Between the Headlines: Columbus
Between the Headlines dives deep into the stories shaping Columbus and Lowndes County, Mississippi. Hosted by The Commercial Dispatch managing editor Zack Plair and local businessman and commentator David Chism, this show goes beyond the front page to bring you the real conversations behind local politics, policies and people. Zack’s journalistic expertise and David’s insight deliver in-depth analysis, spirited debate, and behind-the-scenes context you won’t get anywhere else. It's honest discussion on what matters.
Between the Headlines: Columbus
MSMS Move Recommended; Jason Spears Interview; Ward 6 Dilemmas; Mickens' Legal Loss
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A seismic shift is coming to Columbus as the MS Board of Education unanimously votes to recommend relocating Mississippi School for Mathematics and Science (MSMS) from Mississippi University for Women to Mississippi State University. With only legislative approval standing in the way, this decision threatens to leave a gaping hole in MUW's campus, where MSMS students currently represent 10% of the student population and 40% of residential students on campus.
Questions abound regarding the evaluation process that led to this decision, with MSU scoring 363 points to MUW's 304 on a mysterious rubric developed behind closed doors. Critics point to the fiscal absurdity of planning to invest money to improve MSMS facilities at MUW even as they prepare to abandon them. Most troubling to many is MUW President Nora Miller's apparent acquiescence, with her last-minute demand for increased fees from MSMS raising eyebrows about her true priorities.
The podcast also explores Ward 6 City Council candidate Jason Spears' vision for Columbus, as he emphasizes the need for better financial management, infrastructure improvements, and stronger relationships with county officials. Spears, drawing on his decade of school board experience and financial expertise, highlights drainage issues across Ward 6 neighborhoods and advocates for a more methodical approach to city growth and development projects like Burns Bottom.
Local politics took another turn as Joe Mickens lost his court challenge questioning opponent residencies in Ward 2, clearing the path for "Mrs. She She" O'Neil and Roderick Smith to remain on the ballot. With the MSMS decision now heading to the legislature and city elections approaching, Columbus stands at a crossroads that will determine its future for generations to come. Will our representatives fight to the last man, or will they negotiate terms of surrender as the "Babylonian invasion" continues?
Introduction
Speaker 1From the opinion page of the Commercial Dispatch. This is Between the Headlines.
Speaker 3This is Peter Imes, publisher of the Dispatch. One of our hosts of Between the Headlines is the managing editor of our newsroom. Typically we try to keep news and opinions separate, but reporters have a unique insight into the workings of local government and their analysis can be helpful for readers and listeners. The dispatch remains committed to journalistic integrity and our reporting will always reflect that. And now Between the Headlines.
Speaker 4Ladies and gentlemen, buckle your safety belt. Today, on Between the Headlines, we have late breaking news out of Jackson, where the Mississippi Department of Education Board has voted unanimously to accept the recommendation of the MSMS subcommittee who are two people, by the way to move MSMS from here to Starkville. We will bemoan this and unpack it and say what this is going to mean and talk about what's going to happen going forward. But in lighter news, today we also have special guest, mr jason spears, candidate for ward six. We will talk about um the situation happening in that primary race and, last but not least, that's it. So says Shishi, o'neill and Roderick, who have arisen victorious in their court battle waged by Mr Joe Mickens. But first a word from our sponsors.
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Speaker 2I want to thank the Commercial Dispatch for this podcast, bringing different views in an open discussion. I'm Bill Strauss, humbly asking for your vote as next mayor of Columbus. You deserve transparency and accountability for your tax dollars. I'm business friendly and charitable. Vote Bill Strauss mayor of Columbus 2025. Paid for by campaign to elect Bill Strauss.
Speaker 4And now a message from political candidate Jason Spears.
Speaker 5I am Jason Spears, candidate for City Council, Ward 6. Over the past 20 years, I faithfully and effectively served our community in many different ways. If elected, I will bring structure and strategy to the city's finances, help develop a blueprint to capitalize on the growing economic activity in our city and work to strengthen relationships with Lowndes County officials, the Golden Triangle Development Link and, most importantly, you, the citizens of Columbus. I approve this message and, on April 1st, vote Jason Spears for Ward 6, paid for by the campaign to elect Jason Spears.
Speaker 1Well, David, I don't know if Mississippi State's going to beat Baylor tomorrow in the NCAA tournament, but they did evidently beat Mississippi University for Women in Jackson today by a score of 363 to 304, from what I understand.
Speaker 4That number representing the rubric score of the two proposals, respectively, that were submitted by MUW and by Mississippi State.
Speaker 1Yes, no word on what that rubric was or who even created it. They're talking about creating the RFP, like the request for proposals the State Board of Education is asking at Thursday's hearing. They're sitting there wondering who created the request for proposals. Well, I thought it was them. Didn't they create that? Didn't they approve that?
Speaker 4Creates more questions than answers. But just to break it down, the board has voted to move MSMS from MUW to Mississippi State, as we've been warning about.
Speaker 4That's pending legislative approval, Pending legislative approval. Now what's next? What's going to happen? Okay, it is too late for a general bill to be proposed from the legislature, but it's not too late this session for them to amend an appropriation bill and add something in there which I think would be totally illegal, which could be put to the Mississippi Supreme Court, which might be a waste of money because it would do nothing but buy us time Nonetheless, I mean you also have the bond bill that's going to be building an essay or a store of a high school.
Speaker 1So I mean, does it get affixed to that? Also have the bond bill that's going to be, uh, build an essay or start a high school. So I mean, does it get affixed to that? I don't really know the I'm. I'm not going to pretend like I know the all of the nuts and bolts of that, but, uh, whenever they do it, they're going to have the opportunity to vote on it per a unanimous recommendation from the state board of education. Now I think that one important part of this is that they're estimating two to two and a half years to actually get the school moved, and they acknowledge that. You know something needs to be done with the living conditions of these kids at the existing MSMS campus at MUW. Something needs to be done with that.
Speaker 1They need to invest some money there to make the next two to two and a half years, you know, be more comfortable for them. After the last decade or so, that hasn't mattered to them and for me. Why would you bother investing money into fixing dorms that you're going to move them out of, fixing facilities that you're going to move them out of? If you're going to invest the money to fix the facilities that you're going to move them out of, why don't you just leave them there?
Speaker 4Well, they're going to drop seven, maybe eight figures, let's just say seven on either improving or building something. Meanwhile, in the Hooper building they're doing without an air conditioner, like some school from the 1960s, you know, the black school back in the sad times of segregation, or like some second world country. And here you and I on this show have been talking the whole time. Instead of recreating the will, instead of totally throwing the baby out with the bathwater, totally throwing the baby out with the bathwater, fix the part that is broke, the part being not the system, not the academics, not the results, the facilities, the buildings, the air conditioner, the dorm and they've had since what?
Speaker 11987 to do it and hadn't done anything about it. Now, all of a sudden they're so concerned about it to where now they're willing to do both fix the ones, anything about it. Now, all of a sudden they're so concerned about it to where now they're willing to do both fix the ones here and build some over there. And that doesn't make any sense to me and that doesn't seem fiscally responsible. But you know, it begs the question if the fix was in all along. And I'll let you take that one.
Speaker 4Well, absolutely fiscally irresponsible, in the sense that you're going to have 81 out of 82 counties footing the bill for a school. Okay, just to kind of back up and look at this, you've got Starkville Partnership Middle School. Okay, which was kind of state funded right. Yeah, likewise the same thing. This, according to the proposal, would be state funded, right.
Speaker 1So again partially yeah, partly.
Speaker 4Octavia. Hawk County doesn't have to bond out as much to build their own dadgum school. Lowndes County gets to help pay for that. Prentiss County helps get to pay for that. So, yeah, definitely not fiscally responsible. But when you talk about, was the fix in, okay, was this a foregone conclusion? No, was it a foregone opportunity? I would say yes, zach. I have tried not to be cynical. I have tried not to paint the people who are looking after our kids and looking after the education system in general, not to paint them in such a dark fashion. But it is really really hard at this point in time. Andy Boyd, last week I talked to him. He had to kind of talk me off of a cliff because I was losing my mind in this conspiratorial type thinking. But when things happen behind closed doors, when you have a subcommittee of two people making these recommendations, it really, really makes it hard to give people the benefit of a doubt. This is a shady situation and the result of it is going to be very dire.
MUW's Oddly Timed Fee Increase For MSMS
Speaker 1Well, whether the fix was in or not, there's some things I want to address here. First of all, evidently something that came up at the board meeting Thursday in Jackson Nora drops a rent demand or a fee demand or increasing the fees that MSMS pays to MUW to be there. Chooses yesterday to drop a demand of over a million dollars. Yeah, okay, so increasing fees is built into their proposal that they sent to mde, but yesterday, yesterday, david, um, it says a lot okay, and and and to me.
Speaker 1You know, I honestly, you know, from a practical standpoint it may be fair to ask for those fees, but yesterday the the. From a timing standpoint, it couldn't have been worse it? It leads me to my hottest take on this whole thing is is Nora Miller relieved by this result? Worse still, is this what she wanted all along? And, based on the timing of this and what can fairly be described as her utter lack of enthusiasm in the fight to keep MSMS here this entire time, I mean, does she see losing MSMS as a necessary casualty to get the legislative invaders off the W's lawn? And it seems like she might.
Speaker 1Apologies for the long rant here and apologies for getting a little biblical about it, but the very first thing that I thought of when I was hearing about all of this overnight, last night and this morning, the very first thing that I thought of was the Babylonian invasion of Jerusalem in the Old Testament. Oh boy, you know, the Babylonians showed up twice to Jerusalem in that story. The first time they didn't destroy the city, they just wait for it hauled off Jerusalem's best and brightest into captivity. You remember that part. But the Babylonians came back and when they did, they cut off Jerusalem's water supply, laid siege to the city until its citizens resorted to eating each other. So who are the Babylonians here? You know legislature, msu, it depends on who you ask, but you know they destroyed the city the second time and they carried the survivors off into captivity.
Speaker 4Is Nora a part Babylonian now?
Speaker 1I would think that she probably needs to pay close attention to Zedekiah's fate in that story, ooh boy.
Speaker 4Well, nora is—I'm sorry. She's just shown herself not to be willing to go down with the ship right now.
Speaker 1Well, and I mean again, is she kicking them off, Is she kicking them out so she can get the invaders off the line? That's my question.
Speaker 4She's a very, very smart woman and she has more conversations about this than anyone anyone and she is one of the few people that can go down underneath the deck and see how much water is pouring into the bilge of this ship. She sees the damage, she sees the writing on the wall and, in terms of her career, I guess she's put her family first, which I mean you can't blank, David.
Speaker 1David, you can't fend off invaders by negotiation, you can't pay tribute to them, you can't surrender territory to them, you can't let them take hostages. You fight hard, you fight dirty if you have to and you fight down to the last damn man if necessary. That way, if you lose David, you can at least hold your head up, say you left everything on the field. And it doesn't matter what Nora's motives are right here. It doesn't matter whether it was she didn't know, she just wasn't prepared, or she actually wanted this result in some way. She cannot hold her head up in this moment and she damn sure can't look at Columbus citizens, the W community or the alumni and say that she left everything on the field. She can't.
Speaker 4She has chosen to acquiesce. Yes, that's what I'm seeing, Because if you choose to fight, you also must choose to win. Yeah, and you know I'm sitting back looking at this thing. If Clyda Stokes' rent were president of MUW right now, people like Rob Robertson would be in her office begging forgiveness for all of this. This is a shame to the tradition of excellence for women and men, because the end result of it, if we don't play our cards right, we are going to have a giant hole in the city of Columbus. You're going to look. This is a Brian Foods level event that is about to go down.
Speaker 1It's going to hurt absolutely everybody.
Speaker 4A very good comparison, god forbid. Let me point out one thing, and that is Dr Evans, who was on that two-person subcommittee, is a graduate of Mississippi State. Clanga, clanga, clanga, I mean, all of these things play into this. I mean, we're all humans. I'm not saying that the best interest of the kids is not considered, but my goodness, the looks of it.
Speaker 1Well, I mean, I'm not going to throw any rocks at.
Speaker 4Mississippi State, here I mean.
Speaker 1I know you will. I'm not going to throw any rocks at Mississippi State because they saw it.
Speaker 4I have skipped the past three basketball games because I just can't stomach going out there right now. This is ugly, and it was. We're in pain.
Speaker 1Look they, they, you know at. The worst case scenario is they took and they took advantage of an opportunity that nor handed them on a plate. I'm not going to throw any rocks at Mississippi State for doing this and I'm going to say what I've said before, which I think that they will be the best steward they possibly can be for Mississippi School for Mathematics and Science, if it actually does end up going there by legislative vote. I think Babylon is more the legislature in this example.
Speaker 4There's no ball field, Zach. It's like a prison.
Speaker 1You don't know what it's going to be like David.
Speaker 4You just need a drawing. No, the drawings are awful. They're either going to bus them to go play ball, or they're going to let them cross the four lane and go play out in the cotton field, or they're going to let them God forbid share athletic facilities with NCAA Division I athletes.
Speaker 1I don't think that we have enough information to make those characterizations with any authority.
Speaker 4Well, I don't guess information is necessary. We're just going to push this thing through and let it be the death knell of MUW that it is. Look at the stats, look at the stats. Okay, that it is Okay. Look at the stats. Look at the stats. Okay, 10% of the student population on that campus is student, and of those that actually live there, 40% of them are.
Speaker 1MSMS. So what you're saying? Yes, 10% of the students that are on MUW's campus are MSMS students, Correct. And 40% of the students that live on the W campus are MSMS students and they've already got vacant buildings which? Brings me to the next question. Ok, nora Miller in her letter talking about how the her I will survive letter, her Gloria Gaynor letter in that Gloria Gaynor who did that song? Her Gloria Gaynor letter to the public, where we will survive if MSMS leaves you, remember that one.
Speaker 4I do.
Speaker 1From a month or so ago. She said well, if it leaves, we'll just repurpose it, ok. Well, you've got a. You've got a 40 percent hole now in your dormitories and you've got a 10 percent hole in the students walking around on your campus Plus the buildings that are already falling down and you're already the smallest school. You're already the smallest public university by enrollment in the state or one of them. You're either seventh or eighth. So tell me now, Nora, how will we survive the blue flag?
Legislators Have Ability to Prevent the Move
Speaker 4will come down and the maroon flag will come up and bulldozers will be all over the back of campus, or just vines. And that's what it's going to be, unless we. The only thing we have going for us is this caveat If it passes the legislature, you need a bill for this to happen.
Speaker 1OK, OK. So, which begs the question, and now we? And now we get to the challenge for those who can do something about it now, Dana Chuck Kabir, Andy you're up.
Speaker 4OK, they're definitely on board. I don't know how much seniority they have and how much leverage they will have to save it. I feel this is just David, figure it out.
Speaker 1They better, they better throw everything you've got at this or publicly admit that it doesn't matter to you. But I go back to what Nora should have done from the beginning and I will say it again to the four that we just challenged you fight hard, you fight dirty if you have to and you fight to the last man if necessary, period. Or you say you know what, we're fine with it, but either way say it, say one or the other, do the fighting. Or say you're fine with it but do one or the other.
Speaker 4I think the Mississippi House has got its hands full with this and that I don't think they want to do much with it. I think, frankly, that lower body is a madhouse right now and I don't think they want to do much with it. I think, frankly, that lower body is a madhouse right now and I don't trust them. I wish that I did, but I don't trust them. They'll pass the bill and it's going to be up to the Senate to save us.
Speaker 4OK, so you're saying Chuck, you're up, chuck, you're up, and we're either going to have to negotiate a path to victory or terms for divorce that don't leave a big hole in the back of campus.
Speaker 1Okay, yeah, what is the plan? Are we going to sit here?
Speaker 4and let the likes of Rob Robertson keep doing this to us, and and just let them take it La-di-da-da. There they go, they're gone. And now what? Okay, this is, uh, the battle of Wilmington. It is upon us.
Speaker 1Well, I'd go back to the challenges on Dana Kabir, chuck Andy, get to it.
Speaker 4And alum. I mean because because, quite honestly, you look down there at that legislature. I mean you and I aren't going to particularly care about what happens in tishomingo or places like that, but people care in that body what happens locally and so if you get, if you, if you cared about that name change so much that you were willing to make phone calls and go to the capitol and burn nora in effigy for even suggesting it Correct.
Speaker 1If that was your attitude, then what say you now?
Important Message
Speaker 4Well, I mean, really the only leg we have to stand on from a political, persuasive standpoint is we don't want to build a school for another county period. That's something that's going to resonate with the Senate and I think that might be the crux of our argument. Y'all read the paper, like I say, this stuff is just coming across our desk here in the studio. So read the paper, be informed and keep your seatbelt buckled. All right, well, that's that. But before we go any further, do you have knee pain, muscle weakness, swelling or cold feet? Call King Associates Cardiology for an appointment today at 662-368-1169. King Associates Cardiology we care and it shows.
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Speaker 1Next on the agenda Mickens has his day in court and loses. How about that? David Surprised.
Speaker 4I've not been less surprised about anything in my life. I mean, the only thing that did surprise me is how long it took to come to the decision. Now I'm looking at this, trying to be objective. The only thing in the whole situation that looked remotely permissible as evidence was that letter that I guess Mickens sent to.
Speaker 1Roderick's house. Somebody sent it to where Roderick supposedly lived and it came back to the sender, or whatever, and it had a stamp on it that said the wrong right like he's and the and the judge ultimately didn't find that to be nearly enough and you know, nor did he find the uh theoretical or anecdotal evidence of uh mcconn stalking his opponents to see where that was weird.
Speaker 4Yeah, that was pretty weird. That was bizarre. Can you imagine you're, you're at your home, or you're at your wife's home or whatever? The?
Speaker 1case is and mickens is on stakeout across the street eating a sandwich and looking well, no, he's.
Speaker 4he's in a pickup truck, he looks like w Walt Kowalski off of Gran Torino and he's like holding his little hand pistol at you.
Speaker 1It's really creepy stuff, but there is something I want to go into. It's something that we've reported in the paper at the time when it happened, but it's part of the complexities of this race that we haven't talked about on the podcast. I think it could be important.
Speaker 1In 2017,. Mickens lost the election day vote in Ward 2. This was the last time he had an opponent and he seemed like he was headed to a runoff with Eric Thomas, who was in first place by three votes when you just counted the election day votes of the ballot box. But in comes the absentees, and Mickens took those by a 178 to 15 margin. That's security re-election without even having to have a runoff in a three-person race. In Mississippi, if you're temporarily or permanently disabled, you can vote absentee and you can get any other adult to provide a witness signature on your ballot. Now, what that usually means is the person who brought you the ballot turns out to be the witness that puts their signature on it before it gets sent in Now in 2017, that same race where 178 of all the absentee votes went to Mickens and that's not just the disabled absentees.
Speaker 1Mickens' wife provided the witness signature for 30 of those absentee ballots in Ward 2, just in Ward 2. So maybe Mickens does have time to stalk his opponents after all. But there's another point here. Another layer is that same race. Guess who was one of the highest volume witness signatories on absentee ballots citywide?
Speaker 4I was out of town. I have no clue.
Speaker 1Her name was Sarah Deloach, who's now deceased, and, by all accounts, was a lovely lady. I met her a couple of times. She was great for city of columbus in a lot of ways. She volunteered and she sorely missed in the community, but she was a heavy hitter in the in absentee ballot witnessing in 2017 and in years prior. You want to know who her grandson is and in years prior.
Speaker 4You want to know who her grandson is.
Speaker 1Roderick Smith, Holy cow. So I don't even want to touch that. If Roderick's inherited political legacy is less Bronnie James and more Ken Griffey Jr, that could get interesting. And another thing that could get interesting is when you look at Ms Shishi. She seems to be pretty well known in that ward and has seemingly cozied up nicely to the local Democratic Party apparatus. So, I'm intrigued to see how all of this you know when you put all those three, three of those things together.
Speaker 4They're looking for somebody to cuddle up with, because Mickens is not going to cuddle up with them. Now, mickens has totally thrown his party under the bus, and it's been ugly, ugly.
Speaker 4I find it really noteworthy what Kabir Kareem said after this ruling came down. He said, basically this was a distraction. He said I am glad that this is behind us and now we can get back to doing more important things, the work of the people. It's like like my goodness, how do you say that one of your candidates is full of fecal matter without saying that he's full of fecal matter?
Speaker 1I mean he went so far as to say I think he went so far as to say this has been keeping me from doing my job as a House member.
Speaker 4Here we are. What two weeks out from the primary?
Speaker 1Yeah, and he better get to going, unless he's intending to win the same way he won in 2017, he better get to going.
Speaker 4The whole narrative has not focused on a single policy issue or a single collaboration, not one. It's all been. Are my opponents legally on the ballot?
Ward 6 Voters Face a Delimma
Speaker 1Get them off the ballot, because I would rather run unopposed than be afraid of them. We talked to Jason Spears earlier, who's running in Ward 6, and we'll have that interview as part of this podcast today. Table or you got to pick the Republican table. If you pick the Democratic table, you get to vote in the mayor's race. If you pick the Republican table and it's an open primary so anybody can choose either one but if you pick the Republican table, you get to vote in the Republican primary for Ward 6 council, which is Jason Spears versus Kimberly McCarty Davis. So if you're in Ward 6, david, I mean, I know you live out in the county but if you lived in the city and you lived in Ward 6, what would you do?
Speaker 4Well, if I like both of these candidates which I do then I'm very, very tempted to go in there and vote either for or against a certain mayoral candidate. I mean just being quite frank about it. Now, you know it's interesting to me. There are people who will go back through the records and they'll now, if I did that, they would say, oh man, chisholm voted in the Democrat line. And you know that would be like take your picture, oh man.
Speaker 1And it would be a black guy. We would have a standalone on the inside like Republican Party. Chair votes in Democratic primary. We're ready for you.
Speaker 4It's bad. I mean it is definitely frowned upon in certain circles. But if you look at places like West Point, I mean, where almost everything is run by the Democrat Party, I mean Republicans do that all the time there because they've learned how to adapt and how to work the system.
Speaker 1So well, I mean in this particular primary, where you have to choose to vote in one or the other and there's a competitive race in each. Who benefits in each scenario?
Speaker 4Well, I've been thinking of this and looking at it, and and I think that Leroy Brooks will be the benefactor of it on the mayoral side.
Speaker 4But Republican votes yeah, yeah, but I mean he will because of his peculiar bipartisan drag that he has, and it's interesting to me, you would think that, with Brooks having been in Columbus politics for as long as he has, that he would be like the insider candidate, he would be the one that people are tired of looking at it. But no, it's quite the opposite. The atmosphere out there feels like those who want to throw a Molotov cocktail in the system are going to use him to do it, as opposed to Stephen Jones.
Speaker 1You know, and I agree with you, I think that Leroy had you know, not to say that Stephen hasn't courted across the aisle at all, but Leroy, I do believe, has done a more effective job drawing Republican voters to his camp. You know, and I think that's going to be reflected in the primary results across all the wards. An equally interesting question is how the presence of the mayor's race affects how the Ward 6 council race goes, because, as you said, you would be tempted to vote in the mayor's primary if you lived in that ward, and I think that a lot of people are too. So I think this Ward 6 primary is going to have very low turnout and that probably benefits Spears solely from a name recognition standpoint. And I'm not saying that people don't know, miss Davis. What I'm saying is, when you take a rank and file voter who knows neither one of them personally, which one are they most likely to have heard of? And I think that's Jason.
Speaker 4I think that it's going to be very, very, very, very tight. And I think that let's say you're on the McCarty Davis team and you come in to vote for her and it's 1 pm and you notice that on the Republican sign in sheet you are number 19 on the list. I mean you're going to be making some phone calls.
Speaker 1You know, I think that the opportunity here, knowing that you're going to have lower turnout and knowing that name recognition may be an issue for you If I was Miss Davis, I'd rent a bus.
Speaker 4Well, it definitely benefits the ground game.
Candidate Jason Spears Interview
Speaker 1Yep. Yep. Jason Spears, ward 6 Republican candidate for council. Thanks for joining us today, and the very first question I want to ask you, jason, is Mayor's race, ward 6 council race. Which one are you voting in April 1st?
Speaker 5Ward 6. Oh okay, why is that? Well, it's a tough question, but one I feel I have to do my duty for sitting back and trying to support what the residents of Ward 6 hopefully want to vote for.
Speaker 1Well, I mean, it's kind of a jokey question to start off with, but on a serious note, I mean people who want to vote in that primary. They're going to have to choose between voting in the Republican primary between you and Ms Davis or voting in the mayor's race. How do you think that's going to affect? I mean, well, let's start with y'all's race. How's it going to affect y'all's race in your opinion?
Speaker 5Sure, I do believe it will have an impact on the race and the numbers and I certainly understand the dilemma that is set forth for people to make that decision. You know, I know in Ward 6, a lot of the residents I've talked to you know are kind of battling back and forth with it. But you know I understand that they also realize that in their ward they want to see some progress, they want to see some decisions made that will help you know a lot of different growth possibilities there and want to, you know, support a candidate that will help them do that.
Speaker 1Okay, and I want to say something here. We invited Ms Davis onto the podcast today to be with you. She graciously declined, responded, graciously declined. She had a work conflict and we had a short notice invitation to both of you yesterday. You were able to make it and she wasn't. So we hate that. We missed her, but at the same time she was very upfront with us and we appreciate that from her. Looking at your background, you're obviously financial advisor in town. You spent a decade on the school board. You're on the Columbus Redevelopment Authority board. You're making the jump to want to get on the council. Take me through that decision process and why you. You know why you qualify.
Speaker 5Sure, well, I appreciate that question because you know, as a 17-year resident of Ward 6, I know more than the. You know pulse reading of what the ward is like. You know I know the arteries that are getting clogged up and I feel very confident in my ability of understanding. You know what steps need to be taken. As you know, one city council person, sometimes you can get bogged down with the needs of other wards and different things and certainly I'm there to help serve the entire city. But you know we also have to look at where things are in Ward 6. You know we talk about the blight program, we talk about things that are going on in the city and I feel that I'm very well versed in those areas because I've been at the table with the CRA.
Speaker 5I see what's happening, you know, in the Burns Bottom area. I know the promise that we can see up Highway 45 and the developments that's happened. I understand the TIF agreements that the city currently has with the old University Mall where Dick's and Michael's are located. I also understand you know, those agreements that are in place with Columbus Place and the whole group Also understand you know those agreements that are in place with Columbus Place and the whole group, and I know that there's some things that we need to expedite from the city council level to get through those agreements so that the next project that comes along if it's Old Seacoast site, if it's other things on Highway 45, we're able to capitalize on it and certainly understanding that aspect of what the city needs to do will benefit the residents of Ward 6, but also the city as a whole.
Speaker 5I have been very optimistic in going around. I've run my race solely in my lane. I haven't gotten into other races. I stood on my record because I'm proud of it. It wasn't earned easily. There's a lot of battles at different boardrooms and tables and stuff, but I'm unafraid to stand along when necessary to point out things that need to be addressed and getting results that need to happen.
Speaker 4Speaking of things that need to be addressed, I want to pick your brain about the amphitheater. It's the big elephant in the room right now. Um, it's, it's the big elephant in the room right now, and the latest on that is this um plan that Mr Green is behind, and it's basically and Mr Jones yeah, mr Jones for sure. Uh, mr Jones is going to take credit for it regardless of what happens. But be that the case, the idea is to put city money into it and then some CVB money into it, and then beg the county for some money, which, by the way, I don't think there's a snowball's chance of the county putting money toward finishing the amphitheater. What say you? Should the CVB ante up on that?
Speaker 5Well, I do understand that it is a tourism promotion machine, if it comes into being. You know, when I say machine, I want to be very clear about what I mean is that you know it does create event opportunities and it will put people in hotels and it will bring dollars to the city. I believe that's part of their mission at the CVV. Now, with the overall plan of how it's coming together, I mean, I like to have things much more planned and prepared as you move forward in what it is that you're trying to accomplish.
Speaker 5I think the amphitheater, you know, with all the money that's been put into the state, we don't have any skin in the game. Now I'm much more mindful of where we stand financially in the city before I can say we need to take this and we need to expend that in our own dollars. Does that compromise us in the short term or the long term? I don't have all those answers there of the city finances and there is the current one that is underway that I think, once those questions are answered, I could be more specific in saying, yeah, we've got a million or two million that you should put into it, but at this particular point I believe things need to be self-sustaining in those special project type ideas.
Speaker 1Well, I want to back up to. You talked about Ward 6 and the needs for Ward 6. So I'm going to ask you sort of a sticky one here. Sure One, how do you think those needs are being met now? And I guess, to piggyback off of that, the incumbent in that ward isn't running. Would you have primaried her if she had decided to run? Would you have primaried her if she had decided to?
Speaker 5run. To answer your last question first. Yes, because I feel that you know, I've watched and observed and there's a lot of things that I feel have gone well and things that haven't necessarily been addressed. And so I took it upon myself, long before we even got to the end of the year, to even have a discussion with her about how my intentions were to run. And if she did choose to run that you know it wouldn't be a competition or anything against her, it's just I felt led. At this point there were some things that I wish I felt I was skilled enough and versed enough to address and that's why I would step forward as a candidate.
Speaker 1Skilled, more skilled than was being, is being done now. Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 5I feel like in the financial aspects that continue to come up continuously at every board meeting and a lot of the decisions that are either being moved forward with or not being addressed.
Speaker 1yes, Okay, what are some of the ones that you feel like should have gone differently in this term?
Speaker 5Well, we talk about blight, for example, and it is throughout the city in certain concentrations, certain area. I've walked the tallest hills it's a bit feel like mountains in Ward six to get to houses all over Ward six. I've, you know, walked across and even just the other day, when the storms blew through and we were fortunate that we didn't have the storms that hit, you know, grenada and other places. But flooding in drainage, you know, are a lot of different things that we've heard about with the ARPA funds and things. Well, I drove around and right after that, huge downpour happened in Ward 6, I drove around through the hospital, I drove around Canterbury, I drove around Williamsburg, I drove all over Sleepy Hollow, I drove everywhere North Haven Woods, because that's what I kept hearing people talk about flooding and drainage and things. Well, you get out and you go see it. What I kept hearing people talk about flooding and drainage and things Well, you get out and you go see it. There it is and I've got videos of it so that that way I'll know what's the problem. And I went back just the other day, before I went out house to house and spoke to some of those residents that stressed that I showed them. Hey, here's the video I have. They took me inside, showed me pictures that they have and I go back to. Is that my reason for doing this? Because I've seen those similar issues.
Speaker 5Not everyone has blight in their neighborhood. There are areas of focus in ward six. We might want to look, you know, really try to prevent from falling in that category. But really the drainage aspect is what we need dollars for paving certain areas, just small strips, not the whole street. That would make a profound difference in those areas.
Speaker 5Patchwork that has happened in the wards, of concrete that's now elevated, that caused it to pull up by the street. So I think it's just a matter of being in tune with what's going on. That's why I said I feel like I know the arteries that are clogging more than just the pulse of what's happening in Ward 6. And that's why I was optimistic and really kind of gung-ho about going after and serving in Ward 6 is because I am in those areas all the time and I understand, you know what needs to be done and I feel like that, from a financing side of it, we can't tax our way into the prosperity that we all want. We've got to find ways to generate revenue that is based upon how things are happening, you know, putting people in hotel rooms or people spending money at this store, that store.
Speaker 4Well, the sad thing about it is the things that you speak of, especially the drainage and the infrastructure and this, and that they're not sexy things to talk about because they cost a lot of money. They're not sensational, they are, to a certain extent boring. They're not sensational, they are to a certain extent boring.
Speaker 5And yet these are the very things that are the path to financial prosperity for our town, which leads to this and that and the other. It really is. I mean, if you go and if you wanted to step out of Columbus which I do frequently with my work and you look at some of the most well, you would think well put together, well run communities. Yes, you see the flowers, yes, you see the nice trees, the big houses, but you see curb and gutter. You see drains that aren't, that aren't blocked. You see patchwork. When somebody comes, like you know, for utility, and cuts up a part of the street, it doesn't sit there for six months unattended. Those are not failures of those people that are doing it. It's failures of our leadership, in our respect to go out in my ward and say I need you to come back and fix this, please, and not wait six months before that small little insert becomes a big pothole.
Speaker 4I'm going to put on a hard hat and go out there and point at what's going on. Yeah, I'm sorry, I threw you off track. What were we talking?
Speaker 1about.
Speaker 4We're listening to Between the Headlines with Zach and David. Catch us up, man.
Speaker 1All right. So changing gears a little bit, sure, you see what's going on with the council right now. You see what's going on with the council right now. You see what's going on with the administration right now. The person sitting in that seat the Ward 6 seat right now Jacqueline DiCicco. She and Rusty Green in Ward 3 are constantly on the losing end of 4-2 votes. Just Tuesday, councilwoman DeCicco asked Vice Mayor Mickens a question about an expense. He's going on a trip with Mr Irby to Atlanta at some point in the spring. Originally Mr Irby was going to go by himself and now Mickens is going. Councilwoman DiCicco asked about that. He didn't respond and when the mayor pressed him, do you want to respond to that? He just said no, so disregarded her question entirely. So when you look at that environment and you're looking at going into that environment, how does your presence on the council, in your opinion, change the dynamic of that four to split and how does it change the dynamic of things like what transpired Tuesday that I just told you about?
Speaker 5Sure, well, you know, what it comes down to, in my opinion, is that you can't fault individuals. You know and I'm not speaking to one specific person but you cannot fault individuals for things they don't necessarily understand as well. I saw it on the school board a lot of times, because I am well versed, and that's where I kind of stake my flag down is the financial side. I understand it well. It's things that excite me. You see, when I talk about it, my eyes light up in different things. So I'm never going to go in with the mindset of you've just got to do it my way because I understand it better. I've always taken more of a teacher approach to it and I think that's what helped on the school board years ago when there were clashes and there were misunderstandings and there were situations that came up to where you know I was on, you know the to vote.
Speaker 1You know things that went on for quite some time.
Speaker 5It did, but the whole point is that it did not deter the work that had to be done. It did not stop us from really trying to make the difference, because I knew in at the core of the situation. People have different ways of doing things, but they all want the same outcome. They all want things to be better and I'm not going to sit there and try to point a finger and say you're doing it wrong and you're doing it your way and that's causing problems.
Speaker 5My resolution, conflict resolution matter is being prepared, giving people every detail possible so that they're able to discern it in their own way and ask questions, and in doing that, that's exactly what really happened on the school board. People didn't necessarily like Jason Spears more, they were just willing to give me the benefit of the doubt at the information, the task at hand, the jobs we had to do were actually getting done, not because I was trying to take credit for it, but because we actually had, you know, granular, granular information that they were able to take and put their own polish to and come out with a product we were all happy with, that we could all see progress with. And that's the biggest thing for me is that if you go in it with just wanting to have your stamp on it that it's yours, you're always going to come up on the short end of the vote.
Speaker 4I've got one last question from my end, from a business standpoint, you know, looking back at the planning of things for the city. What are we going to do about the island's most exciting motel attraction, the Plaza Motel, right there next to the amphitheater? I know I talk about that thing too much, but good grief that fellow's sitting on that thing and he's like, yeah, I'll sell it to the city for three million dollars and it needs to be pushed over. What can be done? Nothing.
Speaker 5Well, you know, when you, when you look at that, I mean it's, you know what is it in real estate, location, location, location, and you know, I think it goes back to the drawing board of when things are put together in the city plans, of how we're going to develop things. We have to have that comprehensive plan of this is the core circle, this is the next deviation circle, tier circle and how it branches out from there to understand where those complications may come in in the future.
Speaker 5Now, I mean as far as saying what's going on, what we should do, I mean I look down at the project at Burns Bottom. I mean there were 70 plus properties there and some of those were tied up with multiple even before I was, you know.
Speaker 4I put on in 2022 with airship.
Speaker 5You know complications and things. Well, now, all these years later, you know all the property has been acquired, everything's starting to move forward and you kind of get into the red tape of you've got federal dollars, you've got 106, you've got we had to notify you know seven Indian nations of what we're doing there and you don't see all of that a lot of times. So, to go back over to what you're talking about, it's hard to understand what we should do at that hotel if we haven't finished the first core circle, build out of what we're doing. And that's what's right here. It may be a different dialogue. There may be something that say, hey, somebody else comes in, builds and buys the hotel and does something with it.
Speaker 5You know the city shouldn't necessarily have to take on all these private properties to then turn them into those type of projects. They should want that public-private relationship. That's what garners extra sales tax and extra growth on the tax base and different things. I mean, one of the things I have noticed in my studies leading up to what I'm talking to you about and other things that I've been trying to be prepared when I talk to residents of Ward 6 is the fact the city owns a lot of property it shouldn't own. I mean, there are lots in Ward 6 that they've owned since 1997 that people don't even know how they got, and so I think that we need to look at those aspects of how we build out the city.
Speaker 4Can we sell them?
Speaker 5I don't see why not. They're in residential neighborhoods and different things over in Ward 6. And I think they've been forgotten about because nobody remembers how they ended up with them. It wasn't just a tax sale. It's maybe something somebody left to the city. But I just go back to the point is that we've got to get into a more simpler form of what our planning needs to be, and the simpler form means that we can't get caught up in all of the commotion of this problem with the amphitheater, this problem with drainage and this problem over here with Greenfield.
Speaker 5Those are big, tight issues that we need to address. But we have a lot of housekeeping, you know, laundry to fold, floors, to sweep things. That we've got to do as a city council and, as you know, whoever the mayor is, to be able to actually be effective in those type of projects and that's just my role is that when I come in, I want to start with the broom in the hand to kind of sweep the floors a little bit and, you know, get the laundry baskets, after they're folded, put away. Because if we get our financial house in order at city hall, uh, or the municipal complex, wherever you want to reference it being. If we that, then we're going to be able to capitalize on more opportunities, and this discussion seems a lot different in five years.
Speaker 1You mentioned Burns Bottom and you're on the Columbus Redevelopment Authority Board. Where is that project, what is going on with the interested developer and why doesn't the public know more about the process of the progress at this point?
Speaker 5Sure, All right. So, in full disclosure, there are MDAs in place, so there's limited aspects of certain parts that I can't discuss.
Speaker 1Y'all had to sign non-disclosure agreements, correct Okay.
Speaker 5Just because of different parts of it, can say is that it's all this public and I mean you can get that from you know what's all been taking place in our meetings is that you know we're to a point now to where we have acquired all the properties and the only reason you don't see more dirt turning or trees coming down and things like that other than just kind of trying to keep it clean and mowed and all those things, is because we have to go through certain processes of wetland mitigation. You look up there like where's the wetlands at? They're there, we've been notified. So we have to work through that. Also, you have to work through other permitting issues that you have to go because the north end of the property is more in the floodplain than the south end. It's all what happens in a development.
Speaker 1Is that developer still at the table?
Speaker 5No, Well, I mean, yes, we have people that are interested that are still at the table and it just goes back to we as a, as a board, have to.
Speaker 1Is the developer that we that? That came to the table last year. Are they still there?
Speaker 5Well as as, as parts of my non-disclosure, I can't get into those details, but what I? What I can say is that you know, we are still meeting our timelines to further that development forward. And here's the one thing that it's really easy to see dirt turn and oh, they're doing something. But it goes back to what I stressed earlier. I serve a great board of people and they're business, business minded, they're thinkers, they're intentional in their actions and this is kind of the way I model myself, which is why we work so well together. And they're very measured, and I think that style of planning is what has to happen as we go forward in the city level, because the fact is that we have checked the box, we've actually gone beyond what is required to do even more, so that if later it comes back to say, oh well, why didn't you do this? We can say we did.
Speaker 5We don't want to get caught in some little snag in between of a technicality and that's why it looks slower than it should be. But this particular project is so transformative, generational in its impact for the city of Columbus that you want to be that way. You want to have well-intentioned effort that is centered around the fact that you're going to make sure that it comes out and is done properly. And the funding from the feds, the funding from the state, the local funding all of that people can look back on and say you know what? That's exactly the way it needed to happen. And when we go, or the CRA, whoever it is, go back to the table the next time. People don't doubt it's going to happen.
Speaker 5They know they see you did it the right the first time and it leads you to the confidence to do it right the second time.
Speaker 1One of the perspectives on you in the public square and your candidacy now in Ward 6 is that you actually you had a good and close relationship even with the Robert Smith administration and your relationship with this administration is not so much. One is that fair? And two, how would you assess your relationships with those two administrations?
Speaker 5Sure. Well, you know, here's the big thing about it. I realize that for progress to happen you have to work with everybody. You have to be willing to be open minded to everyone's ideas, even if you feel like yours is more well thought out and and that you're well intentioned. Some people don't see it that way and you know you have to understand them more than you understand yourself. And so I've been willing to work and have worked with people throughout the city, board of supervisors, everybody.
Speaker 5Because the fact is I go back to my core belief is that everybody in their positions wants to see a better Columbus get better. I mean, that's the core of it In my mind it is. If I take away that someone isn't in that mindset, well, I tend to distance myself because they have ulterior motives and I don't get into that. That's not how I operate. But what I will say is that, yes, I did work well with Robert and his administration. I've worked well with a lot of the city council. Now Some are more willing to listen and do things.
Speaker 5I can't say one person over another. I'm not pointing fingers at one person or another, but I can just say is that you know when I try to lend my expertise or lend my thoughts or different things like that. It's not because I'm trying to get in somewhere, it's just because, like when I was on the school board, and I have to go to sit down with somebody and say, hey, this is how they're going to pay off the debt, this is the fund balances, this is how the taxation works, and stuff like that. Either they meet it with you know what Okay, I understand it. Can you explain it more? Or they meet with I already know that.
Speaker 1Well, okay. So how was that met by this administration?
Speaker 5I think it'd be best if you ask them. Ok so, all right. So is it fair to say that you were? Is it fair to say that you community, especially the leaders, because the financial aspects is what really is the oil running or the gasoline running the car? You've got to know what the numbers are like. You've got to understand taxation. You've got to understand a lot of the things that allow you to do the things you do. And if you, if you, if I go, sit down with Greg Andrews often, because he's the man who has the numbers and and, and I ask him pointed questions to understand things.
Speaker 5The CRA asked me to compile a report of things about when we were working for the federal dollars and state dollars, to have a meeting and say present, all of this Spent weeks. I have a job that supports my family. None of the things that I do outside of you know, over here at 114, is supporting what I do other than there. And so when you go and you put this together and you're not steering a narrative, you're just giving facts. You're trying to help people understand things from a basic level so that you can build from it. You shouldn't be just shut down that. I know that, because the thing about it is if you, if you understand those things, why are you doing things differently?
Speaker 5Because, it doesn't it to me and I feel passionate about it because I know if your household is not in order, it's just that, like you have problems that become crisis and they don't have to be.
Speaker 5They don't have to rise to that level. So when I talk to people who are smarter than me, who have more information than me, and then I take what skill sets I have and compile it into something that we can work with, and everybody around me that's sitting at the table making the decisions based off that information feels it sound and we should be able to work forward with it. To be pushed back, say, I know this. It's disheartening because it's like, why, like, we have to make sure that we don't take that mindset. We have to make sure that we don't take that mindset. I am as committed to a person who lives on the borderline of the northern part of Ward 6 as I am to the eastern, the western and the southern tip. It doesn't matter what neighborhood, it doesn't matter what street, it doesn't matter whether you work in Columbus or you travel to Starkville or you travel somewhere else. My whole thing is that I do the diligence for everybody involved.
Speaker 1Okay.
Speaker 5And I think that when you start looking at those individuals who want to come out and say I'm doing it for the right reason, we'll define right reason now. Is it your right reason? Is it their right reason? Is it their right?
Speaker 1reason Okay.
Speaker 5Because I believe that if you want a seat at the table and you want to do things right, there's only one way to do it, and it's with facts. It's not opinions, it's not judgments, it's not. I don't want to do it because of this person, that person. It's rooted in the facts. Whether you like the facts or not, they are what they are.
Speaker 4And numbers.
Speaker 1Well, to that point does the city need a forensic audit, and why or why not?
Speaker 5OK, so that seems to be the billion dollar question, right? You know I trust in the auditors who have been looking through the books you have to look at. Right now. We have, through 2024 last year, the 2020 and the 2021 audit for the city completed. Miss Holly, you know she works diligently. I think she does a great job in her role of what she does. Right now. I believe they're working on 2022 and possibly getting into 2023.
Speaker 5Right now, I believe they're working on 2022 and possibly getting into 2023. People forget that we had a person who did the crime that was sent to prison and then, of course, I think, passed away in prison. If I'm not mistaken. Ok, and then there was an individual who came behind him, a lady Delia. Vaughn, yeah, it was there for a short period of time and then we had about six months to where you had, you know, some people who were plugging in and trying to help do things, interims and different volunteers.
Speaker 5Right, but no one there shoveling the coal in the engine, no one there steering the train down the track, and so things got very disorganized and chaotic, and so that's why, right now, we don't have the 2022 audit. It's because you've got this abyss of nobody really was there getting it done. Now you can point fingers and you can cast blame, but it's still. The fact is that that was the reality for that year, and until we get that whole patched up and accounted for, you can't really say what the next step is going to look like. When you stress we need a forensic audit and different things, what are you asking for? Are you just asking for the guillotine to drop and the heads to roll, or are you looking at it? For we really need to know what the numbers are so we know if we have a million dollars to put in the amphitheater.
Speaker 4Maybe both Okay, define know what the numbers are.
Speaker 5So we know if we have a million dollars to put in the amphitheater, maybe both okay define what you mean, maybe both.
Speaker 4If there's bad actors, let the heads roll and also get the finances in order so that we'll be eligible for these grants that we so badly need well, we're eligible for the.
Speaker 5We wouldn't be eligible for the grants because we don't have the 22 and the 23.
Speaker 1that's the annual audit's the annual audit, the annual audit's being current.
Speaker 5Now here's the thing you know, like Shad White, don't like Shad White, I think he's a very thorough person at his job and when things were uncovered and things were sent down to his office to be investigated, they came in and, in my opinion being the thoroughness that I have seen him put out there on different things, he went through and he did what he did and he also nobody has anyone asked what our auditors that are doing, what they have already done, what they have gone through. I think that's another part of it. So to sit here and say I'm opposed to a forensic audit or I'm in support of it.
Speaker 5I think we need to let all the work be done and get current and then see if there's anything as far as missteps or things, because they will come to light.
Speaker 1All right. Last question I have for you. It's on a lighthearted note, although it may open up an old wound a little bit. Okay, so you're at exchange. Not too long ago you make a joke. I know it's a joke, but I'm razzing you about it. You said that you know if you write numbers down, the only person that could be sure is Moses coming down off the mountain. Some years ago, a former superintendent, who will remain anonymous here after being terminated by the board, specifically referred to you as the Incredible Hulk. So, between Moses and the Incredible Hulk, who are you really, jason?
Speaker 5Well, I'm a dad, I'm a husband, I'm a financial advisor who serves his clients as well as I possibly can. I've served this community for going on 20 years now. I love Columbus. I hear all the negative things about it, but that doesn't deter me from getting out there and plugging in where I can. You know when you ask who. Who am I? You know I I'm kind of an introvert. That's probably why I enjoy numbers so much. They don't ask a lot of questions. They are what they are and I have to do my calculations to see where they total up to. But but I would just say is that you know my heart is always in the right place in everything that I do.
Speaker 5I don't try to do it for the credit While sometimes I do get credit, sometimes I get blame. I do. I stick with the things that I know can be verified. I stick with the things that are essential to the question and not fodder for the discussion. And that's my biggest thing is I think that if we stop looking at Lowndes County as being our enemy of Columbus and we start realizing who wants that to continue to happen, it's across the county line, over in Octopahaw County and Starkville. I'm not blaming anybody why we need to do better in our financial way of doing things if we want to do better on how leadership happens at City Hall. We've got to decide is that we've got to be united ourselves because North Port Tuscaloosa are taking residents, they're taking businesses. Tupelo-lee County wants to see this continue to happen.
Speaker 5I'm not anti-reaching out, because I've got a lot of partnerships that I work with people on all throughout and different things. I'm not saying that they're doing things bad, but we're allowing our successes to fleet away from us because the fact is that we're unwilling to just address right here in the household and say you know, in my household I raised three boys. They love each other unconditionally, but sometimes there's a lot of pain involved because there's bruises involved. Okay, especially with boys, with boys, that's right, but the biggest thing about that is that they realize that nobody else comes to them and talks about this other brother. All right, okay, we have to be willing to put past issues behind us and not forget them, not forget that bruise that's on our arm or leg or whatever.
Speaker 5But we have to be willing to say you know what? Let's just try a little bit more discussion. Let's try to get the sheriff's department, let's try to get the police department, let's try to get Metro Narcotics talking a little bit more, training a little bit more together. Let's try to unify what the city government, the county government is doing and you know, and I've said this before I said it's the Kiwanis Club. You know Columbus needs to quit asking and begging the county for a lot of things. We need to put our own boots on and stand up, like we need to get our own house in order. That gives them the confidence to want to come to the table for the next TIF agreement or for the next big project that benefits the county the county, the city and the CVB and everything.
Speaker 4Okay, well, Jason, it has been a pleasure to have you on the show today and I will be seeing you Monday as the Republican Party of Lowndes County will be live streaming a forum for both of the Republican candidates of Ward 6. That'll be a lot of fun.
Speaker 4Looking forward to it Absolutely, and I want to thank our listeners for joining in. Please help talk this, show up, subscribe, rate and share, and I hope you'll also join the conversation. Tips at cdispatchcom. Again, that is tips at cdispatchcom. Also follow me on Facebook or X at the Chisholm 00. You've been listening to Between the Headlines, with Zach and David signing off from Catfish Alley Studios in historic downtown Columbus. Your host has been the gentle giant, mr Zach Clare, who is also the managing editor of the Commercial Dispatch, and I am David Chisholm. Until next time, keep it friendly, but absolutely keep it real no-transcript.
