Breaking the Cycle: From IFB Fundamentalism to Healing & Deconstruction: Jenny Smith Pt 2

In this moving in-person episode of the Unholier Podcast, guest host David Keck continues the conversation with Jenny Smith. In Part 2, Jenny explores the complex intersection of family life and the Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) church, reflecting on how the rigid expectations of the ministry influenced her father’s approach to parenting.

Jenny shares deeply personal memories, including the painful moments where church doctrine took precedence over protection. From being held accountable for things beyond her control to discovering how her father managed her early relationships behind the scenes, she illustrates the intense pressure fundamentalism places on the family unit.

In this episode, we cover:

• Faith & Fatherhood: How church culture and IFB doctrine influenced her upbringing.
• Control and Misogyny: The impact of labels like "Jezebel" and the weight of purity culture.
• The Cycle of Abuse: Connecting a fear-based upbringing to the realities of her first marriage.
• Choosing Freedom: The harrowing journey of leaving with her baby and navigating the aftermath of domestic violence.
• Healing & Parenting: How deconstruction has allowed Jenny to break generational cycles and find a new perspective on God.

Jenny’s story is a powerful look at the struggle to reclaim one's identity while navigating the shadows of a high-control religious environment.

Subscribe to the Unholier Podcast for more stories of resilience, deconstruction, and finding hope after trauma.

#UNHolierPodcast #ReligiousTrauma #IFB #Fundie #Deconstruction #SpiritualAbuse #DomesticViolence #NarcissisticAbuse #Exvangelical #PurityCulture #ArrangedMarriage #ChurchHurt #TraumaRecovery #SurvivingISH #JennySmith

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:03

Welcome back to the Unholier Podcast. This episode might make some people uncomfortable, and it should. I'm finally doing part two of my story. If you caught part one of my story, where I talk about my experience growing up in the independent Fundamental Baptist Church as a pastor's daughter, and then having to go through an arranged marriage and endure a terribly unhealthy abusive marriage. I am finally talking about what it was like navigating the divorce process and the years to come in the co-parenting with this individual. I first address in this particular episode the comments and remarks that came from my part one regarding my dad. This is my story. This is my lived experience, my perspective. I was speaking my truth in that episode, and I dive even further into that in this episode. I want to dedicate this episode to my mom and my brother. Because for years it felt like the three of us were stranded on an island trying to survive something that we didn't choose. We carried it together, and this conversation is part of putting it down. If you've ever felt abandoned in a place that told you was love, you're gonna feel this one. So let's get started.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Jimmy, I'm excited. This is our first in-person um recording together. And we did episode one for Unholier, which was supposed to be on my podcast platform, but we ended up using that for to introduce Unholier. And it's the most speed show. And we've been getting a lot of feedback in the past year. And so we have been talking about doing a part two, and we decided to wait and do it. We were in person. So I'm really excited about that.

SPEAKER_04 2:25

I know.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Now I want to let you know that if we need to take a break, we've got a glass of wine with us because you're gonna talk about some heavy stuff and very personal stuff.

SPEAKER_04 2:39

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

And so um feel free to stop me. Feel free to take a drink. And but I'm gonna start out with the number one question. And I haven't um told you about this question because I I just wanted to I wanted to gatekeep and save it. The number one question that I have gotten about your show is who truly is your best friend?

SPEAKER_05 3:05

See, there are categories, David. So I'm just gonna say it right here, right now. And I have said this before, but you are truly my best gay friend ever. Perfect. I'll take it.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

And I also do the editing so I can make that into however I want. Um, I do want to also let the listeners and viewers know that because of the great questions that we were getting, I'm gonna have to refer to my phone a lot because I want to make sure I'm asking the questions and ask them the right way. So I promise I'm not ordering pizza, I'm not texting door dashing. Um, but I just because of the really good questions that we got.

SPEAKER_04 3:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

And so I want to start out with this one is I had asked you if your dad was a good dad, if you put that in like what category do you put him in? And even as a pastor, was he a good pastor? And and what differences did you see between him as a father and him as a pastor? And if I remember correctly, because it's been over a year, if I remember correctly, you didn't know how to answer that question. So, how do you feel about it now?

SPEAKER_05 4:14

I thought a lot about the question since you've asked it. I did a lot of reflecting. I also got a lot of feedback, and the main concern or criticism, quite honestly, from some people, was that on my first episode, my part one, they did not like how I talked about my dad. They thought I was disrespectful. They also commented the fact that he is deceased, so you shouldn't be talking disparagingly about him. That really kind of took me back because I was like, first of all, all I'm doing is telling the truth, the facts. I wasn't being emotional about what happened. I I could have been, but I was telling exactly what happened in chronological order and how it affected me into my adult life, what he did and didn't do in my younger years, and in how he didn't defend me, my brother, my mother, that the church was his number one priority over our family. Those are facts. What I want y'all to understand is do I think he was a good pastor? Yes, I do. I think he was a good pastor in the sense that the parishioners really did love him. They genuinely, absolutely loved him. He was humorous and he was warm and he was kind and he'd give you the shirt off his back, right? So, as far as a pastor, he was great in that sense. He wasn't a dictator. I've said this before. I would not consider him the quote unquote cult leader. However, he allowed those types of people to have leadership positions in the church.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

The enabling is also, in my opinion, just as guilty.

SPEAKER_05 6:20

Yeah, like you're guilty by association, right? You're allowing those kinds of people and that kind of those kinds of ideologies into your congregation and not just into the congregation, but into leadership positions. So it affected us. It affected me and my brother deeply and my mother. And but like I said, you know, my dad was different than your typical IFP pastor because he did allow my mom to work and have a career outside of the church walls, which is virtually unheard of in that world. Like you're a pastor's wife. If you're going to have a job at all, it's going to be the church secretary. Like you are not having any other job than a church secretary. And really, that's a lot of times frowned upon because the pastor's wife is just supposed to be like tending to her husband, the pastor, and tending to the flock, as they say, the parishioners, and tending to her children and being a homemaker, and like I said before, making freaking crocheted blankets for the baby showers. You know what I'm saying? Like stuff like that. That is like your typical IFB pastor's wife, organizing the potlucks, you know, things like that. My mom wasn't that person, but she also did all the things too. She was the pianist, she was the organist, she was the sign language interpreter, she she did all of the things, in addition to she was a boss babe. Like she had a career and she did her thing. So a lot of people had a problem with that, but she was a great example for me, you know, growing up. My mom and dad had a what I would have considered a good relationship. My dad was never abusive to my mom that I know of. I never saw him like call her names, never saw him be physically or verbally abusive or mentally abusive to her. They had a pretty like agreeable relationship where they did talk things through and they worked things out. I saw that. And they were also affectionate with one another. So, as far as like that's idealistic in a home when a child is growing up, to see your parents have a very good civil relationship where they're able to talk things through and be affectionate with one another. So, all of those were really good examples for me growing up. I would say not only was my dad married to the church, but he also, like I said, he's he defended the people in the church and didn't defend us. So that hurt very deeply, as I said before. I would say another aspect of it was, you know, I do think he was a good pastor, but the people that had a problem with what I said with about him in my first episode was the people who saw him only as a pastor. They didn't live in the home, they didn't see the dynamics. And I just gave you the picture. The picture wasn't bad, the picture was good. And in all intents and purposes, like most people be like, Well, that's good. She didn't live in an abusive home, she didn't live, you know, her parents got along, you know, all those things. Like, I'm super grateful for that. However, there were times in my childhood where I would consider him not great. Yeah. I just brought this up to my college best friend, Branda, who I've spoken about before. She was just visiting last week. And I've only ever talked about this with family members. And I want to say this particular story that I'm about to tell, our entire family was there. Like my dad, my uncles, my aunts, my cousins, everybody was witness to this. When I was about seven or eight years old, we would do these family birthdays every month because the family was so big, we would have a get together every month to celebrate because there was always at least two people in the family having a birthday every month.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_05 10:36

So we would get together and we would have family birthdays. And so we were at my aunt uncle's house, and one of my cousins was, I would say, probably about two. She hadn't been walking for very long, but they had very tall staircases. And me and another girl cousin of mine were upstairs with her, and she wanted to go down the stairs. And the stairs are very steep. So her and I kind of took both one of her hands and I took the other hand. And we were trying to get her go down the stairs very carefully, helping her down the stairs. Well, as toddlers often do, like they're stubborn, they're like, I'm gonna do this myself, type of thing. She wiggled out of her hands and literally fell down the stairs from the top stair, all the way down. And there was probably at least 12 stairs. She went all the way down the stairs. We'll hear everyone comes running around the corner because they hear a toddler screaming her head off. And me and my other cousin, who was similar to my age, we were standing at the top of the stairs, just like in shock at what had just happened. All the adults come rushing around the corner, and my brother and my other male cousin came out of the bedroom where they were playing. And instantly it was the adults questioning us older kids. What happened? Who's responsible? And everyone blamed me.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 12:03

My brother was the first to blame me because he is my brother, my older brother. There's that sibling rivalry, right? Like where it's like, oh, Jenny did it. Jenny, I saw Jenny push her down the stairs. Well, he wasn't even in the room. Like he wasn't even, he was in a bedroom and came out and saw the commotion, and it was instant blame to me.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

And not to interrupt your story, but where but what I'm finding very interesting and what I'm hearing is, you know, you said the uh uh sibling rivalry. But I know that for myself, if it came to something like that, my brother's the first to defend me.

SPEAKER_04 12:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Um now if it came to petty shit, of course, my brother would be like, oh, it's probably David. Yeah. But when it comes to something like that, all the rivalry was set aside and my brother became a protector. Yeah. So I find that interesting that uh, because as soon as you said that, I was like, I've never, I mean, I've never experienced that kind of my brother does this kind of thing. And the fact that you were it just said it as if it was normal, yeah. When I don't think that is.

SPEAKER_05 13:09

That is something that I've struggled with too. Like my brother and I have gone through a little bit of uh evolution with our relationship over the years. I think that he feels like he was blamed for a lot in our childhood. Um, and I see it even with my own kids too. Like I didn't do it, they did it. And then sometimes we take the other one's side and say, Well, that's not in their nature to do that. It's in your nature to do that because you have a history of lying or, you know, not sharing or whatever. And so he would get blamed for things that maybe he thought I did or that I should have gotten the blame for. And I think there was a little bit of that animosity. We're we're good now. I mean, obviously we're adults and we're we're close now, but we did go through some rough patches in our upbringing. I do have a point to this story because we're talking about there were times where my dad was a terrible dad. And I know this is gonna come to a shock to a lot of people because he did seem so mild-mannered and fun and gentle and sweet and kind and loving. And he was all of those things, but this is a side I'd never seen of him before. So I again we're at the top of the stairs, everyone's blaming me, the adults are demanding answers, and my dad, in a moment of rage, grabbed me and took me into the bathroom, shut the door, pulled my pants down to my bare butt, took his belt off, and literally whipped me. My brother and my other boy cousin stood outside the bathroom and counted. And my brother said I got whipped over 30 times. It was this fit of rage. I don't even know like where it came from, why he did it. Like, I get there's a lot of commotion. Like a kid just fell down the stairs, but like, why am I getting all of that put on me in that moment? Yeah. He literally beat me. There's no other way around it. This isn't like Proverbs says, like, oh, spare the rod, spoil the child. Like, no, this is a totally different level. This isn't a let me spank you three or four times because you did something bad. I legitimately did nothing, got the blame for it, and legitimately got beat. I had wealth on my butt.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Guilty before proven innocent or power.

SPEAKER_05 15:41

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

So you're okay. I I do want to remind the listeners because this is not an attack on your family. Your your father's no longer with us, but you all had a lovely relationship. We we did. Yeah, and like you said, you and your brother. So this is not an attack on your family. Episode one does explain that. Um so so I just want to remind people of that. This is not us like shaming or or hating on your family because there's been some healing in conversation with that, which you know we'll we'll probably talk about, but just as a reminder, had your dad whipped you before, or was that the first time he had ever whipped you?

SPEAKER_05 16:17

Not like that.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

But not like that.

SPEAKER_05 16:19

No.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Had you been whipped before with a belt?

SPEAKER_05 16:22

No. Uh, they had a paddle, um, and they would spank us with the paddle, but it was only like it was generally not bare butt.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

And in those times, I mean, I had been for the belt, you know, or a switch, like go pick your own switch kind of thing. But it was all in moderation and it was discipline and not considered beating, like like some people consider any kind of belt or foreign object being used to punish a child as abuse now. I think there's a fine line with that, but I come from a time where I would have to pick my own switch.

SPEAKER_04 16:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

You know, but um, but I think that when you use the word beating, it was legit. 30 slashes is extreme.

SPEAKER_05 17:04

It is, yeah. And it was. To this day, my family has not talked about it. None of my aunts, none of my uncles, nobody has ever acknowledged it. They were all there. I did bring it up later on in my life. I would say maybe like eight or nine years ago, I brought it up. Like, hey, remember that one time I got blamed for pushing so-and-so down the stairs, and I never did it. And then dad beat me 30 plus times, and my mom said, Yeah, that was really upsetting, and dad felt bad about it. And it's like it was never ex no one ever talked about it. It was like we're just gonna like brush that under the rug and not discuss what happened. Well, and let me ask you. And that was all that was said. Like, there wasn't, it wasn't like, let's talk about this further, let's unpack this, let's describe what maybe he was going through at that moment. Because as a kid, maybe he was going through something at the church, some big thing. Maybe, you know, there was some adult thing going on.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Doesn't justify it, but in your adult life, you can maybe have a in all of that.

SPEAKER_05 18:20

But like as a kid, there was no explanation. And even as an adult, there was no explanation given.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Like, maybe I would have not understood where he came from, but um I would maybe understand he was under extra pressure or extra stress at the time where you can help triggered him uh resentment that maybe you still have for that situation, regardless of um how you feel about him now. There's still gonna be those sore spots, right? Yeah. So did they ever say, you know what, we don't believe that you uh push your cousin or whoever no one's ever acknowledged to that at all. So for all you know, they could be out telling the story of, well, you know, when you were little, your cousin Jenny, and that's absolutely not the truth.

SPEAKER_05 19:06

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. No one's ever acknowledged it, it's never been, you know, discussed or talked about. Yeah. Like I said, we had monthly family birthdays. Never once was there an incident that came close to that that would stick in anybody in my family's memory. Yeah. That is a core memory. So for me, it's like I think about my dad, I think about all of these moments throughout my life. That moment, I think about the time that I talked about on my part one where I'm at camp and I was morbidly like humiliated on stage and he sat in the front row and laughed. I think of that moment. I think of moments where I was legitimately called a for for wearing pants by my youth director's son, and I was never defended by my dad. Like, I think of moments like that.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:04

I think of the moment, the round table discussion where my dad was like, You're not gonna marry that boy over the King James Bible.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

With your fiance, family. Yeah. I think of that moment.

SPEAKER_05 20:15

I think of the moment where, and I don't think I brought this up in my part one. So I was the church pianist at the time after I got married. And there was a music seminar that a church in Indiana was gonna be giving to a lot of the Midwest church's musicians in their church, you know, they would have all these experts coming from Bob Jones University. And it's a for in its realm, it's very prestigious. Like I will just say, like, there's a lot of talent that comes from that university, especially musically. And so they had these guys, like and if you're listening to this, you're from the IFB, you're gonna know Ron Hamilton, Frank Garlock, you're gonna know those names. Those guys were coming to this church to do a music seminar. So whether you had you were a pianist, you were somebody who who played in an orchestra at your church, you were you were a singer, you were in the choir, you could come to this music seminar and you could get training by these really amazing people. And so my dad's church sent me because they thought, well, this would maybe be a great opportunity for her to learn a little bit like hone her crafts with the piano, because I was the pianist for the congregational singing. So I went and it turns out that my bestie from college, Branda, also was the pianist in her little church in Pennsylvania, and her church sent her. We went together.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

And that's how y'all met?

SPEAKER_05 21:50

No, no. We met at college.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Oh, yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_05 21:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we end up at this seminar together. There's a point to this. This is Five years after I had to break up with my college sweetheart. So we are in Indiana. We are walking into the church building. We're walking through the parking lot and I hear my name called. Jen. Jen Barlett. Screaming through the parking lot. I look and it is his parents.

SPEAKER_03 22:23

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_05 22:24

All these years I thought they hated me. And I'm like, oh my gosh, why are they here? They're not musicians. Like, they don't play an instrument. Like, why are they even here? I knew it was at his church, but like I knew he was gone. But like I never expect to see his parents because it was a music seminar. It wasn't like a church service.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

Right.

SPEAKER_05 22:43

So I didn't expect to see them. They were there. I don't know why, but they were. And they came up to me and Branda and were like, oh my gosh, it's so good to see you hugging us. Where are you guys staying? We're like, we're staying at such and such hotel. How long are you going to be here? We're be here for the rest of the weekend for this music seminar. Oh my gosh, well, cancel the rest of your night and stay at our house. Now, mind you, the last time I stayed at their house, I was dating their son.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Right.

SPEAKER_05 23:11

Five years prior. Now I'm in an abusive marriage trying to figure out how the hell I'm getting out of this. I have a four-month-old baby at the time. So it's like, okay, like I'm in this terrible situation, but I'm going to this music seminar, getting away for a few days, and I run into my college sweetheart's parents. To summarize what happened, we ended up canceling the rest of our nights at the hotel. I don't think I ever told you this.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

No, this is all brand new information to me.

SPEAKER_05 23:41

So this has to do with my dad. So again, I'm saying these are core moments where you ask me, was your dad a good dad?

SPEAKER_01 23:49

And I feel like that's gonna be the question like that by the end of the conversation we might get an answer to. Like that's what we're discussing, right? Like I I'm enjoying this.

SPEAKER_05 23:58

Yes. So we end up going to their house, staying for two nights at their house. The really crazy part is Brenda and I are sleeping in my ex-boyfriend's bedroom. Oh wow. And they had a picture of him and his new wife on the nightstand. Oh, what happened? Next to the bed, which was really mind-blowing. Yeah. So that night we had a discussion with them. They wanted us to come down and we sat around the dining table and we talked, and they were basically like, What happened? And I'm like, what do you mean what happened? Like they wanted uh what happened after the trip.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:42

Like what ended up happening? Like, why did you break up with him? Like what what you know, what became of everything? Because they apparently had unanswered questions all these years. I thought it was quite clear. I thought that the discussion happened, they both had an argument. I didn't think his dad and mom liked me because of all this stuff. And we left and I never talked to them again. So it was like, okay, why are you asking me this question? What happened? So we're piecing everything together. And they're like, we actually tried to come up to Detroit and meet with your parents to work things out for this.

SPEAKER_03 25:25

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_05 25:26

And I was like, wait a minute. You did? And I and they said, Yeah, we called your dad and we said, My son is devastated. Let's work something out. Can we drive up to Detroit? Because they're from Indiana, like I said. Can we drive up to Detroit and meet with you and your wife and discuss this? Like how we can get through this, because like they want to be together. And my dad was like, Nope, she's moved on, we're all set. Click. I find this out five years later. Now I'm in an abusive marriage with a person I didn't want to be married to, and I'm hearing this, and I'm thinking, do I even know who my dad is? Like, I've had these paradigm shifts over the years where it's like, do I take moments that I've just described to you and make that the measure of the man? Or were the good moments outweighing the bad moments?

SPEAKER_03 26:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:29

Or are the bad moments so bad that they negate the good ones? It's a hard question to answer. So when you go through those core memories and you think like this changed the entire trajectory of my life because of decisions he made for me.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Yeah, the dictatorship of your life.

SPEAKER_05 26:54

And he wasn't a dictator to his parishioners. I mean, when you say it like that, I feel like I was the one being dictated over.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

So you had mentioned, um, and if you're not finished with the story, I'm not trying to share it. I am finished with the story. Wow. Yeah, you've never shared that with me. No. So so thank you for that. But you had mentioned when you were talking about, I think I said slashes, but I think I meant lashings with the belt.

SPEAKER_03 27:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

But you had mentioned that you don't think that he had ever done anything to your mom and that was abusive and what you seen was loving and respectful and they talked things out. Do you think with the relationship that you have with your mom now? Because she, you know, you all have a very close relationship, do you think that she would ever be honest with you if anything like that did happen? Or or or are you fully confident that it didn't happen?

SPEAKER_05 27:48

I do think that she would tell me if something ever did happen. I have about your mother, but I feel like she and I are so close. And honestly, since my dad has passed, like she's remarried to an amazing man. They have a completely different relationship than her and my dad had, which has been beautiful to watch. Again, not that their relationship was bad, it's just my dad was married to the church.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:16

And so I think that he wasn't necessarily present or even aware of what his family needed.

unknown 28:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:29

You know, it's kind of like, how do you define bad dad? It's gonna be different for everyone because somebody could be listening and say, my dad was an alcoholic, my dad was this, my dad was a drug, you know, whatever. And they could say, well, in those terms, you had a great dad, you should not complain about that. You know what I'm saying? Like, so I think it's just gonna depend on people, people's own like experiences and perspectives.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

But um And that's what I'm so adamant about about how we can't compare, you know, we can't compare traumas, we can't compare relationships. Some people may have had their father do some of the same same things that your dad did, and they have chosen to take him um out of their lives. That's their right, that's their decision. Yeah. And so I I think that, you know, we always say we can't compare trauma. And and I think this is off the record, you and I were talking about the right adjective to use, you know, and sometimes we have, you know, lack of the right word. And when we say he was bad, is it a lifetime of bad? Or or was he a good man that did bad things? You know, and so like when you have to when you sit and like really process that and think about that, I think is when you get those moments, those patches that you're talking about now, yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_04 29:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

And and sometimes we do maybe not talk about the good things that happen because those are easily processed, those are lovely memories, you know. And then it's like, why couldn't you be like this all the time? I know you can.

SPEAKER_05 30:02

Yeah, you know, and I think that like I have to give a little bit of grace to him because he did come from a divorced home. He was really raised by his grandfather, who, again, we've I've talked about before, he was one of the founders of the IFB. So he was a pastor of one of the very first megachurches in the United States, and he was fully entrenched in the ministry. So my dad was around at 24/7 growing up. That was his life. So he felt like I feel close to my family when I'm in these moments of ministry. And it that was not the same for us. Yeah. For him, I think in his mind, he wanted to continue that and and continue that legacy with me because my brother wasn't gonna go into the ministry. He knew that I wanted to go into the ministry. I wanted to either be like a pastor's wife or a youth pastor's wife, and so he looked at me as the one that's gonna continue to carry the torch for the family. And so he had to have me with somebody who was going to fall in line with those ideologies, King James only, IFB, you know, though that kind of a family. So that's why my college sweetheart didn't fit into that category. He was going to go into full-time ministry. Yes, he was in seminary, he was studying all of those things. But when it came down to my dad's core belief, which again, he would die on this hill, that the King James Bible is the only Bible, that's where the discrepancy was. And he was not gonna allow me to marry somebody who didn't believe that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Um and I think that I think that's what where I personally struggle is I'm okay if your dad thinks that and wants to die on the hill of the King James Bible. I don't think that means I have to think that. And I think that's where a lot of what, especially with Christianity, is is where people get turned off with it, is because when you talk about propaganda and shoving things down people's throat, like I jokingly say, you've never seen a gay guy knock on someone's door and say, Hey, can I convert you to being gay?

SPEAKER_04 32:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

You know, like you do with I leave my car, you know, in Walmart and I walk outside and there's a brochure inviting me to the church. And or if they see me in person, it's well, this, that, and the other. They would, if I say I'm atheist, Lord have mercy, you know, you're gonna get a hold of it. Yeah. And so I want your dad to die on his hill. I just don't want him to think that I need to climb that hill and die with him. Yeah, you know what I mean? And and not just your dad, but just anyone in it with religion. And I think that's where it gets dangerous and turns a lot of people off.

SPEAKER_05 32:53

Yeah, for sure. When he was on his deathbed, he was passing away, he had dementia. We had made a Facebook post inviting people who knew him throughout his life, friends, relatives, parishioners from the church that wanted to come and say their final goodbyes. And there were so many people that came to their house and were there and saying words to him and praying over him and singing and all of those things. And so that was kind of um uh it was a very surreal experience because there were a few of the preacher boys that came. And when I say preacher boys, I mean these are guys that grew up in the youth group that went through the youth group in my dad's church and then ultimately became pastors or missionaries that were was under my dad's church in while he was the pastor, and so a few of them came to give their last words, pray over him, tell him, you know, whatever. And I was in the room for a couple of them, and he had grabbed one of their hands and looked up to them and said, Thank you. That means thank you for sticking to the King James Bible, to not straying from the things that I taught you. Thank you for carrying on the legacy, carrying the torch, what have you. And I reflected on that after I went through the grieving process because at the time you're kind of numb. Like you're not, you're not getting much sleep. You're up all hours of the night, you know, giving him the medication and hospices there. And, you know, you're you're changing the diaper, you're you're turning the body, you're doing all of these things. So you're kind of out of it. Yeah. But that was another core memory. And I thought to myself, him and I had a couple of conversations before he passed when he was on his deathbed. And never one time did he thank me or thank my brother or thank my mom. We were the ones that went through all the crap. We had the death threats on our family. We had the people showing up delusional at two o'clock in the morning. We had our family vacations disrupted because there was a crisis in the church that we had to leave and go home for. We had all of those things. My mom having to abruptly move from a state and move to another state to take another church and leave her career, her successful job, and and start over and all of these sacrifices that we made as a family. And not one time did he thank us. That's a hard pillow to swallow. Yeah. I don't think he thinks we need to be thanked.

unknown 36:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

That's kind of what I was wondering because it's like when I've been staying with you all for a few days. You cook every meal, you do a lot of, you know, your kids have their choice. Like I was, like I saw uh your son's bed today, and I was like, oh my gosh, he's better than like his military making, you know. I was like, I wondered if you win, did it? And he was like, No, I'm it's it's me. Yeah, you know, so so they they do have their place in the house and things that they do. But you know, you make your meals and you make these things and you do these amazing mother things. And of course we want to hear thank you for that. But I wonder if it's one of those things where like the way that they thank you is not by saying it, but like loading the dishwasher or making the bed when they're supposed to. Like, is that a way of saying thank you? Because when I look back on it, I remember times that I've told my parents thank you, but which granted I have both my parents with me, you know. Um I I don't know what my reaction would be if if I was in your shoes. But I almost wonder if there was other ways of thanking you without saying thank you. You know, like I saw um one of your kids just naturally took the trash out when it was full. Is that a way of saying thank you because you just cooked breakfast for us? Like, is that a way of saying thank you?

SPEAKER_05 37:32

And so could what I'm probably rambling because I don't really know how to ask this question, but you're saying was he trying to, was he showing you thank you that he was thankful for the family in his own way, but not saying it without saying the I guess that because I you I've had an episode with my husband where we've talked about the love languages and different people express their love and appreciation in different ways. Like my first number one love language is acts of service. So taking out the trash, making your bed, putting your things away. That is, I love you, thank you for what you did. I just made a dinner, you're gonna clean up after it. I appreciate that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

But when you were saying that, I was like thinking in my head, was my dad ever thanking me in a way that like that, like for example, no, yeah, no, yeah, and and and I want to make it clear that this was not me trying to negate anything that that you're even if you had the moment of, yeah, there was a couple of times, it still is not negating how you truly felt. Because if I saw my dad giving someone something that I desperately needed from him, and on his deathbed someone got that, and I didn't, even if I found ways to have closure with that, it would still be a pain point. Yeah, I'm not trying to minimize or negate it by any means.

SPEAKER_05 38:57

Because even like words of affirmation, that's not one of my primary or secondary love languages. So, but it still stung. Yeah. Because I was like, why is he telling that guy thank you? What the hell did he do? He hasn't done anything, he's rambling on every Sunday and screaming at everyone, just like the guys that were in the youth department and gave me so much freaking religious trauma. Like, why is he thanking this guy? Because he has a King James only IFB church, and he's like faithful to that. That's the thank you, you know. In that moment, I was like, wow, okay, all right. It just again showed me where I ranked.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

I want to you said something that has punched me in the gut, and you've given a couple of examples just throughout what you've told us so far, but you said your father never defended you all. You've made a couple of uh, you know, you shared a couple of things given what I would maybe classify as what you're meaning, but I would like to take a minute and really dive into that because I want to know exactly what you mean by that, because that's a very powerful state.

SPEAKER_04 40:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

Like when you say that phrase of my dad never defended, when you're saying that, what's flashing through your mind?

SPEAKER_05 40:21

Oh, well, the incident with my cousin, things at church where maybe like the youth director was like the youth director's son calling me a whore for wearing pants on a family vacation, and my dad never saying he would never cuss. But like, if it was my husband and somebody said that about one of our daughters, he would be like, You effing say that again about my daughter, I'll wring your neck. Like he's gonna put the fear of God into that kid. Right. My dad never did that, he never did that, he never talked to the boy, he never talked to the dad about it. It was like they don't do just whatever, you know, it's like always like brush it off. You don't wanna cause more problems by making a big deal out of it, type of thing. And that's hard for me. Yeah. Because now that I'm a parent, somebody says something about my kid, you best believe you're gonna get an earful.

unknown 41:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:21

And if you if you get past me, then you gotta deal with Smitty. Like, he is definitely not gonna put up with that. Yeah, say something about one of the kids, you might get shoved against a wall. You know what I'm saying? Like it's gonna be even further than when I'm gonna take it.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:35

And my dad never did that. And I feel like that is like the nor like that's that should be like a normal reaction as a parent. You want to protect your children.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

Yeah, it was the thing. You could do it without even thinking about it. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_05 41:46

Okay, so like here's another example. My mom, now, this again, this was in the late 80s, early 90s. Short haircuts on women was like really popular. We talked about Reba. And I'm like, yeah, Reba, my mom had that same exact hairstyle in this Reba video that we watched. She got her hair cut really short. And on Sundays, they'd often stand in the vestibule and shake everyone's hands as they would go out to greet them. And this one Sunday, they were lined up shaking hands with the parishioners as they were going out. And this one in particular man said to my mom in front of my dad, Well, if I was your husband, I would never let you cut your hair that short. And my dad just laughed. He didn't defend my mom in that moment. Yeah. And my mom had to stick up for herself and say, Well, it's a good thing you are not my husband.

unknown 42:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:43

I mean, that's that we've always had to defend ourselves because he would always take it as I don't want to cause more of an issue by saying something and then the person coming back. You know what I'm saying? Like continuing this, whatever it is that's trying to be started.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

I don't want it to adverse and like I'm trying to negate anything. Um, I just try to look at things from a different perspective, knowing that your perspective is absolutely the truth. But I've heard stories where women were not allowed to stand up for themselves, where children definitely, especially a girl child, cannot stand up for themselves. And do I think that your father should have immediately said, don't talk to my about my daughter like that? My wife can cut her hair if she wants. I'm not her boss.

SPEAKER_04 43:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Have a blessed Sunday, whatever. Absolutely. I think that should be said. Yeah. But I do think that with some of the stories that I've heard, is women would not be allowed to even address that to the man that just said that to them and defend themselves. Um, but you all were allowed to. You were allowed to.

SPEAKER_04 43:52

My mom was she was not one to one hundred be put into that box.

SPEAKER_01 43:57

Right. And so so I guess my question is. There a world where he felt like he didn't have to defend you all because he let you all have the freedom to do it yourself. Now, with that being said, he still should have done it as well as you should have also defended yourself, right? Like both should have attacked the situation.

SPEAKER_05 44:14

He probably would say yes. Yeah. Just in his defense, he probably would be like, Yeah, you know, they're they're they can defend themselves. But laughing at it is he did that as a nervous reaction.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 44:26

He would often do that. He would throw humor into a situation that was uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 44:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:31

Just to sort of lighten the mood, soften the blow. That was his defense mechanism, the protective thing. That was like his MO.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

Yeah. So I guess what I want to say is, in my opinion, as I'm learning, because a lot of the stuff is new to me, right? I'm learning this in real time with you.

SPEAKER_04 44:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Um, is that I hate that he did not defend you all. I hate that I wish he would have.

SPEAKER_04 44:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

But I do love the fact that you all were able to defend yourself.

SPEAKER_04 44:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

So so many things can be true at the same time. Yeah. Right. Like I'm so glad that that option wasn't taken off of I'm not going to defend you and you're not going to defend yourself.

SPEAKER_05 45:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

But I do wish he would have.

SPEAKER_05 45:10

Well, and I think that my mom and I, just being women in the IFB, we were looked at as like we have an edge to us because we were speaking for ourselves. We were able to stand up for ourselves. And the men in the IFB do not like that at all. So I know for a fact I was labeled as a Jezebel. I was told it multiple times. In fact, my ex-father-in-law used to sign my birthday cards and Christmas cards to Jezebel. He used to say he used to call me Jezebel straight up because I was more outspoken than like the majority of the women and girls in the IFB.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

How do they justify that as godly?

SPEAKER_05 45:51

The men don't need an excuse to justify anything. There it is.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

That's what I thought you were going to say. They don't.

SPEAKER_05 45:57

They just, it's just they can do what they want, and there's really no there's no questioning that they have to undergo, no accountability that they have to endure. It's all on the women for wearing blue jeans. I think it's period. Yeah. Um, and what I mean by that blue jeans is like taking in another step. Right. It's next level. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

But what I mean by that is it's not like you're wearing short shorts or a snippy dress.

SPEAKER_04 46:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Even if you were, that does not give them the right.

SPEAKER_04 46:28

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

But I'm saying you were still fully covered.

SPEAKER_04 46:30

Yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:31

But because they were, it was not a a dress.

SPEAKER_05 46:36

It wasn't it wasn't approved. A whore. Yeah, correct. And this is the thing that's so stupid is that they classified pants as men's apparel because in the Bible it says women need to be adorned in women's apparel, and men are to be adorned in men's apparel. Einstein, the Bible was written 2,000 years ago. They didn't have blue jeans, you know, slacks, whatever you want to call them, britches, depending on where you're you're from. They didn't have those, they all were tunics.

SPEAKER_01 47:10

Well, what I think is so funny, and granted, this isn't biblical, but like wigs were designed for judges.

SPEAKER_05 47:18

Yeah, and they were very feminine looking.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

High hills were designed for uh rich men.

SPEAKER_03 47:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Because they so they can tower over you to show their dominance. And and so like I wonder how the Christians would have oh they love justified.

SPEAKER_05 47:37

They love George Washington with his little powdered wig and his little bow in his hair. That's okay, that's okay. Because again, a man is doing it, it's okay if a man does it, unless the man is gay. Correct.

SPEAKER_01 47:53

So it's masculine if the right type of side. And it's the man that they approve of doing.

SPEAKER_04 48:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Yeah, I don't like it.

SPEAKER_04 48:02

I know. I don't either.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

I would not be good in this world. I was not good in this religion.

SPEAKER_05 48:06

No, you would not be good in this religion. No. I'm trying to remember like where we left off on my part one as far as like my story. We got we we definitely dove into in this episode just a lot about my dad. And I think that was an important aspect of it because he had a hand in in changing the path of my life, obviously. And for people who haven't listened to my part one, please go listen to it because I think maybe people who haven't listened to it would be like, well, I don't understand why she's saying all this stuff about her dad. Like, what did her dad do that changed the whole path of her life? He essentially arranged a marriage for me. And I mean, there's really no way. I can't try and sugarcoat it. That's exactly what happened. Because when you're in this cult and you are told, like, this is God's will for your life, this is who you are to marry, like there, you then you're not given any other options. This is not like, okay, yeah, that's nice that you think it's God's will for my life, but I don't. No, you're not saying that. Because if you don't do what your parent, and then you add on the second aspect of it, he was my pastor, so he's the man of God, right? If you don't do what your parent or the man of God says, you are in danger of God's judgment on your life. What that looks like could be you get cancer, you die in a car accident, you have something major happen to you, whatever. You know, you you can fill in the blank with whatever terrible situation you want to put in there. This is what you're in fear of. So you wanna you're avoiding that that judgment of God because if you step outside that umbrella of protection, you will get punished. And so it's like, do I want to be punished for the rest of my life for marrying the person that I want to be with? Is it worth the risk? And at 20 years old, I was terrified. I didn't feel like I had an option. So it's like, yeah, I'm in love with this guy. We're in love with each other, we want to be together, but I did it was an impossible situation. I didn't see any other option. Now, obviously, looking back, I'm like, that is ridiculous. Right. Totally should have elobed, those types of things. But then again, you and I hate this because my dad actually said this later on in life. Once I met my husband Ryan, and I'm jumping for it a little bit, but once I met my current husband Ryan, and he finally came around, my dad, because at first he was not accepting of him at all. Once he finally came around, it was like, well, see, it all worked out. Look at how it all worked out. God worked it out, it worked out. And it's like, you didn't live that though. I lived in that abusive home for five years. Yeah. And I'm still dealing with a narcissistic that's doing these things on a continual basis. Like, yeah, things worked out because the universe or God in its grace were it was able to bring me to a place that I ultimately deserved, which was with a loving husband. Yes, thank you, God, not thank you, Dad.

SPEAKER_01 51:38

Yeah, and apart two to this episode is Ryan is gonna be joining us in a bit, right? Yes. And so so a couple of the questions that I that I have I think would be best for him to be involved in. So I want to give you a couple of closing thoughts on this end. And if there's something else that you want to share with us um uh that we haven't covered, but but here's some of my closing thoughts. And forgive me because I'm processing a lot in real time, right? But you have welcomed me in your home. I've been here for three or four days now. Um, I've got another day or so left, and I've got to meet your children. Uh, last night we hung out. Um today uh we're gonna have some really cool food that they've never tried before. So I'm so excited to build this relationship. But as you are telling me the things that for whatever reason were not a part of your childhood, I see you giving that to your children. And and so like I'm having like I'm almost getting emotional with them. I'm having these flashes of you as a mom and and and Ryan as a dad, and and I'm so glad that your all's kids have you all. And if there's a silver lining to the to the that did happen um to you all is you're letting the generational abuse stop.

SPEAKER_04 52:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:54

And you know, I see how there are times absolutely you gotta tell your kids, you all know to do this, it's time to go do this. But you also when it comes to certain things, you ask them like, what do you think? What do you feel? That doesn't mean that's always gonna be right, you know, but it but it's not a it's not a dictatorship, it's not a it's it's not a God says, it's not a if you don't put your glass in the dishwasher, there's a burning pit of hell for you. And that's how you were kind of, and a lot of people that we talked were kind of raised, it's if you don't do this big or small, it's damnation. Yeah, and and so uh seeing you as a mom the past few days and and hearing these stories, the silver lining is you've got the generation of the generational um that your dad was passing down to you all, you you're letting it stop. I just want you to know that I see that and and it's very powerful, it's very amazing.

SPEAKER_05 53:55

Oh, that means a lot. That really does. I definitely want to break the generational cycle for sure. Um, and some people would say, and I know people have said, like, oh, it's such a shame, like they're not in church and they're not raising their children in church and all of this stuff. But when I feel like we could know God and experience God outside of the church walls without all the hypocrisy and all the drama and all the abuse that most churches bring, I feel very good and confident in doing that as a parent and saying, we're not doing this, like we are not going to continue this in our family. And so God looks differently for us, for our family, than it did growing up, because the God that I grew up with was not a good person. He was a tyrant and he was a murderer, and he was all the things that I don't want my children to know. He was somebody that I feared deeply. He was not love. The Bible says God is love. Where was he love? Because I don't see it. I wasn't taught that. When you are spanked and then told, I love you. I did this for you because I love you.

SPEAKER_01 55:19

It hurt me worse than it hurt you.

SPEAKER_05 55:21

All that, yes, that's abuse. That's gaslighting. That is a terrible pattern to put your children into, because then that's the pattern that I went into in my first marriage, thinking that that was the norm. I would like to get into this a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 55:40

Please.

SPEAKER_05 55:40

Okay. So I think the last time we left off with part one was me and my college best friend left in the middle of the night with my daughter, who was about six months at the time. Um, he was casting out demons from the house, right? Because uh one of us had come in with a Forever 21, you know, mini jean skirt or something. And he thought that was bringing demons into the household. We left in the middle of the night and went to my parents' house. I again had started talking to the counselor of that domestic violence organization, first step, and they were urging me to get into a safe house with my daughter. That freaked me out again because I, when I told her what was happening at home, I just told her, like you and I are talking. Yeah, but when she heard it, immediately she was like, We need to get you and your daughter in a safe house. This is not a good situation. Like she was immediately alarmed, which scared me. Yeah. Because I was like, Am I not taking this as seriously? Or do I not think it's well asked you?

SPEAKER_01 56:54

Did you already, is that the moment you realize that you're in an abusive relationship? Or did you you already knew that?

SPEAKER_05 56:59

I already knew I was in an abusive relationship, but so I could compare it to what it was like with the person I was with before my college sweetheart to my first husband. And I would say, this guy over here wouldn't hurt a fly. He treated me well, he was kind, he was sweet, he was gentle. This guy is the complete opposite of that. And I knew there was like a total difference, and I knew this was bad and this was good. And so, but when the counselor, who didn't know anything about my life, heard what was going on at home, she was immediately alarmed and was like, you need to get into a safe house. And then I started questioning her, like, what does that mean? What do I do? What, you know, where would I be? And then when she told me that I would not be able to tell anyone where I was, like, I'd have to, there would be like a curfew. I could go here, there, and whatever during the day. But at a certain point in the evening, I'd have to be back with my daughter. No one would be able to know where we were. That freaked me out. I I was like, what is kind of like, what is my life? I'm having this, like, all of a sudden, this epiphany, like, what is happening?

SPEAKER_01 58:16

I think that just because even if there were times that it wasn't physical, that doesn't mean it wasn't an abusive relationship.

SPEAKER_05 58:22

Yeah. And it's interesting that you bring that up because he would say, and I know, like, if if you're listening to this and you're in a situation where you are being gaslit by your partner or your spouse in saying, I've never hit you. I've never punched you. Just because you never hit or punched me doesn't mean that you haven't done other things. So he would say that to me. Yeah. I've never hit you. Why would you say I abuse you? I never punched you. I've never, in his mind, he never slapped me, he never punched me, but he would do other things, push me up against a wall. He would get in my face and scream at me, spit flying all over my face. He would do these things called cow bites, where he would take his hand and he would grip the inner of my thigh and then twist it as hard as he could. And I'd have big purple welts and on my thighs, no one would see my thighs because I wasn't allowed to wear skirts or dresses that long. So he would abuse me in areas no one would be able to see visually, but he never hit me, he never smacked me, he never punched me. And in his mind, everything else was not classified as abused. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:37

Well, and even when people, you know, say, well, he might not be the perfect husband, but he doesn't do this. So you shouldn't leave. And I'm saying you as in generalized, I don't know if this happened with you.

SPEAKER_03 59:49

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:49

But you're like, well, you know, when you know how God feels about divorce, you know, and so because they did, and and there you are standing on a on a leg full of bruises, you know, afraid to go home. Psychological abuse is the worst. I can get over your black eye.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

Black my eye before you that feels, but yeah, black my eye before you mess with me.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:07

Psychologically. Yeah, yeah. But I'm telling you, that's an interesting. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because I actually had an aunt. She actually called me when I left him and I was staying at my parents' house. She actually called me and tried to talk me out of getting a divorce. You know how God feels about divorce. You shouldn't divorce him. You need to go to counseling. And by the way, we did go to counseling. So I would like to talk about that for a second. I don't know if I talked about this part. I don't think you did. Okay. So in order for my dad to save face, even though it was the high school kids in the youth group that ultimately exposed him, I didn't have to do it. They did it because they went on a trip with us to California to a youth conference. And by day one or day two, they had pulled me into the stairwell and said, You need to divorce him.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:02

Well, children were telling you this.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:04

Yeah. 15, 16, 17-year-old kids who we're supposed to be ministering to. We're the youth pastor's wife and youth pastor, and they're seeing the abuse firsthand and saying, You don't deserve this, and you shouldn't live like this. So it was their word and not mine, not mine saying, like, I'm being abused, or my husband's, you know, being a being a jerk or whatever it's me. It was them seeing it and calling it out. And they were so concerned for me that they were like, you can't live like this. Like, I can't, I can't even believe you've been in this marriage like this long. So by the time they got home, we all got home. We flew home on a Saturday. The next day is Sunday, which is church. My dad, like his phone was blowing up. He had all these people calling him. Parents say, We are not going to allow our kid in the youth department anymore. You need to address this. We need to have a meeting after church. Everyone that was on the trip, including the parents and you know, Jenny and you know, her husband, we all need to talk about this, hash it out. So we had a big meeting after church, and I just sat there because I didn't even have to say anything. Everybody was telling what happened, and of course, he denied it the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:15

Of course.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:16

I didn't do that. No, I didn't. That's not true. You're lying. Oh, you're embellishing this or you're exaggerating, you're overreacting.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:24

And so whoever to blame was it ever like into the season these kids' hands.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:30

Everybody is always to blame except for him. I have known him for 25 years or more. And I he has never once taken responsibility for anything that he's ever done.

unknown 1:02:45

Oh.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:46

So, anyways, for my dad to he wanted to even take it a step further and say, let me show that you and him are making an effort to work things out. And so he had a Christian counselor that he was friends with that would often come, I think like once a year and do like a marriage seminar at our church. He was a Christian counselor, but he was like a legit. He had his credentials, like he went to school and you know, had all the letters after his name and all of that. So he had him counsel us over the phone. And he also had us take a highly sophisticated test that apparently they give to the military, a psychology test. It's called the MMPR. Y'all can Google it. Um, it's like a 500 question test, and that's basically gonna give him a baseline of like it's gonna show him what kind of person you are. So my test came back, he said all good, you know, whatever. He failed his test. Now the question was asked, how do you fail the test?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:06

Yeah, that's what I was about to ask. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:08

His explanation was one, you're a pathological liar, so you're not being honest on the test, or two, you are literally Jesus Christ in the flesh. He took it three separate times and failed every single time. So if that gives you a little bit of an indication as to how he is in his own mind, he literally thinks he is perfect.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:39

I was gonna ask, did he purposely lie on the test, or was this his truth? Like hook him up to a lie detector, he's gonna pass it.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:49

I again, the counselor said he either is a pathological liar or he's literally Jesus Christ in the flesh.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:00

But I guess the light microphone I see what you're saying. Yeah, like my flesh means does he believe those lies like that?

SPEAKER_05 1:05:05

Oh, yes, I do believe that. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:07

You believe your own lies like that.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:09

Absolutely. So like uh But he thinks that he is perfect, is in other words. So you can't essentially he told my dad, I can't help them because she she, meaning me, is willing to work with me and do the counseling and do the work. He doesn't think he has any issues. So he's like, I can't work with that. Somebody who isn't willing to look internally or take accountability, I can't work with that because it's gotta be both people saying, I have some issues, you have some issues, let's work on these issues. He didn't have any issues in his head. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:54

There were no issues.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:57

Oh, he didn't even. Oh, he well, he was like, Need all the counseling. Right. I'm good. Yeah. It's not my problem. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:03

Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:05

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:05

In the flesh. Yeah. So that sort of gave me it was like between the youth group kids saying what they saw, and then this counselor, who my dad had a lot of respect for, was like, I can't help them because he thinks he's perfect.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:25

Honestly, that was sort of my dad saying, Okay, I'm giving my blessing in you leaving him. Which he should have done anyway, because he your daughter's in an abusive marriage. Yeah. You should have been like, What can I do? Who cares what the church people think? But it all came down to how is this gonna look to the church people? Is this gonna cause a church split? Is this gonna ruin my ministry? Is it gonna and I was very cautious in that. In fact, I was praying, God give me an open door, a very obvious open door to where it's not me doing the leaving, it's you kicking that door wide open as the my heavenly father saying, Girl, I got you. Here's a way out.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:14

And he did do that for me. So again, it really wasn't my dad defending me. Right. It was him having to do all the things to appease all the people and say, and it still wasn't appeasing everyone. In fact, my ex-father-in-law called my dad when my dad fired my ex, he fired him as the youth pastor. My ex-father-in-law calls my dad and says, You shouldn't fire him because those people that are threatening to leave, they're gonna leave anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:52

So what I appreciate is you making that prayer, right? And God uh sent you with 14, 15, 16-year-old kids, and they saw it. They did not sit down and shut up like a lot of kids would.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:14

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:15

And they told people. And so I know that has to be very validating for you.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:20

I hate that your voice alone wasn't enough.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:23

It wasn't enough.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:24

But I appreciate the fact that at least these children, at least their parents believed them and was like, my kids will not go back into it's like we will we'll leave, we'll, you know, whatever. I do appreciate that.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:38

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:39

So so that so that was God answering that prayer free. Yeah, those kids were your Uber ride out the door. Right. Yeah, absolutely. I love that.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:51

So I actually got a restraining order on my ex because he was making a lot of threats, he was harassing me, all of those things. So I was granted a uh restraining order. Now it was also put within the restraining order that he was not allowed on the church property anymore. But there were families in the church that still supported him. They would still have him over to their house, they would still maybe meet up with them for coffee type of thing. And so I wanted to be as far away from basically I didn't know it's kind of like the fog of war. I didn't know who my enemy was and who my ally was, like at that point. And so I felt like I needed to distance myself from all of it because I'm like, I'm going through hell right now, and I don't know who's a demon and who's an angel. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like who's the gateway to who's gonna try and take me down, who's gonna give him information? Because in the information I'm talking about is something as stupid as if me and my friend Brenda went to the club or we decided to order a strawberry daiquiri out at dinner, was somebody going to report us? Right, you know, tell, you know, my dad or tell my ex and him, then tell the court, like, oh, she's a drunk. You know, make up, you know what I'm saying? Like, make up these scenarios to paint me in this light. And then also when you're from this cult, this I of B cult, even if you're from like a Mormon cult or you're from, you know, a Jehovah's Witness cult or whatever cult you're from, that is the community you know. That's how I was raised. That's only people I grew up with. That was my everything. My whole identity was wrapped up in this. So, like, even if I was doing something as innocent and as simple as ordering a strawberry daiquiri with my girlfriend at a restaurant, if somebody saw us, they would then get on the phone and spread the gossip around and say, Jenny's a drunk, she's an alcoholic, she's a bad mom. She's drinking. I saw her out with her friend, she's drinking, she's being irresponsible. And then that's what automatically people think of you.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:07

So leaving him, um, the feeling of I personally walked into a room and felt insecure enough that I thought all eyes were on me. But is what I'm looking for.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:22

Um, not only are you gonna feel all eyes are on you, but they truly are. Oh, absolutely. Like it's part of their job is to to monetize and judge. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:32

Absolutely. So when I left, yes, I acknowledge that God gave me, he straight out, like I picture him like literally like kicking that door open for me and saying, I got you, girl, go. This is your out. And I appreciated that. But then leaving and getting out of that environment and beginning my deconstruction journey, I was able to. That's when I describe it like, you know, you're peeling back the layers of an onion. So, like that first layer was like, Yeah, you had me here, but where were you when this happened? Why didn't you have me here? I did everything I was supposed to do. I obeyed my parents, I went to school they wanted me to, I went into full-time ministry, I was a youth pastor's wife, I did all the things I was supposed to do, and this is what I get.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:25

Yeah. And why did you him helping you get out of this unhealthy, flat out, abusive situation? Why did you have to lose everything else too? Why couldn't you have just lost your husband?

SPEAKER_05 1:12:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:41

You know, yeah, those are the questions that I would have.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:44

There was a lot of people in the church that just couldn't accept it.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:46

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:46

Because it was like they just unequivocally was like, you're you shouldn't divorce, period. You can work it out, everyone can work everything out, whatever it is, you can work it out. And then they couldn't accept the fact that I left and wasn't coming back. He couldn't even accept that. In fact, there was a moment when we were going through the divorce and we were at the mediation table, and he was sitting across from me and he was like, Okay, just the gig's up, like come home, like stop this. This is ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:18

And I'm like, I'm not doing this for attention, dude.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:21

And I literally was like, I kind of like laughed and was like, You think that I'm joking? Like, this is not a joke. I'm done. Like, I am not coming back. That there's no chance in hell. I am not coming back. And I think this is what people need to understand is this was an arranged situation. I was not in love with him. If I was in a marriage where I had at one point fallen in love with the person and had feelings of love and all of the things that come with that, then maybe it would be a consideration at some point.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:04

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:04

Maybe I am making a mistake. Maybe we should reconcile, maybe we should work it out. I never ever had the thought to do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:13

Well, not only did you not love him, but I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, but there was not even a light for him, even just who he is as a person.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:23

No, I was not attracted to him even. This is different. I mean, some people can be like, well, I once loved him, he's the father of my child, you know, all of those things. But like, I don't get any of those warm and fuzzy feelings at all with him because even when I did get pregnant with my daughter, he was accusing me of it being somebody else's the whole time. And I'm like, well, I'm not really sure who because I don't even have the opportunity to hook up with anyone else.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:01

And it wasn't who you are as a person or character, regardless.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:04

Right, you know, he he was accusing me of infidelity the whole time I was pregnant because we weren't able to get pregnant for five years of our marriage.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:14

Well, and he comes to the story of the reaction of your body, yes, you know, because there was not love. This is correct, you know, like so. Just a reminder, guys, like definitely check out episode one if you have it. Okay, so I want to be uh careful with how I asked this question. Okay. Uh, just because I I identify as an atheist, right? Um, and in the first episode, I asked you what is your relationship with God, with religion? And you know, you said that that you're a believer, you know, that you do believe. And so my question is when you made that prayer request for God to get you, do you think that looking back on it now, do you think that all the things that you did lose that God already knew that was going to happen? It was part of the plan for you to be able to really deconstruct? Because would you have really been able to fully deconstruct had those other things around the core of the problem still been there? You know, like the like such as like the church or the the people with their eyes on you. Like, do you think that God already knew and waited until he knew you were strong enough? Because you're you're not going to lose your husband. You're losing a lot. And you have to be in a right place and a right state amount of do it. And now you're ready because there's a price to pay, unfortunately. Like, do you do you think that?

SPEAKER_05 1:16:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:34

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:34

Yeah, I absolutely do. I think that I wasn't strong enough to leave before then. I think I had to go through some things and really get to a point where I was like, I'm not gonna live like this anymore. Yeah. Come hell or high water. I might lose everything, which I did. I knew it was a possibility. I I have talked to other people who are in bad marriages who are like, but the house, but this, but our joint finances, but our whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:10

The monetary stuff.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:11

Yeah, and there's always like an excuse, like it's a material excuse, or even the kids are excuse.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:17

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:17

Oh, but the kids, you know, it'll hurt the kids if we divorce. Well, guess what's hurting the kids? Seeing y'all have an abusive marriage in front of them.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:25

I don't want to teach my daughter that she is to tolerate yes, absolutely, or even the son.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:32

I I I I know wives that are abusive to their husbands, and so I guess the question that you have to ask yourself is do you want your children to have this same relationship someday? And if the answer is no, then it's time, you need to get out. You need to get out, it's time. It comes to a point where you have to say, I'm okay with losing everything. Yeah, I didn't, I left the house. I left basically all of my stuff, everything. And there was a point, and I don't know if I said this on my first episode, but there was a point where I went back to the house to get a few items, some clothes and some things for my daughter, things like that. And there was a shotgun laying in front of our wedding album on the floor of my daughter's nursery. And then there was an open Bible on her dresser with two bullets. Now I didn't stick around long enough to find out what the Bible verse.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:31

Like was our passage within the verse, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:33

There was, but it was an open Bible with two bullets sitting up on top of the Bible and a shotgun laying on the floor next to our open wet wedding album. So it was like, I have no reason to go back. I have no reason to get anything else. You don't do those things. He was sending me a message, period. And I mean, threats were made. Yeah. I was able to get a restraining order with the threats that were being made. I mean, I had taken a picture at the time of the scene of the of my daughter's nursery and what I was seeing, and then text messages and voice mails that he was leaving. He was always doing it under the guise of that God was going to take care of me. Of course, not take care of me like, oh, God's gonna take care of you. It's like, no, God is going to take care of you, cut you off. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:25

God, fear God. Okay, which kind of leads me to the part two question I was gonna ask you about, you know, the faith and and all that. I am not a believer. I can't say that one day I won't be, but I do think that if there's a God and he's looking down on people such as you that's been in these organized religions, that's been a part of a cult, I think that God's a big enough boy or being or whatever where he knows that you're gonna have questions. Uh, you might be mad at him. Yeah, you might even go through a phase where you don't trust him. Um, you don't even believe if he is here, right? I think that if God looks down and sees people on a cult and trying to get out and knowing they need to go through the deconstruction, I feel like that's what he wants. I feel like he would want people to say, you know what, I'm not this narcissistic being. I want you to break away from this, and I'm gonna give you the space and time to find me and come back to me when you're ready and rebuild when you're ready. And I don't think that's a damnation sin. And I don't think that like that God, like even me saying that out loud right now, that's who I would want to believe in. You know, and maybe one day I'll get there. So so like, do you is it what's your feedback on that?

SPEAKER_05 1:20:42

Do you think that's yeah, that's exactly how I view God at this point. I have deconstructed to the point where I do not think that God is this tyrant, this scary being in the sky that sticking bears on children.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:59

Yeah, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:00

Yeah, that was that was painted to me as a child. I do think that he is love, and I do think that he does have a plan for each and every one of us. And I do think that he wants me to come to him and find out who he truly is, and the version that I was given as a child is not the version that I believe that he is. I think the closest version to that is Jesus. I think that he was love, he was grace, he was mercy, he loved the unlovable. He called out the hypocrites and the Pharisees and the Sadducees, the people who were the holier than themselves. Yeah, organizations. Yes, exactly. He he was calling those people out. He wasn't calling out, you know, the people that were the undesirables, if you will, of piety. Yeah, he was eating and drinking with them. Yeah, I was hanging out.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:01

He wouldn't do that. He wouldn't bother the wine or whatever.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:04

Exactly. So that is who I believe God really truly is. Yeah. I think he wants us to come to the knowledge of who he is. And I think the best way to do that is through life experiences that lead you organically to find out who he truly is. I went through a time period after my divorce where I was angry at God and I was like, I don't want nothing to do with you. Like this is where I ended up. This was basically all your fault because it's trying to be like a good Christian girl.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:39

But again, it was the wrong version of who God truly was. Yeah. And so I I did go through a period of time for a few years where I kind of came back to quote unquote the God that I thought that again, that God that I was taught, and had a different kind of relationship at that point with that God to say, I'm giving you another try. Let's do another go-around of this. Let's start over, start fresh relationship. And ultimately it turned out to be a very similar outcome. Where again, it was you're, it's kind of like the wizard of oz, right? And you pull back the curtain and you see that it's still the same. The BS is still there, the hypocrisy is still there. It may just be in different clothing and may look a little bit less threatening, um, where the church may not be as legalistic, maybe not as culty, but it's still the same type of people and the same type of BS that's going on. And so I just I cannot subscribe to that anymore. And so I had to step away from all of those ideologies and say, okay, I don't want to completely throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. But what can I take from it and then reclaim it in a different way and say, I do believe in God. I do believe in a creator, I do believe in a higher being that's in the universe who has lessons for us to learn and a purpose for our life. I do believe all of that, but it just looks differently than the way I was raised.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:24

So I've been thinking about this for a while, you know, because you and I go, we go live on TikTok on Tuesdays, and you know, we we often have a guest with us, and I uh do some of the edits on your show, and so I get to hear all these stories.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:39

And so so I uh I start getting questions, and this is one that I've had for a bit, I've just never known really how to ask it. So I'm going to attempt to do it now. I feel like with religion, you know, we're taught that the moment you turn your back on God to hell with you, literally pitify. Um and I've I feel like I remember when I was letting go of religion that in a lot of the stories I've heard, it seems like if there's a heaven and hell, that's the last thing that people kind of really deconstruct from. And so I wonder if the fear of hell is what keeps them away from deconstructing or allowing themselves to deconstruct because I know that I had that moment of what if they're right and I'm wrong, and then what if I die before I rebuild? Because my goal in the beginning of deconstructing was to rebuild a relationship with God. During the deconstruction is when I was like, I don't know. I and I I I just don't think, right? Um, but I do know that there was a time where I was like, what if during this deconstruction I die? What if I'm in a car accident and I die? Is God gonna send me to hell? And so I would like your thoughts on that. Like, do you think that the fear of hell damnation is keeping people where they are versus trying to let that go and and find him him themselves because of what happens if something happens to you in the middle area?

SPEAKER_05 1:26:25

Yeah, I think for sure people are distracted with that. Yeah, they're more focused on that because again, it's a fear-based control. And I've mentioned this before. I wasn't so much worried about going to hell, I was worried about being left behind in the rapture.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:40

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:42

So there's two things that you can scare people with in Christianity. It's like you go to hell, but or you could be on earth also for this seven years of tribulation where it's gonna be like torture chamber, you know, and so you're focused on that instead of if you truly figure out and deconstruct from the way you were taught to think about God and who he is. I think when you step back and you separate all this other stuff that was meant to control and like fear-monger you, and you see that there is this all-powerful, all-knowing, all um encompassing being that actually loves you and wants you to be here and have a fulfilling life and enjoy these things that he's given us here on planet earth and meet people and have like meaningful relationships. That's the God that I believe in. Who's like I want David to be here on earth at this period of time to learn lessons, to make meaningful relationships, to experience the things that I've created for him, and then to ultimately become a better human being. And I think. Think we just get too bogged down with all this other garbage that we were taught. Like we're supposed to be scared in our whole life, we're working to not go to hell. Yeah. We're missing all these opportunities and all these blessings and all these good positive experiences that we could be having. And instead, on a Sunday morning, we're going to church being screamed at, told if you don't do this, that, and the other thing, something bad's going to happen to you, or you're going to end up in hell, or you're going to get left behind. Yeah, it is already a hell because you're in constant fight or flight, always your whole life. You're worried. You don't trust people. You don't trust anything. You don't even trust God. So I don't think that he wants that. I should say I shouldn't even say he. I should say they.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:45

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:46

Because I think God is more than just a him.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:50

I think God is also And I don't like it when like I love to respect pronouns here, right? Sure. But but when it comes to God and we saying he, I don't look at it as in the he being the he's a white, powerful me.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:07

And you know, I think it's just a way to gender exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:14

Yeah, that's a whole different thing.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:15

But yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:16

Yeah, yeah. So when we say he, uh it's I'm not picturing the he, the yeah, the European Jesus that's Michael Landon.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:26

Yeah, highway to heaven.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:28

Right. That's funny.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:30

Um okay, so let me ask you this. Not that anyone ever would ask me my advice on it because I was not part of a cult, I was not part of a crazy organized religion. I have had my religious trauma, but nothing crazy. You all probably already know that with other conversations we've had. But if anyone asked me my opinion on deconstructing and how to go about doing it, I feel like I would want to ask them to start with do you believe in heaven and hell? Mostly hell. Because I think that's what keeps people, like we were just talking. I think that's what keeps people into, well, if I stay here, I'm safe, just in case everyone else is right, because there's all these people saying that this is right, and there's me, because you feel like you're all on an island on your own, right? So there's a little me thinking, well, what about this question mark? And so I'm just safer here. Um so so if anyone ever asked me, I would say that my recommendation, my my thoughts, uh what I wish I would have known, and my deconstructing from religion was a lot uh on a completely smaller scale, right? But I think that I think if I would have let that be my first step versus is God real? You know, I think there would have been a little bit more of a less fearful journey with it. So what's your thoughts? What if someone messaged us right now and said, Ginny, I I think that I want to deconstruct, like, how do I start? Like, what do you think your step one would be?

SPEAKER_05 1:31:07

I would say, first of all, deconstruction is not something that happens overnight.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:12

Um, I am still deconstructing, I'm still trying to figure things out. I have a whole lifetime of, you know, stuff I'm trying to weed through, ideologies and paradigms that were given to me, brainwashing that was given to me, put into my brain. I guess the first step would be leave whatever church you're at and step away. Because if you're in this religion or this cult, you're going to be blinded by those ideologies as long as you're in them. So if you can step away from it and just kind of clear your head, you're gonna start like again, that peel of the onion is gonna start falling back and you're gonna be like, okay, now I'm kind of seeing this and I'm kind of seeing that, and I'm able to question this or question that. I had somebody tell me online recently that deconstruction was dangerous. I look at deconstruction as critical thinking. I don't look at critical thinking as dangerous, I look at it as very healthy and necessary. I think when you're not able to critically think, that's when it becomes dangerous. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:22

And I think that when people are in the mindset of it's time for me to deconstruct, they have already explored their resources, they're in a different place, you know, because that's a big step. I mean, these I mean you you were this, you were your faith and religion for more than half your life.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:40

Yeah, it was my identity, yeah, my whole world.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:42

But I I think that when people are in a place where they're they're like, you know, I need to deconstruct, I need to, regardless of even if that's the word that they use, I think they're in a a different state of mind to where it's not gonna be dangerous. They're finding those resources, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:57

I mean, who's gonna define dangerous for them? The people who are still in it, they're gonna be like, it's dangerous that you're thinking for yourself. Yeah, it's dangerous that you're questioning the way that we taught you how to be, you know, thinking about God or whatever. I don't think God is threatened by that. It's like you said, I think God wants us to come to a conclusion on our own as to who he is and to experience. If someone says I hate David, somebody to like you or hate you based on fear or control, yeah, you have to like me or I'm gonna send you to hell. That's not God.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:34

And we ask why, and and they don't have a true reason why, that would bother me. If someone said I don't like David, and we asked why, and there was a factual thing of maybe my morals or values or something that they that they just truly disagree with, and that's why they don't like me, I can respect that. Like, I want you to love me for the right reasons, and if you hate me or just dislike me, yeah, I want them to be for truthful reasons.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:03

And like what does make me sad that I do think about is what if there is a real God and I've turned away from him because of all the wrong lies.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:14

Well, just think of it even in terms of say, like, that you have a mutual friend and you don't know that mutual friend as well as the other person does. And they meet up with you for coffee and they're like, Yeah, you know, so-and-so, yeah, I know you know him on this level, but really he's like this terrible person and makes up all this narrative about them. And then you automatically take that as gold and say, Well, I know all about this person because so-and-so, our mutual friend told us he was this horrible individual, and you just take that as reality. I think that's kind of how it is with God, whereas like these cults and these religious organizations paint him in a certain light, and I don't think that's reality. And so people don't want to explore any other possibilities that he could be anything other than what they're taught. Who was the one that decided? Who are the people that decided? It was a council of men in Rome.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:12

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:12

Why are we listening to that? Like, why you know what I'm saying? Like, to me, God is so much bigger than the 66 books they decided to put into one book called the Bible. He's so much bigger than that. I don't even think half of that's accurate. No, right. I guess that's gonna make me go to hell, according to a lot of people. They're gonna be like, oh, clutch their pearls and be like, she's definitely going to hell because she doesn't believe the whole Bible. I think that there was so much left out of it that I think people in powerful positions at the time decided, well, we're gonna put this in to keep people in fear and control based. Yeah. Makes total sense. If you're a government or you're the dominant religion at the time in Rome, like, why wouldn't they do that? They need to control the masses. Governments have been doing that for centuries.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:00

I really liked how you said if if someone came to you and they're like, what's the first step uh that you would recommend with their deconstruction? And that you said you've got to get away from it. Yeah, yeah, and what it made me think of, um, just to put it in a different perspective, because again, where we come differently from different places, I try to I have to put things on a way that I wouldn't understand it. And now I've not had a drug addiction, but I've had several people in my life that have had drug addictions. And the ones that succeed the most, just that I know of personally, are the ones that has moved out of the city or town where everyone around them was a part of enabling it or still addicted, and they've had to move away from it. And so, so when you said that, I like a lot of what off of me. I was, I was like, Yeah, you've got to get out of that.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:52

You have to, yeah. Because it's all encompassing. So it's like your whole life, your whole identity is within this church community, this church family, as they call it. So you have to get away from it. Yeah. Because I it would be, I'm sure people can deconstruct while they're still going and around that environment, but it would be a lot more difficult. And I don't know that you would really be able to deconstruct as quickly unless you remove yourself from the situation. And um, you know, I think even maybe being the one to cut off those relationships for a period of time until you are deconstructed enough to be able to, if you wanted to, have those relationships with people again, to where if they made a comment like, David, you're not in church and that's why you're having car problems. Right. You lost your job because you're out of God's will. Yeah. Where you're not gonna have a visceral reaction to that, and it just goes off like water on a duck's back, and you're just like, whatever. Yeah. You can just be like, yeah, they're still in the cult, they still have that cult mentality. I'm not going to give that any energy. Once you get to that point, you're good. You can be around those people again if you choose to. But I think that in the meantime, when you're first deconstructing, one, get out of the environment, two, cut off those relationships. And and odds are they're gonna cut off for you because they don't want to be around somebody who's deconstructing, who's left the cult. They don't want to be around you anyway. You're gonna be shunned. No, it's gonna be done for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:34

Well, and that kind of goes back to your answered prayer, right? So many people came in and they were that that validated you, and you also lost a lot of people in the purchase and all this stuff. Yes. So, so part of your answered prayer was God went ahead and took those people out of your life with yeah, you know, so you didn't have to make the decision. I mean, I'm sure there was some people you had to make the decision with, but for like the the bulk of the cult following, they were out the door, you know, with the baby. Isn't that what you say?

SPEAKER_05 1:39:03

Yeah, baby with the bath water, yeah. Throwing out the baby. But yeah, I mean, there were times in my adult life where after my deconstruction, after I left the church, all of that, after my divorce, where I had to be in environments with those people again, i.e., a wedding, i.e., a funeral, those types of situations where I would have to be face to face with those people again, those were oftentimes a bit triggering because I would get the little old ladies that would come up and be like, we miss you. Come back, you know, and I'd be like, Do you though? Because when I was a single mom struggling to make ends meet, and I wasn't at the church anymore, just because I wasn't at the church anymore, like you weren't helping me at all. You weren't reaching out and saying, like, well, you were a stay-at-home mom, you probably don't have any money, like doing the math in your head and saying, like, how can I help her? She's a single mother.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:07

They missed who they wanted you to be.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:09

Oh, absolutely. That is such a good point, is that they had this picture of who I should be and who I was, and I was not that person. And when I finally became who I really am, it was again, you're a Jezebel, you're a black sheep, you're a rebellious, whatever. Yeah. You're not maybe she never really was a Christian.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:36

I did not know you and in that part of your life. The powerhouse that I know now, I'm like, how the hell?

SPEAKER_05 1:40:46

I have a powerhouse?

SPEAKER_01 1:40:47

Yes. And I'm like, how the hell could she have ever been in a cold?

SPEAKER_05 1:40:54

See myself as that, as like a powerhouse at all. I like I don't at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:58

Yeah, yeah. And so when I when I see this personality, this person that you have become after your deconstruction, I'm like, how could that have ever happened to begin with? But it's because you were born into it, you know, but but you always had it was so fire in the ego.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:12

Yeah. Yeah, but Eric's fire was always burning. See, they try to put that out all the time. And I would be told, like, a pastor would meet me. Now, this happened on more than one occasion where a pastor, now these are grown men, and I was around other pastors all the time because like my dad would have an evangelist come and speak, or he would have like a revival service, and you know, a missionary would come preach, or another pastor would come be a special speaker. And we were often taking these people into our homes, and you know, they would stay in our home, or we would take them out to dinner on Sundays after services, and we spent time with them aside from the church. And I cannot tell you the number of quote unquote men of God who would look at me as a child or a teenage girl and say, Your trouble. They would just look at me. It was almost like I felt like they were saying I had an evil spirit and they were calling it out. That's what it felt like.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:11

That's what I felt.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:13

Your trouble.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:14

They knew you were going to be calling them out. That's what the truth is.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:18

And I honestly think that they knew that and they were worried about the 100% because I could see straight through them. Oh, yeah, that they were they were counterfeit. Yeah. Yeah. And they didn't like that. That's why it's trouble. And here I am, calling them out.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:33

Not unholier than that. Right?

SPEAKER_05 1:42:36

The truth is a lot of us were taught to stay silent about things that hurt us, especially when those things were wrapped in religion, family, or this is just how it is. But silence protects systems, it doesn't protect people. And I'm done choosing silence. I want to thank my mom and my brother. This episode is for you. For every moment we felt alone, confused, or like we were the problem for seeing what was right in front of us. We weren't crazy, we weren't wrong, we were just outnumbered. And we made it out, and I'm proud of us. Next week will be part two of this episode. So please stay tuned for that. Share this episode with somebody who needs permission to question or to break out of something that never felt right to them. And if you're ready for more conversations that challenge what you were taught, push back on toxic narratives and say the quiet parts out loud. Make sure to follow, like, and subscribe. Thank you so much for listening. Before we close out, I just want to share a quick reminder. The stories told on this podcast are personal experiences and perspectives. They're shared to create awareness and connection, not as medical, legal, or mental health advice. Some of the conversations here focus on abuse, trauma, and other heavy topics. So please take care of yourself while listening. It's always okay to pause, skip an episode, or step away if you need to. And if anything we talked about brings something up to you, we encourage you to reach out to a trusted professional or support resource. You don't have to carry any of this alone. Thank you for listening.