The Grief We Never Prepare For | Grief, Suicide & Healing with Dr. Alyssa

When the Helpers Hurt: Grief, Suicide & Finding Hope | With Dr. Alyssa

The deconstruction and survivor communities are grieving the heartbreaking loss of Ryan Stollar—a respected advocate, writer, and tireless voice for abuse survivors, child protection, and those harmed within evangelical and homeschooling communities.

Rather than speculate about Ryan's personal struggles, this episode is an opportunity to have an honest and compassionate conversation about grief, suicide, trauma, and hope.

Joining me is Dr. Alyssa, who not only shares her professional expertise but also bravely opens up about her own experience with suicidal thoughts. Together, we explore how grief affects us, why suicide leaves behind such complex emotions, how religious trauma and deconstruction can impact mental health, and how we can better support one another through life's darkest moments.

Whether you're grieving the loss of someone you love, processing your own pain, supporting a friend, or simply trying to understand mental health more deeply, this conversation is for you.

In this episode we discuss:
• The unique grief that follows suicide
• Religious trauma and its impact on mental health
• Why people who help others can still struggle silently
• Warning signs that someone may be in crisis
• How to support someone who is grieving
• Finding hope when life feels overwhelming

This episode contains discussions of suicide, depression, and grief. Please listen with care and take breaks if needed.

Crisis Resources

If you or someone you know is struggling with thoughts of suicide or is experiencing a mental health crisis, help is available.

 United States & Canada
Call or text 988 to reach the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Outside the U.S.
Please contact your local emergency services or your country's suicide prevention crisis service.

You are not alone. Help is available, and your life matters.

If this episode encouraged you, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, and sharing it with someone who may need to hear this conversation.

#MentalHealth #SuicidePrevention #Grief #ReligiousTrauma #Deconstruction #FaithDeconstruction #TraumaRecovery #Healing #Podcast #UnholierThanThou

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Welcome back to the Unholier Than Thou podcast. This episode comes in the wake of a heartbreaking loss for many of us in the Deconstruction community, as just days ago we lost Ryan Stoller. Ryan was an advocate, a blogger, and a tireless voice for survivors of abuse and religious harm. He was widely known for advocating for abuse survivors, child protection, and people harmed within evangelical and homeschooling communities. Through his work, he challenged systems that protected abuse, amplified the voices of survivors, and reminded so many people that they deserved to be believed, protected, and valued. His influence reached far beyond the deconstruction community, but for many of us navigating faith transitions and religious trauma, his work helped us feel seen and less alone. His death has deeply affected many people, especially within the deconstruction and survivor circles. His death by suicide has left many people grieving, confused, and searching for answers. While none of us can fully understand another person's private struggles, we do know that his loss has affected countless lives. Rather than speculate about Ryan's story, today's conversation is about something we all experience in one form or another: Greece. We'll also talk openly about suicide, mental health, and what it means to support one another through life's darkest moments. Joining me again today is Dr. Alyssa, who brings not only her professional expertise, but also remarkable honesty and compassion. My hope is that today's conversation offers comfort, understanding, and reminds anyone who may be struggling that they are not alone. So let's get started. So, my first question to you, Dr. Alyssa, is what happens to us psychologically when someone we admire or identify with dies by suicide?

SPEAKER_00 2:32

It's huge, right? And this, and this one in particular hit me also on a really personal level. It's whenever we see someone, especially someone that we might have looked up to or learned from or was a huge part of our own healing process, it can sometimes shape the entire foundation of what our recovery was, of what their work meant, of what it represented. And it's, and there sometimes is that thought process of like, if they did that, what does that mean about me? Which is part of the reason why I'm so passionate. I'm so glad we're doing this, is because we say sometimes in the therapy field that suicide is contagious, is because the minute that one person does it, especially if it's someone you're close to or someone high profile, it's almost like it gives this subtle and unspoken permission for other people within the community. And that's, I think, part of what makes this so hard, is because then everyone's grieving, but it's grieving on so many different levels. And so that's part of what happens, especially when someone like this does pass away from completing suicide and really passing away from depression and everything that they went through. And I know what a lot of us have gone through too.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Yeah. Ryan spent his life helping other people, right? So it's really difficult for us to sometimes reconcile that someone who gave hope to others could still be struggling inside themselves too. And I think that sometimes we can assume that helping others means that someone's just doing okay. We don't even think that they have any issues behind closed doors. And so, what are some signs that we can look out for?

SPEAKER_00 4:14

I always say anytime that, I mean, we should always be checking on our friends, but especially if someone is in a role where they are formally helping someone, either through their career, their profession, or informally. Well, I mean, Ryan really did bulbs. And so always checking on and never assuming, right? Never assuming, oh, they're doing all this, they're fine, right? Oh, they're excited about this next project, they're fine. Checking in with our friends, hey, how are you doing? Whenever I send that text message, I capitalize the you of like not just in passing, not just suing for pleasantries. How are you doing? Right. And even saying, I know that there's a lot going on. You do a lot and you help so many people. How are you? Right. And really that slowing down and checking in moment, even if they are genuinely doing fine, that still stands out so much to them and can be a cue of, hey, this is somebody who cares about me. And so oftentimes there is that assumption that the helpers just are fine and they're moving forward. The helpers are often the ones who need the most help. Because you also have to look at that's often a reason why those of us who are in these professions got into it in the first place, is because we needed help. We found that and then we wanted to give that back to others, but we still have that history that led us to that step in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

That's such an important point. And I think that for people who are deconstructing and they've lost their sense of not just their sense of identity, because of course we talked about being in a high controlled religious environment, losing the identity that you had and kind of finding yourself outside of that is difficult in and of itself. But then also you're losing the whole community that you were with, even though it may have been a toxic environment, that is all that you knew. And so leaving that and going to nothing can be very hard and isolating. So, you know, I do think that it's one of the most important things when people are stepping outside of a religious environment or changing something drastic like that is to try and find community as soon as possible. Because you just never know how even with something like moving, like we just moved our entire family from Michigan to Florida. And just this past week, I found myself grieving the life that we had there, even though I wanted to move and I was excited to start a new life and it was a new adventure. But I'm like, I don't even have I have I had everybody there. And from our favorite restaurant to our favorite bartender to my hair girl to a seamstress to neighbors to family member. I mean, the list goes on and on, and it can be like that too within a church environment where you have those people, but then you have nothing when you get out. And so finding that community is should be paramount. And I think that, like you said, checking on your friends and loved ones, especially the ones that you know have had a drastic change in their life recently. Grease can be such a difficult thing to navigate because even when you're going through times of grief, you may have a period of time where you feel fine and then it could hit you out of nowhere. Yeah. What are some tips or advice that you could give people when they have a moment that just hits them out of nowhere?

SPEAKER_00 7:48

You're right. Grief does pop up in the most sometimes random, unexpected, and periodic moments. And the way that I describe it to people is it hits us in these waves that we know will eventually go down, but it still hits us, right? It's still there. And so one of the biggest things, two different situations. One where we're in that public environment where we were not able to feel things as intensely. Because realistically, it can happen. It can happen in the grocery store, it can happen talking with friends, still being able to slow down, take a moment and naming it for what it is. Because grief is about losing something, whether it's the loss of a loved one, the loss of community, the loss of who we used to be or who we thought we would be, it's any of that. Naming that is huge. Taking that deep breath to try to regulate our nervous system and then moving forward, especially if we're in that public environment or maybe you're you don't feel able to really experience it fully. If you are in private and do try to encourage my clients and for me as well, to really sit down and go, why is this hitting so hard? What did this person or this community, what did it represent to me? I know Ryan in particular, the community he created, it was the very first community that I ever found after leaving the church. It was the very first community that I found of people who got it and understood. And I felt a little less crazy of meeting those people, talking with the people on homeschoolers anonymous and being going, this wasn't just me, right? Of we feel very strongly when we first leave. And I know, at least for me, those few months after I was like in that first year, like, well, did I know I didn't make a mistake, but I don't know. Like, and it it feels confusing, right? Because the trauma and all that isn't right there at the reminder all the time. And so being able to have this, like, oh no, this really was bad. This really did mess me up. This really was everything that it shouldn't be. That is what that represented. And so being able, I know, at least for me, being able to identify of like that loss when we saw the news come out a couple of days ago, it was the representation of this community and this person I really looked up to, maybe not have agreed with on every certain term, but still very much respected of what he created. And it was losing that idea too of especially when we leave a toxic environment, we want to believe the best about this new community we find and everything's perfect and everything's great. It was also the reality to check of these are human beings too, that are going through struggles, that make mistakes and that, you know, say things maybe they shouldn't, and you know, we treat each other sometimes the way we shouldn't. And it's the reality check of these are still human beings that we're interacting with. But really trying to sit in where why is this hitting me so hard? Where is this coming from? Still regulating and then still looking at what does this mean for me? Right. And I think that's the biggest thing is being able to look at present and then future tense and not getting stuck in how heavy and how dark this really is. Because that's where we see depression start to spiral in again. Like I said, suicide feels like it's contagious. And so really making sure that we're staying present and then future focused around what we I mean, we feel like a legacy. There's so much that we could look at about okay, this is a person who is really, really struggling for a lot of different reasons. And I'm struggling too, right? And we can say any of the people who probably all struggled with very similar things. What can this look like for me moving forward? And the biggest thing here is just not giving up hope. Not giving up hope. Well, he couldn't even make it. What does that say about me? No, he made the choice, and that was his life to live. And we still have our lives to live where we are empowered to make different choices about how we want to move forward. Why does suicide create such a different kind of grief? It's grief in and in general is so complicated and nuanced because it's it's the loss of so much. But suicide in particular, when that's completed, it's something that a lot of us have thought about, have ideations, not everybody, but many people have. So it feels like it's close to home. Often it feels like that's you know, that's always there as an option for some people. And it also feels like, what did we miss? Right. If it was a car accident, things happen, but suicide feels like there was something that we could have done. And so that's why it hits, especially people who are close to somebody there. They constantly are, was there something I missed? Is there something I could have said? Is there somehow I could have stopped this? And oftentimes there's not because people don't always give those signs. And it can be from any environment in the world, and we still see these ideations and the completion happen. And so just being really mindful around this was a choice that they made, but it doesn't have to be a choice that you make or that your friends make. But we also don't want to take for granted that it's never gonna happen. Um, it's it does, it hits, it's a reminder about humanity, it's a reminder about severe the severity of depression. The words get kind of thrown around sometimes, and I've heard it called the common cold and all of this. But just like the cold that can develop into things that are worse and worse and worse, even into something fatal as it progresses into a different type of sickness. Depression is very similar in that, yes, we can go through moments, especially those who are clinically depressed, which is a constant thing that they live with, but it can reach the level where the symptoms do reach for attempted suicide or completed suicide. And so I think it also we just really need to do this reality check of how serious depression actually is. It's not something to laugh at or pass off on, oh, everyone has it. No, it's not like that. And especially for trauma survivors, this is huge because we are we weren't raised with coping skills. We weren't raised with emotional awareness. We were raised that depression was a symptom of sin. And so, especially for religious trauma survivors, this is an intensity on a different level that we often experience depression. And that's really emphasizes the harm of spiritual and religious abuse because it factors into who we are as a person and why it's different often than many other types of abuse. And so that is really just looking at the intensity of it. And what I really want people to take away from a lot of this is we don't just pass off and kind of roll our eyes when someone says they're depressed. We need to take it seriously.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

So, for those of us who were exposed to high controlled religious environments and we experience religious trauma, does that make grief even more complex for us?

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Yeah. Yes. And so part of the reason that a lot of people go to religion and really grasp onto that is because it answers all those unspoken, all those questions. It answers what happens after we die, what's the purpose of living, all those types of things. For those of us who have left and we don't have those maybe strong like Christian beliefs anymore, right? So those who've left faith entirely were left to those unanswered questions. But even those who have stayed within the Christian faith left the high control, there still sometimes can be that question. Because we were taught if you don't do all of these things, you're not going to go to heaven. Or you're, I remember being taught by my pastor, you may go to heaven, but you'll be a shack in the back of in the back of heaven and you'll be in regret for all of eternity. And so, and you won't have any jewels, you won't have any crowns, you won't have the mansion, like all of that stuff. And so it's and we're experiencing a primal emotion, right? This primal thing that we're going through. And so those old thoughts and beliefs, those questions can still come back. And then often, especially when we see, like in this situation, a fellow survivor completely, there can also be a lot of anger, right? Anger of how intense and how damaging this sort of trauma abuse really is. And so then there's the anger at all of this all over again and feeling that ignited too, which then can feed into other emotions that can be really unhealthy. Anger in and of itself is not an unhealthy emotion, but it's how long we sit in it and what we do with it that can make it really unhealthy. Is anger at its core really sadness? Anger at its core is often a few different things. Sometimes it's sadness, sometimes it's fear. Um, and sometimes I do believe it can act in isolation, but a lot of times it's connected to something else. Fear of that could have been me. Fear of that could have been my best friend, sadness of that any of us even went through this in the first place, grieving the loss of our childhoods, grieving the loss of our adolescence, like all of that comes into play here.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

What are some things that we can be looking out for to maybe see if somebody is struggling?

SPEAKER_00 16:49

So any just checking in in general, right? Even if we don't see signs, hey, how are you doing? I know things are rough. How are you holding up? Checking in there. The things we look for clinically when someone talks about, even if it's a passing comment, right, about forming themselves or others, we look for the ideation. So just the thought, right? Which we don't break out there because a lot of us have the thought, but it's still we want to perk up and say, oh, hey, what's going on? So we have ideation.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Would they would they be saying something like, oh, I just want to unalive myself? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

So it could be something of, oh, I just don't want to be here anymore. Oh, I'm so sick of this. I just want this to be over. I don't even know why we keep going, why we keep trying, right? Those types of things are often really common things that can slip into conversation. And that's a, hey, what do you mean by that? What's going on? Or yeah, I felt that too. What do you what do you mean by it? Like, what would it be like to not keep trying? And so that, and even if they mean, oh, I just don't want to, you know, do advocacy anymore, whatever. Okay, sometimes it gets to be a lot and you can pivot the conversation there, but you never want to assume what someone means if they say kind of a vague comment. And so we have ideation and then we look for plan. Have they planned out how they would actually complete the suicide? And so this is have they thought about the method? Any of that is their plan, right? We also then, as clinicians, we look for behavior. Have they done things to start collecting things for that plan? Have they started like writing letters to people? Have they started giving out personal belongings or some of the things that we look for? And then intent. So this is when and how I'm going to do that. And so that's really, I mean, at that point, we should have called earlier, kind of reached out, hey, like you need to talk to somebody. I want to sit with you. Who do you have? What's your support system like? But really, if they have all four, absolutely. But even just at two, that's where I'm like, hey, like, let's talk at two. How who do you talk to in these moments? Right. If you talk to a doctor, if we talk, are you in touch with a therapist? What would this be like? Because we never want to kind of brush it off. Oh, they don't really mean it. Because often those are the people that they do in the back of their minds. Just no one knows. Is isolation also a sign? It can be, but not always. Okay. Um, so some people do isolate. Um, and that is most often I see isolation as the depression's getting worse. But sometimes what we do see is that once someone has made that decision, again, they've gone through all four steps, they've made decisions, this is when I'm going to do it. Then oftentimes we see them actually perk up, them get more energy. They connect with people more. They might be more social. They're giving out some of their personal belongings, writing extra notes to people. And the reason for that is often they describe a feeling of freedom because there's a way out of this hopelessness and depression that they're feeling. Which is why I say never make an assumption. The person who is most likely to complete a suicide is not the person you would most likely think of, especially if you look at accounts of like the days before someone does. Most people have no idea. And sometimes that's why, is because especially if this is something that was planned out, they generally do feel a sense of relief and hope because they know they're not going to be stuck in this position for much longer.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Yeah, because even on Ryan's social media, he was going and doing things and he literally two days before it happened. Um, so that was quite eye-opening to me. But I guess it makes sense when you put it that way, that maybe that was just his plan. And he felt like now that he's he had decided to do it, and he was like, well, live the best, the best I can the next couple days because it's gonna be over after that. Um the last what what I think it was the last post that he made. He actually, I thought it was a pretty amazing post where he talked about you're not alone. Yep, I saw that. Um which was hard to read. Yeah. Because I was like, yeah, but that's what you what should have said to yourself. Like, you're not alone, like we're all here. But I think that it's easy to assume that he was not alone because he had such a big community around him online. And I think that's a misconception that we can all have is that if somebody has a big following and they're part of an online community, they're not alone. But oftentimes they are alone, whether it's like in their thoughts or alone physically or whatever. How can we as a community help other online community members to feel like they're not alone?

SPEAKER_00 21:38

And I love that you brought that up too about feeling alone in thoughts, because even if they do have in person community as well, it's still someone can feel alone in their thoughts and experience. And so one of the biggest things is connection through human experience, not for a function, not for hey, I needed to do this or I'm excited about this project, but like, hey, human to human. And like, who are you doing? Um, I know this is a lot, right? And giving that sign that you are that safe person. And and if as long as it's consensual, right, between the two people of still, hey, can we check in on each other? This is a lot. How was your day? Was it good? Was it bad? I genuinely care about you, right? And that's where often that alone and isolation feeling comes from. Just feeling I've been through all of this, I've done through all, I've been all this. And even sometimes people who are in that helping profession feel it more intensely because people are always wanting something from them. They always want a function, and that feels exhausting sometimes to keep up with. And so to have people that we know for sure would answer that phone, would pour back into us, would be able to give back is priceless. Right. And so one of the things that we do whenever someone does come in is we go through a safety plan. And part of it is looking at what are some of those signs that these thoughts, these feelings are getting more intense and kind of identifying that. And then who are your safety people? Who are the people that you can call that you know would be there? And there was a saying that went around a while ago that was, hey, I need seven minutes. And it was some, it was based on research that said seven minutes of a really good conversation can ground you and give you some positive feelings. And so having that built in of, hey, friends, can I have seven minutes? Right. Just to talk, right? That's a long bathroom break for somebody. Just being able to sit and give conversation and just connect as human beings is huge. And then we also look at what are some of the coping skills that you can do. What are some of the things that ground you? Positive music, not music that keeps you in that sad space, is music that helps you if it's getting outside, if it's being around an animal, all of those things. And then really utilizing the suicide hotline. I know you're going to put it in the show notes, really utilizing that. There's not only a phone, there's text. I personally used the tech suicide hotline. And it was huge just to be able to have someone where I was like, I don't want to burden anybody in my life, but just be able to text and have someone going back and forth. And I was actually surprised at what a positive experience it was. I had to wait a little bit for them to, which I was a little frustrated with, but they didn't get off until I said, okay, I'm going to bed. Thank you so much. I'm okay. But they kept that back and forth. And it wasn't all dark and heavy. They were able to talk and they're like, hey, do you want to talk about something light? Do you want to talk about what's going on? And they were able to, it almost felt like a banter back and forth. And it helped me in calming my nervous system, giving me something to focus on and something to train my thoughts in. And so that is huge. Just you don't want to call someone on the phone. Even just having that texting option, I feel like is so beneficial. And a lot of people don't realize it's there.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Yeah, I didn't know that either. So thank you for mentioning that. Is there anything that we should avoid saying to somebody that comes to us and confides in us and says, I'm, I want to end my life or I'm thinking about suicide?

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Yeah. Not a, so definitely not a hang in there, it'll all get better. I believe in you. Because they don't believe that anymore. Right? They don't believe that. Not not freaking out, oh my God, I'm terrified. Like, definitely not freaking out. Sitting there and being in that safe space, right? And being that safe space to, hey, I'm here. I want to support you. What do you need? Do you need you may check on you? Check who do you have in your life that's checking on you? Can I help you get anything out of the house that you might need to get out of the house for a while? And I think also making it very clear that this is coming with no judgment. Being able to go, hey, promise, but if it's giving medications to a trusted friend or a spouse, um, if it's weapons, if it's whatever that looks like. And so I know, especially for me, and I've been really open about how active suicidal ideation has been throughout my whole life, going through moments of saying, hey, babe, can you hold this medication for me for just like 30 days, right? I'm just not in a good space. Or, you know, not having access to guns in the house for years. Uh, hey, I don't feel comfortable driving right now. I'm just really, really off, especially in those early years of leaving. It was so hard. And then having children, the hormonal shifts. So also anybody who's gone through a major life shift, it is something to look at, especially for women. Any type of hormonal shifts, like with having children or pure menopause, menopause, those are really high risk times. And so that postpartum depression, that's what I went through, is very, very real. And so making sure we're not taking that for granted. But I was so appreciative of all the people who showed up for me. And it was with no judgment, right? They didn't look at me. I didn't feel like they looked at me any differently. But I was like, yeah, I just can't drive tonight. One of those days. Okay, cool. I'll drive to you. We'll do a Zoom call, whatever it is. Right. And the freedom and ability to talk about that so freely, I know for me was genuinely life-saving because I was able to communicate with people before it got to the extent where, okay, now I'm going to, now we're going to actually follow through and do everything, is being able to, even though I had all four of those signs, day, time, plan, all of that, you'll go, you know what? This got really serious. This got really scary. I need you to take this, right? I need to be. And so that was huge. But I didn't do that until people had showed me that they genuinely cared about me as a person and were safe and they weren't going to judge me from it or they weren't going to treat me any differently because of it.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

So when you say you have those like two or three support people that you can call, are you straight up telling them that you're considering this? Or are you just kind of beating around the bush with it?

SPEAKER_00 27:47

So I know for me, I was really honest and straightforward. Um, I know not all my clients choose to be for their support people, but I was like, I do want you to tell your support people, if possible, to be straight up and honest. Like, hey, I'm not really doing well. If I'm ever really struggling, can I talk to you? Right? Can you be someone that answers that I know will answer the phone? Um, and having a couple, because they might be sleeping, right? They might have kids, whatever. But having those couple people is huge, but letting them know at their minimum, hey, I'm not doing okay and I might need you over the next few months.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

And I love that you mentioned that hormones can play a part in that because I know postpartum depression, I went through that too. And I swear it took me like five years to snap out of that. And then it was like, yeah. And then like a few years later, I'm right into perimenopause. And, you know, that's kind of where I've been living for the past few years. And so it has been interesting to sort of monitor my thoughts. And with all the things and life changes that I've experienced in the last couple of years, with the start of it being my dad's passing, um, and then a year later, my mother remarrying, and then moving out of state and all of those things, it was like, man, I gotta really have my people. And that's been super important to me, even though it's only a few people. At least I know I have my people. And just to not to make it a point to not isolate myself and to make it a point to voice my thoughts and feelings at a moment of weakness or a moment of grief or a moment of you name it, anger or sadness or whatever. And so, yeah, I totally agree with you on that point. So thinking about that aspect. So if somebody's listening right now who is literally going through it, they're exhausted with life right now, what do you want them to know?

SPEAKER_00 29:58

One of the one of the biggest things that I know helped me is being able to know, even though this moment, this feeling feels like forever, things do change and fluctuate. And so for me, it was really about coming down to what is something tomorrow, right? What is something tomorrow that I can that I'm looking forward to that I can feel, even if it was something as simple as a food I was gonna eat, or a song, an album that was coming out the next month, or a birthday party I really wanted to go to, right? And what I kept doing is moving that mile mark of for me. And that was really one of one of the things that helped me get through the roughest time. It was, hey, I want to make it to my kid's birthday party, right? And then that'll be it. And as we got closer, he's like, well, we have this coming up, and so let's at least make it through here. And that felt so much more tangible for me at the moment because the thought of existing for years was it felt impossible. But the thought of existing for 30 more days, I was like, okay, I can do that. And then as it got closer, it's like, well, what about 30 more days? And then that was doable. And so keeping it moving on to those small things that we really can find that we that give us something is huge. And so there's this saying that goes around that suicide is that permanent solution to a temporary pain. I had mixed feelings on that because sometimes the pain is very real and it is long term, especially for trauma survivors, because we can't ever escape what happens. But it is a permanent solution to a temporary feeling that's going on because that feeling will change and fluctuate throughout time. It will get more intense, it will get lower, it will find a middle ground, it will constantly move. But with that, so will joy, so will happiness, so will peace. And we can find actively look out for those moments and being able to keep moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

I think that is so good that you mentioned that because I, you know, sometimes it's taking it day by day, truly. It's not just a cliche thing to say, but sometimes it really is truly day by day survival and to have that thing or event or something to look forward to the next day that you can tell, even if it's something as small as, you know what? I'm gonna get myself ice cream tomorrow, I'm gonna get Taco Bell tomorrow, I'm gonna go for a walk tomorrow to the park, I'm gonna go to the beach, I'm gonna meet a friend for coffee. Something that you can look forward to. That is such great advice. I love that. So, what does hope actually look like for someone that cannot imagine a better future?

SPEAKER_00 32:40

It's one of the biggest things is not trying to force yourself in imagining a better future at that moment, but it's being able to recognize this is a flood of emotions and hormones that are going through our body now. And then finding that next step, just like we were talking about whatever's in that immediate. And then when things do feel lighter, when they're not, when it's not feels like it's suffocating and drowning, when you feel like, okay, I can breathe, usually in daylight hours, I feel like I can get through just a little bit more, right? The ideation is still very strong, but it's there. That's when starting to, okay, what do what could this look like? Maybe it feels like it's writing fantasy, but what could this look like? What could this be? And being able to kind of hash that out. I'm also, I know I used it a lot. I would Google, what are 50 top reasons to keep living another day? And you'll be amazed at like all these reasons of blog posts that people have already written and lists, and especially my creativity felt really low and I felt really hopeless. Being able to look at the content that someone else did the brain work for me, someone else was able to give that so incredibly help. And so I there's Spotify lists that are already out there that are created. There are so many blog posts that people already wrote about this, and that of not relying on my own brain and creativity in those moments, really relying on just the invisible community that's around us of people who've been through this was genuinely life-changing. And I took one of those lists, I posted it. It was my phone screensaver, and I looked at it every day for forever. I'm just looking at going, okay, this is what I'm doing. This is why I can keep going. This is why I can keep going. And it was exhausting, but it helped me in getting through from each day into until I got to that place where I was like, okay, I am genuinely excited about the future and I can envision this, but it took a really long time to get there.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

I love that. And I think it's important to note that a person's suicide doesn't erase the good that they did. Yeah. Nor does the good that they did mean that they weren't suffering, right? Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Fully and that's the things can be true at the same time. Oh, no, a thousand percent. And that's one of the biggest things is, and we see the ugly side sometimes of people come out after this, of you know, oh, this means nothing, or he was actually this person or whatever. He was a person with good and bad things about him, of just like all of us, right? But the good that he was able to create and that he did do, that is still there. That is part of that legacy. And there are thousands of lives changed, myself included, because of the communities that he created, because of the advocacy work he did. And if I hadn't found that community when I first got out, I don't know where I would be because it genuinely was the very first people I ever talked to who got it, who understood, who, again, I'm not crazy. We're all going through this together. These are tips and trips and strategies and things to work, work with a therapist and your partner. And it's part of the power and magic of those communities. And that is still there, and all those lives were still changed because of the work he did. And nothing can ever take that back. Absolutely. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

What's maybe a message of hope that you could leave with the listeners who maybe are struggling at this very moment?

SPEAKER_00 35:58

I really, really hope everyone who's listening who understands, I know it can feel dark. I know exactly how dark and heavy and impossible this feels. And we're not asking to promise for forever. We're asking for a promise of tomorrow. And then the next day. And we repeat that promise of I can make it till tomorrow. Because there is so much joy that hasn't been experienced yet. There's so many people that you haven't met yet. There's so many life experiences that you haven't gotten to have yet. And that is huge. And there's so much potential that is still there. We don't know what the future is going to look like, but we do know there's so many opportunities for joy to be found, especially in these small moments. And so if you are struggling, please reach out to someone that you care about, that you know cares about you. If you don't feel like you have that person right now, reach out to a hotline. I am a licensed therapist with a loving family, and I still reach out to the hotline because I didn't feel like I could talk to anybody. And that was huge for me. And that was, it helped so much. Use that they're there, they're wanting to help, they are there for a reason. And this is such a huge resource. And then being able to find that community, it's genuinely worth it. I promise you, it does get better. I know that sounds cliche, but it really does. And it may not be tomorrow, it may not be the next day, but you add up enough tomorrow, it does get better.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

And I had wanted to have somebody come on at some point to talk about the subject of grief, but this is such an important subject paired with suicide, because obviously there's different types of grief in ways that people pass, but suicide is so important. And I think that it being such a prevalent thing within our society, especially within the last few years, I feel like it the numbers have increased. And to share with us some signs and some tips and ways that we can help people and we can help each other is to me, it's it's invaluable. It's priceless. And so I appreciate you coming on today and having this conversation with me and sharing your expertise with the listeners. And again, I am going to put resources in the show notes for anyone listening. I know that Dr. Alyssa would love to hear from you. If you feel like you need somebody to talk to, y'all can also reach out to me, DM me. We want to be here for this community. And um, it saddens me and it saddens uh Dr. Alyssa as well. What happened with Ryan, but that doesn't mean that his legacy was for nothing. He did so much good.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

No, he did. Everything that he did, the communities he created has made such a difference in so many lives. Um but we don't want, as especially someone who's given so much, we never want someone in that position or anybody to feel alone. Because we don't want this to be repeated.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Absolutely. I especially want to thank Dr. Alyssa for joining me today for her courage and vulnerability. I know this conversation wasn't easy, but her willingness to be honest has the potential to help someone listening realize that they're not alone in what they're feeling. Sometimes the most powerful thing we can offer another person is the reminder that there's no shame in struggling and that asking for help is a sign of strength, not weakness. To everyone listening, if today's conversation brought up difficult emotions, I want to encourage you to reach out to someone you trust, whether it's a friend, a family member, a therapist, or another safe person, you don't have to carry your pain by yourself. If you or someone you know is struggling with thoughts of suicide or is in an emotional crisis, please know that help is available. We've included crisis resources, including the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline, in today's show notes. If you're in the United States or Canada, you can simply call or text 988 to connect with a trained crisis counselor anytime, day or night. If you believe you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call your local emergency services right away. And finally, if no one has told you this lately, your life has value. Your story matters. Even if today feels impossibly heavy, there are people who want to help you carry it. There is hope even when you can't see it yet. Thank you for listening. Before we close out, I just want to share a quick reminder. The stories told on this podcast are personal experiences and perspectives. They're shared to create awareness and connection, not as medical, legal, or mental health advice. Some of the conversations here focus on abuse, trauma, and other heavy topics. So please take care of yourself listening. It's always okay to pause, skip an episode, or step away if you need to. And if anything we talked about brings something up to you, we encourage you to reach out to a trusted professional or support resource. You don't have to carry any of this alone. Thank you.