#12 Military Trauma Expert / Bestselling Author's New Book: "Fall Out"

This week I recorded a fantastic podcast with 'Doc' Shauna Springer, Ph.D.
**(She doesn't go by 'Doc' because she has a Ph.D.)** 

She earned that title over the years of earning respect from veterans leading the charge in Veteran Mental Health! Anyone who served in SOF or combat-arms the team-medic, referred to as 'Doc', is always one of the most beloved members of any team. He's the one that will plug your holes and keep you breathing, will continue doing so as long as they have breath in their body.

She's a:
 -Licensed psychologist,
 -Bestselling author, and
 -One of the MOST TRUSTED Voices working to demystify psychological trauma, Difficulty During military transition, moral injury, veteran/law enforcement suicide prevention, and the relationships that hold warriors together when life's storms are raging.

'Doc Springer' also currently serves as Chief Psychologist at Stella Mental Health, and she’s known in the veteran and first responder world because She Doesn’t Talk AT People — she’s spent years EARNING TRUST in The Rooms where outsiders Never Get Invited!

You may know her from her groundbreaking book WARRIOR: How to Support Those Who Protect Us, where she pulls the curtain back on what many civilians don’t understand — Trust, Stigma, Connection, and what it actually looks like when an Unbreakable-Juggernaut starts imploding on the inside.
 she then took it even further with RELENTLESS COURAGE: Winning the Battle Against Frontline Trauma, co-authored with Michael Sugrue — a book aimed straight at the realities first responders (especially Law Enforcement Officers) carry, and how that weight affects the mind, the home, and the mission.

But TODAY WE'RE HERE for her Newest book: "FALL OUT: Ten Common Beliefs that Kill Our Bravest and the Truths that Can Save Them" — and yes, it’s available on Amazon right now.

This isn’t a “feel-good wellness talk.” FALL OUT takes aim at the false beliefs and check-the-box approaches that sound good on paper, but Do Not Work within our warrior cultures — in many cases it's making things worse. In a growing number of tragic cases, it is a Factor in costing the lives of some of the best and bravest men and women walking on the face of the earth.

'Doc' Springer's new book: "Fall Out"
(Two words, multiple-meanings, All of them Powerful & Insightful)

*****Link below*****

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Transcript

3:25

Doc Springer, welcome to old Ranger, new dad. this podcast I've been waiting for it for a minute. And as you guys will all be able to see the book behind me, Warrior, which is on the wall with a lot of tabs sticking out of it, more tabs than I've ever put in any book. it it was a game changer when I read that book If you would, tell us a little bit about your book, Fallout, and as you're about to release it, you said on the 12th, correct? Yes, yeah exactly. March 12th and I just got my galley copy so it's not going to look like this because it will just not have the stripe across but it's called Fallout 10 common beliefs that kill our bravest and the truths that can save them. I was an English major in college. So I know that if you're talking about fallout, like nuclear fallout, or the fallout of a trauma, it's one one word, right? But this is two words. And that's intended. Because in the book, I talk about the fallout from failed attempts and approaches that don't land for warriors, protectors and defenders. But essentially the title is my invitation. This is me calling to people with a warrior spirit to fall out. As in break from rigid beliefs that are not helping save people, that are not keeping your brothers and sisters in the fight. Break from those false beliefs to begin to build something that you need and that really can help you begin to heal. That's amazing. And as, as people get familiar with you, if they are not already, which if you're not already familiar with Doc Springer, you need to get that way. I really told you after reading warrior, I really think that it should be required reading. Like I, I think back, if I in the Ranger regiment had gone through that book and read it then while I was, you know, in the mix of the deployments and all these things, I just think mentally I would have been more prepared. for the topics that you kind of cover and the feelings that you're having, but you don't know the name of it and you don't know what's normal, what's not normal, all these things we have to learn kind of the hard way before all of this research and data has been put out. That doesn't have to be that way. It's so sad to me because Fallout, is a continuation of Warrior. I'm actually writing a literary triad. So Warrior was my first book. This is the second in the series and the third one is kind of starting to form itself right now in my head. This is about helping prepare warriors for mental warfare. and mental warfare is part of the path. It's part of your chosen calling. if you're going to see messed up things, you're going to have some dark and messed up thoughts. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. And my premise is we do exactly as you said so well just now, we do have to get ahead of it and help warriors prepare for the mental warfare that will come with some of our energy. all of the energy goes into the physical warfare and the physical fitness and we leave their flank totally wide open when it comes to the mental warfare that's coming for them. And so there's ways to understand it and get traction with it, heal from it, and that's really where my work sits is helping people understand those things. And it's not for lack of trying that this work is not more standardized. I have tried. And a funny thing happens when you're a woman outside of the military. You have a lot of great first conversations and then it goes nowhere. So it's warriors that I need to kind of like be the energy behind if you want this early on in training, it needs to come from warriors. You know, I've kind of hit enough walls trying to get my work out in that way that I'm just gonna write and hope that people stand with me at this point. And that's a profound statement because as you're, as you're describing this, I'm thinking back, right? especially in special ops, but even in the Marine Corps, like you're an infantry Marine, like you're not interested in talking to a civilian about anything. Like, you know, that's kind of the culture right at the very, when you're being indoctrinated, you're being you know, changed and molded into a Marine. You're seeing civilians as your previous self. And so you're seeing, these are all the things I don't want to be like anymore. So I'm going to hang out with people and only associate myself, which law enforcement does, unfortunately, way too much. I know because I did that as a law enforcement officer for several years. And what you end up doing is everybody's so scared of echo chambers. Guess what? We've been putting ourselves in echo chambers for how long? We just didn't call them that. And it's not social media. So now all of a sudden it's dangerous. And I get the algorithm really hypes that and it's different. But I will say this, like you as a civilian, but you're an expert at the topics and you're bringing the truth out in a way that I'm not seeing it be brought out. by other people that are in our space and so there has to be that grace. You have to come across the bridge at some point and go okay actually there might be some people with some really good information that have experience working with veterans like yourself and that's where I think you're in a different category. You're in between your 'Doc' Springer, for a reason. Yeah, it's been really the honor of my life to be adopted into this tribe by so many warriors. And being adopted into the tribe is different than being adopted by the leaders. Now, there have been some really good leaders, especially in the SOF community and some Marine leaders that have really brought me in. So I want to be fair. It's not, you know, been across the board. But I haven't been able to get this work and thinking into the mainstream of how we train and equip warriors in the way that I would like. And so, you know, I grant that I'm an unlikely source of wisdom, you know, being outside the tribe in a way, but it wasn't me who said I'm Doc Springer. It wasn't a name I gave myself. It was a name that came from years of a rather unique relationship. with warriors and one of the things that's going to happen I think is that on the day that my next book launches I will be I have 10 Marines that are staying overnight and they're going to be sacked out you know all over the house and they're coming through on their motorcycles and I just don't say no to these guys when they're coming from Texas and I'm not going to say no to can we visit you now it's on the day my book launches so my strategy is I'm going to just put out a few emails to people and say, please take this over the finish line. Just take it and make it happen. I have to entrust it to the people I wrote it for at some point instead of worrying about it and calling people all day and doing what most authors do. It's a partnership. And so I did have a question to just jump into the book and learn a little bit more about what's in it. you talked about the title fallout. When you say that, what kind of damage are you talking about? Internal inside the warrior? You're talking about fallout in the home or like fallout inside our culture around them. all of it. There's a section of the introduction that talks about, do you want me to read like a little snippet for you? This would be the first time I've done this on a podcast. Here we go. The fallout and this is with no space. So I mean fallout as in damage. Failed approaches have produced far too much fallout, too much funding wasted on well-intended campaigns that do more harm than good, too much spent on mental health initiatives that are out of touch with protectors' needs, too much time and focus squandered on training based on civilian approaches, too much broken trust from countless acts of courage that led to career repercussions for those who protect us, too much focus on resilience and not enough focus on building the elasticity. that leads to peak performance. Too much focus on wellness. Aiming to be well does not inspire the warrior spirit. And not enough focus on being tested, stretched, and growing through and because of adversity. Too much fear and territory guarding that has blocked access or funding for innovative treatments that have been life saving for many. Too many wellness programs that sound good on paper but exist only to check the box. Too many highly qualified experts who can't earn the trust or connect with the warrior spirit. Too many suicide prevention leaders who have never walked someone through a tunnel of despair. Too many people who want to work with warriors and first responders who do not understand that this work is not a job, but a calling, and it requires its own kind of warrior spirit. Too many of our protectors left feeling helpless without the actionable insights they need to get traction with mental warfare. Too many AI solutions that move us further away from What dissolves shame and binds us to hope. Authentic, courageous human connection. Too many irreplaceable people who have been lost, including people some of us would have taken a bullet for. And too many warrior wives, husbands, partners, parents, brothers and sisters who have carried an unbearable weight of grief as a result. This is the fallout from years of failed approaches. Loss upon loss, silence upon silence. even as every life loss screams for change. We must rise and decisively meet the need. Wow. You know, just, just listening to you talk through that brought up just memories of, you know, times when boxes were checked that I can remember over and over people checking boxes and absolutely nobody going to talk to anyone. I'm not going to put a label on it. I'll just say my experience and everybody that I was in with. I'll give you a specific example. I'm coming back from Iraq. We literally land. Now we know we can't talk to our families at all. They can't know that we're even coming home. We land and now we're going to go. see them, but our phones are all locked up in wall lockers that are physically locked. Our cars are locked up in, you know, in parking lots with razor wire around it and guarded. So we have no way of communicating with our families. And it's the it's the family readiness that reaches out to the spouses and or whatever that you put down Well, we're sitting there at the flight line. Like we get to go inside the building and they have food and we can, you know, use the restroom and that's it. We still smell terrible. We've been traveling for four days to get across the Middle East and Germany and everywhere else we had to fly it still blows my mind. We literally had the, the shrink, just going to put that out there. That was the only word we ever used. We have to go talk to the shrink. And that's literally like, Hey, you got to go talk to the shrink before we can be released. I'm like, where are you serious? Like right now, all of us, we all have to sit here until everybody here for the whole deployment. has to go talk to one person, right? One person, one woman sitting in one room and everybody, like, even if we just had to, everybody has to eat, that's too long. Bro, I'm not going to eat. Let's get through the line. Let's go. No, no, we have to check this box. And they knew that if they put us on leave, that it's going to be harder for them to. to make sure everybody gets checked. If we just do it right now, well then everybody's good already. And I'm like, man, I'm in my early 20s and I don't, I'm not the smartest guy in this room, but I know that if you tell me that every Ranger is gonna wait on every other Ranger to get through that doorway, check boxes and get out of that doorway. Yeah. Yeah. happened. There was a contest. The contest was who can get in and out the fastest with her phone number and 100%. That's the only thing anybody cared about. That's it. checking the box. Yeah, there's nothing like the mirage of hope and help that is just the opposite. it just diminishes the whole process of what a 'Doc' actually can do. The right kind of person in the right kind of safe and trusted setting is magic for people that are coming home with that partnership that you create with someone in that in terms of a healing relationship. It's so powerful. And what you had was just this sham of that. So I know that this happens. And same thing happens with transition. People are told, hey, there's all these services. how fast can I get through it? So you're not hearing any of it. And there's some good resources in there. But yeah. Yeah. failure point you're bringing out and that's now I can't obviously I can't wait to read your book anyways but literally what you're talking about is exactly my experience I was in Mosul and literally I'm like hey just a reminder I get out of the army I was there with the special operations task force. And my unit was still going to be there, but they deployed me and I was getting out of the army and they're like, just keeping me. And I'm like, guys, I literally leave in two weeks. And finally my first sergeant's like, Like he's super annoyed at me. He's like, all right, well, since you want to leave so bad, just follow Sergeant so-and-so. I'm like, right now? Yeah, go pick your stuff up and leave. I'm like, I run to the room, grab all my stuff, because he's literally already has his stuff packed. I go out to the flight line, we literally get Velcro patches with nothing on it but our name tapes. Ryan, US Army, that's it. That's all we wore. We literally walked out onto the flight lines and hitchhiked. to Savannah, Georgia. We can't tell you who we are, and you just have to ask nicely. And we did. And people would literally just pick us up, take us to someplace, and then we would ask somebody on the flight line. They would take us. We ended up backtracking, I think, twice. So it ended up taking us like four or five days to get back. And literally I get back and they're like, okay, here's your checklist. Go. So I'm sprinting to all these places. Hey, can you sign this? He just stepped out. Okay. I'll go try to get this signed real quick. And that was how the whole process was. I went to go do the big army checkout and they're like, well, you have to go through TAPS was like, bro, I got two days to get out. What I'm sitting through taps. I'm getting out. I have to go home. I already got my truck rented. Everything is ready to go on my end. This is on you. This ain't on me. And I look back at that now and I just go, I was so completely unprepared to leave, but I didn't know that. And I had no services. They, they also, they were like, we also have to jerk your wisdom teeth out. I was like, why do you have to do that? And they're like, well, it's just something we do. of blood and you know No, and there's nobody to take me, so I drove myself there. They shot me up with Lidocaine and I drove myself home. They're like, you're not allowed to do that. was like, I'm like this, like, I got nobody else to do it. So I'm literally the poster child for everything you're describing gone wrong. okay, last story My DD214, I go to the lady and say, my DD214. She goes, okay, well, I don't have any of her deployment dates. What do I put? I'm, I was like, I apologize. I didn't realize I was the first person to get out of the army here. Please tell me how this works on your end. And she's looking at me all angry and I'm like, okay, I don't understand this right now. You just tell me what you need. I'll get it to you, but I don't know what you need. And she's like, I have to have dates to put down. can't put it. And this is where we're going back and forth. And I don't, I'm not angry at this lady, but this is one day before I leave. Like I'm leaving tomorrow. And she's like, well, you have to give me something. I have to wait for somebody to show up and finally he does and I'm like hey sergeant so-and-so needs dates and he's like okay he goes in he types up real fast oh hundred percent these are not correct uh I do not believe these whatsoever he literally just types out dates and says Yeah. in support of OIF, in support of OEF, in support of OIF, in support of... He literally did ABAB. So we give her that. She literally types it while I'm sitting there and hands me the paper. was like, there's no way that's accurate. There's no way that was accurate. Here we go. This is how you do it. Okay. So anyways, learn from my mistakes. Don't do that, everyone. Don't do that. mean, this is the thing. Seth, what mistake? Like, what choices did you have? know. At the same time, I should have stayed long. I shouldn't have been in such a rush. to get home, should have thought about that. should have been more careful on my end. It's almost like not documenting when I get hurt. Like, man, you need to go to Medical You NEED to get this documented. And as a Ranger, I'm not doing that, And that screws you at the end. some water yeah that's terrible but if it makes you feel any better people that do stretch out their separation process are not mentally able to take in a lot of that stuff anyway so they can sit through TAP (Transition Assistance Program) not really hear much of what they say get antsy and be frustrated and then kind of go uh and not even like really take it all in and then hit that wall anyway because they just want to get home like that transition space you know it's almost like gosh it would be more effective like a few you know weeks after you get out or you know after you've had some time to adjust bring your nervous system down a bit and then take in, okay, what are the resources to help me? Yeah, that's funny. I mean, it's terrible, but here's the thing, your experience is not just unique to you, as you know, this is just, what I share in my writing is based on things like that, that warriors have shared with me repeatedly. I'm looking for the patterns and the themes and going, is this one guy's experience? no, it's not. This is what's happening for many people in this community and just trying to reflect that in a lot of what I write. Right. So I know that you mentioned you have 10 of these dangerous beliefs that can save lives. Could you just share one the illusion of control with the best of intentions. People say, you know, zero suicide and we're, going to really stamp out suicide end the stigma of, know, best of intentions. we don't have control over other people's decisions. One of the things I had to realize early on as a 'Doc' is that If you're somebody that does this work, you will lose some people. It's like somebody on the battlefield who's very proficient as a leader also has to say, I'm going to lose some of my soldiers because that's what happens in war. Same thing happens in mental warfare. you know, people make their own decisions. Their mind state is profoundly altered when they're at the end of the tunnel of despair. and they're hearing the voice of their demons, it's hard to bring them back from that. Not impossible. There's a lot we could be doing. Like overarching point is there's a lot of heartbreak that's preventable and there are things that work. So within that, I'm also committed to telling the truth that nobody, including me, has psychological X-ray vision. And when we say every suicide can be prevented, it infers that somebody screwed up when somebody dies by suicide. And I also know that sometimes the story is people were given every resource and somebody had them on suicide watch and was following them around and people knew that they were at the end of the tunnel with their demons and they still ended up taking their lives. So I think the illusion of control is really important to balance against there's much that can be done. There are many lives that can be saved. with the right treatments and the right approach, you can heal. All of that is true. And it doesn't mean that somebody screwed up if somebody dies by their own hand. It's just us kind of getting comfortable with that element of we don't control everything. I know I certainly don't. So that's one of the beliefs. Agree, disagree, what do you think? oh, a hundred percent. I mean, you again, you nailed it with that one because it's such a fundamental thing that everybody understands with children. Everybody knows that you can raise your kid to be the best child that you could possibly produce. And at the end of the day, when they turn 18, they're going to go out and make their own decisions. And you will literally have, as an example, with so I'm gonna bring I'm gonna make this super personal so this is my sister I was so driven that I graduated high school and I'm done with everything, I got on a bus and I rode to Oregon and just hung out with friends that I had made friends with when we lived there, but I hadn't seen them in years. And so I just went and hung out with friends. When I came back from that a a month later, I literally moved in with the guy that I was best friends with in high school and that was it. My parents lived with me before and with my sister, it was just vastly different. She decided to, she was gonna do some stupid mistakes when she was young, drinking and smoking and that kind of stuff. I think it's what you say is so true that like, we can invest in our kids and try and shape them and we don't have control. You know, we do not have control. like, for me being a mom, have made any of those decisions and nobody could have ever stopped me. Yes, so what I say in the book is actually came out of conversations I had with Dwayne France, an army veteran. We did the Seeking the Military Suicide Solution podcast, 52 episodes over 2020 for Military Times. And some of our conversations focused on the concept that the only life you can save is your own. And when you choose to stay in the fight, you give other people permission to survive their trauma. that is hard hitting right there. That is so real. everybody can relate to that. It's not just veterans who think that they have control, but you're right. I actually had somebody reach out to me just on LinkedIn. She's a civilian and said, I'm really passionate about helping veterans. have veterans in my family, but I don't know where to go. And I was like, cool, we're going to have a conversation. and I'm going to tell her like, listen, veterans suicide. is absolutely horrible and that is where almost every civilian I talked to wants to go into. However, in the last, I would say six months, multiple guys are getting out of special ops and they are focused on combating human trafficking. And it's like, man, like there's that, these are two of the top things. You put that in front of somebody and they're gonna go, yeah, I wanna go after one of those two things. But. man, there's so many veterans that are not right. There's so many veterans out there that have so many other just regular needs that could be addressed where nobody's focused on. And that's my point. Not that either of those aren't things that absolutely need to be combated and focused on. uh But that man, there's I'm going to tell her there are so many things that if you will just go to a local place, there's a rehab or there's a alcoholics rehab center and it's veterans centric, I guess is the way it was explained to me that one of the Chamber of Commerce members is a part of. And so she told me about it when she found out I was a veteran and they just once a month they have veterans, anybody who can come and visit with people. And right there, that's where you're going to find where you could fit and where any person with any skill set could still help a veteran. And so it's just being are people and they want to be seen for who they are, not worship like heroes, but really have civilians who are safe and capable of hearing it hear some of what they want to share. Not push them, not ask intrusive questions, but just witness some of their peak moments, know, some of the things they loved about serving in the military, some of the hard things, some of the grief. to bear that grief with them in a communal way. It's very helpful and to not, you know, kind of reduce them to heroes or broken, you know, both are false myths, right? They're people with, to your point, complexity and facets. And I just really love the ethos that unifies this tribe. I identify with it. So it feels natural to want to support veterans, but it's also something you have to spend. many years learning how to do because you're not going to get that education in a grad school. It's not going to come. The things that this is part of the book too. 10 beliefs right take one belief on for each chapter. have every chapter ends in three takeaway points very practical and three questions to just like prompt further reflection like I do for all my books. And then at the end, there's three more chapters on this is what I think needs to be built. The first is on all the biological treatments that few people know about that are available now that are safe, that are legal, that can heal injuries, psychological injuries. Then there's a chapter on all of this rush to AI and how it can be done well when AI serves to connect humans. or when it's used as a replacement for human connection, then we're moving really fast in the wrong direction. And then the last chapter is about what I've built through thin line advisory, where I work with organizations, nonprofits, companies, military units, public safety, chiefs and sheriffs, to really help give them a Ranger of new insights and specialized advising and consultation. to take them through all kinds of challenges that come with leading a group of people who are really a tribe, that are not a collection of employees, but really something very different. So that's kind of the structure of the book. obviously I love that. I also love that this is a trilogy because I'm already excited about having all three of these books and. it was, yeah, it was a very perceptive veteran named Chris Jock that saw what other people didn't see. So I sent this out to, I always send my stuff out and say, all right, come at me. What did I get wrong, right? You're never gonna get anything that I published and it's like, this is what I think. It's gone through like 10 or 12 warriors to say, oh, and as I write more and more, they tend to say, less and less this is wrong but there's always a few little things so it's a partnership and they gave me this this response but um he said if warrior you know the one this one that you have behind you warrior is like a new hope then this one is the empire strikes back and he's right because this one i think i did i show you this it has there's There's some darkness to what I have to go into now. I have to say, we're getting it wrong. We're getting it wrong and we have a brutal choice, which is change or continue to bury our bravest. And so this is a very like. It's polite. I think it's well reasoned. It's based on what warriors have shared with me, but it's also, I'm putting it out there. really challenging the status quo with this one. And then the third book is going to be really focused on a lot of very practical things, even building on this one. Here's different ways to look at how you can heal from survivor guilt, how you can navigate traumatic grief. thinking about a lot of warriors have perceptions of abandonment from early childhood, not from the military, but other stuff that often informs their decision to pursue this calling. And so helping them move through some of that trauma, it'll just really focus on some of the areas where I feel like we need new insights to help them heal. And it's not something that gets trained in grad school. So that'll be speaking directly to warriors. Docs can read it and implement some of that stuff, but I'm going to write this one and the next one primarily for warriors and first responders. that's awesome as well because veteran, if you're a civilian and you know that there's a veteran and you know they don't really necessarily talk to you but maybe you you used to know them before they're in the military or or this is a family member, whatever, you could, you can use something as simple as hey, here's this book, an audible, just read this, thought it was super interesting. I just sent you a copy. Don't worry about it. That type of a thing. I think that is a very powerful way because I absolutely love audible books, and Kindle books. Like that's a really easy way of not having a hard conversation, but still giving somebody a tool that you know that they would actually enjoy. And here's the cool part. You, you, has to go, no strings attached. Like I'm not going to ask you about it afterward. Just here it is. hope you enjoy it and that's it. Maybe you throw it out as an extra Christmas gift. But this is the part where most people screw up is they want to check in. Hey, did you happen to... Hey, did you... You know I've been busy. I will get to it. 100 % and nobody likes homework. Nobody likes homework. Yeah. reach a veteran that you don't, you're not necessarily connected with as well and, or, you know, maybe they are not interested in talking about some things and, you put that out there. You talking about, um, It's like you pour your soul into them. I pour my insights into them. This is how I scale insights is through books. know, books, don't write books to make money. It's not how you make money, but it is a way to scale insights that can change and save lives. And you can, this book is short by design, which is harder for me than writing a lot. short, because people are busy and overwhelmed and overstimulated. And I wanted to make it very practical and short so that they could get through it quickly, integrate it and use it. But yeah, it is way to support veterans and also to make the work visible. What people don't understand, which I now deeply understand having written a few books, is how Amazon really kind of stacks against independent authors. You could have a book that you sell through a publisher listed for months for pre-sale and all those orders that you get stacked up during pre-sale, they go into your sort of best seller figure. When you publish your own work as I do, I keep control of everything and want to control the whole process. You can't even have people pre-order your book, only the e-book, which is, you so it's really a deck that's kind of stacked against you. So right now my book has been available for about a week for pre-orders for $2.99. And if people could go in there and pre-order the book, that's kind of like a vote for making this work visible so that when it comes live, it doesn't get buried under the thousands of books that are on Amazon. And so that's kind of like if people are wanting to support this anyway and willing to support it, pre-ordering it and then ordering the actual copy on the 12th is the way that we can make this work visible for those who need it. That's awesome. Yeah. And obviously I'm going to be buying more than one copy. And I love that. Yeah. I love to support like you just said, your heart and soul into a book and you're putting all this out there. And when you're not welcomed with open arms by military leadership and you want to see all these changes, It can be super frustrating. I already know that, just being a human and existing for as long as I have. That being said, like kudos to you. Seriously. Like I, I, I'm not just saying this cause you're on a podcast. I mean, mean, like from one human to another, it is hard to get a another human to really focus on things that are not focused on them $2. 99. Like I'm spending that on some type of protein bar, or I'm spending, you know, $4 on a cup of coffee, on my website, which I have a guy building my website out, I'm going to have a place for you and your links and those books forever. And I'm not getting a percentage of that ever. Like, that's part of who I am. That's the whole reason I'm podcasting. And so, yeah, more veterans need to do that. We've got to support people that are supporting our community and putting all this work in and knowing that you're not going to be You're not getting a book deal in this bunch of money poured in on you and you want control of it so it's not changed and or all the other things that go along with Amazon as we know. so little from like selling books. It's laughable. know, nobody's going to buy a second home in Mexico based on their book proceeds. It's just ridiculous. But they are a very inexpensive way to get ideas out to people. Well, one thing that you said that I really want to touch on real quick, you're talking about the leadership in the military and not, just being this really wanting to jump into the change when you see so clearly, and I know because of how much knowledge you pour into your book that you have had to spend a lot of time doing a lot of digging and research and conversations with people to have this wisdom to put into this book. And as you lay that out, I'm like, like that is something that we never talk about. these topics are things that every military leader, It doesn't matter what branch you're in, it doesn't matter what job you're in. If you're in leadership, you already know intrinsically that these things that you lay out in this are true, if you have any experience in life. And all it takes is you. talking to your leadership. We know the military way. You got to influence people around you, then they've got to influence people. You can't just go straight to the captain and be like, hey, sir, you know what we should really do is focus on, So have a good weekend. Like, that's not how it works. And it comes through relationships. That's where change comes. So when I was talking earlier, about the civilian who's interested in getting into the space. I didn't fully explain if you're going to convince one person not to leave this earth early, you're going to have to do it by forming a relationship with that person and bonding with that person so that you are the person they're going to call in that time of need. And that is an uphill battle if you're a civilian, not somebody who's experienced what we've experienced. Here's the only wisdom nugget I can throw out about all of that. As a veteran, both in the Marine Corps, again, in the mentality of the Marine Corps, and... in the Ranger regiment, which are so closely aligned in reality. Neither one of them like to hear that, but it is so closely aligned in reality. They are the war fighter. Death of destruction is what's built into you because you're going direct action with everybody that you're ever going to meet in a hostile field. So you are the warrior class. And I, when I, when I come back from Iraq after the fourth time in Afghanistan, cause we would do Tours where we're in Iraq and then we moved to Afghanistan and we're doing operations in both countries So it wasn't standard military deployments like I've been to horrible places and seen and and you know been around people that have survived these horrific atrocities and all these things and you've been around that and then you come back to America and I think this is Everybody has experienced this at some point And usually experience a lot when you first get out where you are hyper aware of the complaints of civilians around you about stupid things that don't matter. Sure. So this is one of the most important things that every civilian can do to build a relationship deeper is you really have to watch what you say in a way that you're you're aware that you're not complaining and whining about the dumbest things that happen to you on a daily basis. Somebody almost run you off the road. Cool. All of us experience that in combat and regular life that happens. Don't tell me that they messed up your and of course everybody feels in the dumb blank or the dumb joke with most up your name on your coffee cup at Starbucks. Cool. We got that. That's a joke. But really like somebody, Amazon delivered you the wrong box and it's here and you're really frustrated today. And if you say that to your coworker who just got out, I'm gonna use a fellow coworker and he was a combat medic and he has seen far worse things up close and personal than I have. That guy has complex PTSD, he barely sleeps. he has issues that he will not share with anybody that he is not close to. Now when I say that, I'm bringing him out as a very specific reason. In our recruiter circle, that included HR, that included HR recruiting, and we threw in an accountant for good measure. These are civilians, but they were married to veterans or they did something in a space, but they weren't us. They weren't a combat medic. They weren't Ranger. They weren't these things. but yet the conversation about Complex PTSD was had in their presence on a daily basis because they had formed a relationship with him and with me where I'm comfortable sharing crazy wild stories that are absolutely not HR appropriate with the HR person who is supposed to write me up if I say something horrific. But I'm sharing what actually happened and you know what they never did? They never, they never complained about the stupid things that make no difference in reality. And that are a very tiny nuisance when, you know, people are deleting themselves on a weekly basis. And by the way, we're getting those messages on Facebook, we just had another Ranger uh I believe it was two days ago or three. They're in all of my feeds, right? All my buddies, because it was first Ranger battalion, it was I'm saying and we don't need this much loss in the community anymore. We have got to do something different. I'm so sorry. I just, it's one of those things where you, I knew what you were gonna say. Still. but I had a buddy who just got murdered selling something on Facebook Marketplace. He was selling his old- phone. He just bought a new one. Three teenagers showed up to his house and shot him and killed him. This guy was Marine Recon for years, then switched over to defense contracting. It was the bodyguard for the ambassador of Iraq for, years, And he was actually just home from helping teach combat medicine. He also would go to Ukraine and teach combat medicine on his days off he didn't have a family. didn't have a wife or kids. building schools and churches in Africa on his other time off. Like that's what this guy was about. before we lose this thread, like without talking about any specific who this person is, that medic that you talked about that 'Doc' um, a treatment called stellic ganglion block that's used in special forces. You probably know about it. To reset the adrenaline system, you just mentioned one thing that's very common that he's not sleeping at all. And how could it be otherwise? And so after the podcast, I'd like you to talk to him about whether that's a treatment that he'd like to be evaluated for. amazing. I appreciate that and I will definitely talk to you offline about that like I say, it's, it's simple little things that could exclude you from the, from the round table, from the circle of trust. But you can definitely get in there. And I will say like, I'm making friends podcasting with podcasters and some of them obviously are veterans, but some of them are definitely not veterans. And I just poured my heart and soul out on a podcast with a guy who had lost a two and a half year old daughter. And I lost uh my son or we were doing IVF and ended up having a miscarriage late term. uh And my wife almost died in the surgery. she survived, we're good, but. the worst experience of my life. I'm just all of the things, but here's this crazy part is I don't know this guy at all. He just put out on a thread on Facebook and I just had joined a Facebook podcasters group, but never found anybody on there. I wanted to talk with, right? He posted that he was interested in talking about his two and a half year old daughter passing away. And I was just like, I'm going to talk to you. So I reached out and I don't know this guy's a veteran or civilian. It doesn't matter. He has a story and so I ended up connecting with him. He's on my podcast. By the time we have the podcast, now I've lost my son. Now my wife almost died. Now we're going to have the podcast. My life completely changed. Now I, I don't know this going in because we didn't talk much. He's very busy and he runs multiple businesses and a podcast of his own. Turns out he is a veteran, but He had gotten out of the military and this was his civilian life and that's when all this chaos happened he ended up losing his marriage and All of these things happened to him and now all this stuff that's happened to me just recently I'm able to pour this out which for me that was just a civilian because again I didn't know this guy and I I didn't know he's a veteran but I would have poured my heart out on a Podcast with a civilian just as much because again you just you got to put yourself in these communities in the space where these conversations will happen and I assure you, know, somebody will be willing to talk to you and share with you deep things that they wouldn't necessarily just go run to a veteran because they're a veteran. I want somebody who's been through something. And if you've been through something as a civilian, put that on social media and it might be a veteran that reaches out to you and goes, man, like, I want to talk to you. I don't need to talk to somebody who's been to Iraq. I need to talk to somebody who just lost a child. That's the person I need to speak with. That's how you stop somebody from making terrible decisions. Yeah, Jason Roncoroni and I wrote a 400 page book on military transition, on the stuff that's not covered in CAP, on the psychological relational identity related factors about transition. And one of the points that he made that I thought was so important is that if you think that the only people you can connect with are other veterans, then you've excluded 99 % of the population. If 1 % of Americans serve in the military, that's a very shrunken social network. I mean, I'm all for like keeping in touch with the tribe and that's a source of resilience and support and elasticity to keep in touch with your tribe. But if that's the only people you connect with, then you're really limiting yourself from the kinds of growth transformation. human connection, intimacy, emotional intimacy here I'm talking about with people that have gone through things that can teach you something and you can teach them something. So I think it's wonderful that you made that connection that you would have been willing if you was a civilian just to talk about the nature of that trauma. mean, pain is pain and trauma is trauma. And it's just somebody that you have been through something similar to you. And that's the reality. yet, like I got out, I left the military in 2005. Now I went back to Iraq and I've done things as a police officer. I've done dangerous jobs, but the reality is most of the people, I was a recruiter too. And I had to recruit people who had combat experience to be bodyguards. actually was a recruiter for bodyguards to Iraq and Kabul. And, and so I knew the 2009, 2010 was a cutoff. Most people aren't getting combat deployments after that. So it's this limited pool of people who have that experience. And so you, you're talking about the 1%, right? That's 1 % of, of military total. Now let's cut it down to how many people are left that have combat experience. Now let's cut it down to what's the special ops guys who have combat experience. Right. already cutting it to 1 % of 1 % of 1 % of how many times you're going to do that? You're going to, it's going to be you by yourself sitting in a room. Like you're left with almost nobody because those guys aren't looking to talk about it either. So it's, it's very difficult if you're just going to focus on people just like you. And I think also that's a big part of what's wrong with our entire country right now with the divided. I get it. We can all blame the algorithm. We can all blame a lot of things that are absolutely to blame for it. However, There's still the reality, the person next door to me right now, I don't know who he voted for, but I know that if I need help and he's gonna put my trash can out tonight while I'm doing a podcast and I'm gonna do the same thing for him later on in the week because that's what we do. He doesn't have to be a veteran to do that. It doesn't matter. And you just need to make these connections. Yeah, I agree. And I also think it's the wrong thinking for people to say the only person I can open up to is a veteran, because I've also seen sometimes, you know, veterans go into doing therapy and some of them are wonderful. And, you know, all things being equal, they have an easier time building trust, obviously, because there's some commonality. But the other side of it is also that sometimes when you've had some similar experiences, You infer that other people feel and think the same because of those experiences and you will miss the truth of their story. Because I have not had those experiences, but I understand a lot of stories, it's actually a tactical advantage to talk to somebody like me because there's no risk of me saying, yeah, I know exactly how that feels and kind of interjecting my own story into someone else's story. So I think if you have somebody who has their own kind of healer warrior spirit and they haven't served, that can be a really wonderful experience. And like I said, I'm not the only 'Doc. Like that's, you know, a title that I... I've been given and I really it's an honor to have that title but I have met other docs in this journey. Some are embedded in military units. Some military units are getting it right. There's some wonderful leaders. I'm working with three sheriffs that are wonderful progressive sheriffs that want me to build stuff for them that's not check the box. So there's some exceptions to. this sense of everybody's missing everything, that's not the truth either. And so I think part of it is people need to be willing to take some risks with some civilians who maybe have something to offer. Absolutely, 100 % believe that. I learned in law enforcement, I would say, what you just described about not trying to put your... I know exactly how you feel. Number one thing you never say to somebody. As a police officer, you learn that in the police academy. If you don't, you learn it later on in some better advanced training. And it's so true. And even a police officer coming to you and being like, listen, man, I know what you're going through. No one on earth knows what you're going through. My buddy who now is my buddy, he lost a two and a half year old. I don't know what he's going through. I lost a child that wasn't born yet. He does not know what I'm going through. At the same time, it's close enough that I get loss is loss. when I said that before, loss is loss and trauma is trauma. But every loss is different and every trauma is different. And so just because I've been hazed and you were hazed too when you in your unit wrote that we're not going to sit here and like compare hazing and or compare like this or that and go tit for tat. And unfortunately, I think that that was that's an experience a lot of people veterans have when they're talking to somebody and it ends up being like this competition and chest beating of who's the who's had it worst And so that's where they shell up and they don't talk. And unfortunately, if you're If you're so entrenched in that mindset, which I think happens the longer that you're in the military, right? Somebody who's retiring after 20, 25 years versus somebody who only did six years, obviously it's easier for me to transition mentally as, hey, now I'm a civilian. I can't just introduce myself as a Ranger everywhere I go for the rest of my life, even though I threw it as the title of my podcast. It's the only thing anybody wants to hear about. Yeah. yeah, okay, wanna go around introducing, cause there'll be mass confusion. Yeah. Again, I really just wanted you to share about your book and I can't wait to read it. just wanted to be able to share with you like your book is super impactful and it is complete. and it leaves questions open for you to think of on your own. And again, everybody's experience is different. So every answer to that question is going to be totally different. And that's where you can connect with other people who have read the book. That's where I think the power of sharing this book because that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to buy multiple copies. I'm going to share it with other veterans. The medic that I'm talking about, that was one of my very first thoughts. was like, I'm going to share this book with him and it's going to be a Christmas gift. could already or might make it a little bit earlier. A And that's a way to open that door back up where he may not want to talk about that and he may not be interested in this or that, but man, that's an easy way to reach somebody. So. things I'm thinking about doing, which maybe you tell me if you think this is a bad idea, but people who write a book really love an honest question. know, like if you're really reading the book and you have a question, I will never say, oh, I'm too busy to, know, it's actually like a wonderful thing when you're an author, when you see that people are reading and really like thinking about and working through. something because of something you've offered for them to think through. So I hope people won't hold back on that. And I'm thinking one of the other really best ways to support a book's visibility is early reviews. And so if I don't have time and I'm not going to be out there saying, please review my book more than I have to. But what I'm thinking to do is if anybody sends me a snapshot of their review that they did to sort of like I did this review to support this book, then I will put them on a list and invite all of them to a live Q &A and ask me anything session, like a month or maybe a month and a half after the book comes out, so that they can, whatever questions they have, then it's an ask me anything forum about this or anything I've written or whatever questions on their mind. to return the favor, you know, because those reviews on Amazon are so important. So do you think that's a good idea? 100%, 100%, that's a phenomenal idea. I'll be there. I'm going to be there for sure. Yep. it in the podcast and let people know that I'm good for it. I'm gonna do that for people who just email me a picture of the review you put of my book. mean, hopefully it's not like a four star, you know, those are always like, what, you know, like, what did I get wrong? Like, you know, or, or like, or like those anonymous, like, you know, one star, like, I don't know, like, there's always a couple people you're like, what? What, you don't even identify here. The review is like one star and it says, couldn't find parking near the front. You're like, you're thinking about Chipotle. This is not the same review you're meaning to leave. Yeah, no, there's really it's not been a big thing at all. Not a big pattern, but there's always one or two people that are like. do see the four stars and people are like, fantastic, I love this book, it's really changed my life, four stars and I'm like. yes. That's what I'm talking about. It's like, this is the best book I've written on the topic. Four stars. Then what's a five star review, dude? You know, like, I'm not saying it's perfect. But like that studs exactly. If you look at my other books and the four star reviews, it's like, that's a really nice review. So anyway, but whatever people do post is up to them, obviously. And the support is very helpful and I would be happy to do an Ask Me Anything session for people that do that. That's a phenomenal idea. And again, that's thinking outside the box. Now you know who's read the book. Guess who you could have a conversation with. Guess who could now start a little group and then they could regularly talk about the other books. 100%. Yep. I will be there for that too. So yeah. Yep. Yeah. something that's like gonna get people connected again. And whether they whether we you know, it's they're gonna connect with each other, regardless, and people that haven't known each other that have something to offer to each other, like, that's essentially a part of my work is helping facilitate the reforging of the tribe. And so that's a lot of why I do what I do is trying to bring those people back into connection. Cause I know that when we connect, we survive. Absolutely. The civilian I talked about, I'm going to have a conversation with her and I'm going to tell her, you need to buy this book, you need to be here in a week, in a month and a half. And this is where you're to connect with all those veterans that you're looking to help. I know this needs to be out on the 12th because your book launches March 12th. So make sure to pre-order order it, make sure everybody to leave a five star. actually, they go to five. I think that's the confusion. They don't realize there's five stars. So let's assume that. So five star reviews and pass it on, right? Share it with somebody. That is how you make a difference right there. Thank you. Appreciate your support. I really do. Absolutely. God bless. Thank you.