The Sanders - How Obedience, Grief, and Calling Shaped Marriage and Ministry - PIP S2 E3 Part 2

We continue our conversation with the Sanders and trace their path from music ministry to launching a church, the hard call to merge for the sake of healing, and the surprising doors that opened after obedience. Grief becomes a teacher, serenity a practice, and marriage the covenant they protect while serving a historic congregation.

• accepting the call from music to ministry leadership
• mentorship that demanded righteousness before platform
• community outreach shaping a broader view of ministry
• launching a church, then merging to prioritize healing
• prophecy confirmed, exposure to global ministry tools
• processing grief, wrestling with God, rebuilding trust
• writing as a pathway to serenity and resilience
• covering a spouse through crisis and parenting in loss
• stepping into a historic church assignment with balance
• defining success as obedience, not scale

Keep pressing into your purpose!

Thanks for listening! 

Until next time, continue to press into your purpose!

You can watch the video and Subscribe on Youtube.com @PressedIntoPurpose or learn more about our host at ValeriaWright.com

Transcript

Accepting The Call

SPEAKER_04 0:03

On this episode, we continue our conversation.

SPEAKER_05 0:07

Well, let's let's talk about uh ministry specifically.

SPEAKER_04 0:11

So you say you uh accepted your call pretty much right after you all get married. Um and you briefly mentioned that you shut a church down, and we now know that you all are pastors again. So can you can you give us a picture of what that journey has looked like for you all? Except you accepting the call. And um I'm gonna I'm just gonna go out here and say it. You are preacher. Um so uh both of you accepting the call and then accepting the call to ministry, but then also accepting the call to pastor, what has that looked like and how has that uh shaped your marriage?

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Um, first of all, it happened quick. So after the marriage, after the baby was born, after my first sermon, I jumped right into ministry serving. Prior to that, I'll say this. As a musician, I went through that journey. I was a musician, then I was the assistant MD, then I was the choir director, then I was the first praise and worship leader for my church. So I was already being groomed to be up front. Gotcha. Um, and so after that, that time, um, I was already in the place where, you know, I was getting familiar with the mic, being in front of people. So I was transitioning from the drums type of deal. And so when I became the praise and worship leader, that's when, right around the time we got married. And so when I accepted my call, I was already used to serving. So I already knew how to serve. I was just serving at a different capacity because I was led to become my pastor's armor bearer. Okay. Pastor at the time didn't know nothing about armor bearing, so I'm sitting around like an idiot grabbing Bibles, and he like, give me my Bible. You know, that wasn't a thing back then. And so I went through that journey, serving, serving. I became, I don't know if I can say this. But I was I was a favorite, you know what I'm saying, and side of the house to the point where my pastor kind of, you know, cuffed me. Okay. So he was walking me through stuff, you know, preaching and uh uh Bible class, communion, classes, you know, baptism. I mean, he just walked me through all of that stuff. And so served there, did all of that. Um, then we got to a uh uh threshold. So I had an opportunity to become the youth pastor

From Musician To Ministry Leader

SPEAKER_01 2:45

at another organization from uh Apostle Robbie Wilkerson, who went to Jordan Temple with me. Okay. Um I had an opportunity to go with him because at this time I started feeling that pastoral grace. Okay. And so my pastor released me to be with Apostle Rob, and that's when I discovered, like, out of the four walls of the church ministry. Like, they was having noonday service with recovering drug addicts, and the street people were in there as they call them, you know. And so it's 12 o'clock, we doing a session and we going to a full deliverance. 30 people get saved. You know, it was stuff like that that I had an opportunity to witness because this church was very community-driven.

SPEAKER_03 3:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

So I had an opportunity to see that. And because I was taking her along with me, she had been going through this whole intercessor thing. How about intercessor? Um, went to Living Word, got all of this stuff, and so when we transitioned to this new place, it was like an open door to all of the stuff that we had been thinking about doing.

SPEAKER_07 3:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

And so I'm being groomed to be a pastor, she's being grown to be an intercessor, dealing with the prophetic, the whole nine. And so we served there, and um he came, the pastor at the time said, Okay, it's time, you know, get you out of here, because you know, you we you're ready.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

And so he released us. We started a church in 2010. We started the worship center church in Maywood.

SPEAKER_03 4:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

And so we did that five years, six years. During that time, uh Apostle Reggie was my mentor. Okay. I had already known him from like, you know, being in the community choir and all of that.

SPEAKER_04 4:35

Judas sang at our install at your installation.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Sung at my installation. No, Lifeline Praise Team sang at my installation. It was a lifeline praise team. Okay, okay. And so, you know, we already had a relationship, and so he was really close to me. And so I was always pulling on him with something. That mentoring space transitioned to being my pastor. Okay. And so once he became my pastor, and I became, we joined Lifeline. And so myself along with the church, you know, we became um covenant, broke covenant with Lifeline. And so that time, that's when my mom had passed. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 5:13

The very next year.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

The very next year, my mom transitioned. And when her mom transitioned,

Community Work Outside Church Walls

SPEAKER_01 5:20

here it is. We're in church, and I have an open vision during the start of our church. Service, you know. They singing and everybody, and I'm just sitting in the corner and I have an open vision of my wife having a nervous breakdown. This is during service. It's an open vision so I can see it as clear as day.

SPEAKER_07 5:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Her mom is gone, she's struggling, she has a nervous breakdown, service stops, everybody's panicking, screaming the whole nine, ambulance comes. All of this. I'm seeing this doing service. And so once that moment is over, and you know, I come too, I couldn't shape that vision.

unknown 6:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

And so I'm like, hey Lord, you know, what's going on? Because this is my primary responsibility.

SPEAKER_03 6:09

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

And so I remember clearly in my time of prayer, God says to me, I need you to take care of your bride, and I'll take care of mine. And I really didn't know what that meant.

SPEAKER_03 6:25

Yeah, I was gonna say, what does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 6:27

I'm like, okay, you know, what are we talking about? And it just so happened that Pastor Reggie and I had been talking about merging, because he was always asking me, you know, is ministry where you wanted to be? What is it that you're not doing that you want to do? And I'm like, I want to be broad, I want to do certain things, I want to do this and another. And so um, in conversation here, and I was talking, and he flat out asked me, like, have you ever considered just, you know, shutting it down, coming, spending the season at Lifeline?

SPEAKER_03 7:01

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

And when he said it, I was like, you know, no, I haven't.

SPEAKER_03 7:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm the pastor. Like, what do you mean?

SPEAKER_03 7:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

But but I kept hearing God say, take care of your wife, and I'll take care of my church.

unknown 7:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

And I talked to her about it, and at this point, she's not at nervous breakdown status.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

Yeah. But I was all the way to the city.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

She close, like she checked out.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

And so long story short, we tr we merged our church, we shut our church down, merged with Lifeline, and we didn't even make an announcement.

SPEAKER_04 7:41

And Prophet Michelle McLean stood us up and said at a um revival or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

And she says, Um, you didn't miss God. You heard him right. Okay. And she says, Um success is defined by obedience.

unknown 8:04

Whew.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

That's why you had to bring obedience in there earlier. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

And when she said that, I looked over at Pastor Reggie, because nobody, nobody knew this. Like, yeah, it was just me and him talked. Yeah. You know, my wife didn't even know it was a done deal. Wow. It was just me and him. And that lady said, God

Launching Their First Church

SPEAKER_01 8:24

says you're doing the right thing. Success is defined by obedience. And then she starts prophesying about different platforms. She said, God is gonna enlarge your ministry for you to be on a bigger. There's a big platform that God is creating for you, and he's gonna prepare you. At this time, I'm done. So you know.

SPEAKER_04 8:41

And so was Pastor.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

They holding me up at this time.

unknown 8:45

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

So, needless to say, we transitioned to Lifeline, we served.

SPEAKER_04 8:49

It literally was the next Sunday. Yeah, we shut the church down. Oh my god. Like we were like, at this, we heard God.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Because we prayed.

SPEAKER_04 8:57

But the week before that, though, remember we had had a meeting with Pastor, and he says, I'm not rushing the decision. However, go back, pray about it, hear God. Yeah. We'll have a meeting next week, Thursday. Okay. So we can kind of talk about what the Lord said. The revival was like Tuesday. So we had been praying about it. So when she gave us that word, it wasn't even nothing else to say. Yeah.

unknown 9:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

And so we just we prepared our leaders and transitioned, and I did, I laid it out. And uh we walked through it for about a month and we transitioned. And the first year at Lifeline, we didn't really do a lot because she just needed to heal.

SPEAKER_04 9:46

Yeah. I did absolutely nothing.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Me, on the other hand, he was like, Yeah, come on in, because you gotta do this, I need this. So I got right to work. And so we served at Lifeline for seven years. Eight eight years. And during the eight years, I think the exposure to um global ministry, the exposure to um all of the tools that you need to really do ministry, we got.

SPEAKER_03 10:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Okay. I was able to see, you know, behind the scenes stuff.

SPEAKER_03 10:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

You know, how to do staff meetings. Like, what are we talking about? How to have a team, how to do shared leadership, portion order. All of these things that the Lord knew that I would need, I got.

SPEAKER_03 10:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

And then the key thing was uh we were able to do ministry on this platform that this lady prophesied to us. And so, because if you remember, I don't know how long you guys was at uh Lifeline, but when we first got there, it was a the stage wasn't that big. And so they brought the worm, right? It was yeah, and they brought it out and added it.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

Wow, and so it was like a little circle on the floor.

SPEAKER_03 10:59

Okay, so we I think we got there after we came after that, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_03 11:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

And so my first time preaching at Lifeline, that was the platform.

SPEAKER_03 11:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 11:09

Well, they had just enlarged it. They had just enlarged it.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Right. I went there, then we went to Monterey. Mexico. Mexico. So now I'm I'm international, now you can't tell them nothing now. I gotta interpret it. I'm like, oh yeah, this is what we've been waiting on, God. And so just being able to be a part of all of that and soak up all of that and you know, walk through ministry, um, working alongside of Apostle and Pastor London, just opening our eyes to the different avenues of ministry.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

And it looks different, you know, as a senior leader versus I'm just a preacher at the church. And so I was able to see a lot of things. And so, long story short, we we talked about um, you know, going back out, we talked about that a few times, and we considered a lot of different things, and you know, it just wasn't the timing of God, and some things came up and COVID happened and all of this type of stuff.

SPEAKER_07 12:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

And I um I got a call from one

A Vision, Grief, And Obedience

SPEAKER_01 12:20

of my friends, and he says, Hey man, I'm I'm moving to Indianapolis because I need to take over my dad's church and I need your help. And he says, I know, you know, you're at the church, but if you can carve out a Sunday a month or something like that just to help me cover my pulpit and so I, you know, I love the guy, so I'm like, Yeah, no problem. And so I went one Sunday, and then I went another Sunday, and then five or six months later, I had been going there once a month, and um that turned into, you know, interview, process, resume, all of that. Okay, and it just kind of happened. You know, like everything is crazy because like everything in our life had just happened, everything was just happening. That's how stuff works in our life. Okay. Um it just happened. When we rented our first house, it's funny, she's gonna laugh. We we met with this lady, and I don't think we had good credit or nothing.

SPEAKER_07 13:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

And we talked to this lady, his house in Maywood, and she said, Man, there's something about y'all. I'm gonna I'm gonna let y'all rent this house. She said, I got other interviews, but it's yours. And it just happened. Okay. And I feel like everything, you know, we've done in ministry, it just happened. Our first location just happened. It just happened. It wasn't a whole, oh, we gotta find a spot. I called the guy, he was like, Yeah, you could get it. Wow. And so that that situation, when we moved to our other space, met with the pastor, he was like, Man, it's just something about you. Yeah, y'all can come Sunday, you know. Um, and so that just speaks to the hand of favor that's on our lives. And so now, after serving for eight years, learning all of this stuff, God puts us in a church way out. It is far, people. It's far from the people. It's not that from here, it's like enlarge my territory. Yeah, you gotta take the back way. The back way. And so God uh entrusted us with this amazing assignment to take over a historical landmark church. Wow in East Chicago, Indiana, which is just right across the border.

SPEAKER_04 14:41

It's across the street from Chicago. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

And the journey is interesting because I feel like our whole our whole journey in ministry prepared us for this.

SPEAKER_07 14:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

And so we we received the assignment. Um, Apostle came last year, brought the whole church. Um, to this day, I believe that's one of the biggest installations ever in that area.

SPEAKER_03 15:09

Wow. Um We had a good time too, Liza in the Holy Ghost. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

It's a uh a beautiful church, amazing group of people, and you know, God has been faithful with just giving us everything we need to lead them um into the next uh season.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

It's been a year, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:29

It's been one year. We just one year went quick, um, but we've made some major milestones, and so now we're just prepping to go forward. Okay, and so that that's the ministry journey. Um yeah, did I miss something?

SPEAKER_04 15:45

A few things, but it's okay. You want to fill in the gap? So for him, I think he knew that he had a call on his life to preach. Um, and of course, it happened fast after we had our baby boy. For me, not that fast. Okay.

unknown 16:04

Right.

SPEAKER_04 16:04

Because I never considered myself a pulpit preacher. I'm like, that's not me. Okay. But I felt the pull to pray.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 16:12

Always been there, even as a kid. I was raised in a Christian home. My mama loved God. Yeah. So that's what I knew. Going to church was just what we knew. And so I had this pull to pray, but I didn't understand what it was. So it's funny. I went to my pastor and said, um, I feel a pull of ministry. Same pastor that married us. And he says, All right, we're gonna schedule it for you to preach your first sermon. I said, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, that's not what I'm saying. Right, right. Little did I know he

Shutting Down And Merging

SPEAKER_04 16:45

saw it on me. Wow. But I thought it was something different because I was just afraid to say, yes, I'm a preacher. But wow, can we can we just pause for a second because um in the African American church, it has not always been popular for women or accepted for women to preach. And this was the Baptist church. That's what I'm saying. So for a uh an African-American pastor to male pastor to say to you, Yeah, I see, I see it, and come on and let's do it, right, without any hesitation, that's a blessing in itself. I just want the population. And there were women, there were some women preachers already there. Okay, okay. So I think he was just like, we're gonna just put her in line with everybody else. But I'm 25, I just got me. I'm like, wait, no, I'm not preaching. I just want to pray.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:41

But if you know anything about the traditional Baptist church back in those days, they didn't know what that meant. It was like, either you're gonna preach or that's it, because that's what we got. Right. What else is that? Exactly. That's true. And so when I said I was called to be an intercessor, not taking anything from him, but I think he was like, now what does that mean for this church though? Right, right. What does it mean for this church? And so I went to Living Word, I had classes for intercessory prayer, school of ministry, and through my love of understanding ministry, it evolved into now I'm ready to accept the full call to preach. Okay. And so just when we say nobody. Yeah, that's when we were under Apostle Robbie Wilkerson. Okay, and there has been no greater trainer in ministry than that moment. Wow. Like he literally walked me through what being a preacher looked like. It wasn't just getting in the pulpit and being a preacher. He said, You are a minister of the gospel. Yeah, that doesn't mean that you get the mic all the time.

SPEAKER_07 18:57

That is true.

SPEAKER_04 18:58

Because there are gonna be times where you're gonna have to minister to the person on the bus or the crackhead that's on the streets. Yeah. And what does that look like for you? And so he he taught the Bible, he taught us the process, how to baptize, how to marry, how to bury, all the things that came along with this call. Yeah, but the most important thing was he taught us how to live right. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Your first call is right.

SPEAKER_04 19:23

He said, before I allow you to get in this pulpit and stand before these people, have you accepted a call to righteousness? Come on. And that was unheard of. Yeah, had never heard that before. I was like, except the call to what? Though we were living right, right. No one had ever asked or even said it or mentioned it. So that that meant everything to me. Wow. So walked out that process, and like he said, he had this vision when we went to, when we started the worship center after losing mom, I told God I will never preach again. Because I didn't grief. It was grief. I could not fathom the thoughts that he took mama. I said, God, you could have took anybody. I mean, he just wrote some listen. And let me have a truth moment. I gave God a list. I said, He ain't never right. She never

Healing, Training, And Global Exposure

SPEAKER_04 20:33

took I gave him a list. I could not understand why it had to be her time because I said, God, this is me. Like, we go to church, we pay our time. I gave God a condition to say, I can't believe you did this to me because look what I do for you. That's real time right now. And it wasn't out of ignorance. It was out of pain. Yes, yes. It was literally out of pain. So I never, maybe first five years after my mom's transition, I didn't look at it as my mom transitioned to heaven. My language was God took my mama from me. I was angry. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

So talk about support. I was angry. Because I knew she was angry. So I had to really undergird, because at this time, I'm going to Mexico and stuff. Like, you know what I'm saying? Ministry is alright.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

I'm in Mexico, Jesus. And I'm like, preaching?

SPEAKER_04 21:44

But here's the thing. Even in my anger, I love God so much. Yeah. And I kept saying, I think a lot of my grief said, I know it's wrong to be mad at God. This is not how I was raised. This is not what I should do. But I just feel like you took something from me that was important. And again, Sam, it was inevitable. I knew she was leaving. I was like, but God, not right now. I wasn't ready.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Yeah, because she left suddenly.

SPEAKER_04 22:16

Very suddenly.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

See, my mom, at least I got the, you know, the prep. Right. Wasn't no prep with Mama Clara.

SPEAKER_04 22:24

Woke up one day and she was gone. Yeah. She and she passed away at home. We had to go find her.

SPEAKER_07 22:29

Right.

SPEAKER_04 22:30

So it was one of those. And being an only child, I didn't have anybody to lean on. So I'm trying to lean on him. And reality says he just lost his mama twice. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_07 22:43

True.

SPEAKER_04 22:43

So it was, it was so hard. And Pastor probably doesn't even know this, but he saved my life by pushing me to continue to do ministry. I didn't want to. I was like, I don't want to be called preacher at your church. And I literally told him, don't call me pastor, nothing. Wow. I don't want to. I don't want to preach. I don't want to get on the mic. Don't ask me to pray. Like, I just want to sit here. I just want to be here. You better hope I come.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

Because God took something.

SPEAKER_04 23:21

Because God took my mama. And I'm mad.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

So he was so.

SPEAKER_04 23:26

He was strategic because on purpose, he would be like, Pastor Kitch, come here perk this person. Because she just lost her mama, and I know you can identify. And in my mind, you like, really? I got the same thoughts that you said you would have. And you like, if people knew Ryan. I know I just told him. Now, Pastor, I love you. But you found me. But the more he had me minister, the more something just broke.

SPEAKER_05 24:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:03

And what broke wasn't that I didn't grieve her any longer. It was the disdain that I had towards God. Okay. My thought patterns and the way I perceived my mom's death shifted. Okay. So now I no longer say God took my mama. I say my mama transitioned to heaven.

SPEAKER_03 24:25

Amen.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

That's a transfer of trust. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. The ministry, the whole journey has been a trust. You know what I'm saying? A journey of trust and believing God and trusting God. It's just those moments that happen where it's like, what, okay, like what just happened?

SPEAKER_04 24:43

Yeah. Because listen, I was going back to the club. Not to the club? I was like, God, we're not doing this.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

I was past the club.

SPEAKER_04 24:51

I can't believe you. That's what I said. I can't believe you took my mama. I'm finna go give me a drink. That's what I'm gonna go do. Because you vote.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

And I was gonna be like, get the little drink and give my mom and get over this name.

SPEAKER_04 25:06

I was angry.

A Door Opens In Indiana

SPEAKER_04 25:16

Listen, I'm gonna go back, okay?

SPEAKER_05 25:32

He will bring you right back around.

SPEAKER_04 25:37

Sometimes we feel like we need to do certain things. And sometimes we just like, I want to do these things. Because this is where I am right now. I don't really care about nobody else. I don't really care how nobody feels about it. This is where I am. I had similar, I had a similar moment when we lost our child after 16 years of marriage, and I'm like, the what?

unknown 26:03

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 26:04

I had to let God I did. We've done. What is it? Okay, I don't really want to talk to you right now. I don't understand. I'm angry. And and what am I supposed to do with this? Like, it doesn't make any sense. And is it ironic how we run down this list to God as if he doesn't know what we've done? That part. He's like, I'm sovereign. I know. And I've done and I've done more for you than you could ever. Ever. And you got the nerve to give me a condition. Exactly. I know what I'm doing. I got this all planned out.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Man, listen.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

So a thought came to my mind when you were talking. And the fact that, and the reason the thought came to my mind because of your response to the action. Did do you feel that there, even though you love God, but do you feel that there was a battle between who was first in your life? Was it God or was your mom? Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 27:10

That's heavy. So anyone that knows me, my mama was my everything. And I would dare to say that though I had a relationship with God, my relationship with my mama was stronger because she was my voice of God for a long time. She was the voice of God in my life. Okay. For a very long time. So I did not even know how to build relationship with God as it pertained to grief because she wasn't here. Everything that ever, that's good, Sam. Wow. Everything that ever happened in my life, I called her. She was the one that pushed me back to God. I couldn't call her down.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

You got no choice now.

SPEAKER_04 27:57

I have a choice. So now I gotta

Taking A Historic Church

SPEAKER_04 28:00

go to God for myself. And I had to carve out what that looked like for me. It didn't make sense. So now, wow, that's really good. That's a really good question. No, because I never really looked at it like that until he asked it. You had a mediator. She was. She was the voice, she was the she was the voice of God on earth for me. So every time something happened, my immediate response was, let me call my mama. Her first reaction would always be like, It's okay. However, did you pray about it? Here's your scripture. This is what you should read, this is what you should do. So I had a foundation that was built by her for God. It wasn't a relationship that I knew for myself. It was her God that the foundation was built on. I think her death, though I knew God, I was preaching about God. Reality says there was a part of me that I only knew him because of her. You hadn't been intimate with him. I hadn't been intimate with him yet and built a relationship that I have now. Yeah. And I think her death pushed me into that place. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

So it was like almost, even though you had a foundation, but technically you were standing on her foundation on her shoulders. And when he because you said suddenly.

SPEAKER_04 29:32

Suddenly.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

He pulled the rug from underneath you.

SPEAKER_04 29:35

And I'm like, now what do I have to stand on?

SPEAKER_01 29:38

And so that's why I think that when you talk about grief, I don't know how we got back to that. But when you when you're talking about grief and you're talking about supporting your spouse and how do you get through and walk through these journeys of grief and things like that, grief is always deeper than what we think it is. Because there are layers. You know. Um here I am thinking, you know, I lost my mama too. Twice. And so I understand you, but my faith, because I understood preparing me for his will, right? It hit a little different from me. So I'm like accepting the will of God, and she's like rejecting God.

unknown 30:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

And so now here I am, have to keep myself together with my trust and faith, but I gotta support her because she ain't there.

SPEAKER_04 30:33

And so And on top of that, we have children. Dad, listen, I who were who were babies. When his mom passed, TJ, our oldest no, when your mom passed, he was in seventh

Her Call: Intercession To Preaching

SPEAKER_04 30:50

grade.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Was he?

SPEAKER_04 30:51

Yeah, he hadn't graduated for eighth grade yet. He was in the seventh grade, which means he was about 12. Okay. Amari was six. When my mom transitioned, TJ was a junior in high school, and Amari was about 10. So they lost their grandmother twice. Yeah. At very young ages. And you have to help them navigate. So I'm mad at God, but telling them, you gotta trust God.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Crazy. Ain't that crazy?

SPEAKER_04 31:25

Because I knew what to say. Right, right. I knew how to act, I knew how to respond. Because the call on my life was evident. Yeah. I I had been in church my whole life. I can do this with my eyes closed. So I knew what to say to people in order to get them off my back. But living it out is different. But it was completely different when I had to go home without her.

unknown 31:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

And that's life. We don't talk about that. We don't really deal with that. But at the end of the day, when stuff like this hit, if you're not where you need to be, this thing can take you out. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_03 32:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Um the interesting part about that God's will thing is, you know, you never prepare for his will, but at least you have some type of idea.

SPEAKER_03 32:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

And we were there, we were together, and I just thought about this. We're doing grief, and we got two different perspectives.

SPEAKER_07 32:21

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

We have one common denominator, is we both lost our mom.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

But the the perspective of the whole God thing was totally different. I'm leaning towards God because I'm like, I gotta accept your will. I need your strength. I trust you. And she, like, I'm done. I'm like, God. About to be a Muslim.

SPEAKER_04 32:43

I wasn't gonna be nothing. I won't go be no Muslim. I wasn't gonna be nothing.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

She's going back to the club now. I didn't know she was gonna be so mean about it.

SPEAKER_04 32:51

So let me so let can we roll this into. So as as as you originally said God took my mother, but now you say my mother has transitioned. So that space, in that space, you had to find some peace, or as you call it, serenity. I did. So tell us how that space created serenity. My mother was serenity. She was the person who I can come to her, my arm can be falling off. And her response will say, will be, it's okay. And I'm like, it's not okay. You see my arm? Hello. But my entire life, my mother was the epitome of what serenity stood for. And I didn't realize until she was no longer here. Wow. Because her response to everything was, it's okay. Because in her mind, I gotta trust God for a plan. Yeah. But I know it's okay. Yeah. She was speaking those things that were not. And you're talking about a woman who only had a sophomore education. Okay. No high school diploma, no degree, no husband, and raised me off of what she had. You have to trust God to be in that place. I did. Moved from Arkansas to Chicago when she was 19. Oh, wow. Because she wanted another life. But she did it with the little that she had.

SPEAKER_03 34:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:28

All she had was God. Wow. And that was our foundation. Okay. And so the maybe two days before she passed away, our last conversation, my mom passed on that Thursday. I think I said Tuesday earlier, but I actually talked to her that Tuesday. Our last conversation was that Thursday. Okay. And in that conversation, I talked to her about writing a book. I said, I think I want to write a book. Okay. And we had this whole conversation. What do you want to write it about? I had no name. I had nothing. But I've always been a writer my entire life. And so I knew I loved writing. I didn't know what I wanted to write about. But I said, I think I want to do a devotional. Wow. Not realizing that her death was going to cause me to have to write

Righteousness Before The Pulpit

SPEAKER_04 35:20

it so I could get some peace. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

And so the 30 days of uh 30 days to a new start. She went through something every day.

SPEAKER_04 35:31

And I didn't write 30 Days to a New Start for somebody else. Because I was a journaler. Uh-huh. Same. It was me journaling my thoughts. If you open that book, the first page talks about my mother. And I can't believe that I'm here. Because that's how I started the day after she transitioned. Like I cannot believe this is my life. And it's called My Lost Heaven's Game. That's the first page. Okay. Okay. That's the first page of the book. And so serenity was birth because my mother was the woman who she was of peace. And I had to find some peace, but I had to create it. And you you finally leaned in. I did. To what she had taught you that you hadn't quite embraced for yourself. Exactly.

SPEAKER_07 36:22

Amen.

SPEAKER_04 36:23

And now you and now the people are being blessed. They are. You see what I'm saying? All over the country and the world. The world. The world. You see what I'm saying? Because you embraced the journey. Yeah. And I realized I wasn't alone.

SPEAKER_03 36:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:43

Peace wasn't something that I heard people talk about. It was so different. People will ask me, I know serenity means peace, but what is it? Yeah. And I literally had to explain to them like if I didn't find this, I was gonna lose it.

SPEAKER_03 36:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:59

I literally, the vision that he saw was gonna come to pass. I literally was gonna have a nervous breakdown because I didn't know what to do with the grief that I was experiencing.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:07

And though it's not a ministry of grief, it's a ministry of peace. Come on. Okay. Okay. Okay. So as we as we turn the corner to try to round this out, I wanna I have. Do you have a question before I ask this last question that I have? This last question almost wiped his eyes. Tranlight me.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

I mean, I mean I got a couple of my head broom. I'm like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 37:34

I don't, I don't, I don't want to I don't want to stop you. I mean, it's a very loaded question.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

That that question very loaded. If you ask anybody, especially those of us that's supposed to be like men and women of God, that that's a struggle that many people don't want to admit.

SPEAKER_03 37:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Like, you you almost competing. Like between who's really your guy. Who's really your guy? You know what I'm saying? I I went through a similar, it wasn't as in-depth as that. My relationship with my mom was you know, I'm a I'm the mama's boy. Okay, so you know what I'm saying, my mom was dead. You know what I mean? And so um, she was like like my rock. And so I had to not so much deal with the you know who's number one, but dealing with the fact that you've you've transitioned her. Now what? Now what? Because that transition changed my whole perspective of life. You that's one of the reasons why I'm not bothered as much. I mean, I was already away growing up, yeah, but when my mom transitioned, it was like whatever. Y'all can do whatever y'all want. Until you lose, or till your mom transition up out of here. Don't talk to Nick. And she's not none of that stuff y'all talking about bothered. It don't bother me.

SPEAKER_04 39:15

Because we always say, and this sounds real harsh. I can live without my mom, I can live without anybody.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

And so I just was never the guy that got unwrapped. That really put, she put me in that place where my

Wrestling With God Through Grief

SPEAKER_01 39:30

perspective of life and what's valuable.

SPEAKER_03 39:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

It's just certain the reason one of the reasons why I'm not bothered, because I understand that there are certain things that's not valuable. You gotta understand what's valuable. If I can keep these things that's valuable in place, everything else, I'm good. Yeah, whatever goes on, I can get through that.

SPEAKER_03 39:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

You know, and so prior to that was my son being born 13 ounces. That ain't in your notes.

SPEAKER_04 40:06

It's not, but I've heard the story, and my God. So and we didn't even bring that up as one of the challenges that shaped our marriage, because that was the challenge that shaped our marriage.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

It was. And it happened in that same year.

SPEAKER_03 40:21

It did.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

But you go through certain things, man, that just put for me, I just say for me. Certain things just put my life into perspective. Yeah. And like she was saying, you know, you see the goals, you see us grinning and skinning on vacation, but you have no idea. Like, you know, this this whole journey of ours, I don't know if it we make it look good or it's just the grace on our life or the favor. I don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_04 40:49

I think it's all of the above.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

But that it that man, listen, when when this girl slipped into a coma and my baby was born 13 ounces, he wasn't even a pound. I was I was in.

SPEAKER_04 41:02

Now that's perspective. That's how the nurses were holding him.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 41:06

Are you serious? The premium pamphers was this big. And they had to had to cut the top of it and fold it down, and it was still up here on him.

unknown 41:15

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 41:16

They would take, pick him up, and turn him over just like this. And I used to be like, literally fit in your hand.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

But the first, the first, I don't know, 24 hours of him being born, she wasn't even conscious.

SPEAKER_04 41:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

And so he's in an incubator, she's in a coma. I'm in the hallway, done. Like, I don't, I don't know what.

SPEAKER_04 41:36

Right. And the doctors told him that me and Amari both were gonna die that night.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

So it's a good chance saying you could leave her alone. And so how about this?

SPEAKER_04 41:47

We were married 90 days when all this took place. When all this took place. We had just gotten married in March.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

This was June.

SPEAKER_04 41:55

And I was six months pregnant when I when I had him. Go ahead, Sam.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

The importance of covering. Because you had to keep the faith for your whole family. For sure. Because if you lost or gave in to her hatred, the covering would have been off, and then she would have been in the club.

SPEAKER_07 42:16

One percent.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

You remember the episode of Martin when he had one side braid and one side after?

SPEAKER_04 42:24

That would have been her.

SPEAKER_01 42:27

For sure. And I think the only reason that I was able to cover on that level is because of the stuff that I went through without her. Because, again, when Amari was born, she was in the coma. She didn't even know she gave birth. So those first 24, 32, 36 hours. I'm I'm by myself. So I'm coming to, I mean, I had mom. My mama was there. Um, I'm coming to the hospital like coma, incubator. Okay, God, we what we doing? Because this is unbelievable. And so it was at that point where I think the the perspective of life started shifting for me.

SPEAKER_04 43:14

Yeah, I can I can see that because you you said it, you said it about your mom, which I feel like that was a second like shift. It was. But I feel like this was the first shift because you like I have literally decided, made a decision that she was she's my priority. And now we've got these children that are also a priority. And now I'm in danger of losing, you know.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

And but you never lost the main priority. And that was your faith in God. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 43:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

And that's why I had the question because and I'm just like by me. I hope I'm not just there should be no other idols above, before the guys. No other guys before. So the fact that it was sudden. And the way you loved. It's like, so you made your mama God.

SPEAKER_04 44:04

And you know, there's a part of me that always says this had to happen in order

Supporting A Spouse In Pain

SPEAKER_04 44:10

for me to see God right. Not that I saw him wrong, but I saw her first.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

You saw her first and you saw God through her, not through your own lens. From your own perspective.

SPEAKER_04 44:21

But God bless her, because she always kept directing you right back to yourself. 100%. Always. You know, that that's key because a lot of people don't even have that. They call and they like, well, let me tell you what you ought to do. And you like, no, she always said, let me show you. Did you pray? Well, she was saying, you wouldn't you need to go pray.

SPEAKER_05 44:43

I'm like, lady, that's a blessing though. It is. It's a blessing. So you you got anything else for? Because I don't want to. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 44:54

Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask this one last question. So, with all that you all have gone through, all of the great things that have happened, that God, all the favor that God has shown you, all the challenges you have have you all have been able to overcome, all the different, you know, the all the things that have happened over the 23, 22 years, almost 23 years of marriage. What would you say, because we are on the Preston to Purpose podcast, what would you say your purpose is in marriage? Or what have you found your purpose to be? Or what do you believe it to be? Honestly.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

This is this is our purpose for the world. Like our purpose for what we give.

SPEAKER_04 45:42

Yeah, what what you give and just your purpose, your purpose in general, but also your purpose together. Like, why do you believe God brought y'all together? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Like go ahead, woman of God. Can y'all surely been pressed?

SPEAKER_04 45:56

I think one of the main reasons is to help others. We love people. We really do. And so if we can take what God has given us and help to shape the next young couple, letting them know that they can do it. Not like we've done it, but helping them with the tools to navigate this space in marriage. Um I think that's part of our purpose. Because at one point, we were young, we were trying to work, I was in school, we was in ministry, we were doing all of the things with the kids. With the kids. And statistics say we shouldn't be married. Right. Especially because I was never his girlfriend. Let's start there. Let's start there.

SPEAKER_02 46:50

You know, you gotta let the past go.

SPEAKER_04 46:52

You gotta forgive your wife be now. That should have sent me to the club. But no, I really believe that there is a grace on our lives, especially for young marriages. Okay. Because I believe if we can do it and we're here 22 years later, anybody can do it. Yeah. Because we it wasn't easy. It wasn't easy. It took the grace of God, it took the strength of God, it took having faith, it took me having to trust Him. You know, it just took all of these things that we can put in one pot. So I believe that's our purpose for marriage, to be able to galvanize.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

I think that's that's the word that just came to mind. Uh being an example of balance. One of the first things that I've learned, I learned in ministry was you gotta balance this thing out. Yeah like you're more than a pastor.

SPEAKER_03 47:56

Can you can you can you can you say that again?

SPEAKER_01 47:59

You are more than a pastor, preacher, teacher, prophet, whatever you are. Yeah. It's more to that than it's more to you than that. And so one of the first things I I learned in ministry was spend time with your family. Don't be at this church all night and be all day in five services and all that. Be with your family.

SPEAKER_03 48:18

Amen.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

Um when

Parenting Through Loss

SPEAKER_01 48:20

we started ministry, I never forget this. We went to a pastor's church anniversary. He was not there. Okay. And so we in here, and he came late. Like, service was almost over. He came in, he had on like some slacks and a sweater. He was like, Man, thank y'all so much for coming to our anniversary today. I wasn't here because I promised my daughter I was gonna help her with her project.

SPEAKER_07 48:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

That was my priority.

SPEAKER_07 48:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 48:49

The team and the staff, y'all did a great job. Thank y'all so much. Thank God for the speaker. Everybody standing, that's dismissed. And I said, I can't believe that. Because that was unheard of.

SPEAKER_03 49:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

And from that point on, I understood that there has to be a balance. I will not let ministry overtake my life and be, you know, stuffy and you can't have fun.

SPEAKER_04 49:13

Trying to choose.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

I just never wanted to do that. And so when I say I believe God, one of the things that I believe God has put us together for is to be an example of what balance looks like.

unknown 49:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

I can go on a cruise and I can have on my tank top and my shorts and flip-flops, and I can have a great time. Yeah. And I'm still pastor.

SPEAKER_03 49:35

Yeah. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

Because, and I had to explain this to Candace. My morals and principle as pastor is the same as they are as Antoine.

SPEAKER_03 49:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:47

And so don't, you don't have to worry about shifting me. Because she'll call me and be like, I need my brother.

SPEAKER_07 49:54

Not the past.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

I need to talk to my brother. You the brother first. It's the same answer. We'll give you the same answer. I got the same values and principles. What do you mean?

SPEAKER_04 50:07

Maybe brother will do it a little nicer. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

That feels good for her. But I really do. I believe that, and we use this word and we kind of laugh about it, but goals, when people say, they see us all the time and be like, man, y'all, and I want people to know, you know, what we have is it's all God.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Like we're we're living, we are walking fulfillment of prayers.

SPEAKER_04 50:33

And when people say goals, they have to know what's in that. When you say that we're goals, it came with almost losing my life, almost losing the baby, going through grief with our parents. Come on. Losing my dad. Like you know. Yeah. It comes with that. So when you say goals, you gotta know what's wrapped up in that package. You have to know. It's it's I I I love that you that you said that like that, because people like we talked about earlier, they only see the real. Yep. And listen, it's evident that you all to me that you all love one another. When I first heard your story, your origin story, how y'all came together, I was like, what?

SPEAKER_05 51:19

I mean, that's odd, but they love, but you know that they love each other.

SPEAKER_04 51:24

Like this, there has from the time that we met y'all, from the very beginning, I knew that y'all loved each other for real. It wasn't just you know what I'm saying? Like, it ain't just the picture on Sunday. Y'all love each other for real. It's it's evident, but the story helps to understand how you all first made a decision, yeah, but then how your lives have just been weaved together and how your bond has strengthened throughout these years. And I just I just appreciate y'all for coming to share this story because it's it's gonna help some people. It's gonna help some. Absolutely gonna help some people.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

Let me just say that. We do think what you guys are doing is absolutely amazing. And you look good doing it. What?

unknown 52:11

Thank you, sir.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

I'm looking at y'all. I still don't know why I'm in front of the camera. I was fine in the back. You're on camera to make her look better.

SPEAKER_05 52:23

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 52:24

Good. I complimenting y'all.

SPEAKER_05 52:26

And to come through with the hard-hitting questions.

SPEAKER_02 52:29

I can

Finding Serenity And Writing

SPEAKER_02 52:30

answer that from the back.

SPEAKER_01 52:33

But yeah, this is great. I think what you guys are doing is um necessary.

SPEAKER_04 52:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

Necessary. You look amazing, doing it. I'm looking at you, and you like you belong. Remember Martin said, This face belongs on the Tazoo. I'm like, man, they be just killing it, man. She's happy, she got that glow. I love it. I said, You call us anytime.

SPEAKER_05 53:00

Well, thank you. I really appreciate that because it was a struggle to accept this call.

SPEAKER_04 53:07

Cause I just, I'm a very private person. Yeah, and I just, but every, like you, like y'all say, how God just orchestrates things and and it just happens. Every time I try to stay in the background, I end up in the front. And I ugh, I just don't love that. But I'm learning how to embrace what God has because I understand that when I am obedient, I go through the process and the journey, like there are blessings that are attached to you. And it's not about you. It's not. It's really about the people that God is trying to speak to through us having conversations. Absolutely. You know, I'm telling y'all, the people are going to be blessed. I know they are. Because I was blessed just by having this conversation and getting to, getting, like, we know y'all, but we got to know you a little bit better today.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

And we didn't cry.

SPEAKER_04 54:08

Listen, I'm almost about to cry right now, but I'm almost. Hold on.

SPEAKER_05 54:11

Listen. We gonna mess up. We're gonna mess up the makeup today today.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

I was thinking to myself, man, should not have wear the mother glasses because he's busy, you know.

SPEAKER_05 54:25

We made it through.

SPEAKER_02 54:27

I just had a deep question. I just had the next question, you know. Yeah, that question, man.

SPEAKER_04 54:33

Yeah, I gotta go back home and think about that some more. Okay. Well, we're gonna leave it here for now. I just want to say thank you to the Sanders. Thank you to my co-host, uh Samuel Wright. And I just want to say thank you all for watching and for listening to another episode of Pressed into Purpose podcast. Until next time, keep pressing into your purpose.

SPEAKER_05 55:01

Oh, I got to clink, clink, clink, clink, clink. All right. Be blessed. Be blessed.

SPEAKER_04 55:07

On the next episode of Pressed into Purpose.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

And then there was, I have to be honest, you know, there was some a past time we were in high school. And, you know, she she she kind of broke my heart a little bit, you know.

SPEAKER_05 55:19

Oh and so he still hung on to the listen, that that that puppy love will can sometimes take you out. It it leaves some real scars, you know.

SPEAKER_06 55:28

So I didn't, I didn't know that. I thought he was joking, but he was very, very serious. Got it. Very serious.

SPEAKER_02 55:34

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_06 55:34

So I had to take that into consideration.

SPEAKER_02 55:36

So right here. But y'all discussed it, you know.

SPEAKER_06 55:41

We did.

SPEAKER_02 55:42

Remember that time I was at the locker?

SPEAKER_06 55:44

Yeah. You know, that was really a real conversation because I'm like, boy, I was 16. And then to me, it didn't hold as much weight as it did for him. So now as an adult, I'm looking like man, that really did impact him and how he maneuvered in other spaces in his life. And so I had to bite the building on that one.

SPEAKER_04 56:09

See you next time.