€150m raised, failed launches, layoffs and Europe's #1 ~ Kilian Kaminski

Hey Crew! Kilian Kaminski was running Amazon's entire refurbished program in Europe. He could see the opportunity. He could see Amazon had no intention of building it. So naturally, he quit and decided to do it himself.

What could go wrong...

refurbed is now the largest refurbished marketplace by markets across Europe. 24 countries. 10 million products sold. Over €150 million raised. 

But getting there involved investors telling him to delete the slide he cared most about, layoffs he describes as the most painful moments of his whole life, a Poland expansion that flopped, and customers calling to report they had accidentally received a new product.

The messy middle is all here.

We get into 👇:
★ Why Amazon built the refurbished program to keep customers in, not to do good
★ Founding refurbed in 2017 and selling the first product six weeks later
★ How Jürgen built alone in five months what agencies quoted at €200K and six people for six months
★ The layoffs that were the most painful moments of his life, not just his business life
★ Why they became profitable last year and what that actually means for their next phase

★ Do you have a random question or need advice? Pop it into the chat or send them to me!! I get to meet and interview some amazing founders and investors globally, so I'll have it included in an upcoming episode :) ★

Follow us on all platforms!

Instagram ~ @fayltales

Tiktok ~ @fayltales 

LinkedIn ~ @fayltales

Transcript

the teaser

SPEAKER_01 0:00

90% of the investors told us, you know, really cool presentation. I really like the founding team. The numbers look really promising. But you know, delete the first slide. It was around 200,000 euros and six developers for six months. And Jürgen built it alone in five months, where I told them about that they have to go, like in only the middle of the talks. They asked me how I feel. I got really fast frustrated when I we didn't realize that Amazon is not really building this program to make refurbishment the new normal or a big and important product category, but they build it because it's a good question.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

So, Killian, let's talk about the collab and not just the peak. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Welcome. Thank you very much for being here.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Thank you. So you were running Amazon's

🌍 running amazon's refurbished program in europe

SPEAKER_00 0:35

entire refurbished program in Europe and you saw the gaps and opportunities more than anyone else. Why did you decide to take the leap and build a startup instead of just staying in corporate where it's comfortable, you've got a good salary? Instead, you chose the hard and ambitious path. Why?

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Yeah, I mean sometimes the easy way is not the best out. But uh but I think like historically, when I was working at Amazon, Amazon is probably not the corporate or the company which is most well known for their positive impact on the environment. Uh, I think it's automatically with a system of e-commerce and what they're doing. Um but on the other hand, I really enjoyed having this my first full-time job as I had amazing people. I could learn a lot uh of the people around me, the managers I had there. Um so when I got this program to launch Amazon renewed the refurbished program of Amazon, I was really excited to finally do something positive while working at this corporate. Uh, but I got really fast frustrated when I didn't realize that Amazon is not really building this program to make refurbishment the new normal or a big and important product category. But they build it because they realized that some customers were proactively searching for refurbishment professors in Amazon. They couldn't find it, and then they went to Google and bought it somewhere outside of Amazon. And this kind of wanted they wanted to change this. So because I mean SJF Bezos always said like they want to be the everything store, buy everything at Amazon. So they launched this program to keep the customers at Amazon, which wants to proactively search in those product categories. But it was not meant in the way that they go to create this program to do something good. Um and this resulted really fast in the outcomes of me trying to grow this program and them, on the other hand, trying to keep it as small as possible so that people who want to buy new, they should still buy new.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

And I think this is something important.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Wow. And so did you then face a lot of um challenges when you were trying to really showcase the importance and I guess the opportunity? And from their perspective, I can see how their other market segments were bigger and they really wanted to push people to buy new because I imagine that the profit margins are greater than the new. I guess internally, how did you find navigating that?

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Yeah, it was really interesting because um they as the German and Europe team, they were really motivated of growing the program because kind of their target of growth. And my my KPIs were also built up on making this program big. But um, the global team, this like Seattle-based team, they always kind of said that they cannot do product capacity or tech product capacity for really building up the program. Which means that uh when I wanted to change something, or for example, said that let's display the refurbished offering next to the new offering so customers can choose and see the benefits of the lower price or the stable impact and the warranty also on the refurbished offering so they can switch. Um they were really vocal of saying, um, yeah, I mean, we do not have capacities for changing some real butches or something which maybe takes one or two days of developing. And they said, like, yeah, it will take half a year or a year of making it happen. And this regularly happened so that I realized, okay, I don't think that they even have the willingness to grow the program. And this was what I meant was really frustrating me and brought me to a level where I said, like, I'm

🍽️ dinner in vienna, company in four weeks

SPEAKER_01 3:48

not sure if I really want to continue this journey here because this is an amazing product category. I personally believe that it has to be part of our future. Um, so I thought if I cannot do it at Amazon, maybe I have to do it elsewhere. And this was then kind of the starting point of uh creating Refurbed.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

And that you did. So then you had dinner with Peter over four weeks and you both decided to, I guess, start working on the company. How do you know Peter? And what was his first reaction when you brought him that idea?

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Yeah, it was quite interesting. Yeah, Peter and I we studied together in Shanghai. Oh wow. And we we both lived in China for a year and studied there our master's degree in international business. Um and Peter is Austrian. Uh, he comes from a little small village, I think only 2,000 uh people living there, uh, on the countryside of Austria. And um, he went then to Tokyo for uh internship at one point and was kind of this local Austrian from the countryside, which now saw the the the big world somewhere. And so he also wanted to, after Tokyo, he wanted to study somewhere in a big city, and so he selected Shanghai. Um, I select Shanghai because I'm from Hamburg in Germany, and you you see all of the big ships coming from China, delivering the goods to Europe, and I was fascinated by the economy power of China, so I wanted to also spend some time of my life living there, um, which was really insightful because I'm next to studying, I also worked in some methodships in China, it was really interesting to see the culture and um also the the the uh the values and how people are literally the working habits, because I think it's totally different than what is existing in Europe. Um, so we both were studying together, and then he went to McKinsey as a consultant. Uh, I went to Amazon as we discussed already. So um we then met for a weekend in Vienna, uh just I think after both of us were working for two and a half years in our companies, um, and had a dinner together, and we talked about what we both are doing and um that we both are not so satisfied with our job. He was at McKinsey was mainly consulting um marketplaces, so he loved the business model of a marketplace. But was also frustrating about that the purpose of a consultancy is not the the the most positive one, I would say. No. Um, and I then shared my experience with Amazon specifically, that uh I had now this refurbished program, which these amazing products, which literally the majority of society doesn't know yet. Um but I was frustrated about the problem that uh currently Amazon's not really focusing on it. And then we both were sitting together over a couple of years and both shared our stories. So we're like, maybe we should just create a marketplace for refurbished for likes that combine kind of our both passions um to one company, which really benefits the consumers as well. And in the end of the day, not only the consumer in society, but also the environment. And this was in the starting point. Um, and I think after the dinner, four weeks later we found the company, and um, six weeks after we found the company, we already um sold our first product. So it was a fast pace of learning and understanding what it's really about and if customers are also interested in what we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Yeah, clearly. What year was this?

SPEAKER_01 6:41

This was uh the dinner was 2016, and then the family the company was beginning of 2017.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Very, very rapid, yeah, which is exciting. So you also had Jurgen as well, and so the three of you really brought very complimentary skill sets. You with the industry insider knowledge, Peter with strategy and finance, and then Jurgen with other technical capabilities, match made in heaven. What was that like at the start? Did it take a while to kind of figure out your vibe and how you'd work together, or did you just seamlessly commence building together?

SPEAKER_01 7:10

I guess like no relationship is really seamingless of from the start on. Um but uh I would say like Peter and I we knew it was starting, so yeah we know each other already. Um we've we're friends, uh at least in the same friend circle. Um and when we both sit together and started to found the company, we did it in February ourselves, just the two of us, but realized that if we want to build a marketplace um which is really tech heavy automatically, of course. Um, we need someone who is a technical expert and specifically really thinking about our founder team has to consist all of a CTO as well. So we missed this CTO part and tech part. Um so we searched in the Vienna ecosystem for a tech co-founder. Um I had a couple of interviews with different people, um, and one potential investor who then didn't invest it into us but connected us to Jürgen

💻 jürgen built alone what six people couldn't

SPEAKER_01 7:58

and we had a really good conversation with him. Um, he told us that you know he's happy to do some showcase work for a couple of weeks or months so that we can see his technical expertise. Um and you know, this was really outstanding. I think he's an absolute genius at what we have what he is doing, and uh uh funny cyber maybe on this one because we also, in parallel of searching for a CTO, we then asked some agencies for what it would cost for creating a whole marketplace platform um externally, like not building it ourselves. Um, and the outcome was that I think it was around 200,000 euros and six developers for six months. Uh, and Jürgen built it alone in five months. Uh showcasing how he is. Yeah. Um, but of course it was a bit of a uh I would say like a different different typical start in the beginning because we were we knew each other already, like since three years at this point, or three and a half years, and lived in the same city, uh went out partying, doing studying, you know, spent a lot of time together, and then a third person getting in. Um so I think specifically for Jürgen, it was not so easy at the beginning to not see himself as a third wheel in this in this uh combination of us founders. Um, but we also really strongly try to give him the confidence that you know we are a three people found the team and not a two plus one founder team. So that he's also um as part of the journey as we are. Yeah. And I think after uh a short time we also realized this quite fast. And um this then brought us together and the skills that we all three combined. I mean, you you kind of said a bit about like what the expertise of ours is and was. Um this really resulted in this, you know, perf I think kind of literally perfect. Literally. Um, not only for us internally, but also when we um did investors uh conversations and did fundraising where they were like, I mean, if this combination of people with the skills and this background cannot solve this puzzle uh of your startup journey, then who can? And I think this was a mo one of the most important key factors for the success of our business because I personally believe that the the founder team is one of the most crucial aspects of really building a successful business.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Agreed, agreed. If you've made it this far, we are basically friends. Watching on YouTube, hit the like and subscribe button, listening on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you stream your podcast, hit the follow and like, and so that you can tune in for more next week. As you mentioned, marketplaces are

🐔 standing on mariahilfer strasse surveying strangers

SPEAKER_00 10:23

quite unique because there's almost like a chicken and egg problem where you need to have the sellers and the buyers, and A, as you know, takes a lot of trust to get people onto the platform. What were some of the biggest challenges you experienced at the start? Um, noting obviously the technical part, but likely Jurgen was able to build that. Yeah, what what other challenges did you experience that were?

SPEAKER_01 10:44

In general, I would say like uh specifically Europe, we have a huge problem with biocracy. So um all of this is only annoying. This could be like I think it's too boring for the listeners, terrible group bureaucracy here. Um but a general huge problem, and I and Europe is not looking into tackling this with the EU 28 uh regime, so which hopefully makes a lot of things easier um with founding a company and really building something up. But um, I would say like one of the big challenges always chicken egg, as you said. Um in our case, it's not really was not such a big problem, to be honest, because I was building up the whole place at Amazon, so I had the network and I knew the people, so which kind of helped us in the beginning. So, like one or two sellers, for example, helped us to tell us, yeah, okay, we support you despite that you don't have customers, um, just as a kind of giving something back because I supported them when I was when they wanted to give something back. And interesting wise, one of these three starting sellers um is still one of our top 10 sellers and literally grew with us massively. So it's a it's a really great showcase about long-term relationships. Um but the second piece I think is really more difficult, is acquiring customers. Um, because when you're starting a company, uh you always think about yourself as the customer. And when you I probably, if you're looking in the society, not sure how much percentage we three as founders, types of people, and maybe the background, uh, demographics and so on are representing of the whole society. So you're trying to build a communication to target you as a customer, but then you're missing out probably only 8% of the remaining society. So um uh what we then learned really fast was we had to interview the average person on the street, literally. So we were standing in the um one of the most busy uh uh shopping streets here in Vienna, it crossed Neue Hilfestraße, and we were literally standing there for a couple of days and talked to random people, stop them uh and surveyed them about refurbished products, would they buy them, what would be they conscious about, what is important for them, what information they want to have to really understand the average person um and not just us. Um, because I also think one of the biggest failures of startups and founders in the beginning is they talk to their friends and family and ask them, what do you like about our idea? And because they like you or they love you because they are maybe your family, your parents, they will tell you it's an amazing idea and you should pursue that. Despite that, maybe they think it doesn't make sense, but they will not tell you. So if you talk to r random strangers, they have no problem to tell you it's absolutely bullshit or whatever it is. So this really helped us, I would say, and the start of solving the customer topic in the regard that we had to adjust a lot of the marketing messages and target groups of those channels where we targeted the customers over the time.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

So, what were the initial feedback you received from customers? Were they excited or open about the idea?

SPEAKER_01 13:35

And I mean the biggest point, which I think is also um, of course, logical, is okay, it's a used product and then it's refurbished and then it's functional like new.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

So warranty.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

How does it work? Yeah. Can I trust this? Uh does it really work? What happens if it doesn't work? So I would say the trust element was um always the biggest important factor because the customers they love the low price, right? Uh of course, I mean, if something is cheaper, you always like it. Um you have a warranty like a new product. So technically, there's also risk-free. And then we also told them that it's more sustainable, which is also logical because you extended a lifetime. Um but then it was like, okay, it's cheaper, it's more sustainable, and then as a warranty is risk-free. So where's the catch? It's too good to be true. Literally had customers calling us in the beginning specifically and told us, hey, um, you accidentally sent me a new product. We had like, what do you mean? Yeah, I mean slow scratch, like actions, so like it has to be wrong, right? And I think this learning was so insightful for us because we we knew that it's working, right? But on the other hand, we we were like, how the others don't understand this because it was automatically logical. Um so we had to really like play much more about the how can we convincing customers to kind of click on the buy button. This one example is that we, for example, extended the um the return policy from 14 days to 30 days, and we called it a free test phase, which means you can freely buy the product, uh, test it for 30 days, and if you don't like it for any reason, you can sell it back for free, get your whole money back. And this kind of resulted in customers clicking the buy button, testing it, they were like, wow, this really works, it's amazing. And then even proactively telling it their friends and family that it is, you know, they found this new amazing uh business opportunity, buying product cheaper, more sustainable, and they should also buy it. And we had a huge amount of referrals without even like paying for referrals because it was kind of free of charge.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Which is the best marketing model.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Yeah, it's it's the best that you can also the showcases that you're doing something right with the business. Exactly. Because if people referring you, they will not do it if they don't like it. So this was, I think, a really important sp uh aspect in the beginning for really growing the business fast.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

For sure. So which markets did you target at the start?

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Germany and Austria from day one. Um I mean, we are based in Austria from our headquarters perspective, um, but we also realized that the Austrian market alone is too small for really testing and building something big, uh, as it's just 10% of the German population size. So, of course, a huge difference. So we um launched both at the same time, and it's quite interesting because in Germany everyone thinks we're a German company, Australia thinks we're an Austrian company. So um we also try to build it up in the way that we are connected to the culture, because in many, like probably it's globally countries, patriotism is still a thing. And so they prefer to buy from a local, local company. Um, uh, and therefore we are in Germany, we are a German company, Australia an Austrian company. Um, but at the end of the day, customers get the same good quality of products.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

As I should. So uh let's talk about the money side of things. So Refurbed raised over 120 million euros across four rounds, which is impressive. Congratulations. At what point did you start feeling the weight of managing um other people's money? Because a lot of founders think that raising rounds and having money is really, really great. But as you know, it comes with a lot of pressure. So what was that like and how have you managed that over time?

SPEAKER_01 16:58

And I think it was more than 150 million, um to be honest, but like 150, no more company. Um I would say that in general, um we I mean, I I was like as a founder, you have different kinds of weights on your shoulder, right? Uh and um for for me, I mean I can just maybe speak personally for myself now and not for Peter and Jürgen as well, but for myself it was also from a start on the weight of the our colleagues and employees. Um because I mean you're providing them a job, and somehow many of them have families, and so which they also providing their livelihood with the job that they can having through us. So this was already a weight, um, I think on our shoulders. Where the difference I probably always think is the majority of people and being employed in a startup, they don't even have this really understanding about the entrepreneurial perspective, uh, this maybe could go wrong and compared to uh 120 years existing corporate, which has probably a higher chance of assisting about 120 years than the average startup, um uh is a is a more risky um employment that you have as a as a as a person. Um, but for us it was really important because we we believe that the foundation of success is also the culture that you have in the company. This means the people that are working together with you. Um so there was always already pressure, I would say. Um but also in a positive way. Uh, because I think sometimes also pressure helps. And I mean, this great example of the diamonds, right? Like only pressure creates diamonds and it's a bit cheesy. But um I also believe that if you really want to build something big, you need to have some pressure of creating it. On the investor side, of course, it was as well. I mean, there were external people which like betting on your idea. Uh, because in the end of the day, investors is often a bit of a betting game because you never know exactly what happens, and of course, the risk profile of investing into startups and into an ETF or whatever is much higher. Um But I would say that the investors that we had, they were all impact-driven, which um specifically in the beginning, which was really important for us because um we really want to make sure that we have investors which also believe in the positive change we want to create and the impact that we want to create. Uh, and this makes it of course much easier if you have investors which also believe in it and not like turning around every corner and saying, ah, we can destroy the environment a bit more, but making more cash. This was not the case. Uh, and still I would believe

📊 90% of investors said delete the sustainability slide

SPEAKER_01 19:23

that it was try quite quite hard to select them because when we did the first funding around nine years ago, um, our preced round, uh, and we had our pitch deck, and I still remember the first slide was a huge uh electronic waste then fill and showcasing what electronic waste has created because of how we're living and consuming as a human society and the implant that refurbishment didn't create. And I would say 90% of the investors told us, you know, really cool presentation. I really like the founding team, um, the numbers look really promising, but you know, delete the first slide doesn't hold that.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

And we were like, oh, we really care. So then that's why we're doing it, right? So it was really frustrating that you saw that the majority of investors at this point of time didn't care. They just moved to make money, right? And they didn't care about the impact. And the impact investors were a small round, yeah, which were starting to exist.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Um Do you think that's changed over time now?

SPEAKER_01 20:16

I think it changed. Um I think that the share of investors which are having an impact focus is much bigger. Um also, I mean, it's also a bit strongly related to the case that the European Investment Fund, um, which is funding also the funds uh in the end of the investing, um, or which is kind of the biggest LP in the majority of European funds. Um, they have criteria now where they're requiring a part of the investment has to be impactful social. Um so they have to search for opportunities at least in the portfolio, which also have more of these kind of areas, which is I mean, again, it's all about regulation, right? It kind of creates in the spiral that they have to, and now they do, and it's positive. Um, the spiral would be much better if they would do it for themselves, not uh if they are forced, so for a relation side. Um but I think what is really important here is that we need more businesses which have an impact. And why I think we we were able to raise uh these four rounds of funding that you said on this one fifty million, is because we had a business model which grows like financially, but also sustainable. And the majority of other business models that I know, they normally have the issue that if they want to grow further, at one point they're harming.

unknown 21:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Um and so I think our business case was great because investors were like, we can invest for the financial growth, but we can still put a crazy check on the impact side of it.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Which is very rare. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's amazing. In 2023, uh the public filing showed that there was a net loss of 20 million euros. And at that time, Refurbed also had about 63 million euros in revenue, which is amazing. However, you then raised another 57 million a few months later. From the outside, as a lay person, that might look Like a really interesting move. What was happening internally and how did that all play out?

SPEAKER_01 22:05

We are like a classic venture capital game, I would say, in this startup world. So we are bootstrapped and we we knew that if we really want

📉 €20M loss, €63M revenue, raised €57M anyway

SPEAKER_01 22:13

to create the biggest possible impact, we have to raise a lot of money to reach as much customers as possible and enabling them to buy more sustainable refurbishment instead of buying something new. So that we on purpose started from the beginning on of raising capital and also on purpose creating sometimes losses. I think what is important for us is always that what we see is that the country we are active in, we want to make as profitable as fast as possible. So for example, like Austria is really profitable for us, Germany is profitable for us. But the new markets we're launching in, we are, of course, at the beginning, we are negative as we have to invest much more marketing in the beginning, branding to reach customers, because there's no awareness about us in the first place when we're starting to launch a country. So why we have losses from time to time is built on the case that we are expanding to new countries, doing pre-invest of creating a brand marketing. And it's normally always the case if you're reaching a specific amount of customers' percentage of the society or awareness in that country, then you turn profitable because then the referral comes in again. So it's kind of then the spiral effect that if more people know you, more people refer you, if more people refer you, you will sell more. So then it's uh uh it it really helps in the engine comes into effect.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

You have to spend money to make money, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Yeah, exactly. And as a marketplace model normally works that the the first purchase is nearly possible, nearly positive or on the edge, but then on the second and third and fourth purchase, then you you make it a bit profitable business. But of course, when we talk about electronics, you don't need a phone every two months, like I don't know, maybe fashion, right? Where you have a t-shirt and you probably buy another child a couple of weeks later. So um we therefore also expanded our product portfolio so far so that we are not only selling smartphones anymore, laptops that we started, but now we have household devices, kitchen products, sports equipment, even baby and kids equipment, outside of electronics, so really a wide range of different product categories so that customers are more likely to come back faster and therefore make it positive. So um I think at this point of time, for example, when you when you're touching this, we expanded to a couple of new markets. Um I mean, and just uh this year in February, we expanded to 12 new markets. So we expanded from or we grew from 12 existing European markets to 24 European markets, and we're now the largest um refurbished marketplace by markets across Europe. Uh and this, of course, also again results in some spending that we have to create to ensure that more customers understand what we are doing, what our value position is, um, and convincing them that there is a better alternative of buying products than buying new. Uh and this is the results. So we we did it on purpose. But for example, last year we went profitable as a whole organization.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Um and in C base, we could be again tomorrow profitable if we, for example, would say that we're now stopping specific markets where we now try to pre-invest first. Yeah. Um and this was a really important for us. We want to build a sustainable system in the way that um we have everything in our own hands. We're not relying anymore on uh external funding because, of course, also depending on the market situation and everything and economic cycle, yeah. Yeah, and I mean the uncertainty we have now, I think, is one of the probably biggest uncertainties uh since decades. So we wanted to be self-sustainable and we are self-sustainable now.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

No, that's amazing. Congratulations. There was another very interesting phenomenon where there were unfortunately some layoffs, and then um shortly after some funds being raised as well. Talk me through what happened there and I guess the decisions that led to that happening.

😔 the layoffs, the most painful moments of his life

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Specifically because we really believe that uh, as I said before, like the team is the core of the business, right? And uh creates the culture, um, creates the success. So um going through decision of layoffs was uh one of the most painful times of my life, I would say, not even of my business life, but probably of my whole life. Wow. Um but I also have to admit that we never did layoffs before. I mean, of course we let someone go, right? But we did do layoffs of like letting go 10, 20% before, like even during COVID, where I think a lot of companies also used the chance because everyone was doing it, of letting people go because it was just like easier to do, to reduce costs. We decided not to do anything. Um, and and then of course the Ukraine crisis happened where another time um the topics about layoffs happened a lot in a lot of uh startups and scale-ups across the globe. So we took a different approach and said, like we don't want to do it, but then we reached a point where um we saw that we were not growing fast enough at one point, but also not profitable enough, but also realized really fast that automatization came in. I mean the AI topic. Um and I think we just had too much overhead. Um and this of course is always a difficult decision to take, but we also saw that we have to know optimizing um uh our our our organization, I would say, and building it up in the most efficient way that we can now go for the next time of the of the organization. Um and this was of course really tough, and um the reduction was painful not only for us founders, but also of course for everyone who was affected, but also for the remaining team, which is still there. Um but I would say in the end, I was even like positively surprised that some people we let go literally asked me in the where told them about that they have to go, like in the middle of the talks, they asked me how I feel. I was really like personally overwhelmed a bit because like if if you tell someone that you let them go, they still were like feeling with it. I mean, because they I think that they they were they all knew that it's not something that you just want to do. It was kind of something we had to do and they understood it, and this was something which really won my heart because I think this also shows the culture that we have created as a company, and um normally the founders are at least at the beginning playing a huge important part of creating the culture, and so having this results seeing there was showing me that we as founder team did something good, despite that the outcome which we had now was really horrible. Um I think we grew much stronger as an organization afterwards. I mean, first of all, I think we were much more efficient because we probably also optimized some areas where we just haven't looked or had people there for such a long time and we never changed anything. Um but then also we were forced kind of internally to automate much more and be more efficient, specifically on the AI front. Um, and I think you all everyone talks about AI, and I also believe it's one of the biggest changes we have uh as a human society. Um but still, of course, people are always a bit afraid about change. Um specifically it's it's gonna affect their everyday life, their job, whatever they're doing. So for us it was really important to explain them, hey, it's about to optimizing your the areas which you don't like to work in. Yeah um and they're supporting you. And now we have a smaller organization than before, but we are a much bigger already as an organization. And I think this little tweaks that we did there, now everyone is really on board and really loves what we are doing, and it makes us as an organization much more successful.

🌍 the poland mistake and the expansion playbook

SPEAKER_01 29:34

So as horrible as it was, it's sadly luckily, and depending on the perspective, it was also the right decision. Because I think the worst case would be if it was the wrong decision and then you still have to done it.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Exactly. Exactly. No, makes perfect sense. So you're now in over about 11 countries, and as you mentioned earlier, each one has very different regulatory requirements, different probably consumer behaviors, and so you would have to approach them in slightly different ways. What expansion decision do you regret, or was maybe the most difficult one that comes to mind is Poland. Um you made that attempt, then pulled back. There might be others as well. I'm really interested in hearing more about that strategy and how you approach that.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

Yeah, so I mean expansion was for us always really important because we really want to be this one-stop shop for standard consumption in Europe. And so kind of Europe is our first big target picture where so many people are living in Europe, so uh there's so much more growth that we can achieve. We now sold around 10 million products um uh since we started the company. And um our goal is that at one point every European household is one refurbished device.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

So um still some space to go, I would say. Um yeah, I mean expansion was really important. Technically, we expanded directly from the start because we had we are from Austria and we went to Germany, but it's a bit of a question if it always counts as they often like lost together. Um our first expansion outside of uh of um uh of Austria and Germany of the German-speaking region was in Poland or Italy. Um, I think in Poland we we made the mistake that we thought we can kind of use the same delegate position um than we have in Germany and Austria, also in Poland, um, and haven't 100% considered the cultural differences that might are normally between different cultures automatically. So um there was a problem that sustainability was not playing such an important role in Poland, specifically like 10 years ago, nine years ago, um, and that price is an even stronger driver than in the shift religions. So you had a lot of the the competition against um peer-to-peer platform, where of course you are cheaper because there's also no warranty. But for the Polish people, for example, it doesn't really matter. So like Facebook Marketplace or these kind of marketplaces platforms um where we don't have a warranty if you if you sell the products. And in Germany, for example, is it the totally opposite, right? That like for I don't know, like a table or a chair, it doesn't matter, you can check it. But for a phone, if you're now trading it and to a private person, and that you you pay them with the cash and you get the device and you walk away. And if it's 10 minutes, it's broken, you'll have no money and you have no rights. So it's a different story for electronics, right? And this was, I think, our great value position in uh in in Germany where the people are much more risky-verse, I would say, than in Poland. Um, but then of course we also realize okay, it doesn't really work, so we um reduced the marketing span and kind of kept it a bit on the side, but not really successful. Um, and then continuously works in our playbook. And I mean, one learning was then, for example, we should have a local uh marketing person that stands the culture and knows what kind of messaging, communication we have to uh set up to ensure that we're reaching the customers in the right possible way, next to research before we start, even right the market research. Um, so we created what we call our market expansion playbook, um, which kind of consists of all of the criteria that we learned, what we did wrong, what we could do better. And for every expansion, we updated this booklet. So now it contains kind of the learnings and challenges and um failures that we have created over. I mean, now we are 24 uh markets, so at least 22 expansions if you Germany and Austria lot is one. Um and it was really interesting because now every kind of every new market we're launching is faster um profitable than the other ones. So we really implemented, I would say, the learnings that we that we had um uh over time. But yeah, I mean like in general, expansion you learn a lot, right? Because like different currencies make a lot of complications, uh different payment methods per country where some people use it much more. So I would say expansion across countries is one of the biggest challenges that you have as an organization, as a company. Um but I would say we we we try to optimize as much as possible, but we're still iterating all the time. One of our principles to the company is iterate, iterate, iterate because you believe that you're not you're never perfect, right? So you always have to constantly improve. And the market expansion example, I think, is a great one where we had to learn a lot in the beginning because we did a lot of things also wrong, but we really also implemented this cultural mindset of improving on the failure and building something better afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

No, that makes a lot of sense. Because as you said, you're not just expanding to a new country. It's interesting with Poland that they don't really care much about um warranties or things like that because they earn a lot less than in Austria and Germany. And yeah, their focus is a lot different. So it makes a lot of sense. What was it like getting major brands like Dyson and others to partner with you? Because on one hand, I can see how they might see you as a bit of a threat. Um,

🤝 convincing dyson that refurbed reaches their customers

SPEAKER_00 34:33

but on the other hand, it's also a really great business longevity model for them. So, what were those conversations like? Were they quite receptive or were they apprehensive? And it doesn't have to be about Dyson particularly, but just major brands, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

I would say that in general, the the the big brands were not really focusing much, right? I mean, um they make 99% probably of the revenue, maybe even 100%, we're selling new products. That is kind of the business model, and therefore also they they have this replacement cycles and new innovative products as fast as possible so that customers are buying again and again and again from the same brand. Um but of course, also the last couple of years, I think the big brands all started to sustainability is an important aspect for the society, for the for customers of theirs, so how they can implement more sustainable business models. Of course, circular economy is a huge important aspect and into specifically the hardware sphere. So um we reached out to them and talked to many of them about it, and they saw it as a mainly cannibalization aspect towards new products, so that people, they for example, who displayed on the website, that they customers then choose the reflection offering and the new offering. Which is less still want to sell the new products, right? They produced. So um we talked to them a lot about it and um they thought about a cannibalization aspect, and then we tried to showcase them that we believe we giving them another customer group that they're not receiving yet, because when you you talked about Dyson, but we also work with um AEG, with Kiacha, with the Longi, so like some of the really specific high, I would say like more the mid to high-end brands in the specific product category, so high-priced. Um, and I mean if you're using the Dyson example, this is I guess the majority of people knew. A vacuum clean off Dyson is probably like 400 euros or 500 euros, like if you buy it new. And you can also buy you know another no-name brand uh vacuum cleaner for 80 euros, right? So if you cannot afford a 400 or 500 euros, which many people cannot afford, they will not buy a Dyson despite that they would love to have a Dyson. So we now enable them with a lower price as well for refurbished products that they could reach a customer who would love to have a Dyson but cannot afford a new one. And this was quite interesting. What's convincing them because it was like, okay, ah, it's maybe not only about cannibalization, and especially if we don't do it over our own website, but to a another platform, like Refurbed, for example. Um and I would say like the most interesting part is that the quality aspect because for them it was really important, okay, we are high-end brands, so we want to have the quality and brand communication, that it's clear that it's not like cheap secondhand stuff, but it's really high quality of product as well. And the website showcases this as well, and the product offering showcases this. And I guess that this is one of the results why we also were able to get these partnerships. Um, because I mean one competitor of ours, they had a claim which calls um uh fuck new, not sure if we can uh uh there was issued the claim. Wow, I think it makes it difficult for convincing a brand which is basically their sales on new favorites. Uh and we from the start on, we really tried to you know build our brand on quality. As I mentioned before, trust was such an important element. So, also how we designed the website, how we went the like the customer experience through the flow of the purchase decision. We also to showcase, hey, this is high quality, you can trust it, and this is the most important aspect. So this was also something which convinced the brands a lot. They want to work with us specifically and saw a lot of opportunities in this partnership.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. I can also see how for some brands, maybe that doesn't fit their business model because maybe they do just want people to continuously just buy new and new and new, and maybe they don't build for quality, but they build for return customers. So, no, that's really interesting. On a personal note, being a founder, as you know, is extremely challenging. What keeps you up at night at the moment that's not mission-driven, but more on the business side? What what are your biggest challenges?

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Um I mean, I would say like one really uh big topic that

🌱 what keeps him up at night

SPEAKER_01 38:38

I'm spending a lot of time on, but I think it's a really crucial moment right now um across the globe, but specifically also in Europe, is the policy worker regulations. Um I personally believe that climate change is the biggest threat we have as a human society. Um and sustainability and the climate has is always kind of important, but it's so long-term in the regard that you know the the temperature will raise over the next 100 years. Like, okay, I mean I'm 36, so what is happening 100 years, I'm not there anymore, right? So it's not a short-term problem. It's more I mean it is a short-term problem as well, but it's specifically a long-term problem. Um, and this means that we always talk about climate change and what we have to do to take out the climate crisis, but then something short-term pops up. I mean, it's it was COVID, then it was of course a war in Ukraine, um, now it's uh the war in Iran, so across the globe. And then it's always like, okay, oh, climate change can wait, we do it afterwards. Um, but it's not stopping, right? Like the problem consistently exists and just gets more and more difficult and problematic in the future. So on European level, we have now a lot of really important legislations uh on the on the table, which are currently discussed. Um it's um our industry is the right to repair, but it's the Circular Economy Act, it's eco design, it's a new legislation framework, sort of topics which are that will define how circular economy, for example, is treated in in Europe and how much it enables future businesses, we not just in our our industry, but in general, to strive in creating a more impactful business model. Um so I I'm kind of what what keeps me awake is a bit, do we and the politicians specifically understand this seriousness of this issue to tackle it now? Because if we're not tackling it soon, um it will be too late. And I was sometimes asked, like, do you still believe and fight climate change? It can you know solve the problem? I would say, like, yes, if I'm not you know not believing in it, then you know I can also stop working and just you know enjoy the remaining life of time of my life and then die because there is no purpose anymore for future generations. Um but I think we still have an opportunity, but we also have to act now. And this is also why I'm trying to be as active on the European policy side to showcasing what we can change, how important it is, but that that there are also alternatives, and that just don't mean just refer to the alternative, but in general that there are businesses, which particularly about circular economy, that that want to create the energy transformation. So there are a lot of things happening, and we really should start thinking about the long term, not just in the short term.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Do you think that the tide is turning and that politicians are starting to understand that more, or do you think there's still like I mean just a practical example, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Like um uh I'm literally every quarter or something in Brussels and um meeting some MPs there. And a couple of years ago, probably like in 2020, before COVID happened, 1920, when the Circular Economy Act was um uh introduced in in Europe, environmental climate change was a huge important topic. And this was the argumentation you have to say. Now, if I'm in Brussels and talking to uh politicians, I'm not really using the argument about like, you know, climate change and all of these parts, but I use the argument about like independence, like you know, circular economy would allow us to be independent from outside of Europe because the resources would stay here, you know, we can first of all we can extend the lifetime, then we can also uh recycle the materials we have, then the materials again for production here. And this is now the argument that this is support uh independency right now. We don't want to depend on outside of Europe. And I mean for me, in the end of the day, if they do more circular economy because of a dependency, independence, then they still do something positive for the planet, right? So I don't really care so much about why they're doing it, at least they do it. It's still sad for me sometimes to realize that they don't see the issue what climate change is a first priority. Um, but it's the same as with our customers, right? I mean, not all of the customers buying from us because they uh want to do something positive for the environment, but many of them maybe want to save money, right? Or um if someone who denies climate change buys from us, also fine for me because accidentally they do something positive for the right. So I I would say this is a bit of a this is something which keeps me awake at night um because I think it's such a turning point right now where we really have to do something. And I really hope that they will happen, that something will happen. Um and hopefully I can also do my little parts of make it happen.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

No, agreed. I'm glad you're fighting that fight because yeah, good luck. So we're gonna wrap up with some four rapid fire questions. Uh the first one,

⚡ rapid fire and gut feeling over data

SPEAKER_00 43:23

what's the best market you've entered and the most difficult one that you've entered?

SPEAKER_01 43:27

Um I think the one of the best ones is probably Sweden. Um makes sense. Yeah. One doesn't work. I mean, Poland in the first place yes, it didn't work at all. Uh it didn't work. And now it works really successfully because we relaunched it um a couple of months ago. Yeah, probably I would because the other ones are working quite well. So I have to say Poland.

SPEAKER_00 43:48

And your favorite product category?

SPEAKER_01 43:50

Favorite product category. I really like the household devices. And then moved one one year ago to a new flat, and actually I have everything now refurbished from a washing machine to a tea kettle, um to everything else. So my household is kind of a refurbishouse.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

Okay, I love that. You mentioned earlier that you studied in Shanghai, but you also studied in Hamburg and London. Which cities shaped how you approach building the most?

SPEAKER_01 44:15

I would say I mean Hamburg I spent my next to Vienna now the majority of my life. Um so a lot of the things in Hamburg, um, friends, family, um, network around shaped how I am today. Um on the business side, I think China also shaped me a lot because it was such an international environment. Um, I worked there for some Chinese companies to be understand about like how the market there is, how the cultural differences are. And I would say these cultural differences, understanding how different stereotypes of culture are also affecting day-to-day operations and business is something which was really important for me to learn because now we're so international as well, with 24 countries where we are active in. So really having a good understanding of this and learning this um early on, I think was really important for the success of the business. It's or of my part of the success of the business.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Yeah. So marketplace business versus a product business. If you're to start from scratch tomorrow, which would you choose? Because they're very different and yeah, just intrigued.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

I mean, I personally believe that the uh that the marketplace business model um makes a lot of sense because you combine a lot of the positive aspects, like what you cannot do when you have your own online shop, for example, with a with a product that you're just selling yourself. So um you have the much wider um variety of products, right? Selection for the customers will always be the best offering because sellers competing and therefore automatically gets the best offering. Of course, the only difficulty I think is always to ensure that everything works perfectly all the time. But if you know the right tricks, I think you can really make it happen. So I personally believe that marketplaces are superior as well.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

Agreed, agreed. And last question what's one thing you'd do differently? I know this is very hard because it's been nine years, there's been a lot happening. Yeah. What comes to mind?

SPEAKER_01 45:54

It's difficult to say because we never pivoted our company. So literally Which is so rare. Yeah, we're to do for the first place, we still do um exactly the same. Yeah, I mean, I I I think sometimes um I would tell my my my starting founder self or something like this that you should even more hear on your gut feeling from time to time, specifically I think on people's side, because we're a really data-driven company, uh, which I think is really great because also data, if you have an updata, it always tells, or most likely tells the truth if you're an updata. But I think sometimes on people's side, I I know a couple of examples where I think we work with external people or with our internal people where I had a bad gut feeling, and a couple of months or years later chokes shows off that it was really the the wrong thing. Um yeah, I think this would be something sometimes the gut feeling is is much stronger than you think you expect.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

This has been really good.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

It was great to be here. Thank you very much for having me.