The Tithing Trap: A Former Pentecostal Minister Exposes Church Control

What happens when a man dedicated to protecting the community and preaching the Word starts to see the cracks in the foundation?

In this episode of the Unholier Podcast, we sit down with Shawn Towers, a former police officer and Pentecostal preacher who walked away from a lifetime of faith to reclaim his cognitive autonomy. Shawn opens up about the high cost of questioning doctrine—from the social sting of shunning to the internal battle against lifelong indoctrination.

We dive deep into the contradictions of the Trinity, the "abuse patterns" found in traditional Gospel dynamics, and the psychological grip of tithing and church leadership. Shawn shares how education and critical thinking became his tools for liberation, leading him to author The Unlearning Lab and Stop Tithing.

If you’ve ever felt like you weren't allowed to ask "why," or if you're navigating your own journey out of organized religion, this conversation is for you.

#Deconstruction #ExPentecostal #ReligiousTrauma #UnholierPodcast #ShawnTowers #FaithTransition #ChurchCritique #Atheism #FreedomOfThought

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome back to the Unholier Podcast. Today's guest isn't just Deconstructed. He walked away from the entire system. Sean Towers is a former police officer, former Pentecostal preacher, and now a voice that's shaking the table inside the Deconstruction community. He went from teaching the Bible with authority to publicly challenge the very foundation it stands on. And we're not tiptoeing around it today. We're talking about belief, indoctrination, fear, control, and what it actually takes to reclaim your mind when your entire identity was built on faith. If you've ever felt that quiet voice in the back of your head asking, what if this isn't the truth? This episode is going to hit hard. So let's get started. Sean, what did you believe with your whole heart when you were a preacher?

SPEAKER_00 1:01

I believe that Jesus Christ was Lord to the glory of the Father, and I was willing to sacrifice my life on that.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Yeah, you were willing to die on that hill, right? Because that's what they teach. That's I think one of the first fractures I had in my religiosity back in the day was the belief that Jesus is God and God is Jesus. And the whole concept of the God of the Old Testament being the same person as Jesus in the New Testament, it just never really added up for me. And you don't question that because God's ways are higher than our ways. You have to accept it by faith. You don't question God. And then it was always the excuse, too, like, well, the Old Testament was under the law, and the New Testament's under grace. It's like, yeah, but it doesn't even seem like the same person. Did you ever have those thoughts too?

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Absolutely. I remember sitting in the front of my congregation in the front row, and my pastor was teaching that Wednesday. And I remember just as like it was yesterday, I turned to my ex-wife and I said, Jesus is God. I made a connection because of what he was teaching. And so at that moment, I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Okay, I figured it out. And then it was very conflicting because if there is only one God, and then this God knows all things and established the end from the beginning, how can God die? Was one of the questions I had. Um, who was Jesus praying to in the garden in other places? And so, of course, my pastor apologetically gave me some explanation that made me feel comfortable at that time. But I I always that was a conflict in my mind. Definitely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Yeah. And you bring up the garden when Jesus was, of course, praying, Father, if it's your will, let this cup pass me. He didn't really want to die, right? Like, who wants to be crucified?

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Yeah. And that didn't add up for me either. It's like, well, if he's God, he doesn't even have to do this.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Like, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

But then of course they'd be like, well, that's the point. He didn't have to, and he did because he loves us so much, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Yes, yes, yes. But that that also was part of my difficulty because my thinking was first of all, if this is an intelligent God, this does not sound like an intelligent plan. That's number one. And then number two, one more time with the garden. If Jesus is God, we have two things. Then who is he praying to? And then the other is the whole free will explanation that I get a whole lot of. And then I say, Well, do you worship Jesus? Do you believe that he is God or the Son of God? Most Christians say yes. And I say, Well, his will was not even done when he was in the garden. He said, If it be thy will, let this cut pass for me. But nevertheless, not what I want to do, but guess whose will was fulfilled in the end. And many other places in the Bible, like in Isaiah, it says that God's will shall stand, no other will. And so there was a lot of conflict in there. So much conflict.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

Yeah. There's so many stories, just even within just Jesus' time on earth, right? Where even just not knowing that Judas was going to betray him, but then he knew, but then it happened anyway. And and then you think about when Lazarus passed away and they were all upset. Well, if you would have come earlier, he wouldn't have died. And he wept with them, but then raised Lazarus from the dead. And it's like all of these things that he already knew, but then they happened anyway. But did he know? And then, like you said, with the garden, I think that is like a really good example. And then also on the cross, when he's like, Why hast thou forsaken me? Right. He turned his back on his son, but it's yeah, sounds schizo. He's also himself turning his back on his son.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

Yeah, what's going on? Yeah. But see, we were not allowed to question. That's the thing. The moment you question, a target is placed on your back. And so we knew who can I talk to? You know, so we would get in private, and you even in private, you had to be careful because if my little cousin tells mom what I just asked her, I always wondered if Adam and Eve were both that's the beginning of humanity, all right? All humans, then incest had to take place. Like, who where did all the people come from?

unknown 5:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

We couldn't ask those type of questions. You know, you got popped in the mouth or uh sat down.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Yeah. So when you started questioning, what did that cost you? Did it cost relationships? Did it cost like leadership roles?

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Wow, that is a wonderful question. And so it cost me both when you say leadership role, friends, family, I would say almost virtually everything, because I call it the cardinal sin within the church. And it's not blaspheming against the Holy Ghost. No, no, no, no. I say it's saying you no longer believe. And uh, and when I did that, and it didn't start that way. It started with just questions about doctrine. And my pastor told me after almost 15 years of the only church I ever been a member of, to find another church and go there where I was satisfied with their doctrine.

unknown 6:46

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

And so, yeah, and and I still went back another Sunday, and I remember when I thought, I can't do this again. You know, and I told my wife at that point in time, we're not coming back, we never went back. And so I lost that church community as far as leadership roles. I felt because of the types of questions that I would ask, that they didn't really want me in leadership because I think they sensed that I would get to this point where I am today because I was constantly asking questions, right? Yeah, but the type of questions I was asking, I felt were relevant. Okay, if we are supposed to serve the people, why are we eating steak while they have hot dogs? That's anti-Bible. Right. The Bible says Jesus would strip himself down and wash the apostles' feet. If you want to be first, you must be last. So I was a problem. And so I lost, I would say, virtually everything. My own family. Certain members may reach out every now and again. I would say over 90% do not. And I was the favorite on both sides of the family. Only child, so I really, really was tight with my family. But this is the price to pay. And I did not know persecution until I became a non-believer. That's very important. When I was a believer, everywhere I went, I had support. I remember going for a job in law enforcement, and I remember the chief telling me, Well, we're brothers in Christ, so it's gonna be all good. And so I know under many different circumstances where there is this uh nepotism favoritism, simply because you're part of the group. So when you say, I no longer believe, or I question what it is that I do believe, you could possibly lose everything. And that's why a lot of people reach out to me who are still the majority of my followers are, if it's still the same, are still in church. They inbox me secretly. So I know what they are dealing with, and a lot of people are just scared to lose. You talk about that cost.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Yeah, I can totally relate to that as many others can as well, and just that feeling of this is your identity, right? This is who you are. This is you, your whole community is within the church. Yeah, and it almost to just kind of a flip of the coin there, where it almost gives you this like elitist mentality. Like this is us, and everyone out there is just evil. They're all going to hell. And yeah, you want to reach them, you want to convert them, but whatever, you're not gonna lose sleep over it, right? Right. And when you start to question what you've been taught, and then you're shun from that community, you have to figure out who you are as a person, even like when you get out. For me, it was like my entire paradigm had shattered. And that is a hard place to be, especially when you don't have anyone else. But I was just determined that I am no longer going to live a lie. I'm no longer going to live with these questions if I have to live in this environment where I'm being fake. I'm being a hypocrite. I'm like the very person I hate. I don't like hypocrites, and I had to get out of that environment. And honestly, now I can say the grass is greener, but it took a while to get here.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

And you know what I found in talking to like a lot of people is that there are our our brains are wired differently depending on who we are. And there are some people who are more susceptible to indoctrination than the other. And we have science behind that. One of the things that kind of makes me smirk and smile, and I love my community. I love all I love people, don't get me wrong. I want to say this too. I don't identify, okay, say I'm agnostic. When people ask, okay, what are you? So they they reach out and it's secretly because there's they are still in these places where they feel they don't have a voice, but yet because of tradition, there's a lot of fear there as well. And so if I do leave, where do I go? You know, deconstruction. I mean that whole process is like, what do I pray to? Is it's very scary.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

I mean, just just with like the lack of community when you get out, you until you find your people, of course. But like you're losing everything, really.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

I love my community because we're honest. You sound like myself. I would tell people and they say, Well, why you don't believe anymore? Why didn't you just stay or whatever? I said, Because I was too much of an honest man to continue in something I knew was not true. I would not participate in all of the electrics anymore. But you have some who they need a little assistance, or there are some who cannot break away from in their minds all that they know. And it's too scary to even consider what if I'm wrong. It's a very, very tough scenario.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Yeah. And I've heard people say to me, they have that safety net of, well, if I'm right though, then I'm going to heaven. I'm not going to hell. But if I'm wrong, then whatever. Right?

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Right. Yeah. That's uh, and yeah, I think it might that might be the Occam's razor perspective. But what I say is like, it's real easy, right? When I was a believer, I never feared any other religions, hell or God. As a matter of fact, I believe that they were all false. I was atheist to all other gods except mine. And so that's how I I look at that scenario. Like you say, well, Sean, it's best that you believe something than nothing, because what if you're wrong? Wrong about which religion, which one pick from the thousands and thousands, you get what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 12:24

So uh over time, and so yeah, yeah, and it's like, oh, well, they base it off of well, we're our religion is based off the Bible. If you actually look at the Bible and the inception of the Bible, where there was a council of men in Rome with in what was it, 325 AD that decided what books were gonna be in this Bible, 66 books, and the other ones they just threw out. Like, we don't need those. Like, how do we even know that the truth is contained in the Bible? You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Yeah, exactly. And that's where cognitive dissonance and and confirmation bias comes in and is all fear-based. Um, because what I tell folk is I can't prove that Spider-Man is real by using Marvel comic book. I must look outside of Marvel comic book to take evidence of our observable reality and then add it up with what I read about Spider-Man to see if it's true scientifically. And so I tell folk, because they they would say, Well, the Bible is true. How do you know it's true? Because it says it's true. And so we try to introduce them to what is called a circular argument. You know, that's what they're doing. And you need to look outside of the Bible to verify the Bible. And so that's when I went back to school. I took some courses, Old and New Testament, ancient Jewish history, some other courses. And I learned that my religion that I didn't want to call a religion then, I said it was a relationship. I sounded just like the average evangelical. I realized that that's when the house of cards fell, when I found that my religion was just one of many and how the Bible was constructed, and that I was a person at that point in time, up until then, of faith. And I believe what I believe by faith because it wasn't facts. And when I got the facts, it was both devastating and liberating.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

Yeah. You know, Sean, somebody could be sitting here listening. Maybe they're still in church, they're questioning a few things, but they're saying, Oh, what there's the answer right there. Sean went to a secular university and learned about religion. So that's why he doesn't believe anymore, right? Because they're gonna indoctrinate you and the religions of the world and all of that. And so they might be saying that. What would you say to somebody who's listening right now that might be thinking that?

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Well, the great thing about that is I went from faith to believing in myself. Studying world religion simply opened me up to human behavior and showed me that throughout the world there is religious beliefs and it will probably continue. And uh, simply because there are religious beliefs does not make those beliefs true. And simply because maybe a particular religion is traditional in my family does not mean that it is true. And so there was no indoctrination, but there was a scrutinizing of the documents that we call scripture that I believed was the breathed upon word of God. It was just critical thought, a critical literary analogy.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

We're just being critical about what we're reading with thinking while we're reading. So when we get to the part that says, and the serpent said unto the woman, I could look up at you and you can look at me and say, We know that's not real, you know. And so I know, no, there's no indoctrination, but in fact, it was the reverse. Education helped to reverse the indoctrination because I was told what to think initially. And through education, I learned more so how to think. And that set me free, so to speak, in my mind from ideas that are totally against everything that we know is real. And so, no, I was not indoctrinated. It's not, oh, you were given something else to believe. No, not at all. I had the opportunity to do what I never did as a Christian, and that was scrutinize my own book. And when that happened, you're looking at the uh result.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Yeah, which is so important, critical thinking, right? I mean, we're taught in church you you don't question though, you gotta believe it by faith. And um, but you said something at the beginning of that question where you said, I believed in my, I then believed in myself. And it perked my ears up because we were taught you don't believe in yourself because the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, who could know it, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

That's what you're taught. You don't you can't trust yourself, you can't trust your God-given intuition, you can't trust any of that. So if somebody heard you say that and they questioned that as well, because we're also taught, like, if you believe in yourself, that's kind of like a almost a satanic mindset, right? Because Satan is more like just about you and pride and believing in yourself.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

All the things we're taught are bad. Well, I've got to do that.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

What would you say to somebody who's questioning that?

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Oh, I would love this one. What mother out there, while you're at the game and your son is about to attempt to score the winning touch down or what have you, would yell out, you can't do it. Don't believe in yourself. It is ridiculous. You would you know you're laughing along with me because the thought itself is like, no way. And so I say, when it comes to the God that you believe in, if you cannot emulate this God in your life, in your uh community, and your community is better because of it, then maybe you need to reconsider what you believe. Because not to believe in yourself. Imagine being in a love relationship with someone who would talk to you in such a way. You're nothing. No matter what you do, you're filthy rags, you're nothing without me. As a matter of fact, there's nothing good in you. And the only way that you can be worth my time and to come into my kingdom is to take on another identity because you're that pathetic. That's abusive language and ideas.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

And that actually resonates with me because I was in an abusive marriage. My first marriage was an arranged marriage through the church, and that kind of rhetoric is what I was given in my marriage and also grew up with. You know, you're taught as a young person that you are worth nothing. And I think even more so, the women and girls in the way that I was raised, we were raised independent fundamental Baptists, and it was very, very strict towards the females. And essentially, all the responsibility was put on us if if a man or a boy lusted after us, stumbled, had an issue, it was our fault. And so there was a lot of pressure put on us, but also at the same time, we're not worth anything. Like it's like, well, if we're not worth anything, then why are why is so much weight being put on us? Like responsibility to keep everyone above board.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

I said something that was very controversial. I'm I'm gonna say it right now, and it was a comparison. I have a background in law enforcement, right? So I know a lot about domestic violence. And so I compare and contrast the MO of an abuser in a domestic violence scenario with the gospel, and that drives people crazy. Now, let me explain because I think you're gonna understand, and the listeners probably will too. In domestic violence, what men tend to do when they want to abuse is they first come as well, of course, we call wolf in sheep's clothing, they are very, very charismatic. They say all the right things, they tend to maybe be handsome or maybe be that image of a man that you desired. And so in the beginning, there is all of this uh love bombing, right? Let's switch over to Christianity and the gospel message. In the beginning, there is this wooing of God loves you so much. You're the apple of his eye. He gave, and they would use language like gave his only begotten son, psychological uh manipulation. And they're wooing you and you when you first come into the church, it's like you have this new family. They treat you better than your own family. And it's like, wow. And so you feel wooed. And then there is the next step. And after you are wooed in an abusive situation, uh, the MO of the abuser is to get you separated from your family and those that they know will protect you as soon as possible. So they isolate you. And so moving back over to the church, the very first thing that I was taught was to separate myself from the ungodly. And so I totally separated myself from both sides of my family. I moved to another state. I was very active, but totally lost all connection. Right now we move over to domestic violence again, the next step. So I have wooed you in. Now I have uh separated you from those who can protect you. Now begins the psychological, emotional, uh, and in many cases, physical abuse, but it goes like this. Now that I've I have to convince you that you are nothing without me. I have to get you dependent upon me. And also, your autonomy is going to be taken away. You're no longer, you can't. I couldn't hang with my uh cousin who I love because he drank. Uh, you go back over to domestic violence, you know, once again, that separation. You can't be with your sister, you can't hang with that coworker, you know, it's total control. And then it begins to change. And now, so when we talk about the gospel, you wooed in God loves you so much. But if you do not believe, okay, and in domestic violence scenarios, it's like if you don't do what I say, there are consequences, right? But what do, and I've heard this over and over again by guys who went to jail after abusing their wives, but I love her, and she would say it too. And I'm gonna get there in a minute because we're still gonna compare and contrast with the gospel and Christian mentality. He says, I love her. And so you love her, but you beat her, right? Well, when you look at the God of the Bible, and you don't really find God talking about he loves the world so much, that's Christians talking. But when we look, we see some idea of a rainbow, and I'm not gonna hurt anybody anymore. But then we find right after, you're right back at the same behavior. And so here's the deal to leave him is terrifying. And so many women stay out of terror because they don't know uh he's gonna hurt me. That's one. And then here is the one that people don't talk about. There is this term called Stockholm syndrome that can occur when uh someone has been abused and this dynamic has taken place in a certain way for a specific time, and they will begin to blame themselves and defend the abuser. And so I found that so many times. And so when I look back over at the gospel, I saw my goodness, look at the correlation because I am nothing without you. You lured me in with wonderful language of how my life would get better. You have this hole in your heart because they prey on people's pain. And you lure me in and you're telling me to separate myself from these evil people, and I do all of that stuff, and I'm I'm full of all this. Oh, and you also start financially abusing me. And so at the end of the day, I start to feel something is wrong. But if you find out, because in church there are people assigned prayer warriors or partners or accountability partners or ministers, they will knock on your door, text you, call you. If they suspect a thing, maybe you missed a Sunday, maybe you missed a Bible class, maybe you missed a tithe or offering. And so now the threat is if I leave, I'm in danger. That is the same with the gospel message. If you don't believe, you're damned already, and guess what? It's your fault. The gaslighting comes in later on about verse 18 and 20, because they quote John 3:16. And it says, if you don't believe, you're damned already. And you know why? Because you're evil, because you like darkness. So I speak against that. I say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Is that myself and my friend who's interviewing me right now, we're too much of an honest person to know that what we participated in is in fact not true, and not just that, but damaging. We will not participate, and yes, we will tell others what we found out to help save as many people as possible from going through that. So the the gospel message is a facade, it is it's like it's akin to domestic violence, it totally strips you of your own cognitive autonomy. You become this robot who simply repeats, but he loves me. Once again, talking about that Stockholm syndrome. And so these are those things that we talk about a lot on my channel, and this is what I'm passionate about because it happened to me. And most people that do what we do, usually I found, and you give me your opinion, that a lot of them were devout. They were not like just casual Christians, like these are people who really believed, and that's why they're passionate about uh deconstructing and deconstruction now. Is that your case? Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Oh, yeah. I I was raised a pastor's daughter. And then after I got into my first marriage, the arranged marriage, I he was a youth pastor. I was the youth pastor's wife. Like I wanted to be in full-time ministry. I didn't think that there was really any other thing that I could do in life other than be a pastor's wife or, you know, some kind of full-time ministry position, right? That's like the highest calling you can possibly do. So, yes, I was very much entrenched in this. And, you know, Sean, while you were talking and I was making this, I was uh picturing the correlation just in my own life of the domestic violence that I endured in my first marriage and and this gospel message. I've heard all of that, but you made the correlation and it was just so profound to me. And I started thinking about how they always say, Well, God loves us unconditionally. That doesn't sound unconditional. That sounds like there's a lot of stipulations.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

I mean it's hell, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Yeah. And you know, I when I became a parent, I started thinking about okay, the Bible says our heavenly father wants even better gifts for us or better things for us than we do as earthly parents. And I'm like, I would never expect my daughter to be punished for the rest of her life, much less eternity, right? For some doing something wrong or going against what I taught her. I would never expect that. I would never do that to her, right? Because I love her. I want the best for her. And it just didn't add up. It just never added up to me. And I think where I'm at now, and maybe I don't like putting labels on myself. I don't want to call myself an agnostic. It's a that is still a little like I don't know. Like I don't want to go.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Almost like you're doing the same thing again. Like almost not, I don't want to go at the labels and titles.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Yeah. And I just I don't want to like put myself in a box. You know what I mean? I'm very open. I'm still, I believe I've deconstructed from Christianity as we know it, but I'm also, you know, I'm kind of on the fence of like, what well, what is God then? Right? Right. I do believe there is a higher power out there, but what does that look like? What does that mean for me? Right. And so that's where I'm at. That's kind of And you know what?

SPEAKER_00 29:02

That's exactly where I am. But here's what it's done for me. Here's the wonderful thing. And I have totally deconverted from Christianity and from all religions. But here's the wonderful thing. Not knowing what does this, if a God exists. First of all, how do we define it? What is it? What is they? He, she, them, they, it. We don't know, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

But here's what's so beautiful about that, right? In its exploration, it's uh open-mindedness, it's appreciation. I like cats now. So I'm looking at my cat over there, and there was a time that I would never have a cat. So it's freedom to sit down and talk with someone who's totally different from me. They may believe something totally different. I found that Satanists are some of the coolest people in the world. Then I found the joke was on us that many of them, the majority, do not believe in the supernatural, like cosplay. And it's like, ha ha ha, we do this because we know it incites a reaction, but we know that the devil is not real. I didn't know that. Okay. Interesting. Yes, do you not know that blow your mind? I'm like, oh my god, y'all are so freaking cool. It was like, no, they know I'm talking about all of their rituals and stuff. What they're doing is, and I have a chapter in my book called Uh Speaking in Other Tongues, and it's about taking back your power. In other words, you guys fear me because I have hoops in my okay, you you want to fear that? Well, as a matter of fact, I actually was thinking about getting one in my nose. Oh, you know what I was thinking? Uh uh dyeing my hair pink. Oh, you know what else? And then what happens is people, and I love it when they're the authentic cells, right? And so when it comes to I too, when I look at, I'm very suspicious of the emotion of love. Love, sometimes I ask myself, why love? Right? It's like, and I'm I I don't want to sound nutty, so I'm gonna try to explain what I mean. Why love? The feelings that I get, I want to save butterflies, right? I'm from the South Bronx, New York. Grew up, I used to walk over dead bodies to get in my building. Then I had almost a 20-year law enforcement career. I seen a lot of stuff, but I'm gonna plant flowers that's gonna save the butterflies and do my part to save them. And then I'm very interested in saving honeybees as well. Like it's been on my mind. Listen to what I'm about to say. When I was a Christian, I wouldn't think that way because I felt that all of this is gonna pass away. Yeah, that all of this meant nothing. We're just pilgrims passing through, and everything was about those 66 books and going out and bugging people to death about Jesus. And so where I am now, I do believe in a higher power for my suspicion of the emotion of love and how it causes us to behave, our universe just like you and I we came up with a freaking cell phone. Human beings to me are the closest thing to a God idea. You know, of course, we made up the God idea and duh, right? It makes total sense. I'm on a cell phone talking, and you can hear me, I see and hear you. People around the world will see and hear, and we're in different locations. I grew up on a cartoon called The Jetsons. And in the Jetsons, there was George Jetson, he had a boss named Mr. Spacely, and they would look at one another on the screen. I was little like, oh my gosh, that would be so cool, but that's impossible. That can never you get how the brain can't conceive that. But look where we are now. When I watch my kids play video games, like I get goosebumps, they think I'm crazy sometimes. I say, kids, y'all don't understand how happy I am to be alive to see this. I said, one of my first video games was an Atari 20 something hundred, and I said, basketball was two stick figures and a square square ball, and it would just go do and that's it. I said, I can walk by you guys and look, and you guys are playing a game that looks so real. If I didn't take a second take, I thought it was like the live game with humans, and so I say that to say deconstructing has been the best thing in the world for me. And I remember a time in my life when I thought the gospel was the greatest message ever told. And that's what caused me to turn my back on everything and everyone because nothing is greater than this. I thought whom the sun sets free is free. Indeed, I was wrong. I'm free now, and I look at believers, and here's the scary part, and this is why I talk about religious psychosis and brainwashing and things like that, because I can look into their eyes and see that they really believe that I'm sad or angry or have a spirit that's making me behave this way. And it's like, oh my gosh, that's theater. That's theater. I gotta do a movie. That is theater. Uh you know what I mean? Where you can't look in their eyes, they really believe it. Because here's a scary question. Here's a very scary question. And I heard Christians answer yes. If you believe that God told you to unalive your child, would you do it? And Christians have said yes, if they believe it was God. That's scary. That's scary.

SPEAKER_02 34:05

It is scary. It is a psychosis.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:09

Yeah. In interesting, you said that you were freer and happier once you deconstructed. And I totally resonate with that as well. And that you have a greater appreciation for just life, everyday things, and people. And when I was in the church, I was taught, oh, well, you're saved, you're going to heaven. Like you basically have a free pass, right? So you have no motivation to be a good human being and to consider other people other than than yourself. So you're like, I'm going to heaven, I don't have to worry about this guy or stealing from that guy or screwing over that person, or you know, you don't have to worry about it. So that's right. It's that again, that elitist attitude that I'm going to do.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

Which is a breeding ground, which is a breeding ground for predators.

SPEAKER_02 35:02

Oh, absolutely. A breeding ground for predators and teachers. Yes. And that's why abuse is so rampant, I think, not just for children in the churches, but also domestic violence situations, because these men have set themselves up on this pedestal, like, well, I'm the man of the house, and God said that I'm, you know, superior to the woman. And so they have this ideology. And a lot of that comes from Paul's teachings as well.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

Um, which is so toxic. Like Paul's teaching is so I'm just like it was unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

As a woman, uh, it blows my mind that they still sit in church.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

And the Pauline epistles are what the church, that's like the church's blueprint on how to raise your children, how to be a good spouse, how to do this and that. And it's like never married, never got children. And also, he murdered Christians for a living and then came up with a story saying he was converted. But like now he's the poster child of Christianity. Like, that's like Hitler becoming the poster child for the Jewish community. Like makes sense, John.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

It happened so many times. I'm laughing because I know freaking infamous prisoners, right? Who went, you know, they murdered people, did all types of crazy stuff, and then went to jail and found the Lord and start writing. So did Jeffrey Dahmer. Writing children's books. Listen, oh my gosh. The religious psychosis, okay, is so real. Speaking on that, when I was in my early stages of Christianity, I used to watch uh TBN a lot. Okay. And this woman, oh, I can't remember her name, but she had Was it Tammy Faye Baker? Well, no, not the preachers. I know all of them. I know I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

I just remember her as a kid and her mascara, like running.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

And it's like when I look back at that, it's like, why can't you look at Jan? It's oh, just look at her. It's like Jan Crouch. This is scam all day, but I couldn't see it. But um, there was this woman who was on death row. She's dead now. And I was with TBN. I used to send in donations and stuff like that to try to stop her execution. And this woman went on, she was very violent, and she hacked some people to death with an axe on her, and she was high and just, I mean, but then she's singing the Lord, and she just loves the Lord, and she's not scared to die and everything. And Christians around the world, including myself, were saying no, totally disrespecting the families who lost their loved ones. You notice how Christians say things like, God is good, and you say, Well, why? Because my son was in a bad car accident, three cars, and he had minor scuffs. What about the other people? They didn't make it. Ain't God good? Wow, wow. And so, yeah, isn't that something?

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Yeah, so God allowed the other people to die and let your son live because you're special, loves you more. Again, it's that elitist mindset. Yes, yeah. You're special, but you're unworthy and you're trash and you're filthy rags.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Absolutely. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

Remember your place.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Yes. That's loving God.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

So I want to get into your book that you're writing. I am excited to talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Oh my gosh, me too.

SPEAKER_02 38:31

Yes. Okay, so you and I kind of talked offline about this a little bit. So you had mentioned um essentially it's about cognitive autonomy. So explain what that means for those listening, and then let's get into the nitty-gritty.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Outstanding. And so the name of my ebook, and it is available, by the way, in my link in my bio on TikTok.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Awesome. Because I want to put that in the show notes.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Yes, please do. Please do. I'm so excited. And it's actually a couple of ebooks. I have another one called uh Stop Tithing. And that is the devil is not in your finances, it's your pastor. And I go, Yeah, yeah. I get very, very, very personal. I pull no punches. I let you into my personal life. I gave over 50 that uh tithe over 50,000. I gave more than 50,000, and I struggle financially my entire Christian life, entire. Okay. And while I was in church looking really nice, and we had our hands up, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:27

Yeah, it's more important to tithe than it is to eat, Sean. You know this.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

You have to tithe first, and then if you have money left, or you can feed your family.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

You must. And so, yes, and so the name of the ebook is called The Unlearning Lab, and it's a 10-step guide to reclaiming your power or your cognitive autonomy, and what that is dealing with is uh it's just point blank. We were brainwashed, we didn't have a right to think for ourselves. And so when you deconstruct, and I can remember when I started the language, for example, it was like I was so used to saying certain things. So I'm blessed, and how, hey, how are you, mother? And and uh uh, you know, the devil is a liar, and I still fight with that phrase right there in my brain. But anyhow, uh many people who are taking this walk and gonna go on this walk are going to experience some similar feelings and difficulties. And one of those will be just simply reclaiming your mind because many of us we didn't learn to trust ourselves before becoming indoctrinated. So just learning to, you know what? Let's think over some times in your life where you felt the way, you perceived a way, and then you didn't trust yourself. You remember that? And it's a reintroduction to you because the church damaged us and taught us that we were not to think highly of ourselves more highly than we ought to, and that we were like filthy rags. And so it took me about four years. And what I did was first, I went through my own therapy, I went through my own process and still going through that process that I love. Uh, and what I learned was praying did not change anything as a Christian, and it sure was not going to change anything as a non-believer. I needed resources, I needed a robust plan that I can follow and help me to regain my mind. And in my case, it was more than regaining, it was me finding myself. Who am I? That's why I'm so excited. I love cats. Like, what's next, right? I'm about to take a trip out the country. I'm just about to get my passport. I'm 54. I've never been anywhere. You get what I'm saying? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

I totally get what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Yes, you get it. I want to go to Mardi Gras. I'm gonna go one day. I want to go to a gay prize seller. I want to represent, you know why? Because, number one, and I apologize so many times. I don't do it as much as I used to, but I always apologize to the LGBTQ community because when I was a believer, I was a homophobe. Okay, and I don't want to go too far because we talked about the book, but uh that was the old mindset. And so the unlearning lab, it's all about unlearning the indoctrination and taking back uh your cognitive autonomy.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Oh my gosh, I can't wait to read that book. I can't wait to read both books. Okay, so they're ebooks. So I would get it. Like Kindle or Yes, you can down.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

You go, like I said, go straight to TikTok to my channel, click on the link, and I have all of my material resources right there. You can follow me. All of my social handles are right there in the link in the bio on my TikTok page. And so what it's an instant download, and uh, I made it really, really cheap for everybody, even those people without jobs. And if a person is interested in, and I tell folk, don't get it, like a lot of us. Let me put you this way if you are someone who has gone down that deconstruction journey and you are comfortable in your journey, and uh you're continuing this journey because you know, deconstruction is not just about religion, it's it's just about life, unlearning as many false things as possible, right? And so the book is more so for those individuals who are on that journey. And even if you've been on that journey for a while, but if you can be honest with yourself and you do struggle sometimes, and you just need that reassurance, and not just that, um, you know, there's some really good exercises and questions inside the book. It's not a long read, but it's very effective. But maybe you can find something to help you navigate where you are right now.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

Yeah, I love that. That sounds like an awesome resource.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

So, how can someone start reclaiming their own thoughts without spiraling?

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Yes, yes. The first thing to do is kind of like um we recognize, first of all, that we have not been in control. Okay, we recognize it first. And then we have to address guilt, right? There's a lot to unpack because that's an emotion that you definitely will experience deconstructing. Did I make the right decision? Certain prayers, certain mothers or those influential to you back at the church, you'll have that doubt. And so it's working through the guilt, first of all, realizing that you're okay is finding that safe space and place, understanding that where you are, we have to go all the way back to early childhood development, the brain is amazing. And what happened to you was not your fault, but the good news is you can unlearn it. And so it is a step-by-step process. And the first step is first of all, identifying, being honest with yourself, realizing that I have not been in control of my own thoughts. You desire to, and then you just want to know how. And it starts, like I said, first with acknowledgement and then being willing and then unlearning. Let me give you a practical example. I had said earlier that um words, okay, when you're deconstructing religious jargon can trigger you. And so one of the things that I tell people to have in the book is, okay, let's speak in new tongues, right? So I don't say that, Sean. No, no, no, listen to me. There was a time when I would say, Hey, you know, Kathy, Nancy, whatever, uh, have a blessed day. But instead, I'll say, have a wonderful day. And I mean it when I say it because we, it was like cliche. It was jargon for us. I'm blessed and highly favorite, favorite. Oh, the Lord this, the Lord that. What was the truth? I have a freaking headache, my husband's getting on my nerves. Yeah, you couldn't say it, right? And so it's like taking back power. You determine how you're going to identify how you're going to define terms and words. What do they mean to you? How would you like? All right, let's do this. Instead of saying things like, Oh, I wish or would, say, I choose to. And pause for a minute when you say that. You know what? I choose to, because I'm telling you, my friend, and you know this. I know I'm preaching to the choir. You know, I get emotional. I think about it because when you become indoctrinated and you don't know this until you come out, but you make yourself so small, so small. What could you have possibly accomplished if you really did feel that it was okay to believe in yourself? Like you're excellent at what you do. As a matter of fact, go back to school, you know, get some more training. You are excellent. And it was always, no, it's not me. You see, sports entertainers, they train, they train. I'm a UFC guy, I love MMA. They train, they train, they train, and they knock some guy out, and then they go, No, no, no, no, no, no, no. That was you in the gym. That was you. You understand? Because here's what I say. If you want me to believe that a God, you can pray and become anointed and do exploits, do this. I'm not impressed when someone is receiving treatment and you pray for them and then the cancer goes away. I'm more inclined to believe it was a treatment. So here's how you prove that. You need open heart surgery, and you have two options. One, this option is a surgeon who has a proven track record of your exact type of surgery. Success, he's over 90-95% successful. He's an atheist, though. Okay? He is an atheist. This one over here is a mechanic. Never been to medical school ever. His nails are dirty. He works with engines all day. He's never held a scapel, but he's anointed by God and he believes in prayer. Which one are you gonna choose?

SPEAKER_02 47:56

I know which one I'm choosing.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Come on now. Let's keep it real. Exactly. We know, we know. And so it is about, and I love talking with people because when I say certain, you know, make certain examples like that, it is I love the expression on the face because, oh, here is one. I never thought about this. And once again, it's you're taking your mind back. Come on, we gotta think. You want to judge the ethical implications behind every action? I never judged the ethical implications behind the God of the Bible's actions. Never. It was just he's God. How can I, as a black person, be okay reading Exodus 21, 21 that says, you may beat your slaves, right? And as long as they didn't die within a few days, there was no fine because the Exodus 21-21 says, they are your property. And it went right over my head. My entire, listen, my entire Christian life, which was about 15 years, it wasn't until I began to deconstruct and then read these things and then put the pieces together and look at our ugly history, and which opens up a whole nother conversation for another time when it comes to people in in my particular demographic, right? Because that's what drives your folk, my other friends, crazy about us. Like, if anything, what the hell are y'all doing in church? Like, y'all believe this, you know. But yeah, it's about taking back control and then learning to trust yourself again, redefining words and terms, no longer allowing someone else to define that for you. How do you feel about it? It's like I'm so passionate about people being confident and believing in them and trusting them. Because if you don't trust yourself, I can't trust you. Who can trust you, really? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 49:51

Yeah, totally. How old were you when you became a Christian?

SPEAKER_00 49:55

Oh, wow, that's interesting. So I did not grow up in church. One of my grandmothers went and she never really preached to us, nothing like that. She didn't drink or smoke, but I was never consistently in church until 23 in life circumstances. Uh, and someone preached to me in voila, 1997.

SPEAKER_02 50:16

Okay. So for the listeners, you have Sean, who didn't start going to church, didn't become a Christian or didn't identify as a Christian until 23 years old. And then me, I was born into it. And so you can take these two perspectives, and we're both ending up in the same place where we've deconstructed and our framework has changed. We're discovering ourselves, right? For the first time, and discovering life and the world and all it has to offer.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

And right.

SPEAKER_02 50:49

So I think a lot of times there's might be a misconception for people who are like, Well, you were born into it. That's why, you know, John wasn't born into it, guys. He he was 23, he was an adult when he got into Christianity. Exactly. So it it really, I mean, it doesn't matter when it just matters when you get out.

SPEAKER_00 51:10

Yes. And you know, I'm sitting here giggling, like they just listen, believers. I'm sure this will get into the ears of believers out there. That you know, the joy of the Lord is your strength and all that. Let me tell you something. I have never, and I mean this after a son battling with stage four brain cancer, after a divorce, after 30 years, and of course the church would say, that's why that happened to him. Listen to me, I'm more happy now than I ever been. And it's like, Sean, why? Oh my gosh. First of all, I'm thankful for what I used to criticize social media. If it hadn't been for platforms like a TikTok, I would have never met you and other great people. So I'm so thankful for that. But I have true joy, you know, for anybody who thinks, oh no, no, you need the Lord. I mean, because they're very adamant about that. Listen, I used to walk around with my Bible. My ex-wife would tell you this: if we had somewhere to go and I drove two miles away and realized I left my Bible home, I'm turning around. I can be late. It don't matter. I'm going all the way back and I'm going to get it. I didn't watch TV or nothing. You know, I was very, very devout. My entire life was Jesus and work. Jesus and work. And my poor wife was dragged along. And so um now the joy once again comes from that freedom. I realize, and there's nothing wrong with me saying this now because it used to be guilt with that. I am the captain of my own ship. I can make a decision right now to change the trajectory of my life right now. I can do that. And I am accountable and uh responsible. And so that's freedom. You're not free when you're given your thoughts. You're given in whatever your pastor tells you. That's not freedom. And that is the one thing that I'm still studying, and that is believers' disdain for freedom while saying they're free. But when you see other free people, it bothers them is because they're not, they're in bondage right here.

SPEAKER_02 53:13

Oh, but uh, there's liberty in Christian, right?

SPEAKER_00 53:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

And also, um, another verse popped into my head while you were saying this too, the one about uh the peace of God passes all understanding. Shall keep your hearts and minds in the right.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 53:32

And I remember when I was in church and I was in full-time ministry and I was still in that cult mentality, because let's just call it what it is. I mean, it actually is a cult mentality. I felt more anxious and more depressed and less peace than I ever felt after I deconstructed.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

Absolutely. I was in the supermarket and uh a song came over the air, and you know, I'm just shopping and I started to pat my foot and I was kind of rocking, and immediately I stopped in a panic and repented. God forgive me because I'm patting my foot to the secular music.

SPEAKER_02 54:10

It's appealing to the flesh.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

That's not freedom. And have you ever wondered this? And this is one of the things that got me kicked out of my church, too. I got kicked out because of this.

SPEAKER_02 54:18

So if Jesus died- You got kicked out of your church?

SPEAKER_00 54:22

Yeah, my pastor told me if you go find another.

SPEAKER_02 54:24

Oh, okay. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. I thought there was something else.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

In my stop tithing ebook, I'll talk about it. He says to go find a church that don't tithe and go there. And I was an avid tither. But listen to this. Here was my thing. My thing was if Jesus died for our sins and we have songs, we sing about it, he paid it all. We always do. Why is it that we have to live every day in this fear, constantly hearing messages about you better not, you better not? If our sin, past, present, and future, were cast in the sea of forgetfulness and all the stuff that we were told. And then I would say, and this is the one that got me kicked out, I said, uh, Pastor, do you believe that if God curses a man, that man can make it to heaven? If you were still a Christian and I asked you that question, what would you say? I said, Do you believe that if God Himself curses a man, can that man inherit the kingdom? Yes or no?

SPEAKER_02 55:16

I would say no.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

Thank you. Okay, let's keep it straight. God himself, from a believer's perspective, if God has cursed a man, that man is not gonna make it into the kingdom because who is gonna override God's decision? So my pastor also agreed. He says, Yes, I I agree. I said, Well, we're going to have to do it differently now when we make altar calls. I said, Because what we're gonna have to do is when we tell them to come down and lift up their hands and confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in their heart, I said, we're gonna have to tap them on the shoulder and say, Oh, wait, and we got to add an addendum that says, but if you don't bring your 10%, God is gonna curse you. We're gonna have to take back that blessing of salvation. You see how it makes no sense? That's totally contradictory. And that's what I told my pastor. And I was a big giver. It wasn't like I was one of those who came and I had a problem with tithing and giving, and I didn't give. No, it wasn't it. I was broke one day on my way to church, and I saw a homeless guy. And I asked who I believe was God at that time. God, you will curse me if and all I had was my tithe. If I feed this homeless man, and I it bothered me so much, Jim, that I went on my own independent study within the Bible. I didn't go outside of it on the tithe, and I found everywhere the tithe, tithe, tenth tithing was mentioned in the entire Bible in many, many months, and it was conclusive. I was like, oh my God, it was scary, but I was like, I knew I wasn't crazy, it didn't cause me to leave God. No, I knew that my pastor was preaching false doctrine at that point, and the majority of the church was as well. And so I was free to feed people. I was like, oh my goodness, I'm free. If I got a bill, Sean, pay it. Pay it, it's okay. Because I will let my lights go out. Do you understand? There were you and I was not touching the tithe, it didn't matter. And so, with that being said, do you know all of those years, and here's the dangers of what church can do to you? All those years I tithe faithfully, but my friend Jen, all those years I was married, and I'm not as I'm not ashamed to say this because we're all gonna die one day, and we got to stop acting and putting a front out there in front of the world is about being vulnerable. You understand? And I gotta tell the truth. Married for 30 years in church all that time, tithe and gay for all those years. I never saw in my savings account just saved$2,000. Never. All of those years, raising six children, risking my life minimum 12 hours a day. I would get off work at six in the morning after working from 6 p.m. to six in the morning, and I have to be to church to open the doors at nine for Sunday school. And then I have to stay in church because my pastor's long-winded, and we're not gonna be done until about three, and then I gotta go back to work at six to go protect people. And I did it that so many years. Nothing to show for it. But I believed. And so with that being said, on this side, and even dealing with my son's stage four brain cancer, someone would say, people actually told me, You wait, Sean, until something happens in your life that's so bad you're gonna need God. I said it did. I know what it sounds like to hear a child screaming, and on the inside, it does something to you, and the morphine can't help. And then you hear his mother begging God, and then we hear in the morning that the baby got their wings. You know what that means?

SPEAKER_02 58:53

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 58:53

It's just that's uh our saying in St. Jude's they got their wings. We have to figure out some type of silver lining. We have to, because this we don't understand why these kids are dying. Don't tell me about prayer. You see how personal that is to me? And when someone says Jesus healed my child, I have to take a deep breath and say, What kind of God do you believe in? Because let me explain to you what you just told me. First of all, he has friends who didn't make it. I never told him his best friend in the hospital died on his birthday, and we were supposed to supposed to go to movies together that day. And his mother had to call me, and as soon as I heard her voice, I knew that the pain. And so my son, I couldn't tell him because part of his his treatment and him getting better was his mental, emotional health. So he didn't want to stress. So here is how they think that God heals. My son had to go through an extreme amount of chemotherapy, heavy doses of radiation to the place that he woke up blind twice. He's my baby son. All my kids are healthy. I've always played sports, been a healthy person. We've never thought this would happen. Okay? We would empathize with people when we would watch it on television. It was, oh my gosh, I feel for that family. You never think, right? It would happen to you. And so he goes through horrific treatment. I had to feed my son through his stomach, had to go in his brain multiple times, multiple spine surgeries to remove the tumor. And if you talk to him right there, yeah, he's pretty short for 17, and he got it when he was seven. And so when I would say that, they'd say, Praise Jesus. I said, Wait, wait, right there. You don't go praising old Jesus right now because my son may never have kids. My son, my dad is like 6'4, and he will never reach maybe 5'3. My son probably will be on medication for the rest of his life. My son has many complications because of the effects of the radiation chemotherapy, which yes, it kills cancerous cells, but it also destroys good cells. Okay? So people who are dealing with cancer, it is rough. And so I get very, very bothered by people saying prayer works and that God healed my son. Because if that's the type of God you believe in, I hate your God. So I could never ever serve it. It would destroy me because I'm telling the truth. And that's what I tell to Christians. What type of coward must I become to believe in your God, knowing what not just me, but other people around the world are dealing with right now. While we're talking right now, my heart breaks because kids and families are being bombed while I can turn and I can drink my water. I can talk on this mic. You understand? We can monetize, we can do all this stuff, but people dying in this in the name of this God, you think this God got your back. And the elephant in the room is the absence of this perceived and believed God.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:55

No, I appreciate you sharing that. I I'm really glad to hear that he made it. Um, I can't even imagine going through that as a parent. I can't even imagine. And just thinking in terms of you're his father, you did everything in your power to protect your child and to get your child to health. And in terms of like Heavenly Father and Jesus, and he's just like, yep, just go to the cross. Like, nope, I'm not gonna let you have a pass on this one. You're gonna do this, die for all of these strangers, you know. I can't imagine doing that as a parent. Um, and then I was thinking too, when you said there's people who are at war in other countries and you're sitting here drinking your water. And I often think about how we were always preached at in the churches here, like, oh, we're so blessed that we were born in the United States, the good old United States of America, and we're just this privileged people. And I would think as a kid, like, well, yeah, thank God, but what about a kid that's my age that lives in Saudi Arabia or you know, in the Congo or whatever that and they were raised Muslim or they were raised another religion, they're just gonna die and go to hell? This is what we were taught.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:26

Yes, you know, the Christianity definitely destroys empathy, definitely is because it's like, no, we're good, we're good. It's called we call it my four and no more. We're good, right? Yeah, that's horrible. That's when you uh there was this doctrine preached by uh Bishop T. D. Jakes, and the doctrine was faith is not fair, faith isn't fair. And when you think about that, that's a hard, in other words, he was as believers, we're favored by God. So I'm sorry if my favor offends you. So, but here's how disgusting that is. I have three daughters. So let's say I come home and I only feed two of them. That one, you already know, is a few things that's gonna happen. First of all, what kind of dad am I? And then the one is gonna look at the other two, like, why isn't dad feeding me? And the other two is gonna do like church folk and say, Well, maybe you just don't have a relationship with him. And then, dad, why are you not feeding me? That would be evil. That's just freaking evil. Yeah, I'm a dad, I'm feeding all of my children. And see, that's another thing that I tell people if you're fearful of this idea of hell, if you're a parent, just think, what is it? You remember when you first had the child and you looked at that child and you saw you, an extension of you, for the first time in your life, that feeling will nothing can compare to it. What did that baby, when you looked at that child, what do you think that child would have to grow to do for you to unalign it? What does it have to do for you to just throw it in the water and drown it? It's the to think of it as you can't, you don't want to, but this is the behavior of the God of the Bible. So I ask folk, please read it critically one time, read it as a spectator, read it as a 10-year-old, like for the first time. And by the time you get to and the serpent said unto the woman. Oh, yeah, if you don't know that you're in Narnia, at that point, I can't help you.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:27

Right. And also, from my recollection, the serpent is the only one that told the truth in that story.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:34

Yes, it's a truth teller, you get it, and it's amazing. That's why I love art because many great films were made off of the whole idea of the villain was actually right. They had a point. Listen to the a lot of times we look at the hero, but the villain has a story, and we look at the serpent in the garden. He is the one or the it that told the truth. He said, You shall not surely die. He knows in a day that you eat their. Up, you'll be like him on good and evil. And that's exactly what happened. And get what were we told? Oh, they die spiritually. That's not in the Bible. They just pull it out their butts.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:10

Yep. Because there is no other explanation. So they have to come up with it. Before we wrap up, I just one final question. So if somebody who is currently kind of tiptoeing into their deconstruction, the cracks of the foundation are starting to crumble. What is your number one piece of advice for that person?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:33

My number one piece of advice is going to address that feeling of fear of what do I pray to? What's true? Okay. At that very moment, my hope for that person and for all you guys listening is to understand that you were indoctrinated. And one of the things that can really help you is what helped me, and that was education. I started with Old and New Testament. I simply learned the truth behind how all of that came to be. I also learned a little bit about the brain through psychology and neurology, understanding that we are pattern seekers. This is important to know. That is totally normal. We have to learn to control it, but we seek patterns. We both can look up into the sky and Jenna say, ooh, a rabbit. I said, Now it looks like a carrot to me. Right? We're pattern seekers. And so I would tell them they are about to embark on a journey of education. Oh, and buckle up because you're going to learn about the brain, and it's amazing. Okay. I would say that's where you start, and to immerse yourself in Christian atheist debates. Let me tell you why I say that. I never heard an opposing view when I was a believer because my entire circle was Christian. And so no one was going to speak against Christianity. So I didn't hear opposing views. And so the benefit of listening to, let's say, like I have a link in my bio, The Atheist Experience with Matt Dillahoney, who I love. The benefit of listening to debates is you get the opportunity to hear yourself arguing which you thought was a solid argument, and someone else rebutting that. And it will open up your eyes, like I thought I had a good answer all these years because there is a such thing as evidence, but then you have bad evidence. You learn about the standard of evidence. What convinces one person may not convince the next person. These things, uh logical fallacies, I mean, immerse yourself into what we were told not to touch, philosophy, which is beautiful. How do we know what we know? Right? This is important. And so those are the first steps. I would uh immediately start with education. I know I said a lot, so I'll break it down and condense it. I would start with first because the thought is going to come, what do I pray to? Okay. I would start with a video called Why We Believe in Gods. That's very important because where you are is the indoctrination, okay, the house of cards have fallen apart, and it's almost like slaves after emancipation. Where do I go? Okay. And so with that being said, that is actually a good place. And one of the first things I tell people to do is follow me because I'm a member and partner with the American Humanist Association. And we this is what we do. We provide resources, counseling, plug you into whatever you need to help you along this journey because it can be a quiet, painful one. Because who can I talk to? And I didn't realize that there were other people out there like myself, especially Jen in the black community, you're better off saying you're a serial killer than saying you don't believe in Jesus. Okay. And so begin to educate yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:54

Yeah, I totally agree with that. Another thing I would piggyback on that would be to get out of the environment you're in. Absolutely. Because if you're still entrenched in the church and you're hearing this rhetoric day in and day out, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:11

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:12

It's like you mentioned earlier on in this episode where once you get out, then you can see clearer.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:20

And you're going to start to look at the way that you were thinking, and you're going to start to say, okay, that doesn't make sense. This doesn't make sense. But if you're still entrenched in that and you're surrounded in it day in and day out, then it's going to be harder for you to deconstruct.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:36

Oh, can I add something, Jen? I'm glad you broke that. For sure. That means everything in the world, as far as your environment is like, of course, you must. And really, if you if you don't, you're going to be miserable because to remain in that environment and knowing that you're internally deconstructing, you're going to consistently reduce yourself to fit into spaces you really don't want to be in anymore. Go ahead and separate yourself and get out of those spaces.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:59

I appreciate you coming on today. And I'm sure the listeners are going to love this episode. I'm going to put everything in the show notes, but for those listening who are lazy and maybe don't go to show notes, um, how can people find you on social media?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:14

Yes, please go directly to TikTok and you can just Google my name, Sean Towers. Okay. If um any page that pops up doesn't have a whole bunch of followers and so it ain't me. Um, you'll know what that is me. Just find me Sean Towers on TikTok. And all of my social handles are right there inside my bio. I wanted to throw this out there. Maybe we have a discussion about this. I want to talk about race relations because at the end of the day, we need to get along and all that stuff. I want to talk about our relationship in particular when it comes to white and black folk, right? Listen to this Christianity, religion will never bring us together. It's fake and phony. Uh, I've been to white churches, they've been to my church, and I've gotten back then accustomed to the behavior, and it's everything in the name of Jesus, but you want it over so you can go your way and we can go our way. It's false fellowship and all these things. And so, what I've noticed about the deconstructing community, uh the humanist community, or people who are just simply people and don't adhere to religion, those are the ones who are able to cross their arms and say, Oh, my folk did some screwed-up stuff to folk. And I was with that at some point because I was young, I didn't know any better. I'm speaking like an old country boy right now. I didn't know any better. And mom and dad and them said that you know they were bad folk, and so but you know what I realized after leaving the church that we ain't that much different, and that I want decent health care. I I want to be able to afford groceries, I want gas prices to go down. I want my child to be safe. I mean, we're the same, different shades, get cut same color blood. I love that type of language. And see, that don't exist, in my opinion, authentically behind a cross. Those types of conversations take place with people who are bold enough and brave enough to say, call it what it is, and then we can get past it. We can't get past anything that we will not address. And anybody who's been through any rehab or something like that knows this. One of the reasons why the doctors ask you when you come in, if you've been if you're new, if you say yes, they give you a clipboard and they're asking all these questions about your family, your past, and all that. What do they want all that information for? Because we have to look at the past to find out, get some clues and answers to why we are, where we are, and then we can come up with a robust plan to take us into the future under better circumstances, right? And so I want to talk about that because this whole the church loves to, oh, you know, we all are one in Christ. No, you're not, you're lying. And I've seen what happened behind closed doors. And you don't want me to marry your daughter. You're okay with me sitting right here. I've been to your house, you've been to my house. You understand? I have a unique experience, but you don't want me or my son to dare date your daughter, and you're a Christian.

unknown 1:14:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:03

Big old flag, big old cross. We gotta talk about because the church does not have the answer. They're the problem.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:11

Sean, I have to have you back on to have this conversation because now I'm like really I'm getting excited because this is a very important subject. I think needs to be for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:23

Yes, so we'll do it. I got your number.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:28

Okay, good. Because that is gonna be that's a good one. That's a good one right there. And I think it's important, I think it's necessary to have those kinds of conversations. But thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:41

Welcome, you guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:42

Go follow Sean. You will not regret it. He has amazing content, his videos are easy to digest. And your books, your ebooks. Yes, we're excited. I'm good.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:54

We got some skits coming up, man. I have never listened uh last time I said, I swear I'll shut up. I love acting, right? I love it. It's like I feel it. I've never been to acting school, I've never done anything. It was TikTok, it was deconstructing that made me. I was bold enough one day to just sit in front of my phone and do it, just act out something. And then now, because of that, other people reaching out to me and we want, we were gonna put things together. When I was a Christian, it was like, well, thus saith the Lord, I have to wait on the Lord, but now get out there. We should know how to do it. Do it, show somebody else. And it's like what we are today, uh, sky is not the limit, it's limitless. You can live because this life is the only life that we know we have. There's no argument about that. Anything after this is speculation that should make you super excited. Like, I'm super excited. I was in church almost 20 years and I did not live. I'm 54 and started living at about 53. I'm just starting.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:55

I love it. I love it. That's amazing. If this conversation stirred something in you, don't ignore it. That discomfort, that tension. That's where the real questions live. A huge thank you to Sean for coming on and having this conversation with me today. If you want to go deeper into the ideas we talked about, make sure you check out his books, Stop Tithing and The Unlearning Lab. Both challenge you to rethink what you've been taught and start reclaiming your own cognitive autonomy. If this episode made you think, question, or even feel a little fired up, share it with somebody who needs to hear it. Because questioning the narrative, that's where freedom starts. I'll see you on the next episode. Thank you for listening. Before we close out, I just want to share a quick reminder. The stories told on this podcast are personal experiences and perspectives. They're shared to create awareness and connection, not as medical, legal, or mental health advice. Some of the conversations here focus on abuse, trauma, and other heavy topics. So please take care of yourself while listening. It's always okay to pause, skip an episode, or step away if you need to. And if anything we talked about brings something up to you, we encourage you to reach out to a trusted professional or support resource. You don't have to carry any of this alone. Thank you for listening.