On the Mark: Dr. Romy Hübler

President Mark Ginsberg is joined by Dr. Romy Hübler, TU’s director of Civic Engagement & Social Responsibility, to discuss the importance of civic education and how universities prepare students to become active participants in today's society.

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Welcome to “On the Mark,” where we have candid conversations about meaningful and consequential work happening here at Towson University. I'm Mark Ginsburg, president of TU, located in Towson, Maryland. And on this podcast, we're introducing you to members of our university community who are engaged in high impact teaching, research and student success practices. Joining me today is Doctor Romy Hübler, Towson University's director of Director of Civic Engagement and Social Responsibility. Her office supports our nearly 20,000 students with opportunities for civic engagement as well as community service, and they help our students in the center to become active members of our democratic society. Romy has a doctoral degree from University of Maryland, Baltimore County, and an earned also a master's degree in Intercultural Communication and her PhD in Language, Literacy and Culture. She worked many years at UMBC before joining us at TU in 2022 as director of our Office of Civic Engagement and Social Responsibility. Romy, welcome to “On the Mark.” Thank you for having me. You know, your title is an interesting one. Civic engagement and social responsibility. Let's start with a an easy question that may not be really easy at all. And tell us a little bit about what is civic responsibility and and what's social responsibility. Civic engagement rather and social responsibility. That is a really good question. It's a big question though isn't it? And we get it a lot. So really at the core of our work is preparing students for active participation in their communities. And there are different pathways that are open to students. We do it through civic engagement and community engagement opportunities. So thinking about how can I use my voice? How can I use my values, the things that I care about to shape what is going on in my community or in the country and the world? And so how it is you can participate in, in a more active way and in what's happening, contemporary society. You know, sometimes at TU, we say we're a university for the public good. And it strikes me that the work that you do is really very much about public good. Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So if you were to differentiate just a bit civic engagement, engaging people, taking action, addressing issues that are of importance to the public and social responsibility, which seems to me to be sort of the, the hallmark of social responsibility seems to have to do with ethics, maybe personal ethics or community ethics differentiate it a little bit for me because they're both important concepts, but they they seem symmetric and parallel, but yet still a little bit different. We see them as interconnected. Interconnected. Yeah. And so it's important that we know as individuals who we are, what our values are, what experiences have shaped us and are able to envision the kind of communities that we want to live in. And sometimes that requires that we work with other people kind of on the ground grassroots, who are leaders in their communities or who are running nonprofit organizations, community associations. Or just your your neighbor on the street who might have a grievance or might see an issue and you want to figure out how can we work together. I see. To bring about some change sometimes. And this is where the more civic engagement component comes in. You might need to work with elected officials. Or you might need to bring about a policy change or do some advocacy work. And so it really depends on what the issue is, what you're trying to accomplish. But what we want to make sure is that students know and have at their disposal all of those tools. Right. Another component that I think oftentimes we're not necessarily considering when we're thinking of civic and community engagement, is the importance of being able to build strong communities and to communicate in ways that allow us to foster strong communities. Right. And so we're also teaching students about restorative practices, dialog, community organizing. Yeah. So that you can be in conversation with your neighbors, with your friends, your family members, strangers. Right. And you can figure out what drives the other person, what they care about, what their story is. Right. A lot of our work currently focuses on story story of self, but also a story of us and imagination. And so all of those pieces come together and the work that we do and in the programs that we provide to students. Well, it sure seems like given where we are as a society and not just here in the United States, but but around the world, frankly, too where there is such polarities, there's such division and divisiveness because of that division, that the kind of things you're talking about are almost remedies for the, the polar ways in which we seem to seem to interact with each other at times. Yeah, we'd like to think so. And, and I know a lot of us, who work on, on the staff team have also had experiences where it's been more challenging to talk, even with folks who are close to us or family members. And, so seeking opportunities, seeking tools that we can use to foster those divides. And, what I have found and what many of my colleagues have found to not just at TU, but nationally. It's really the power of story, right? Understanding why someone has come to believe what they believe. And oftentimes that is connected to an experience that they have had, or being part of a community where they felt like they didn't matter or they didn't belong right, or part of a country where they felt that way and not necessarily having the the skills or the knowledge to figure out, well, what can I do in partnership with others, right, who are feeling the same way or maybe feel differently so that we can address whatever challenge it is that I'm seeing? And,of course, when we think about the the world and all the things that are wrong or even the society that that we live in right now and kind of those divisions, it can be hard to see a role for ourselves, which is why we focus on the local, including TU. Right? Like thinking about. What can we do here to create, a more welcoming, inclusive community and that can range from, focusing on food access or housing access or thinking about collective safety. Yeah it seems as if there's a prerequisite to be able to get to that point. And and just thinking about what you're saying, it seems to me like there has to be a willingness to to listen to somebody and at the same time, a respect for what the other person is saying. And, you know, it seems in our everyday conversations, fairly routinely, particularly with people we don't agree with or thinking so much about how it is we're going to respond, or maybe thinking about what our own reaction is to what somebody saying that we may run the risk of missing what it is they're actually trying to communicate. And it sounds like what you're trying to do through your work is to provide an opportunity to stop the the passing from each other, but instead to find a way for people to connect with each other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And as you're saying that back to me I'm thinking about we need curiosity. We need imagination. Imagination and curiosity. And so if we are curious about why people say whatever they say and we ask deeper questions and we, we ask those questions because we're actually interested. Yeah. And more practicing active listening. Hum. I’ve come to understand there’s some programs here at Towson that that can help to maybe, for lack of a better word, facilitate that kind of thing, like one program. I'm curious for you to tell us a little bit about is the ALL IN Campus Democracy Challenge and how that really what it is first, but also how it is that it has contributed to this sense of connectedness among people. So the ALL IN Campus Democracy Challenge is a national nonprofit group, nonpartisan, and they are leading a process of supporting campuses and envisioning civic engagement. And coming up with campus Democratic Action plans, when they think about civic engagement, it's elections and beyond. So it's important that we vote. And if we're only empowered that one day where we go to the polls, then what about all the other days where there aren't elections, right? And so when we think about civic engagement, through that lens, it really is this idea that civic life is everywhere. And it's. All around us, essentially. All around us and all of our spaces. Yeah. And it's an everyday practice. And so, TU developed a campus Democratic action plan for the next ten years, which is a great tool for us to think about. Where do we want to be? What are the gaps? How can we work with more partners to really, come together and make sure that students have the skills and dispositions, knowledge necessary to see themselves as active participants in all of the spaces that they’re in. And has program going. Give us a progress report on how it's been. Yeah. So we put the action plan together in 2024. Just a year ago. Just a year ago. It's for the next ten years and we've made some great progress. Just submitted our, report, and, it is very long. And a great opportunity to, you know, reflect on, what we have been able to do during this 2024 election cycle. And what I'm really excited about is that it gives us a roadmap and we can take that roadmap and approach campus partners and really think creatively about how we can take civic engagement at TU, to the next level. So let me give you an example. Yeah, please. So. At TU we have a lot of students who live on campus. Yes. And so when they move onto the campus, it's a great opportunity to remind them you have moved. Have you changed your address? On your voter registration form, are you registered to vote and using processes that already exist, like a check in, or a moving checklist, right. Like moving, using that and reminding them are you registered to vote? You moved. What? You know, you might want to update your your address. What we have found is it's harder for students who are more transient, to have documentation of where they live and waiting until Election Day creates a problem where they go to the polls and they can't prove where they live and therefore are not able to vote. So part of this strategy then seems to me to to help our students, but others as well, I suspect not just not our students, to actually be participants in our democracy, to be engaged. In fact, the whole word civic engagement, it almost speaks to a sense of agency. As I was reading about civic engagement, some people write about that sense of agency, personal agency, to feel compelled to engage, to feel like you have a responsibility, a personal responsibility to be engaged, that sense of agency. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. One of our learning objectives in the Office of Civic Engagement and Social Responsibility is civic agency. So, it can be hard for you to feel powerful when a lot of things are happening to you that you don't have an influence over. And so with civic agency that is teaching students well, in fact, you do have a lot more power. Yeah, than you think. Yeah, but you have to take that power. You have to take that responsibility. I was reading in preparation for a conversation that, one author talked about. The civic engagement issue is having a responsibility to take an active role in the shaping of our society. Which really refers to what you're talking about. To not only vote, but to be a participant in in our democratic processes. And now, it seems to me, is there's such turbulence in the air about these issues of what is democracy, about what are the policies that make the most sense for our country. There's great dichotomies, great differences about this. But your approach seems to be not to be content focused, but little more focused on process, almost irrespective of your perspective on an issue. There's a responsibility to become involved in not just advocacy, but in participating in the levers of our government, if you will. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Another program that I was kind of intrigued by that, that I think you you lead is a year long training program to help our students actually effectively facilitate these kinds of community conversations. I think it's called our Civic Renewal Fellowship to tell us a little bit about that program. So the the idea for the program really emerged in 2016, and it was being on a college campus and seeing how impacted my colleagues students were, given the outcome of the election. Yeah. And feeling powerless. And so in 2020, I had this idea of we need to do something to prepare faculty, staff and students to feel like they have the power to shape their communities. After the election, no matter who wins. And so we worked with colleagues from the counseling center from Restorative Practices dialog, our inclusion area, and civic engagement and leadership to come up with a training plan to allow folks across campus to facilitate conversation within their networks. And so Student Government Association had a listening circle. We had academic areas. We had student organizations. Student affairs department just coming together for folks to use restorative practices and dialog to share how they're doing, how they're processing, how we can move forward together as a community, as as people who might have different ideas and might feel differently about the outcome of the election. So when I came to TU, I brought this model here, and we expanded it to really think about our community, not just in relation to the election, but using restorative practices, using listening circles to bring people together around an issue that is important to us. So we've had multiple, of those what we now call TU community conversations. Right. So this is, facilitated conversations around important issues like food access or housing access. The most recent one focused on, The collective care and safety on campus. And so the program has evolved, from this initial let's do a one off training to let's actually use this as an opportunity to train students in a year long, high impact program in how do you build community? How do you facilitate meaningful conversations with people who might have different opinions, different experiences? And how do you then identify a way forward? Most recently, we also included a component where they are now learning about, community organizing so that it’s not only we’re listening to folks who are participating, but we hear what they're saying. And as a next step, we will work with campus partners in figuring out how can we make this better. But it sounds like one of the key ingredients is to be active, Absolutely, to be active. I'm reminded of a quote from one of my heroes and an old and dear friend, actually Marian Wright Edelman, who who led the Children's Defense Fund for many years, who who once said democracy is not a spectator sport. Other words, you have to be involved if you're if you're going to live in a democracy, as we all do, and hope we will continue that. You have a responsibility to be involved in this program. Seems to me to be a catalyst, if you will, or a mechanism, a funnel for involvement. Yeah, absolutely. And I also want to clarify that Charis Lawson in my office runs the program. So she's our coordinator for civic engagement. You know, it all sounds very good, but I and I am not going to be a naysayer at all. But I want to ask the flip side of the question, what what are some of the barriers for kids participating, you know, and let me provide a context for the question because I don't mean it as a negative. I really mean it as a positive. We-- it so difficult, it seems to me in today's environment for us to interact with people who may have a very different point of view of ours. And there's such polarity, such difference, such division, such dichotomy in our communities that I wonder how big of a barrier that is. And are there other barriers that you've needed to overcome to to have a successful program like, like you been able to lead. Yeah. I think that is a question for, for all of us and, and a challenge for, for all of us. Yeah. Students I find. What's the recipe? Yeah. Right. Yeah. And and students I find have does this desire for change and they might not yet know where to put that energy. Yeah. And what we often see is large protest movements and, and that that was me totally. When I was a student that was like, where's my movement? Where’s your sign? I want to be out there, right? And and so, and not finding it and or, posting on social media and, and those kinds of things we see as acts of activism. Yeah. What I have found is that it can still feel very lonely. Right. Like I, I have gone to demonstrations and felt great. And then I walked away and I was back at home in my living room and thinking, and now what? I don't know any of the movement leaders. I don't know what the agenda is, what the next steps are. Or I posted something, but how many people will actually read this, engage with it, and is it actually going to bring about any change? You know, you. Mentioned you mentioned social media, and I was sitting here as you were saying it, wondering what has been the influence of of those kinds of channels of communication which can be accurate or widely inaccurate, but certainly shaping of of opinion. You've probably thought about this, I imagine, because it's such a big issue. I have and I will also say I don't use social media, at all. At all. Really? And why have you made that decision? It it took up a lot of space. Takes the air out of the room. And I noticed that it took me away from being in conversation with other people or for me to take care of myself. And so I'm just using that energy and time to fly in a different way. It deflected, in a sense. Yeah. Yeah. What about generally now you've abstained from social media. You've, created a boundary. It sounds to me like. But many people haven't. So. And social media, for good and for bad is shaping a lot of, of public opinion and, and I suspect actually facilitating or contributing maybe a better way to say it to the, intensity of division. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think social media has a space in change work or in active participation and there are so many other pathways or things that you can do. And so in our work we're harnessing that energy of students who want to bring about a change and also introducing them to less known, opportunities. Right. Like community organizing or like, dialog and restorative practices and civic discourse kind of skills. Yeah. You know, one of the criticisms that I hear routinely, particularly during this time when there is such turbulence and in the air, there's such division among people of different political persuasions, different political perspectives, is there's great apathy that that people have have not engaged. They have, stood back. I'm reminded of a quote Martin Luther King once wrote that “Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.” What you're doing seems to me to be energizing activism, but not activism for activism sake. Activism. Activism in a responsible way. Is Martin Luther King. right? that the day we become silent about things that matter, our lives begin to end. I think it depends on how we define silence, and especially in our society right now, where social media means noise, right? Or you're not silent. Silence can be misunderstood as I'm not seeing anything, I'm not saying anything and therefore I am silent and others are silent. But Martin Luther King and other movement organizers know how important it is to organize in the background to have conversations and to build community. And that that requires time and doesn't mean we need to be loud. There's a time for that. And the organizing needs to lead. But you mentioned a very important phrase. I think that there's noise, that that silence may not be silence, but then there's the antithesis of it, which could just be noise. Nothing really seminal or important or contributory. Right. Interesting. Another quote that I thought was interesting. I'd be curious to get your take on a John F. Kennedy once wrote that “Every person can make a difference, but that every person needs to try to make a difference.” Right. And that's kind of what I hear. You're saying that that the importance of contributing is balanced by the, the opportunity to make a difference. Yeah. And you know, I mentioned story and the importance of story. So I will share a little bit of my own story and why I care so much about this work and why I think that everyone has the opportunity and has the capacity to bring about a change. So I grew up in East Germany during communism, and I grew up in a city of Leipzig. Which is no longer beautiful city. Yeah, beautiful architecture in Leipzig. Yeah. So, that is where the peaceful revolution started. Yes. In a small church? Yes. And. Right? Like the silence people who were outside didn't know. Yes. But it became hundreds of thousands of people, including my father, his friends, who would go every Monday and demonstrate the right to protest was not a right in my country. It wasn't. And there was a risk. There was a huge risk not only to my father, but also authorities could have taken us away. Yes. Right. They could have imprisoned him. Very dangerous. They could have disappeared him? Yes. And destroyed our family. So that's. That's one reason in my lifetime what I have seen in my great grandfather, who was very dear to me when I grew up. Great grandfather. He was in the resistance against the Nazis. He was imprisoned. He was a political prisoner. Yes. He was in a labor camp, and he was freed from there and lived in exile, fighting for, the British army against the Nazis. And the risk? There is even so much higher than the risk that my dad took. And having those two role models, it just shows me that it is possible. And I, it has shaped me and has made me think about why do people risk so much to bring about the change that they care about. That they believe in that aligns with their values. And what is my role. What is the role of people I hold dear to me. People who I don't know. Students, right? Yeah. What is all of our role to to do what is right, even when there are dire consequences? That's a magnificent way to conclude our conversation. You began with the importance of stories in your own personal story. It has. It seems to me very been very motivating for you, but very motivating for the whole-- But what your life work has become is to understand the importance of speaking up, to understand the importance of as John Kennedy said, the responsibility we have to to make a difference and but also to find opportunities where you can make a difference. And so Romy Hübler, thank you so much for telling your personal story and helping others to tell theirs and to live their stories through their personal, civic engagement and social responsibility. Romy Hübler my guest today and on the mark, the director of civic engagement and social responsibility here at Towson University. Thank you for joining me and for those listening, thank you for joining us for a very interesting and for me, very inspiring conversation. We appreciate your work and very much appreciate you being with us today. Thanks Romy. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for listening to “On the Mark.” If you like what you've heard, please give us a follow or leave a review. It helps ensure that we can keep bringing you more candid conversations about the consequential impact of higher education. And if you have feedback about our podcast, feel free to send me a message at. Onthemark [at] Towson dot Edu. 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