Unholier Podcast: Cocktails & Confessions 🍹✨

Is it a sin or just a Sunday? Grab a drink and pull up a chair as we deconstruct the "holy" chaos of the Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) movement. This week, we’re joined by fellow escapee Kristin Watson for a much-needed palate cleanser. From the absurdity of "modest" fashion to the absolute terror of a tent meeting, we’re spilling the tea (and the gin) on everything our pastors warned us about.

What’s Inside the Episode:

• The IFB Girl Starter Pack: We’re breaking down the "godly" wardrobe—from the dreaded culottes and empire-waist jumpers to the paradox of chunky platform shoes.
• Purity Culture Paranoia: Tampon shame, the "toilet seat pregnancy" myth, and the infamous toothpaste analogy. If it was designed to make you feel broken, we’re laughing at it now.
• Wild Altar Calls: Remember the screaming preachers and the "Holy Ghost" water-throwing? We recount the most unhinged tent meetings and public call-outs we ever witnessed.
• The "Scandalous" Now: What would our younger selves think of our agnosticism, our voices, and our cleavage? (Spoiler: They’d be terrified; we’re thrilled.)
• The Deconstruction Drinking Game: We’re sipping our way through the trauma, processing our views on Hell, and reclaiming our self-worth from a system that tried to bury it.

Why You Need to Listen:

If you’ve ever felt the sting of religious legalism or the weight of a "modesty" lecture, this episode is your permission slip to laugh. We’re moving past the fear and embracing a life of grace, questioning, and genuine freedom.

#ReligiousTrauma #IFB #Fundie #Deconstruction #PurityCulture #Exvangelical #CultRecovery #TraumaHealing #ModestyCulture #Fundamentalism #ChurchTrauma #Therapy #SpiritualDeconstruction

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome back to the Unholier Than Thill podcast, where we question everything, including why we thought wine was grape juice. Today's episode's a little different. Think of it as your emotional support margarita after a heavy therapy session, because your girl needs a palate blesser. And let's be honest, so did you. So I brought back one of my favorite partners in religious trauma, my fellow ISP escapee Kristen. And we're doing something we're calling cocktails and concussions. This is where we take all the unhinged, bizarre moments from our cult upbringing, and we laugh, we process, and maybe side-eye our past self a little. We absolutely spill some tea. Because if you don't laugh, you'll cry. And we've done enough of that already. So grab a drink, whether it's wine, water, or something your former church would have put you on the prayer list for. And get ready because we're trauma bonding, but we're making it fun. So let's get started. We're gonna call this cocktails and confession. It's not called mop tails and confession. It's cocktails and confessions. Okay, okay, we'll give you pass justice once. Well, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Have a cocktail? Yeah. Hey, if you invite me back on for another one of these, I will have an actual cocktail that I don't have to lie about. How about that? Okay, that's good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

I got a little margarita mix in here and some tequila. I went very basic tonight. It's delicious. So cheers. Yes. Yes. Cheers. Cheers here. Coffee cocktail. I love her. I do too. Okay, well, I'm gonna love this conversation even more than the cocktail I'm drinking, since the cocktail is very basic. But our conversation is not gonna be basic. It's gonna be fun. Okay. I love it. And whether y'all are listening and you have a coffee or you have a cocktail or even a cocktail or whatever you have, you have a boring lemon water, you're gonna like this episode. It's gonna be fun. We're calling this the palette cleanser because, you know, the last few episodes have been a little heavy. So we're just gonna have some fun with this one. So Kristen and I, if you guys listened to her episode with me, I believe it was last month it aired. And Kristen was raised the same as I was in the independent fundamental Baptist cult. And so we have a lot of things that we can relate to on a trauma bonding level, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Yes, yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

But we don't want to get too heavy with it. We want to have fun with it. So tonight we're having fun. I'm drinking a cocktail, she's drinking coffee. We're gonna pretend that it's a cocktail and we're gonna get to it. So one of the questions that I have for you was what is one very normal thing now that would have gotten you side-eyed or rebuked back in your IFB days.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Oh my goodness. So normal thing now would be showing any type of cleavage, but it wouldn't have been a side eye. It probably would have been I had to be sent home and I would have had to change, and I would have had like a dozen women coming at me. Yeah. Yes, girl. Show that cleavage. And I will say this is actually somewhat new for me. So I'm having a summer. You're gonna love this. So my year this year, I've decided is the summer of skin. And so I'm embracing femininity with a lot of dresses. I'm wearing tank tops for the first time, which I know this is gonna sound really crazy, but I've always just been way more conservative in the way that I dress. And I think it's just been a hang up that I've had for a really long time. And this year I'm deciding I don't have that anymore. So I'm just kind of freewheeling it. Yay! I love that for you. And also I love that for your husband. He's enjoying that too. Yeah, shorts, tank tops, cute dresses. It's all the fun things. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Yes, for sure. Do it up, girl. When you put something cute on and cause something kind of sexy, you get a little bit of attention, it's like, okay, I dig this, I'm liking this. This is making me feel really good in my own skin. And I think every woman should be able to experience that. Yes, I agree. Okay, for me, one normal thing now that you would have gotten side either would be back then. I would honestly, I would say just like listening to secular music, listening to just normal music and going to concerts and dancing, solder normal things that I really, really enjoyed after I got out of the ISB cult. I just was like trying to decide what is the genre I like most. And honestly, okay, if I had to say number one genre for me for music would have to be 90s alternative. I love it. Yeah. Okay, brings me back to my college days. Yes, I did sneak around and listen to the 90s alternative back then. I'm sorry, I did. I was at Bob Johnson, but I know. You heaven. You're heaven. I am a heaven. Oh my gosh. I had an older brother that graduated a few years prior to me, and he lived off campus in the town. I love that. I'd go to his house, he'd let me borrow his CDs. I had my own car. So I mean, I was exposed to all of that. And so even to this day, that is like my go-to. If I'm saying, hey Google, play whatever playlist, it's gonna be 90. I love it. So it'd say, like, to a normal person, they'd be like, I don't gay. That's not me.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

It's a no-no. It is, it is. It's like my summer camp days when I got in trouble for Britney Spears, you know. Yeah, and oh my gosh, I hate that for you. No, but I told on myself, girl. I told on myself. I stood up at this dang bonfire and was preaching, which I should have known back then that I had a big mouth, because that was kind of ballsy to do then too. Because here I'm a girl standing up at the bonfire preaching to everybody the sins of worldly music.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Oh, but you guys, if you don't understand what that's like. I mean, Kristen, you were under conviction, so we can't blame you. It's I know.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

This is true. It's true. Was it conviction or was it peer pressure? I don't know. Ugh, actually, probably both, only because I was so indoctrinated. Like, I look back then, it took me years to get out of that mindset. So I was one of those that just hook, line, and sinker. I believed most of it because I didn't believe quite all of it. I never did. There were definitely some things like anything about hate or any of that kind of stuff. I was like, this doesn't feel right. But everything else, yes. I believed. I was a goody goody.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Yeah, I was not a goody goody, but I most of my friends were. They were I love that do not hang out with her. Do not think I was like a bad influence. Which fine, I'm okay, and I'm still a bad influence because I have this podcast, and I'm probably you know what? My hope is is that I'm being preached against in the pulpit on Sunday morning. Yes, yeah, 100%. That is goals. At least that is goals for sure. So if there's any preacher boys listening, please. And then if your kids are listening, that would be even cooler. And then maybe they could take like a um video with their phone of you preaching against my podcast, and that'd be amazing.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Yes, I agree. I think that would be amazing. I know I will have to say that on my YouTube where so I post on TikTok and Instagram and all the things, but specifically YouTube is where all of the old men and women tend to preach to me. That those are the kind of comments that I'm getting. They're giving me Bible verses, they're like, This is how you can be saved. I'm like, okay, thank you for the comment and helping my algorithm. They have no idea.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

They're like, what's an algorithm? So I don't mind. So I comment back and like, you know, heart, heart emoji, thing you. Thank you for your input. Appreciate that. Yes, yes. I'll get right on that. Okay, so my next question is if your younger self saw you now, what would scandalize her the most?

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Oh my goodness. Probably with how much I have to say, I can't stop talking. I am at the point in my life, no, legit. I I feel like everywhere I go now, I just have things to say. I have opinions, but there is obviously a way to say these things too, right? Like I'm not in there being like, oh, everybody's wrong. That's not my jam. Yeah. But I have a lot to say and I have a voice and I'm really strong about it, and I'm not as timid as I used to be. I used to really question the way I would think about things and my voice. And now I'm like, no, I have a lot to say. So I think she'd be in awe, actually, of me. She'd probably be a little terrified. But I think she would be in awe of just my ability to speak and how far I've come from where I was.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Yeah, I love that. That's so cool. I I would go kind of along the same vein as you. I think I don't think my younger self would be surprised at what I'm doing. Um, because I've always been pretty outspoken. But I think my younger self might be surprised at the fact that my view of God has changed. My paradigm is different than what it was. Um I've said this before, like I still believe in God. I just don't believe in the version that I was taught. So I think my younger self would be surprised at that part of it.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Yeah. Oh, I agree with you on that one too. I think with how much I believed it, you are correct, you're correct. That would be a huge thing for me, too. That I've gotten to the point where I genuinely, I just don't, I am more agnostic. I believe that there's something more than myself because I can't look at everything and not believe that there's something more. I'm just more more spiritual, I guess. But I don't have that desire to be like, I have to know. And there are just certain things. Like I've talked to a couple of people that are Christian, and I'm I'm way more open to things than I used to be. Because I've used to be very much like, I can't even think about the Bible. It's very triggering. But at this point in my life, I I love hearing different perspectives and different points of view. And the thing that that will hang me up the most about Christianity is hell. How? We all have people that have passed away. I have a grandfather and a brother that did. I'm not gonna sit here and think that's the case. So there's a lot of things where I can kind of like, okay, understand. So you're right. I think if there is a higher power for me, I'm just not at a place where I need to answer that question. I'm really happy with where I'm at. I think the fun thing that I like to think about that I hope is true, is having multiple lives. Like you come back, and that's why we have like deja vu. And so if I could like wish for anything, I think that would be really cool if that was true.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Honestly, I feel like that is something that I'm believing more and more just as I study it. To me, that makes more sense when you think of terms of in terms of eternity, that makes sense, right? Like we have multiple, we're here to learn lessons. Karma do its work, like our the goal is for God to bring us to perfection, right? That's what I think. But um, I think that multiple lifetimes where you have to learn a lesson, you're here to experience different things and just evolve into the best of what you're supposed to be. Because it's like, okay, think about it in terms of eternity. That is not linear, right? Eternity is like I can't even fathom what that is. And so if all we have is this one lifetime, that's really ridiculous when you think of it in terms of eternity because if our whole existence forever is based on this short period of time, that just doesn't I that that doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't add up. No say a person is they die when they're 20 and they didn't get saved, right? That means they're gonna spend eternity in a lake of fire? Like that doesn't even make sense to me.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

No, it doesn't. Like logically, if you think about a higher power, if there is this higher power that created everything, let's just say this hypothetical. Why would they want to do that? What would be the motivation behind it? It doesn't make any sense. Like, why create us to just have us die early, like you said, if something happened, to just have that happen? That makes no sense. I just think it's so fascinating that whole subject. And I feel like I'm a person, I have a lot of deja vu. I've always felt way older than what I am. And it just there's all these things that it just makes sense to me that as a collective, that you know, we're learning these lessons for the collective. That when we learn them, we're sending that back and that energy goes back. And I just think it's a it's a fun way of looking at it. Yeah, for sure. I'll take that over a fire pit of hell.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Yes, okay. So now let's get into church girl starter pack. Ready? Yes, let's do it. Okay, so let's build the ultimate IB Girl starter pack. What is in it? I'm gonna go first with my item. Ready? Yes, cool at oh my gosh, that was gonna be mine. Yes, no, yeah, that's I don't know what cool-ats are because the first time I said the word coolats, my husband's like, bless what? Yeah, he's like he's like, What are you saying? What is this word? Yeah, and I'm like, okay, it's like not shorts, but it's also not a skirt. Nope. Definitely has to be below your knee. And sometimes they have a panel in the front to make it look like a skirt. Yes, depending on how strict your IFB church or school was. And they're as big as parachutes, the legs. Like, okay, all right, let's put it in perspective here, people. If I could take an MC Hammer pair of pants and just take them off below the leg, they are less parachutes. I grew up in Michigan, so we had to uh toboggan in these at youth activities. We had to sled in these in youth activities in the winter, guys. We went uh let's see, ice skating, we had to do in the coolats, roll roller skating, had to do in the cool out, anything in swimming and anything and everything, yes. Swimming, we had to do in the coolats.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Yep, period. Yep, that's why I didn't do a lot of that stuff because I hated them. I detested them. So again, I look back, and as much as I followed the rules, there were definitely some things that I didn't, but I still followed the rules. I just didn't do that rule. But I would just do those activities in a skirt, which was stupid, like so stupid. But I was like, no, I'd rather look stupid this way than look stupid that way. Like I refused to wear them.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

You were a little bit more rebellious, I guess, in a sense. I would push the envelope and I would get cool odds that were like just barely below my knee to the point where they were like making me kneel on the ground to see if it's brown. And I'd be like, I love that. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Yeah. Okay, no. What else comes to mind? Yeah, mine would be a shirt that covers all the bases. So obviously it would have to be, which I'm kind of like that today, but this is not on purpose. I just like this shirt, but it would have to be a higher neck, obviously, a longer, we were more almost to the elbow, at least my church. There were a couple other churches that didn't care about that as much, but it would have to be like to the elbow. And it would have to be flowy because if your shape showed too much, you're gonna go change, or they're gonna make you put on a sweater. Because you know, we're not allowed to have shape, but we do have shape.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

And I always felt bad for like friends of mine that were like larger busted, yes, because they had a hurt that I mean they looked like because they had to wear the bigger shirts just to not show their chest at all.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Yes, that would be me now, but back in the day I barely had anything, so I never had anything. Yeah, but you're right, some of my friends were the same way and they developed sooner, and they would get in so much trouble because they would try to find shirts that were cute, you know, that looked good, but those were the shirts that wouldn't be approved. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Okay, so another thing that comes to mind are those jumper dresses, they were like the empire waist dresses, those were really big when I was in high school in the IFB. They're really in normal society, guys. Okay, yes, the empire waist, which basically made you look like you were fat or pregnant because they were it was empire waist, it was your waist and it's you just under your chest, so you look like the tent going down from your chest down, you look like a tent. Couldn't show shade. No, yeah, good times. So that would be in my IFB starter pack.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

So another thing that I would do, so because we couldn't wear cool clothes, I would do cool shoes. A lot of the girls would. So you know the platform like flip-flops back in the day. Yeah, we loved those because it was in fashion, right? So we could get away with it because the pastor didn't care as much about that. Um, so that's what we would do is we would wear cool shoes. That's like the only thing you could do. Yes, yeah, exactly. So I was so excited, girl, when the big, thicker heels started coming back because that was totally my jam back in the day. And now I'm like, oh, these are back in style. I love it. So I am obsessed with some of like the thicker heels. I think it's so much fun, and it's so much more comfortable, too. Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Okay, what was your go-to phrase that you heard constantly that now makes you cringe?

SPEAKER_00 19:00

It isn't necessarily a phrase, but the song that they would sing when we were in women's Bible study when they were talking about femininity. Found out here recently that it's actually a Disney song from way, way, way back in the day, which also makes me cringe. But it literally is about walking feminine and talking feminine and even smile feminine. Yeah, I think I think we talked about this on your episode. Do you know the name of it? I can't remember. I think it is titled like femininity or something like that, but it just the way they would make us so just picture this, okay? So we're sitting in a small room, you know, with fold-up chairs, and we're all sitting up very straight because we have to be very ladylike and very proper. My church was very, they were very big on that. My family was very big on that. And they would literally like have this song being sung. So it's almost like Stepford Wives, because we're all like sitting with our ankles crossed and our hands on our lap, and we're singing about walking and talking feminine.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

It's so cringy. If you've ever seen was it shiny, shiny, happy people, they talk about this where like women were taught how to talk in a certain way, how to breathe out, like all of those things. And even Bill Gothard had a manual where he showed women's hairdos, like this appropriate hairdo for a woman. This is not an appropriate hairdo for a woman. You guys, it that isn't a cult. Like, literally, a guy who's never been married, doesn't have children, who has thousands of followers, everybody idolizes him, is telling women how to talk and how to dress and how to cut their hair. Come on.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

And you know, speaking of that, it's really crazy. My church, the one that I grew up in, the pastor's wife had short hair, and they actually talked about that a lot. Did she? And I think it was something to do as she wasn't able to grow it out, but they would preach about it and be like, you know, well, there are exceptions, whatever. But it was just very interesting to me how each church had their exceptions based on what the pastor wanted there to be for an exception. So every church kind of had their thing where maybe it wasn't allowed in this church, but it was allowed there.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Yeah, that was the only thing I think there were little nuances like that in the individual contental Baptist churches where they could decide, right? But right, it was pretty much all like cookie cutter the same.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Yes, because everything was about like you had to be this very specific type of girl. And I think again, that's why I went back to my voice. It took me a long time to be outspoken, to be more out there because you're not supposed to be that way. So when you uh grow up in that environment coming out and actually having a voice, you're like, oh, okay. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Okay, so we're we're taking a little bit of a turn here with this question. Love it. I think I think it could be a fun conversation. So what was the most dramatic altar call you ever witnessed?

SPEAKER_00 22:12

I think the most dramatic was at that summer camp. Because picture, okay, you have teenagers. We had emotional. They kept us up for hours and hours. There were sometimes, so those altar calls, because they would preach for hours, we would be up sometimes till two or three o'clock in the morning, and it would all be about like, you're sinful, everything that you want is sinful. You are just these selfish beings. Kids would be crying. I was one of those kids, and it was one of those altar calls that that's where I gave up skating. So I'm gonna use my own example. That was probably the most traumatic for me because it was it was tears. It was just, but all of them were like that. Every single night it was just weeping and crying because they have us in a position where it's you're tired, you're emotional, you're hormonal, you're being told that you're florable the way that you are. And if you want to do anything for yourself, it's awful. It was nothing but just tears and crying and teenagers. And when you think about that picture, it's mind-blowing. It really is an abusive environment. That's brainwashing. If I've never seen it before, is the fact that they're keeping you up and they're just hounding into you, and you're going to the devil because you like to listen to music or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Yep. I know. I've been in many of those myself, so I know exactly what you're talking about. And it's almost like they keep you up for so long and you're just exhausted. It's almost like hazing, right? And they're just inspired. You guys, they scream or you know, listening to this and listening to that, or doing this, or doing that. You're going to hell, and you think you might be saved, but you're not saved. If you're doing all this stuff, you better get up here right now, or you better throw your CDs in the fire. I mean, it's and you feel like, okay. And then there's always that. I don't know if you guys had this, but we always had the Sunday service after we got back from camp where everyone would give their testimonies on a Sunday night. Yes. Yes. Everybody would get up and cry and be like, I got saved. For the fifth time. Yeah. Or I surrendered to full-time ministry. I'm gonna be a pastor's wife, I'm gonna be a missionary, I'm gonna whatever. Yeah. I would say the most dramatic altar call I've ever witnessed is hands down, my ex husband's grandfather's church, which was also located in Michigan. I'm not gonna say the name. I've never said the name. Number one, I don't want to because if y'all looked him up, I would be embarrassed for you to see who I actually had to be married to. Anyways, I'll leave it at that. But I would say the most dramatic altar call was there. They would have tent meetings every summer at their church. And so I would put his grandfather at the more extreme end of the IFP call, um, where he would even preach against uh like people having wire-rimmed glasses. Oh wow, he felt that the Beatles, John Lennon, made them topic. That the Beatles were demonic, and that if you had wire rimmed glasses, that you were going along with the Beatles, it's like the associations they would make.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

It was like Pokemon cards to our church. Pokemon was like the devil.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Back in my day, it was trolls, the troll little troll dials. I I can't even tell you how many preachers got up in the pulpit and was like, Oh, if you try to burn a troll dial, they won't burn because they're satanic. And so tried it or like for me. Oh my gosh. Um, but yeah, so the most dramatic ultra call was at my ex-husband's grandfather's church, and there was an evangelist, but he went to these like revival meetings, tent meetings, camp meetings, whatever you want to call them. Those tended to be, first of all, they were in the middle of the freaking summer, so it felt like you were in hell outside. I'm sure you're in the middle of freaking circus tent, and I kid you not, it is circus tent. It's got the freaking stripes, the white and red or the white guy. I swear to God. It's a freaking circus tent, you guys, and it it tracks because it is a circus. So we would be like middle of July or August in these camp meetings, these tent meetings, and the ground would be all like hay. They put hay on the ground, and then you'd be sitting in just rows and rows of folded chairs, right? Yeah, and so this one particular time our youth group went up there, and we're all sitting out there, and it's long. They would have two or three preachers in one night, yes, and so they would preach, and then you'd have their main guy at the very end. Well, the main guy at this particular time, his name is Sammy Allen. I'd have heard of his name through the grapevine, just like, oh Sammy Allen, Sammy Allen, oh my god, Sammy Allen. You guys like kind of excited. I'm like, who is this legend? Sammy Allen, oh my god. Thinking I was gonna get like something straight from God right to his mouth. And so I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay, all this guy's doing is screaming the whole time. Yeah. And there's in the front row to the side of the platform is a group of elderly people. So clearly they had taken elderly people either from like the nursing hall or picked them up and took them to this meeting, and they were all sitting in the front side section right next to the stage. A couple of them were sleeping, which is pretty standard if you're only friends. Yes, nothing's waking them up. If they're tired, they're gonna pass out. They're napping, they're chilling. And he stops preaching, he goes over to the podium, he has a glass of water, he walks over to them and throws it into their face. No, he screams, Wait, the man of God is speaking to you right now. And I was instantly like appalled. I'm like, man of God, are you freaking serious right now? What if that was that was thinking, what if that was my grandmother or one of my relatives? I would I was furious, and it wasn't even one of my family members, but I thought, this is insane. And so the sermon went on, and I was fuming the whole time. So then we get to the altar call, right? And he's one of those guys that wants to keep the altar call going and go. Yes, gotta love that. He's also one of those guys that likes to say the Holy Spirit told him that there is a person here that is saved. We're not leaving tonight until this person comes up here and gets saved. You know who you are, and so after a while, we're all kind of looking around at each other like, is it me? Please somebody stand up because I want to go home and go to bed. And also, like the fifth time that I've gotten saved. Did I say the words right? Did I actually mean it in my heart? Yeah, am I really saved? And so it's one of those things where it's like a mind S, if you will, where you're I don't know. Maybe the guy does get a word from the Holy Spirit and he's talking to me because I've been fuming over what he did to those old people in the beginning of the sermon. Yeah. Maybe it's me. That was the craziest. And then you also have in a lot of those Timmy revival meetings, you have the ultra calls where like they'll bring up a family of like eight, ten kids, and they'll sing really loud into the microphone. Yeah, and then people will start running the aisles. Like all of a sudden, the I've beat turns and they'll be waving their Bible crap and screaming. Yep. And it's like, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

No, the best parts are when they call you out. This had happened to my husband a couple times, so he never really went to the altar ever. I would say I was one of those I was there a whole lot because I was convicted all the time, but he didn't. And so he would tell me stories about how there was a preacher once that literally looked at him and said, You have something to repent. Yes. Could you imagine? Wow. He was a teenager. Like, could you imagine? He's like, I'll never forget that for the rest of my life. Yeah. And if I'm not mistaken, it was Jack um Scop. Is it Scop? Yes. Yes. Because he okay, he was in like the Michigan area. So, like all of that, those kind of people, that was his world.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Okay, for those listening, Jack Scott ran off with a minor.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

Yes, yes, and he and went to prison. Yes, yes. He has he has his autograph in his Bible.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Of course. Of course. Yes. It's probably worth more now that he's been to prison. Probably. I don't know. Probably.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

But isn't that wild? I was even wondering who it was. I was like, that's insane. That is insane. Because they would call you out, and at that youth camp that I went to, they would do the same thing. They would pass a basket around. They would literally say, if you have a blockbuster card, put it in there. And it's not even yours. It's your family's. It's not even your card.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

First of all, I had a Blockbuster card. Well, probably my dad did actually. Not lending a vet. Yeah. You couldn't, you I don't think you could have a blockbuster card unless you were 18.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

Yes. Yeah, so it's not even yours. It's your family.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

So I'm like, people, this is stupid, but whatever. Wow. They had that. Okay. That's interesting. Uh-huh. Yep. You imagine like your dad going to Blockbuster and being like, so my kid gave his blockbuster card up at Youth Camp. I need a new one. Like, is a blockchain stolen? No. I didn't know. They gave it up. They gave it up for God. Okay. First time I ever heard that. That's a good one. That's old one right there. Yes. Blockbuster. Oh man. Black from the path. It is. I know. Okay, so let's get into like purity culture because I I actually really like talking about this subject because it's actually a really popular subject, especially on social media. Because this wasn't exclusive to the I speed. This was like a big movement. Christianity. Yes. This was a huge movement in the 90s and the 2000s, and it spanned like all of evangelicalism, right? And maybe something of that. I maybe even like Mormonism and all of that. I'm not sure if they got into it, but I know it was a huge movement. There were books written, there were videos, there were like high school assemblies, even in public schools. I mean, I just saw who went to public school and they had the purity ring ceremonies at the public school. And I'm like, Yes, okay, I it's wild school at that point in my life, but that is crazy that they allowed that. Okay, so what was the wildest thing that you were told about dating, sex, or modesty?

SPEAKER_00 34:11

I actually made a video about this and it got a lot of conversations going. Okay, let's hear it. Because it is wild from the pulpit on a Sunday service. You saw that on your TikTok. The pulpit. Yes. And I will never forget the moment he did it because I was sitting there and I was dying. I was like, how are we talking about this right now? I was so embarrassed. And just, I don't know, it was one of those moments of now looking back, I'm like, no one else would have talked about that. No one else. But on a Sunday service, because he was preaching about just Jezebel behavior, being a modest woman, and he goes, it goes so far as to the things that you wear underneath. And he was against it for everybody, not just single women or girls. He was like, it's a mindset. When you have that on, you're going to be loose and you know, promiscuous. And I'm sitting there and I was like, oh my God, get me out of here. I'm so embarrassed. I'm going to die. How inappropriate. So I will never forget that service for the rest of my life because it was horrible.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Yeah, that is so inappropriate. See, guys, I mean, they try to tell us even what kind of undergarments to wear. Yes. I think the craziest thing that I was told about sex was, especially during like the purity culture era, was that if you sleep with a guy and then he sleeps with somebody, and then you sleep with somebody, and basically however many partners you all have, you are basically having that number of partners in your bed with you. So like it's the guy that you're sleeping with has been with five people before you, then it's like you're having all those five people in bed, including the guy that you're with with you. Oh, they're talking about orgy. I didn't even know the word orgy back then, but I was like doing some math in my head.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

I was like, this doesn't make any sense. Had a kink that he wasn't talking about, but was talking about it. I know it's just so bizarre. It is wild. And then I think too, the lack of education about sex in general. So I don't know if you were like this, but I was always terrified that like, what if I sat on a toilet seat and I got pregnant? I know that sounds wild, but I genuinely believe that the wildest things would come into my head because I had no idea. How does this happen? I never got educated, I never got the talk. Like when Nick and I met, I knew nothing about anything. Anything. It's wild. So like I had no idea how you actually get pregnant. So I was like terrified about a freaking yeah, it's mean.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

And then so you guys were married at 19, right? Was it 19? Okay, yeah. I was married at what I was 22. So I I and at 22 didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Yeah. Now, thankfully, because Nick was a little bit more crazy than I was in the fact that he would read things or watch things. So he knew things. And because he was so safe to me, I was able to ask him those questions. Um, so thankfully I had a good resource with him, at least. So he was able to educate me, I guess. But it's so sad. That's what it took. As a 19-year-old girl, I knew nothing. The only thing I knew was pregnancy, like how that happened, and I got that talk about your body and your period and that kind of stuff. But anything beyond that, nothing. It was like void. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Okay. So the next question is what fear-based teaching do you lack that now? But it used to control you. Would that be like the toilet seat thing? Like you might get pregnant if you sit on a toilet seat.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

That was definitely one. Yeah, that was huge. Now looking back at it, if I was just given general education, I wouldn't have that fear. And the the fact of how much fear there was around everything, and I think most of it is because they controlled what you learned. So because you couldn't gain more knowledge, you were fearful of everything because all they gave you was this, when really it's this. You know what I mean? Yep.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

So I think for me, and sorry guys, if you're listening to this, maybe a little TMI, but just barely take a second. Because if you have daughters, like yes, yell, please educate your children. That's all I have to say. When I say this, I'm just take it with the greatest salt. But we we were taught that basically if you use tampons, that we are cheating your virgin virginity. And I'm like, Yes, yeah, tampons. Yeah. So I didn't wear tampons until after I had the surgery that I had.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Oh my gosh, you're gonna laugh at this one. Like, my god. Let's keep that toothpaste in that tube, my friend. Because I was just talking about this today on TikTok about how they would they would squeeze out toothpaste and they would like try to shove it back in, and they'd be like, see, it's impossible. Once you've given these things away, it's not gonna go back again. So that's what I think of.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

That okay, that is but I had not heard the toothpaste analogy, but that is buttney. Okay, also you can get toothpaste back in the tube.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Like I yeah, you technically could, it would just take a while. You would just have to like coax it in. We don't call this cocktails and confections for nothing, people. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

I love it. Okay, mine is stupid. So if I had a slogan, I don't know why. I feel like this is a Nicki Minaj song, or maybe it's a Cardi B. I'm not sure. I always think this is confused. I just think that's on bees in the trap, bees in the trap. That one that's my purity culture slogan because you bees in the trap. I like that. That's good. But too worldly, girl, too worldly. They won't even know. No, but that's true. So this is a drinking game, so you have to act like you're drinking. Okay, Bailey's up. Okay. Okay, so drink if you were told the fart is deceitful above all things as a reason to trust yourself. I got it. Yes. Yeah, I should have had shots ready.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

Honestly, I should chug that because that was preached so much, it's not even funny.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

You can't trust yourself, people, even though God gave you an intuition. You can't trust it. That's evil. Evil. Okay, drink if you thought secular music would ruin your soul. Yes. Okay, we're drinking every single time. Drink if you got someone, and now you are that someone. Oh, heck, yes. That'd be freaking to that one. Okay. Drink if you are scared of demons in a very specific way. It says oddly detailed way.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

No, I genuinely was. Like, I believed that like in secular music, in movies that you would watch, that the a demon would come in you. Yes. Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

All right, we're drinking to that. I'm almost out of my drink. I know. I'm like, I need more. Okay. Drink if you had to Google, is this actually a sin as an adult? Did you really? I did. Oh, a few of them. Okay, you're drinking on that one. I'm not drinking on that one because I'm like, yeah, don't care at this point.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

No, because for a few years, I did. I genuinely did. Fair. You weren't deconstructed yet.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

It's fine. No, it took me a while. Okay, so now we're going into deconstruction. What is one belief that you let go of that changed everything for you?

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Uh, the belief that women held no power was probably the one that changed everything for me because it changed my view on who I am and what I was able to accomplish in this world. And honestly, it was an overtime thing. It wasn't something that automatically happened. I was starting to get better within my career and hospitality. And I moved up really quick and I was given all this authority and an amazing position. And people listened to me. And I was like, this is possible. And as soon as I saw myself that way as successful, I was that it changed everything for me. And it was this slow process, but that's where it began for me is being able to see myself through other people that weren't within the cult who saw me as a powerful woman who I never saw before. So it kind of took that reflection of others and my ability to really be successful to be like, oh, okay, I'm a boss. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

Powerful women. We love that. Yes. I would say for me, my my one belief that I had to let go that changed everything was probably feeling like I wasn't worth anything or that I didn't deserve anything. Um that was something that was helped through therapy and just getting that like self worth back. I mean, I don't even know if I got it back. It's like it never was there, right? Because I was born into the and we were always taught that like you're not worth anything, and you're Um your filthy rags and you're nothing without God and you're nothing without Jesus' blood and all of this stuff, and it's just simply not true. And so I think once that I was able to realize that I was worth something and that God loved me unconditionally and that I have a purpose for my life, aside from whatever preacher or pastor was telling me, that changed everything for me. And I felt empowered at that point, and that's what did it for me. Who would have thought we actually have value? Exactly. Yes. Yes, we do. Because we're Queens, girl. Yes. Okay. What surprised you most about life outside of the IFB?

SPEAKER_00 44:51

How free people were. I will never forget. So my first job in technically hospitality, it was a very small town that we lived in. And there were these cabins that you could rent. So it was like a golfing community, and they had cabins and they had a front desk like any hotel would, right? That was my first position. And one of my friends that I met there, she had a party at one of these cabins. And I was probably still only like 20 years old. But I will never forget, Nick and I went. We ended up leaving. It was so bad because I felt like I was sinning so bad. People were dancing and just letting loose. It terrified me because they were just free. Like there weren't these inhibitions. You know, my best friend now, I adore her because she didn't grow up religious. So she has no negative connotations to sex, to just anything, the naked body, like everything is just normal. And I'm like, what is that like to be able to look at these things and not have all of these hangups? So it's so refreshing to be a friend with her. Just seeing that from her perspective, seeing how free people are to just be themselves is amazing. Terrifying at first, but now it's amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

And I would say, similar to what you're saying, is I felt just how fun life could be in just possibilities that we were never given, right? And yeah. Meeting people outside the church that were fun and good people.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

Being able to just go out and meet people. Because when we first got married, we even though I worked and I was among people, I still was really scared of that world. So I would go in and I would do my job and I would go home. And everybody would be having all this fun around me. But because I was so scared of everything and just scared of people and scared of relationships, because uh again, remember his family sent out this book to people, and there was just so much fear about being seen a certain way or being judged that I was very much like this. Like I just didn't allow myself to really get close to people until a few years out. Then when I did, I was like, oh, this is what this is like. And everybody was amazing. Like there wasn't that judgment. It was way more free thinking, way more, oh, you believe this? Oh, you don't. Okay. And it wasn't a big deal. Like everything within that world is a big deal. And everything is like an existential crisis. And you go out into real world and everybody's like, oh, you're a Christian. Oh, you're a Catholic. Okay. Oh, you don't drink or you do drink. Okay. Like it's not a big deal, which is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

Yeah, I totally agree with you. And that's a really good point. I think my husband has to put me in check sometimes. Well, bath, you know, like, I can hey this is cult gen talking right now. Like, you need to check yourself.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

Yes. Well, it's hard because those things, you know, we've been out of it for so long. Yeah. But we're wired. And I think you made a good point earlier. A lot of people that went into these things as an adult, you have a pre-cult, you can go back to that. There is nothing for us to go back to. We never had it. So we're creating who we are as an adult. So we're like having to rewire everything because everything's been wired already. So it's very different for people like us who grew up in that. It's just a different mindset. So I think I truly believe that it is just this is our brains. This is what we have. We just have to be kind to ourselves and be like, okay, if I'm thinking really crazy about something, let's pause. Do I actually think this? Or was this how I was taught to think? And generally, it's this is how I was taught to think. And I need to figure that out and rework it and see what do I actually think about this situation?

SPEAKER_01 48:42

Yeah. When you're born into it, that's all you ever knew. And growing up and your brain is developing, that is what's going to form a lot of your ideologies and your paradigms in adulthood. And that takes a while to deprogram from.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

It does. And I feel like you almost have to go to, because I don't know if you went through this, but I almost feel like I went to extremes in some things because I believe something so hardcore this way. So I'm like, oh, it must be this completely opposite. But then I was like, wait, this kind of feels like the cult did, but in like the opposite way. So then I had to backtrack and say, okay, where is where am I standing in all of this? I don't, I don't like to live in extremes. I'm just not an extreme person. I like to think that there is a way for people to be able to see each other from different points of view and understand from more of a middle of the road, which it's funny. Did they preach in your church about being a middle of the road Christian? Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. You can't be in the gray. You can't be in the gray. Gotta be black or white. I think that's why a lot of us go to extremes because we were taught that middle of the road is bad. And it's like actually, that's probably the best way to be because that you understand that there's nuance. You understand that people are gonna see things, they have different experiences, they have different points of view. So we're all different. And so it's okay to meet in the middle because that's probably the healthiest way to look at it. But I think that's why we'd go to those extremes is that's how we were taught. Oh my gosh, we just made connections. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

I love this for us. I need to know. Okay, so I have some fun rapid fire questions for her. Okay. Two skirts or culottes. Skirts, hardcore. Same. KJV only or backslider bible. Oh my god. I guess it would be like the ESV or the NIB.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

Yes. Are we talking about like what our old self would have wanted? I mean. Or now.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

I would say now. Let's just say like now. If we had if we're like forced to choose one or the other, what would it be? So you're saying skirts, I'm saying skirts versus pull-ups. KJV only or backslider Bible. So let's just say ESV.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

Yeah, let's do the backslider ESV because that's probably easier to read.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

I'm gonna say KJV only because that's all I have, but I spend another 70 or 80 bucks or whatever on a Bible. Oh my gosh, that is so valid. It's not even funny. I love that. Okay, hotluck staple, casserole or dessert? Oh, dessert all the way. Okay. I'm gonna say casserole. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 51:36

I do and love it. I have a sweet tooth. I always have. And I always made the dessert for all of those, so I'm kind of partial. Okay, favorite rebellious moment. So all of the girls in my church, they were all sewing. It was such a big deal. You know, we all had to do those skills that were homemaker or whatever. And I was like, no, but I had to do something that was so feminine. So what I ended up doing, they had at the Joann's, like the local craft store, they had a one-stroke painting that you could learn. It was like where you dip your brush in a couple different like paints and you could do these one-stroke like flowers and murals and things. So it was still seen as feminine, but it was what I chose. So I was the only girl in church that never learned how to sew. And I was very proud of that. I was like, I got to kind of choose what I wanted versus what I was told to do. Nice. You're so rebellious.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

I think no, I painted, girl. I painted. He doesn't somebody get Kristen a water cooler paint set, please. He should relive that rebellious moment. I I can't think of an actual one moment because I was pretty rebellious considering I love that. I mean I just like had my goal existence was rebellious. So it's the whole thing. I mean, it's all my favorite. Um I love that for you. Okay. So as we start to close out this episode, because we had such a fun time and I am well. Now you're done. Love. Out of my cocktail. Okay. So what would you say to somebody who's just starting to question things? Maybe they're still in the IFB, or even if they're not in the IFB, maybe they're just like in whatever religious cult they're in. If they're just starting to question, they're like their paradigm's starting to shift a little bit, things aren't adding up. What would you say to that person?

SPEAKER_00 53:40

Give yourself grace all along the way is probably the biggest thing because I think in that environment, we're so hard on ourselves because that's what they preach to us. They preach that we're born sinful and we're evil. So all we know is kind of unkindness for ourselves. So the biggest thing that I think you can change to really affect that is kindness to yourself and understand that it's going to be a process. So if you can have grace along the way, you're going to be easy on yourself and allow yourself the time it takes to actually think about what you actually believe with something. But having that grace, I think, is the biggest thing that I would tell anybody.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

That's a good one. I think even when you get out, even as a reminder, because you are going to it's it's a process, it's not something that's overnight. So, like even when you are out of the church or the colds, whatever group you're in, and you're trying to kind of find your footing, I think to just have that continuous grace that you give yourself.

SPEAKER_00 54:47

Yes. Because I still I I made a video one day and I allow myself a lot of times on my social media to be vulnerable because I feel like if I can allow someone an insight too that I might I'm I am happy. I'm a happy person. I love my life. But I'm not like this all the time. I get triggered and I had a really bad day one day, and I got triggered bad more than I'd been probably in years. And I was so hard on myself. I'm like, I've come further than this. I shouldn't allow myself to be that way. But then I was like, wait, wait, wait. This is old Kristen talking because that mindset is old Kristen. This is brainwashed Kristen thinking I have to beat myself up. No, I don't need to. And so I allowed myself to be really emotional in there. And I just spoke on the fact of that it is okay to have these moments and it's going to happen. It continues to happen to me, but that's okay. We are human, we are going to have these things, but having the ability to be kind to yourself will change everything because then you just allow yourself to feel the things, and then it doesn't hold power over you. It just becomes a thing that you can continue to process through.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

Yeah. I echo that. I also think that it's okay to question allowing yourself that to challenge your paradigm and then saying, you know what? The grass is actually greener on the other side. Yes. Yeah. It is true. There's many of us that are on the other side of the fence and we are loving life and living it to its fullest at this point. And I think also just live your truth because for so long we were living what other people's expectations were of us. We were living essentially a lie. Like we were people that really weren't truly like this isn't who you're gonna be, this is who you're gonna be. Yes, you're gonna believe in all they put us in this box. So I think just like living outside of that box and living your truth is so freeing. And come on over to the other side of the fence. That's all I gotta say.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

Yes, because honestly, at the end of the day, just freedom to be you, whatever whatever that looks like. Because I think we talked about this before, that it's so freeing to just take something that maybe you thought was something you were made to like, but maybe you actually like it. So just having the ability to have autonomy, to like what you want to like, because it's your life, it's nobody else's. I think that's a great place to end.

SPEAKER_01 57:32

This is exactly what Cocktails and Confessions is all about. Taking things that once controlled us, shamed us, and honestly made zero sense and reclaiming them with laughter, honesty, and just the right amount of chaos. And the best part, this is not just a one-time thing. We're making this a regular series with rotating guests, new stories, and probably a few moments where we're all collectively saying, Wait, what? Because healing doesn't always have to be heavy. Sometimes it looks like calling out the absurdity. Sometimes it sounds like laughter, and sometimes, well, sometimes it comes with a cocktail in hand. If this episode made you feel seen, validated, or just slightly less alone in your what the heck was that upbringing journey? Make sure you follow, share, and come back for more. And remember, you are allowed to question it, you're allowed to laugh about it, and you're definitely allowed to outgrow it. So cheers to that. We'll see you on the next episode. Thank you for listening. Before we close out, I just want to share a quick reminder. The stories told on this podcast are personal experiences and perspectives. They're shared to create awareness and connection, not as medical, legal, or mental health advice. Some of the conversations here focus on abuse, trauma, and other heavy topics. So please take care of yourself while listening. It's always okay to pause, skip an episode, or step away if you need to. And if anything we talked about brings something up to you, we encourage you to reach out to a trusted professional or support resource. You don't have to carry any of this alone. Thank you for listening.