You left religion. Now who are you? | Audra Phelps

Leaving a religious system can change far more than what you believe. It can force you to question your identity, your values, your relationships, your role as a parent, and even your understanding of who you are.

In this episode of Unholier Than Thou, I’m joined by Audra Phelps, who works with former Mormon mothers navigating life beyond the structures and expectations of the LDS Church.

We talk about one of the most overlooked parts of religious deconstruction: rebuilding your identity after you've spent years being told who you're supposed to be.

Who are you when your religion no longer defines you?

How do you figure out which parts of yourself are genuinely yours?

What happens when the roles, rules, and expectations you've built your life around suddenly don't fit anymore?

And how do you begin creating a life based on your own values, choices, and sense of self?

Audra shares her perspective on identity, motherhood, religious conditioning, self-discovery, and the process of becoming the person you were never given permission to be.

If you've ever questioned your faith, walked away from a religious system, or found yourself wondering "Who am I now?" after deconstruction, this conversation is for you.

Connect with Audra:
Links to Audra's website, social media, and RECLAIMED program can be found in the show notes.

If you enjoyed this episode, like, follow, subscribe, and leave a review. And share this episode with someone who is trying to figure out who they are on the other side of religion.

Unholier Than Thou Podcast is about questioning the narratives we inherited, challenging our assumptions, and giving ourselves permission to think for ourselves...without fear, shame, or apology. #ReligiousDeconstruction #ExMormon #MormonDeconstruction #LeavingReligion #ReligiousTrauma #Deconstruction #UnholierThanThou

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Welcome back to the Unholier Than Thou podcast. Today, we're talking about something that can be incredibly difficult to untangle. What happens when you leave a high-control religious environment, but the guilt, fear, expectations, and conditioning don't leave with you. My guest today is Audra, a coach who works specifically with former Mormon mothers, helping them untangle lingering guilt, rethink the beliefs and patterns they've inherited, and rebuild the sense of identity beyond the structures of the LDS Church. Through her reclaimed program, Audra helps women move from simply leaving something behind to actually figuring out who they are on the other side of it. We're going to talk about religious conditioning, motherhood, shame, identity, self-trust, and what it really takes to reclaim your life after you've spent years being told who you're supposed to be. And if you're new here, make sure you like, subscribe, and follow the podcast so you don't miss future conversations about deconstruction, religious trauma, questioning the narratives we inherited, and giving ourselves permission to think for ourselves. So let's get started. What led you to begin working with former Mormon mothers?

SPEAKER_01 1:44

You know, when I left the church, it was a really lonely time for me. I had lost a lot of friends, I had lost a lot of families. I was going through a lot of grief, but not just grief for a loss of community, but also grief for loss of self. And I also had a lot of mom guilt because I was raising kids at the time. And I was so used to having a blueprint for everything, for every life decision and looking for an external authority that I couldn't make sense of everything that was happening at once, all those emotions at once. And so I know how lonely and confusing that time is. And so when I, one of the big questions that I asked myself after doing a lot of reconstructing of my life and discovering who I am, one of the big questions I asked myself was, am I really in a career that is a career that I still choose today? Because I chose the career of going into education as a young Mormon mom when that was the most benign job a Mormon mom could have was to be a teacher, because it still allowed me to be with my kids. And so when I took a deep dive there, I actually had a coach that I was working with. And I said, you know, the parts of my current career that I love is working with students when they come into my classroom and they would, you know, download onto me, or or when I moved into administration and parents would come to me and, you know, be seeking parenting advice and how to best support their kids. That was the part of my job I really loved. So I'm thinking about doing some kind of coaching or parenting coaching. And my coach said to me, Well, what demographic do you want to work with? Like, ah, I don't really know. And then she said, Have you ever thought of working with other ex-Mormon moms? And as soon as she said that, like I had this full body visceral reaction and I burst into tears. And I was like, that is it. That is it. Because I know exactly how they feel when they leave. And I wish I had had someone at that time, 11 years ago, to say, hey, I got you. Let's let's walk. I'll walk through this with you. And I had done so much work to reclaim my identity, to figure out who I was and what I wanted. And I knew I could help other moms do that as well. So that's what led me to start working with ex-Mormon moms.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

That's amazing. So you were in Mormonism for how long?

SPEAKER_01 4:23

I left when I was 35 years old and I was born and raised in it. So, you know, I was raised in a very strict Mormon household. I didn't grow up in Utah, which is like the epicenter of Mormonism, but I was born there. But then my family relocated to Southern California when I was four years old. And that's because my father worked for the church. He worked for their education division, which was called Church CES Church Educational Systems. And that the CES ran the church's seminary and institute programs. So seminary is like what high school kids attend early in the morning. If you're not living in Utah, it's early in the morning before you go to high school and it's all religion classes. And then institute is like religion classes for young adults. And so my father ran that the seminary and institutes in Southern California. So that's why we lived there, or that's why we left Utah and moved to California. So even though I was in California, I was definitely very much in the Mormon bubble. You know, because one thing Mormons are really good at is their community and their social structure. And you always have an activity to go to. And it creates this like us versus them mentality of, you know, like, oh, we're we're a little bit better than them. We have the full truth. We have more faith. And it's our job to convert them to our others, to our way of life. Right. So really the Mormon faith is so much more than just a religious belief in God. It's your entire identity. You're told who you are from the moment that you're born. You're told who to follow, which is the prophet, because Mormons have a living prophet that they believe in. You're told what to eat, what to drink, and your entire life is prescribed for you. You know exactly where you're going. You know exactly that you know you're going to get married. And for women, at least, the expectation is you're going to get married and you're going to have kids and you're going to be a mother in heaven. And all of the indirect messaging that comes with that. And so when you leave, when I left at 35, it was, I didn't know how to think for myself because I had been taught to distrust myself for my whole life. Because if I doubted something, like hindsight looking back, even as a kid, I was the one in Sunday school, like that doesn't make any sense, you know. But I was always told, Oh, you just don't have enough faith. You need to pray more and you need to read your scriptures, and the Lord works in mysterious ways, and your doubts are sinful. And so if you're feeling those doubts, it's because you haven't made your will the Lord's will. So as a small child, I learned that my feelings were not important and to distrust them and always be looking to an external authority to give me permission to do anything.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Yeah. A lot of the listeners right now can relate to you, including myself. In these high-control religious organizations, that is what you're taught. It is don't trust yourself. We were given even scripture that they would claim was talking about, you know, don't trust your heart, lean not into your own understanding. His ways are higher than our ways. I mean, all of those things just reverberate through us anytime we have a thought like, oh, I'm going to try something new or I'm going to do this. And it's like, should I call the pastor and ask him if this is okay? You know, all of those things, which I'm sure you can relate to as well. Um, and it's really, really hard to come out of that mindset. Even when you leave, it takes years to reach in yourself. And in a lot of times, and I've talked to other therapists and had other therapists on this podcast that have talked about the fact that your brain may be saying at this point, you can trust yourself. You look at where you've come, you've gone from here to here, you've made good decisions, and you're kind of telling yourself, and maybe you don't have as much anxiety anymore. But sometimes your body takes a little bit more time to catch up. You may have a visceral response to something that you're like, where is this coming from? Right. Yes, yes. It's very real. Deconstruction is not something that happens overnight. It took me 20 years to even talk about my story publicly. And just like you mentioned when you were encouraged to help other Mormon mothers and you had that reaction, that was that's sort of why I started this podcast. Cause I'm like, I I've I've been a pastor's daughter my whole life. I was born and raised into that. And so now that I'm out, I feel like it is my calling, my duty to help other people through their own deconstruction, because I didn't have anybody either. It was like, okay, well, I guess I'm gonna figure this out on my own. You know, so I I applaud you and I think it's wonderful that you're doing this, especially for women in a community that you came from, so that you are relatable to them because I know, like you mentioned, it's so insulary. So you you're trustworthy to these people, I'm sure, because they're like, she knows what it's like to be on the inside. Whereas somebody like me, they'd be like, maybe they would tune into my podcast, but they're not gonna be like, I'm going to her for all the answers, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

Yeah, exactly. You know, when I left, I didn't, this was 11 years ago. And at the time, I didn't know anyone else who had left. And also at the time, I I had was living overseas. So I wasn't, I was out of the Mormon bubble, which was one thing that gave me perspective and courage to be able to leave. But because of that physical separation and then not knowing anyone else who had left, I was trying to talk to my friends about, you know, gosh, my parents just found out I've left and this is what I'm struggling with, and I don't know how I feel about this. And they didn't get it. Like they just didn't understand why it was such a struggle. And I even had a friend of mine at the time, she was French. She didn't know anything about the Mormon church. I was the first Mormon she'd ever met. And I was talking to her about all of my struggles with leaving and the grief and dealing with family. And she said to me, Audra, it sounds like you're leaving ISIS. And I was like, wow, you know, actually, I think it is a lot like that. But I also found as I was trying to explain myself to people about what I was going through, not only was I having to explain my own emotions, but then I was having to also explain the church at the same time. And it got really confusing and it was exhausting. And then I also found some of that old conditioning that you were talking about that still pops up. Like even though I knew I had left, when I would have to backtrack and give them some information about the church, I was almost defending the church and defending the beliefs that I had. And then it was really confusing to me because I was instantly back in that pattern of making excuses for the church, but then while also telling them why I was leaving. So it's it's really important, I think, to talk to someone who has left the same faith and you know the jargon and you know the beliefs, and you sang the song same songs in church, and you did the same activities, and you can really understand each other without an explanation.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Yeah. But isn't it interesting though to get a perspective from someone who wasn't raised that way? And that probably was like a big slap across the face. This is what this person is seeing this similar to ISIS. It's like, what? Yes, that was probably a big shock for you. So I'm curious as to what led you to start questioning Mormonism and then eventually to leave.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

You know, for me, it was a very slow erosion, a very slow erosion. I was, you know, I mentioned I was I knew that I was questioning things as a kid, but I would just push it back down. But the time I I consciously was questioning for about 10 years before I actually left. You know, and that was it started with just like things they would talk about in church that I was like, oh, that gives me a really bad feeling. And I got married really young. I was only 20 years old when I got married. Um, I had only known him for six months. This is a very typical Mormon story, by the way, to get married young and not know each other for very long.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

But um was it an arranged marriage?

SPEAKER_01 14:08

No, Mormons don't do arranged marriages, um, but it's very much the expectation, and there's not a lot of emphasis on like getting to know the person before you get married to make sure that you're, you know, really compatible and in love. And it's a lot more about for women, just find a returned missionary who can take you to the temple. Like those are your only requirements of a husband. So I got married young. Now, very luckily for me, we're still happily married 25 years later, but it doesn't work out that way for everyone. But anyway, I got married young and then started having kids right away. So I was 22 when I had my first child. And fast forward a little bit after I'd had three kids, we were living in Boise, Idaho at the time. And I was a stay-at-home mom because I was told that that was my divine role was to be at home with the kids, even though I desperately wanted to work. I was told, no, you need to be at home. And I was really struggling when my youngest was about four with severe anxiety, where I was having panic attacks almost every day and really depressed. And at the time, I couldn't figure out why, because I was doing everything that the church was telling me was going to bring happiness. I was fulfilling my divine role, I was raising kids, I was reading my scriptures, I was going to church, I was praying, I was literally fulfilling every expectation that I was given. And yet I couldn't stop hyperventilating at night before I went to bed. And I couldn't understand why. And I tried a lot of different things. I tried antidepressants, and I those were those didn't work well for me. They work well for some people, they did not work well for me. The side effects for me were not good. So I knew I then had to come off of them. And I so I started looking at like exercise groups, and then I started to find these friends that were not Mormon, that I was like training groups, and I started to see what real open, honest relationships were not based on a shared religious belief, not based on a certain life expectation, not based on judgment or perfection, but like a real honest relationship. And so that that taught me a couple things. In hindsight, I can see that that anxiety and those panic attacks was my body screaming at me that I was living in a life that was not aligned with who I was. But I didn't recognize it for that at the time. And then the experience of, you know, having friends who were like real genuine friendships, I started to look at the relationships I had in the church and how superficial they were, and how I always felt like I had to really hide my thoughts and hide who I was, and I couldn't be open because I would be judged for it. So then I also had this experience where since I was a stay-at-home mom, um, and my husband was an elementary school teacher, we were really poor. And so even though I was doing all the things the church told me that I needed to do as a righteous woman, we went to the church and we asked for financial help. And the church is very good at that. That's something they're very good at, helping their own. And so as long as you're paying your tithe, right? Exactly. Still had to pay 10%. Yeah, they're gonna go back and look. So really, I'm just getting my money back, right? Yeah. So we went to the church, but one of the things that they have, which a lot of people who are not in the church don't realize, is they have this thing called a bishop's storehouse, which is basically a Mormon grocery store for the poor. So you have the Relief Society president, so she's the head of like the woman's organization at the church. She comes to your house and she goes through your cupboards. And yeah, every week she goes through your cupboards to see what is she looking for? Well, she's helping you make a grocery list, but really she's making the list for you because then you take this list to the bishop's storehouse and then you can pick up food to take home to feed your family. But in my experience, I didn't get to choose what the food was. So I have this woman that I didn't know coming into my house, going through my cupboards. I mean, I was humiliated. I felt so small. And it wasn't that I wasn't grateful for the help, but it was like I just felt so dependent, you know? And then you take this form that she had filled out for you with all the checked items that you can get from the bishop's storehouse. And I go and there's another woman there, and I give her the form, and I have my three little kids, and I say, I'm here to get the food. And she looks at the form and she says, Oh, you're missing the bishop's signature. Oh, I'm I'm sorry. I didn't, I thought the relief society president got the signature. I didn't notice. Can you call? And she was like, No, and she just hands me the form and she's like, You're gonna have to go find the bishop and get a signature and then come back when you have the signature. And I like I turned and walked away, and I packed my three little kids in our old station wagon, and I sat down in the front seat and I just burst into tears. And what that taught me, that taught me that I was never going to be dependent on anyone else again. That I was living a life that was dependent on the church. It was dependent on my husband, I was doing everything right, and still I had completely lost myself and I never wanted to feel that way again. So from that moment, I made the resolve to go back to school and get my degree and have a career because I I knew after going through the anxiety and depression, trying all these things to make it work, having this experience of feeling so dependent on the church just for survival, I knew that I could find a way to be independent on my own. So I was strong enough to say, I'm gonna go to school and get a career, which was already a little bit like not really what the church was telling me to do. Right. But I wasn't quite strong enough to choose a career that really was a hundred percent my own choice. So that's why I went into teaching. I really liked science. So I thought, okay, I'll be a biology, high school biology teacher, because teaching meant that I had the same schedule as my kids. I could still be a mom. I they didn't have to go into daycare. I could fulfill my divine role as a mother while also being a teacher. So the process of leaving for me is you know, you can't go from A to Z. You have to basically take each letter at a time. And so that was kind of a slow progress into me slowly stepping away, slowly going against the guidelines I was told, slowly learning that I could be independent, slowly learning to listen to myself. And then we, since my husband and I were now both teachers. Teachers, we found out about the world of international teaching. And we thought this is going to be a great opportunity for our family because we knew that we wanted our kids to have this very broad worldview. We wanted them to experience the world, but we couldn't afford to do it as teachers. So we both got jobs in Kazakhstan, which is not a country that most people know about or would even move to. Yeah. Okay. Where is that at? Um yeah, just south of Russia. Russia. Okay. Just south of Russia. Yeah, exactly. So it's a post-Soviet country. Yeah. Okay. Um, so we moved to Kazakhstan. Total, I mean, talk about culture shock, but what that experience did for me was I had the physical separation from the church. You know, that saying you can't see the forest for the trees. That was it. Like I was in the minutia of it every day. I had, you know, if I didn't go to church on Sunday, I had the elders corn president showing up saying, Where have you been? You know, like I was so in it that I couldn't really see it objectively. And so moving overseas to a country where they didn't even know the word Mormon, I could really start to understand my feelings and my thoughts. I could see the church for what it was. I could start to see some of this indirect messaging that I had received, well, direct and indirect messaging about my identity and who I was, and starting to really listen to my body and myself and my intuition, going, I don't agree with that. When you really analyze those words, I don't agree with that. So moving overseas gave me that physical separation, that ability to see it objectively, but also what it gave me was exposure to so many different kinds of religions and people and faiths. And I remember going to like a Hindu temple and feeling like a like it was a spiritual sacred place and going to a Catholic church and seeing these, you know, dedicated congregation members and going to a Muslim mosque and going to a Zoroastrian temple. And it was like, wow. So Mormons are not the most dedicated people on the planet. We don't have a monopoly on God and spirituality and happiness. I see all these other people with a wide variety of beliefs, and they're actually happier than I ever was in the church. I'm kind of closer to the end of the alphabet at this point. Like I'm really starting to take these steps. And so then after being overseas for two years, the the very last step for me was the church came out with a statement in November 2015 that children of gay parents would be considered apostates and that they could not receive the blessings of the church. So the kids didn't have to be gay, they just had gay parents. Oh wow. And when that statement came out, the moment I read it talking about visceral reactions, I wanted to throw up. And I was like, that's not love, because they framed it as love, as protection of children, is how they framed it. And I immediately was like, that's not love, that's hate. And it's a direct contradiction to some of their other doctrines. They have this one doctrine, it's an article of faith that says man is not responsible for Adam's transgression, which basically means that you're only responsible for your own sins, not someone else's sins. And so I thought, well, that's a direct contradiction to their own doctrine, and it's based in hate. And because I had already had all of these other steps and all of these other experiences, and I was starting to see things objectively and starting to see that the world is a much broader place and starting to analyze how I felt about the church. When they came out with that statement and I had that full body visceral reaction, I remember this very clearly. I walked upstairs, I took off my garments because I was still wearing the Mormon temple underwear. I took off my garments, I looked at myself in the mirror and I said, I am not Mormon. And that was the, for me, that was like the statement I wasn't ready to say for a really long time because I am is that's your identity. Like that's the deepest level of you know, of your subconscious is your identity, who you are. When I said that, I am not Mormon, it was like with a hundred percent surety that I am not Mormon. And I I say it felt like when I said that it felt like the world just opened up into a million stars. Like I just felt so free when I said that.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

A lot of people that are listening, some of them may not even realize they're deconstructing because it's like they're still in it, but they're questioning. And then others are out and they've completely deconstructed their original faith. But one thing that you mentioned that I have mentioned multiple times is that taking yourself out of that community, that bubble that you were surrounded in, allowed you to see clearer. And that that's always my number one step for people that are deconstructing. Once you like if somebody calls me and says, What do I do? I'm questioning this, I'm questioning that. My first thing is step away from the church that you're in, at least for a period of time. So you can see, is this what you want to do or not? Because then you can start to see things a little bit clearer. I think also another thing that you mentioned is getting yourself surrounded with people who don't believe the same as you, because we are in this echo chamber and a lot of these religious, I call them cults. A lot some people agree, some people don't agree with that, but a lot of these religious cults, they isolate you and you're only really allowed to associate with people within that. Of course, you're gonna run into a person at a grocery store or somebody in line that's good at the post office or whatever. It's not that you're in a place where you can't have interaction with anyone outside of the religion, but as far as relationships go and people that you really associate with, you're pretty much isolated, right? And so I think having those interactions and relationships with people outside of that mindset is so important because just like the woman that you the French woman that you met that really gave you that clarity in saying, wow, this sounds like ISIS. And you were like, whoa. No one's ever said that to you before, right? Exactly. So you were able to see that from another lens, and I think that is so, so important when it comes to deconstruction. So I'm curious as to what was the hardest part of leaving for you? Was it reconstructing whatever theology that you wanted or faith? Was it the community? Was it the loss of something else? Was it your family dynamic? And also was your husband deconstructing at the same time?

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Yeah, my husband was deconstructing. I left before he did. So when I made that, when I said those words, I am not Mormon. I went straight downstairs afterwards and told him. I was like, I'm done. I'm 100% done. This and he, you know, we've had a very open communication in our relationship. We've always had a real mutual respect for each other's ideas, even if we disagree. And so he was the first one I told, and he really sought to understand. And he was just like, I can see that this is the right decision for you, and I respect that. And he said, I'm not there yet. And, you know, he had also been questioning, he had a lot of the same doubts, but he wasn't ready to make that final statement. And I said, Okay, fair enough. And he said, you know, I'm still gonna go, because even though in Kazakhstan there was a very small Mormon church that you could attend if you wanted to wear headphones for translation, because it was all in Russian. But he said, I might still keep going to church, and if the kids want to go, I'll take the kids and said, Okay, you know, that's that's fair, that's totally your decision. And then about a year later, he came to me and said it his was a was a much quieter process, but he came to me and said, I'm done. But for me, the hardest part of the reconstruction was so who am I then? I know what I'm not. I know I'm not Mormon, but I don't know who I am. But there was also so many beliefs, all of that programming from the time I was a child that were in there that you know was I call it my inner Mormon critic, was there determining my thoughts, my emotions, my behaviors, that it I still uncover a belief now, today, 11 years later, where I'm like, wait a second, where is that coming from? I don't think that's really coming from me. And so the the most difficult part, I would say there's two most difficult parts. One is, well, then who am I? And what do I even want? Because I've spent 35 years being who I'm told I'm supposed to be and being responsible for everyone else's happiness, because that's what I was told a good wife and a good mom did was she sacrificed herself for her kids, right? So who am I? What do I even want? And then the second hardest part was I started raising my kids in this religion, and I taught them that this was the one true way, the one true gospel. I was giving them that same conditioning that I was given. And how am I gonna tell them and how am I gonna move forward? Like I had a blueprint for parenting that was given to me from the church. I didn't even know the first step in now creating my own parenting roadmap. So I was trying to do both of those things at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yeah, that's heavy when we think about it. I mean, luckily, I was able to get out when my kids were still quite young, but I didn't even think about that aspect of it. I mean, that is a that's a very heavy load to have to carry. Yeah, because you're like, okay, I've been telling them their whole life that this is the truth. Now am I supposed to explain, you know. So how did you navigate that?

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Well, as a mom with a lot of mom guilt, at first my focus was just on the kids. I kind of put my own identity piece to the side for a minute because I was just totally focused on the kids. Now I realize, and the after 11 years of being out and doing my own work and the woman that I work with, that really you have to do the identity piece first. That's that's really the most important thing to start with. And then as you start to be comfortable in who you are and what you want, then that's going to translate to your kids and you can help your kids go through it. So I did it a little bit backwards. My experience was a little bit backwards than now what I coach people to do. But one of the first things I did was I was embarrassed to tell my kids. So before I had the really honest conversation with them, I thought, okay, if if I don't believe in the doctrine of the church, then I can rewrite everything. We can create a whole new moral compass. So we sat down as a family and we said, let's come up with a Phelps family mission statement. So that was kind of my first step into like, okay, what are we as a family then if we're not Mormon? And so the kids all came to the table with different values that they thought were important for everyone to have that made you a good person. And, you know, they said things like kindness and honesty. And we created this family mission statement together, all five of us. And then we painted it into this really cool mural with the different like statements on it. And and one of the parts of that family mission statement that I love the most was choose what you believe and allow others to do the same. And we have really as a family, when we're trying to navigate different decisions, life decisions or parenting decisions, we really do reflect back on that. Like, how does this align with those values that we said were core values for us? And so that was the first powerful step that we made as a family to kind of move forward. But then as you're in the thick of parenting, there's so many things that come up, and then that Mormon conditioning comes up, right? And so one thing I tell women a lot is pay attention to your body. If there's a decision you need to make or a parenting choice, or you know, some kind of a struggle, and you're starting to feel constrictive, like you feel like maybe you can't take a deep breath or something's on your chest. That's a sign that there's a belief there that's not aligning with you. And so, for example, we were living in Azerbaijan when my kids were in high school when they were teenagers. And Azerbaijan is in Eastern Europe, and the drinking age in Eastern Europe is 16. So it's totally legal, it's totally normal, it's part of the culture where if teenagers go out, I mean, they're not getting, you know, like knockout drunk, but they'll have a drink with their friends. And it's like it's it's no big deal. But I was raised as a Mormon where if you have one sip of alcohol, you're basically an alcoholic and you might as well start attending AA meetings.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

I mean, it was like, you know, there was a yeah, that's how I was raised too. And it, yeah, yep, same, same there. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

So when my daughter came to me and she said, you know, I'm gonna go out when she was 16. I'm gonna go out with my friends, and there, I just want you to know there's gonna be drinking there. And my first reaction was a little bit constrictive. And I was like, okay, am I feeling this constriction because there's a belief there somewhere, but I need to figure out if that belief is really mine. Do I really believe that her having a drink is a sin and it's gonna turn her into an alcoholic? Or is that a belief that was given to me? So recognizing your body because your body's telling you there's a belief there that's not aligning. And so you and then really digging, asking yourself these big questions. And there's very few life situations that need to be answered right away. Like you can always pause and delay answering a question, you know, even for just a few minutes before you respond. And and asking yourself these questions of what is the belief that's causing me to feel this way? And for, you know, I still had some kind of a belief about kids drinking at 16 and what consequence that would give, even though I was drinking alcohol at this point. So there was like still this conditioning in my subconscious, right? So, what is the belief there? Who gave me that belief? And really figuring out when I decided that belief and where it came from. And if it came from you, okay, then that's something that's aligned and you're feeling constricted because you're just not comfortable with your child going out and having a drink. But if it came from someone else, then okay, let's start poking some holes in it. So is this always true? Do I believe this is always true? Is there ever a time this is not true? So that it's not an absolute, right? It's not a truth that can't be shaken. If you start poking holes in it, then your your subconscious mind will start to rewire. And then you can say, okay, well, then if that's not always true, that's not an absolute belief for me, then what is a belief that I feel comfortable with? What is a belief that aligns with me? And then you choose a belief that starts to feel expansive and open, like you can take a deep breath and you're comfortable with it. And then you can start moving forward with that new belief. And so, so I went through that process actually with my husband and my daughter. Like, okay, let's go through this. Do we, you know, what do we think about drinking? What do we think is gonna happen? And and then once we kind of poked holes in it and we realized that we were feeling comfortable with it, we wrote some guidelines as a family of how we were gonna handle the kids going out to have a drink and when they should call us and all of those things. So you can start to build that parenting blueprint yourself once you learn how to really tune in and poke holes on those beliefs that are making you feel uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

And I think it's so important too to have those conversations with your kids, especially at that age in the teenage years where they're starting to experience more freedom and to give them those boundaries, but to give them liberty at the same time to say, hey, let's sit down and talk about this together and let's figure out maybe some rules, but allow you to do and explore some new things that we've never been allowed to do. And I think that when you come from such a high controlled environment like Mormonism or other cults that I talk about on the podcast, there's such a restriction for just normal everyday things. Like I know, even with Mormonism, y'all aren't even able to have coffee. I know. What the hell? Seriously.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

But I mean, I don't know. There's not that was that was one of the ones as a kid. I was like, but you can have coke. I don't get it.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. And then you have some religions that they'll allow people to partake in the communion with wine, which is alcohol, but then not allow people to drink wine in their own homes. It's like it just doesn't make any sense. It's that double standard, right? That you're you're not allowed to question it. You just have to accept it by faith. You just have to say, well, that's just the way that it is. And it's like, nope, I'm gonna challenge that. I'm gonna push back on that. And but I think that's such a great idea to do with your kids to sit down with them and say, hey, if they're questioning something, say, hey, let's talk about this. Maybe we can figure out a a good compromise, but have some guidelines set up so that you're still safe. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

So you started working, you talked to the one person who was encouraging you to start working with Mormon mothers and Mormon women. Yeah. When when did that start? What did that look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 42:14

I think to start off that story is to talk about how I got in touch with this coach who encouraged me to do this in the first place. Because, you know, I had mentioned that for me, I was I really when I first left, I really focused on the parenting piece and how am I gonna raise my kids? And I I didn't dive into who I was, I didn't know the importance of knowing my own identity first. And so it was actually it was about three years ago, and my youngest was starting to graduate from high school. So then it was like, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna be empty nesters. And wow, I really I'm not gonna have to always be thinking every day about what are the kids doing, what do the kids need, what's the best decision for the kids? I can start to make decisions for me. And I tell this, I'll I'll tell you a short story that kind of opened my eyes to this a little bit, that I wasn't really clear on my identity or what I wanted. So I was making Thanksgiving dinner, and I still had this like perfectionism, trad wife type mentality from my years as a Mormon mom. So everything's made from scratch. And so I'm making Thanksgiving pie, and you have to make the crust the night before, and I'm it's apple pie, and I'm peeling all the apples, and I'm finding myself really resentful. Like, oh, all this work. Oh, I don't even like apple pie. Why do I make apple pie? Well, I make apple pie because it's my husband's favorite. Well, what why don't I make my favorite kind of pie? And then it I realized I didn't even know what kind of pie I liked. Like, I mean, and that is such a simple example, but it really made me go, I have spent My entire married years taking care of my husband, making sure what he had, what he wanted, taking care of my kids, making sure what they had, what they wanted. I don't even know what kind of pie I like. And so that sent me into this, like this rabbit hole of what I call grieving the life unlived. So I really started to go, oh, okay, I made the decision to get married at 20 years old when I was young Mormon Audra. I made the decision to have kids, had my first at 22 when I was a righteous woman in heaven, building the kingdom of God. And now here I am in my mid-40s. And what would my life have been like? What would my life have been like if I got married later or married someone else? What would what kind of mom would I have been if I had kids later? What kind of career would I be in if I had chosen a career that was totally based on me? And the biggest one of those that I was grappling with, which is a very vulnerable thing to admit that I I know other women who have gone through this, but they're so afraid to vocalize it, is I'm married to this man who I love, but do I still choose him today? And I was really going back and forth because I didn't know and I didn't know how to make the decision. And I was stuck in frustration and resentment that I knew I didn't want to make a decision from that emotional place. I wanted to make a decision from a place of peace, but I didn't know how to get there. And I didn't even know what kind of pie I liked. So how could I make the decision on if I still chose my husband? And I found this coach. I stopped her on Instagram for a while, actually. And everything she said, I was like, wow, she's like in my brain, I swear. But she had a program that the whole purpose of the program was at the end, you make the decision of whether to stay or go in your marriage. And so, yeah, so I jumped in and I was like, this is what I need. I need someone to help me with this because I felt like a ping-pong ball on a ping pong table, like constantly going back, stay go, stay go, stay go, stay go. And I couldn't make sense of it. And what I learned through her program was the first thing you dive into is identity and nervous system regulation and emotional regulation and listening to your body and being so clear on who you are and what you want, that then you can start to make some of these bigger decisions. So it wasn't about making a pros and cons list of all the great things about my husband and all the things that drive me crazy and, you know, which one outweighs the other. It was about being so clear on who I am and where I was going moving forward that I can make a decision on whether that person aligned with that or not. And so that is where I then started to do that identity work that was so hard for me for so long. I had worked on the parenting piece for so long, and now I'm really doing the identity work and I'm observing my emotions and what can I learn from them. And so, like I mentioned at the beginning, at the end of that program when she was talking to me about what do you want to do? And I just had that visceral reaction. I want to work with other ex-Mormon moms. That's it. But I'm in a career, we're living overseas. I'm currently in Southeast Asia. There's no Mormons here, right? So, how do I, how do I find the people to work with? How do I reach the people who are there and I want to do it full time? So for the last year, I've wrapped up, I've been wrapping up my last school year here as a director in this small school. And I've been slowly building my coaching practice, meeting people online, largely through social media, through doing podcasts. And then I have a free masterclass that people can watch that walks you through the first five shifts that you need to make after leaving the Mormon church. And then people will re will reach out to me. And I have a program that takes them exactly through those things. It's a group and individual coaching program with a really clear curriculum where we go through learning to trust yourself again. And I can't ask you, you know, what career you want to be in, usually when you're first leaving, because you don't even know what you want for dinner. Right. You know, there's so many women, and you know, this this isn't exclusive to women who have left a high demand religion. This is just women in general in society, that you ask them what they want for dinner and they'll say, I don't know. What are you having? And so you have to start with those really small things first and then slowly learn how to listen to yourself, learning to trust yourself, learning how to pay attention to emotions, learning how to choose a better feeling emotion so you're not stuck in anger and resentment. And then you can take that forward into who you are, building a life, what kind of parent you're gonna be, and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

When you and I talked through email, you mentioned a program called Reclaim. Yeah, that's the one. Okay, so so that's the program that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

Yes, yes, okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:25

What what does reclaim stand for? And how did you develop that? Yeah, reclaiming yourself.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

Reclaiming yourself, absolutely. Because very cool, you know, leaving a high demand religion, you lose yourself, you distrust yourself, you push yourself down. Your wants and desires don't matter. Your wants and desires need to be changed to become one with God's. And your life is prescribed for you. Who you're going to be is told to you, what kind of mom you're gonna be is prescribed to you. And there's an illusion of choice, but there's really no choice. That's the plan given to you by God. That's how I was raised. And so when you leave the church, it's like you need to reclaim who you are. You need to remember from your earliest years the things that made you you. You need to take the good things that you learned about yourself through your time in the church and that experience. And, you know, you learn a lot through the grief and the pain and the experience and the being enlightened yourselves. What are the good things you now want to take into your future? And how can you reclaim yourself so that you are the only authority that matters and you're not looking for permission from anyone else?

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Hmm. What transformations have you seen in women who go through your program?

SPEAKER_01 50:56

I see confidence, number one. A lot of women, they just they come in and they're just they're embarrassed to speak up, they're they're not confident to make a decision that's totally their own. And I see them start to, as they start to realize what they want and they start to make those steps to have boundaries because you know, largely they've been just serving other people and and people are expecting that, right? But they start to get confidence to stand up for themselves and say what they will and won't do, and to release some of that people pleasing. That's a really big one, you know, is saying yes when your body's saying no and how to put yourself first. That's a huge transformation. And as women start to slowly do that piece by piece, then they start to see what real happiness can be like, happiness that comes from the inside, despite what's happening around them. That's that's really an amazing feeling. And then the other really big thing I see is their relationship with their kids. Because for many people who grew up in the Mormon church, they haven't seen modeled to them the kind of parent that they actually want to be, right? They know that the shame and the guilt that was put on them if they didn't follow a certain path or the disappointment, they were always, you know, a lot of guilt for maybe their parents feeling disappointed in them and the judgment that they would feel, and they don't want their kids to feel that. And so as they're starting to change their mindset and their identity, it also starts to shift their conversations with their kids. And it becomes this real deep relationship based on understanding each other for who we are, not on trying to convince your kids to do something a certain way or be or live a life that you're telling them will be the best life. And allowing them to have that freedom actually really creates a strong bond with your child.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

So when we had talked through email before the recording, you also mentioned neurolinguistic programming. Um, let's talk about that for a minute. What exactly is it for those who are not familiar?

SPEAKER_01 53:20

Yeah, so neurolinguistic programming is it's the type of coaching that I do that I've been trained in. And it's basically the language of your subconscious mind. So it's learning about the differences between your conscious and your subconscious and how your brain stores information, how those that conditioning and those patterns can become well-worn, but you can rewire it into a different belief and how those identities and beliefs really inform our thoughts, emotions, and behaviors, which is what we're feeling on the conscious level. But subconsciously, it's about making change at the identity, belief, and value level, because that's where real change happens. And so there's a lot of different tools and strategies. One of them I've already described, like the questioning, the poking holes in a belief, so that your subconscious mind starts to go, oh, this isn't an absolute truth. Because your brain is looking for what is known in science as confirmation bias, right? So the way that you interpret everything that's coming into you, your is stored as a story that you tell yourself about the reality of the world and how it works. And then your brain is constantly looking for things that fit that pattern that you've already set for yourself. And so, like you were saying, you know, when you're in the church and you're amongst the church and you don't have that physical separation, you're just surrounded by everything that's the same. And your brain is constantly looking for confirmation bias, and that's all it can see, is you know, the same people in the church. But when you can start to notice things that that go against that, notice things that might be a little bit different, then you can start to rewire things. So neurolinguistic programming is the ability to observe without engagement and see what information it gives you and how it aligns with those beliefs at the subconscious level, really.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

So if people are coming to you for coaching, what kind of practices are you going to have them do in order to break those old thought patterns?

SPEAKER_01 55:44

Yeah. So we do a lot of journaling. Journaling is very powerful and like the old-fashioned paper and pencil journaling, but with very targeted questions. So the the questions are meant to really kind of disrupt the pattern in your brain to get you see things in a different way. Um, hypnotherapy can be done if people are open to that. Hypnotherapy is it's not like the crazy whoo, I'm gonna make you be a monkey. Jumping. That's not what hypnotherapy is. You're in complete control, but it allows you to get to have change at the subconscious level because we can get past what's called the critical factor, which is which is basically your conscious mind stopping things, right? And bouncing it back according to your confirmation bias, according to the story that you tell yourself. But hypnotherapy allows you to get into that subconscious level and start to make change from an identity level or a belief level, so that you can start changing your thoughts and your behaviors the way you want them to be. And it really does start to rewire your brain. And so that's a few things that we do in the program. A lot of journaling, a lot of emotional regulation, learning about emotions, where they are on the emotion scale, how to pause and get, you know, to a higher feeling emotion, and using language to do that, paying attention to the language that you're telling yourself, the stories you're telling yourself, the thoughts you have, the words you use, that's really important too.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

Yeah, for sure. I totally believe in hypnotherapy. I did that when I got out of the cult and divorced my first husband. Hypnotherapy was like a game changer for me. I was going to therapy and I was still seeing myself fall into these patterns. Yeah. And my therapist was wonderful. And she's like, we'll continue to come every week and see me, but I'm gonna refer you to this hypnotherapist, maybe just take it a little step further for this deprogramming, you know. And I can tell you it did help. It really, really did. And I know when I tell people that, sometimes they look at me like, okay, you're kind of that's kind of crazy, but it really does like because I mean, how else are you gonna tap into your subconscious? Sometimes you have these subconscious thoughts that you don't even know are there, you have to tap into that. I know a lot of people also recommend meditation, which is very effective as well. Yeah. Is there a support group that people are able to get involved in or contact you through if they're a Mormon mother listening right now?

SPEAKER_01 58:31

Yeah, if you go to my website, which is mamaadra.com, every month we do what's called a cozy chat. And those are just free virtual meetups. And then for people that join the a cozy chat, then they are also put into a free community that they can join to kind of connect with other ex-Mormon moms. So that's a nice free community that people can join. They can check that out on my website. And then if they're interested in the full program with me with one-on-one and group coaching, then go ahead and watch that free masterclass. And then from there, if it resonates, you can book a call with me and we can talk about next steps.

SPEAKER_00 59:13

Very good. And we're gonna have all that information in the show notes for the listeners. Looking back at the version of yourself who was still deeply immersed in the Mormon religion, what would you want her to know today?

SPEAKER_01 59:28

Oh, I would say give yourself grace. Give yourself grace because you're worthy just as you are. You know, growing up, I I never felt good enough. I never felt worthy. I felt like I was only loved and accepted if I checked all the boxes, if I lived the righteous life, if I was the perfect mom. And I would tell her, you don't need to do anything to change. You're worthy and lovable just as you are, and give yourself grace and just move forward.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

Beautiful. I love that. I really appreciate you coming on today, Audra. It's been such an amazing conversation. And even if you're listening and you were not raised Mormon, you didn't come out of Mormonism. There's something to be learned from Audra's experience. And I just really appreciate you coming on today, being vulnerable and transparent with us. And again, we're gonna put the website in the show notes for people to find you. And is there any social media outlets that you want people to maybe find you on? Sure. Yeah, I'm on most of the social media as Mama Audra.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:46

That's my business name. So you can find me on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and YouTube as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:52

Perfect. Well, thank you so much for coming in. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:56

Thank you. It's been really a pleasure to talk to you and you have such a great energy. So thanks so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:02

I really loved this conversation because leaving a religious system is not only part of the journey. Sometimes the harder work begins afterward, figuring out which beliefs are actually yours, releasing the guilt and fear that we were programmed into, and deciding who you want to become. If something Audra said resonated with you, or maybe challenged the way you've been thinking about your own beliefs, check out the links in the show notes to learn more about Audra, her work, and her reclaimed program. And if you enjoyed this episode, please like, subscribe, follow, and leave a review. It really helps the podcast reach more people who may need to hear these conversations. And remember, you don't have to keep believing something simply because you were taught to believe it. Until next time, stay curious, keep asking questions, think for yourself and never stop searching for the truth. The answers may not always be comfortable, but the pursuit of truth is always worth it. Thank you for listening. Before we close out, I just want to share a quick reminder. The stories told on this podcast are personal experiences and perspectives. They're shared to create awareness and connection, not as medical, legal, or mental health advice. Some of the conversations here focus on abuse, trauma, and other heavy topics. So please take care of yourself while listening. It's always okay to pause, skip an episode, or step away if you need to. And if anything we talked about brings something up to you, we encourage you to reach out to a trusted professional or support resource. You don't have to carry any of this alone. Thank you for listening.