A Name Emerges for MUW President PLUS We Interview the New Fire Chief

A leadership decision can look “done” before it officially begins, and that’s where we start. We break down the Mississippi University for Women president search, including what we heard from the public listening sessions and why the insider versus outsider question matters for MUW’s identity. We talk about the excitement around a well-connected MUW alum and seasoned public figure.

From higher education politics to local government accountability, the conversation shifts to Columbus City Hall and the escalating dispute involving the city’s public information officer role. 

Then we welcome our guest, Charles Yarborough, the new Columbus Fire Department fire chief. He tells us why he came out of retirement, why he says a fire chief has to be a “politician” and a firefighter, and what he’s changing right away. As bonus content, we also talk with Betty Bryan about Columbus’ historic Pilgrimage and the work of telling a more inclusive story that includes African American history alongside the architecture.

Transcript

Cold Open And Today’s Headlines

SPEAKER_01 0:01

I don't know what has come up with today to talk about. I'm not asking you to hide anything. You know, no, put it out there. Let the people see it.

SPEAKER_03 0:10

I've never not worked in a hospital working department.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

You can't argue with anybody when they're putting facts in your face. Zach, that's a hard question. I have no answer for it. From the opinion page of the commercial dispatch. This is between the headlines.

MUW President Search And Fair Process

SPEAKER_05 0:29

The friendly city once again has a good little scuffle this time between the mayor, the COO, and this time the PIO Public Information Officer. We've got details on that today. Also in the studio, our guest, Mr. Charles Yarborough, the new fire chief. And do we want an insider or an outsider for MUW's presidency? The name has arisen Sally Birchfield Dodie, and we have thoughts, but first. Retirement looks different for everyone, so your plan should be built around you. For over 40 years, Financial Concepts has helped people create retirement strategies that fit their lives. Our team in Columbus takes the time to understand your goals and build a plan that works for you. Wherever you are in your journey, we're ready to help. We plan retirement. Financial Concepts is a registered investment advisor. This episode of Between the Headlines is brought to you by Bank First, a bank headquartered right here in Columbus, Mississippi. That means your banking decisions aren't made hundreds of miles away by someone who doesn't know you. They're made here locally by bankers who know your name and care about the community. At Bank First, we're more than bankers. We're your neighbors. Whether we're cheering in the stands, catching up at a local pancake breakfast, or celebrating milestones across our community, we're part of the moments that matter most. Stop by your local Bank First branch or visit BankFirstFS.com to learn more. Bank First is a member FDIC and Equal Housing lender, Bank NMLS 454063. It is time for Columbus's favorite tradition. Join us Saturday, May 2nd from 9 to 5 for the 30th annual Market Street Festival in downtown Columbus. Enjoy over 200 arts, crafts, and food vendors. Enjoy fun activities for the kids, and catch live music on two stages all day long. Fun, food, friends, and festivities. Celebrate 30 years of fun at the award-winning Market Street Festival May 2nd in downtown Columbus. We'll see you in the streets. Welcome to Catfish Alley Studio here in historic downtown Columbus. My name's Dave Chisholm. Across from me here is Mr. Zach Player, managing editor of the Dispatch, who is our host today. And the top headline on our agenda is the search, which has just begun for a president for Mississippi.

SPEAKER_06 2:53

It may already be over.

SPEAKER_05 2:54

And may already be over, and that is the question at hand. To give you a little background, there was a meeting the other day, and it was a public uh input style meeting. Tell us about that meeting, Zach.

SPEAKER_06 3:08

Well, they had they had two listening sessions uh at the W for just to get some public input of what they were looking for for a replacement for uh Nora Miller uh as president. And she's retiring uh in June or at the end of June. And um the first one uh was more of a debate on whether they wanted to have somebody with D W ties or whether they wanted to have an objective uh person with with not those ties that can come in and look at the universe fresh.

SPEAKER_05 3:41

Someone who's a a true blue, a homegrown kind of person, or someone who would be a nationwide outsider to bring in fresh ideas and fresh oomph.

SPEAKER_06 3:51

So that's how the first listening session went. The second listening session was um uh uh a couple of folks going up there and saying uh uh uh stop the music, let's just hire uh this Sally Dirt Birchfield Doty uh person right now. And so there and there seems to be, frankly, a consensus from our legislative delegation on, yeah, that'd be a great idea. So, you know, Senator Younger and Representative McLean going, yeah, I agree with that.

SPEAKER_05 4:23

All of a dead gum sudden, we have essentially a nomination from the floor.

SPEAKER_06 4:30

Well, right, all of the sudden and very strong quotation.

SPEAKER_05 4:34

Big fat quotey fingers. Yeah. All right. Um as the old folks at church would say, we've never done it that way, all right. My understanding is that institutions for higher learning uh have it in their bylaws that there has to be an advertisement put out and there has to be a period of time, and there's a process. Right. Um so is this an overt attempt to subvert that process, or is it just this idea floating around?

SPEAKER_06 5:02

Um well, I guess that depends on who you talk to. Uh we've talked to, or we've had a reporter talk to uh uh Birchfield Dodie uh already. And she seems to be, I mean, she's telling us, people have come to me and said you should do this. Um I was initially resistant, but now I'm thinking, you know, yes, I want this. I have the skills for the job, I'm pushing to get this job, and she has no problem saying that publicly before the advertisement process has even really begun. And then you've got legislators who are happy to say, yeah, it should be her before the advertisement process has actually begun. And so I'm gonna say two things about that. They may absolutely be right. Um she may be the pick, she may be the one, and and and there have they uh all signs point to this is a I mean, this is an alumna who's very well connected, former state senator, uh uh somebody who uh has been appointed uh to the to lead broadband efforts in the state by the governor. Um so this is this is she's she's nobody's dummy, and I don't think she's gonna shrink in a room. I don't think that she's going to have problems with the uh idea of no, I'm advocating for this university all the way down to the bottom. And she was very vocal during the uh MSMS uh issue where they were talking about relocating uh that school over to Starville. She was very vocal in opposition to that. So I mean, she's not afraid of controversy, she's not afraid, and she's done a lot of very important work and has very important networks that could be very helpful to that school. So on paper, on the yeah, on paper, fine, but on the other hand, you've got a process, it's in your bylaws, that process ought to be fair, and the other people applying for that job ought to have a fair shake in that process.

SPEAKER_05 7:16

So let's get to that. That's the muddy water, and that's the central question to what we want to talk about today. So let's look at Ms. Birchfield Doting, all right. Um, I see in the resume uh a lawyer, I see a judge, I see a politician, and then I look at MUW and I see an institute that is based on the identity of liberal arts. And so I can't help but wonder, Zach, is this a push potentially to push a square peg into a round hole? I'm not saying it is, but what I am saying is you look at what that school represents, all right? One of the finest education programs in the country, one of the finest nursing programs in the country. If they advertised for a welding program, I would not recommend that program, right? And so we've got different schools around here that have their own identity, and here we've got someone who has a background in a different style of thing. And so to your point, that leads me to say, yeah, we should probably really look at the process before we get the cart before the horse.

SPEAKER_06 8:35

What say you? I mean just on principle, I agree with the last thing that you said. Uh don't get your cart before the horse. The process ought to be the process, and it ought to be honest and legitimate, and the fix should not be in. However, um, I don't think that that precludes her being the pick after that process is done well and right and correct. Um I think that I mean I honestly I didn't graduate from the W, but I would I would imagine that somebody with um W ties is not as square of a peg as you would as you would think.

SPEAKER_05 9:17

Uh this is somebody who knows Maybe I'm just saying that because she's a Republican.

SPEAKER_06 9:23

This is somebody that is connected with that school. So this is somebody that is going to take uh that connection seriously. This is somebody who is well connected all over the state and is well networked all over the state and is well respected in most corners, I would imagine. So I can't imagine that those things would be harmful to the W. Now, granted, I've never met this lady in person, so uh, you know, I'm just looking at a piece of paper and going off of what you know what I know that she has said to us on the record.

SPEAKER_05 10:00

Uh I you know, well, I mean, just looking at it, it uh it looks like on paper this is somebody who would absolutely get her done. Oh, yeah. And on the positive, I think she would be vocal, and I think that uh frankly, with her experience in the legislature, she would not be afraid to embarrass politicians when they start to monkey with things in a manner that should not be monkeyed with. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_06 10:27

This is not somebody that's gonna get uh caught behind the eight ball when the politics start moving against the W. This is somebody that's gonna be out front on the steps going, you know, come on. I would imagine, just based on you know what little I do know and what and and what I read about her. But that said, I still think that there is a and let me ask you this, David, this insider or outsider question I think is relevant. Um does how much of a fair hearing should the idea of bringing an outsider into the W to look at it with fresh eyes, like maybe get their face away from the piece of paper a little bit so they could so it's not just right in their face so they can't see. What what say you on that?

SPEAKER_05 11:24

I'm with my man Tyler Wheat on this. We need to do a nationwide search, absolutely, and um I think it would be okay if if we're worried about it taking too long, maybe appoint Miss Birchfield Doty as the interim and give her the same opportunity that we give anyone else that applies for this job. If you're asking me, that's my take on it, because uh you you look at MUW, we have we have got to keep the the pedal down and we've got to keep the momentum going. I think that Nora Miller has done an outstanding job of keeping that institution solvent. And so the the numbers are good, but I want to keep the attendance good and I want to keep the enthusiasm and energy good for the campus and for the city. But I don't want someone that's gonna shut down the theater department or the music department because they're uh uh overly business oriented for a school that's uh they have a business program. I don't mean it condescendingly, but I want someone who truly does understand the identity of that school.

SPEAKER_06 12:31

Right. And you know, and I'll I'll I'll say this on Nora. Uh a lot was said about some of her decision making regarding the name change. A lot was said about, you know, how quickly she came to the front of the battlefield for MSMS and and how all of that went. But the scoreboard don't lie. When the smoke cleared, the W is not part of Mississippi State, and neither is Mississippi School for Mathematics and Science. So take that for what you will.

City PIO Contract Fight Explained

SPEAKER_05 13:05

Well, I mean, it it's an excellent analogy. I mean, she won the battle, but it it's like a cartoon type image where there's a lot of smoke and bruising to be um reckoned with after the fact. But you are correct. The W's there, MSMS is there, and they are rocking and rolling. So we wish well to whoever gets this position. All right. That's that. We'll take a break and come back. But first. Since 1935, Lowndes Farm Supply has supported the Greater Columbus Trade Area with products and knowledge for the farm, ranch, and garden markets, along with lawn, hunting supplies, outdoor clothing, and boots. Go check them out at 69 Co-op Road in Columbus. Zach, if we have a theme for the show today, that theme is very clearly you don't get to pick your own boss. I'm seeing a lot of that kind of stuff here. And um in particular, our public information officer, who is a contractor, not an employee, Miss Shawanda Jones, is um in a tight spot as it appears. She is on contract getting paid twenty-four thousand dollars a year while the city is actively advertising to replace her to the tune of fifty-five thousand dollars a year. Is that right?

SPEAKER_06 14:27

Right.

SPEAKER_05 14:28

And why in the world would that not G-Hall? What in the world could go wrong with that type of setup?

SPEAKER_06 14:34

Well, and I mean, and I think some context is needed here because let's go to the most recent part of this. The City Council is considering terminating that contract on Tuesday. And it'd be four months early.

SPEAKER_05 14:50

And um I think that and when you say terminate that contract, according to Jeff Turnage, they've got to do that publicly since she's not an employee.

SPEAKER_06 15:00

Right. Unless she's threatening to sue them and then they can go into executive session. And that is something that she's said that she hasn't ruled out. Look, the problem as she presents it and the problem the things that they agree on that the problem is. We're talking about Stephen Jones, the mayor, and Shawanda Jones, the public information officer on contract. Uh the things that they agree on, the facts that they agree on, rather, are that um that relationship soured over time because there was disagreement on who she should be reporting to and what she should be doing. All parties agree that that is the rub and that it deteriorated to the point to where they both you know got into a heated argument on Monday wherein she said, Well, you're gonna have to fire me, and Stephen said, Okay, fine, I will.

SPEAKER_05 15:55

That's right. I'm not resigning, you gotta fire me. So let me ask you this. Um so Stephen Jones was saying you report both to me and to the COO Jamie Garrett. Is that what Stephen Jones was saying?

SPEAKER_06 16:08

Uh yeah. Which sounds ambiguous to me. Well, I mean, she her direct report was Jamie Garrett, the COO, who reports to Stephen. Okay. So, I mean, there's that. Um, but I think that she wanted to report directly to Stephen without having to go through Jamie, and Stephen and Jamie were both telling her, well, that's not how this is gonna work. And that was one of the reasons that this thing metastasized into what it became.

SPEAKER_05 16:40

One more layer. Let me ask you this. Who uh changed the Facebook password uh so that uh which who was it that wasn't able to get on there?

SPEAKER_06 16:53

Shawanda says that she was denied access to the Facebook and the social media and that uh Jamie took over that part of the operation. I don't know any of that. That's just what she said. It just sounds very messy. And to the point that I was trying to make a while ago, as far as the council goes right now, I don't think they have any other choice. They they've got it the this relationship has deteriorated to the point to where it is no longer tenable. They're gonna have to, whether they whether they pay out her contract and send her on her way, whether they don't pay it out, that's maybe what they can argue about. But I don't think that the council should put the mayor and the COO in a position to where uh they're having to work with a contractor that will not work with them because that relationship is has soured. Uh let me back up though, because the um there's some important context here that where Shawanda absolutely has a point. When she was brought on, she was brought on five weeks before the new fiscal year. Brought on in August, the end of August, and then she was brought on as a contractor, and it was absolutely the understanding of everyone in that room. The media covering it, Shawanda who was saying that was her understanding, the mayor who was uh promoting this understanding, and the council members who assented to this understanding or consented to this understanding. Um she was gonna work five weeks on contract and then she was going to roll over to be that fifty-five thousand dollar full-time person. Never happened. And I don't think that she was that it was made very clear to her, certainly not made clear to her as October rolled around that that wasn't in the cards or that wasn't, or we're not there yet, or anything like that. I don't think that she got the kind of communication there that she needed, in my opinion. Um because we've got timelines of when they had those conversations and we're talking about November and December. Well, if it's November, then she's working another month with uncertainty. She moved here from, you know, New Orleans, where she had a pretty good job in TV, so she could come and get that job a full-time PIO. Well, then the ball the goalpost starts moving on her as to what her actual job is and how she's supposed to uh liaise between the public and the administration. First it was wide open, then it was, well, uh, if they call you, they've got to call you, and then you've got to do this and do that. And so the access to different parts as it was evolving, she was having to go and say, one time, okay, this is what we're gonna do. And then, and I'm I I experienced firsthand, I know this is true because I saw it happen. She would come up and say, Okay, here's how we're gonna do things per our policies, you know, per the mayor, this is how we're gonna this is how we're gonna deal with communications out of the administration. All right, then two weeks later, she was having to say, Well, it's actually different now. And then two weeks later, she's well, it's actually different, even more different now. And to her credit, she never did gaslight us. She always said, I know that this is different than what I told you before, but we're doing this now. And it just kept changing and it was very uncertain for her, and that was frustrating for her, understandably so. How much of that was just the growing pains of trying to establish your uh offense and defense in your system as a new mayor under the first year? I think that there's some grace to be given there, but at the same time, you're putting this lady out front with a new s with a with a new handbook every two weeks. And it it frustrated her, and it frustrated the members of the media, and it frustrated members of the public. And that's valid.

SPEAKER_05 21:11

And that frustration is rising as this thing drags on and on. I I gotta tell you, um it just feels like somebody's wanting to control her, but cannot control her. That's just a feeling. Well, okay, opinions are those of the speaker. And in addition to that, when there's ambiguity and chaos, it makes the city look bad. I I boil it down to this, and and you can disagree with me on it, but Zach, I'm just not seeing the need for a public information officer if you remove the dead gum gag order from the heads of departments. Let people speak their mind, let people speak freely. And if if you're the mayor and you have a problem with what those department heads say, uh well, get with them, fire them if you think you can, but that's the way transparency works.

SPEAKER_06 22:12

Or fire them if you think you can. Work with them and try to figure out if you can resolve the issue as a leader. And yes. And and I want to be I want to be fair to Stephen here because and I I'm gonna tell you every time we talk about Stephen Jones on this podcast since he's been elected mayor, he really is in his mind and in his heart, in my opinion, trying to do this in a way where it is uh in his mind as transparent as it can be without being embarrassing to the city. And I don't and I think that he is starting to embrace more and more, you know, that it is what it is part of this. Because I hadn't had any problems getting access to him, I hadn't had any problems getting access to him answering questions, and frankly, uh with limited exceptions, I haven't really had any problems, neither have any of our reporters, of getting access to, you know, department heads to speak, you know. Sometimes there's some weirdness about how freely they can speak, but uh anytime that they check on it, they're like, speak freely. Uh but I don't think that he is afraid of them speaking freely. I think he is afraid of them embarrassing the city or him finding out something in the paper or on WCBI that he didn't know, and now suddenly he's accountable for answering for that and he didn't see it coming because he was blindsided. And I understand why he feels that way, but the public square is a public square and it just happens sometimes, right? Man, I just love hearing things straight from the horse's mouth, and then when different horses speak different things, then you get nuance and you have to wonder why they are saying something different. Exactly.

New Fire Chief On Leadership

SPEAKER_05 23:58

And it makes the reading of the paper so fascinating. Yeah, well, that's what we try to do. We welcome now into Catfish Alley Studio, Mr. Charles Yarborough, who as of Monday is our new fire chief. Welcome into the studio today, sir. Thank you. I'm glad to be here. Okay. My first question for you is do you consider yourself a firefighter or a politician? Which would be your primary deal? Because you had that thing going against Mayor Spruel, right?

SPEAKER_03 24:26

I did. Uh I think I'm both. Uh I don't think you can be a fire chief without being a politician, to be honest with you. Uh I think it's political, it's gonna be political. Well, he's honest, I'll tell you that. Yeah, I I'm always by heart gonna be a firefighter. I love the job. Uh I still can do the job. I mean, it's just something about that position. Uh, even being fire chief, I I still like the hands-on part of it. Uh, the political part, uh I did that because I felt like we needed to change. So instead of me sitting back complaining about it, let me go out and see if I can do it, make a change. Well, now have you moved over here to Columbus? I have not moved yet, but at some point I will move over here.

SPEAKER_06 25:05

Okay. Yeah. All right. Well, uh just one question off the top here. You were retired. You you have uh uh a very long career in firefighting already. We're the chief, I think, 10 years in Starbucks. Yeah. Um and you you got out of the game. So what what brought you back?

SPEAKER_03 25:23

To be honest with you, it was the Lord that brought me back because I did not even want to come out of retirement. I'm I'm just dead serious. I was uh having a good time at home every day. Uh I I have a D car detailing business. I was detailing vehicles and I was uh teaching my CPR classes and you know just hanging out with family. But uh the Lord honestly uh kept tugging in my heart to apply, to apply, to apply. And I know it had to be a purpose because I like I said, and then when everything took place, I was like, well, you know, I I come on out, but I don't know how this is gonna work out. And then when all that's the stuff started hitting the papers and it was kind of like this big deal on Facebook, and I was like, I don't know, I need to back off. But he kept uh pushing me to do it, and then I'm I'm glad that I did. Uh and honestly he kept pushing you to do. You're talking about the Lord? No, the Lord kept pushing me. No, the mayor's not he kept pushing me to to move forward with it. And I, you know, in my spirit, I knew I had to do it, and uh I didn't want to be disobedient, so I'm I moved and it's gonna be a good thing. I honestly think it's gonna be a good thing. Um, and I feel like I still have something to give.

SPEAKER_05 26:31

So did the people who are now under you, do they think it's gonna be a good thing? Because a lot of them were rooting for the other guy.

SPEAKER_03 26:38

Yeah, I think that uh, you know, if you've been in a public apartment for 20-something years and you got the people at your department, you're always gonna root for those people on the inside. Um and I would probably be doing the same thing. So I don't hold anything against them. Uh we have we've met these last three days uh with the shifts, uh some phenomenal personnel work over here. I I honestly think it's gonna be a good, it's gonna be a good transition. Uh they've been very accepting. Uh they've been honest about some things that they didn't like and and and so maybe some of the processes. And I understand that. Me from the outside looking in, you know, I never did take it uh as it being a personal attack against me. It's just, you know, it's politics and sometimes culture. Yeah, it's you know, and and sometimes people are upset because they didn't the person that they wanted didn't get the position. So I understand it. It's not a you know a knock against me, and it's not a knock against the department. I I I went in with uh open arms and say, I don't hold anything against anybody. We're here to do a job, and our job is to protect the system, Columbus. So that's that's the main thing I'm here for.

SPEAKER_06 27:39

One of the concerns that was aired publicly was uh we uh hire the person that's not from within the department. We have a mass exodus of firefighters. Now I know that it it would be unreasonable to think that there wouldn't be any attrition from a change like this, but what is your view or or what is your understanding, I guess, after meeting with everybody of how many you may lose in this transition?

SPEAKER_03 28:06

I don't think we're gonna lose it. I I think the people that's gonna they're gonna leave are good. We have uh people that retire, so that's definitely gonna be a part of it. Uh so people will be retiring, I think maybe seven, we're gonna leave seven retirement. I don't I don't see anybody else leaving. Now, I I could be wrong. Just having the meetings of the day, and I I didn't particularly ask that question, but the people that I have talked to in our meetings, they have been very uh open about what they thought. Uh and nobody came to me and said they were gonna leave. And I I hope they would give me an opportunity. I think that, you know, some may be waiting to see, hey, let me see how you're gonna do make a decision. But give me opportunity to uh come in and and do what I need to do and see if I can turn some things around. And it's not like the the department is in a bad shape. It I just honestly believe that change is good sometimes.

SPEAKER_06 28:53

Okay. What are the differences between the operation you had in Startville and what you're walking into here?

SPEAKER_03 29:00

It's not honestly a lot of difference. Uh five. I mean you got the national or international accreditation here. Well, you got the accreditation here. Uh but we had a we don't have accreditation over there, but we had a uh rating, a fire rating. But the accreditation, of course, is one of the things that set this sets the our department apart now. Uh we think one of the only ones in Mississippi to have it, so it sets the department apart. They have done a great job of, you know, when I came in with accreditation, they're telling me this is how we handle it, this is what we do. Our battalion chiefs are telling me, and uh uh Alan Lewis, people who've been doing this for years are setting this out work. So I'm learning now with how everything works. In Starfle, uh, of course, it's a little bit different. The the personnel, firefighters are firefighters. I mean, uh that's just being honest. Uh I could take 10 over here and change it with 10 and stuff, and it's gonna probably be the same thing. It's firefighters are just the same. Uh, but they have a love for their job over here. I can tell. And they go over there.

SPEAKER_05 29:59

They say they're all the same, but I'm hearing accounts of personalities that don't always G all.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

Oh, that's what I'm saying. Now I'll say everywhere you go, you can go anywhere in the state of Mississippi. I could they could play me in Gulfport as the fire chief, and it's gonna be the same issues in Gulfport that it is in Star. It's it's it's gonna be the same thing. Uh they do love the job. I can see that. Uh they're concerned about the department and and the direction of the department, and I've assured them that we as we come up together, we're going to grow the department together.

SPEAKER_06 30:33

Well, and now uh Dwayne was on the podcast. Yes, a couple of years ago. Okay, so did you did you listen to the podcast? I did listen to a lot of you. Okay. So what advice did he give to you? Is it in line with some of the things that he said on the podcast to us about what he would say to you, the advice that he would give to you coming coming in?

SPEAKER_03 30:52

This is what he told me. And I this is what I appreciate about him. He said, make it your own, and I'm not gonna tell you anything about anybody. Learn them for yourself. That's what I wanted. He was very supportive, he'd been very supportive uh and showed me uh this is how we do things, this is the budget. Um if you need help on this, let me know. But he actually was kind of hands-off, which what I you know, I wanted uh when I got ready to meet the staff, he didn't he didn't want to be anywhere around. He wanted me to do it on my own, have my own way. So he's been very supportive and doing it the way we want to do it. So um I'm I miss him as being a chief and a friend, but he's always been my friend. Uh we I've been doing him a long time. We have uh had some classes together, kind of grew up in this thing together. So um when he got promoted, well, back in the day he got promoted to training chief. I was already training chief, so I had the opportunity to give him my rank off my my rank off my colour. Oh, that's awesome. So at the my first meeting, he took his rank off him and gave it to me. So it's it was a cool thing to see, to get that exchange. So um he was great for the department, he really was. Um and Chief Andrews, I I've been doing these for a long time, but I think we're just we're different. I mean, our styles of leadership are gonna be different. Uh, and they're gonna have to get used to how I lead for and I'm gonna have to get used to him as well. But I think uh I think like I say it's gonna be different for them a little bit, but a good difference.

SPEAKER_06 32:18

Well you made some you made reference, a couple of references to uh the Facebook pushback once it started leaking out that you were a finalist and probably the pick. Um you you you responded to that. I read I read that response. Uh you know, you uh to to shorten it up, you know, I'm not gonna apologize for for who I am and and my qualifications. Right. Just not gonna do that. I guess one, what went into the decision of you posting that response to the naysayers, and now from here, how do you get how do you get to the point to where you get them to give you the benefit of the doubt?

SPEAKER_03 32:59

I think some people are never gonna give you the benefit of the doubt, to be honest with you. I think some people of mine were already made up, and and that's fine. You know, I'm not trying to please everybody as long as I and even the people who are naysayers, I'm here to protect them. Uh, what led me to do the post, there were some very negative things in the post uh concerning my wife, the mayor, and the mayor's wife. And when I saw that, I knew I had to respond. Because I mean, you know, it got a little nasty there. The internet people are mean. Yeah, interesting. Keyboard cowboys, I just I wouldn't tell it to your face. Yeah, I thought that was a little bit uh disrespectful, and that's why I responded. And I tried to do it tactful, but also get my point across. And I was like, I mean, I put in the application like 28 other people. They happened to choose me. I'm you know, I'm not sorry about that. I am qualified. I've been doing this for a while, I know what I'm doing, so it is.

SPEAKER_05 33:53

And they were probably astonished that you actually said something. They're like, oh, this guy actually responded back. Yeah, because I ain't gonna be able to do that. Because I think they can just say things and be done with.

SPEAKER_03 34:02

Yeah. And that's, you know, you have a right to say what you want to say, but still uh be respectful. I mean, you know, we don't want to uh put people down and start bringing families involved. I'm like, my family has nothing to do with this. I mean, they've been very supportive. Um I know the mayor, I'm I'm familiar with his wife, but that's where it stops at, you know. He I consider him to be a good man. I I think I believe she's a good woman, but don't try to make it like, you know, uh I'm talking to the mayor's wife, and the mayor's talking, you know, it it it was it was very disrespectful. So I felt like I needed to respond. You understand. Yep.

SPEAKER_06 34:40

I mean, I know that uh a new leader coming in, looking at it with your kind of experience. What's the first thing you looked at? If I could if I could change anything about how that about any of this, this is what I'm changing right off the top. What what what's that?

SPEAKER_03 34:56

A couple things we changed off the top. First of all, this week uh was a mandatory physical fitness. Now we have people who do work out, but it was not mandatory. So that's one thing first thing, it's mandatory physical fitness. So you one hour a day, you're gonna you're gonna work out. And so now we're looking at uh possibilities of getting it getting some memberships uh in the at the local gyms to make sure that because we have a gym at the stations, but everybody can.

SPEAKER_05 35:22

You're not gonna lead these workouts yourself. You're looking kind of clean.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

I'm not gonna lead them, but I'm gonna be a part of them. I told them, you know, I'm gonna I'm I work out about four or five times a week, so I'm gonna make sure that I'm I hold up my end of the bargains. I don't want to tell I'm not gonna tell you to work out and do something that I'm not doing. So I'm gonna lead by example. I'll be out there with them, and whenever they have we have a uh physical fitness assessment twice a year, I'll be out there as well. And I told them yesterday I probably beat some of them, but you know, I got to I gotta have a little challenge. Give them a little challenge. But uh that, and I think one of the things that I do uh don't have Wi-Fi at every station. So Really? Yeah, that's one of the things I found out yesterday.

SPEAKER_05 36:02

So Wi-Fi and a dehumidifier in every station, right?

SPEAKER_03 36:07

We're gonna say Wi-Fi for that. So I think some of the simple things to work on. Uh we have some issues with apparatus. Um big issues with apparatus right now. So tackling those main issues right now, those main things that that could hold the department back up, have somebody hurt. We I need to address those first. So those those are the main ones I think I, you know, I'm gonna address the next over the next couple weeks.

SPEAKER_06 36:36

Department's been without an assistant chief since uh 2022. Yes. How much longer will the department be without an assistant chief? Not much longer. What does that process look like? No hesitation there.

SPEAKER_03 36:46

That process will be starting uh between now and June. Uh so by I I I feel by maybe the second board meeting in June, we'll have a assistant chief. Because I uh the way I look at the assistant chief, I beg for one to start. I beg. Like years. So to come here and it's a it's on you to find your assistant chief. I I'm I'm looking forward to it. Uh as I grow in the department, the assistant chief need to grow as well with me. So we need to come up to this together. So uh it'll be soon, quite soon.

SPEAKER_06 37:17

One of the things that um uh Dwayne was very aggressive about and and was very successful with was uh whether he was doing it through the department or whether he was doing it through Susan Wilde or the grant writer, um he pursued grant funding uh aggressively and constantly for that uh fire department and got a lot of money because of that. Um I guess kind of what is your viewpoint and what is sort of your strategy for engaging with that process? How much of a priority is that gonna be for you as chief?

SPEAKER_03 37:54

It's a big priority. If you uh familiar with Stark, I was the same way. I was very uh grant-oriented. Uh I think probably over a million dollars of grants that in my time of being chief, I'm training chief and then chief, uh training officer in chief. Um so I'm very uh I think grants uh, you know, they're kind of drying up right now with FEMA, with some of the stuff with the administration going on. But by by far, we will be dealing with grants. Matter of fact, I just talked with uh I spoke with the grant writer this week. We have a generator grant that's we got that's that's something that Dwayne did before he left.

SPEAKER_06 38:28

So thank goodness that so you're saying that there that grant was From my understanding has been approved.

SPEAKER_03 38:33

So now we're it's gonna be generators for the station for each station? Okay. So five generators for each station. And those generators also will be able to power those uh storm shelters as well. Okay. So that's a really good thing.

SPEAKER_06 38:48

And are those replacements or are those y'all didn't have this and now you do? Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 38:53

I think they had a couple that they needed maybe at the main station, but this will be power for all stations. So that's that's great off the bat. So coming into that, uh we're looking at a grant uh hopefully for a training facility. And that's that's a big thing. That's one thing I really have pushed for. And if we can't get the grant, we'll possibly piece something together, be able to piece something together over the years to get a training facility. Um so yes, I'm very active with the grants. I just think uh if you don't apply, then you're not gonna get it. So yeah. I was uh fortunate enough to be able to write grants over there. I mean, pretty much everyone I received in Starfire, I got it, I had an opportunity, was hands-on writing the grants. Uh it's a little different over here. I'm still gonna be a part of that process, but yeah, we'll definitely be pursuing grants.

SPEAKER_06 39:38

Okay. And and really last question I have for you, and I would I would be remiss if I didn't if I didn't ask it. Okay. Um I live in Starville, you were my fire chief for a long time. Um and I covered uh some of the things in the last couple of years of your uh chiefship there. And uh, you know, we we also covered the the your mayoral campaign after that. So I mean you you left uh you retired from uh Starville Fire Department after a couple of years of advocating pretty hard for pay raises within your department and grants within your department that didn't always pan out so well. Uh also had some you left out of there and then you immediately uh ran against your old boss. Right. What happened there?

SPEAKER_03 40:36

Well, I I'll I'll tell you this. So this this we go back a few years. Uh so myself and the current mayor, Mayor Spruer, which I respect highly. Uh I think she's done an excellent job. So I'll I'll I'll give her that. I will never take that from her. I think she's a very impressive uh person, without a doubt. Uh we had a conversation uh a few years be prior to this mayor thing even coming up. This is uh maybe her uh two years before she decided to run again. So we're coming on a trip back from Jackson from the State Fire Academy. Uh, and I jokingly told her, she asked me what I was gonna do when I retired, and I said, I'm gonna run for mayor. And she said, Okay, well, that may be a good idea. So we uh and we it was a joke, starting off being a joke, to be honest with you. And then uh later that next couple weeks, she got me in contact with her uh campaign manager. Uh-huh. Because at that time she was not gonna run again. She had made her, she said she wouldn't run it again. She made the decision not to run again. That you can only, she only felt that you could do two terms. So that's what she said, and that's okay. And so she was seen to be on board with me running. And to be honest with you, I'm not sure what happened. So something happened. I I she decided she wanted to run again. That's our prerogative. That's fine. Uh I said I was gonna run, and I did what I said I was gonna do. I mean, you know, uh, it was a uh it was an interesting transition. Uh I was still the chief and I was running against my boss, so it was uh some different dynamics there. I honestly didn't have a I didn't have an issue with it, but it but some some people, some members of the board, they took an issue with it. And it was a very difficult transition. I mean, it was a I said the last year and a half, two years at the fire department were difficult. We still got things done, which was amazing. We still got grants, we still were able to move forward. It was a difficult transition, you know. Uh, but you know, I ran, I did, I thought I did quite well for my first time, and you know, coming up 170 votes short of an eighth uh two-term uh incumbent. So I I was pleased with the results. Uh I think it showed her and it maybe showed the city that people wanted change and people wanted to be heard. And a lot of my campaign people just simply said I'm I'm not being heard and they're not listening to me. So I think it was a lot of that. So uh it didn't work out. I mean, I congratulated her and I'm I'm proud of her. I think she's, you know, the staff is growing. And, you know, I have nothing eager to say towards her. I think the fire department is great, and I I I still live in the city right now, so I mean I love it over there, and I think that uh my prayers that they do a good job and they understand what the citizens want. And I my thing was project over people, don't put projects over people. That's and that's that was my goal to make sure our people are, and that's probably my background of being a servant leader.

SPEAKER_05 43:38

So was there anything else you'd like to add today?

SPEAKER_03 43:42

Uh I just want to uh ask the citizens, even the ones who were initially against, just give me an opportunity to to come in and do uh what I do. Uh I I think that they'll be quite pleased. Uh we're gonna be in the public. Not that the department was already in the public, we'll be out of Good bit. I I believe in being out and uh I ask anybody who needs something. We if we can help you out with smoke detectors or whatever the case may be, just give me a call. If you got questions, give me a call and uh give me an opportunity to close the department to make the department uh when I said better is not a knock on cheap hues, but give me an opportunity to make the department uh grow and make it uh make it mine, I guess I'll say it that because I definitely want to knock what they have already accomplished over here, which has been a great job.

SPEAKER_05 44:30

So Well, I tell you what, when the smoke starts rising, I think the people of the friendly city will be giving you a chance, that is for sure. So thanks for coming in today.

SPEAKER_03 44:40

I appreciate it. Thank y'all for letting me come back.

Pilgrimage Tours And Telling More History

SPEAKER_05 44:42

Absolutely. Our guest has been Mr. Charles Yarbra, the new fire chief. Bonus content here in Catfish Alley Studio. We are pleased to have now Miss Betty Bryan, who is the owner of Alden Hall, and that's on the pilgrimage tour. It's a block north of where?

SPEAKER_02 44:59

It is a block north of Temple Heights. Actually, I have not I I have not shown this year, but I am helping with others. My home has been on the pilgrimage for a number of years, so I feel that I can address the subject adequately.

SPEAKER_06 45:18

Okay. Well, uh let me just start here. Um I know that uh they had the the showing of the Natchez documentary where they uh here the other day, where and that documentary uh uh looks very um critically and very deeply at the uh way that um African American history and the whole story of antebellum history is being presented in Natchez, and it brought up some questions on parallels between their pilgrimage and our pilgrimage and from uh in Columbus, but from my understanding, uh from my understanding, efforts might have been inconsistent over the years, but there have been some overt efforts to tell more of that story. Has that been your experience? Where do you where you kind of sit on that?

SPEAKER_02 46:10

Absolutely. Um The Preservation Society was uh really begun in in an effort to include more stories, more of our history, and to uh try to um include everyone. And I think that we are working on doing that in many ways. So I'm I'll be happy to share some of those efforts. Well, yeah, so sure. What like what are some of those efforts? Okay. The we have uh several homes on the pilgrimage from our group, but um our efforts are broader than just the pilgrimage. Well, let me start, let me back up just a little bit. In the last couple of well, the last several years, we have presented uh many events, most in conjunction with pilgrimage, and such that would um enlighten people to things that they may not have realized about Columbus. For example, at the Haven, which of course is the only uh home built that that is still standing that was built by Freemen of Color. Uh last year there was the loveliest program that correlated the drinking go follow the drinking gourd story about the Underground Railroad. Now, Rufus has told this story a number of times. And I taught it to my school children when I taught music, and and it it's a it's a wonderful story. And then we um had Bernard Taylor and Laberta Taylor. And so he he uh sang the song, Laberta gave the background and told how it might possibly be um applicable to the Haven, that it may possibly have been a stop on the Underground Railroad, which I think is just absolutely fascinating.

SPEAKER_06 48:23

Well, y I guess what is the resistance to telling those stories from other people who the hoop skirts and the let's talk about hoop skirts and columns and not that.

SPEAKER_02 48:36

A lot has been made of the romantic South. And things have been uh and it and it's wonderful to have hoop skirts and to show uh where your great-grandfather slept and um tell stories of things that happened back then. But it's also important to tell stories that have been neglected. So there is a group um uh uh uh that I do have friends on both sides, and some prefer to uh concentrate on the romanticism and the pretty furniture and the um the pretty gardens and and and um and tell stories about their ancestors, and some prefer to be more inclusive. So I think there's a place for both, but I uh I will readily admit to being on the side of inclusivity.

SPEAKER_05 49:34

Okay. So some of those stories where uh the wife just needs to grab a carriage bolt and beat her husband upside the head, they don't always make it to the record that survives the years, do they?

SPEAKER_02 49:48

Well, I mean Well no, that's true of true of any um group, uh and and and true of anything. So no, but but there's so many, so many fascinating stories that have not um been given enough publicity. Um my friend Um Gaines Gaskin, her um great, I've forgotten great-great-grandmother or something, Marion Stark Gaines was a really talented artist, and she painted and she ran um her farm. She uh was a very strong woman, and she accomplished so much. And other lots of other stories about people that that are not really known. And one thing that thrills me now is the um the scrutiny that's being given to neglected cemeteries, because uh I I will tell you a wonderful success story of cemeteries, and that was in LaGrange, Georgia. You may not know, but the very talented black um born-enslaved bridge builder Horace King, who built the first bridge across the Tonbibi in Columbus, was from LaGrange, Georgia. And the people of LaGrange recently and the the uh historical society there wanted very much to honor him and to um pay tribute to people who had not been recognized for uh in downtown uh LaGrange there is a cemetery called the Mulberry Street Cemetery, and uh lots of um Civil War veterans were buried um in one part, and then there was a fence, and on the other side of the fence were the unmarked graves of people who had been enslaved. And so the Historical Society got busy, got a grant, um, and they were able to do the ground penetrating radar for the uh side that was enslaved. They were able to mark those uh graves, not they didn't have names for everyone, but with t with little uh marble markers. They had uh paths going through the cemetery from one to another, and along one path was a covered bridge of Horace King that was incorporated into that. And that that is a wonderful model of 21st century um trying to tell the whole story. And so that I I I think we're uh we're on the right track. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_06 52:56

Okay. Well, but l let me ask you this just in conclusion. I d I I know you've been involved with pilgrimage. Uh I I suppose that there are, you know, uh African Americans who buy tickets and go through it. Oh heavens, yes. And have you had an opportunity to talk to some of those on on the back end of their tours?

SPEAKER_02 53:18

Uh I have, and not only that, but but for years and years, a number of my black friends have helped me and helped in other homes with pilgrimage. So there is uh there is still a residual hurt among some, but uh uh there are are others who are willing to um be open and to explore things. So I I think we're in a good place and moving forward.

SPEAKER_06 53:51

All right. So the feedback you get is is generally positive from people of all hues that go through pilgrimage and l and go through the tours.

SPEAKER_02 54:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 54:01

Well that's good to know.

unknown 54:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:04

You have anything you want to add? Well, I am just thrilled that we are continuing to do pilgrimage. I think it's a really worthwhile thing. Um originally in 1940, of course, there there were um there was a fair amount of genteel poverty, and uh some of the people who lived in the big houses really needed to find a way to be able to paint and keep them up. And so um there was uh both the people who had money and who did not, but had the the big houses um open their homes for for tourists, and some of the money was used to help maintain the houses. And so our our um emphasis is still on trying to show the wonderful, wonderful things that Columbus has. We have more antebellum homes and more homes of distinctive architectural quality side by side than many, many, many other cities. And it's it's wonderful. It adds to our community, and it uplifts us all when we find reasons to rejoice and it and to come together in a community spirit.

Three Local Updates And Sign-Off

SPEAKER_05 55:27

Well, thanks for coming in today. Ladies and gentlemen, Miss Betty Bryan, the owner and curator of Alden Hall. Thank you. All right, Zach, for those who did not get to pick up the paper this week, what are the three things?

SPEAKER_06 55:41

All right, number one, SDI's$300 million biocarbon solutions facility is open for business after a ceremony Wednesday where dignitaries cut logs instead of a ribbon. The plant will make biocarbon products from organic timber waste, creating a hundred jobs that will all pay in six figures. Line starts at the back. Um, American Daily closing in is closing in on its big comeback at Columbus Place. Contractor Tony Vu confirmed to our business columnist Mary Pilates this week that work at the popular restaurant at the former Lee Mall is, quote, almost done, and reopening and the reopening date should be announced soon.

SPEAKER_05 56:20

I'm gonna tell you something. That right there is what has kept that mall open. People love them, some American devil. I promise you that.

SPEAKER_06 56:30

Number three, Donna Davis of Macomb is the new human resources director for the City of Columbus. She will replace Pat Mitchell, who is retiring in July after 40 years of working for the city.

SPEAKER_05 56:42

And you heard it right here on between the headlines. Reach out to us, tips at cdispatch.com. You can also follow me on Facebook or ex at d Chisholm Double Zero and leave a public comment. Keeping it real here in Catfish Alley Studio and Historic Downtown Columbus, your host has been Zach Player, and I am David Chisholm. Y'all stay friendly out there.

SPEAKER_01 57:05

I'm just a simple old country boy, but um I think that makes sense. I've stepped out and I've said what I had to say.

SPEAKER_05 57:12

You've been listening to Between the Headlines with Zach and David. That's what old people do.

SPEAKER_04 57:19

That is.