Why porn addiction recovery for men requires Shadow Work to rebuild self-esteem and heal masculinity (with Aaron Labajo)

Porn addiction often begins in silence.
For many men, it starts in childhood and grows into a coping mechanism for emotional pain, insecurity, and disconnection.

In this episode of Bridger of Worlds, I welcome my first guest, Aaron Labajo, for an honest and raw conversation about porn addiction recovery for men, masculine identity, and emotional healing. We share how addiction began for both of us at a young age, and how it distorted our self-worth, relationships, and sense of masculinity.

We explore how pornography becomes a substitute for unmet emotional needs, lack of confidence, and distorted ideas about intimacy. This episode looks at recovery not as willpower alone, but as a process of rebuilding self-trust, emotional stability, and healthy masculine expression.

A central theme of this conversation is Shadow Work and inner integration, drawing on the work of Carl Jung and Robert A. Johnson. We discuss the role of the Shadow and the Anima in men’s psychology, and why ignoring these inner dynamics keeps men stuck in cycles of shame, performance anxiety, and self-sabotage. We also look at the symbolic meaning of the phallus and how porn distorts one's image not only on the physical level, but the mental, emotional, and spiritual as well.

Aaron shares how self-compassion, spiritual growth, physical discipline, and purpose-finding became essential in his recovery. Together, we emphasize that lasting healing requires kindness toward yourself, patience, and the courage to face emotional wounds rather than escaping them.

This episode offers grounded insight and practical guidance for men who want to heal addiction, restore confidence, and cultivate a balanced, integrated masculinity.

In this episode, we explore:

• Porn addiction recovery and early conditioning
• How addiction begins in childhood for many men
• Low self-worth, insecurity, and performance anxiety
• Masculinity, relationships, and emotional disconnection
• Shadow work and inner integration
• The phallus and its psychological/spiritual implications on wounded masculinity 
• The Anima and emotional development in men
• Teachings from Jungian psychology
• Self-compassion as a foundation for healing
• Reconnecting with healthy sexual energy
• Physical fitness and discipline in recovery
• Building confidence and self-esteem
• Finding purpose after addiction

Healing isn’t about becoming perfect. It’s about learning to relate to yourself with honesty, patience, and respect.

Transcript

 Hi everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Bridger of Worlds podcast. I'm your host, Ioannis Kokkinos. Thank you so much for joining me. If you're on YouTube watching, thank you for tuning in and if you're on one of the podcast platforms, thank you for tuning in as well.

 Hi everybody, once again. I am, uh, popping in here today because I've prerecorded, uh, this next episode that you're about to watch slash listen to, and I've actually been working on something very exciting, and that is the first men's retreat that I am hosting this summer in June in the, on the island of Ikaria, Greece.

So I just wanna put this in here because registration is now open. If you're on YouTube watching, you can find all the information down on the description below. And if you're on one of the podcast platforms, you can find the website on the podcast footer. So this is a men's retreat focusing on masculine embodiment.

It's a five day, uh, fully immersive experience in the Greek Island wilderness. For those of you that have been following me, you know that I've traveled to Skiathos, to Corfu, to Crete. I've been living on Rhodes and I've been communing with these islands and with the Greek wilderness very intentionally. So now this is a medicine I want to offer and open up the space to share with my brothers.

So if this is at all speaking to you. Uh, please sign up. I'd love, I'd love to see you over there. Um, it's going to be maximum 16 men. I am keeping the group small because I want to preserve the depth and the integrity of the container, and it'll be full day, uh, immersive work. As far as, as I said, masculine embodiment is concerned.

Think masculine, feminine energetics. Aspecting Shadow work group, circle group, witnessing breath work, meditation, grounding exercises, primal energy, expression, and embodiment. It's gonna be wild, it's gonna be incredible. It's gonna be charged. Um, and I hope to see you there. Thank you. 

Meet the First Guest: Aaron Labajo

So, as you can see, for those of you on YouTube, today's a very special episode because I have my first guest coming onto the podcast. And this is my new friend slash thriend, as we say on Threads, this is where we met Aaron, uh, Labajo. Um, we share the common story of being, uh, addicted to pornography. So I thought it would be a very, um, powerful and um, interesting conversation if I had another fellow brother come on to the podcast and just have a smooth, free flowing conversation about our experiences, our journey with porn addiction.

Um, and give some tips and, you know, um, information as to how, um, men or even women that have this issue can, uh, better themselves and maybe find some other resources to, uh, find inspiration and knowledge and so on and so forth. So, Aaron, welcome to Bridger of Worlds. You're the official first guest. I've, how doing?

Thank you brother. 

It's an honor. 

Yeah. 

Good man. I'm ready. I'm ready to talk shop. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Aaron's Journey with Porn Addiction

So, as I mentioned, we both, uh, share a similar story, a similar journey with pornography and porn addiction. If you can just, you know, start with your story, a little bit of what you've, uh, experienced, how you started, why you started, you think, um, yeah.

And we'll take it from there. 

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, man. So I would say. Like a lot of guys, we start pretty young, usually around like 10 to 12. I personally started, I think when I was either around 11 to 12. I don't remember that. 

Yeah. 

It was one of those two numbers and I just, I just remember, I don't remember the exact, like first time I discovered it, but I just remember like, oh shit.

Like I'm just hooked on this and I need to see this. Pretty much, pretty much every day at that point. Yeah. And I remember to, I remember seeing like, yeah, just how like accessible it was. So I would just go on it every day. If I was bored, I would, I would just go on it. Or like if I was on the toilet and I had my phone on me, which like usually that's a thing where people just bring their phones onto the toilet.

Yeah. And I would just like, I would just like, all right, shit, I'll just start watching. I'll start watching porn. Fuck it. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. And. Um, and that was like a daily, it wasn't, it wasn't always daily, but at some points it was, it was daily. And I remember in the midst of COVID, man, it was like, it was daily, multiple times a day.

Maybe two to three times. 

Yeah. 

A day. And it wasn't even just like, it wasn't even just like, like regular porn anymore, 3D porn. It'd be like, or like, you know, real life, like real life porn. It'd be like anime and like Ken Ty and that sort of stuff. 

Right, right. 

The Impact of Porn on Mental Health

And it just became, it to me it was like, I just remember there was, I don't remember how, like the exact day when I started being more conscious of like how it was affecting me and how I felt afterwards.

I think it was always there all along, but it was just like the voice had to get loud enough for me to like actually start listening. But I remember every time I finished I would always get that vague sort of voice, which is like, dude, why did you do that? Like, 

yeah, 

like, or why did I do that? And yeah, I just remember there was, there were points.

I, I just remember there was a point where like, oh fuck man, this is this, this just doesn't, this something's not right here. But then when you, when you look, when you search about it, it's like, oh, it's normal to, to watch porn. Oh, it's normal. To like, 

yeah, 

do all that stuff, you know? So it's like there wasn't really anything out there to kind of confirm this sort of inner feeling about what I was doing.

It's only in recent times when it's only really began to be a thing. But yeah, that's kind of like where I kind of started, where I, I just kind of watched it, like I saw, saw it like, I don't know, when I was 12, and then it, from there it was like, oh man. I, I can't get off of this thing. 

Yeah, we're, we're young.

I mean, our brains are so, um, uh, they're still like, uh, developing right at that stage. Mm-hmm. And they're like, just taking in so much. And, um, I wanna, there's a few things like throughout what you were talking about, a few things I'd like to touch upon. But let's start with, you know, you were, say you're about 10 or 12 years old, which is when I, I was probably about 11, 12 years old as well when I started.

I'm a little bit older than you, so when I started mm-hmm. There were no hub type websites. Yeah. I think that's probably even more challenging now. 'cause it, it's Oh, yeah. Even more hyperstimulation and you have like, you know, 20 thumbnails set up per page. So it's like so, so stimulating and, um, 

yeah. 

Uh, you know, for the, for the, for the, for our systems and for our brain, like, we're not Evo evolutionally evolutionary equipped to be so sexually stimulated.

Right. And I think that's mm-hmm. Where, uh, some men go over the edge and become addicted. Um, so you started watching, let's say, uh, out of curiosity, you think, like, did you just have lack of information or, or sex education? Obviously it's arousing, right? So we're feeling things when we're watching. What do you think was the, the, like the starting point or the 

Yeah.

I, I think, well, I, I can only really know this. Looking back now. I think one of the big things was I was, I was pretty lonely, you know? 

Struggles with Self-Worth and Body Image

Um. 

Mm-hmm. 

I remember like, because I was, I, you know, I had friends and stuff like that, but when it comes to like girlfriends 

Yeah. 

Or at least like romantic relationships.

I know. I would see, I would see like everyone, oh man, he has a, that guy has a girlfriend and then that girlfriend's dating is like, has a crush on that guy. 

Yeah. 

But to me it was like, oh man, I, I don't think, well, I don't know. Not that I know of at the time. Uh, how come, how come I didn't, how come no one's crushing on me?

You know, that sort of thing. Right. So I don't think I was getting my romantic slash sexual needs. 

Right. 

Or maybe I was just starting to open up to them and I just did, I didn't know what to do with that. And so, 

and I know you were more overweight. Like you've, you've talked about this on, on your, uh, threads, uh, profile.

Oh yeah. 

Were you, do you feel like being overweight, um, did something to your confidence and maybe that's why you felt like you couldn't, um, have a girlfriend or attract romantic interests? 

Oh, yeah. 

Yeah. 

Two, 200, 200%. Um, 

yeah, 

I was like, like this in the past three years has been the only time in my life where I have not been overweight.

So all I knew my entire life was being overweight. And that definitely fed into it. 'cause, you know, people would make comments, people would say stuff. I mean, even like family would would say, would say stuff, even though they don't necessarily, they weren't necessarily like have any malt intent. They just kind of say it.

Right. 

It was, and even 

that, it was for 

your own good. But yeah, still comments and. 

Yes. So it just, it really was, it really, I was in a place where I had really low, just overall low self-worth. Yeah. And self-esteem. 

And then porn can really, I, you know, in my experience, which I also share, uh, the same, uh, story with you about around being overweight.

Um, when I started I was overweight and, um, throughout my whole adolescence I was overweight and I really struggled with, um, transforming my body. But I mean, it's pretty ironic 'cause I ended up becoming a personal trainer and I, you know, health is like number one for me now, and fitness and all that. But, um, it was also watching the porn.

I remember like really feeling bad about myself. 'cause I mean, I'm heterosexual. I was obviously like really attracted and aroused by the women, but I was also like mm-hmm. Comparing myself to the men. Like 

mm-hmm. 

I'm like, how, like, uh, can I do that? Or how can I even have a girlfriend if I look like me?

And I don't look like that. I mean, like 99% of the men on porn, especially like hardcore porn are jacked fit, you know, they're ripped. Yes. So, I don't know if this is often talked about. I mean, okay, we all have our reasons for being addicted to pornography and we like what we like, like, or even like the genders.

We like the genders that we like. But there's a sense of, um, for me at least, was the comparing as well. That was a big piece for me. 'cause it even after I quit the porn, right, like it's the mental aspect. Like, I got in shape, I was a personal trainer for five years. I, you know, from the outside it looked like you could say I was flying, like I was confident and this and that, but I still was like terrified of intimacy.

I still had performance anxiety even like when I was sleeping with women, like mm-hmm. What porn had done to my mind and body was still very much. Um, a part of me because I hadn't really unpacked like what it meant for me and, um, just the psychological and, um, emotional damage it did to me. Mm. I don't know.

Can you, uh, relate to that at all, or, 

dude, yeah. I'm actually, I'm, so, I'm in a relationship right now and I'm, I'm currently experiencing that for myself. Um, like.

Like, sometimes I get like these, like mental movies in my head about like, oh man, like, am I gonna be able to like, perform for her? Am I gonna be able to, yeah. You know, am I gonna be able to, yeah, just do that or am I good enough? Or in, in, you know, in many cases big enough. You know, all that. 

Yeah. 

All that sort of 

stuff.

That's, uh, that's another, that's another big, well, pun, pun not intended, pun not intended. But it's another important piece, I think. Um, but yeah, continue and we can unpack that a little bit later. 

Yeah. Yeah. Um, and it's like, yeah, and then I, I get in my head about it's like, oh shit. Like, you know, can, and, and obviously, you know, this is still something that like I'm working through, you know, I'm not, I still have so much and I, I haven't even watched porn in like a year, and there's still so much to like.

Work through, I guess. 

Yeah. 'cause you're, you cut porn because we had a conversation already about this. Mm-hmm. It's been a year. You're like, you're not watching it all. Right. And 

yeah. 

You see like the after effects even. Um, I mean, I've, I've not watched in years. Um mm-hmm. There are thoughts, right? There are like situations where I question and um, obviously not as much at all like right now, but back when it was like closer to the, the cutting of the porn, definitely because I think it's only one, um, one piece of the formula just to like cut the porn because then you have to take care of like the emotional aspect, the mental aspect.

'cause it like conditions the mind, right? It's like there's so much science out there right now talking about like what porn does to the brain and like the pathways and we really have to kind, um, well not kind of, we have to like remold our brain almost with new, 

yeah. 

New pathways. And that takes time, that takes, uh, repetition and consistency.

Yeah. It's like unplugging a toilet is what I always say. Tell myself. 

Yeah. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. So, um, can you, I mean, you, you're saying you have like thoughts around, you know, performance and stuff like that. We talked about, um, the comparing thing, but you also mentioned size, um mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

I know a lot of, most men, um, think about their size and, you know, what we see on porn obviously is usually quite unrealistic or just exaggerated. And, um, throughout my research, you know, trying to recover and heal, um, I did come across a lot of men that actually develop some sort of, like some form of body dysmorphic disorder where they became so obsessive about the size of their penis that they actually would picture it smaller than it actually was.

Like, it was a mental, it was really like a mental block. So, um, have you experienced 

that 

something like this? 

Um, I mean, for sure. I mean, like, even though, even though like my girlfriend like assures me like, oh, it's good, it's good. Like, 

yeah, 

it's still in my head. I'm like, is it, is it really good? Like, 

yeah.

You know, like all that, all that stuff like that goes on in, like yeah. The little stuff that goes on in the back of your head, you know? So it's, I mean, to me, I, I would say, yeah, the, on, on the topic of porn too, like those guys, they're, or at least something I, I know I have to understand is like, on porn, it, it's, it's all curated and like they're, they're getting the hottest people, like literally like, on the right side of the bell curve.

And when you compare yourself to that, of course you're gonna be like, of course you're gonna be disappointed. But that's not average, you know? 

Plus man. I mean, at least 

that's what someone 

says. Yeah. They get, they, you know, they get guys that already fit, that already are, are bigger in size, but there's also a lot of, um, injections involved, pills, you know?

Mm-hmm. Drugs there, you know, we get like the sparkles, we get the, the show, right. Everything's like, it's all about the angles and the lighting, but like the reality of what actually goes on during filming. And you know what, these both men and women. Put through them, put, um, put themselves through and their bodies mm-hmm.

Is not at all. Um, we don't, we don't see that. We don't understand that. Right. So 

mm-hmm. 

They do a really good job in painting an illusion as, you know, the man I think being like super, um, almost like Godlike, right? Like Yeah. He's also like greek 

statue also. 

Yeah. Like he's fully, he is also like fully in control.

He is dominating, right? Like the woman is just like a piece of meat being thrown around. Uh, we don't know if there's any consent. We don't know what they agreed upon. We have absolutely no idea. And, um, yeah. And when we're young, right, we're like 10, 11, 12 years old, and we start to watch that shit. We think that this, mm-hmm.

We think this is what it has to be. A lot of kids, a lot of teenagers think that this is what it has to be. And, um, it warped my mind for years, man. Like years, years, years. Mm-hmm. Then it's like all the, the self-worth stuff and the confidence and the constant comparing and the constant questioning. Like you, when I was with women, you know, they were telling me I'm, I'm fine and you know, it was good, but I am 

mm-hmm.

Questioning and I am, that's just this program, it's just programming. It has nothing to do with the truth. It's conditioning. 

Yeah. 

And it, um, yeah, it can really take a toll on you. 

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to the point where like, e even like, like I shit, dude, like if we can, we, if you wanna keep following this thread, we can like, but like, it, it would've trouble like keeping it up because of the performance anxiety.

And then you get in your head and then you just stay stuck there. And like, you can't, like, you literally cannot fully connect with the person because all that, that gunk is in there. At least from what I have seen. 

A hundred percent. 'cause I mean, we do our nervous, you know, our nervous system as far as like our sexuality is concerned, needs to be in a relaxed, calm, safe state.

Like, I think number not, I think it is number one, we need to feel safe in our body and in our energy, and then obviously have partners that make us feel safe and that we can mm-hmm. You know, promote safety to them. 

Mm-hmm. 

If that's not there, no matter, you know, how much physical stimulation and even, okay, maybe we'll get a little bit aroused 'cause it, it feels good, but if we're not like safe in our body, and by that I also mean just like the thoughts we have toward ourselves and the feelings we have toward ourselves.

Mm-hmm. If we're thinking about our size, if we're thinking about our weight, if we're thinking about performance that's not feeling safe, we we're not feeling safe in our body and in our energy. Right. So. There's, there's no presence after, and we need to be, especially as men, right? Like we want, you know, for bringing in polarity work, masculine, feminine.

The masculine is about that safety and presence for the feminine to like open and surrender. And then the dance can happen, like the, the, the union can happen. So, um, yeah, it's uh, a lot of pressure. It can be a lot of pressure, but it doesn't have to be. Mm-hmm. It's just mm-hmm. About what we learned and, uh, what we have to decondition ourselves with and, yeah.

Is there anything you, uh, like to add to that or? 

No, man, you I mean. You, you said it best. You said it amazingly. 

Yeah. 

Recovery and Healing Journey

So next let's kind of maybe talk a little bit about your recovery journey. So you said it's been about a year that you've stopped porn since then. Mm-hmm. What has recovery and healing looked like for you?

Well, um, I did stop porn, so it was September of 2024 when I was, when I finally quit for good. And so it's been over like 15, 16 months at that point. Almost 18, a year and a half. So, but it's like. I wanna, I wanna make it clear because, you know, I feel like I wish I heard this when I was trying to quit.

Like, I didn't, I was only able to quit September, 2024. Not because I went suddenly cold Turkey, but it's because I struggled for probably years before that to even quit. And then that was just the point where it was finally like, okay, I think I, it, it just kind of naturally was not really in me anymore, or I just kind of was like, all right, I, I, I'm done.

And so let me, like, I'll, I'll explain. So like, I really tried quitting for, for years and it would be like, I would, I would be done for maybe a week or maybe two weeks or in three weeks and then maybe even a month, and then I'd get sucked back into it and. Then I'm at it again every day, multiple times a day.

It's like, like relapse basically. It's like, it's basically an addiction. 

Yeah, it is. 

And that was the cycle. That was the cycle that I had for, for, I don't know, years. Or I would just try quitting and then I would kind of do okay for a little bit and then just fall right back into it. 

Right. 

And it was, I think, I know it's kind of cheesy, but one thing that has helped me is like, I just kept fucking trying and I kept trying, even when I was like, dude, uh, there's, this is, this is hopeless.

I'm, I'm gonna be stuck here forever. I still kept trying somehow. Um, that's one thing. And then, but the most, one of the most important things was also getting my lifestyle on track. 

Yeah. 

Like I was, I started getting in shape. 

Started 

finding purpose. Almost like finding some 

form. Yes. 

Purpose. Yeah, 

yeah, yeah, exactly.

Um, it's not like, oh man, I'm gonna go make a billion dollar company. Right? Like, you, you, you can maybe, but for me it was just like, listen man, I am sick of being this and I want to be the person that I was born to be. And that is like, and to me, when I visualize that, I think, oh, he's in good shape. He is.

He's not watching porn all the time. 'cause he is like doing cool stuff. And so I think that's what I started doing. Um, there was actually a heartbreak in like 2022 that kind of sparked that. And I mean, we can talk about that more or not, but that's kind of what, like from that point, I, I lost like 40 pounds in a year.

I started training for a marathon 

that, 

that's in 20, but I was still watching 

porn 

2022. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. And then for two years you were still watching porn? 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. 

But it was like. I was still watching porn, but like, it wasn't, first of all, it wasn't, the urges weren't as much, and it was easier to, to not watch porn because, you know, because I was in better shape, because I was in a better place mentally.

But, you know, it's still like the, obviously the, the strings are very strong at that point. So I, I was still like getting pulled into it even when, even when I didn't want to. And really, it was probably in 2023 when I had this sort of like another heartbreak where that kind of create, 

so you were like, you were dating, you were, you had romantic situations and watching porn at the same time and, okay.

That started probably 2021 when I was talking to people or I'd start traveling to, and then talk to people. 

Yeah. 

And there were women there to, but I never went like beyond the, um. Like it, maybe like I'd get like lunch with them. 

Oh, so 

it wasn't, it never 

wasn't physical. Like you didn't 

Yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't really physical.

Yeah. 

Like, not home, home base at all. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Well, 

the first one was 

first or 

only 22. One was 

Okay. 

Yeah. 

So, yeah. 

Yeah. 

Okay. So we could touch upon this, I mean, while watching porn Yeah. Was that, was that like the time where you were like really in your head about everything? 'cause you obviously you were watching porn and you for all those years, and how did that conversation show up with your romantic partner at the time?

Like, did it affect you? What I'm basically asking? 

Yeah. Um, I, I remember this very specifically. I remember at the time my, my partner, um, she was like, can you can, and she was nice about it too. Like, it's, is, can you. Because we were being intimate and then I was still watching porn on top of that. Right.

Yeah. 

And she would be like, I remember one day she asked, can you watch that less? Or like, she just asked me to stop watching it as much or just stop watching it entirely. And I was like, and literally, I remember at the time I was like, but it's like, it's normal. You know? That's literally the, the explanation.

It's normal. Like over here it's like it's normal to watch porn like regularly, like everyone does it. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. I remember, I remember that. And I remember she was also like very, uh, uh, not happy to hear that at the time. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. And I think it also, I, I don't know if that directly led to the, it wasn't that that led directly to the breakup, but I'm sure that also had a very, like a role in that.

I remember to like, and, and the thing is too, what I learned from that relationship was like, dude, I was just in that. 'cause I was like. I, I don't think I really actually had a, like, a deep like, connection with her. 

Hmm. 

Like, I was just kind of, I was basically just horny. Like we were basically just using each other as like masturbation.

Right. It was just lust 

our bodies for that. Yeah. 

Like lust and very, um, yeah. But the, the physical, the physical piece. The physical aspect. 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Yeah. It doesn't, uh, I mean, I had like, when I was, I remember I had, I had quit the porn and then I was, um, I had, it was never, uh, relationships, it was just women that were friends, friends with benefits.

Mm-hmm. 

So there was always like stuff coming up there. I mean, we were close enough where I can open up about it, but. Again, it wasn't very, my, my heart was never in it. Like it wasn't also, um, I was just like a shade of who I was because of all of the, the conditioning and the, the low self-worth and the programming.

And, um, I was very fortunate because like all the women that I experienced these things with were nice and kind and, you know, were, were caring and understanding. Uh, but I realized at some point it's like this thing of like thinking. 'cause I thought I had to just replace porn with real life sex. But 

yeah, 

my, like, as I said, my heart was still closed.

I still hadn't really unpacked why I was watching porn. And, um, all the conditioning still had like a lot of like, control over my mind and my body. So I did feel like I needed a period of abstinence and celibacy and really like, come back to myself and really also also come back to my body and also to learn in some way, shape or form to be my own lover.

Like, because then it's like I see you're, you're constantly seeking and going outside for that love, affection, attention, uh, intimacy and, um, you know, masturbating especially for guys can be like, you know, uh, three minute, five minute thing, but. Self pleasuring. If you make it like a little bit of like ritual and, you know, you really go into like the sensual experience of exploring your body, seeing what you like, and it can be very liberating, it can be very healing.

And then you can obviously take that into romantic, uh, you know, with romantic, uh, encounters with other people. And, um, I think that was such a big part of my healing as well, because mm-hmm. Um, yeah, there's like all the science around cutting the porn and, um, reconditioning your pathways stop, ma even, you know, no fapping and no fantasizing.

And yeah, in the beginning, I have to say even like masturbating and self pleasuring was triggering me. Mm-hmm. And would, um, you know, trigger me to go watch porn. Mm-hmm. So there was a period of yeah, like total, no masturbating, no fapping and all that. But, mm-hmm. I think for me, like, as I said, it's also we have to love our body.

We have to know, um, um, what we like and how to like also learn how to explore that on our own. And, um, yeah, like make it a bit of, uh, make it a bit of like a ritual. Like, um, it can be very healing. It can be very healing, and it can be very liberating. 

And 

I think a lot of men would probably struggle with this 'cause um, 

yeah, 

like as I said, masturbating could be some, you know, like a five minute quickie in the bathroom or a shower or like in between, I don't know, some shift and somewhere to go.

I don't know. But, um, I guess as you know, energy wise, it's, it can be perceived more feminine. Uh, 

yeah, 

because it's the sensual piece and it's like the slowing down, whereas we're conditioned to like, you know, just thrust and go and be fast and like get it in and go out. And so it was very challenging for me as well.

Right. Because, because of the porn and you know, like how the men are, I'd never thought that that would be healing and medicinal, but it totally is. So I want to like, bring this to the space and offer it to the conversation. What's your, do you have any experience with something like this is like, um, anything I talked about it just, yeah.

Do you? Uh, 

yeah. 

The Role of Spirituality and Inner Work

I mean, so I think one of the things that really was important for me, um, well, first of all, like there's like the whole like spirituality side of things that mm-hmm. Transformed everything in 2023. 

Oh yeah. I'd love 

to. 

To this. Yeah. 

Yeah. And then there's also actually a little bit after, in 2024, I came across the, the concept of the, the anima from, from Carl Jung.

Yeah. 

And so we gonna 

talk about Jung. Let's do it. Yeah. 

Yeah. And there was a book from, um, Robert, a Johnson called. Okay. Um, well, there, there's a lot. I love a lot of his stuff too, actually. But there was, um, he, and then there was also, um, which kind of goes into like how a man like relates to the anima and all that sort of stuff, but also, or like his inner feminine.

Yeah. But then also there's another book. He was like, healing your own shadow. There's that, um, exercise that Carl Jung does, which is called like active Imagination, I believe. 

Mm-hmm. 

Exploring Inner Archetypes

Where you, you dialogue with like the certain, with like the different archetypes 

within yourself? Oh yeah. This I, oh, okay.

Now we're, yeah, we're, we're going into some good territory.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And 

that's, that's how it was, that's how I started. Like, actually to me, that was very also healing and like the way that I relate to just women in general and also to like, you know, my own inner like feminine and all that sort of stuff is literally just talking to my anima. 

Aaron’s Inner Feminine and Anima Work

And it's funny too, I, have you seen the movie Crazy Rich Asians?

Crazy Rich Asians? 

Yeah. 

No. Is it new? 

Okay. It's, it came out maybe like 2018 or something around there. 

Crazy Rich Asians is, no, 

yeah, I saw it at the time. And like, there's a really beautiful like, um, woman there in, in the, uh. Movie. And so that's when I started getting into the anime work. And she was British.

So like whenever I picture my anima, she has like a British accent whenever, like I'm doing the active imagination and like writing down whether, yeah, that was 

Journaling Conversations with Anima

just the So you, you journal, you journal the convo with your inner feminine anima? 

I ba yeah. Basically it's like, um, like, oh, I'm writing my thing and then I write the animas thing next, 

basically.

Ah, this is, I love that you're bringing this up man. Honestly, this is so good because it's such a big part of my journey as well. But uh, for me it's more so yeah, writing. I write every day. I, you know, I do my morning pages and writing is, um, a one, but also like embodiment. 

Embodiment and Aspecting Techniques

So the, I actually learned, I learned this when I went to my first, um, workshop in Montreal.

And um, I dunno if you've heard the word aspecting as far as. Uh, as far as this process is concerned, so basically let's say instead of like writing to your, uh, anima and, you know, responding as your anima through, uh, writing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Basically you could set up like props, cushions, pillows, anything.

Mm-hmm. 

Um, and you, you literally, em, like you move so that you embody. 

Oh, wow. Okay. 

And it's so fucking powerfuls. And like, when I was first introduced to this, I was like, I'm like gonna talk to myself or, you know, like, yeah, this is like, but basically, so let's say yeah, we're, let's, I'm sitting down on this pillow and I would be me, like, which I would be technically in my masculine.

And then I set up a pillow across from me and I'm speaking and I direct the conversation to the pillow as my anima. 

Mm-hmm. 

It, it's incredible. The conversation actually, like takes hold because the energy like comes through and like speaks. So, you know, as you're writing, wow, your animas, like you're responding as your anima.

It's the same thing. Like, and you actually move and you go sit on the pillow. And I noticed like even mannerisms were changing and, uh, my like posture was changing. Like I was really in the energy of my feminine and it was like a conversation. So my feminine was responding and then I'd come back into like the masculine pillow and the masculine would respond.

And it's like, it was fucking mind blowing because like, that's 

wow. 

You, like, you see it, you embody it. Then like you, yeah. You just get like really incredible information. So I love that you, and then you, I see. You're like, I'm gonna try this. 

Yeah, yeah. No, I, I literally feel it, like, I'm like, wow, this is so cool.

So, yeah, I mean, it's basically what you described with the, with the writing, but you, it's more embodiment, it's more like movement and, um, what, like, as I said, what really startled me was like how my whole body and, um, energy changed when I was like cycling through the pillows. And it was, it was energy. It wasn't, it wasn't like, oh, I have to like act like a woman.

'cause, and it's not like I was acting like a woman. 

Masculine and Feminine Dynamics

It's just the energy became softer, obviously, because the, the masculine feminine conversation, usually the feminine is like. About the, the part of us that doesn't feel safe, that doesn't feel seen, doesn't feel heard, um, emotional, right? Like that's the emotional aspect.

And then the masculine's about like the, the space holding. And um, also like when I mean there tech, let's say there wound, you know, there's wounded femininity and wounded masculinity and you know, they're both tech quote unquote hurting each other. The masculine usually wants that hyper control, right?

It's like trying to suppress the feminine as much as possible because she's, you know, emotional and volatile and she's the movement and all that. So it's interesting when like that, um, surfaces as a conversation between both. 

Wow. Dude, that's, that's awesome. 

Active Imagination and Anima Dialogues

So, uh, in your experience with active, uh, imagination and writing, what was some, let's say, I dunno if you remember, or what was some things that were coming up for you as like your anima conversation and if you, if you'd like to share, if you remember, or is this something you still practice?

I don't do it as like much, but it's like, I feel like I can just kind of access 

Yeah. 

For now, without having to, it 

became more, it's like more natural now. 

Yeah. 

Because I guess they're more, they're more integrated, like, right. Would you say they're more Yes. Like your, your energies are more integrated? 

I would, I would, I would say so.

Yeah. Like, I think, I think like one of the things, yeah, I actually, I was like talking in my active imagination and my anima was like, I forgot, I named her something too. Fuck. But she, but I, I'm just gonna say she for this 

Yeah, yeah. 

For this like, case, you know, but she, she was basically saying like, like, are you there?

And I'll, I'll like, I'll say like, are you there? And she is, she'll be like, always, always. Wa always was like, stuff like that. Like, she's always there, never left. Like, it's not something that like, she's not like outside of me coming and 

going. Yeah, yeah. 

But she was always there. She's always 

there. 

And even stuff like, like I would picture her crying and being like, you just like, like I'm watching you, like, destroy yourself and be in all this pain and I wish I could help you, but like, I can't, it's like, I can't reach you.

Like, she'll say stuff like that. Like when I do the active imagination and it's like, it's like you're trying to like, yeah. It's like, I don't know if you've heard of like when people, sometimes if they get in a coma. Like, they can still be, like, they can wake up from the coma, but they have no control of their body or anything like that.

That's, that's kind of like how I picture it, like from her perspective is like fascinating. She's, she cannot like, do anything basically, even though like she's right there experiencing literally everything that I'm al I'm also experiencing. 

And do you feel like this was like her, the, or the nurturing part of you?

The, that feminine soft, nurturing energy that obviously when we're like in the porn and or the conditioning and like we're, we're, you know, it's that hyper hard, rigid, masculine energy right. And that feminine mm-hmm. And obviously we're, we're witnessing the feminine on porn being, um, you know, tossed around and fucked like a piece of meat and, um mm-hmm.

That's, that part of us does get really, like shut down because a part of us as men and having access to our anima or feminine energy is to soften and to feel like we can nurture and also like be receptive, right? Like the, the feminine is the receptive. So, or one aspect of the feminine is the softening and the receiving.

So when she was telling you this, was there like a, a sense of like, what was your masculine's, um, you know, response to her or his reaction, or, you know, you as Aaron writing to her? 

Mm-hmm. 

Was it, was it anger? Was it resentment? Was it blame? 

Mm-hmm. 

What 

it was at first. Yeah. It was like, it was like, it had like multiple things at once, dude.

Yeah. It was like resentment and then anger and then being like, we, well, I didn't see you. Where the hell were you? Yeah. You know, like that kind of thing, like a little defensiveness almost. And um, I think it kind of just like, it speaks to the part of myself that feels like I have to do everything on my own and I have to like, like I can't rely on anybody else except myself.

It's like the same thing. 

Oh, yeah. 

And yeah. Uh, but then I think also once I got through that and once I continued to dialogue with the anima, I could almost kind of start feeling myself like, okay, 

yeah, all right, you're not, you're not alone. And it's interesting you mention that. 'cause, um, a or

Wounded Masculinity and the Phallus 

one expression of wounded masculinity is that I have to do everything alone and that, um, I am alone and, um, I have to take care of everyone.

And am I good enough? Am I enough? Right? Like. I think, and this, I think this goes back to like the, the, the penis, uh, size piece. Like we're mm-hmm. You know, mentally when we're just thinking about our size, that's also quite, uh, symbolic. It's, you know, what our, obviously like our, our penis is an aspect of our masculinity, and it's like the part of our body that like, erects and protrudes and take takes up space.

Hmm. So like, if we're psychologically questioning if we're enough, are we, you know, can we measure up to do this? And, um, it can, I, I think that's, I think that's very, um, what do you call it? Like, it, it just connects the pieces. You know, it's not, let's say when we have our issues with our penis size, it's not just about the penis, it's our whole perception of who we are and not, not the penis, but like, as men. Because as men we wanna like, take up space. We want to be confident, we want to quote unquote erect and be solid. And you know, like that's a part of masculine energy, so mm-hmm. When we're quote unquote taking it out on our penis, I think that's just the, um, I think that's just like the surface level.

Um, um, yeah. What do you call it? Uh, like, uh, like the surface level, um, receiving end I wanna say punching bag, but it's not a punching bag, but yeah, you catch my drift, like mm-hmm. We blame that, but that's not really the problem. It's the, it's a psychological thing. It's an emotional thing. 

Mm. Jung would probably say it's a, it's a calling.

It's huh? 

To go in or it's a calling to go inner or to go inside. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. The image of a sword comes to my mind for some reason. 

A sword. 

Yeah. Like when, yeah. I dunno why that came to my, came to my head. 

That's, it's a, I mean, it's a phallic, it's a phallic symbol. Mm 

mm-hmm. 

It's a phallic symbol. And, um, you know, the phallus in itself, like the erect penis as a symbol.

It's traveling, it, it's traveling through the ages. It's, it's, it's prominent across ancient civilizations. Uh, it's one of Shiva's symbols, right? Like the lingam in Hindu tantra. It's one of the symbols of the ancient Greek God Dionysus. And it's not about, like, it's not the erect penis for the sake of like getting off and penetrating.

It's, it's a symbol of rebirth. It's a symbol of like fertility and virility and it's, um, you know, it's the, it's the masculine force of creation. 

Hmm. 

And the blade, you mentioned the sword. You know, the sword is about cutting. It's about slicing and yeah, it's painful. But that's also part of creation because we also need to cut away and, um, get rid of old life.

Old life that has run its course old life that has expired, right? Like, when we wanna get rid of porn, we need to draw our swords, metaphorically speaking. 

Mm-hmm. 

And cut it, cut it away. And it's painful and it's hard, but that's, uh, the part of the masculine energy. So that's so interesting that you, you got an image of a sword during this conversation.

Yeah, man. Yeah.

So, uh, there's actually something else I had on my mind. I was like, I want to touch base with something you said. Mm-hmm. But we, you know, we kind of, we went down the Jung route. And that really excited me. Um, my mom. Yeah. I wanted to ask, have you, so during your recovery, did you come across the science, like the whole, the brain is plastic, you need to recondition the pathways?

Like what, what, as far as research is concerned, did, did you do anything or did you come across anything? 

Dude, honestly, I'm, I'm not gonna lie, I, I, it's funny too 'cause like I am into like science and all that first stuff, but I really, in all honesty, I barely 

Okay, so you just 

barely cut 

the porn and like, living life and 

it, well, the thing is like, it, it felt so, at least in terms of recovery, like it wasn't really the science, but I would say it was like intuitive in that like, it's just like.

I would get this feeling after watching porn every single time. I'm like, dude, something is just this, just this does not feel right. Like, 

yeah, 

you know, it, this doesn't feel good. Whereas like, you know, when I got, when I, when I leave the gym, when I get home from the gym, I'm like, every time I'm like, oh yeah, I'm, 

yeah, 

I'm really glad I went to the gym.

You know? So it was like, it was, it was more like I would go into forums and look up like, Hey, is it okay to masturbate all the time? Or like, and that's how I eventually came across the whole concept of no fab, 

right? 

And there's even r slash no r slash no fap, and then there's R slash um, no porn. So there was like, I would kind of drift in between where I would, I would try to quit and then, or I would try to quit watching porn and then I'd be like, okay.

My brain would be like, Hey, well don't watch porn. How about you? Just like, how about you just like masturbate? And then, 

right. 

The thing is, it's a slippery slope. I'll start. And I'll just get back into porn. 

Yeah. You know? 

Yeah. 

That's why I think the, the whole masturbating thing, especially when you're in the beginning, I do agree.

Mm-hmm. 'cause I saw it in my experience as well. Like it can trigger you mm-hmm. To go watch. Um, but then, yeah, I think obviously eventually we should develop a healthy, conscious self-pleasuring, um, uh, routine as well. That obviously mm-hmm. Doesn't trigger you to go watch porn, but it, it's also about instilling that presence because that's really, that's really what's missing.

'cause when we're watching porn, we're not, we're not, yeah, okay. We're like sitting in front of a laptop or a phone or whatever, and we're, we're present, quote unquote, physically, but we're not energetically present because we're so, 

yeah. 

We're so stimulated by the visuals. It's all like, it's purely cerebral.

Right. Whereas. Uh, sensuality and, you know, sexual intimacies fully being present in your body. 

Yes. 

Um, 

yes 

and or something else. What did you say? You, you're saying the thing that you, it's funny 'cause you're, you're, you're saying something and I'm like, oh, I want to, like, touch up on that. But then like, you know, 

we find another, 

another 

thread, 

but honestly, man, I really, I'm really like loving this convo and I, I appreciate how open you are and there's just some things that, um, you brought to the space that I've been wanting to bring on my solo podcast.

But I think through conversation it's even more, um, it's even more, uh, uh, potent more powerful. Yeah. Ah, like tin 

balls, 

shadow work. Yeah, 

Uhhuh. 

Shadow Work and Inner Child Healing

So Aaron, before you mentioned shadow work. Mm-hmm. Um, and we've been talking about Jung, so shadow work is obviously a concept from, uh, Jung and speaks to facing like are denied, rejected, darker, disowned parts.

I've talked quite a bit about the shadow on this podcast. I'd love to hear your experience with Shadow Work, what you've read, what stood out for you, and maybe any like, you know, practices or, um, resources that you'd like to share. 

Yeah. Um, so yeah, I, it was again the Robert, Robert A. Johnson, like, his books like really kind of got me into that, that whole space.

Um, I guess like his definition of the shadows, like all the stuff that you kind of. Don't like about yourself, I guess. Or they get trained out of you by society and sometimes it's good and bad. Yeah. And so, but I have found from my, from my experience, like talking with like the shadow is so, like the way, usually the way I relate outwardly to the world is like, kind of nice, like super nice guy, like chill.

And I liked to think that I was just that. But also in doing shadow work, I also noticed that, oh man, I actually can be like really fucking petty. Um, there, there's like a little bit of, a lot little, a lot of anger in there. A lot of, um, all sorts of like, um, what's, what else? Like, uh, deceitful have you, have you read the book or have you heard the, the No More Mr.

Nice guy. Um, that sort of stuff. 

Like, kind of like the nice guy syndrome. Like the p the people pleaser type. 

Yeah. 

Yeah, 

yeah. Pretty much. It's like, it was kind of like classic like people pleaser stuff, right? Where it's like, okay, you're nice, but then internally you're kind of manipulative and it's don't what 

SI think like it's about, 

yeah.

Yeah. And so, but there's a lot of like, or at least I noticed, there are parts of myself that are very angry, like, almost like, yeah, just, just angry with everything. And it's like, oh, what the heck? What the hell do I do with that? You know? At least that's what I've found encountered upon my own, um, journey.

It almost kinda like, to me, like it almost makes me feel bad for people who are like, just evil or anything like that. 'cause it's like, man, they, they really just like succumbed to their own. 

Yeah. 

One off to their own. 

Yeah. One off, like one off the rails. Like Yeah. There's one off the edge. 

Yeah. To me, like I look at it like, oh, it's just a, it's a very crazy river.

But I have also, um, dialogue with the shadow. We can, we can zoom in on more stuff if you want. 

Yeah. So how would you, in your experience with porn addiction and watching porn and recovery, how would you 

Yeah. 

Tie in shadow work to that? Like, did you see us, 'cause obviously shadows about like when we mm-hmm.

Especially when we're dealing with others, we tend to project or shadow, right? Like we, we see sometimes someone that triggers us, they're technically like mirroring that aspect of our shadow that we haven't really held space for that hasn't been, hasn't been made as conscious. 

Mm-hmm. 

So how would you relate that to your experience with porn?

Do you feel like there was an aspect of your shadow is what I'm asking, when you were watching pornography? Yeah, 

so I mean, for one thing, um, like, just like, I guess maybe on a broad level, like I had all this like gunk this, this energy within me that was just like getting pushed down and like the only way I could, the only, at least at the time, the only way I could see that I can kind of release this is through an equally extreme form of, of porn.

And like as I began to, I guess, metabolize and open up this part of myself in a controlled manner, I did not, I naturally did not need as much extreme stimulation such as porn over time. But also like on a, on a deeper level, like in terms of projection, like, like something that comes to mind right now is, um, there was like, because of like, there's like low self-esteem.

And then also just kind of a little bit of like, and I, I've noticed this too, almost, this kind of, I don't wanna say incel, but like a little bit like resentment towards women in a way that was in there because like, oh, you didn't, you didn't choose me. You chose like all those other guys who are more tall and you know, more fit.

And I'm here and I'm like, fat and all that, all that sort of stuff. And it was only when I started like actually realizing, oh, that's actually a really wounded part of myself. That's, I'm not, that I've just been like kind of letting off to the side. Uh, and it's actually, no, I need to look at this and I need to like, I need to love this and give, like, there's like that inner child work where like, oh, this is like a wounded version of myself that I need to go in and like, you know, embrace and help heal.

And that's also when I started not resenting women as much and then also not having to be as lonely and then not having to go to porn to like temporarily relief or get some sort of relief from that. 

Yeah. Thanks for, uh, thanks for like painting that picture. 'cause it's really, yeah. That's also been my, my journey And you, you explained it really well.

Um, I want to touch base with, you said at the beginning your the, you felt your energy was getting suppressed and you were compensating with hyperstimulation through pornography. When you, what energy, was it your sexual energy? Like your or your, your, your primal energy? Like that part of 

you? I would say so, yeah.

Um, yeah. Good, good question. 

Integrating Primal Energy and Spirituality

I think like, the way, the way I see it is like, like at least from, from my, from what I, yeah, from what I see is the shadow or like, you have all this stuff within you that's like swirling around and if you don't look at it and if you just try and ignore it, then it's just like, kind of like a little volcano that's just waiting to erupt and, yeah.

If you just keep trying to press it down, well then like it, it has, it has to go somewhere, you know? So I think it's like 

a hundred percent it needs to, it needs to express, it needs to express itself. Yeah. No, just 'cause you, ri you reminded me, and I've mentioned this in my previous episodes, um mm-hmm. You know, primal energy, right?

Yeah. Like sexual energy. I think obviously there's so much miscommunication, especially growing up as to like what that actually is. We don't really 

mm-hmm. 

Talk about it, you know, within the school systems, the cultural systems, the religious systems. Yeah. Even maybe family systems, depending on That's true.

Your upbringing. So there's like a huge, I think already we're, we're already, um. We're already, like, we've lost the battle because we have such little information and knowledge as to what this part of us is. And it, I'm not talking just the sexual piece, but just like the Yeah, the primal, like the primal, yeah.

Energy, right? Like the sexual expression is just under like, um, the umbrella of like the primal, which encompasses also survival food, money eating, right. Like, um, so I think most of us are taught, like this part of us is bad, like the animal. Mm-hmm part of us is bad. It's also, you know, obviously I think because, um, of our upbringing and, you know, we're, we're conditioned to also reject our private parts and, you know, our sex organs and, you know, it's like that part of us that we have to hide and uh, you know, we like.

Shit from there and piss from there and, you know, all kinds of stuff like comes out from there. Yeah. It's like 

mm-hmm. 

So already that's like, so unconscious and then 

Yeah. 

The shadows in the unconscious so it gets, everything kind of becomes like one big, I'm thinking you said like a volcano or, you know, spiral.

Yeah. Yeah. You said something like with the volcano and, and I think it really also just amplifies that shadow. It really just, um, you know, makes it seem like a big, bad monster when, as you said mm-hmm. It's really all about inner child, like wounding. Mm-hmm. And loving. 'cause like we can, let's say, depending on what we're experiencing and what we're moving through, project our shadow as like a huge, big, like undefeatable monster.

Or we can realize that it's just carrying like the inner child wounding. 'cause that's the origin of the shadow is just our repressed and suppressed like trauma and you know, what we, what we experienced as children when we were young, and so on and so forth. So it's really just like learning to love this aspect of ourselves.

Mm-hmm. And we could call it shadow, we can call it inner child and even like the primal part of us, because we do need to integrate that primal aspect of us. I keep saying this time and time again and, um, it's been such a big part of my journey because I think, you know, looking back it was really like this misunderstanding or this, this knowledge that I had that like my animal, the animal part of me, not even the shadow, just the animal part of me is bad.

It's bad. And, um, you men, you, you mentioned before spirituality, so I think this would be a good opportunity or, you know, to come in here with a spiritual piece, but mm-hmm. Obviously, like we learn that the animal is the opposite or has nothing to do with Spiritu spirituality when they have everything to do with each other.

Because from the spiritual aspect, everything is here because of the Great Spirit God source, the higher force. What do you, uh, what do you, what do you think about this? And you mentioned spiritual part of your, your journey. I'd love for you to touch, uh, touch upon that a little bit. 

Have you, have you read the book Er, or like the, the manga er, have you heard of it?

No. 

It's, it's like one of my favorite, favorite stories ever. Um, 

B er, I'll, 

yeah, 

I'll look into that. 

Yeah. But I, I, I was just, it just really came to my mind right now because like, I, there's the, the villain, they call him the hawk of light and he wears all white. 

Mm-hmm. 

And the protagonist, which is like the good guy, he wears all black.

Interesting. 

And he, like, one of the central, um, things in the story is that he has to learn how to work with this, this inner beast of darkness, which takes on the form of like this rabid wolf. Yeah. And it's like, it literally like, and he, it's a, he has a special, he has a special armor that lets him like be super strong, but if he gets too consumed by the rage, it literally destroys his.

It corrupts his soul and it destroys his body. Okay. If he doesn't learn how to like use it correctly and it has like, 

wow. 

Yeah. 

Send me the info after. I'd love to, uh, look into this. 

Yeah. Yeah. It's basically like a a comic, like Japanese manga. It 

sounds very like, very familiar. It sounds like just gotta tame that beast that is not going anywhere.

'cause that that part of us needs love. That needs, 

yeah. 

Compassion and understanding and safety and, yeah. 

Yes. And so it's interesting 'cause the Hawk of Light used to be a human too. Like he was actually friends with a protagonist. There's a whole story. But he basically, like, he had this ambition and he basically, there was like this ritual thing that he did and he sacrificed all the parts of himself and like all the weak parts of himself so that he could finally be strong and, you know, become the light.

Wow. 

And. Yeah. So, um, I think of, I think about that a lot when it comes to like discussions of, of like spirituality and like shadow work because obviously we can see as the audience that the protagonist is the more like enlightened one. In this case, if we were to like make a, like a comparison right, of the two because he's actually doing the work of integrating that stuff within him, even as ugly as it is 'cause like it literally destroys his body versus the guy who just kind of tried to reject everything else.

And so that's, to me it's like symbolic. Yeah, I think about that story. I think about that story a lot. But I think, I think it's a good way to illustrate the kind of the interaction between shadow work and, and spirituality. I think that is part of the path. You can meditate, that's cool too. And all that sort of, so you can like, forget it all and go to a mountain and meditate.

Like that's a valid channel for that. And going through the ugliness of seeing the parts within yourself, at least from what I've noticed is also is also the work or spirit at work. 

Definitely. It seems like. Yeah. And it's, um, I think, you know, as far as spirituality's concerned, we, there's, you know, that's a whole other, it's, it's a whole other, um, discussion, I think.

'cause it's, it's so big, it's so loaded. But for me and what I've learned, at the end of the day, it's about embodiment and being in this body. Mm-hmm. And doing the day to day mundane, making your coffee going out, smelling like the fresh air. 

Yeah. 

Going in the sea, having good company enjoying a meal, like that's all spiritual.

Um. Mm-hmm. You know? I think, you know, we use the word consciousness a lot in the spiritual communities and yes, it is about having a certain consciousness or even awareness For me, they're synonyms. Some people would disagree, but it is about just having a certain awareness and presence in everything that you do.

'cause like you can, you have someone who can like, rush to work and like, try and, you know, chug their coffee down so that they, it it's done by the time they get there. Or you have someone that like, takes their time and is present and enjoys the coffee. Everything is spiritual. 'cause everything came from, you know, the, the, the great, the, the great source, uh, oneness.

But the person like taking their time and really being conscious with the coffee. Uh, I think that to me, yeah, you could like, looks like practicing spirituality and it's also just being. Um, present in your body and in your, in your present circumstances and not so much about turning down the lights and, you know, meditating and trying to like go inward.

I think that that's definitely a part of it and needed and necessary. And I believe everybody should meditate in some way, shape or form. Uh, doesn't mean, like you said, you have to go out on some mountain and, you know, stay there all day, but it's just bringing it back to presence and awareness and I think that's how we can just be like fully human with all our shit and baggage and also be spiritual at the same time.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

Yeah, so I think, uh, I think this is a good, uh, spot to end the convo. Uh, yeah, we're this really passed very fast. I'd love to, you know, talk more, but I don't want the episode to be too long. Just to close off the episode, Aaron, first of all, thank you for coming on again. 

Thank 

you. I really, thanks for having me.

I enjoy your presence on threads. Um, I'm really glad this, uh, this happened and I hope we can continue to cultivate this new, uh, friendship. But 

you too, man. 

Yeah. 

Final Thoughts and Advice on Porn Addiction

In closing, for anybody, let's say, who is suffering from porn addiction or wants to quit and um, uh, needs some advice, needs some help, what would you say to that man here?

I think, I think it's really important to be like, first of all, kind to yourself and understanding of yourself on this journey. 'cause it's hard. And I think also like remember to pat yourself on the back because like the fact that you have this awareness that, oh man, this is something that is not serving me, that already speaks to your own sort of, i, I guess, developments or your beingness.

And I have never hated myself to my goals. I have never hated myself to my goals. If anything, it always is a hindrance to actually achieving my goals. So I think something that you would be very helpful to ask me is to just do like, be kind to yourself and remember, like just be, be look back and just kind of give yourself credit and take the wins as small as they are.

That's, that's all I can say. 

Awesome. Thank you. Thank you Aaron for that. So, um, for everybody listening and everybody on YouTube on the podcast platforms, thank you for tuning in. I will be back next week, of course, uh, every Thursday here on Bridger of Worlds masculine Embodiments Spiritual Awakening podcast.

And as always, please remember that you are the medicine and I am just the messenger. Thank you very much.