who they are is so much more multifaceted than I was giving myself credit for and who?
Speaker 1:they are so much more multifaceted and I am finding so many things in common with my male clients that I'm like that is just like me. You're so relatable and it's like I don't know if my mind were gemstone and all of the facets. Like I've been focusing on the big facets of my identity as mom, my identity as a woman, as a leader, as all of that kind of unconsciously, and now I'm having all of these different aspects of relatability to connect and to make sense of and to be on the same page and like that communication thing that we talked about last week or the week before, where all I mean communication is just really hard but because there's so much sense making in a coaching call it is helping me make sense of the world in a different way, and it is also helping them make sense of the world.
Speaker 1:So it's like this mutual sharpening that's happening, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's so, so great and so inspiring to me to probably anybody to say when you step outside, I mean it's like a universal truth when you step outside your comfort zone, you get stronger, you grow, you change, you increase your capacity or whatever the case may be, and I just I love that assumptions that you made about yourself you're finding to be bogus and that that humans are humans and right, and especially the one about you, about men not taking you seriously yeah, yeah, that's so weird.
Speaker 1:I did seriously did not realize that before it came out of my mouth that that was maybe something, that was a play, but if it doesn't come from nowhere, it doesn't come from nowhere.
Speaker 2:There's, there are places, there are experiences, there are things that have happened in your work history in particular, that have it was that you know. Show me, don't tell me kind of situation. Maybe nobody said, jess, I don't take you seriously because you are a pretty girl, you know, so maybe consider that in the future. Nobody said that that I am aware of, but they might have showed that to you.
Speaker 1:You did have that one boss.
Speaker 2:Maybe I took that from his exact playbook, but but yeah, like especially. I mean you're many, many years removed from that situation and you are a force, and I think people recognize a force when they see one, regardless of the package it comes in.
Speaker 1:I'm just wondering now, what do I do with this? I mean, I think maybe I don't have to do anything with it right now, but because I know that I'm going to be kind of in this busyness for another two and a half or three months, but beyond that, I mean, what do I do with that knowledge?
Speaker 2:With the assumption that sharpening your skills in working with a variety of clients will still sharpen your skills for working with your target demographic. True, and so like. It doesn't necessarily mean you need to change anything, and I personally don't think you should change anything just yet. I think you spend more time in the sharpening stage and then, once you're the blade that you want to be, then you start making decisions about who and what and all of that kinds of stuff. But when you're in the sharpening stage, you're just going to get better overall and you're going to get better for everybody, not just the ones that don't fit or do fit or anything like that. You're, you're, you're working on you as a coach at this stage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really good perspective. I when you said when you're the blade you want to be, and I was reminded that all of the different blades that we use in the kitchen used to start off as a chef's knife that's right. And then, just as they were honed down, they adopted different purposes, and so I'm thinking I love a sharp kitchen knife. I do.
Speaker 2:I really do.
Speaker 1:But it's got me thinking you know what? What kind of blade do I want to be and what is most energizing? So I made a little check-in thing that I could fill every day how energized are you feeling? How many clients did you coach? Just to kind of collect data as I'm going along, because I think this time of busyness I could very easily lose sight of the growth and lose sight of all of that.
Speaker 1:So I am going to be intentional with that aspect of it, but it does have me wondering what kind of blade I want to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can be a paring knife or a bread knife or a big old. What are those choppy knives that, like Japanese sushi chefs use and stuff? It can be a paring knife or a bread knife or a big old. What do they call those Choppy knives that, like Japanese sushi chefs use and stuff? It's like square, almost, or like rectangular, like those huge. Sometimes they use two of them at the same time.
Speaker 1:It's crazy. I mean, people are very talented with their knife work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am not. I pretty much just use the smallest one available to me for everything.
Speaker 1:You and my mother-in-law.
Speaker 2:If it's an eggplant or if it's a cucumber, it's getting the same treatment.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I think I mostly reach for my Henkel Santoku not sponsored but open to sponsorship Henkels.
Speaker 2:look us up, man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, be happy to have that conversation oh well, thank you for allowing me the space to kind of expose some of those limiting beliefs that I had about both myself and the world and potential clients, and I love an exposed, limiting belief.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so much better than a hidden one, it's true, it's true? Well, of course, I loved our snack and our main course in this unpacking episode. So, thank you, thank you. Well, I will check you very soon. Yeah, bye everyone Bye. I'll be back next time. Hey, it's jess and lisa. We've got stories to share from our hearts to your ears. Lots to unpack there.
Speaker 1:Tune in every week you won't want to miss. Dive deep into life with jess and lisa tune in every week you won't wanna miss.
Speaker 2:Dive deep into life with jess and lisa. You know AJR. I do know AJR. Do you know, ajr I?
Speaker 1:do know AJR.
Speaker 2:Why do you know it I?
Speaker 1:guess is my question. I think that is the more surprising thing it is. I think that is the more surprising thing it is.
Speaker 2:Normally I'm surprised that people know the things that I know, because the number of things I don't know is just so big, well, especially in certain categories, but I would say, the things you know are also it's a very, very large category of things that you know in a surprisingly proficient way, category of things that you know in a surprisingly proficient way. So tell me why you know AJR when you don't seem to know any other musical references from the last 15 years, right?
Speaker 1:Well, that's not true. I have Vampire Weekend.
Speaker 2:That definitely predates 15 years ago, darn it.
Speaker 1:Good try though, good try, okay. So I know AJR because my brother and his family love AJR and they were out here visiting and they are just completely beside themselves in my silent car.
Speaker 2:So they went with very loud, very in your face beats.
Speaker 1:And I didn't even receive it that way. It was very, I don't know, it was very cool.
Speaker 2:It is very cool, I agree.
Speaker 1:They're coming to Merriweather, so really, really, when is that happening?
Speaker 2:I think in June, and I would be very happy to go see them with you, if you want to. Hey, I guess we'll have to we them with you, if you want to, okay.
Speaker 1:Well, I guess we'll have to. We'll have to talk about that a little bit more. So, yeah, I I really enjoyed their music. I would put it kind of it reminds me a little bit of postal service and in that kind of.
Speaker 2:I think if you put postal service and panic at the disco together you would kind of get an AJR sound a little bit. I would not be surprised if those were influences.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I also enjoy Panic at the Disco.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's like more than 15 years ago, so that's good, I'm still Less than 15 years ago, I listened to Panic at the Disco in like 2020. To now, that's only five years.
Speaker 1:That's what I'm saying I misspoke initially.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, okay, less than 15 years ago. You're putting me wrong. Okay, okay.
