Between the Headlines: Columbus
Between the Headlines dives deep into the stories shaping Columbus and Lowndes County, Mississippi. Hosted by The Commercial Dispatch managing editor Zack Plair and local businessman and commentator David Chism, this show goes beyond the front page to bring you the real conversations behind local politics, policies and people. Zack’s journalistic expertise and David’s insight deliver in-depth analysis, spirited debate, and behind-the-scenes context you won’t get anywhere else. It's honest discussion on what matters.
Between the Headlines: Columbus
You Don’t Take the Ball Away from Michael Jordan
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Zack and David have breaking news with this episode as the city's grant-writer Susan Wilder has submitted her letter of resignation. Wilder, who has spearheaded the city's fossil park, the Alva Temple Museum and other projects, cited a toxic work environment in her letter. The guys discuss how the city can expect to hire top notch talent if it hamstrings its top players.
After that, the guys preview a Friday meeting between the city and county. Each likely owes the other money, but they have been at a stalemate in terms of collecting. Who's right and who's wrong?
Then the discussion turns to whether it's appropriate for the city to be sponsoring religious events on city property.
Breaking News Sets The Tone
SPEAKER_03I don't know what he has come up with today to talk about.
SPEAKER_06I'm not asking you to hide anything. You know, don't put it out there. Let the people see it.
SPEAKER_03I've never not worked in a hospital working department.
SPEAKER_06You can't argue with anybody when they're putting facts in your face. Zach, that's a hard question. I have no answer for it. From the opinion page of the commercial dispatch. This is Between the Headlines.
SPEAKER_04This week on a breaking news edition of Between the Headlines, Susan Wilder, Grant Writer and Administrator for the City of Columbus, has tendered her resignation effective July 2nd. We have the letter and it is telling. Also, Jason Spears goes rogue in executive session in City Council and everybody on staff is nervous. And should the City of Columbus be sponsoring church-related events and other politician branded type events? We'll talk, but
Sponsors And Local Support
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Studio Welcome And Soccer Rant
SPEAKER_04Welcome, welcome. Good to be with you here today in Catfish Alley Studio in the heart of Columbus's historic district. Pleasure as always, our managing editor of the dispatch and host of today's show is Mr. Zach Plair. Zach, are you keeping up with the World Cup? Uh no, I don't do soccer. Don't do soccer at all. I have watched probably 10 to 12 hours of soccer my whole life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I have yet to see an actual goal transpire. Like I'm starting to think it's fake, like wrestling or something.
SPEAKER_01I've seen very few goals in soccer anytime that I've watched. I took uh Zaley out when she was real little to uh uh MSU, you know, before they really blew up in soccer. And we watched two games in person where they went to overtime. So we're talking about like 120 minutes of soccer twice. Oh man.
SPEAKER_04And the clock goes up, so you don't know when that game's gonna end.
SPEAKER_01And both games ended in a scoreless tie, and I said, no more.
SPEAKER_04And then on top of that, the teams wear these random colors, and I have to do racial profiling to figure out which team is from which country.
SPEAKER_01Not touching that.
SPEAKER_04Oh, come on.
SPEAKER_01My daily paper internship when I was in college, uh, they sent me out to cover a soccer tournament that was gonna go on all day. I didn't know the rules of soccer, I learned them on the fly that day, which is the best way to learn how to cover sport. But uh the very first game I covered was a for you pool play game.
SPEAKER_04A what?
SPEAKER_01For and under playing soccer.
SPEAKER_04There ought not be any rules to that.
SPEAKER_01There hardly were. Okay. Lots of dog piles, but it but I digress.
SPEAKER_04Lots of fun, lots of fun, and I assume that was quite intense and quite lively, as was the last meeting of city council. Yeah. Yes. And we'll get into
Susan Wilder Resignation Letter Read
SPEAKER_04that. But um, on the heels of that, we have this letter from Susan Wilder, and with your permission, I will read this letter. That works for me. To the mayor and city council. Last week I informed Donna Davis and Jim Brigham that I would be resigning from my position as grant writer and administrator for the City of Columbus when I returned from Denver. I am now resigning my position and providing you with a two-week notice beginning Monday, June 22nd, 2026. My last day will be July 2nd, 2026. I have done my best for the City of Columbus and am proud of the work I have accomplished. However, the toxic work environment, pettiness, and the utter disrespect I have had to endure by the executive team and some of your employees is more than I can tolerate. It is my hope that the executive team and employees will continue to understand that they should be working for the best interest of the city of Columbus and its citizens. I wish you all the best, sincerely, Susan Wilder. Will you read that last one again? It is my hope that it is my hope that all of the executive team and employees will come to understand that they should be working for the best interest of the City of Columbus and its citizens. I wish you all the best, sincerely, Susan Wilder. Boy.
Fallout For Grants And City Projects
SPEAKER_01Well, so a little context, as y'all uh we talked about this, I think, last week. She went to Denver with the Rosales, the documentarians for the uh Alva Temple documentary. Okay.
SPEAKER_04She's already been to Denver, she's been to Denver.
SPEAKER_01She went Sunday, came back, I guess got back yesterday, came back into work today and quit or tendered her resignation. And this is on the heels of that work session where um she was trying to get permission to go to Denver to interview this uh 102-year-old uh Tuskegee airman who served with Temple and was on the on the team with him that won the Top Gun competition, the very first Top Gun competition. So this was a big get. She's excited about it. She's trying to get permission, she's trying to get you know the meals paid for under the contract.
SPEAKER_04Yes, and then it was the for Rosales and what contract do you mean?
SPEAKER_01Oh, well, this contract. Here you go, signed by the mayor. Council's looking at this for the first time, going, What the hell is this? We don't we've never seen this before. City attorney's over here going, Neither have I.
SPEAKER_04And yet she comes back with the document bearing the mayor's signature work.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And and then, you know, Stephen admits to signing it. Um but doesn't admit to reading it. Well, doesn't say he didn't read it either, to be fair, but uh was not clear, I think is fair to say, that he was signing something that was going into business with this contractor on these terms.
SPEAKER_04And so that meeting just went into utter chaos.
SPEAKER_01That meeting went into utter chaos. Um I don't know what I don't know for certain what happened behind closed doors after this, but one would assume that something did because she went from being very happy to get clearance to go to Denver Wednesday to coming into work today or Thursday morning and giving this letter. And according to this, she told Donna Davis, new HR lady, uh replacing Pat, uh Jim Brigham is the chief financial officer. So one would assume at some point last week this got to be untenable for her. Um so you know, one wonders, was she benched? Was she raked over the coals? Because that wouldn't be the first time, now would it?
SPEAKER_04And why Joe Mickens dressed her down, our very first episode. So ugly.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm. And and it wasn't just him. I mean, Steven was in on that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um so now we've got uh done my best for the city of Columbus, proud of the work I've accomplished, which she should be because we're talking about uh millions of dollars that she has um gotten for the city. Uh uh and we'll we'll talk about some of the uh the bigger ticket items of that, uh, on top of the fact that she's helping that she's been helping George manage the uh blight elimination program this whole time. Um however, the toxic work environment, pettiness, and the utter disrespect that I have endeared by uh by the executive team and some of your employees. I'm assuming some of your employees that's a careful. That's a direct address to Stephen, uh some of your employees, uh, is more than I can tolerate. So I'd be interested to know exactly what happened, but we've got enough of the house built from what's been done in public to where we can uh ascertain some things. Uh uh like we were talking about uh February of last year when we st the very first episode of this podcast, we talked about a meeting where uh they dressed her down to the point where she runs out of the executive session crying because of something that Keith Gaskin did and owned. Like he said, Yeah, I did that. I sent this grant that they didn't want sent. She didn't do that. I did that. And then they uh they just roasted her instead. Stephen gets elected. Susan is down at the uh shopping center, the the strip mall uh where the city offices are and that uh Chinese restaurant. She's there, she's working on the map for the blight elimination program, she's writing grants, she's got uh you know plenty of latitude to do her work. Stephen comes into office, moves her into a closet at City Hall, where presumably an eye can be kept on somebody who they've already kind of been pushing to get in line. And I think that's fair to say based on what we know and have reported.
SPEAKER_02And now nobody likes that, by the way. Nobody likes that. That's bad.
SPEAKER_01So now she's at City Hall, she's still doing a good job, she's still b busting her hump for the fossil park, busting her hump for this Alva Temple Museum. And now she is saying that during that time and this is one side of the story, we don't have the rest of the sides of this story, and I I want to acknowledge that, but toxic work environment, pettiness, and the utter disrespect I've had to endure.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, uh as far as the other side of the story, I can't help but think that possibly Mayor Lynn Spruell is listening to the sound of our voice and saying, Oh, I think I need a grief.
SPEAKER_01Grant writer.
SPEAKER_04Well, she may be saying that, but she may be saying, can we get over all of this touchy feely stuff and just get down to business? I mean, it that that right there is one side of the story, but um at the end of the day, we're looking at this. This is not so much about Susan Wilder as it is about the what the deuce is going on within City Hall.
SPEAKER_01Well, and the a nice little segue into into later when we talk about what happened at the executive session Tuesday night. But um because I think that that is related. But look Susan Wilder is a is an intense passionate person about her work. I have observed that for myself. I think that anybody being objective about her is going to say the same thing. Uh she's also incredibly effective. Um And so when you're dealing with that, yes, a person like Susan who's gonna get single-minded about making sure something gets done right or making sure something gets done the best that it can get done. There are gonna be opportunities there, there are gonna be challenges there, there are gonna be uh times there where somebody supervising her is gonna have to say, hey, Susan, can we can we take this back to eight, seven, down from fourteen? And I get that. I mean, I've had to experience that in my own right with my own passion.
SPEAKER_04Simmer down, Zach.
SPEAKER_01But yeah. But look. That fossil park is a seven hundred thousand dollar endeavor that they've gotten almost all of the funding for. That thing's happening. Why is that thing happening? Because Susan Wilder made it happen. And yes, there are other players involved in that. I understand. But you know, there were there were other players on the uh 91 through 93 Bulls, too. But who made those championships happen when it came right down to it? Jordan. Michael Jordan. So Susan Wilder has absolutely been the Michael Jordan of the Fossil Park. Susan Wilder has absolutely been the Michael Jordan of this Alva Temple Museum. What does this museum look like? Does it happen? Sure. But what does it look like if Susan Wilder isn't riding herd on making that happen? It looks like something a whole lot less than it will.
SPEAKER_04Well really good and expensive video when you walk in the door.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. Or I mean, do we get this interview with this hundred and two-year-old uh veteran that is still that she tracks down, make sure that the interview is done, is it cognizant enough to talk about one, his service, cognizant enough to talk about uh his relationship with Alva Temple. Like that's a big get. And that's something that you don't have happen unless somebody is pursuing that. You you z I have seen the boxes of of artifacts and exhibits and papers that she's collected for this museum. This museum could be a little closet in the airport somewhere where they, oh yeah, that guy used to live here. It's gonna be better than that, and it's gonna be better than that because Susan Wilder was the Michael Jordan of that project. All right, so Greg Lewis runs the parks, and I like Greg Lewis fine. There's nothing wrong with Greg Lewis. We get along great. Um at best, he's the Scottie Pippen of the Fossil Park. And if he wasn't, he's been there for ten years. Why is the fossil park happening now? Michael Jordan showed up. Are they working together? Is does he have does he play a role in that? Absolutely he does. But what happened when Jordan went and played baseball?
SPEAKER_04That would be like David Chisholm trying to play soccer.
SPEAKER_01Yes, Jordan was hitting 202 with the Birmingham Barons, but what happened to the Bulls? If Scottie Pippen could run that team, they would have won in 94 and 95, wouldn't they? Instead, they got knocked out by the Knicks in 94, didn't they? And it would be a shame if the fossil park gets knocked out by the Knicks, which was more of an insult maybe a couple of years ago than it would be now. But that that's what I'm saying. Like okay, so you're gonna hand this project to now your parks director. It's a park, so let's hand it to our parks director, and it'll be fine. Well, okay. And due respect to Greg Lewis, but he's got a whole lot of other parks to run too. Does this fossil park look the same without Michael Jordan on the team? Did the bulls look the same without Michael Jordan on the team? Does the city's grant riding prowess look the same? Does their ability to get money look the same? Does their ability to identify other places where they could get hundreds of thousands of dollars here and there and yonder and enhance the city? Does that ability diminish when she walks out the door or does it does it bolster? Does it stay the same? And all I am saying is that it diminishes. And what a crying damn shame that is when if what she says is true here is the reason that she's leaving.
SPEAKER_04Correct me if I'm wrong. Thus far, she has absolutely taken the high road at every opportunity. You can say no to that. I'm just I'm asking because I'm I'm I'm not there as much as you are.
SPEAKER_01I have not seen her publicly take the low road.
SPEAKER_04Okay. But on the way out the door, she takes some shots. Okay.
SPEAKER_01And I mean she doesn't go into any specifics here really, but she's got some sauce on it for sure.
SPEAKER_04She's she doesn't have to. Yeah. We can read that and we can take that whole letter and and condense it down into, or I could do it, I could say, uh, dear mayor and counsel, I'm tired of your fecal matter, sincerely, Susan Wilder, and that's the end of it. That's what I read. Yeah. Okay. The opinions are those of the speaker. Now that that said, to your point, there's folks out there that love this town. We it would, but it's going to be very, very hard to find someone that's got energy and enthusiasm, focus, and drive to jump in there and take the bull by the horn, especially in the wake of this quote unquote hostile work environment.
SPEAKER_01And again, they they have a right to speak to that as well, the mayor and and these others, because we have one side of the story just from this letter, and they will have the right to speak. There's going to be some points that they make that are going to be valid.
SPEAKER_04Lastly on this, Zach, you know, every time somebody gets stabbed or somebody catches a bullet, and I don't want to trivialize that because that's a bad thing, and we certainly need to do better. But you always hear somebody out there saying, oh, the friendly city is at it again, right? Uh-huh. That's what you hear, even though you and I both know that statistically speaking, we are a fairly friendly city. All right. Some primers going into that. I want to rebrand that and I want to say, when are we going to become the friendly city again in terms of our civic discourse, in terms of the way that we do business, in terms of the way that we handle City Hall, in terms of the way that we invite people to work in the purview of public service, and not feel like they're going to be scapegoated, not feel like they're going to be thrown under the bus, and not feel like they have to deal with a bunch of horse crap on a daily basis. Well, okay. That's what I'm seeing. Well, all right. I read the paper on the regular, and it is a habitual thing here in the quote unquote friendly city. What's going to happen?
SPEAKER_01And I mean, you're not wrong there, and I'm going to tell you that to your point, how do you replace her? All right, so you've got a grant writer who's come in and done great work for you, gotten a whole bunch of money for you, has worked her tail off, and has has conspicuously, and I think that that's I think that's a a lot of the problem here, has conspicuously been very effective. How are you going to replace that person when all of your other pool of applicants is going to see, okay, well, if I go and I do my job and I do it well and the community gives me any of the credit, or if I take ownership of any of this work, if I step on any toes by doing so, then I'm going to have to deal with this shit.
SPEAKER_04A hundred percent. Who wants to come to Mississippi?
SPEAKER_01So who are you gonna get? Who who are you gonna get to replace her if uh who's gonna be as good as her if keeping your head down and keeping quiet?
SPEAKER_04A masochist. Somebody who just enjoys pain. Right. We've got to change the culture. You know, no question about it. All right. So the flip side of this, you said there's two sides to every story.
Executive Session Gets Heated
SPEAKER_04Um this comes on the heels of an executive session uh wherein Jason Spears, among others, uh got a little hot-collared as I understand it. And there was some yelling going there. There was there was but uh let me tell you about that. You and I need to break in City Hall at night uh and take in there a door that we've ordered off of Timu that has absolutely no R value to it.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_04So we can just hear every dang thing they're saying.
SPEAKER_01That's illegal, even
SPEAKER_04It would be so fun.
SPEAKER_01If you want to do that, I'm not going to stop you, but I'm not going to be party to it. City's already arrested me once.
SPEAKER_04Well, I might have to stay in the county jail for a while.
SPEAKER_01I'll come get you out. If they owe Ari, I'll have the $25 on me. The $25, that's it.
SPEAKER_03So they're going to go to the ADM. Tips at CBistpatrick.com.
SPEAKER_04All right. So there were there were several positions to come under scrutiny. Susan Wilder's position.
SPEAKER_01Susan Wilder's was one of them. So the there were six positions that they ended up talking about. And so setting the scene for you here, normal executive session, they they kick the public out of the room, and then the mayor, the council, the city attorney, and certain members of senior staff remain. And then anybody who they call in is also welcome to be in there. But if you're not welcome in there, you're not supposed to be there.
SPEAKER_04And and to be fair, um executive session is standard procedure.
SPEAKER_01Standard procedure for personnel matters and and and and a few other things that you can lead to. Yeah. So and these were going to be personnel matters. I and so, you know, Jeff Turnage, the city attorney, and Jamie Garrett and others who would normally be in those executive sessions, they come out in the gallery with or they come out in the lobby with the rest of us. Jason Spears comes out and says, We're we're gonna go into executive session to talk about personnel matters, and he lists a couple of departments, and then he just says other positions at City Hall and then walks back in there.
SPEAKER_04With with these people sitting right there, I guess on the front row with pale faces.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh well, sitting out there in the lobby with us. Oh. And then they go back into the courtroom, does Jason and just the mayor and the counsel discuss for over an hour something? And it gets heated from time to time. You look in that window and you can see uh Stephen turn toward Gary and Jason, and Jason and Gary kind of bowed up by.
SPEAKER_04That's a mistake. They better not turn toward Gary Jefferson. That looks like a bad idea.
SPEAKER_01I ain't doing it. I'm not ever gonna bow up on Gary Jefferson. If you're listening, Gary, we're all good. Uh, usually, by the way, the police chief or the police chief's designee, the assistant chief, usually, if Daltrey isn't there, uh, will come out and say, okay, they're going to executive session to discuss da-da-da-da-da, and then he'll go back in there. Well, this time everybody's out. Jason got so uh Doran Johnson's the assistant chief, uh, one of the assistants' chiefs, and he was there in Daltrey Stead Tuesday. Uh, and so he comes out and he said, They're going into executive session. I said, What's the executive session for, Chief? And he said, I I don't know. And I said, Well, that's that has to be announced before they can go into executive session. And he looks at me and he says, Councilman Spears says he's doing that. That's not normal.
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm. So then Jason flip out his phone and start dialing Jackson. I don't know. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01But he he so Jason comes out, says what he says, they go in there, they talk for an hour and a half, there's some heated back and forth that you could see it through the window, and you could hear, you couldn't hear what they were saying you couldn't understand what they were saying, but you could hear their voices raised. But one time I was like, that's Ethel yelling. Really? Yeah. No. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04That's a bad day. That's out of hand.
SPEAKER_01So they c so finally they they they come out, they bring Jeff and and the others back in to talk about more normal issues in the executive session. Then finally they call the public back in. Jason sits down, he says, we talked about this position, this position, this position, each one of them, and we took no action. This position took no action. And there were six of them, and it was the police chief, that's Joseph Daltrey, city attorney, that's Jeff Turnage, the COO, that's Jamie Garrett, CFO, Jim Brigham, the grant administrator, who until July 2nd will be Susan Wilder, and Public Works Director, Casey Bush. They didn't give them raises. So what is the issue?
SPEAKER_04Job performance one. Job performance is what they said. Okay. So there's certainly a necessity for that. There's certainly a way to do it, and nobody likes it. I've been an employee in many situations, as have you, and it's a part of the territory. However, what about the the venue and the time and the place? Boy, it's hard to unpack because these are they're in the realm of public service, right? And so you have to have um thick skin and you have to be uh prepared for public scrutiny when you're on these level of positions. But at the same time, does it kind of feel like folks are being an ass about the way this is happening?
SPEAKER_01I mean Or is it the count it is the council's right to call an executive session for for any legal reason, personnel matters being one, discuss any personnel that they wish to for any reason that for job performance at their discretion and to have anybody in there that they deem fit to be in there and kick anybody out that they need to, aside from the mayor and the council members themselves.
SPEAKER_04If there's friction there, though, is it is it safe to assume that there is one faction of the council that does not want any action taken or does not want a high level of scrutiny, and another faction that's saying, Look, I'm seeing deficiencies here, and we need to talk to somebody or do something about them.
SPEAKER_01That may be so. Uh it may just be uh uh uh a fissure between the administration and and the majority of the council, where the majority of the council is saying we want to know things and here's what we want to know. It could be, and it could very well be related to these instances or these uh r references that Susan's making in this letter. I don't know. That may be what they're wanting to talk about. Another thing that you know that they were wanting to talk about, because it came on the heels of that work session last week, Susan Wilder, Jeff Turnage, all of them, what did you know about this contract and when did you know it? Now, do I know on the record that that's what they discussed? No, I do not. But come on.
SPEAKER_04That had to have been part of this. That had to have been part of it. That broke animals back on this stuff.
SPEAKER_01Had to have been.
SPEAKER_04No way. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and and if I was the counsel, I would I would want to have those answers and I would want to hash that out in executive session, Jeff. What why is Jeff saying that he didn't see this when Susan said he did? Why did the mayor sign it before or and then Jeff come back later and say he didn't see it? Uh what the hell's going on? What is our processes and why aren't they being followed? Can we talk about what those processes are? Are they written down anywhere? Can we can we figure out how to codify them and make sure that they're being followed?
SPEAKER_04Because they weren't followed here. Those are things you can talk about without getting mad.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Unless somebody's not doing what they're supposed to be doing.
SPEAKER_01Well, you said that I didn't. Well, but but But I didn't say who. No action was taken on any of those matters. Um, but they weren't talking about the weather in there.
SPEAKER_04No, sir, they were not. And um anything else we need to say about that one? Boy. Um I just I just want to say I hope that the the culture can improve somehow because I just don't feel like this is normal, Zach. I feel like, you know, every every city has its problems and every city has things they're dealing with, but most of them I would think are are political in matter, more so than personality in matter. And there's gotta be a way that that personality can be taken out of the equation and things be talked about just from a a business standpoint and from a okay, how do we progress standpoint and how do we get things in order and maintain that way of order?
SPEAKER_01Well well, one wonders too. Um I mean, I expect these claims in Susan's letter, for example, to be refuted uh when I interview other people about it. Um but she feels this way for some reason.
SPEAKER_04And it feels like she's being thrown under the bus. I don't want to put words in your mouth.
SPEAKER_01I I don't know how she feels other than what she's saying here, but um she feels this way for some reason. And those feelings are valid whether the facts are there or not. She feels that way for some reason, and whether you're a supervisor or a friend, a what who a partner, whatever, you can't tell somebody how they feel. They tell you how they feel. And one wonders with this administration if we're so interested in looking a certain way that we're willing to be any way that we have to be to look that way. If you if you follow what I'm saying. The appearance of friendly city at the expense of the substance thereof. And that's been a fear of mine since the election season that we've talked about. And I feel like if the mayor or his senior staff, for example, is so worried about if their priority is quelling dissent instead of dealing with cross-examination, then this this kind of thing is just gonna keep it's just gonna be Xerox copies of it in every department throughout the entire administration. And and this administration can be better than that. And I've said that all along.
SPEAKER_04They can. And putting on a facade, whether it is a a big fat smile or being stern when you're generally a jovile person, if you're trying to have to be someone that you're not on a continual basis, that is super stressful.
SPEAKER_01Or if you're not dealing with the problem to get the best out of it. If you're not if if if you're not looking at your Michael Jordan and saying, okay, let's talk about your minutes, let's talk about your passing, let's talk about your shooting, rather than, hey, I need you to shut up because we don't need this PR.
SPEAKER_04Or why didn't you tell me what I was signing before I signed it?
SPEAKER_01Well, y why why did why did this happen to me? If that's your response, I'm not saying that it was his response, but I'm saying that the a lot of what he has prioritized from the campaign on has been appearance driven when it can absolutely be substance driven. It can absolutely be substance driven, and it should be.
City Logo On A Worship Night
SPEAKER_04Next topic. The city um, as I understand it, has um has put some effort and funding toward things that uh are either tangentially related or directly related to church functions, uh many of them being planned and executed by churches. Can you catch me up on this story?
SPEAKER_01Here this this week there was a a deal. Um, you know, Gary Jefferson faces on the flyer. They it's a a worship night um at Sim Scott Park, and one of the hosts to the extent that they uh gave any uh money to it or whatever, I I don't I don't know. Okay. But it was at a public facility, and it was hosted by the City of Columbus, among others. And it was it was a worship service with a a pastor and a message and and a congregation.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So what do you mean by hosted by the city of Columbus?
SPEAKER_01I mean their their name was on the flyer as a host. The City of Columbus is hosting this worship service at a public park.
SPEAKER_04Did the City of Columbus vote on that or did it just kind of appear in media?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I I'm just asking because I'm not super certain on that, but uh uh I d I do know that it happened. There's Facebook lives of it and all of that. Look, and I've talked about my faith a little bit on here, and I'm not gonna go r you know uh real deep in the paint there now, but uh, you know, I've I'm a person, but I'm a Christian, I'm an evangelical Christian, uh a believer. So as I say this, d I want that to be no. But I also value um as a practice and as a constitutional uh practice uh the separation of church and state. Having a worship service at a city park, don't have a problem with that. Having a worship service at a city park that Gary Jefferson is on the flyer as a citizen, don't have a problem with that.
SPEAKER_04I favor those two things.
SPEAKER_01Him organizing such a thing as a as a private citizen, not a problem with that. Um ostensibly helping organize that as a councilman. And then the city of Columbus putting their name on the flyer as a host.
SPEAKER_04Uh so that's probably where the line was drawn, yes. When the City of Columbus basically puts the logo on the flyer.
SPEAKER_01Yes. I feel very strongly that the government should not quell worship service and church events and things of that nature. There should be a freedom of religion and a freedom from it, and there shouldn't be a government being directly involved in planning and executing worship services. That just shouldn't happen. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_04Well, it kind of reminds me the um the City of Columbus Police Department Facebook page wished everybody a happy Ramadan. And and that did not go over very well at all.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell Well, they wish people Merry Christmas too, I suppose. So Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Merry Christmas, happy solstice. There's there's a lot of people.
SPEAKER_01You're getting all over my point, right? So the the assumption, I think, is that so many people that are around here, especially in the South, are Christians that if you're gonna establish a religion, establish Christianity, and um that's gonna ruffle a lot fewer feathers. Or if it does ruffle your feathers, then screw you, buddy, because I'm a Christian and this is a Christian nation and we're a Christian town. You know, drive down Highway 82 and see all of those audacious crosses, and that's what that is. Those are that that's what that's for. And I don't agree with that. And I think that if you are gonna get your feathers ruffled about happy Ramadan from the police department, you would get your feathers ruffled about a city-sponsored Christian worship service at Simscott Park or a very large audacious cross proclaiming your city a certain thing. Because constitutionally, you're not supposed to do that. You're supposed to have the freedom to privately worship as you please without the fear of government interference or sponsorship or uh the quelling thereof. And I think that it sends a very unchristian message to and it sends a very unconstitutional message, definitely, and possibly an unchristian message to your citizens and your constituents that don't believe like you that maybe you don't represent them on the same level.
SPEAKER_04I hear you. I uh I may go to that thing. And I hope the Spirit of the Lord shows up and shows out.
SPEAKER_01Well, you you missed it. It was Wednesday, but at any rate, and and look, I'm not I'm not calling into question Gary Jefferson's uh character or his By the way.
SPEAKER_04I saw the flyer was was the d d Demarius DeMarco uh Demario, I think that's a relative, it's a different person than Gary. Okay, good, because Gary already has too many names for this. Gary, Gregory, Jefferson, Antonio II. I was messing that up when he was campaigning.
SPEAKER_01Not touching that with a ten-foot pole and want to go back to the point that I was making. I am not calling into question um Mr. Jefferson's character, his intent. I believe that I believe wholeheartedly that he believed that what he was doing was the right thing for the right reason, at the right time, at the right place, and I'm sure that there are people who got a lot out of that. I've just I'm only cautioning uh to be more careful with the establishment clause of the Constitution, uh, because other people may not see what you s see your see your point the way you're trying to make it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Theocracies generally much respect to Gary Jefferson all the same.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah, for sure. I don't think anybody really disagrees with that, but I mean, hey, theocracies historically have not gone very well.
City County Bills And Jail Fees
SPEAKER_04Well, last on the show, I I just want to say if if you if you don't have a subscription to the paper, get one. But if you don't have a subscription to the paper, definitely pick up Saturday, Sunday, because there is a a huge meeting about to happen. And it's happening. Uh we record on Thursday, it's happening tomorrow, 9 a.m. Joint meeting of the city and the county for the purpose of reconciling each other's overdue bills. Right. And um that there's a lot to say about it, but the crux of the matter, stop me where I miss it, is they were the the county was charging the city like 45 bucks a day or thereabouts, um, kind of a graduated system. But uh the city believes that that fee should only be $25 a day per statute and per an an amended attorney general opinion, big complicated ordeal. And so that's probably the biggest portion of money that they're debating, and then there's a lot of other little things that everybody owes everybody, but the checks haven't been cut.
SPEAKER_01Right. So on the jail thing, the city paid the graduated scale over $25 for a certain amount of time, and they believe that they uh that the overpayment from that time is due back to them, so they haven't been paying at all for the last uh 15 months or so. County is demanding that they pay the statutory rate, which is the $25 a day, for the time that they've missed. And this and the city administration uh don't know about the council. We're gonna find more out about the council's uh position uh Friday morning. But um there's some debate on whether they should do that. Um by uh as as sort of a counter move to that, there are a bunch of interlocal agreements that the county has with the city that the county pays the city for that they've said, okay, well, if you're not paying your jail bill, we're not gonna pay these. And that's like recycling, the airport, a couple other things. Those two, just just cut the checks. City pay the jail bill, county pay the the bills for the other things, and let's get that done.
SPEAKER_04So the law looks pretty crystal clear. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And if you want to if you want to bellyache about overpayment, there's a court system for that, go do it. But don't get delinquent on your own.
SPEAKER_04Maybe so. I don't no offense to lawyers, but I don't want a bunch of tax money going to it when we can have adults just reach an agreement on these matters. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01But there needs to be some there needs to be a little clearer situation on this on this jail thing. But we've talked about that before. There's one issue that we haven't really talked about before, and it's this 191-ish thousand that they uh that the city owes for E911. Um the issue there is that um there was a law, I think, it uh in 2025 that did two things. One, it doubled the the the telecommunications surcharge that would then be collected to pay for E911's services.
SPEAKER_04Well, and was that land lines or did it move it over to sale?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it's everything at this point. What happened is the county and city had a Handshake agreement up till 2025 that said that they would split 50-50 what the tel of what the telecommunications tax didn't cover. So they double the telecommunications tax on the state level. And they say you can't go into a new interlocal agreement until 2027 when we have a better idea of what this higher tax is actually going to cover for your E911 services. And it's looking right now like it's going to cover 80-90% of it, honestly.
SPEAKER_04So it'll be a moot point.
SPEAKER_01It'll be a moot point by the end of 2027.
SPEAKER_04But for now.
SPEAKER_01But for now, the city, according to the county, owes nothing for 2026 because they didn't charge them for 2026. Because the new telecommunications tax, I think, went into effect uh in January maybe of this year. But for 2025, they didn't pay their bill and they owed $191,000 or something like that for their half.
SPEAKER_04They didn't pay anything.
SPEAKER_01They didn't pay anything. Why didn't they pay anything? Because what did I say about their agreement at the beginning?
SPEAKER_02It was a handshake deal.
SPEAKER_01It's a handshake deal. The county never wrote it down. In my opinion, what needs to happen tomorrow's meeting is the city says, here's your jail check. County says, okay, here's your check for all the things that we hadn't paid for, and we're going to call E911 a wash because we didn't write it down. And in 2027, we will write it down.
SPEAKER_04Boy, I don't know about that, Zach, because I don't think the city owes the county that money.
SPEAKER_01Because if the county if the county wanted that money, they would have written the deal down and everybody would have signed it.
SPEAKER_04That one may be a little contentious because 80 to 90 percent of the calls that come into the E911 center are are well within the city.
SPEAKER_01It's 70 percent of the calls, but the city, the citizens of the city are also citizens of the county. And they don't want to get double. That's a valid argument that the citizens of the city, residents of the city are also residents of the county. And I don't think that Jeff Turnage is right in his argument about the about the jail bills. I think that you they need to pay the $25 a day and clear that debt. I absolutely agree with Jeff Turnage on the E911 issue. I don't think they legally can pay that bill because they don't have anything written down that says that they have to. They're not allowed to enter a new agreement until 2027. They don't have an existing agreement. And this you know, goes back to if you go and do pool work for somebody on and it's on a handshake deal and they never wr and you never wrote anything down, there was never anything signed or anything like that on what they were gonna pay you, and then they decide they're not gonna pay you what you thought, or they're not gonna pay you anything at all. And you just shook their hand in the yard. I mean you may have recourse.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I'm gonna send Gary Jefferson to go collect the money.
SPEAKER_01You're gonna send Gary Jefferson to pray with him. Yeah, he would.
SPEAKER_04I'm sure he would. Well, that'll be an interesting uh conversation to be had, and and my hope for that meeting is that they just give a master class and how to stand before the people, let it be open. None of that exists.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, none of this needs to be an executive session. Okay. Open meeting.
SPEAKER_04And and just show the citizenry how it can be done the American way, the jovial way, the business way, without all the drama, because it is the drama that's killing us.
Three Local Stories To Watch
SPEAKER_04All right. Do you have three things to note? I do. Yep.
SPEAKER_01Three things to know. Number one, the Hunt Museum is open again, dedicated to local African American history. The museum's exhibits have sat in storage since a tornado ravaged the Hunt School Building on Northside in February 2019. The museum will open again Friday at the renovated Hunt Intermediate School on 20th Street North as part of the community's Juneteenth celebration. Number two, the inaugural Kids Entrepreneur Convention is set for Saturday at 1205 Military Road. About 25 kids ages 3 to 18 will sell their creations and compete for a $150 grand prize. Desiree Johnson, whose own children run schoolhouse ice pops and lemonade on Military Road, organized the event. And that's you, that's your buddy uh Bobby's wife, I think.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So number three, a car crashed Tuesday in East Columbus killed one man and injured three others. The official story for now is Columbus police officers pulled the vehicle over on a routine traffic stop during which time the car sped off. By the time the officers made it back to their patrol car uh to give chase, according to police chief Joseph Daltrey, the car had crashed into a signpost on Alabama Street in front of Food Giant at such a high speed it broke the vehicle into pieces. Uh Mississippi Highway Patrol is investigating the crash. And Daltrey said he is investigating internally the uh traffic stop itself.
SPEAKER_04Reach out to us, tips at cdispatch.com. You can also follow me on Facebook or X at Dchishishmouble Zero and leave a public comment. Keeping it real here in Catfish Alley Studio and Historic Downtown Columbus, your host has been Zach Player, and I am David Chisholm. Y'all stay friendly out there.
SPEAKER_06I'm just a simple old country boy, but um I think that makes sense. I've stepped out and I've said what I had to say.
SPEAKER_04You've been listening to Between the Headlines with Zach and David. That's what old people do.
SPEAKER_03That is.
