Lots to Unpack There
We’re Jess and Lisa, two best friends in our 40s living in Maryland. This podcast is about life, motherhood, leadership, and everything in between. We’re navigating the “messy middle” of personal and professional life and have learned that having someone who just gets it makes the journey less hard.
Each week, we’ll share something real from our own lives and unpack it together in real time. Our hope is that as we process and reflect, it’ll inspire and help you do the same—wherever you are.
Lots to Unpack There
The Learning and the Restless
Have you ever felt simultaneously overwhelmed with work yet creatively restless? That bizarre contradiction sits at the heart of this week's conversation as Jess unpacks her experience of being caught in a sprint toward professional goals while feeling the creative itch that comes from a backlog of unprocessed insights.
We dive into the fascinating concept of mental libraries—how we collect experiences and knowledge like books that need proper shelving in our minds. When we're racing toward milestones, those books pile up faster than we can organize them, creating a tension between accomplishment and integration. Jess shares her realization that working "in" her coaching business has temporarily prevented her from working "on" her business, sparking an interesting exploration of how we balance learning and doing.
The conversation expands into a deeper examination of two distinct types of learning: theoretical collection versus practical application. That restless feeling many of us experience? It might simply be the signal that your pendulum has swung too far in one direction. Whether you're completing certification hours, launching a project, or managing massive change, understanding this tension helps recognize when restlessness signals a need for balance rather than a problem requiring solution. We also touch on how transitions in life—whether chosen or unexpected—provide rare opportunities to rediscover aspects of ourselves that we've placed "high on the shelf" during certain phases of our careers.
Join us for an illuminating conversation about mastering your relationship with time, honoring the creative restlessness that fuels growth, and finding ways to integrate learning amid achievement. What parts of yourself have you set aside that might be asking to return to the forefront?
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Hey, it's Jess and Lisa.
Speaker 2:We've got stories to share From our hearts to your ears. Lots to unpack there. Tune in every week you won't want to miss.
Speaker 1:Dive deep into life with Jess and Lisa. We're Jess and Lisa, two best friends in our forties living in Maryland. This podcast is about life, motherhood, leadership and everything in between.
Speaker 2:We're navigating the messy middle of personal and professional life and have learned that having someone along the way who just gets it makes the journey less hard.
Speaker 1:So each week, we'll share something from our own lives and unpack it together in real time. Our hope is that, as we process and reflect, it'll inspire you to do the same wherever you are. Hi, alisa, hi, hi.
Speaker 2:Jess, how are you? I'm so good, pretty good, your words said good, but then your face, one of those things where you answer before you actually think about it and then you're like, oh wait, I got to do the top to bottom, am I good? Which you don't do for everybody, right? You're not going to do the body scan for everyone For some people. You're going to say whatever comes out of your mouth and that's going to be it. Scan for everyone For some people. You're going to say whatever comes out of your mouth and that's going to be it. That's true, like moms at drop-off, I just don't talk to moms at drop-off, wow, okay. Well, teachers at drop-off, maybe Every single day they're going to ask you how are you? And you're going to say I'm good, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I think I was built differently because I'm like, eh, it's been a morning, you go for like the honest answer every time I really do. It's tough because it depends on the situation and how appropriate it is for me to answer honestly, because if I'm in a client conversation, for example, and they ask me, how are you, I'm probably going to say things over here are fine, because I don't want the conversation to be about me.
Speaker 1:I want it to be about them and what they have going on Totally. You don't want to pull focus Exactly, but I mean, I think I'll answer honestly with I'm doing okay, or I'm great, it's been a great day or a great week or whatever, and then just we move on. I don't think anybody at drop-off asks me how I'm doing, though. It's like we now knock on the classroom door and I hand my son his little lunch pail, his lunchbox and his water bottle and he takes them and puts them in his cubby and he's gone, and that's wow that's a that's a smooth transition yeah, today I waited because I just had a feeling he was going to come back and get another snug little nuzzle.
Speaker 2:But and he did and he did, so I was glad for it, and then he was gone wow, yeah, I have to um often sit with my three-year-old at drop-off and watch her eat breakfast Not all of it, I'll stay for a few bites but then she gets distracted and I'm like, okay, I think you're good. And she's like, yeah, all right, fine. But then she goes to the door to let me out. She wants to facilitate my exit. You have a little escort, yeah. And then she stands there and she says I will wait. And then she's waiting for my eight-year-old to come and dismiss her from the door, because their classrooms the before care classroom and her classroom are right next to each other. So then she waits for him to come give her a hug, and then she goes into her classroom and he goes back into before. It's like a whole ritual that we have, wow.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's so interesting how those rituals come about. Oh yeah, I've noticed at bedtime it's kind of a new one. When my youngest moved into his big boy bed, everything that we did when he was in his crib was just gone, right.
Speaker 2:And we had to start fresh like straight straight Right.
Speaker 1:Exactly so we sit there and we read a book and then he'll say, okay, I have to go say goodnight to my girls. I'll say okay. So he runs and he says girls, like call right the word girls. And then they, they give him hugs and of course he wants to see whatever it is they're doing in their bed.
Speaker 2:Right, and that's a great point of distraction where he could maybe subvert the entire bedtime process Totally, totally.
Speaker 1:And so then I say okay, bud come on back.
Speaker 2:It's time to climb to bed and he wants to reel this back in.
Speaker 1:Big snuggle and he wants a nuzzle. And then he grabs both sides of my face and pulls it to him and gives me a big old smooch. And then he says I want daddy to say goodnight. And then daddy comes in and says goodnight and that's it. It's so. I mean it's great, but it has become very ritualized.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. It used to be, when we just had the bigs, so my eight-year-old and my five-year-old that every time the little one would go to bed she was probably about two at the time she would say goodnight to her brother on the stairs and they would kiss through the handle of the what is it called, like the railing of the stairs, the baluster, yeah. So they would kiss all the way up until he couldn't quite reach her anymore and then she would walk the rest of the way by herself. Oh my goodness, that's adorable. And then she would get to the top and we have a catwalk and she would stick her foot out the slats of the catwalk and we would have to, like, say goodnight to her foot from below.
Speaker 1:That's so funny Kids are so funny. They're so funny. Kids are so funny there's so you had a whole von trapp thing going on. I mean they're basically just so long farewelling, yes, all the way up the stairs but now, now there's none of that.
Speaker 2:Now it's everyone goes to bed at the same time. I'm not interested in any of those things, I'm just like everyone to your beds. Especially the big two can. Pretty much they can. They're capable of getting ready for bed with themselves. Yeah, they don't always, but they are capable. They know exactly the steps they need to take Right.
Speaker 1:We do have to do quite a bit of reminding still to make sure that everything gets done, but for the most part the bigs are brushing their own teeth and I'm checking them, yeah.
Speaker 2:I always have to ask.
Speaker 1:That's the trick there. It really is. There was a time where they were just not doing a very good job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I have a lot of phone in and in teeth wise, yes.
Speaker 1:So we have to remind about flossing and all of those things.
Speaker 2:I'm guessing you guys are about 100% better about all that kind of stuff than we are.
Speaker 1:My husband is very diligent with his oral hygiene and so I have learned to be better. Because it is the right thing? Oh, totally. But it goes back to what we have talked about so many times here, where things that were just not really modeled for us. I mean my parents, I don't. I do not remember a time when they brushed my teeth for me, and I'm sure it happened. I'm sure it happened, but from my earliest memories of maybe four on, I always brushed my own teeth.
Speaker 2:And it was.
Speaker 1:I don't think that they-.
Speaker 2:I think these are the perils of having four children, though a little bit.
Speaker 1:Well, at that time there were only two of us. Oh wow, I'm so I'm not sure. I just it just wasn't I don't know. I mean, they took us to the dentist, so we had those things, but I just don't remember there being a really big emphasis on it, especially not flossing. Yeah, and flossing is basically more important than brushing, honestly.
Speaker 2:Well, I will say I am still very derelict in my flossing requirements to this day. I mean we could go on and on about Lisa's dental issues, both mental and physical. Right, right, right.
Speaker 1:My relationship with time, your relationship with your mouth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, we could dedicate an entire episode, or maybe a month's worth. I had the opposite. I remember my mom brushing my teeth and I know that time and that I was in middle school. That's how important she found it to be, and she's right. She's right, it is that important. Yeah, and.
Speaker 2:I probably wasn't doing a spectacular job and she was like no, no, I am not going to put the level of responsibility on you that you clearly can't handle. Because I am not going to put the level of responsibility on you that you clearly can't handle because truly and I've talked to my kids about this taking care of your teeth is truly a very important responsibility that you get at a very, very early age. You lose your baby teeth and you get your grownup teeth at what like five, six, seven in that range, early elementary school, and they're not really capable of handling that level of responsibility.
Speaker 1:Now that you mentioned that, I do remember my mom being a little more involved. She would check my teeth, she would check them sometimes.
Speaker 2:But like what can you really? How can you really check Other than like? But like what can you really? How can you really check Other than like? There's literal stuff in your teeth that you can see Like how do you know if it's been adequately?
Speaker 1:taken care of, right. I make them look up to the light and then I see if there's film on their teeth still.
Speaker 2:Wow, that is. I'm surprised you don't get like like spray, like black light illuminating.
Speaker 1:We have the tablets, but they're not very good. Talking about your mom reminded me that my mom also had those tablets, and so there must have been some emphasis at some point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Wow, who knew we were going to go on a deep dive on oral hygiene. I love it. It's very important. Psa to all the listeners. Oral hygiene very important. Be like Jess, don't be like Lisa.
Speaker 1:And then if you are a parent with your children, maybe be somewhere between us because, as we're finding out, dereliction of duty does not.
Speaker 2:It's inversely correlated with later term hygiene, at least in the sample size of two.
Speaker 1:So far, yes, exactly I'm thinking you yeah, okay, what a trip.
Speaker 2:I know, but it's been a while since we got to do this and I'm just excited to see you and I'm excited to unpack and talk about stuff and, I don't know, bring more, hopefully, interesting and thoughtful discussion to our listeners.
Speaker 1:So I right. And to them they they don't know that we have not talked for three weeks. They do not. For them, it's like when we leave each other polos and we are gone for hours, but then the next person shares it. You know Exactly.
Speaker 2:Back to back, back to back. Yeah, yes, exactly. But we do have lots of things going on in our lives and I know I want to hear about you and what you're unpacking.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, so it came to me kind of earlier today and it is related to the kind of perennial issue of me and time and it's Thursday today, but the week has gone by so fast, so fast, and we've talked about in previous episodes how that phenomenon of going zero to 60.
Speaker 1:And I've had some ahas around that over the last couple of weeks. So one of them is that I've gone kind of zero to 60 in my busyness of my workday and I think at this point I've kind of acclimated. I don't feel like I'm accelerating anymore and I'm also still not used to it, and so I keep waiting. For I don't know. I appreciate all of my clients I really do, and when they cancel I'm not mad about it, right, because it gives me a chance to breathe and I don't want to be in that space. And so that was one of the ahas was as I was talking to my husband about it, I said you know, I am feeling like this is maybe a little bit more normal and also I don't want it to feel normal.
Speaker 2:I was going to ask that you had said that you were acclimating to it and I was thinking in my head do you want to acclimate to it, Do you want?
Speaker 1:this to be your normal? I don't really want to. No, I really don't want to. And it's fascinating because I'm working towards this goal of 500 coaching hours, which I am scheduled to meet in June, which is very exciting, because last year, when I got the first level certification, I said I want to do this in the next year and I didn't really have a firm plan on how to do that and so it was kind of hope and a prayer and just keep working and trying to get there.
Speaker 1:And it wasn't until I started coaching with this platform that the last hundred hours are really kind of coming in. But it also means that I'm coaching more hours a week than I would like to. So, yeah, no, I don't want to acclimate to it. I think when I look at my coaching log and I see how many hours I've coached this year, I don't want to miss the journey for the destination and I'm kind of like, wow, that's maybe how many hours I want to coach per year and I'm doing it in the first six months. So it's, I'm starting to think about what I want that cadence to be, but I know it's. It's somewhat less than where I am right now.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, you don't want to be so busy that you can't enjoy the process and you can't. I think the work that you do requires so much of you, and so not only is it a job job like it's a job you do a thing, you get paid for it, like okay, that's that, but it also is a job that is a vocation that takes from you mentally and emotionally.
Speaker 2:Yes and it. Yeah. You are a very empathetic person, so that comes very naturally to you, but it still draws from you and you have to pour into it in a way that I don't think every vocation requires to that level.
Speaker 1:Perhaps it's interesting that you say I'm an empathetic person. I think in the I would agree that I have empathy. It's also something that I've struggled with a lot in where I, where I am today. I think now I have empathy, but it was hard for me to understand because I was so hyper rational. I was like these emotion things, I just don't understand them, which is just so weird now that I deal so much in the emotion space and have so much more granularity in what my own emotional experience is. But yeah, I do agree with you that this role requires me to pour in to other people and to really hold space, and I've gotten much better at separating myself from that, so that I'm holding space for the emotion but I'm not taking on the emotion. I think that's an important distinction?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. And if it's not something that comes naturally, it's something that, if you want longevity in this type of career, you have to figure out. A way Same as counseling, like you have to figure out a way to separate yourself and not take on those things, or else you'll be buried.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, it becomes it's too much to carry and so that's kind of that goes back to that non-attachment that we talked about maybe last time or the time before. I'm also noticing that there's this restlessness that's happening in me right now that I think is related and I don't really know. I was trying to describe it to a friend earlier today. Know, I was trying to describe it to a friend earlier today where, if you've ever seen those Instagram reels with polymer clay where the artist is like taking all of the scraps of polymer clay and like mixing them together and creating something new, that's kind of what I feel like is happening right now. But because I am intentionally focusing on the coaching hours as in service to this bigger goal, I mean truly like means to an end, to some degree.
Speaker 1:To some degree. There's so much learning that's happening and I know that I'm going to have to give myself a lot more time to continue integrating that learning as we go, and probably space too.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that's what the time means. It means that you get holes in which you can kind of fall down in this learning space, and actually I don't know. I think there's we've talked about it privately but the idea of the library and like putting things into your personal library, and what does that take for each individual person too? No-transcript, I don't know. Accumulate or absorb what you've recently gone through or learned.
Speaker 1:And the mental library that you're talking about is how I think, about my brain and how I catalog things, where I see it as a series of bookshelves, and I don't think that that would work necessarily for everyone, but that's how I see it is in the learning process. I'm amassing piles of books. Yes, see, it is in the learning process. I'm amassing piles of books and then in the integration process, I'm figuring out where they go and how they fit and if I need to build new shelves. And that's why learning something that's brand new is so much more energy intensive, because I'm having to build an entirely new bookshelf and I remember in my master's program I was learning something that was really really so new and it wasn't even in a bookshelf shape.
Speaker 1:It was like a giant beanbag that was just in the middle of the space. I'm like, well, what the heck do I do with this thing? So it is, yes, that is the time and space, and so what I'm doing right now is I'm having to be really intentional about having that reflective time, but it just comes in tiny little bits, and so it's like, instead of taking an afternoon to really observe what are all of the books that are there, what are some of the themes? Where might I like to put them? Am I color coding or am I sorting by topic, like all of those sorts of things.
Speaker 2:It's such a luxury, the idea of just like the sitting and the thinking and the contemplating.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh yes. Right now it's like ooh, jay, I'll put it over here, on the other shelf with the Js, there's no Dewey Decimal System right now. It's just getting piled, it's like, very quickly, I am still integrating. I can feel that, and I am still integrating. I can feel that and I am not integrating at the rate in which I'm learning, and so it's getting a little bit soupy again, it can feel like it's kind of getting on top of you a bit in the same way that when your house, like when your kitchen's messed up, you're like, okay, my kitchen's messed up.
Speaker 2:And then as the day progresses usually a Saturday or Sunday and then it's the living room and the playroom and the dining room and it starts to get on top of you in a way that you're like I'm going to have to stop everything at some point, kick the children outside and tackle this one room at a time, because otherwise it's just going to continue to pile on top of me.
Speaker 1:Exactly. It's like trying to clean up the playroom when the children are actively playing.
Speaker 2:Right, we've all made that mistake once or twice.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, ooh, there are so many side tangents there that we could go on, which is that sometimes getting my kids to clean up is the way that play starts, but that's beside the point. So, anyway, because these things are starting to pile up a little bit, I see that as my cutting room floor, and what I would normally do is take the things that are on the cutting room floor and I would stick them together and reimagine what they could be and engage that creative process and maybe put that back into my business or some other way. And right now that isn't really happening. And so yesterday I was coaching a client who there was so much resonance it was like sitting across the screen from myself.
Speaker 2:Wow, and she was describing oh it was so trippy.
Speaker 1:She was describing this restlessness that she's feeling about this. You know, she wants to move on to something new. She feels like she's learned everything where she is right now. And I'm like, oh okay, this pattern is familiar to me. And I looked at her and I said are you bored? And she said, oh my God, I am bored. And it was this brilliant aha for her and her restlessness is feeling that way. I am also feeling restless, but I know that I haven't learned everything yet. So it's different and that's what sent me down this thought path of what is my restlessness? And I think it's that the things that are on the cutting room floor. I can't create with them right now because I am prioritizing these other things and I'm not really sure what to do with that. So that's where I'm at today.
Speaker 2:It sounds like you're caught between these two spaces, which, luckily, it sounds like there's a very clear end point to the situation that you're currently in, which is lots of work and no accumulation. No, you have accumulation. You're not being able to integrate. I think that's the word I kind of come back to is the integration and what that means to you. What I gather is the building those pieces into back into yourself, which is into your business itself. So right now, you're doing all of the businessy things without built, without the creative part of the building of the business which you really, really, really love to do. You love the coaching too, but you're in this space of like must get, it feels very robotic and sort of dispassionate, whereas when you're integrating those learnings, you are getting to the core and the passion of what you love to do, and so you're kind of having to put that on hold for the moment.
Speaker 1:I think you're right To some extent. I think you're right that there are two levels of integration which I hadn't thought about until now. There's the internal integration, which is what am I learning about who I am as a coach, what am I learning about my clients, what things are working or not working and what shelf am I going to put those things on? That's the internal integration.
Speaker 1:And then there's the external integration, which is integrating those. It's like meta integration, integrating those learnings and that like snapshot of the bookshelf and then feeding that back into the business to iterate and to come up with different offerings. And you are correct that that is the piece that is not happening right now.
Speaker 2:And is really energizing to you. I think you do get energy from your clients, but the building and the creativity and the process of really deciding what you're offering to other people, like what are you able to bring to your clients, is really super energizing to you.
Speaker 1:Right, it's that pause button where it feels like a lot of things are on pause on the business front. I can't really work on the business because I'm working in the business right now.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's what it is. Can't work on it because you're working in it. Yes, that's exactly what it is.
Speaker 1:And so I know to something you said earlier it is short-lived.
Speaker 2:I have six more weeks of this if that, and that's going to go by in a flash, if weeks happen the way that this week has happened so far.
Speaker 1:It absolutely will. It'll be here before I know it, and so I think my challenge is also making sure that I slow down so that, to the extent that I can integrate the internal integration, that I'm able to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what a funny feeling, though and I completely identify with this as well, and we've talked about this before, and I completely identify with this as well, and we've talked about this before the idea of being stupid, busy and restless at the same time. Right Like what a weird dichotomy of things to feel simultaneously.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it really is, and I think it is because maybe there's a different word for it other than restless, right, but it's different than the restlessness of boredom. Yes, it is, I don't know. It's a restlessness of something else, a restlessness of restraint, constraint. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:We talked about this before constraint, constraint. Yeah, I mean, we talked about this before we were talking about it in the context of learning and how me as the program manager.
Speaker 2:I was learning so much about the business, about my team, about being a people manager. I was learning all of this stuff and yet I was craving learning, right, and you broke that down into the two different types of learning, and how one is I don't know. Maybe you should explain it, because I'm not going to explain it very well, but the two types of learning one is going to feed you and one is going to exhaust you, and that is kind of what I was experiencing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't remember this conversation of the two types of learning. And now I'm you don't. Oh, it was so good. I'm like racking my brain about it now. I do vaguely remember this conversation that we had.
Speaker 2:It was when we were at the Ellicott City Tavern place and when we had our girls night, but it was just the two of us.
Speaker 1:That wasn't that long ago.
Speaker 2:No, it really wasn't. It was like two months ago.
Speaker 1:I remember so many other things during that conversation. I mean it was a great conversation.
Speaker 2:It was. It was a long conversation. It was a transformative conversation, but that was one of the things that you talked about. It was someone else's. I don't know whether it was a paper that they wrote or something.
Speaker 1:Oh, the thing that matters most is that it resonated with you and oh, oh, oh oh, it was your explanation because I kept seeking out these novel learning experiences and you were like that's because.
Speaker 2:And then you kind of broke it down and I was like what?
Speaker 1:Right, right, right. So the two types of learning that we talked about in that conversation were learning in theory and learning in action. There you go, and so this idea of learning in theory is when you are collecting the books, you're stacking them up, yep, and then the learning in action is when you are integrating and you're doing those things, and so that's why I think experiential learning is so brilliant, because it gives you this opportunity to immediately integrate the learning and to make deeper meaning of it.
Speaker 2:And, yes, that makes total sense and I think it's a really powerful reframe for what I'm experiencing right now, but that's exactly how I was feeling a few months ago when I was cold calling House of Color in order to see if I could become a color analyst with them. I was so busy. I'm seeking out PhD programs. I'm doing everything that I can to try to bring in this knowledge, and yet I'm so mentally overwhelmed with the job that I'm doing everything that I can to try to bring in this knowledge, and yet I'm so mentally overwhelmed with the job that I'm already doing time-wise and the meeting fatigue and all of that going on, and yet I'm craving this deeper knowledge that fills some other bucket in me.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting to think about that in the context of our values, and I did a polarity worksheet on this and those were the two poles that I used, which is probably why it was so fresh in my mind, and maybe it's that restlessness is the itching to switch between the two. Like that's the indication that you have to pull back. You have to pull back.
Speaker 1:And so, in the context in my client's situation, where she's feeling restless because she's learned all of the things, she is fully over in learning in action, up in the benefits of that, yeah, and she's itching to get back into learning and theory which I think is probably also that would describe you, and I'm over here in this learning and theory thing and I'm itching to go back the other way, and so the restlessness is, like it's the thing, the signal that the pendulum needs to swing back a little bit Exactly.
Speaker 2:There needs to be a little bit more in the middle, or maybe it's not. Maybe some people don't need to be in the middle between the two types of learning. Maybe people just need extremes, one and then the other, depending on who you are. I don't know. I love learning in every possible regard. I will take it no matter how it comes to me. But I think when you do sense that restlessness or when you do sense that disquiet, discomfort, whatever that is, however, you feel that in your body and I can feel it in my body right now, even though I'm not in the situation, I can remember feeling that way of like needing some other type of learning that fills some other type of who I am to feel complete.
Speaker 1:I think you just hit on something really key, which is that all of these things there are different aspects of who we are in which we can seek this. It's why, when I was feeling restless at work and I was like, dang, I just need to grow somehow, I decided to go back to school. Yeah, because even though that was only it was work related and I thought it would help me be a better manager, and I absolutely think that it did. It was the impetus, for it was so that I could continue growing.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:As people, we want to grow, and when we're I don't know, maybe when we're in a period of high growth, we also feel this need to slow down, yeah, like we need to fill in the scaffolding or we need to reinforce the growth that has happened. And that's where balancing those two things come together.
Speaker 2:I think it's kind of like you know I'm not like this, but I know lots of people who are. You know, they look around their house and they see something that they want to upgrade or change or remodel and like there's constant like looking around, what else can I do, what else can I do, where else can I improve this? And in my house that they want to upgrade or change or remodel and there's constant looking around okay, what else can I do? What else can I do, where else can I improve this? And in my house I have nothing but projects. Right In my mental learning house, I have nothing but projects. I have my next two graduate programs lined up in my mind.
Speaker 2:I want to get my PhD and then I want to get my MBA. Like I literally have decades worth of learning backlog ready to tackle and that's, you know, not so dissimilar to when you look around your house and you're like all right, first we're going to start with the kitchen. We're going to get those cupboards painted because they look old, Then we're going to move on to the shell shaped sink upstairs in the master bath, you know, and you're kind of doing all of those processes in your head.
Speaker 1:So Yep, yep. So I'm not sure what I still need to unpack about this. I think it's really helpful for me to think about it in terms of this learning polarity and also remind myself that it is temporary.
Speaker 2:I think that's the key. I think that's really the key is that you are working towards a very specific goal and you have had this goal for a while and you're going to check it off.
Speaker 2:You are going to take this year plus long goal and check it off, and that's going to feel amazing and all of the effort that you have put into, especially in the last, like three months, all of the effort, this sprint towards the finish line that you're going towards. You're going to cross the finish line and then you're going to get a moment of reflection and by a moment I mean like a week or two.
Speaker 2:Please Take the time that you need to go first of all, like whoosh, you know, like, do that, and then you're going to get the moments that you need to build these bookshelves and put these books back on. You are going to get that time build these bookshelves and put these books back on. You are going to get that time, and the fact that you already have that in mind for that time is great because you know the process right. You're going to sprint, you're going to cross the finish line and take a big drink of water sit and then you get all these Ikea bookshelves that you get to put together I think it will probably be like sprint finish line walk for a long time, uh-huh to cool down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's that walking, that walking period that will probably take me through the end of the summer, I'm imagining. Yeah, yeah, but we'll see. We'll see how it goes.
Speaker 2:When you go for a run, everyone knows the cool down walk is by far and away the best part.
Speaker 1:And it's one of the most important parts.
Speaker 2:It is the most incredible feeling, because you're like I did it. I did the run and now I get the juicy reward of just slowing my pace and walking and looking around me and not feeling like I'm going to my lungs are going to explode or something. Okay, this says a lot about my you know running habit.
Speaker 1:I was just thinking about that. It's been I haven't run for a long time and and I'm trying to remember that that there are some runs where I don't give myself that time for the cool-down walk. I mean, I do slow my pace a little bit but I don't do a full cool-down and I'm always more sore the next day when I don't have that versus when I do a proper cool-down and stretch. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, now I want to go for a run.
Speaker 1:Just not outside. It was so colony.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did go for a walk earlier today. It was very lovely, but I haven't been outside since. Yeah, well, I hope that you I don't know. I hope that this does give you some kind of peace about what you're in and what's next and how that mountain of books is going to get taken care of, it's going to get sorted through, you're going to get your system and you're going to be a better coach after that.
Speaker 1:I hope you are correct, and I suspect you are correct. I already feel of course you have a knack for it. I can often even now, I think, and we talked about it last time or a couple times ago that feeling of being stretched and I can feel it that I have so much more confidence as a coach. I have, I mean, I don't think I have too much confidence as a coach.
Speaker 2:I think I have an appropriate level of confidence I'm good at this. I'm a couple years in. I got some chops, yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, and just this keen awareness of not wanting to miss the things to slow down. That's really what it is. It's the desire to slow time down so that I can put as many of those books away now before the backlog gets too big.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I mean, as we've talked about, you're in charge of that clock.
Speaker 1:I know, so maybe it's a reminder to myself to slow down, even though time is going really quickly.
Speaker 2:Yep, you're the only person that can do that. We are all the only people that can do that to make those choices, and we don't feel like we have the power right, like all of those external things in our lives. I mean, there's hundreds of external pieces of our lives that dictate time, and yet we are the ones who hold the clock and get to decide. Now, we can't change the 24 hours in a day. We can't change 365 days in a year. We can't do any of that. But how we spend those 24 hours is truly up to us and it almost never feels like we have the control that we actually do.
Speaker 2:This paradigm of, oh, I have to do this or this is required of me. Most of those things, if you break them down to the component pieces, required of me, most of those things, if you break them down to the component pieces, probably are not as controlling as we let them be in our lives. And so taking that control of our clock, I don't know. I was accused yesterday of manipulating time or something like that in one of my interviews because I was describing all of the things that I do and he was like, oh so you were a warlock over time or something like that, and I was like, I don't know, maybe I am to some degree, because I do take a lot of ownership of my time, and maybe this is one of my superpowers that I have, is that I am very mindful of my time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it gets. The choice is what you spend your time doing, and also there may be a choice in perception of time. Yeah, and for you, being really intentional with what you're going to spend your time on certainly gives you a greater measure of control. Yeah, and it's like leaning in, and when you are focused on those things, you can achieve more because you have less distraction from all of the other noise.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's one of the like, maybe not consciously, but subconsciously. One of the goals of life for many people certainly for me is like to be much, to be a master over my time. And I think you really you do learn this a lot in the corporate space, because everyone will take your time if you let them Everyone, everyone and everything. And so you really realize, especially as you get into leadership positions, that like, if you don't maintain control over that, it will 100% run roughshod over you and nobody is doing it with any malice of forethought, it is just the way that it will happen and you will be in bed sending emails and you will be in meetings eight hours a day and you will be doing these things if you do not become the master over that calendar. And you see people who do it really really, really well and you're like, oh, that that person really gets it and no loss of respect if they're like, nope, not going to happen, right.
Speaker 1:And I get so excited over that because and maybe that's part of my restlessness right now too is that I have absolutely abdicated responsibility of my calendar. Aside from the very guardrails that are there, I'm like let's, let's maximize this and and I'm learning I need, when I need to build in, maybe some additional protections like the 15 minute buffers. That's been game changing, making sure that my habits get scheduled also really important. So, yeah, it is interesting to think about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love talking about time. I don't think I really realized until we were doing this podcast and talking about it how integral it is to everything that we do. It's kind of everything. They say in real estate, it's location, location, location. I think in life it's time, time, time.
Speaker 1:I would tend to agree, and it's like time and presence maybe I don't know.
Speaker 2:I see that as a component of time to some degree. I mean, you're right, you can do time without doing mindful time, like you could be sitting on the floor with your kid and that's time, but you're on your phone. That's not mindful time, right, like those are two different versions of that, but I still put them in the time bucket. You're still using your time in a certain way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. But I think when you are in that mindful time or presence time, time stretches out in a really kind of weird way, which is maybe why this week is feeling so time warpy. Yeah is really good practice in general for me, because my job as a coach is to be present. That is the primary responsibility is to be there.
Speaker 2:But for a very short discrete period.
Speaker 1:It is a discrete period, exactly, and so then, when I come out of session, it's like, it's like opening the floodgates to everything I've been kind of pushing out, and maybe that is. Maybe it is that back and forth of opening and closing those floodgates that is making me aware of what is on the cutting room floor.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because it's like. It's like I don't know. I'm imagining a spring day or a fall day and all the leaves are outside and it's very gusty and inside it's very calm, and then you open these double doors and like all the leaves come in, it's like, wow, I could do something with those leaves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think too and this was something I was thinking about this morning is because my time right now, without having a nine to five job, it feels bizarre without that structure and you, because of the work that you do no two weeks are really going to ever look the same for you, and so you will probably this might be something you're going to have to either unpack or just get on board with is like you are not going to have that scaffolding around your, your professional life. The way that some people do where they, you know, they get up, they go to a job, the job lasts a certain amount of time, they shut it down, they go home, like that is incredibly rigorous and you have almost the opposite you're, you're a consultant, you're you're, you own your own business. So it really is going to. I was picturing time today as like eddies and swirls, when you don't have that really rigorous structure. And before I was laid off, I had a very, very, even though my meetings varied from day to day. I got up at a certain time, I ended my day at a certain time and it was, you know, it was very structured, and now everything is punctuated with events rather than structure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, is how I'm thinking of time now, and I think that's where I'm getting. The swirling effect is like there then becomes a sort of cyclone around that event. What was that event and what were the things surrounding that event? What was that event and what were the things surrounding? And that's why I don't. I'm not really thinking linear right now in terms of time, and maybe that's a good thing. Maybe this is an interesting, you know, way to experience life a little bit differently is to experience it in this non-linear fashion, and I don't know, I love thought exercises like that, where you can see things from a different perspective. I mean, what is? Here we go, but like what is time anyway?
Speaker 2:Like there's many constructs that we have added as humans onto time and how it operates, and all of that so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that because on my walk today I was thinking of how we experience time in a linear fashion, yeah, and how sometimes in life the memories just feel different. Yeah, looking back on different points in time. I had a migraine yesterday and I think for me, having migraines it thins the experience of time, where it's like I can remember things more clearly because my brain is like not firing totally correctly, which is definitely not something I had ever given thought to before.
Speaker 1:It's very strange. But yeah, you're right. I mean, when I started my business, when I left my corporate job, that was one of the hardest things was the lack of structure. And now, fully almost two years in, it is still something that I think about all the time. And playing with different structures and right now I have probably the most structured, which is I can just expect to be in meetings between 10 and four, with small breaks here and there, and sometimes nine, nine to four and sometimes to five, so, depending on the day and it is. It's interesting to go back to that because I think it confirms my hypothesis that when I was in my corporate job I was not super well. It was like I was definitely in like a burnout space where I was really running on a lot of adrenaline. And right now I don't feel like I have a lot of adrenaline and so being in that very packed schedule is different than it was before.
Speaker 1:I also think then I would come in and I would sit down at my desk and I would have so many different people to talk to. I mean, I don't know how much I was working all day, but I don't know how much of that time was actually work versus the other parts of being a manager checking in with employees and catching up Right, that is also work, but it's a different kind of work, Whereas now, you know, those discrete chunks for me are very concentrated.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm curious why you don't have that feeling of adrenaline now.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't think I'm in a burnout place right now. That's what I mean. I don't feel like I'm in fight or flight. I'm aware of the capacity. Yeah, and like being kind of at that space, but I'm not like losing my mind. I mean that's great. Yeah, and you're over there like didn't we just spend the last 35 minutes talking about how you're losing your mind? No, it just it feels different, and maybe it's because the purpose is different.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's, it's what you really want to do, it's what you you seek. I just, I don't know finding that vision and passion and making it happen. Like I think I feel, like I would feel a lot of adrenaline because it's all on me, right, but I think for you, like you know, this is the thing you're supposed to be doing, and so there's calm in that decision. Like the adrenaline maybe came at the point of deciding to open your own business and do all of this, but now it's like oh, that was the right call. And here I am, and here I'm doing the thing I was supposed to be doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe adrenaline is not the right differentiator, because there is adrenaline of making sure that I'm on time and present and all of those things, yeah. But I think the difference is that sense of calm, of like today is going to be a busy day and I'm going to get through it, and this is what I'm going to be doing to take care of myself between sessions and this is how I'm not going to tip over into burnout. But I'm going to stay in capacity. Maybe it's a heightened awareness of my capacity.
Speaker 2:It's not the job necessarily that's changed, it's you that's changed. The job necessarily that's changed, it's you that's changed. You have figured out what you need to function and do the job that you want to do without losing yourself to it. So I mean you could theoretically go back to your other job and bring all of this new knowledge with you and not be burned out. You just wouldn't have the same passion that you do for the work that you currently do. Maybe I have said that to my previous boss.
Speaker 1:I'm like if I could just take the things that I've learned now back, maybe I didn't need to quit, Maybe I just needed a medical or something to come back to myself. But yeah, I think we were on a train of thought and I had something else to say, and now I can't remember what it is. Oh dear.
Speaker 2:Well, that's just very fine.
Speaker 1:Oh, it was about structure and time and how that it now. Looking at where I am, it's just a constant trying to figure out what structure looks best. And so, whether that's coaching on Tuesday, wednesday, thursday and not doing Fridays and Mondays, or coaching only a certain part of every day, or four days a week, what does that look like? And for you in this time that's kind of the question that I have that's still lingering is like what do you? What structure works best for you so that you have the view of time that you want to?
Speaker 2:have this odd moment and I think I'm going to look back years from now at this time and say, well, that was different and kind of cool and not what I was used to.
Speaker 2:I'm realizing how structured my life has always been between high school, directly to college, directly to grad school, directly to an internship, directly to the us government, directly to amazon, directly to ibm, directly to wait, pause, laid off, not, and like. I think I'm going to look back and say what a weird moment and kind of fun and kind of I don't know something special, not good or bad, special, just its own moment in time, its own moment in time, and I kind of like that. I'm seeing things from a different perspective. For that reason, I don't know, I kind of want to bottle this a little bit and like take it with me and maybe another six weeks of doing this, and I'll be like okay, that moment was great. I'm ready to get back into some sort of structure again, but, as of right now, I'm just sort of riding the wave. That's what it feels like. It feels like I'm on a relatively sturdy surfboard. I don't think that I'm floundering in treading water, but I do feel like I am on a current that is not entirely my own and.
Speaker 2:I'm just riding it and every day people reach out to me and I have interesting conversations that I did not expect to have, and I'm learning things about myself because I'm doing interviews and I'm having conversations that bring up different pieces of me that I just didn't access when I was working. I didn't access all the pieces of me, of course, because those are not. You don't need all the pieces of you in order to do a specific job. You need specific pieces of you, and so I'm really enjoying getting the chance to do that, even though it is not what I expected.
Speaker 2:I kind of had a vision of what getting laid off looks like, and it involves a cocktail with an umbrella in it on the back deck, you know, in the sun, and don't think I've been back there once, definitely haven't had any cocktails with umbrellas in them. So I'm just I'm taking really questioning it too much, because I feel an odd for me sense of security about it. It's a security in yourself. Yeah, I just feel like it's going to work out, and that is not a common thing for me to feel, where I just feel completely surrendered to the process.
Speaker 1:No, I think you are much more security minded than that typically.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is one of those like great surprises in this process is that I've been kind of like all right, let's see what happens, right?
Speaker 1:I'll take meetings.
Speaker 2:I'll do interviews. I'll check things out. I'll have, you know, great discussions with people, but I'm just gonna let it unfold like reading a book for the first time that is so cool.
Speaker 1:I'm imagining all of these pieces of you that have always just been there, but maybe you just didn't need to access. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You didn't need them. I've been collecting them over years. And then you know you get into a job and you put some of them away and you say, okay, don't need these ones right now, I'll come back to you later. And then now I'm getting the chance to like okay, everyone, come out on the floor and play, let's see. Let's see the pieces that are really important or the pieces that I really enjoy.
Speaker 1:It's a different kind of, maybe a third kind of integration. Yeah disintegration and rearranging of things.
Speaker 2:I mean, what a gift though, like what a time in your life to get that sort of pause to be like all right. I've always thought this room was like mismanaged, like let's move the desk over there, let's bring the bookshelf over here, and that's what I kind of feel like I'm doing right now is like putting everything in the middle of the floor and figuring out what goes next, which maybe I should literally do in my office, like maybe that's what my office needs is a literal rearranging. That'd be kind of fun.
Speaker 1:Oh, I think you know my thoughts on this. I do indeed. Yeah, I'm all for it. I had a client earlier this week. I asked him I think it was earlier this week, it might have been last week I asked him what are you learning about yourself as we talk about these things, as I do? Yeah, and he said you know, I'm in my mid-40s. I don't know if I'm learning this about myself so much as I'm remembering this about myself. Yeah, and that is what's coming up for me.
Speaker 1:When you're describing this too. It's like, wow, I had put this thing high on the shelf and actually I really like this thing. I want to look at it every day. So let me pull it down and dust it off and make sure that the things that I'm looking at every day are the things that I want to be looking at every day.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think that comes down to a job search too, as you're deciding where it is that you would want to work next. Maybe the place to start is to say what are the pieces of me that I want to push forward and let me find the job that fits the pieces of me that I want to be at the forefront right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so profound.
Speaker 2:So it has definitely been not what I would have ever predicted. If we could go back in time to February and you say, Lisa, if you got laid off next month, what do you think you'd feel about it and what do you think you'd do? This would not have been on my bingo card to say like I'd probably be super chill and just really enjoy the process of finding another job. But that's what it's been and it really has been a total journey. So yeah, it's very cool, Very cool.
Speaker 1:Well, thanks for unpacking with me today.
Speaker 2:I very much enjoyed it. Thank you for once again reminding us that time is by far and away the most complex piece of what we do here on this planet Earth.
Speaker 1:It really is, and thank you for reminding me that we can exert more control or more intentionality around it than we often give ourselves credit for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was shifting that paradigm to say, like, what would it look like if I had 100% control over my time? Like what would that look like, and then work backwards from there to some place. That's reasonable. Yeah, yeah, all right Talk to you later.
Speaker 1:Love you, love you, lisa.
Speaker 2:Tune in every week you won't want to miss. Dive deep into life with Jess and Lisa.
