Green Beret: Men Mocking Weakness is Killing the BEST in SPEC OPS

  ** Watch Full Video on YT in 4K **

MEN ARE DYING IN SILENCE, IN THIS EPISODE NICK SHARES THE STIGMA(S) KILLING THEM! 


In this episode of Old Ranger New Dad, Seth Ryan sits down with Nick O’Kelly—former Special Forces, Army aviator, and 160th SOAR (“Night Stalkers”)—for a conversation every man needs to hear.

Nick breaks down a brutal truth most people avoid:
The danger isn’t only what men are carrying internally… it’s how other men respond when someone finally admits they’re struggling. The jokes. The mockery. The “man up” culture. The silent stigma that convinces strong men to stay quiet until it’s too late.

Nick shares his personal battle with anxiety, panic, depression, intrusive thoughts, and the “high performer mask”—how you can be excelling on the outside while internally falling apart. He also honors the brotherhood he came up with, including Bryan Gray, a man who embodied strength and grit… and still lost his life.

This episode is raw, honest, and practical—especially for:

Veterans, law enforcement, and first responders
High-performing men who don’t feel “allowed” to struggle
Wives/families trying to support a man who’s shutting down
Anyone who wants to be the kind of friend who actually helps
In this episode, we cover:
How stigma starts early (even in training) and follows men for life
Why “performance” becomes camouflage for pain
The real difference between toughness and silence
What to say (and what not to say) when a man opens up
Marriage under pressure—and what helped Nick and his wife endure
Tools that helped: honesty, therapy, accountability, and rebuilding purpose
How to check on your people without making it weird

IF YOU ARE A MAN WHO FEELS TRAPPED BEHIND YOUR OWN IMAGE? This Episode is for you!
And if a man in your life says he's “fine”… but you’re pretty sure he really isn't fine — watch this episode carefully!

        - Time Stamps - 
0:00 Intro / Meet Nick O’Kelly
3:50 Nick’s background: Special Forces → Army Aviation → Special Operations 160th SOAR "Night Stalkers"
8:20 “High performance” as a mask for mental health
11:40 Why Nick got out + the hidden cost of pushing nonstop
14:00 The culture of stigma: men mocking weakness
16:10 Bryan Gray—brotherhood, loss, and why the book exists
21:00 Why asking for help feels terrifying
27:20 The ripple effect: what happens after suicide
33:00 Insomnia, chronic stress, panic, and the mental trap
45:50 Timeline: when it started and how long it lasted
53:20 Marriage under pressure + what actually helped
59:20 Tools that helped: therapy, meds, awareness, and rebuilding
1:13:15 “I was a good man in a storm…” — breaking it down
1:25:00 Where stigma starts (the “shoelaces” lesson)
1:44:00 Final message: pick up the phone

 #OldRangerNewDad #NickOKelly #MensMentalHealth #VeteranPodcast #SpecialForces #160thSOAR #NightStalkers #SuicidePrevention #Brotherhood #PTSD #Leadership #Marriage #Fatherhood 

Transcript

3:09

Nick, the Nick O'Kelly, I do love that you use that 'THE Nick O'Kelly. And I, when I searched for you I saw there's another Nick O'Kelly So I understand why you had to do that. ah But I'm super grateful not only just to meet you and to have built a little bit of a relationship so far, know, I want the things that I've learned from you and from your book and specifically the dedication of your book Stigmas. So I don't like to do chat GPT introductions like a lot of podcasts do. I know that there's things about you that chat doesn't have. So if you would just kind of give us a little bit of an intro just very quickly, as far as we know what's in your background. We know that night stockers is behind you and the special forces, but for those civilians that don't necessarily know if you can give a brief intro and we'll go from there, brother. For sure. Yeah. So I got out just for like where I'm at now. I'll start with that. I got out in 2023. So I was born in Western Washington, Seattle area grew up there till went to college and I went to Spokane for college in Washington. So Eastern Washington. I'm just going to breeze over it just so you're aware. So you can dig back into anything you want, but long story short, college wasn't for me. I was just young, dumb, immature, you know, and kind of went off the rails. So I ended up dropping out and had to figure out what to do with my life. And, um, I had some exposure to the military cause I was an ROTC in college. So decided to go talk to a recruiter and potentially trying to go aviation right off the bat and go straight to seat It ended up not working out. I signed an 18 X-ray contract, which is the special forces recruit. And it gives you the opportunity to go to special forces selection. So ended up going SF and spent about the first 5 years of my career in the SF world. And then, um, made the jump to aviation, went flew blackhawks helicopters, and then, uh, spent about a year, year and half in the regular army. And then ended up assessing and going to the _ 160th. special operations aviation Regiment, which is the premier aviation unit in the world and spent the rest of my career there, I medically retired in 2023. So I did 13 years total and now live in Charlotte and I am a wealth manager. So I own a financial planning company and then obviously doing all this stuff on the, on the side as well, you know, advocating for mental health and talking about special forces and lessons learned and just my career. and trying to pass that on to the younger generation. So yeah. outstanding brother. Well, as far as family, you have a family, you've been married, you have kids. Yup. Been married 13 years now. So we got married right when I graduated the Q course the day after. and then we got pregnant pretty quick. So I have an 11 year old boy and a 9 year old daughter. Yeah. that's _ of the things that I always like to point out, especially for guys who have made it through the rough times, making it through the Q course and then getting married the next day. That that's wild because, the marriage rate and the divorce rate in special forces in the 160 and anything in special operations. But anything where you're carrying a gun, really the grunts, it's the same in the Marine Corps, like that that type of life is very much about you giving your time and devotion to the country. And not many marriages can last through that. So that is a absolute tip of the cap to you, because a lot of things that we've been through Ranger Regiment Special Forces, you can gut your way through it. And if you get hurt, you can. heal up and retry. Marriage isn't like that. Marriage takes two. Awesome. So what, what I want to just say real quick on behalf of me is I'm on this journey as a podcaster to share these amazing stories from amazing people that I meet. And you are _ of those people. And the lesson I learned from my wife who has an, a following She has become such great friends with people that she hasn't met in person. from all over the nation that for years now have been in the trenches with her in the comments, you know, helping each other out. Anybody who's interested in doing podcasting, man, I haven't ever met you in person, but man, I absolutely am loving everything you're putting out in your YouTube shorts and your YouTube videos that are kind of more short over a topic, the Ranger school _. I'm going to have to do a, I'm going to have to record a YouTube video talking about Ranger school what it's like from the Ranger Regiment, Because you do not get a choice coming from the Regiment. And I went through with several special forces guys So I don't have your book behind me because I've got tabs and it's highlighted all in and out. Pick up his book. It's also an audible. And that is phenomenal because again, you are the _ who's reading your book. You know, when those voice inflections, it makes it come to life. I'm also going to buy it on audible so I can actually listen to you tell your own story. stigma is the name of your book for a reason. who is. Bryan Gray and what did you guys go through together? Yeah. So I'll start with why I got out and then I'll get into Bryan. So I, the whole, the whole theme of the book is there are so many of us that do so much and have such high standards, high performance and do really well in life. Right. Then underneath we're masking how we're feeling and what's going on internally. And we're masking that by our performance and by our pushing and by our pushing. And that's our M.O. and we just keep doing it. We keep freaking doing it. And it got to the point for me where there were like serious mental health repercussions. And, yeah, the, the self-deletion ideations, depression, anxiety, everything just kind of grabbed a hold of me. And my answer for it was to keep pushing, just keep going. Right. what's the next, what's the next milestone that I can hit and then I'll be free of this. And then I hit that milestone. Obviously nothing happens. Right. And that was the overall theme of what happened. But the, the reason I got out of the military and why I eventually got medically retired is because I finally got knee surgery at _ point in my career. I was always a runner and I would run like, I got to the point where I couldn't run more than half a mile without it just being excruciating pain. and I was still doing it. I was like, screw it. I'm still going to run, but it was just so painful, man. Um, so I got it x-rayed MRI and they found like a defect in my knee. So I had a whole board out of my knee. So it was basically like bone on bone, that they had to go plug. So long story short, the knee surgery grounded me from flying. So I had been dealing with this stuff for I guess four years at this point. So 2016 is when it started knee surgery was in 2021. So I guess, yeah, almost 5 years. And, um, what the knee surgery did was it gave me permission to kind of open the door about the mental health stuff because the consequences of not flying weren't there anymore. Right. So I initially positioned it as, I'm having these dizzy spells to the doc and let's figure out why. You know, so I didn't like disclose the self-deletion ideations To be honest, I was just scared. I was scared of the repercussions. I was scared, you know, that my life was going to be over and my career was going to be shot So that was the justification. eventually throughout that, me opening the door, it ended up finally diagnosing me after like a two year period, literally of going through medical tests. with anxiety, panic disorder, PTSD, depression, all the above. And it was the nail in the coffin. they got to a point where they were like, you can either continue to be grounded for another year while we figure this out and get you, you know, in a good spot, or you can get medically retired. And at that point, man, I was so burnt out I was just done. I was like, all right, see you later. Thank you. Had a great career. appreciate it, but I'm ready to move on So that's, that's how I got out of our military. That's why I got out of the military. was, a long mental health fight the weird thing is I am extremely blessed that I went through it. I didn't obviously at the time, I didn't think that or feel that, but I wouldn't be who I am today because of all that. So, so that's it. That's the getting out. The Bryan Gray piece. So we went through basic training together and special forces selection And me and him were like brothers in the Q course. he, he took his life in November, 2024. And man, he's just, he was the guy that like, when you're low crawling in the mud, like he's cracking jokes, you know, he's ear to ear smile. He is always optimistic, always looking out for his boys, always like selfless, you know, and just, just such a good dude. And I know for a fact that what he was dealing with is what I was dealing with, you know, and it just got _ level further. You know what I mean? And I was at that point many times in my life where I was terrified that it was going to happen. that my thoughts were just going to get too much. So that's why I dedicated the book to him because on the outside man, he was an absolute stud and he is an absolute stud, but it got him, you know, and it doesn't mean he's a weak person. Doesn't mean anything like that, that the military views people as oftentimes or the culture does, I guess is a better way to say it as weak, right? Or as less than if they're struggling. And that's why he didn't feel like he could get help. just like I didn't feel like I could. So I'm trying to change that. I'm trying to change that narrative that like, you're not sure. You might be going through something. You might be struggling. You might be having a moment of weakness. It doesn't make you a weak person, you know? It doesn't change your character. It doesn't change who you actually are and who you want to be. So yeah, I want people to be able to get help, whatever that looks like, without feeling like they can't. So that's it. That's, that's, that's powerful brother. And, _, I have so many thoughts that just came to mind because of all the examples. And I'm going to, I'm going to tell you, there is no place on earth that is more, the, where the stigma resided and flourished than there was in, in the Ranger Regiment when I was in. And when I say that, I mean, if you were _-on-one with a guy, He was understanding and, he would be cool with you. But the second that the pack of Rangers got together, it was absolute feast on any weakness. And it didn't matter if you weren't even showing weakness, they were going to pick on the weakest, the smallest, the newest person. And just it ended up building a culture where the, when I first arrived, they told me, said, Hey, just so you know, People do die in car wrecks, but the leading cause of death in battalion is Self-Deletion. we're talking about in service. these kids are, cutting their wr*st in their room to try to not have to go to formation again. And this is the point that I want to set on for a second. The fear that you have in your soul that you would rather take your life than to appear to be weak or for even a moment be stared at by all those men and they're judging you as being the weak _. A lot of times I've heard people that have been in prison talk about this culture of everyone is looking at all times to just annihilate anybody and it It's not that bad, but at the same time, it makes you want to harm yourself. And we'll get into what you went through just in basic training and seeing the guys with no shoelaces, because I experienced the same thing and I've seen that both in the army and in the Marine Corps. Right. And it is, it is _ of those things that for young men that are not prepared. A lot of men will cry the first night that they're in bootcamp. Now you're not sleeping for like the first, I think it was like maybe 36 hours. We were awake all that night, all that day. And sometime late that night, we finally got to sleep and it was that pressure, that initial just jolt of pressure. And I was confused because I felt like, man, this is it. this is what I expected, but this isn't what everybody was expecting. And that didn't mean that I was stronger than them. That just literally meant I was kind of already expecting that a little bit. Right. how many did you guys go on combat deployments together? Were you guys stationed different places? No. So once, once we graduated the Q course, we split ways. yeah, he ended up going to, I went to first group in Okinawa. and then he went to group and then he got out, I think he did like four years in group and then got out and, um, went into law enforcement. I got a story about him just to, uh, just to honor him and like show, show what kind of bad-a$$ dude he was, man. Because He was definitely like the best of us. so in SFAS in selection, special forces selection, do the land nav course. So land nav is you have to find four points in 12 hours, basically start at night and they're long movements. have a heavy rock on your back, 45 pounds dry. So it's usually 55 ish pounds with water. And, um, you have _ night to do it. If you pass the first night, at least this is when I went through a change a little bit now, but If you pass the first night, the second night, you didn't have to go out. If you didn't get all four points the first night, you had to go out the second night and do it again. So we all start whatever time it is, know, dead at night. I don't know. We all heard this story in retrospect, obviously we didn't like witness it because you go off on your own in land -nav but apparently going to Bryan's first point, he fell into like his leg fell into a snake hole. So I brag, there's tons of just snake holes everywhere or just pits in the ground that you can, fall into. So _ leg goes in, his other leg keeps going and his body keeps going. And he fell on a stump with all his weight, everything, the rock and everything. Apparently he broke multiple ribs on literally going to his first point. This guy, man, still finished the star course. I think he was like the, he was Definitely in the top 5 to finish. It was either second or third to finish the entire star course with whatever it was, two or three broken ribs, just huffing and puffing, but still just grinding dude. And that's the kind of dude he was, you know, he was like, I'll just push through. I'll just f*cking push through. I can deal with it. and that's who he was, man. And that's, yeah, just embodies like what a green beret is, you know, to the core. So. Yeah, man, it was just the perfect example of an amazing person falling into that trap, you know, and just getting caught and getting the best of them. And the interesting thing on top of that, that you said that I didn't know before this podcast, because again, a lot of this information I'm learning, this is the first time I've heard it, being former law enforcement myself, I may have the toxicity that exists, not just your departments, we're talking about in the job itself, where you are going to a call, you are wanting to do good. And then the law is literally handcuffing you from doing good. That is what absolutely ate me up inside the toxicity and the culture and some, especially the stigmas, both in the Marine Corps, going through infantry school, all that doing grunt stuff. And then getting into the Regiment and how over the top insane, there was just no rules back then, as long as they were still. breathing and and they weren't too broken. You're probably good. law enforcement, though, the the job in and of itself does it to you. It doesn't take it doesn't take any additional stigmas from the fellow police officers. But absolutely, that's there, too. So it's a compounding effect where in combat you can go out and do a good thing. Jessica Lynch rescued my very first mission. I come back from that. I'm feeling on top of the world. Yeah. my job was phenomenal that day. My job was phenomenal. Now I come back and yeah, I'm getting haze and then we're everybody's treating each other like crap again, but that's okay because I know that when the lights are on, well, ironic, the lights are off obviously do night work, but when it's game time, when you're actually out doing combat missions and you're, doing what you're training for all that kind of fades away. sure. Yep. That's not there in law enforcement in law enforcement that that's the worst part is really the calls you're going on the real human victims that you are seeing victimized that you actually can't help. You're calling 9 _ _. I'm showing up 5 minutes after Now I'm just reporting and taking pictures of what happened before I was there. And that will, that, that is _ of the things in my mission. is to shed light on the stigmas because the life expectancy of a law enforcement officer is 5 years after retirement. That number blows your mind when you actually are in the job. didn't. I was just like, okay, yeah, I've heard that stat before. No, bro. When you're in there and you're looking at the guys that are about to retire and you're going 5 years, man, on average. Five years. Are you going to be the guy that makes it 10? And then who's only making it six months? You know, and and and I worked in in a in a job where somebody took their life before they came to work because they were about to retire. And I was like, wait a minute, they didn't. It's so backwards. the worlds that we've lived in. And I really want to get into your book, so I'm not going to sit here and just rehash my stories. One of the things you say here is, you know, this, this book is a vow to break stigmas that took you speaking to Bryan Gray, that others may be saved. And I think that is, bro, that, chokes me up when I, when I read it and it chokes me up now, because there's so many people out there that deserve To take a minute and call somebody to, to reach out for help from those guys, those women that are around you, that have been around you. You haven't talked to them in a while. I promise you, if you are going through something and you pick up the phone and call them, they're going to make time for you and they're going to want to help you. They're not going to want to judge you, but that's what we tell ourselves. Yup. It's, mean, it's _ of the hardest things in the world to do though, is to lay down your pride and be vulnerable, you know, and admit that you got something going on. It's just, it literally is probably the hardest thing I ever did in my life, you know, was like, screw it. I'm just going to talk about it and tell people about it. Like, man, I had no idea how it was going to come out. I had no idea how it was going to be responded to. You know, I had no idea if I was just going to get, you know, abolished from my old communities. You know what I mean? I had no idea. So it's super scary to take that leap. But it's a big, but there's so much freedom in that once you do. And once you realize like, oh, okay. Like people, like you said, people do want to help. when they realize like, my God, dude, I didn't, I had so many people reach out dude, I had no idea you were going through anything. And I'm like, I know, like that was the point. I didn't want you to, like I was, I'm glad you didn't because I didn't want you to, like I was trying to do everything, you know, in my power that nobody would know. But, the reality is that doesn't lead to good things, you know? And if you stay in that rut and you don't do anything about it, man, it just gets worse. It does not get better. So. It takes courage. It really does. It takes courage to put yourself out there, but it's powerful once you do. It's powerful once you just say, screw it. My life is more important than my pride. I'm going for it. That's awesome. And something you say, or the story, right? Rock bottom, chapter _, you're talking about you in this moment and you are considering, you know, committing Self-Deletion, self deletion, as we have to say on the internet, you're thinking about it. And you literally say you were being taunted by your pistol. That, that shows how dark. that moment was for you and the fact that you understand now that stigmas and the shame is what, absolutely nobody talks about. And if you're going through any of the, if you're trying to get off of alcohol, drugs, explicit Internet material, corn, we have to call it corn on the Internet. All of that, shame is always _ of the hidden factors that nobody will even utter because nobody wants to admit that they're so ashamed of how they feel that that is what that's what drives marriages apart. That's what ends families. all the time and nobody will ever address it because they don't want to admit that they were weak to that other partner. And I've, I've gone through, you know, I haven't drink alcohol. know I'm the weirdo didn't drink. So at least I, kept myself from that _. Same thing with, with drugs. Now my, my alcoholic grandfather, So he, he committed Self-Deletion and he did that. I was actually scheduled to preach a sermon to a small congregation. And that was like on a Friday night, I believe is when, when he had taken, taken himself out and like he, I, I learn of this and I've already built out this whole sermon. I've got all the, I've got the timing down. I've got the verses written. I know exactly what I'm talking about. It's not a hard, it's not a hard topic. I immediately switched gears and I dig through the Bible, pour through the concordance to find verses. I need to understand more about this because I have other family members that had committed Self-Deletion before I was born that I never even got to meet. And as a police officer, I'm there when people commit Self-Deletion, having to, you know, write everything down and take pictures of them and talk to their family members and all of that really took a huge toll on me because I was a police officer when I was about to preach the sermon and something I want to share with everybody right now talking about talking about Self-Deletion. I truly believe this because I've seen it happen a million times and it happened to me and it happened to my family, which is Even if you're, even if your grandfather, which my grandfather was not a good person, not even by a long stretch, he was a terrible person actually, unfortunately, but he was still my grandfather. And I remember him. And when I was a little kid, he was, I loved that guy because he bought me a cowboy hat _ time, right? He, every time that I saw him, he would always give me something, but it wasn't a thing. He wasn't giving me money. He was giving me something that had value and that kind of represented him too, cause he lived in Texas and wore a cowboy hat. and lived on a farm and ran a ranch. And when he when he committed Self-Deletion, he didn't take, let me phrase this the right way. He didn't take the pain that he had out of the world. Right. Right. not take that pain away. This is the part most people don't understand. He simply spread it to everyone that knew him. Yeah. Yup. and this is an analogy I like to use, right? We've learned already that if you burn a piece of wood, that piece of wood has just changed material. It's now turned into heat. It's turned into ash. That energy still exists. It's just changed form. That's exactly in my belief and my experience and everything that I've been through and seen happen firsthand. That's what happens when you think that you are just going to get out of this, your, your words. I want to actually use them your belief is that if you just take yourself out of the equation, it'll just be done. You won't have to worry about the confusion. You won't have to worry about the nightmares. No more struggling, no more shame. It's right there in that part of your book, very first page, chapter _. You just thought if you. drove at a high enough speed and smashed into something that that pain would disappear, but it doesn't. It's spread to your family, to every friend you've ever had that hears of it. And then for every, and this is the part that nobody talks about for every brother that was out there that you did not call. Bro. That is, there is no more painful thing I could imagine. Then _ of my close brothers that I served with who could have picked up the phone at any time and called me and worst yet, I could have called him. I should have been checking on him. I should have been doing this. And now that guilt is on me for the rest of my life. And every time I think of you, talk of you, every time I see posts about you and I make posts, remembering your date of birth, when you passed, that's a new date that goes on my beret's calendar for the rest of my life. And it's a regret and it's, so painful when you take yourself out of the equation, man, it's, it's, you're not taking yourself out. You're just passing that off to other people. It's, it's a hundred percent of ripple effect. And I mean, _ thing that kept me the biggest thing, the biggest factor that kept me going. And every time I got close to it, you know, and I said, that I'm not doing it was my kids, man. You know, just like, look at even this, even the statistics on like the likelihood of kids committing Self-Deletion in the future whose parents did it. Like, I think it triples. I forget it's in the book somewhere, but it's, I've heard that statistic before. And I heard like that hearing that statistic legitimately is _ of the big factors that kept me going. Like that kept me from being like now, like, screw that dude, like, it's not just about me, you know, even though this sucks more than anything in the world, like, it's not it's not about me, you know, and I just got to figure out a way through it so that I can be there. And it worked out. Thank God. you back to that moment because you said you're, you're, you're creating this, this moment for us where you're sitting there. You have the gun. You start taking it apart. You said your mind was the stuff of nightmares. And the reason why I want to ask you about this is because. I won't go into the whole story, but I was sitting there, fourth of July or something. And, a guy who was a Vietnam veteran is there. I don't know him. He's friends of friends and he's there. And he's talking about something and it's good to get out and people are maybe asking about the fireworks and you know, he's a veteran and they know he has PTSD. Evidently. I don't know this because I don't know him. And we start a conversation because somebody goes, well, yeah, Seth was this. Seth was in the military too. And so we start talking and immediately he says, He starts describing how hard it is to sleep and to deal with what he had to go through without going into detail. And he looks at me and he just says, well, I don't have to tell you, you already know all about that. That moment, I was weak. That moment, I didn't have the spine. to say anything to him. And I wish I could go back in time and find that guy. And I need to look up my friends and find out who that was because I really should have said, like, brother, there's help out there. There's people that you can talk to. You should get involved in a community. Talk to other veterans so that you can work through some of those things. because I didn't have the things that this guy was describing. But I did, the coward thing, I just smiled and nodded and let him believe that, yeah, I was going through that too and look at me. I'm fit, I look well rested. And that's what I love about your book. Your book is you not doing that. That's... That's what this is. This is you not sitting there smiling and pretending like I'm in shape. I look good on on videos. I because that what that says to the guy who's watching it, who's really in that moment and struggling is, well, look, here's this guy. He was both. He wasn't just infantry like me. He was special forces and a night stalker. He's he's he's built different. He's cut out of a different cloth. I'm weak. I can't do what he can do and your whole message is that's not true. And that's why I wrote it down, man, because I was like, you know, well, _, it's the book that I wish I had, you know, when I was going through it. So it was in some ways it was that it was like a therapeutic process for me of just like getting all the crap out, you know, and being like, why did this happen? You know what I mean? And kind of like re diagnosing everything from a 30,000 foot view while when I was out of it. And then also that, you know, I was like, man, if I, if I can have the balls to, to just lay down my pride, as ironic as that sounds even, you know, and hopefully, hopefully what I did in the military and my reputation and my accolades, if you will, will add that factor that you just described. So that was very intentional. And that was part of the like, the driver behind it, right? It's like, I can do it. You know, I can, I can be that guy and I can be a, you know, like I did hard things in the military. It's awesome, but like still a human being, you know, like, and we all are, we all are. And it's okay. It's okay to just be, be a human being that can still do hard things, you know? Yeah. So, let me ask you this, as far as your, I don't wanna hear a detailed description of your nightmares, but tell me what it's like when you're having to go without sleep because you dread going to sleep. And just kind of give us an idea as to how many hours of sleep you're getting for how long, roughly. Well, it's like the worst cycle because when you're in this like fight or flight mode and you have your, you feel like your thoughts, you feel like you're under attack for internally. And the only thing, literally the only thing that gives you reprieve is sleeping and you can't, it is the most frustrating and paralyzing thing in the world. I'm never going to get out of this cycle because I know how important sleep is. I can't sleep and sleep is the only thing that's kind of given me peace, you know? So you can't. it's just like, so to your question though, it, I don't, it was probably between four and six hours. It depended. Like it was, I was in flight school. So we had, you know, early mornings where we woke up at 4 a.m. and had to be on the flight line or be at the flight line at 4 a.m. you know, so it was just like all screwed up circadian rhythm, which obviously in aviation happens, but, But yeah, was just all this compounding factors that just kept me trapped. And ironically, none of my nightmares, like it wasn't PTSD. It wasn't, it was just chronic stress and just me being the type of person that pushes hard no matter what. and does not, did not at the time give myself any time to recover. Never did, never even thought about it. Never even thought I needed it. Right. Because I had never had mental health issues. I, to be fair, I ingrained those stigmas. I believe those stigmas. Right. And that's probably why it kept me captured so long because I truly believe them. I truly believed like I'm freaking weak now. Right. And like, if I talk about this, I'm going to burden everybody and lose my reputation, lose my career, whatever, all those things. I believed them. So it just exasperated when it happened to me, you know, how, badly ingrained it got and how much I just reinforced those negative thoughts because I looked at it as something like I had to fix and control right now. Like, is wrong with me? What the hell do I need to do to get out of this? And I just obsessed over trying to fix them. And it just got worse and worse. I don't know if I answered your question, but that's, yeah. the point, the, that last point, I want to drive that home because the reality is what you're telling yourself inside your head is not what is really matched to the rest of the world. And especially when you're at that level, when you are in special ops, everyone else is smiling. This, I have to go back to Bryan Gray. said you're crawling through the mud. He's cracking jokes. You're freezing. You're miserable. He's still got a big grin on his face. That was me from time to time, but that was Kristoffer Domeij That was my Ranger -Buddy in Ranger school. All of the misery and hypothermia I went through going through winter phase in Ranger school was worth it because I was within _ arm's length of _ of the best men that I've ever met in my life. And I've never, I haven't even posted about this. Like my wife and I lost our son and I re I named him Kristoffer after Domeij And I haven't even told his family that. uh But it was, It's so amazing when you're around those people. Now, Domeij died in a firefight in Afghanistan. I found this out a couple of years after, I think it was like a year after he had passed. And I was in law enforcement and I didn't reach out to reconnect with him because I was waiting until I had accomplished something that then once I get into the FBI and once I can get onto the HRT team or once I get into whatever the ATF secret service, us Marsh, whoever, I thought I was going to get out of the military, get my degree and then get back in and redeploy, but make way more money, way better accommodations and not, you know, be going through all the hazing. I would be a professional. And, and then I see his face and it pops up on Google and I'm like, I know that face. He has way more hair now, but I know that face with that. This doesn't make sense. says killed in action. No, no, no, no. And I, and I click on it because it was just faces and I just typed in army Ranger and it just popped a million faces and _, it was real small. The reality is we are great in special ops. One of the factors that makes you a good candidate to make it in any special operations that you want to try out for you have to be able to mask your pain and you have to use humor. You don't have to, but the best use humor to cope. And the reason why it's the best is if _ of those, just _ guy is in your group and he is that class clown. He elevates everybody's attitude. All the misery you guys are going through. You're doing log PT, you're in freezing rain, everybody's in hypothermia. In Ranger school, were in, it was a pre Ranger, so it's all actual rangers going through a miniaturized three week Ranger school course where they throw everything at you that you're gonna go through in Ranger school, but way harder because it's actual rangers. We were all freezing to death and we had gotten like an hour or two of sleep and we get up in the morning. All of our canteens are frozen ice. We all get together and everybody starts like huddling up in this big pack of Yep. We get the inferno going and somebody starts singing. My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard. When I tell you everyone there was singing this song, the r rangers. Our Ranger instructors come out and our Ranger cadre is like, you guys, of course, know, he's obscenities and mocking us, but it didn't, that wasn't phasing us at all because it was, we were having a blast and we knew how absolutely non-masculine this looked of all of us. Those are the moments, brother, that it sounds like Bryan Gray was for you, what Kristoffer Domeij was to me. We could keep each other smiling in the worst. And to lose that guy to Self-Deletion, that that's the part where Kristoffer, he goes out as the hero that he was and everybody gets to remember him and everybody posts about him and. I think _ of the tragedies is the people who are deemed weak and are deemed to have taken the easy way out. I've heard that phrase a million times to have taken The Quitter's way out to have the coward's way out. When you put that stigma on somebody who's dead, they have no way to, to fight back. They cannot get into the comments. and argue with you, they cannot make a rebuttal video. They can't call you out. They just have to, their family just has to absorb all of your insults and all the stigmas you want to throw at him. That's something that I don't think any person, that if you were the type of person who has done that, I hope that you see better that stigmas and humiliating people and trying to make people pretend like everything's okay all the time. Well, I would venture to say that that type of person really needs to look at themselves instead of, you know what I mean? Insulting other people. And we see it all the time on social media. There's so much hate. There's so much negativity out there, you know, and it's, it's usually people projecting their insecurities, you know what I mean? And it's just them trying to hide behind a keyboard and feeling good about themselves because they got to, they think they're powerful for some reason for putting a negative comment. It's ridiculous, but it's sad at the same time how common it is and how many people out there are like, so you know they're not happy. How could you be happy if you're sitting there trying to troll? Unless you're like, this is the _ scenario where I think it's okay. All right. Because I had a friend in the army who would Like, so this is just a random story, but this is an example of when trolling is actually funny. Okay. Because it's not always bad. So we had a, we had a HOA in my old neighborhood in Savannah and there was a Facebook page, of course. Right. And like all the HOA, you know, Karen's are on there and everything. And we would just, we'd be drinking and hanging out and he would just troll the HOA board so bad, but like. beat like pretend like it was serious, you know, and people would get into it. And like, I know he did that other places too. So like, that's _ example where it's like, all right, dude, you're just trying to rile people up. get it. But like in general, man, it's, it's people projecting their problems and trying to hide behind, know, trying to feel powerful, honestly. And to your point, what I, _ thing I left out, the, the officer who had, was a, she who had, committed Self-Deletion before her shift and right before she was going to retire. She was absolutely miserable. She hated everybody at work, hated her. She hated everybody at work. Only a couple of people liked her. And that's cause everybody hated them too. Because they were just like miserable together. Right. And that's what it was. She was trying to push out all this and project all this pain onto other people. And it made her probably forget her pain for the moment while she's mocking and belittling these other people and trying to, you know, get a rise out of them and screw them over or whatever, you know, and it was just entertainment. And, and once again, that's, that's the same coping. You're coping just like people cope with alcohol and people cope with drugs and people choose other ways to cope. being a miserable person online, spending 12 hours a day in people's comments on, you know, X on all these things and just making your little opinion known now to the HOA that's a hundred percent allowed. Absolutely. HOAs are, the, are to be the punching bags, but that's what they earn it. They earn that. I want to, I want to say this. So so you are sitting here back to the book chapter _ and you are taking apart your gun. Now this is the part where I, I sat here, I put your book down and I just sat and thought about this for a little bit, which is why I'm only at the 5 chapters in because there's so much, this is a dense book. It's easy to read and it's gonna be easy if you're 19, 20 years old, you're probably gonna breeze right through this book. And then when you're 30 or 40, you're gonna go back and go, oh, this was 5 times larger than I remember it being. That's because You don't have the life experience to have seen what it's like for a man to go to his wife and tell his wife that she needs to go hide the parts of his pistol and for her eyes to go wide. There's no stigma from any other Ranger. tightens up when you say that, man. Like, I feel it. It's, yeah. That's how, that's how like intense that moment was and scary that moment was, you know? I felt like I was like just naked in front of a million people. You know what I mean? Is, yeah. And how were you able to do that? That's my question that I immediately asked. my, yeah, no, great question. It literally felt like my only option. It felt like if I did not do that, I was done. Like it was going to happen. So it was that felt like it. Yeah. It felt like my lifeline and that happened multiple similar scenarios happened multiple times, but yeah, that's, that's the reason I did it is because it was either this or I'm done. So you're at this point in the book. We don't know what happens before this. If there were prior, you know, Self-Deletion idea, ideolation, I can't even say that word now. We don't know what happened before. So this is the glimpse and we're starting off sprinting. We're at the moment where you are taking apart a gun and asking for help from your wife, which. As I've already said is probably my number _ person that I would never want to ask for help from that. That's the person I would never want to see to see me weak to see that weak side of me. You had already lost Bryan at that point is my question. no. So Bryan, Bryan was actually after I got through everything. It was after I was out of the army. It was after everything. Yeah. So I actually hadn't, I hadn't even been in contact with him for a long time prior to, I actually, found out through the network and then connected with his wife and stuff. And yeah. So I didn't even like, I kind of found out in retrospect and it was after I'd gone through everything. And that's also why it like, impacted me so much was because I got through it, you know, and I was like, dang, man, like you could have, you know, you freaking could have. So that's, yeah. Yeah. You got through all, all these things. what timeline was this you going through this for six months, for a year and a half, for three years? What was, when did it really start? And just how long would you say you were right out of it? Yeah. the story that you were talking about me giving my gun to my wife, that was about two weeks ish after the onset of everything. So it hit me hard and fast. So it was that much like I was terrified for my life and I didn't know what to do. so that was in October, 2016. Um, and then I didn't truly get, feel like I was I didn't talk like get help until 2021 mid 2021. there were, yeah, there were phases. like the first, I would say the first, basically until I got to the _ 160th, I was dealing with those self-deletion ideations, the depression, self-deletion ideations, like in the trenches, you know, just felt like I couldn't get away from it. So that was from 16 to 19. So about three years of that. And then when I got to the _ 160th, it started, it transformed into these like dizzy spells, which ended up being panic attacks, which I had no idea dizzy spells could even be related to mental health, but lo and behold, it was, that was still miserable. It was just a different type of miserable. If you will, you know, I didn't feel, I didn't feel like necessarily my life was in danger every day. but I definitely knew. I wasn't okay. Yeah. So you were in, when did you join, when did you make it through your selection and everything and you're in Okinawa, checked into your group? 2012. And then I went to flight school in 2015. So I did three years on an ODA and then I went to flight school. So all of this happened in aviation. None of this happened at group. Man, I was flying high in group. I was having a great time and crushing it. That's the question is because the last video I just watched of yours was you talking about how awesome it was in the life in group. So it's going to be jarring to go from that to hearing that you're now in this role. You you're sitting here taking your gun apart. Why did you switch then? If you were so happy over there? Great question. And here's the thing. Here's the weirdest thing about this. Okay. Even when I got hit with these, this depression bug, even when it punched me in the face, man, my life was not crappy. And I did not think my life was crappy. There was, it was not, there was no point of time in this at all that I felt like there was a good reason for it. You know, and I felt like I was like a victim and my life was so bad, know, nothing at all. Like almost the opposite. When it happened to me, I was like, this doesn't make any sense because I have an awesome life. have a beautiful wife. I have awesome kids, you know, white picket fence, the whole thing. You know what I mean? Like I had no, no reason for it. Um, so I don't know. I don't know why that happened, but to your question, um, I left group for a couple of reasons. So. The biggest reason was I tried to go aviation when I first joined the army. So tried to go straight to 'seat' it didn't work out. So I kind of had that like bug in the back of my head. And I knew if I went aviation that _, would become a warrant officer right away. So, you know, more pay, better future prospects for that. And then, I'd have a good skill if I got out of the military, you know, and I have my pilot's license. Plus I thought being a pilot was a very lateral transfer as far as culture goes. I thought like it was big boy rules, know, grow your hair out and blouse your boots type of thing. Put your hands in your pockets. it was not like that, which is part of why all this happened was because my expectations were here and aviation was not meeting that at all. So once I got there, I was like, what did I do type of thing? You know? but those were the biggest reasons. another, another factor is When I was in group, I did a six month deployment to the Philippines. So OEFP and, um, my son was born like three weeks prior, right before I left. So I, you know, I was gone for six months. My wife was active duty. She was a signal officer. and she was just, dude, she was roughing it, man, newborn baby on an Island with nobody to help, you know, and she's just like, this sucks. Like I kind of need you here, you know? So I was like, all right, like let's. let's see what else I can do in the military. know, that's still like gratifying and still gives me purpose. And, you know, it's still something to be proud of. So with that, you moved to where were you stationed with the 160th? That's right. OK. can't go straight to the _ 160th. So you have to do regular army time and get flight hours first before you can try out for the _ 160th. So, um, so I ended up going to Fort Rucker for flight school and then graduated honor grad top of my class. So I got to pick and I got to go to Savannah, Georgia. Yeah. And I was, that's another point, man. I was like, and this is not me bragging. Okay. This is, I guess it's a humble brag, but I got distinguished honor grad in my class, like despite being self-deletion for like a year of flight school, That's, that's the power of like these, can mask it. Yeah. You can be, dude, you can be, you can be an absolute stud on the outside and still be sucking on the inside, you know? And it's probably happening to thousands of people today, unfortunately, but that's the reality yeah. So went to Savannah, did a year in the regular army. deployed to Afghanistan with them, which was very fortunate because I got a lot of flight hours in that short period of time. And it allowed me to go assess for the _ 160th right after that. to your station at Fort Stewart then. Yeah. Hunter Army airfield. with Ranger Battalion. Yep. okay. So you're, cause that's where I was. I was at Savannah, but I was there 2002 to 2005. So it was, it was wild. Yeah. Our barracks got tore down. loved Hunter dude and Savannah was, was a phenomenal place to be stationed, especially if you're, you know, rocking Ranger panties when you're Ranger PT and we go out in town and do that. And yeah, the looks are, the looks are amazing. yeah. So, so this, that now that I have learned that that is a point that people need to really take a minute and think about pauses, pauses recording, sit there and think about that. How many people do you think are in your life that are going through these hard times that are smiling on the outside, but meanwhile, on the inside are absolutely miserable. And this is also to us that are veterans, both law enforcement and military to check on, to check on the guys. Not just, hey, you were funny in class, so we need to go check on you. No, I was also funny in class and I haven't dealt with self-deletion ideation and that type of thing, but I definitely could have used, I definitely could have used help. And luckily for me, God made a way because the guy I met in airborne school waiting for a ride to church ends up being the guy that I go through. RIP, RIP Ranger, indoctrination _ program back then. And then we ended up getting stationed together in Savannah. And so we get out of the barracks and we've got our own little, our own little apartment. And so that was my saving grace. That's how I don't know how much worse my beret would be had I gone through that without him. I don't, you know, and again, when you, when I read Bryan Gray's name, I knew that his name, my buddy's name is John Bennett. For you, Bryan Gray is for me probably, I've already compared to Kristoffer, but I only, I had went through _ month with Kristoffer and John I ended up living with and I'm being buddies with for three years. Yeah. Yeah, man, was like it was almost like looking in a mirror, you know, when I think about Bryan, like I see so much of what I went through and who I am in him, you know. So, yeah, that's it's crazy stuff. wife help you? Let's, let's jump back into this spot here. And I know we're, just going to get through the first 10 pages of your book. Your, your wife, man, your wife is, wide eyed What is the conversations that that was helpful or not helpful? Your, your wife isn't expected to be Dr. Phil. Wink, wink. He's not a indoctrination. uh Right. He's, she's not expected to be a professional, but clearly what she did worked clearly because you're here. Clearly she was supportive. you were able to pull through that kind of tell us what those conversations were like. Well, first of all, she was never, she was never degrading, right? She was never like, what, like, you know what I mean? Never, never made me feel like I was a less than, you know, because of it, which is awesome. she didn't know what to do. Obviously she was also struggling, you know, postpartum depression, all of those things still active duty army. Like she's a signal officer dealing with just. whatever. She had a crappy job in the army and she hated it. And so she had her own stuff, you know? And like then to throw this on her, she, like, she was like, I don't know what to do. You know, I'm just freaking lost, just as lost as you are. I thought I was the _ that was, you were going to help. And now like, I feel like I have to help you in some way. So, I mean, the, guess the answer like in the short term is she didn't do much because she didn't know what to do. right? And I wouldn't have known what to do either. she kind of was just like, okay, crap that happened, but we didn't really talk about it after that. We kind of were just like, okay, that happened. And I just pretended like it got better, you know? So we kind of like just, all right, Roger that, you know, you know where my gun is, but I'm not going to ask for it again. And we'll just not talk about it type of thing. but As it progressed further, I started getting a little more and more honest with her and kind of like almost like dropping bread nuggets or whatever bread crumbs for her. You know, like we'd go to, this is a weird example, but we would go to church and this is when I would get overwhelming sense of dread and these dizzy spells. So I don't know if there's spiritual warfare component, whatever, but I was under attack and at church was the worst for some reason. It was just consistently the worst. And, um, there were like, told her, was like, man, I'm getting, I'm really dizzy right now. You know, or like, I just need to like walk out or something. And she, she was kind of picking up on it. And she is actually the _ that made me go talk to somebody after I got knee surgery. Like she was like, enough, dude, like this has been 5 years of this, like, go, go talk to somebody. I'm not telling you to tell them, you know, everything. And she didn't even know everything to be fair, but she was just like, at least tell them you're having these dizzy spells and try to get it figured out. So she was really, I would just, I will just say like she was really encouraging and She never belittled me. now we did have very serious marital struggles during that time. Like we did. I was a Dick. I was not present. I was. I mean, I was just so ingrained with surviving, you know, and being great at work that home was just zombie mode. Like with the kids, with my wife, like, leave me alone. I just want to sit on the couch, watch TV, drink half a bottle of bourbon and go to bed and then go to work, perform, come home, do the same thing. Like that was honestly, that was my life for years. And it's kind of crappy to admit because I never really thought about it that way, you know. when I was in it, I thought it was just, this is what soft dudes do. Like, you know what I mean? Like me and my, me and my buddies would just, that was just kind of normal, you know? So I didn't think it was that out of the ordinary, but then looking back, I'm like, da*n dude, like I can't even remember a lot of those times, you know? Like I can't even remember what kind of person I was, you know, at home. I can remember how good I was at work and how well I did at work, but I, it was not intentional at home. So. That's the real crux of it. to her credit, man, she's, she's stuck by my side and she never, I, I did start like that. All of this was me. Okay. Everything that we went through, like, yes, she had, she had her own like depression and mental health struggles as well. But the, the household that I created and the household environment that I created was because of me, but. I was not thinking that way. And I was becoming resentful to her because of that, because of my own problems. I ha I was looking elsewhere for blame, right? It's like, well, she's complaining about everything all the time. You know, that's probably why this is happening. Right. So I was projecting everything that I was feeling onto somebody else because it felt good, you know, and it felt justified and it kept me on my high horse. kept me up here, know, and kept me keep going. So this is all in retrospect, right? It's really hard to realize that in the moment, but man, that's, and that's why this is so ironic, but I'm so grateful for all that because now I know, you know, now I have awareness that it's easy, really fricking easy to fall into that trap. Really easy. And you have to be intentional. that was a really long rant, but The synopsis of it is like, it's a team effort, you know? Like you have to have each other's backs and you can't become each other's enemies. That is the number _ thing, man. Divorce was a swear word in our house. Always has been, always will be. When we would hang out with friends and I would hear them joke about divorce and stuff, I cringe. I don't know why, I get an internal visceral reaction to it. And in our house, that word is not allowed. I don't even care if what we're talking about, like we don't mention it and it worked, you know, I mean, call it a God thing, call it whatever you want to, but it worked man. And we're still here and now like we're closer than ever and we're thriving after 13 years. Like it's, it's a blessing. So when the book into that, when did you feel like you were completely out of it? When did you feel like you were in the clear and you were no longer going to be dealing with this? That is a phenomenal question because I don't know if you ever are. I don't know if you ever are. Well, we'll see. um I'm working on it still. The difference now though is if I have an intrusive thought, which still happens, be really clear about that. It's still a part of my journey. I did get on the medication that made a huge difference. That's what gave me clarity, if you will, gave me space to kind of realize what was happening and helped me climb out of that pit. So the medication was the first step to healing. And There's a lot of, a lot of stigmas around that too. I even felt guilty for being on meds because you know, everything I'd read about just how bad SSRIs are and stuff. So I felt guilty about that, but it worked for a little bit. And then I paired that with the therapy and just building the tools. I'm building, really building more awareness and building more acceptance into, this is my reality. This happened to me. I'm going to stop trying to run from it and just kind of now work in it and fix it. And then. So I was on meds from 2022 probably to last year and I tapered off last summer and now I'm just, I'm good. You know, I'm content. I'm happy where I'm at. And when those thoughts come, they don't take a hold of me, man. It's, I've built the tools now that now that I know like when they happen, it's okay. Like that's there. I still feel it, you know, it still doesn't feel good, but I'm not going to like give it the attention that I used to, But the big I'm doing, I'm going to do psychedelics soon and I'm hoping. Yep. And I'm hoping that's the the last wall I need to break down, you know, because I've I've climbed hundreds of stairs, you know, and I'm way, way removed from where I was. You know what I mean? Like I was living in fear. every single day and shame and guilt and all that. And now I am absolutely not like I'm thriving now and I'm blessed. but yeah, still a couple walls to break down that I that I need to punch through. The next time we, the next podcast we do, you're to have to tell me what your experience was like. Because I, yeah, I've heard of course Rogan and you know, even Shawn Ryan, like they've all done it. They're all talking about it. And that has taken away some of that stigma, but it's still there because it's, still drugs, right? And I've never done drugs, so I can't do that because it's drugs. So, um, Well, you know, what's ironic about that is the, mean, I don't want to go down this road too long, but, um, the spiritual, this, the spiritual aspect to it, you know, like, so I'll talk about it for a second. Um, with like faith. Okay. And I've heard, this is actually ironic timing. Because Andy Stump just did a podcast with, um, Chad, right? think his name is another seal and And he asked him about like, why don't you believe, why don't you believe in God? You know what I mean? Or why don't, why are you not a Christian basically? And Andy's answer was great, man. It was just, he's just like, I don't know, you know, like I'm not, I'm not against it. I just haven't had the experience that made me like, this is it. And this is what I need to believe, you know? And he's like, I could have all the historical evidence, right? I could have all the factual evidence, but that's not what faith is supposed to be. know, faith is not supposed to be based on evidence at all. So how can I be a Christian if I don't have that faith and I don't have that feeling and that emotional feeling, right? And I, I resonated with that a lot because I was born and raised a Christian. I drifted from it a lot in my military career, you know, and was not, I still kind of knew right and wrong, obviously, but I wasn't I was not a Christian. I'll admit that. But even now, even since then, now that I've cleaned up my life, if you will, I still struggle with faith. do. Like I hate admitting it, but I can go to the, I go to, we go to like church community group, right? And I just sit there, man, and these men have so much faith. And I'm just like, I'm just trying to poke holes in everything, even though I don't know why, man, it's just cynical. So I am hoping that that's another outcome of this journey too, is just that I can reconnect with my faith and have that. So I do think there's spiritual benefits to it as well. Resentment toward God is something that I've never heard a sermon on, but now I think I want to write. I know I think I want to give _. I want to, I want to study it. No. So chapter 5 is as far as I get. know that you mentioned, you mentioned the word resentment _ time in there that I'd already highlighted, but, you're what you just said is, very powerful because so few people actually understand that their anger toward God. is it's really a coping mechanism because again, he can't, he can, he chooses not to fight back. So you can belittle him, you can make fun of him, you can make fun of Christians for believing this and all those things. And that's what I got while being a Christian in the Ranger Regiment, which is absolutely not, I mean, yeah, it's all but impossible. And that's _ of my messages is it is absolutely possible. But you should expect for the oil to be drained out of your car. You should expect for people to want to absolutely destroy you and haze you specifically asking you religious questions about the Bible and then hazing you more for not giving them the answer they wanted. Like that's part of it. But again, I kind of expected that a little bit. And so it wasn't as big a blow to me, I think, it was to others that had to endure that. Not that there's many of us, but. props to you for holding onto that though, you know, and not conforming to the culture. Because that's what I did. You know, like I was like, I know what's right, but this is what the guys are doing. I'm going to go, I'm going to go be _ of the guys, you know, which, I mean, I think there's just a very fine balance to that, you know, like there's a way to do both. some people throw that needle very, very well. I did not, you know, I was just like, I'll go to church on Sunday and that's it, you know, and. put on a good face and smile and then the rest of week be a heathen. You know what mean? I think this is the _ of those moments where the, could right now smile and I could go, Because I was just such a good person for being a Christian while I was on the Rangers. That's not the case. Like too, like on the inside, I know that I went, I absolutely resented myself for choosing to not become _ of those guys. Like I, I, I had, built up so much self hatred and this is something I'm still trying to process through right now. I, I could not take a drink of alcohol or do drugs because that was my identity. And I know that a lot of motivational speakers talk about this, right? I, I'm fit. That's just my lifestyle. I'm fit. go, I don't need to think about going to the gym. go to the gym. He talks about that and it hit me. was like, yeah, like that's, that's what alcohol has always been for me because my grandfather was an alcoholic. My dad had trouble with alcohol. I knew that if I took a drink of alcohol, that that would open a door for me that if I stepped through it, it would take me the rest of my life to try to crawl back out of. the same thing with drugs, because I saw my, my aunts and uncles, and I saw relatives that were just. zonked out on pills, laying there sleeping for two days straight because they had been up for a week straight without sleep. And that's what, that's what, you know, I had been exposed to, but my parents were good. You know, my parents were really good to me and they didn't drink and they didn't do drugs. So I had that base. But on the inside, I think there's part of me that, I wanted to belong. And I'm that again, a class clown. I want to belong. I want to be _ of the guys. But I really, I'm really having to try to process through the resentment that I've built up for myself all those years for not getting to experience the fun of being _ of the guys. And, and, and that's something that I imposed on myself, which is another layer to it. Like, but why did I, why did I do that? And now is that questioning my faith? Anyways, that's stuff for me to worry about. good stuff, man. Let me ask you this, because I always wondered this from someone like your perspective, who did separate themselves from the debauchery. Were you judgmental, whether unintentionally or intentionally? And you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but I felt like that's why it was so hard to claim Put your stake in the ground and say, I'm a Christian, you know, and I'm going to follow his path because everybody else was like, we can't be around that dude. Because he's going to judge us. You know, I'm just curious and you don't, you can navigate this however you want. Yeah. Okay. Because I want to know, I really want to know. I'm an open book. So I was raised in a place where everybody was super judgmental. And I'll give you an example of Christmas _ year. I have got two cousins and they're both identical twins and they're, think four years old, four or 5 years old at the time, just remembering what they look like, how tall they were at that time. And my grandmother, and we're all there for Christmas, and this was like Christmas Eve, and my grandmother, cartoons on, we're all watching it, she looks over at the boys and she goes, hey, uh and says their names. like, now you guys know that you need to start reading the Bible and following it, right? Because right now you're gonna go to hell if you die. It's like your daddy, he's going to hell if he dies, and you're gonna go to hell. You don't wanna go with your daddy to hell, do you? BLEH kids have no idea what she's saying. They're just like, no. And they don't know what for them. They were thinking maybe what she's talking about is not getting a treat or getting something sugary that we had made for Christmas dinner. That was what I was raised around and the type of people that I was around. I had such a, a visceral feeling when people were judging other people that I was always bringing people together. So to answer your question, no. However, when _ of the guys at my Ranger, at my unit was _ of my buddies that was across the hallway from me in the barracks, starts hooking up with a a married woman from my church that I knew really well while her husband was deployed Yeah, that's, mean, that's, there's a line you gotta, yeah. Yeah. where I like, right, but again, like she's the _ doing that with him. He's just at the club and some chick wants to hook up. When we find out she's married and then I find out who she is. And, and that became this, I would say that's the only moment where I was just like. Yeah, what do I do? Yeah. man, I really want, I don't want to do anything to this guy. I'm not hateful toward him. don't, I don't want to be resentful to him. was at her. It's at this lady. And so that was the moment where I can go. I want to go over there. I want to tell her that I know. And I, and I wrestled and I lost a lot of sleep with that whole situation. And that was the only time with all the other guys. It's easy because again, It's the culture, man. Like everybody here is doing it. And so for me, I was a corporal, which is unheard of in the range Regiment. Nobody gets a corporal. They held by Sergeant was like, if you reenlist, I'll pin this immediately. And then you'll be, you'll be, you know, your points are already there. You'll be up for E six, you know, in a time and grade type of deal. Mm-hmm. And I thought to myself, if I do that, if I take the easy way out, right? Most people think that's the, that's the hard way you're to go keep being a Ranger or you're going to go, right. if I would have done that, I could have reenlisted. And then I would have went to tryouts with Delta with the cool kids that are above them. And all of that was on the table for me. Triple canopy had just opened blackwater. All my buddies that are going that route. And I'm just like, I could do all these things, but I knew I could not be a father. And I would not be married to a woman that loved God more than me if I did that. and I got out of the military and I got out of that situation. I had to get away from that. But I found it very easy to even be driving, going and picking up my drunk PFCs and privates with their dates for Ranger ball, because I had already told everybody. Obviously, you know, I'm going to be the _ sober. I'm going to be the _ ready. But I told him, I was like, you, I will punch you in the face when I see you, if you get a DUI and you end up getting kicked out of the Regiment, it's not going to be easy on you because I am literally sitting here with a cell phone, even though was a big hard _ with an antenna you pulled out. It was _ of those big ones. I was like, you better call me and I will come get you. And I went and picked them up and I'm driving them and they're drunk dates. And these kids are. We're going to say they're of age. They're 21 or not. They're all, they're all 19 year old kids are all drunk with their drunk, you know, girls and I'm driving them back to the barracks so they can go have fun. And everybody at the barracks is running through the hallways and party in and exchanging drinks and doing shots. And I am like, somebody's gotta be responsible. I guess that's me. So I ended up getting, I was always, that's it. I was always the guy. Every time there's a urine test, was me. 100 % of the time I am on the roster to, so I already knew I've got to have water with me. I've got to be drinking dude. So I made it through, but I, I would say that I survived, but I have built up so much self hatred and resentment toward myself because of what I felt, felt like not just that I missed out on not the, not the debauchery, the, the bonding with those guys though. Those dudes did and didn't bond with me because I didn't drink with them. And a lot of guys hated my guts for that and would never even speak to me. And, you know, at this age, I look back and go, and that's okay. Like, and if you want to talk to me now, let's talk. Like I, I don't hold that against you at all. were the crazy time. Anyways, I want to get back to you. Here's _. Here's a quote that I want to get to, which the kind of goes. goes well with what we're talking about. You say at the end of page 9, we're only page 9, I was a good man in a storm until the storm came for me. That is another time you have to set the book down and you have to think about what you just said and you need to reread that a few times. Tell me what you're thinking of when you write those words down. What imagery does that pull to you when you write that down? So it's almost like metaphoric in the way that I described like how I was going through life, you know, like how I was dealing with my family and how I was just putting myself on a pedestal, you know, it's not that I was like doing anything to harm people, you know, or doing anything like that seemed insanely out of line. It's just that When I was in the storm, there was no clarity. There was no intentionality behind who I was and what I was doing. So it just felt like such a confusing place to be, I guess. No hope for the future. Dude, wouldn't even get excited for anything. If we had a vacation planned or something, I would still do this, that stuff, you know, just cause I feel felt like the right thing to do, but I could not get excited for anything. Like it was the weirdest feeling. So that's just like _ example of just, it's just how I felt. I just felt like I knew I was a good person. I know I am a good person, you know, like I know my core values were always there and I'm actually really grateful for them because they did keep me grounded. Right. They did prevent me from like being the guy that ends up getting violent or, know, something like that, which happens a lot, unfortunately. I knew I was a good person, but I didn't feel like I could act that out. If that makes sense at all. Yeah. It's, it's, was a, that's why like even that sentence right there was like, when I wrote that, that was like, I even had to sit with it and be like, are people going to understand this? Because it's, there's so much just in that _ sentence that it's even hard for me to vocalize, I guess, you know, in a clear way, cause there's so much to it. But that was the intent. And for the people that have been through it though, they don't need you to, right? They don't need you to describe it. Now, and this is something you're going to hear from me probably on every podcast, One of the most powerful things that I will always go back to when it comes to the storm and that analogy is... Right? Every person on earth right now, it doesn't matter your age. doesn't matter where you live. doesn't matter what your background is, how much money you make. Nothing matters. Everyone's going through the same thing. Either you're in a storm, you're headed toward a storm. You're coming out of a storm. That's it. You're, running from it, but guess what? You're running from it and heading toward another storm. Like there was a constant stream of storms that Populate the earth every year and you never know when it's gonna be a tornado or a hurricane You don't know what it looks like but that's where right the the analogy fits perfectly with your foundation being on God and being grounded in something that is higher than you that is more powerful than you that you can cling to because You know that in reality. We are only so strong and you talk about the crippling shame squeezing you like a vice immediately. That's what I think of. think of like, man, how much hatred and anger and all these things that I've ever had that I've ever dealt with. And then if I if I hadn't had God, I have no idea how much alcohol I would be trying to consume. Henry Pills, I'd be trying to to keep my mind off of all of that pain. and misery and shame. and I have, people that I know that have done their entire adult life. And I'm, they started as a teenager and to this moment right now, they're high, they are drunk, both they're on pills and they, no matter what you say to them, no matter how much you love them, they cannot forgive themselves and they cannot get away from that shame. And that's what your book is about. And that's the reason why I think Everybody needs to read this, and I think people need to read this before they go into the military when they are young, so they can see what's going to happen to them eventually, especially if you're going into _ of the special operations branches. And, for those, for those kids that do, right. Because you're not, like you said earlier, you're not going to understand it. Just the hardest thing in the world is to not experience something and read, read about it and be like, that's bull crap. That's not going to happen to me. Right. And not relate to it. And that's okay. That's totally okay. My hope though. is that if somebody is younger and going into the military and reads this book that they now have at least the awareness of that this can happen to them, at least that awareness, right? Because I did not, man. I thought I was bulletproof to it. I thought this only happened to very, very weak individuals and people that are victims and that let it happen to them. Frankly, right? I thought. There was no way in hell this would ever happen to me. So that's what I want the younger generation to get out of it is the awareness of what can happen if you don't take care of yourself. And if you just keep pushing to the limit forever, like pushing yourself is amazing. You know, there's so much value in it so much, and you will learn so much about yourself if you push yourself. But there is a limit. Every single human being has a limit and it's okay to those limits, you know, and reach them and realize what they are. But redlining at that limit for years on end does not end well. It just doesn't. And that's the reality of special operations a lot of times is we are built to redline for a long period of time. And if we don't aren't aware of that, it's mitigatable. It is like there's plenty of tools out there and plenty of things that people can do to actually take care of their mental health and actually like realize that it's important, but people don't until it's too late. people don't think about mental health until it's an issue. They don't think about like preventative stuff like cold plunging, you know, which is actually turning into something that's like bad a$$ now, you know, and like, cool. but the mental health benefits are insane. They're awesome. So like even just instilling something like that. in your workout routine or your recovery routine, it's going to go a long freaking way to your longevity, to your happiness, to your ability to handle stress, you know? So that's what I want younger people to get out of it. I really want them to be able to look at it without judgment, without being like, you know, this guy's weak, this guy's, you know what I mean? Without giving into the stigmas and actually look at it with an open mind and an open heart. It's not easy to do. It takes maturity to do that, but if they do, there'll be so much better off for it. I'll get off my soap box now, but yeah. Let's stay there for a minute because _ of the things that your book that I'm taking away from it, again, the first few chapters, you're talking about, right, tip of the spear that you're in the night stalkers, right? Chapter two, the night doesn't care if you're good at your job, right? Black on black, no moon, no stars, no horizon, just nothing. Felt like you're flying in a void. When I was a kid, the only thing I knew about Navy SEALs especially back in the eighties, everything was based on John Rambo. Every green beret was John Rambo. And then the movie, right. Charlie Sheen, Navy Seals, and then all the stories that you hear of Navy Seals. Nobody had stories of Rangers back then. Nobody had stories of PJs. Nobody had stories of night stalkers. Nobody knew any of those things existed. Certainly not out in the middle of the country where I was at in Oklahoma. But you're there, you're at this place that everyone, even in the special operations community looks around and goes, that dude is hardcore. Like you want to get respect, night stalker, walk past any group of special operations. Because there is absolutely nobody with a brain that would attempt to throw any type of shade toward a night stalker, pun intended. And just being around those guys though, it was strange because when we were on the compound with them and going through, they were on the task force, right? 141 call of duty. I was on that task force and I'm seeing these guys and I'm going past their tent. They just didn't talk. Like it was weird that everybody else would talk amongst themselves and they would be, joking and having fun and going out and throwing the football. They just kind of hung out to themselves. were, they were typically older. That was a big _ thing that we noticed much more sure. And every, but every time that we interacted and I was a Forward Observer before the Iraq invasion, we got to go over to the little bird pilots and they actually showed us the little bird pulled the rotors down, pinned them all back and hand wheeled it. into the, to the hanger. Yeah. Picked it up and wield it out. like, yeah, dudes are walking out your helicopter. Yeah. And it's got, you know, 50 Cal on _ side. It's got these rocket launchers on the other. And they're like, Hey, so when you're calling for fire, this is what the rocket looks like you're calling for. This is the right. Because we also have to memorize all the different uh types of weapon systems that the little birds could have and know all that stuff inside and out. You guys are held up to an even higher standard and SF is obviously well respected across all branches of the military. But man, _ 160th is literally the tip of the spear. And when you say at the end of page 9 if I screw this up, I'll never hear the end of it. That is the fear that is the dread. You don't want to be the guy standing over there that everybody else is mocking, throwing fruit at. Right. In, all the old cartoons, your own rotten tomatoes at these people, you never want to be that guy. And we're going to fast forward with that statement to, the guys that were in army basic training with you who had their shoelaces taken away. Because that's where I want to get, I want to, I want to make sure and mention this. This is such a powerful thing that I had not even thought of until you brought it up. That is stories that I completely locked away in my beret. I check in and there's a infantry guy and infantry. think he was an East six staff sergeant. He was, and he was reclassing to be a forward observer, but we're in the receiving barracks. So we're all prior service. So they put us in a different area, but we're still around those kids. still go to the formation with them and all that. And there was a young guy and he was from, I believe, Puerto Rico. And he had joined the military so he could become a U S citizen and he could serve and he could eventually get his family to come over and those things. So there's a lot of incentive there. He is now, crying and will not stop saying that he wants out. He wants to leave and all those things. And then he was just always whiny and pouting over there kind of in the corner and nobody. They weren't mocking him, they just weren't, they were ignoring him. We were just ostracizing like, okay, don't know why this guy's sitting around crying. Yeah, because you can't relate to them, you know, you're like, yeah. Yeah, that too. Yeah. So I literally can't talk to this guy. Staff Sergeant, of course, combat veteran. And, yeah, he actually could speak Spanish to this, to this guy. so the drill sergeants come up to us and they're just like, Hey, here's the deal. You know, this kid is now threatening Self-Deletion. You know, you guys are the prior service. You're here. I could expect out of you guys a little bit more. professionalism. so of course I'm kind of coming to you, help me if you would with this kid and kind of watch him and da da da. And I don't want to say his name, but that the staff sergeants is like, yeah, no problem. We'll take care of it. You know, I'm just, again, I'm the Marine now trying to get into the army. I don't know what this is all about. This is nothing like Marine Corps boot camp. And, and this kid's crying like, bro, what I came from to this. Are you joking me? Right. Right. So I, I have that attitude a hundred percent. And I'm going to go to the Ranger. So it's going to be even harder than what I did. When I tell you that staff sergeant is yelling in this kid's face, in this kid's face, once they've taken a shoe laces, he's wearing a road guard vest and PT belt or two. And he's now on Self-Deletion watch. The staff sergeant screaming in his face, you're a coward. You won't kill yourself. And he pulls out his own shoelaces and gives it to the kid. He's like, you won't do it. Here's the shoelaces. We're going to go outside when you're done hanging yourself. We'll come back in either way. We're going to come check on you in about 30 minutes. That should give you enough time to figure out to tie the knot. Right. here's the flip side of this coin. Automatically everybody immediately your gut reaction is what a terrible human being that's horrible. This guy's suffering and that's a fact, but here's the other part. If that guy makes it through, if they push him through anyways, and he gets assigned to my unit, right? Because this guy was just regular army. He's going to go out and maybe get stationed with this guy. Well, do you want that guy? You're going to go to combat. is 2002, September 11th just happened. Nobody's deployed to Afghanistan except for special forces. And we don't even know that yet. We're just assuming right at that point, you're in the army, just assuming SF's out there, Delta's out there, the SEALs are out there. All these guys are doing cool stuff. Eventually we're going to get to go to war here and you want that guy to be in the foxhole with you. Right. And you don't, the reality is you don't. Right. that's the like dichotomy there is that, somebody who can't make it to basic training, probably shouldn't, you should probably just cut them loose right there. You know what I mean? But encouraging like Self-Deletion. You know, and encouraging a dude to take his life and mocking somebody and belittling him publicly in front of everybody. The point of bringing that story in, I was the young dumb, you know, I was 21. So I was, you know, but all of us dumb recruits are laughing at them. Like they can't hang. They, they have no business being here. Like. You know what mean? We, totally dove into that culture and believed it, but what that did and unintentionally, obviously, but what that does is that creates the cultural stigma from day _ in the military, right? Is if you're suffering, if you're dealing with something, just shut up. Don't tell anybody about it because you don't want to deal with the whatever the public shame, the belittling, whatever comes out of it, whatever consequence you convince yourself or tell yourself is going to come out of it. And to be fair, that that still happens in the, you know, especially in the infantry, especially in 11 Bravo land. Like that's still a major problem in the culture. And there's a story in my book about it. and you'll get to it, but it's not my story. It's, it's a snother soldier story and you'll get you'll probably get physically like frustrated reading it because you'll be like, yeah, that's exactly how it is. And that's the problem is that when somebody, when a good person, who is actually like competent and an asset goes through something like that, they don't feel like they have the ability to get help, but yes, I, I agree that like there is a level of like, tolerance for it, you know, like you can't just like, or else people are going to be crying wolf. You know how the military is. Unfortunately, there's going to be people that are like, I need to go to behavioral health when they really don't, you know, and that ruins it for everybody that actually needs it. So I don't know, maybe it's just a special operations unique thing to start. And we start some trial programs or trial, you know, systems and see if that starts reducing. the Self-Deletion numbers because the Self-Deletion numbers are still really scary and really bad. So yeah, man, I don't know the way forward, but I am more than willing to offer solutions and try to figure it out. Yeah. And I think that's what all of us that don't have some magical answer, that's all we can do, right? Is we can just open up our ruck and say, hey, man, I don't know who needs it, but if you need to offload some stuff, let's do that now. Right? And the analogy, _ that I do use regularly is, and it may be a better _ than I did before with the wood and the fire, which is, you know, we all know if you were infantry or if you've had to do the field, exercises that if somebody goes down in training, okay, this part, they'll walk up and be like, okay, this guy just went down. He's dead. This guy went down. He's injured. He's injured. Now everybody has to do what the first thing is you got it yet. You all got to come up and get them on the gurney, right? You got to make sure they're good. And then what happens? All the ruck is still there. You don't just leave their ruck. So all of their equipment, their weapon, all the ammo, if they're the extra ammo carrier, if they're the guy carrying the extra barrels for the 240, that gets passed around to everybody else. And that I think is a really good analogy for the veterans, which is that's literally what you're doing. Not only do they have to carry your ruck, your extra weight of all of your equipment that you were carrying, They also are individually going to be carrying your body as well. That's the amount of weight that it's going to feel like on that person's soul for the rest of their life. And obviously it's not as bad when you're 95 as it is when it happens in that moment initially, but it feels like a thousand pounds initially. And even though it might lessen with time that that will never go away. They're still carrying. miles. Yeah, you're still putting miles on it. know? Yeah, for sure, man. Yeah, I just, there's like, there is another way You know, there is a better path for sure. Even when hope is dim, there's, there's still there. It's still there. I'd like to read just because this this part is gold. This is this is something that I'm probably going to have like it made into a poster page 29, you were just talking about you guys making lifelong friends, these guys being the pinatas and everybody, you know. kind of destroying them. The next paragraph down, I'll just quote it from you. Years later, I was dealing with depression, insomnia, and self-deletion thoughts. I'd think back to this time, to those recruits. I didn't know their names, but I remembered the looks on their faces, like something inside them had folded. And then I realized, and this is in bold, that's where it starts. Not with trauma, not with war, not even with high stakes missions. It starts with the little things that we teach you to feel ashamed of being human, feeling of not measuring up. It starts with the shoelaces being taken away and The laughter of so-called stronger men ringing in my ears, fear, belittling and mockery. Bro, that's, that's another thousand pounds right there that it'll take you. It'll take you your entire life to unpack it. And, and you'll still be watching it. You'll still be watching other people doing the exact same thing. You'll be standing there screaming horse. That's a snake hole. And they're going to walk right up and put their foot right in it while they're staring at you and grinning. And you're going to go, why, why is it so hard to not get sucked into this stupid little hole, but it's not a little hole that the problem is this is a, this is a mile wide ditch and, it's everywhere. And this is the thing I want to, for everybody who's not a veteran, still watching this podcast and listening to this wisdom. This is going to happen in any office job that you're going to. This is going to happen anywhere that there are other people. If you get hired to go out by yourself and live on the side of a mountain and count geese, cool. This doesn't apply to you, to everybody else. And even then it still does because somebody's making fun of you back at the office you don't know about. Maybe you'll find out later. That's where it starts is with that mockery. And I think in public schools is the first taste of it for most Americans. That's what I was going to say, man. It stems, it stems even beyond that, you know, cause I, I wrote that as like the symbolic piece of that's where it starts in the military and the military culture. But you're right. It starts, it starts from when you're three years old, you know, it does for, for almost everybody. It's ego, man. It's ego and it's your perception of the world and you trying to find your place in the world. And you know, either being told you're not good enough or being told you're too good. And either way, you know, there's going to be consequences of how you were raised, even if your parents did the best job, you know, and you just got to learn about that, learn how to live with it. Yeah. Sorry to derail that, but yeah, it's... brother. That's the point, you're the _ that wrote this and, and people that are going to finish reading this book. And especially after I get to, to get through all of it and run out of highlight markers and go buy new ones. The, the wisdom that you're sharing here is not the easy stuff. It's not, if you read this, if you read these first 29 pages, you can go. I don't know. I'm not really getting it. Cool, bro. Put that down. Listen, listen, give, give that to somebody who's older than you, maybe 10, 15 years older than you. Give this to, give this to somebody that you know, that's a veteran law enforcement, first responder, let them read it. See if you could have a conversation with them about those first 29 pages and see if what they tell you about their experience is a little different from what the words meant to you because you've read them and you don't understand, or you just haven't experienced them. You're living life at the highest. And from Green Beret to Night Stalker, man, like that is right. We're all trying to pretend like there's this hierarchy and it depends on what your tier level is. Cool. Cool, man. Here's the deal. I've been to the point where I volunteered to go on Self-Deletion missions. That says a whole lot about me that I, that it's going to take me many years to unpack because guess what? That's not called self-deletion ideation That's called bravery. That's what you get medals for. That's valor, man. Listen, I was so valorous, I could not wait to not come back. Wait a minute. When I phrase it that way, it just doesn't have the same hero vibe. I don't know why. But that's the reality. There's a lot of us that we're suffering so much that we really wanted to die in combat. And when we came back, it's the easy way out. as that sounds. It's true. Because even throughout that time, man, I was just hoping something would happen to me. I was just like, I, if I got shot down, it'd be okay. Like it would suck. Because I have a crew here and I don't want them to die, you know, but like if it hit me, that'd be all right. You know, it's crazy. It's crazy that your mind would ever think that. Like, but yeah, it's wild. I back, didn't even make my point when I told you back in the old days, John Rambo, Navy SEALs, right? That's, that's what we were introduced to. The _ thing that I always remembered that the adults would say, cause I was a kid when all that came out was yeah, green berets and Navy SEALs do things physically that doctors say are absolutely impossible to do. They can run farther. can withstand cold. can do things, climb faster, harder, do things that your body, your lung, your heart's literally not even built to do, but they do it anyways. And you're like, so wait, they're actual superhero. Like they are the Punisher, right? And then later on, I couldn't find that out. That's the tattoo I have, Because we all want to believe that that's what we are. We all want to believe that we are this superhuman and that all these burdens that we've been loading in our ruck aren't gonna weigh us down. And your book is sitting down with that ruck that's full of how many ever years you are old and how many ever miles that you've put, whether you've been in law enforcement, military, or just working in office jobs where you've been dealing with horrible. bosses and co-workers and this shame and ridicule and belittling in this cycle of of people just treating each other like crap so they can get a bigger paycheck that is the ruck that and you just got to sit down and go through it and you need to start processing through and understanding that you weren't weak for not participating with that or you or not to be too harsh on yourself if you participate in it because I didn't yeah I smiled and laughed with them when they were making fun of this kid I wasn't I wasn't standing there when when he's yelling this in this kid's face I actually I think I had gone to chow or something we're taking turns right because somebody had to be watching at all times but the other guys that were standing there right with him and they all told me firsthand exactly. And he's telling me with a big smile on his face exactly what he said to this kid. Yeah. Man, you can be just lost in regret, right? Because that's the other part is if you start feeling so bad for all the things you could have done, you can't get lost in that either because that is a sinkhole that nobody will ever make it out of. If you start spending all of your time regretting all these things, all you can do is learn from it, write a book about it, start a podcast about it, get to know somebody. even better, get to know somebody who is dealing with that and take time to connect with them and just share that experience with them. You're not unloading your burdens on them. When you're sharing this with me in a book, I don't feel like I have to carry any weight from learning your story. It's the opposite. It's I've learned how you've taken stuff out of your ruck and that it's okay to take stuff out of my ruck. sure. For sure, man. like, yeah, because the victim mentality is so unhealthy. You know, there's like just to piggyback on that good military word there. Did you every single person out there should be striving to be a better version of themselves, right? And a lot of times, the reason we're not is because our pride and ego get in the way. I would argue the majority of the time when we screw up or when we're not happy with how we did something, right? It's always our pride and ego that keeps us from either addressing it or doing the right thing or learning from it even, just being stubborn and stuck in our ways. just have a open mind, have a soft, soften your heart, you know, like that was _ of the biggest things that I had to do was like, just learn to have grace for myself, you know, and be like, It's okay, Like it's okay. You know, just the world puts all these expectations on everybody and It's cool to meet him. It feels good. Right. But like, if you're not happy, what's the point? You know, what's the point of striving and pushing? So yeah, I really, yeah, man, I appreciate you just digging into all this. the book is for anybody. Right. But like we said, the younger generation, it's more for awareness. mean, hopefully, hopefully they're not struggling with that yet, but it's more for awareness of what can happen, you know, and what's how to be prepared for it. For the older generation, man, like I feel like they're the ones that need it the most. Right. And I know I don't want to be like the generational, you know, labeling people, but the boomers need it the most, man. Like my dad's generation, they They're the ones that pass it on to us. And they're the ones that really like solidified the, the manly man in air quotes, you know, or what it looks like to be a manly man, so if they read it, and that's why I try to make the cover look as bad-a$ as possible, you know, because I was like, if you hand this to a man, like he's not going to look at this as a mental health book right away. You know, he's going to see a warrior on the front. So that's what I tried to do with that cover was be like, this is a man's fricking book and it's okay to read. There's some heavy stuff in there, but it's okay to read and it's going to make you a better person. At least that's the intent behind it. you read, if you read this book and it doesn't make you want to be a better person, you need help. need to seek professional help because to be honest, like if you can hear, if you can read through somebody else being honest, raw, authentic, and literally telling you the pitfalls that they fell into and, how painful that was and to not that you don't want to go down that road and you hope that everybody doesn't do that. And then you just dismiss that. Like you were on a path of self-destruction on purpose. And it is to your point, it's ego, it's pride, and it's again, fear of not wanting to be the _, not be the pinata, not be ostracized. And that fear does cripple kids straight out of, know, middle school and high school are coming out shell shocked looking these days. because they've been ridiculed for how many years. And then I can't even get into the kids who are taking g*u*ns to schools and what all of that to try to even unpack. It's not this nice little neat bow that you can tie up and go, it's all drugs, all these kids run drugs, just take the drugs away, everybody's good. No, not. That's not the answer. That's not actually not true at all. Yep. that are being bullied. Nope. Actually a lot of them are the bullies. Oh, well, and everybody keeps trying to come up with an easy answer. There's no easy answer. There's no easy way to the top. You have to take the stairs. It's not ever going to be uh an escalator. There no, no, as I like to tell you, there's no elevator up, bro. It's all of them are broken. They're never going to be fixed. Hop on the stairs with me. Let's go. It's not always going to be fun. It is going to be painful, but at the end, what your life will look like. And I'm not telling everybody that they need to be what I'm doing in life, but at the same time, I look at my life right now and I look back at what I had been through to get to this point. And I know having looked, having read your book, just the first few chapters, pitfalls that I fell into and things that I need to unpack and I need to look back on and really process because we all, no matter where you come from, even if you're not a green beret, even if you're not a Ranger, even if you're not a night stalker, it doesn't matter. You're going to go through things that will absolutely bring you to your knees. You, and you will be at some point sitting there shaking, not knowing what is happening. And hopefully it doesn't happen to you as bad as it does to some who then choose to take themself off this earth. But just know that you, you choosing that path doesn't take your ruck away. doesn't take that weight away. Everyone else is going to have to carry that. That isn't the answer. So join in with people that are trying to do the right thing, share the right messages to keep you out of those. uh snake holes and that's just what I want to leave off with, brother. Yeah. Amen, man. Yeah. If you're, if you're struggling, just don't be ashamed of it. Don't be ashamed of it. And don't be a, don't be a dick to yourself. but it's the only good way to put it, man. This don't be a dick to yourself and yeah, pick up the phone. It will do wonders. Just _ conversation that the weight that you will feel off your shoulders is it's a, it's hard to describe. That's probably the best way to describe it. It's hard to describe. So yeah, I just want to be encouraging, man. I just want to be encouraging for every single person. Like you can reach the pinnacle, you know, fall and then get right back on your horse and reach the pinnacle again and learn a lot from falling the first time, you know? So that's what I'm trying to do now is just, I fell, fell pretty da*n hard, you know? Now I'm just trying to spread the wealth, spread the lessons learned. So thanks for having me. Yeah, we're gonna definitely do this again in a full length capacity at some point. Just gonna have to wait for the stars to align, but brother, I just wanna say to you, brother, this was amazing. I really think that you have a way with words that I'm telling you I've read a lot of veterans books. There are very, very few books that I've read that I have needed to immediately put the book down and just sit and think about the two lines that they just wrote. And your book is absolutely full of them for the first 5 chapters. I know it's going to be the same way through it. So for me, you're an inspiration to keep going at this podcasting and YouTube being and getting better because your message is 100 % going to save somebody's life. 100%. There's zero doubt that this book. going to save some kids life. And I'm talking about a kid in high school and gives them purpose. And that's, that's the thing that I'm trying to spread too is not just tell people, Hey, I've been through this. This was hard. Don't do this. But also if you did it the right way, you could go do these hard things. You can go do that. And if you already know where the snake pits are and you avoid them, I'm telling you your experience. is going to be changed. My life would be nothing like it is today if I wasn't a Marine. My life would be nothing like it is today if I wasn't a Ranger. So true, man.