What Happens When We Die? A Conversation on Death, Deconstruction & the Search for Truth | Melissa Farley

What happens when we die? It's one of the oldest questions humanity has ever asked, and in this episode of Unholier Than Thou, Melissa Farley and I explore it through the lens of faith, deconstruction, and curiosity.

Melissa, co-host of The Morning Show, shares her journey of growing up in a high-control religious environment, untangling inherited beliefs, and rebuilding a life rooted in authenticity. We discuss the grief, identity shifts, and healing that often accompany leaving rigid belief systems, and why asking difficult questions isn't something to fear—it's part of being human.

Our conversation naturally turns toward death after discussing a guest Melissa interviewed on The Morning Show who shared a remarkable near-death experience. That discussion opens the door to Melissa's upcoming book, which explores death, consciousness, and one of the greatest mysteries we'll all eventually face. While the title of the book hasn't been released yet, Melissa offers a glimpse into the questions driving her research and why this subject has become such a meaningful part of her work.

We also talk about the power of storytelling, what Melissa has learned from interviewing people from all walks of life, and why staying curious may be one of the most important things we can do.

If you've ever questioned your beliefs, wondered what lies beyond this life, or found yourself searching for truth outside the boundaries of certainty, this conversation is for you.

Melissa is also the founder of Stronger Today, a social media branding and marketing company that helps small businesses and personal brands grow their online presence with confidence and authenticity. You can also catch her as the co-host of The Morning Show. You'll find links to connect with Melissa, The Morning Show, and Stronger Today in the show notes.

Hashtags:

#UnholierThanThou #WhatHappensWhenWeDie #Death #Afterlife #Deconstruction #ReligiousTrauma #FaithDeconstruction #Spirituality #Consciousness #NearDeathExperience #QuestionEverything #ThinkForYourself #Podcast #YouTubePodcast #Healing #SearchForTruth #HighControlReligion #Curiosity #Truth #Exvangelical

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Welcome back to the Unholier Than Thou podcast. Today I'm joined by Melissa Farley, co-host of the morning show, for a conversation that takes us from religious extremism and deconstruction to one of life's biggest questions: what happens when we die? Melissa shares her journey of untangling inherited beliefs, navigating family trauma, and rebuilding a life rooted in authenticity after leaving a high controlled religious environment. We talk about the grief, identity shifts, and unexpected hope that can emerge when you're willing to question everything. Along the way, we discuss a memorable guest from the morning show who shared a near-death experience, which naturally led us into a fascinating conversation about death, consciousness, and the questions that have captivated humanity for centuries. Melissa also gives us a glimpse into a book she's currently writing on the subject, offering a thought-provoking look at one of the few experiences every human being shares. This is a conversation about faith, healing, curiosity, and embracing the mystery. So let's get started. You've talked about your religious background, some family trauma and deconstruction journey. And looking back now, what was more terrifying to you? Was it staying in the world that you knew or stepping into the unknown?

SPEAKER_01 1:48

That's a great question. And actually, um, it's interesting you say that because I am just now starting to talk publicly about this experience that I've gone through. I think I've done one podcast where I brought it up. It wasn't deeply explored. So this is kind of the first time I'm really going all the way in. And I'm I'm actually really um, I feel really good about doing that. And I to answer your question, I think that it was such a weird process. The whole thing of it was such a a weird, loaded process that I went through that when I first got out of the religion and the cult that I was in, I was so angry for so many years that I don't even think fear was part of my purview until I actually was able to move through some of that anger and then finally kind of asked that question of, well, what do I believe now? And, you know, uh essentially I had stopped believing in anything. I think that's normal after you go through something like a religious trauma. And so I really didn't know what was what was out there, and that was a scary feeling. That was a really scary feeling because what did that mean? That I was alone in like in this universe? Was I any kind of thing that existed that wasn't going to take advantage or hurt me? Because, you know, God is supposed to be this thing that protects you, family's supposed to be this thing that protects you. Both of those were basically used against me. And so that created just a lot of fear in general of people, of like being able to feel like I could trust. Um, and so I really do think the fear didn't come until even a couple years later of like, okay, I'm over being angry, but now I don't know who I am, what I am, if I'm alone, that kind of thing. So to be fair, I didn't leave the church by my own choice. So Oh, okay. Yeah. So, you know, my church was run by uh my uncle and his wife, and I was like super close with their daughter. She was my cousin. We were both only children, but we sort of bonded like sisters. My grandmother was teaching the Sunday school church, my other aunt was involved. I had a bunch of family going to this church, but my parents never went. And so they didn't realize how indoctrinated I was becoming. They didn't realize that I was, they were trying to basically separate me from my parents. They didn't realize that I was being raised to think that I was going to hell, basically, because you just could not be perfect enough, you know, for this old testament God. Um, but my dad came and picked me up and uh one time and just observed for like a couple minutes what was going on. And I remember my dad um didn't speak to me the entire drive home. He was just totally silent. And the next day he uh got me up and we sat on the couch, and it was the first time I saw my dad cry. And he just said, I can't let you go back to that place. Um, whatever my sister and her husband are doing, that's not of God. And I can't let you go back there. And I was so angry at him for taking me out of that church, for taking me away from my family. Um, and then once I started realizing everything that was going on, the anger shifted towards my dad in a different way of why didn't you come sooner? Why didn't you rescue me sooner? Um, and so then all the anger started around actually realizing all of the things that they had done and said that were just, you know, not kind and not and not good. And so for me, this was right around um when I was a senior in high school. And so I kind of just lost my way a little bit, kind of renounced God and all religion. And in college, I started taking some philosophy classes and um was I was actually an art history and anthropology major originally. And so I started learning about all these different ways that the world experiences God and all of the same stories that people tell in all sorts of different ways and all the different ways. And one of the first books that I read that had a bit of a religious slant, if you will, was the Bhagavad Vita, Bhagavad Vita. And this idea that God was actually this wholly expansive thing and showed up to you in the way that you needed to experience God was the first time I started playing with that idea. And so I said, okay, God, if you're out there, I can't, I can't stay with you if you are what you were taught to me as in that church. I that's something that I can't go back to, but I want to get to know you my own way and and understand you in this new way. And I did that very slowly, you know, with just kind of forging my own way. Now, will I ever step foot in a church again? No, I have I haven't done that yet. I don't know that I will. I still don't really trust or buy into any kind of organized religion. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

I'm with you on that. I'm curious, what was the religion that your aunt and uncle were in?

SPEAKER_01 7:08

It was, I mean, it basically was evangelical Christianity, but there was other things happening where, like, you know, he he was viewed as the prophet and kind of was this divine, untouchable speaker of God. And one of the examples that I'll give that I think goes beyond just being an evangelical church is like there was a woman that was getting cancer treatment, and they had convinced her that if she were to instead give her money to the church, you know, aka God, and show that she had her full trust and faith in God, then she would get healing. And of course, she didn't. She ended up passing away, but she gave a sizable amount of money to the church instead of continuing her medical treatment. So stuff like that was happening. So it was it was those evangelical teachings, but also couched in like taking advantage and doing some pretty not okay things to people that were members of the church. Yeah. Were your parents religious at all? They were, yeah. They were religious and they're still pretty conservative, like compared, especially compared to me, they're still pretty conservative. But they just I don't know. I never fully understood why they never went to the church. I do think they never fully liked my dad's brother-in-law. And I think that I don't think that they thought the church was that harmful. I think in their mind they thought, oh, she's having family time. Like I really think that's what they thought is like, oh, she's spending time with, you know, grandma and with her cousin. And I don't know that they fully understood everything that was that was happening because it was a little church, you know, it was like 30 people. And so I think in their mind, they might not have even taken it seriously that this was an actual real church, but yeah, it it definitely was. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

One thing I find interesting is that when you your dad was like, you're not going back there, you initially were upset with him, but then you were upset with him because he took you out of that. But then then you were upset with him because you were like, Why didn't you come sooner? Why didn't you get me out of this sooner? Because you didn't realize it probably at the time, but that was your once you stepped out of that environment, you were then deconstructing and seeing again from the outside in to say, okay, this was messed up, more messed up than I had realized. And why didn't you come for me sooner? Right. Yeah. And I think that, you know, just trying to do the best you could, but yeah. Yeah, but I that is a a common thing that I've experienced that other people who have deconstructed have experienced. And I recently had an interview with a woman that came out of Mormonism, and her episode's coming out in a few weeks, but we were talking about a lot of these documentaries now about Mormonism and about the LDS church and the FLDS church, which is more even more strict than the regular LDS church. And there's a lot of documentaries on these, and one of the ones that I just watched was called Trust Me, the False Prophet. I don't know if you've seen this. I did. Yeah. Okay. Well, those girls went to prison, and some of them did, anyways. And one of them, when they got out, she said that basically prison saved her, prison opened her eyes. And it was like because she was removed from that. When she was in it, she was so entrenched in it, she couldn't see the truth. And she couldn't see reality and she couldn't see what was really happening. And I was even telling her, I'm like, it's amazing because even these girls, when they interviewed them after the fact, even their countenance was different and it was just happier and more peaceful. And they were actually living their life. And I just think that deconstruction can be so beautiful in that way to get out of these religious controlled environments and then see what the world can actually be a beautiful place. I feel like that's kind of what happened with you. Am I off base there?

SPEAKER_01 11:20

No, not at all. I mean, I think that yeah, you don't know what you don't know, you know. And when you're young and you're being raised like that, you think everybody should be a Christian. You believe that it's your job to convert people. And if you're genuinely thinking that your friends are gonna go to hell because they didn't take Jesus Christ into their heart, you're, you know, you you're doing it out of a love. But the thing is, yeah, as you get older and you start learning about the world, and travel was a big piece of this for me too. I live in Arizona. We have a lot of Native American communities here. And learning about the way they experience spirituality, the way they experience God's. There's no way that you can tell me that there is only one right way to believe in a God and to go to heaven. Like after being in these cultures and seeing what they know to be true, who why is it my place to go in and tell you, oh no, mine's the only right one, you know? And so that really, that really started to open my eyes too of how like naive and selfish and controlling of these facets of people that want to basically just convert and take over everybody else's belief systems. Like that's just not the way that it works. And so I think that was I think that was a really big part of my eye-opening as well. But that documentary, it's funny you bring that up because I remember watching that part where some of the girls got arrested and went to jail. And I was kind of like upset about it because I was like, they need help. You know, they need to be rehabilitated and not like punished. They didn't understand that what they were doing was wrong. But I know I understand, you know, that obviously having that distance and that time, not being able to go back, even if they wanted to, was that gift of freedom that a lot of them needed. But I still have mixed feelings about them, you know, actually going to jail um for that, because I you're so, like I said, like you're so indoctrinated in it that you don't realize what you're doing is is wrong at the time, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Yeah, exactly. You're brainwashed, you're manipulated, you're being controlled and you're being you're being so manipulated to, like you said, like your whole mission is let's convert as many people as possible. Like, why wouldn't you tell your friends about this? Because we're rescuing them from hell, right? Right. That's like the ultimate thing is to go out into the world and preach the gospel. But I often try to remind people that if you were born in, say, a Middle Eastern country, you would probably be Muslim. If you were born in an Asian country, you would maybe be Hindu or Buddhist, you know. And so I think that sometimes Christians can get this elitist mentality, like, we're so much better because we have the right way. Well, again, it's like you said, you were then around these indigenous people who were having their own version of spirituality and maybe probably seemed happier than a lot of people that you knew that were Christian. And you're like, well, why is my way right and theirs is wrong?

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Like, yeah, yeah, you know, it yeah, it becomes less defensible when you start to really see how that works. And also, I don't think that I'm a stupid person, you know. I think that as I got older, I started researching the Bible and Jesus Christ. And Jesus was a rebel. I mean, Jesus was not how evangelical churches, you know, teach about this application of Christianity. And and as someone who's studied feminism, you learn about all the ways that women were removed from these biblical textures. And so that was an interesting process too, because you know, that used to make me nervous, like stopping looking at the Bible as this sacred thing and realizing, oh no, humans, humans put this together. Humans are flawed, humans had motives and purpose and chose to include what they did for political reasons mostly. Um, and that's kind of what I started to feel about religion as a whole is religion, maybe at one point was divine, at you know, at some place at the origin point. But humans, with all our good intentions, are flawed and corrupt things. And that that's where my hesitation always comes back to when organize religion is I'm sorry, you are Eli, I'm not gonna trust you as a any kind of intermediary, basically, between me and my relationship with God. Like, I don't think I'll ever put a person in between me and God again, because I just I won't be able to trust that, you know?

SPEAKER_00 16:19

And I and we're not saying that these people have like malicious intent, like they're just trying to tell us their beliefs and they want other people to believe that. And I was once one of those people too, just as you were. But just saying, like you discovered that you want to believe that anymore, and you saw other things that made more sense to you, and you're I'm I'm kind of like that, where it's like, you do you, boo. You know what I mean? Like, just if you want to believe that, that's fine. I'm not trying to change your mind, but I also don't want, you know, with this podcast, I try to tell people, let's not live in the echo chamber that we all used to live in. Like, let's hear other people's outside perspectives and viewpoints. Because just like when you went to college and you took those classes, you started having these aha moments where you're like, wait a minute, okay, that kind of makes sense. I was never taught this. And you were kind of expanding your horizon a little bit. And I want to do that here on this platform because I think it's so important for people to see other people's viewpoints.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Yeah. And I think that's the thing too, is that my experience keeps evolving, right? So my husband is a Freemason and they had Elaine Pagles speak. I don't know if you're familiar with her, but she is kind of this big figure that works in Gnosticism. And I sometimes they have these educational nights where women can come and join their husbands and stuff at the lodge. And so I heard her speak and I was really curious about it. And so I started reading a book on Gnosticism. And all of a sudden I'm starting to go, huh, my beliefs sort of align with Gnosticism, but I don't know if I feel ready to align myself with a label, you know, and and that a little bit of panic started kind of seeping in of like, am I a Gnostic? What does that mean? You know, and then I thought, okay, well, I that I don't have to do anything with it. Like, you know, that's something that I can still continue to learn about and expand. And if that's something I want to find a community around at some point, maybe I will. But I think it's just that that openness, you know, of kind of not giving up totally on this idea that I do believe there is, you know, a creator, a spirit system, something that that that is there. I just don't think that I will ever probably be a part of a system that has like subscribed rules and things that you kind of have to do or can't do, and you know, kind of any sort of conversion. Like there's kind of hard lines that I've drawn that sort of are non-negotiables for me of how I'll experience my spirituality. But like you were saying, I would never rob or take that away from somebody else if they're in a practicing place of Christianity. That's not my place to take away from them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

I think it's interesting that you mentioned Gnosticism because I don't know if you've ever heard of Bill Donahue. He's past now, but he has a lot of videos on YouTube, and he talks about that specifically and just interprets the Bible in a way that makes so much sense. Like he literally uses the Bible and talks about it and explains things that weren't explained that way when I was in church. But he's really interesting. What are some of the red flags that maybe people can watch out for if they're in a church or a spiritual community?

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Yeah, I mean, obviously for me, and you've probably heard me say it now a couple of times. I think anytime somebody wants you to treat them as a savior or as a prophet, and you have to get your communications or your messages or blessings through them, that's usually a red flag to me. I mean, you know, that's that's one of my issues with Catholicism. That's something that I just I want to have direct like communication and and relationship with with God in that way. I think that can be a red flag. I think another red flag is obviously for me in this extreme situation, we they were really trying to isolate us into, oh, your your family might not understand, your friends might understand, but you're on a divine mission. And kind of this this isolating um approach of don't worry about the people that are that are worried about you, like just listen to this thing that God wants you to do. And I think anytime there's any sort of that isolation component, that's a red flag. I think anytime they're asking you to place your resources in the church as opposed to making sure that your family's provided for, or making sure that you're getting health care, or making sure that you're taking care of yourself. If they're asking you to give money in that way, that's a pretty big red flag to me. One of the red flags that I don't know if like you've had experience talking about this, but they would kick people out of the church. If somebody questioned him, if somebody challenged him, they would get kicked out of the church. And that became a big red flag to me. It's like, you don't kick people out of churches. Like that's not how that's supposed to work. Um so that I would say that's a red flag as well. And that goes into personal beliefs as well. My parents were part of a very conservative church where people would get kicked out if they got divorced, you know? And that's a very huge congregation. They still do that to this day. And to me, I think that's a red flag. If your church community can't support you during all walks. Life, then that's not a true supportive community. When if you do look at the teachings of Jesus and who he accepted into his circle, even if you're a Christian, that's not how Jesus would have treated somebody that had sinned or that had gotten a divorce or whatever the situation may be. Right. Um, that's like red flag.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Yeah, I agree with all of that. Have you ever had a conversation with your parents about in your later years? Have you ever had a conversation with them about what happened at the church and and also where they're at in their church and saying, like, why do you guys not see what's going on here? They don't even accept people that are divorced, they get kicked out. Have you guys ever sat down and hashed it out together? It gets pretty heated.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Yeah. Yeah. We yeah, we've had conversations. My dad has kind of labeled me, and this is a nice term, but how he's come to understand me is a humanitarian. That's how he thinks of me now, to understand how accepting I am of a lot of the things and the people that you know he was taught not to be accepting of. Um they they were wounded by this too, though. I mean, they never continued going to an organized church after the fact either. So they still consider themselves Christians. I think because they've they've lived as a Christian, uh, an evangelical Christian for so long, it's so ingrained in them that, you know, I think those beliefs are just really part of their identity now, but they they've not returned to like a like a members of a church um you know since that happened either. So I think that for them, distrust of people did become a thing, but they weren't willing to walk away from the religion aspect of it at all. They kind of blamed it all on the figureheads of that specific church. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Do you still talk to your aunt and uncle, or you haven't you don't want to talk to them anymore?

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Yeah, yeah. And it's it's one of those things that I went through years of therapy. I'm still in therapy, um, working through, you know, a lot of the the behaviors and the long-term effects that came out of that, you know, that that just happened when you're at that age, at that impressional age, and you're learning how to survive in the world. Um, and I don't feel anger. I'm not like seething or loathing. I don't wish them bad, but I also don't wish to have them in my life. Yeah, that's not something that I that I think would be healthy for me. And so I'm I'm okay with that.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Boundaries are important. Yeah. For sure. And sometimes not having a relationship with even family members is healthy.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Yeah. I mean, it's it makes me sad. Like we just watched family videos, you know, the other day when I was young and everybody was all together. And um, I get teary-eyed, you know, because I I look at those times and I think, oh, that we look like a beautiful family, you know, that looks like such a rich and fulfilling time. And of course, I I I wish, you know, that that hadn't happened. Um, but yeah, just for my own peace of mind, it's it's the best decision for me to make. And my dad still talks to them. I don't think they're super close. I don't think they'll ever be super close, but you know, it's my dad's sister. And for him, cutting her completely out of his life, I don't think isn't is something that he fully wants to do. And was there a period where I was angry about that too? Yeah. Yeah, there was. But you know, you get older and you start to understand how complicated things are and how complicated loving a family member or loving anybody, you know, can be, even when they're they do something bad. And I try to have grace around that.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Yeah. Sometimes uh people outside of the church have a little bit more grace than the ones inside the church. I found that to be true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Yeah, I know, I know it. I just think it's wild, you know, that I think that's what I have a hard time with now, too, even with a lot of Christians, is like the words are all right, you know, compassion and forgiveness. Like so many of the words are are the beacons that you want to be. But then when you look at how evangelical Christianity actually functions, it's it's the opposite of that. And that's kind of what I think a lot of people get turned off with, with that faith in particular, is those feelings of hypocrisy, you know, that that you see and start to identify pretty regularly if your eyes are open.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Absolutely. Has forgiveness been part of your journey or is that still complicated? That's still complicated.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Um I'm just being honest. Like I, you know, I'll think that I'll kind of have reached this this place of enlightened forgiveness, and then something will trigger me, and I'm like, oh, I guess I'm I guess I'm still working on that. You know, and and I think I think that's just I think that's just normal for being being human, you know. I think that honestly, and my my therapist and I have talked about this, like to not feel angry, to not feel a sense of injustice at what happened to me would be abnormal, you know, like that's that's a very normal human response to feel those things. And so I'm actually trying to learn how to be a little bit more gracious with myself, even around that, because a lot of times I think, well, I've quote unquote healed, I've moved on, I'm doing well. Like, why can't I just be okay in all things? Um, but you know, it's life's messy. It's not always that that perfect.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

It's definitely a process, right? It's not like healing it has an end point. I think that you can go through certain periods of your life and maybe it's a little easier to deal with than other times. But then, like you said, you might have a moment where something might trigger you. I still experience that myself as well. And to give yourself that grace, I think it's important to give yourself grace, but also forgive yourself for maybe something that you blamed yourself for. Like, I should have seen this, I should have gotten out earlier, I should have whatever. And I think we need to let go of that and say, where am I at now? What did I learn from it? And what can I do now to maybe help other people who are in a similar situation as I was in? Um, I think that's so important to just take a step back and reflect on that because we we have different versions of ourselves through different stages in our life. I mean, I love Taylor Swift. Now my daughter is like an avid Taylor Swift fan, a Swifty, and she's kind of pulled me into that vortex. And I never used to like her, but until recently. And now I listen to her her lyrics and I'm like, oh my gosh, I can so relate to that. And um, and I say all that to say she just she a couple of years ago, she did the Ares Tour. Yeah. And the Ares Tour sort of went through every single album that she's ever written. And she explained that every album was like an era in her life. And I'm like, that is so genius because really that's all of us. If we if we take certain stages in our life, like we of course come out of each stage, we grow, we learn lessons, we make mistakes, all of those things, and we develop into a totally different person. Like, I'm not the same person I was when I was in my 20s or in my 30s, you know what I mean? And so I think looking back on those things that we did in, you know, the cult or the church or whatever you want to call it, to say, this is the the environment that I was given. These are the the people that were in my life. I was young, I was an impressionable person, and I've learned from it. I've come out of it, but it's a journey. I'm not, I haven't arrived right at I am healed. I'm good now. I'm not going to ever get triggered again. I mean, there's times where I could be at a funeral and somebody could say something from the Bible and say, oh, they're in heaven right now. It's like, well, how do you know that? You know what I mean? And I could get all upset and mad. And it's like, okay, Jen, let's get back into yourself. Let's calm down, you know. Yeah. You got to remind yourself. But I love that you said that. You got to have grace with yourself sometimes, you know, remind yourself that it's a journey, truly.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

I think it's it's funny because the eras too are like you were talking about, um, there's this exercise that a lot of brand strategists, um, like top-tier brand strategists, will have you go through if you're trying to build like yourself as a brand. And it's it's a kind of similar exercise where you sort of break your life experiences, your big moments, into chapters, and you literally title that chapter of your life and what the trigger points were, good or bad. And so you kind of create this book of your life and all these different chapters that you've lived. And I remember doing that and talking about it and thinking so much of it was in my early childhood and in my youth of just trying to survive and just trying to understand um what was really happening to me, you know? And then there's definitely a pivot point somewhere in my life, not probably until my 30s, where I started going, okay, I'm gonna stop being so reactionary to things and I'm gonna start creating the life that I actually want based off of all of those lived experiences. And that doesn't mean I have it all figured out. It just means, you know, I kind of really stop putting myself in this place of, well, I'm a product of my environment to I am now creating the environment I want to exist in, you know. And I think that's that's an important distinction to come to in your life. And that's where some people get stuck is, you know, I have friends, I have people that have gone through very similar backgrounds and things that I have that just never were able to move past that initial hurt, you know, and that initial wound. And that's really hard, you know, that's a really hard thing. And I just didn't want to be that, you know, I didn't want to stay in that place because it wasn't serving me. It wasn't serving me to stay, you know, in this kind of wound, open wound of a of a spot, you know, and um, but everybody has to arrive there differently. Everybody has a different path to get to that place. And now there are psychologists who to deal specifically with religious trauma, and there are a lot of places that you can get support, but for a while, that wasn't really a thing. There wasn't a group of people you could just go talk to and be like, hey, I went through this traumatic religious experience. And so, you know, I that was one of the things that I worried about when I got out of the church is what about all those other kids? How did they turn out? How are they doing? What are they doing? Do they still believe that? Um, and you know, I think I think that's something that has haunted me a little. I know when I had dreams about the experience, sometimes I would dream about the church being on fire and me rescuing like all the kids. And I think that was my subconscious sort of trying to like show how worried I was about, okay, I got out, but I don't know about anybody else.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Yeah, that's so powerful though. So you had talked about the different chapters, and I love that analogy. And one of your chapters was that you were able to be more creative at that point. And now you are a keynote speaker, you are an entrepreneur, you have a show, and I'd love to talk about that so that the listeners know what you do. You spend a lot of time interviewing other people. What is something that you've learned just hearing from so many different life stories?

SPEAKER_01 34:19

So I think where this all came from was, and I didn't discover this honestly until very recently. Because I didn't feel like I had a safe space growing up, I sort of have unintentionally been creating safe spaces for other people my whole life. And that's sort of what the show is, you know, in a sense, where these are people that they're not huge multimillion dollar companies. A lot of them are small, independently run, family-run businesses that come on and talk to us, creators, artists, entrepreneurs. And the moments that are most special and meaningful to me are like when they're telling me something and they're kind of like just blowing through their story. And it's like I stop them and I'm like, do you realize this amazing thing that you created? Let's stop and recognize that you built this thing. And for some of them, it's very clear that like they didn't have that, you know, they weren't getting that from other people, or maybe, maybe their mom was telling them, you know, but it's different when it's your mom or like your spouse. Um, so so being able to just recognize somebody and and kind of share that moment with them, that's been really powerful. And so that's kind of the the experience that we want uh to have for everybody to have. And and one of the things that people find a little strange about us is like some of our core pillars are for people to feel joy when they come on the set and for them to have fun. And part of that is because the world is hard and life is hard. And when you come and spend some time with us, we want it to be a joyful experience. We want you to walk away feeling like that was really positive and fun and a celebration of what you're doing. And so I think that the thing that I've learned is that everybody needs that. Everybody needs a celebration coach, a celebration cheerleader. And that's what we really try to do on the show is amplify who you are and what you're trying to bring into the world.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

I've watched some of the episodes and it does seem like a very fun atmosphere. But yeah, I would I actually the last episode I watched was the guy who had gotten internally decapitated. Yeah. He was like, that was a wild story. If you can you guys need I'm gonna put all the links in the show notes, but you guys are gonna listen to some the I mean, I was like, this is wild what happened to him. Like he died and came back, so he knows what it's like.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

Yeah, yeah. And yeah, he suffered um yeah, traumatic brain injury, multiple traumatic brain injuries, and his journey to being to where he is at now is just so remarkably inspirational. I know that's like such a buzzword, and everybody's like, oh, it's so inspiring, but like he really is truly, yeah. Well, and he has such a good attitude about it. Like, oh my gosh, it's crazy. But you know, he's open about that. Like he wasn't always in that place where he had a good attitude about it. That that was a choice that he made, you know, to kind of step into that place. And I think that's a good lesson for everybody, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:40

I think the concept of that is very interesting. There's a lot of people, witnesses that have have had these same experiences. And and death is obviously a very hot topic. You know, people say, oh, you don't know, you don't really know. And then other people say it's definitely a heaven or a hell, you're going one place or another, there's no life after this. What is your view on that?

SPEAKER_01 38:05

Um, undecided. Just to be totally honest, it's totally undecided. And I think because it doesn't give me comfort to try to pretend like I know an answer when I don't actually, nobody actually knows. You know, there's not, that's not a provable thing. But for me, this is a point of curiosity and a kind of a passion uh focus for me because Americans are the most afraid of death than any other country in the world. Like we are terrified of death. And we are also one of the societies that is the most removed from death, right? We don't, we don't really deal with it in the homes. There's, you know, funeral services that handle all of those transition moments. There's hospices. So death is really far removed from us now. And that wasn't always the case. And so I'm actually writing a book all about death about how to basically live a meaningful life in order to have a good death. And what I am learning through this process is helping me come to terms with my own death as I go along in this journey, because I'm talking to people that are morticians and death doulas. I'm talking to obviously people that have had those near-death experiences. In fact, there's a scientist who that's his whole career is working with people that have had these near-death experiences. I am talking with people that focus in basically anthropology and how different places around the world think about and deal with death and handle death in their communities and in their homes and the evolution of how death has changed from, you know, being very close at home to where you were literally the one taking care of your loved one and getting them ready for burial to now you don't even have to see the dead body if you don't want to, right? And so this idea of memento mori, of being reminded of your mortality is actually a really good thing because I think so many people live like there is limitless time, and there's not. In fact, time is the most valuable resource you have. You're not going to get it back. And so this book is really to encourage that mindset of okay, you have a finite amount of time, really treasure and be intentional about what you're doing here on this earth. Because, you know, I think that's the tragic thing that we hear about all the time on deathbeds is those regrets. I wish I would have. And so I think that's one of the things that we're addressing in this book is you can have a good death, but you you have to have lived a good life to have a good death.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Okay, so now I'm really curious. What is a death doula?

SPEAKER_01 40:45

A death doula is very similar to a birth doula in the sense that when people are in the process of dying, a lot of times, like in hospitals or in hospice care, there are people there that are making sure all the medical things are being checked off of the boxes and going through that. But there's not really someone there a lot of times advocating for what the patient wants. And also a lot of times, if you've been in a situation maybe where there's a death in the family, the family can get really you know, they can argue with each other, there can be conflicts, there can be just a lot of emotion. And so the death doula spends time with the person that is passing to make sure that they have communicated what they really want and and kind of what their needs are. And then the death doula helps facilitate that with the family, with the medical staff, and basically acts as an advocate for that person. And sometimes a death doula will just be like if you are passing and you don't have family or you don't have friends and you don't want to die alone, you can have a death doula come in and sit with you and spend time with you. So there's all sorts of different roles that a death doula can play. They are getting a little more known. Like there are some hospices that are now hiring death doulas or at least creating partnerships with them. So that's encouraging. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

Why do you think that our relationship with death here in America has changed so drastically in the last hundred or so years? Because even like a hundred years ago, they would, I mean, your home was the funeral home. Like people would come, you would lay your relative out, and people would come and pay their respects and come to your house.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

The church actually played a big role in that transition of kind of being one of the places that you would turn to to handle death. And the thing about it is not to get like too, I don't even know if political is the right word, but right, like when your loved one dies and you are of that faith, you want to make sure that they're going to heaven. So then when you have a church that's saying, hey, pay us $200 and we'll make sure we read the rights to send their soul to heaven and, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you're you're paying for peace of mind, you're paying for those kinds of things. That started then the entry of the funeral service so that people again didn't have to deal with these kinds of things. So there was practical things that happened to lead to that evolution of how death got moved out of the home. But for some countries and in some practices and some religions, that still doesn't happen. You know, Japan is notorious for doing death differently. In fact, they have, it's fascinating. They have a it's called a death hotel. And the reason for those is a lot of times when somebody dies and you want to spend time with the body after the person has passed, you can't because you're supposed to move them out of the home and all this stuff. So now you can actually rent basically a hotel room with your loved one, and you can spend time there with the body for as long as you need before you either have them cremated or buried, or whatever your preferred ritual is for that. So there's all sorts of different things happening for people to be able to. Grieve and process death in the way that they need now, but America's pretty far behind on that.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

Hmm. That's so intriguing to me. My mom actually was a funeral director for about 15 years. So she has a lot of stories. And it's it was always interesting to me hearing if like an Indian family would come in and they'd have their Hindu ceremonies and all of that, how vastly different it was from, say, like a Catholic mass or a Christian sermon. You know what I mean? It was just so different. All the different cultures and and ways of life, how they processed death. So that is so intriguing to me. What's the name of the book gonna be?

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Um, I can't release the title yet. Okay. Yeah, it's coming. Um, but it's I'm really excited about it. This is like something that I've just wanted to do for years and years and years and just got brave enough or stupid enough. I don't know how to do it. But yeah, I'm so excited about it. And I like I said, I think it's helped me. I didn't know what I wanted to have happen to me after I passed away. And now I do know what I want, right? Which is um, I actually want a green burial. I want a total natural burial.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

Okay, my mom is that the where they put you in the shroud, and they basically okay, my mom told me about that. And I said the same thing. Yeah.

unknown 45:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

I think I convinced my mom to do it too, which is which is kind of cool. Yeah. So that that feels really good to me. I really want to do that. Um, but yeah, I'm learning about all these different ways that people find honor in bury like speaking of India, they do sky burials a lot, where the highest form of honor is actually to put you on this giant platform in the sky and have vultures come meet you. And that is like a very honorable death for them. And right for us, for me, I'm like, oh God, that sounds barbaric. Like, I don't think that's another thing. I was like, nope, not that one. But you know, that's there's stuff like that all over that that's how they do it. Yeah, it's been fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

What started you down that journey of just wanting to write about death?

SPEAKER_01 46:09

Yeah, so I'm really open about this. So I I have a genetic kidney disease, and where as long as I can remember, even being a little kid, I've been aware of mortality. I was kind of like, I don't know if you remember how Billy Crystal was sort of obsessed with death and when Harry met Sally, like always talking about it. That was kind of me. Yeah, that was kind of me, even at a young age. And so yeah, I just always had this ticking clock. And I always was like, How am I using my time? How am I using my time? And um, and I realized it was because I was so terrified of dying. I was so fearful of dying. And I thought, well, this won't do. I don't want to my whole life afraid. Um, and so then I just started to get curious and talk to people and and connect and learn about these stories. And it's become a pretty incredible thing for me. And I hope that it also helps other people. I mean, I think it's even hard to talk about death. A lot of times when you bring it up, everybody thinks you need to get really sober and serious, and I'm still gonna do it with humor and wear my glitter in pink whenever I, you know, talk about it publicly. And I'm fascinated, in fact, by I watched a lot of videos of comedians talking about death because they're comedians, they can say things that you can't in normal conversation. And I thought that was so interesting, kind of seeing how they would handle these very delicate subjects and and how relieved people seem to be able to communicate about it in a this lighter way. So yeah, I think I've just learned so much from this. And I I again I hope that other people get that same result, that they feel, you know, less heavy about it and and open to talking about it.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

Uh what's the healthiest way that people can maybe uh perceive death?

SPEAKER_01 48:02

That's a hard one because again, there is so much fear and stigma around it. But uh one of the things that has really helped me actually is a meditation that you can do around death, which is uh visualizing and uh and doing a meditation where you're actually seeing your own funeral and you're seeing your body. And and what this does is it gets your brain just kind of used to and understanding the idea that this is the outcome, right? And death is the great equalizer. Like you said it earlier, you nobody is getting out of this alive. Everybody's gonna die. And so the sooner you can sort of help your brain, your consciousness understand that this is something that you can accept, the sooner that fear starts to fall away. And so I think for a lot of people, there's two great fears about death. One is how you're gonna die, is it gonna be painful, that kind of thing. That's not so much what we're talking about in this book. And that is a whole other, you know, kind of beast in and of itself. But the other thing is, will I have done everything I want to do in my life before I die? Will my life have meaning before I die? And these are the kinds of conversations that you can't wait until you're 60 or 70 or at the end of the runway to start having with yourself. They're conversations that you need to start having now. And so that practice of memento more. I'm gonna have a chapter actually in my book about that, about reminders of mortality. There's little helpful tips you can do to remind yourself that my time is limited. And that's not a bad thing. That's an enriching thing. That makes it even the more sweet and beautiful to appreciate the life you have now.

SPEAKER_00 49:43

I think that's so important. Because that's really what it comes down to, you know, like when you're on your deathbed or you're having those last moments to be able to say, I was able to mend this relationship or I was able to experience this in my life, or this became more important to me. I was able to figure this out or whatever, and not have a list of regrets, right? I think that's like the ultimate goal. And um, I can't wait for that book to come out. I'm super intrigued about it. So when whenever the title is released, yeah. Hopefully, you'll blast it all over social media so we can all repost it and share it and hopefully Oh, I will.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

Yeah, I have no idea, like I have no idea if 20 people will buy it or you know, two million. Obviously, I'm hoping for two million. But um, this experience of just making it has been reward enough in itself. But I do hope that it helps people and and at least starts a a dialogue and a discussion. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:48

Yeah. I would love to have you back on when the book comes out so that we can talk more in depth about this because this is such an intriguing and important topic, I think. Yeah, I would love that. I would absolutely love that. Do you think there's common themes that sort of connect all of us regardless of our backgrounds?

SPEAKER_01 51:06

Yeah, I I think, you know, my husband, one of his favorite quotes forever has been, we have more in common than we do different, you know. And um, when you strip away a lot of the stuff, right, it's like an external circumstances and societal pressures and everything. Like, yeah, we all we all want to feel safe. We all want to be loved, we all want to protect and provide for our families. Like those are all really basic core human things that we want. And and despite everything I've been through, I still tend to believe that most people are good by nature. And and so I think I think what I see a lot of times when I meet a lot of people is they might not know their place in the world, and that's okay, but everybody seems to be searching for a purpose and for meaning. And that's one of the things that has really inspired me because uh your meaningful life could look different than my meaningful life and could look different than all of your listeners' version of a meaningful life. And it takes all of us to kind of do our own self-inner work to find what that what that definition of meaning is, and then this is where the part that connects everybody, and then not judge other people for what their definition of a meaningful existence is. You know, it's that simple.

SPEAKER_00 52:31

Yeah. And I think that everybody's on their own journey, right? And I think that's what makes it such a beautiful thing. If we just allow people to have their own journey and like you said, to not judge the world, can be such a beautiful place if we just allow that space for people.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

Yeah, I think that's the gift, maybe, of even coming out of a religion, like what we've gone through is, you know, I was at some point super judgy, which is weird to think about, right? I was constantly casting judgment and coming out of it, being on the other side of it, I have such now a deep love and appreciation and openness and acceptance for people of all walks of life. And I don't know that I would have that deep-rooted of of a center on that if I hadn't been through what I had been through and taught in the church to know that that's not what I want to be, you know.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

Yeah. Uh same way. Do you ever have to catch yourself in a moment of judgment?

SPEAKER_01 53:34

I don't think recently, but I feel like in my 20s that was a thing where it really was like, in fact, I even I feel like I even remember for a year my my word of the year was awareness because I would just kind of make these snap decisions or have these snap thoughts about people. And I kept having to stop and go, wait, do I really think that? Or is this just what I've absorbed and like how I was taught? And I had to start making that separation for myself. And eventually, you know, you get to the place where you don't have to take 10 minutes to figure out what the judgment is. But yeah, I think in my 20s, that was a that was effort. That was a lot of effort to kind of untrain my brain to do that.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

Yeah, because I mean you're deprogramming, you're like, is this something that I was taught or is this something that I actually believe?

SPEAKER_01 54:26

Yeah, I'll give you an example. So, like the guy that I dated um and ended up marrying out of college, he was a rave DJ. And my parents were like, Oh, that's devil music, and like, oh, this is so, you know, and so like I go, I'm going in for like a lot of the first times, and I'm like, oh, these people are really bad, you know, and I'm saying all this stuff, and then I'm like, these are just kids. Some of them are are lost and probably need a little love and guidance, but some of them just really want to have fun and dance, wear cute things, and like this, you know, there's no devil here. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

I know it's like the for the very first concert I went to, because I wasn't allowed to go to concerts, and I certainly wasn't allowed to listen to rock music. Um, I laugh now, but and sorry for all of you who are nickelback fans, but it was nickelback. I remember like excited but really nervous to go into the arena because I'm like, what if there's this mob, mosh pit, whatever, and I get caught up in this? And what if I get injured? It's gonna be God judging me for going to this concert, and I was really, really nervous. Turns out I had a great time, and then I was like, the concert's moving forward. But there was that initial angst, like, oh my gosh, what if something bad happens? It's going to be because God is judging me for doing this right now.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

That's a constant think though. I mean, one of the things that I I think I realized was like, I was so much more fearful when I was in that in that church setting. Like everything made me afraid. I was so terrified all the time of doing something wrong, of saying something wrong, of yeah, God thinking badly of me, you know, it was just constant. And now it's like, whoa, I could breathe.

SPEAKER_00 56:17

Yes. Oh my gosh, it's so true. Um, so did you ever have a time where you went back into Christianity just to kind of test the waters a little bit, say maybe go to like a non-denominational church or something like that? I did. Yeah, I did. So did I? Yeah. I feel like that's common.

SPEAKER_01 56:38

I know. And I, you know, to his credit, I thought I liked the pastor. I didn't, you know, I but I just couldn't, it was just cringy. I just didn't like being in that setting. Uh you brought up funerals, and I get triggered at funerals a lot. I think that's just a common thing after coming out of a religion like this. Yeah, every time I go to a funeral, I'm like, okay, I may might need to take a zaddics just so I like.

SPEAKER_00 57:08

Yes, exactly. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Especially if it's like a funeral of a bunch of church people that I knew from back in the day, and they're all like coming up to me and asking about my life and if I'm in church and what I'm doing now. And it's like, oh I'm like anxiety attack. Yeah, no, thanks.

SPEAKER_01 57:30

Yeah, I know. I had I actually had a big anxiety attack when my grandmother died because that was the first time all the family got together. Oh, wow. They kind of set it up like an old church service. And I just remember I just went in the car and it was like, I can't, like, I can't do this. Um, but yeah, it is it is interesting because so I, you know, I won't get into too much, but like I have other practices now that definitely don't agree with evangelical Christians. And, you know, they'll sometimes reach out to me and and be like, I'm so worried for your soul. And I think maybe the reason you're getting sick is because you're doing, you know, these things. And there's that flare of like, how dare you? But then there's also this like, I know where they're coming from. They're they're thinking that they're helping and trying to be kind so and show care. But it's really hard because yeah, it's just it's one of those things of like, how sad that you think God would punish me because I'm doing something like this, you know, and and you don't understand it, and I get that, but like that's that's not how God works. And I'm sorry you still think that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 58:40

Yeah, that's how their God works. And I I try to tell people that when I deconstructed, I I definitely made that distinction of the God that I was taught is not the God who I believe in. I I believe that God is love and God doesn't want suffering and pain and all of those things. Of course, like you mentioned, you know, humans are human and we get in the way of things and things happen and life happens, and we have a mortal body. So, of course, things are going to happen health-wise eventually to all of us. None of us are getting out of here alive. So, um, it's one of those things I had to reframe for sure. That was like one of the fundamental things I had to reframe was what did I believe about God? And now I just have, like you mentioned, you just you have so much more peace now. You're more free and relaxed than you've ever been. Like you can actually sleep at night now, or I can totally relate to that as well. Um, do you ever have Christians reach out to you and ask about your journey, or do you kind of keep that sort of private? Okay, you'll get a kick out of this.

SPEAKER_01 59:54

So I was an actor for like, I don't know, 20 years. Nothing big, just like independent film. But one of the biggest films that I did was actually um a faith-based film, and it was called New World Order. Okay. For years and years, I would have people that would watch that film, and they'd come onto my Instagram or, you know, wherever they would find me and expect me to be this glowing Christian example. And they'd see who I was now, and they'd be like, Oh my God, what happened to you? The devil has claimed you, and like all that stuff. And so that's mostly what I got. And the reason for that is because I like I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, I haven't been very public about this transition. Like people that are in my close circle know this story about me, but I'm just now starting to speak out about it. And and I do hope that people reach out if they're genuinely curious and they want to connect and talk about this. If you have judgment to share, you know, uh, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:59

But um, yeah, I just use it as content. Like if somebody says something like that to me, I just take a screenshot and I'm like, cool, I'll use this as content later and blast them.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:10

I mean, yeah, I think I would do that now, but but yeah, back in the day I was like um, because I was a corporate journalist for a long time, and so I I had to be very like on my best behavior on social media. And so, you know, I would just kind of store it away. But yeah, it was it got really funny because yeah, it was like these hardcore, yeah, evaluant evangelical Christians would reach me and we're just like horrified that I wasn't that I wasn't role of the channel.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:38

I love I love the judgmental comments because I I get the whole like you were never really a Christian. It's like, oh, okay. And I had one guy say, I'm really concerned for your salvation. I'm like, yeah, well, once saved, always saved. Like then, right? I don't I'm not I'm not worried.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

So yeah, yeah, I know. I like I said, I have gotten that because like people have known me from both versions of my life, and so you know, I think I think there always is that I'm worried about your salvation, but you know, it's it's I think yeah, that's always an appropriate response. It's like, well, I'm sorry you are because I'm not, and you know, we're all okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:19

That's yeah, we're all okay. It's fine. I'm okay. I'm more than okay. Are you okay though?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:26

I know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:27

I know. So you are the founder of Stronger Today. Explain to the listeners what that is.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:36

Yeah. So in 2019, I left corporate journalism. I was managing a lot of their digital content, which actually over at USA Today, and I started my own marketing firm. So I work with typically small, mid-sized businesses, and we do social media management, marketing, digital marketing. But my my strength is really storytelling. So kind of how to show up um as a brand, as a storyteller and really make connections in the digital space with people to hopefully convert, obviously, and get sales. But I work with a lot of kind of mission-led clients, people that, you know, really have something that they care about that they're trying to bring out in the world. So I did just actually open up my my roster again. So I am taking clients right now. So yeah, if you need any of those kinds of services, let me know.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:24

Yeah. Especially as a podcast. I'm I'm doing it all on my own right now. So it's a little overwhelming. And that's kind of, yeah. Yeah. As I grow, I'm I'm definitely gonna reach out to you for some guidance at some point. So um before we wrap up, is there anything that you would like to leave with the listeners today?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:48

I think what I just want to say, like from the heart, is that if you're just leaving religion, like I I actually have two really good friends that you talked about earlier, too, that have just left uh the Mormon church and they are in this space of everything feels scary, but everything also feels exciting. And, you know, they're kind of discovering a new way of existing in the world. And that's a very normal thing to feel. And I think that's what I want to say is that whatever you feel is normal, however long it takes you to work through stuff is normal. Like there's no right or wrong way to do this. And there are people that can help you through it. Like I mentioned, there are therapists that specialize in religious trauma. There are groups that you can go meet up with. But I would caution against people that constantly stay in the victim mindset and really start working towards what do you want your life to look like now? And that that really is the important question. What do you want your life to look like now? What do you want your relationship to God look to look like now? Do you want a relationship with God? And and whatever that answer is, it's okay. But you know, it's really stepping into that power for yourself, maybe for the first time, to make those decisions. And and I hope that that's an empowering thing for people. I don't I don't know that I had any huge, I'm ritually doing this first thing. I just feel like it was a bunch of small discoveries and kind of small things that I started allowing myself to do or to read or to say or to think that I was just never, you know, allowed myself to do before. And eventually you look back and you're like, wow, I'm a completely different person after all of those allowances, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:42

Yeah.

unknown 1:05:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:43

I had a guest on recently, actually, she's a sex therapist, and she came out of actually the same cult that I came out of. And one of the analogies that she made was when you're in that environment, it's like being Handed a palette of primary colors. And you think that's all you have to work with. But then when you get out, you get a palette of every color that's imaginable. And you can paint whatever picture you want, but you don't know that until you're out because you think all there is is the primary colors. And you're like, okay, well, this is what I got to work with. Then you get out and it's like, oh my gosh, the world is a beautiful place. I can experience things that I was taught were evil, but I'm actually enjoying them and they're not evil and they're not harming me. And they're not, you know, gonna send me to hell or what have you. And just like the concert experience, yeah. Or going out for a drink with your friends, or wearing a spaghetti strap dress. Yeah. No, I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:51

I I think that's really is I my life, my world, even my experience with God is so much more expansive. And that is the word that I use a lot. My my my world just feels so expansive since I let go of that type of religion. And you know, I think it's beautiful. I think it's a beautiful, a beautiful thing. And I know it's not religion, but there's a book that's really popular right now. It's called Yesteryear. Have you heard about this book? You you should read it because there's this at the I'm not giving anything away, I don't think. Um, but at the very end of the book, it's a daughter basically writing her mom a letter who essentially had her in a cult-like situation and environment. And she's just kind of telling her mom, like, you know, I'm so sorry that you were so scared of this world and didn't want to be a part of it because I'm in it now, and it is the most beautiful, exquisite thing. But I want to, I want to be a part of all of it. I want to experience all of it. And that's kind of how I I felt. And that's kind of how I feel, you know. And I feel like I've been able to step out of that and create this much bigger world for myself. And I'm grateful for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:09

And it's like you mentioned earlier, you're able to give other people grace that maybe leave a negative comment because you've been there, and you're also like, I kind of feel bad for them because they're stuck in that mindset and they haven't experienced the beauty of what this world has to offer and life has to offer. And and maybe we can reflect on that and say, you know, when we're upset at our family members or upset at our friends who are still in it, and they just haven't seen the light, so to speak, that we were there once too, and um, to give them a little grace as we were able to give ourselves, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:46

Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And and that's kind of just how I feel about everything about politics, about religion, about how you just show up in the world. You let me do me, I'll let you do you. And nobody has to go to war over it, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:03

Yeah. Melissa, where can people find you? Um, I'm super accessible actually on Instagram. So you can you can find me on the Melissa Farley on Instagram. My show is uh at On the Morning Show. We are based out of Arizona. We say we're local obsessed, so it is all geared towards Arizona. But yeah, you can also reach me via email, and probably the easiest one for that is hello at onthemorningshow.com. Okay, awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:31

Well, I so appreciate you coming on today. This has been fun and it's been great getting to know you. Yeah, thank you so much. This has been really cool. Thank you for joining us for this conversation with Melissa Farley. If today's episode resonated with you, please be sure to check out the morning show, where Melissa and her co-hosts sit down with people from all walks of life to explore their unique stories and experiences. Before we wrap up, Melissa also shared about her work as the founder of Stronger Today, a social media branding and marketing company that helps small businesses and brands strengthen their online presence and tell their stories effectively. As you heard in this episode, Melissa is currently working on a book exploring the subject of death and the mystery that surrounds it. While the title hasn't been released yet, you'll definitely want to keep an eye out for it. You'll find the links to the morning show, Stronger Today, and ways to connect with Melissa in the show notes. Until next time, stay curious, keep asking questions, think for yourself, and never stop searching for the truth. The answers may not always be comfortable, but the pursuit of truth is always worth it. Thank you for listening. Before we close out, I just want to share a quick reminder. The stories told on this podcast are personal experiences and perspectives. They're shared to create awareness and connection, not as medical, legal, or mental health advice. Some of the conversations here focus on abuse, trauma, and other heavy topics. So please take care of yourself while listening. It's always okay to pause, skip an episode, or step away if you need to. And if anything we talked about brings something up to you, we encourage you to reach out to a trusted professional or support resource. You don't have to carry any of this alone.