Between the Headlines: Columbus
Between the Headlines dives deep into the stories shaping Columbus and Lowndes County, Mississippi. Hosted by The Commercial Dispatch managing editor Zack Plair and local businessman and commentator David Chism, this show goes beyond the front page to bring you the real conversations behind local politics, policies and people. Zack’s journalistic expertise and David’s insight deliver in-depth analysis, spirited debate, and behind-the-scenes context you won’t get anywhere else. It's honest discussion on what matters.
Between the Headlines: Columbus
Starkville Gives Notice to the LINK PLUS We Talk Downtown Development
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Oktibbeha County has given a two year notice to the Golden Triangle Development LINK. The guys discuss what that means for the region’s economic development recruiter and the strengths of being able to market the entire region.
After that the guys briefly discuss a viral video with local ties. When you have a child of the opposite sex, what bathroom do you take them in? We discuss the video, the fallout and the laws around that decision-making.
Finally, the developer and contractor behind the former First Baptist Church join us in the studio to discuss the apartments that are nearing completion in that building. Chris Chain discusses downtown development and why Columbus is the envy of every other city in the state.
Cold Open And Straight Talk
SPEAKER_00I don't know what he has come up with today to talk about.
SPEAKER_01I'm not asking you to hide anything. You know, you know, put it out there. Let the people see it.
SPEAKER_04I've never not worked in a hospital working department.
SPEAKER_01You can't argue with anybody when they're putting facts in your face. Zach. That's a hard question. I have no answer for it. From the opinion page of the Commercial Dispatch.
Headlines Tease And Guest Preview
SPEAKER_01This is Between the Headlines.
SPEAKER_08This week on Between the Headlines, by a vote of 4 to 1, Octopiaw County has started the process of potentially withdrawing from the link. We'll talk about that. Also, do you have a son or daughter of the opposite sex and you wonder about which restroom to go to? Well, there's been a stink on the internet, and we'll dive headlong into that. Also in the studio today, Mr. Vince Ripisarda along with Mr. Chris Chain to talk about some fun things downtown. But first, retirement looks different for everyone, so your plan should be built around you. For over 40 years, Financial Concepts has helped people create retirement strategies that fit their lives. Our team in Columbus takes the time to understand your goals and build a plan that works for you. Wherever you are in your journey, we're ready to help. We plan retirement. Financial Concepts is a registered investment advisor. This episode of Between the Headlines is brought to you by Bank First, a bank headquartered right here in Columbus, Mississippi. That means your banking decisions aren't made hundreds of miles away by someone who doesn't know you. They're made here locally by bankers who know your name and care about the community. At Bank First, we're more than bankers. We're your neighbors. Whether we're cheering in the stands, catching up at a local pancake breakfast, or celebrating milestones across our community, we're part of the moments that matter most. Stop by your local Bank First branch or visit BankfirstFS.com to learn more. Bank First is a member FDIC and Equal Housing lender, Bank NMLS 454063.
Sponsors And Downtown Weather
SPEAKER_08Well, thanks for being with us here on a muggy, cloudy, but beautiful otherwise day here in Catfish Alley in historic downtown Columbus. Zach, on the way here, I took an alternate route because US 82 was closed, and I took Alabama Street here. And I just need to say, y'all, your grass has gone to seed all the way from Taco Bell to downtown. Do we have any weed eaters at all in the city of Columbus? I mean, come on. Call Casey Bush. All right. Maybe so. Maybe so.
Octibbeha County Starts Link Exit
SPEAKER_08But top headline today, as you've probably heard by now, by a vote of four to one, the Octibihaw County Board of Supervisors has in essence filed for divorce with the link. That's not to say for sure that it'll happen, but um it looks like it could happen. Uh what is the nuts and bolts of that meeting and and what do we know?
SPEAKER_05Okay, so what we know is that the supervisor so the link contracts with the three counties in the Golden Triangle. So they don't they contract with Lowndes, Octaviha, Clay. Um the cities, uh Columbus, Startville, West Point, join uh the link essentially through their respective counties.
SPEAKER_08So if the county withdraws, that means the city of Startville also withdraws.
SPEAKER_05I mean, essentially, yes. Uh, but in in this particular case, you know, Octabo County uh encompasses, you know, the city of Startville as part of this. Uh OCEDA, which is their economic development uh uh agency, uh joins in with this. Greater Startville Development Partnership joins in with this. So uh what they're saying is in two years, we all want to either get out, renegotiate, or at least have an opportunity to do one of those things. Uh because and and what they're citing is that they're not happy with the turnover that has been uh going on at the link, especially at the top.
SPEAKER_08The staff turnover.
SPEAKER_05So you've got Joe Max getting uh the boot uh after 20 years, and we're not gonna rehash all of that. But then you had Vasey come in, he's there for six minutes, and then he's gone. And then you uh now we have Merrill Fisakerly as the CEO there. And you know, Lynn Sproul, the mayor of Startville, was uh pretty pointed uh when Merrill got hired, and uh Vasey was kind of uh uh he left under the terms that he left under, whatever those were.
SPEAKER_08Well, as we know, Lynn Sproul was not super keen on Joe Max going out the door. Right. And and it's also fair to say she was like, well, what what in the hell with Vasey here? Why is he gone so quick that doesn't make sense to me? Right.
SPEAKER_05So with all of those things, um and I mean honestly, I know that the supervisors made the vote, but Lynn's kind of been the the the lead voice over there in dissatisfaction with kind of what's going on with the link or uh dissatisfaction may be too strong of a word, definitely trepidation. And I think that that's what you're seeing here is all right, well, our contract, uh the county's contract with the link requires us to give two years' notice if we want to renegotiate or get out. So let's go ahead and do that, and then that way come June of 2028 or July of 2028, we can we can make some hard decisions if we have to, and we won't be breaching any of the terms of the contract that we have. Now, looming in the weeds is Joe Max is still here. He's got a consulting firm. He can swoop in and take Arctibaha County. They're gonna oh the link will be openly competing with Joe Max Higgins for Arctibahaw County's business in June of 2028, ostensibly. And um that that I think is kind of the the the downstream showdown that's coming.
SPEAKER_08You say that, but but didn't Joe Max take up a gig in January up there in Sanatobia? Like, isn't he working to redevelop Tate County and create this uh fiefdom between Memphis and Oxford?
SPEAKER_05Well, I mean you you can do several things at once. You don't think Joe Max is a multitasker?
SPEAKER_08I I think he is, but I mean, the name of his business, which by the way, has no presence on the internet. I Googled it. The name of his business is two equals last.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Okay. Starkville's gonna be number two. Eric go, they're gonna be last. You really think he's gonna be interested in coming back to the Golden Triangle?
SPEAKER_05I'm gonna do you one better than that. Uh Octobaugh County is going to be third. Third. Um I mean, Clay County already has a a greater industrial presence than Octaw. Octavaugh County on the industrial recruitment side is already the caboose in the Golden Triangle. Um they serve a different purpose. There's a okay, so the Golden Triangle as one organism, if you're recruiting an industry in, your infrastructure is in lounge, secondarily maybe in clay. You've got a little bit of that in Octavial, but but but definitely third in the Golden Triangle. You've got other assets and other opportunities in Startville and Octabaha County that a place like the Link can recruit someone to the entire region, and the entire region can benefit from it. You've got retail opportunities in Startville, you've got housing opportunities in Startville. Uh Joe Max Higgins uh uh for years talked about, you know, these these CEOs are coming, they're their their plants gonna be in Lynds County at the industrial park, uh, but those bigwigs are gonna be living in Starville. I was having a conversation with somebody yesterday who's like, you know, if Octobah County goes through with this, um the link need not be telling people to move to Starville. And so I and to your point, David, you know, Joe Max Higgins comes in and takes Octibahaw County as a client. He's got him as an individual client where he's got to compete with the link in lounge and clay. I don't think that he can get I mean he wasn't getting but mid-major industrial victories to Octaviha County with the link behind him. He's not gonna be able to do any better than that, certainly with the link against him.
SPEAKER_08Sure. And you know, I'm not so sure they all want to move to Starkville. I mean, we've got uh things developing in Burns Bottom here. We've got a guest on the show here in a little bit. We'll talk about opportunities to live actually in an old First Baptist church. I mean, there are places here, Caledonia. I'm not so sure I believe that narrative that everybody loves.
SPEAKER_05Well, uh, you know what, you want to know what the pound of flesh would be? And this is a hot take. Yeah, and this is what I'm gonna hear from Lynn later. Uh I have great respect for Mayor Spruell and I too and I know she's a listener and I appreciate that. For sure. And uh uh we have great conversations. Um and I'm sure we will about this, but uh if I were the link, if I were Merrill, I'd say, okay. You want to go? Let's spend the next instead of spending the next year or two years sucking up to Octobaha County and Startville, please don't leave, please don't leave, please don't leave. I I don't know if I wouldn't create a little example of what a post-link world would look like for Octobahawk County. What if we start instead of focusing on getting people to move to Startville and uh getting things in the North Star? Why don't we start why don't we start um incentivizing development in Caledonia? Why don't we start um really pushing Burns bottom? Why don't we start really getting into Clay County? New How and New Yeah. Why why don't we start really showing, okay, well, if they're leaving or if they want to renegotiate or all of this, then we just out of self-preservation need to start redirecting our vision.
SPEAKER_08Advertise for what we've got and right here at the end.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, th because long term we've got to know. Uh past two years, we've got to have a long-term plan. In past two years, we know who our clients are gonna be. So pat so in the next two years, let's try to let let's try to increase the scaffolding there. And I know that's a high take. But and I know that the link probably isn't gonna go that route, but it would be very tempting to do that if I were Merrill right now, or if I were that link board, or if I were that link trust.
SPEAKER_08Very tempting. I'll tell you this. Um when a contract is not renewed, it it's kind of like a head coach, um, we're not gonna renew your contact. So you better take us to a good bowl game, not the go daddy bowl. You better do some winning. All right, right. So the challenge has been put forth. Right. That's what I think Octavia Hall has done, but I think they've missed the mark. I'm seeing a pattern here. Okay. They played dirty over there, right? I I'm just gonna say it. All right, they were wanting to take our MSMS from us. Yeah, I'm gonna go into that. I am. And and they are cocky enough to believe that they can outdo us and they think that they can do their industrial development in a local effort, not a regional effort. But I'm gonna say that.
SPEAKER_04That's just not realistic.
SPEAKER_08Maybe so. What's gonna happen when they start losing ball games? What's gonna happen when the fan base, our SEC faithful, get fed up with NIL, which they already are, fed up with the portal, and Startville starts to take a turn in a different direction. Okay, they've got stadiums, they've got the university, they've got college kids. It's a fun town. I love Startville. We've got an airport, one that's big enough to house more than a crop duster. We've got railroads, we've got hard workers, we've got a river, we've got ports. Okay. They might want to rethink this because I don't think that long term they can do it without it being a regional effort.
SPEAKER_05Right. And and I agree with you wholeheartedly. And to your using your analogy before we move on to the next topic, you know, okay, yeah, they've given notice. They've said, okay, uh, you're on a short contract right now, you're on a short leash. We we need to we need to make the playoffs. I think the link looks at Startville Knoctoball Canyon and says, Don, we're gonna make the playoffs. But y'all are gonna sit on the bench and watch us make it without you.
SPEAKER_08And and I'll tell you, uh, I think Fisakerly has a great opportunity here. I think back to what Ian Vasey said when he was on our program. He said, the data, getting the data out there in a way so that the big corporations can find us, they can find our demographics, they can find our setup, our unique setup that we have here, and we're gonna land the big one. I've just got that gut feeling that something really cool is gonna end up out there at Cinco. And then out there in Startville, you're gonna get that crappy data center, and it's gonna be chaos, and good luck with it. Oh Lord, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna touch that. Well, maybe it's okay. Maybe it'll be a dollar general redistribution center, okay?
SPEAKER_05That crypto mining thing that they're talking about at Startville is the same thing that they've got over here in Columbus already. But listen, um and I want to be fair, just very quickly, I want to be fair to Lynn and Ike Tabah County because uh they're doing this because of trepidation, they're doing this because of upheaval, they're doing this because they view a lack of stability at the link. And I think that part of that part of this is a challenge for the link to get stable and to show that it is stable. And I think that that is in in so much as that is concerned, in so much as that is the messaging, I think that's fair. I do. Um but I I believe the link can show that stability. And and I and if that and again, if that's what Starp was doing, or they're just trying to position themselves as just in case this thing goes belly up, we we we want to have an out. Yeah, I get it. I get it, and I get their trepidation, and I understand uh I understand Lynn's uh narrative in this in particular. However, um Arc Tiball County and Startville are the ones that lose if they leave the link. That's my only point.
SPEAKER_08And I tell you, to your point, and I'll leave it alone, stability, in my opinion, is quite simply this. We can get you power, we can get you water, we can get you rails and extra roadways, whatever you need, we'll make it happen. Come to Lowndes County. That's all I've got to say about that.
Viral Restroom Video And Parenting
SPEAKER_08All right, next on the agenda is um a viral video that um I saw actually on the CBS Evening News, and and there was this um well, I do we need to go through the video? Most of our listeners have probably seen it, but but let me give you the bare bones of it. There was a dad who brought two of his daughters into a gas station and they went into uh the women's restroom because it was presumably cleaner, and that's just where the girls were comfortable going. He takes them in there, and there's this other guy that comes in. Why are you in here? Calls the cops, and the guy's staying calm. He's washing his daughter's hands, and he tries to de-escalate the situation, and it turns into an absolute stink and a debate all over the realms of social media, what should dads and moms for that matter do in such situations. Fast forward a little bit after about five plus million views, uh, the guy who called the cops uh happened to be a stark villain and happened to um perceivably lose his job over the ordeal, at least that gig. And um and here we are talking about it today. What what did I get wrong with that zip?
SPEAKER_05I mean, that's as far as I know, that that's that's my understanding. I'm gonna be honest with you, and this is um um uh let me be honest with you. I did not watch the video. Read about the video, saw the newscasts about the video. Reason I didn't watch the video is because um iPhones cost a lot of money and I'm not available for an upgrade. And I didn't need that thing to be in three pieces after I threw it up against a brick wall.
SPEAKER_08This is a um So you you approached that thinking you were gonna get quite angry at this fella.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Not at the dad, no. At the antagonist. Uh I was a single parent with custody of a very young daughter for three and a half years, and uh Zaley, who's gonna be a senior in high school next year. She during this era of my life, she was two, three, four, and turned five. Um we were in public places. I had to take her to bathrooms and McDonald's, I had to take her in bathrooms at parks, I had to take her in bathrooms at different other places. Um and uh you know, I went to the men's. I th the the judgment call of going to the win of of the adult male going into the women's, I you know that's I know it's not easy to call. That's not one I ever made, but I'm not gonna judge him, whatever. Um the uh I'm telling you the amount of anxiety that goes into that decision when you know that some guy like this could be in that place anytime. I've I never did get that kind of treatment, but I did get, you know, ugly looks and things of that nature. Um there's a lot of anxiety that goes with that. That is not a pleasant experience, that is not something that that that and people just don't understand. People don't understand, and and the thing about it is that pe you're right. People don't understand. People they're making decisions, they're making decisions with their kids, they're trying to make the best decisions that they can in the moment. And whether you're a single parent or you just happen to be out with your daughters or a mother out with your young sons or whatever. You're trying to get the thing done. And the last thing you need is somebody that doesn't know what the hell they're talking about, being an asshole. And and and and and shame on that guy, and shame on anybody who who acts that way toward people. And I'm telling you, I really thought that the reaction to that was going to be I I really thought the reaction to that video or the reaction of that that that information was gonna skew more toward that dad. Toward being friendly to the I've called him the antagonist, but I I figured it was there was gonna be a lot more uh a lot more friendly chatter toward that guy and standing up for whatever in the hell. But um I was pleasantly surprised that people stuck up for that dad. And it and it um it made me believe that we maybe live in a little bit better, a little bit nicer place than I thought when I was having to do that.
SPEAKER_08Well, I mean, yeah, I I gathered the same thing. It's like the general public uh doesn't have a problem with a a a single dad or single mom that that's making these hard decisions um in good faith, as you might say, just trying to uh take care of business, shall we say. They have a problem with perfs, okay, and they have a problem with somebody that might be in there for precarious reasons, right? And so, I mean, so a lot of people are tuning in, they're wondering, okay, what what is the appropriate thing to do in this situation? The dispatch didn't ask the dispatch article, right? And and the law says that it's up to the private business. Now, if you're at a college and you know your daughter's over the age of 12, then that's a problem. But most of the time we're talking about gas stations here. If you've got a young son, sometimes the logistics Are a little bit easier to get taken care of if it's out in the country. Right. Well, that said, but it's up to the business owner, and I don't think they generally care. They don't. They don't. And so um all in all, um I think both sides of the political spectrum are guilty of being um social warriors about things that are uh sometimes media created, sometimes uh uh uh Facebook created or ex created, things like that. And so uh yeah, just at the end of the day, don't be an ass. Be a good parent and be an understanding person. Right.
SPEAKER_05And mind your own business unless you see something nefarious. Yeah, I don't assume that something is nefarious when you don't have any evidence other than your own biases.
SPEAKER_08And I expect the poor chap that that um ended up being on the um the ugly end of this deal probably will follow that very advice.
Turning A Historic Church Into Apartments
SPEAKER_08All right, we are pleased to have in the studio today Mr. Vince Ripisarta, who is the who is the owner and developer of 7th Street Center, formerly known as the First Baptist Church, a great historical building. Also in here today, we have Mr. Chris Chain, who's been working alongside him to get that thing looking great. Uh pleased to have both of you guys here with us today. Uh what's the update, fellas?
SPEAKER_07Well, glad to join you. Thanks. Thanks for the invite. Um right now we are uh we're in the finishing stages of the uh this phase one is is 15 apartments, modern, uh they're all one-bedroom apartments. Um they're uh beautiful apartments, nine-foot ceilings. The building's been totally remodeled on the interior. Uh yeah, nine-foot ceilings.
SPEAKER_08Yes. So were these like formerly Sunday school classes?
SPEAKER_07Exactly. It's the former preschool uh classrooms at the at the uh at the building. There were 16 of them actually. We converted uh to 15 open floor plan, one bedroom apartments. There'll be a gym in in on the in the same building. Um right now we've got can we're painting cabinets are going in, so I I maybe Chris can answer when they'll be completed. We're hoping in the next four to six weeks. Um as I said, they're they're uh all utilities included. I had fiber installed, so it's high-speed internet, touchless entry to the building. We went with the modern technology on on the uh door locks and everything else in the building. Um pretty excited. It's it's been uh it's been uh a work, you know. It's been a project of mine. I bought that complex three years ago and really haven't done a whole lot with it. Um I had plans for this. So we we've got this is phase one. We're already planning out phase two and phase three of the complex. So there's more to come. Um there'll be a great outdoor area. We're putting in a pickleball court where the uh we just donated the old uh playground equipment to one of the local churches, so they're utilizing that. Um pickleball courts going in there, there'll be outdoor, you know, uh seating areas, barbecue areas. Um so yeah, it's pretty exciting. It's it's uh as you know, it's right downtown. It's within walking distance of uh all the shops and restaurants that downtown Columbus has to offer. So yeah, it's it's pretty exciting. I've uh I've uh been wanting to do this for the last few years and um you know talked to several contractors around town and and I've known Chris for years. Um I picked Chris, as I said, he's he's knows renovations of historic buildings and he kind of keeps me on check when I want to do something that I shouldn't do.
SPEAKER_05Well now these apartments are uh if I recall, they're they're gonna be designed more for your sort of business people.
SPEAKER_07You know, we're we're I uh I've geared towards corporate for for the last 15 years on a lot of my uh properties. And uh as I said, we're we're offering furnished or unfurnished. So it's uh it it'll be nice. It'll it's uh it'll be a mix.
SPEAKER_05Well now looking at and and this is a question for uh uh both of you, either one of you, looking at a building like uh a beautiful building, First Baptist Church, uh historic building, and trying to reimagine that as something other than what it is while following all of the rules. I guess it takes a certain kind of mindset, a certain kind of skill set to to to look at that as an opportunity instead of uh uh uh an albatrol.
SPEAKER_07From the beginning, I mean we you know, we opened up two event centers within the building to help support it. Uh to you know, you've gotta you've gotta pay the bills. So, you know, we've got several uh Mississippi Life University has their classes in there right now. They take up the whole first floor of one of the buildings. Uh Rita Felton's got her offices in there. So we've got some uh some tenants. You know, when I when I purchased the building, I had told the uh the congregation that I would keep the sanctuary intact and as is, and that's my plan. It it it you know that sanctuary is 10,000 square feet. We we do rent it out for for events and uh funerals, weddings. Uh there's been several uh concerts there. Um but to maintain that building and keep it intact, I've got uh you know, got to develop some other parts of the building. So it's it's uh uh as I was saying earlier, Chris keeps being checked. There's you know, I want to put windows here, put windows there. You can't do certain things, but uh that's why I teamed up with Chris. He's he's he knows what he's doing on the historical end.
SPEAKER_08Um on that, is is the pipe organ, the projector, and and the baptistry, what all is still intact in there? Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_07It's all intact. I've actually got the pipe organ. I one day I'd like to get that hooked back, tied back into the system and rework that system. I got a quote, it's it's it's not cheap to do. The projector's there, it's in operation, but the uh the pipe organ, I'd love I've got it stored right now. They they uh did give that to me when I purchased the building.
SPEAKER_05Well, back to the original question about the and and you're heavily invested, uh Chris, in these historic renovations, uh specifically downtown uh Columbus. So I mean, what drives that? How do you how do you get that vision when you're looking at these when you're looking at these buildings?
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell Well, I started my company in 1996 after I lost the mayor's race, uh, the the primary to George Wade. And so I decided, well, if I'm not gonna be the mayor, I'm gonna go ahead and and start doing uh renovations in Mississippi. And it I wanted to create a one-stop shop where you could come and I could give you uh consulting advice, I could help you with the tax credit, I could guide that part of it. And that's a big part of uh any renovation uh because uh they do offer a 20 and twenty percent federal and a twenty-five percent state tax uh tax credit. Now, if you don't know what a tax credit is, you go under your Schedule C, under your tax return, and it says any other credits, and that's how you apply it to get a deduction in the taxes that you owe. Okay, so it's very important, and those tax credits are sellable too to banks to for equity and things like that. So it's very that's a very important part. That's what we're doing, and we're doing a phase tax credit on it. This is the miracle building in the back or the the Woodson building in the back, and so that's our first phase of it, and then we're gonna move to the the main building, uh, and then we'll uh move back to the probably the uh the the choir room and choir building back there. So this is like a three-phase project, and you have to phase it that way with the tax credit. But you your original question was how do you come up with this idea? Okay, so uh it was about uh five years ago that the church, and I that is my church, and they they came to me and they said, Chris, can you help us with this? We want to move up to uh uh you know, on Blue Cut. We have they already had a building up there already built and everything. I said, Yeah, I'll help you with it. I wasn't really wanting them to leave the old church myself. There were two factions in there, some that wanted it and some that didn't, you know, because once you leave something like that, what do you do with it? You know, that's the next thing. But they asked me if I could come up with uh a plan for the building. And so I did for them. And the plan, I had three options. I came up with three options of that building, which was uh elderly housing and or uh different uh or apartment type stuff. And it's all got to be a mixed type use type uh application because if you don't have that income coming over here from this, income coming from this, income coming from this, it's just not gonna pay the bills. And so um so I came up with three different ideas for that and I presented it to the church, and then after that I really didn't hear much from them. They ended up moving, and then Vince came along and he bought the building, and I said, Well, you need to look at my study that I have here that I did, and it took it took me a couple months to really put it together, and we did a full plan on it, a full plan of what would be done on the renovations and everything. All of that stuff would be in tune with archives and history to make sure that we're doing the uh we're we're we're gonna get the tax credit on it because it that's just an important part of it. And so um Vince came along and actually we're fulfilling a lot of what is in that uh study that I did, you know, five years ago, it's it's it's come to fruition. That's about what happens on historic properties. It takes a while to get into it, motivated, and get the things moving.
SPEAKER_05Well, I mean, is the juice worth the squeeze oftentimes with archives and history and those things that those boxes that you have to check?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, a lot of people think that it's not, but I think it is. I think you have to have it. I think it's it's it's a i i it's uh uh a part of it that if you don't have, you're you're losing. So and it's not that hard. I mean, um dealing with Mississippi Archives and history is not that bad. I mean, I I've been to the Columbus uh preservation meeting several times on things and I'm listening to them and and and you know um d most of the time when I go in there they do not question what I have because it's already been approved by the National Park Service. So what are they gonna say? I mean, you know what I mean? I mean, uh nothing really supersedes the Park Service if they if they bless it with it. So all this has been blessed by the Park Service already. And it's just it it it's like Vince said, Well, I want to do this. Well, wait a minute, Vince, let's back up. Here, if we do this, this may do something to what we're we don't want to mess up over here. So, you know, so it it when you're doing a project, you have to keep checks on that, you know. If you've sent something in to them, told them what you're gonna do, and showed them on a plan what you're gonna do, at the end of it, it's gotta be just like that when you get through. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Well, d uh and again, you're heavily invested downtown in several properties. Um we were talking a little bit about this you know before off mic, but what do you see as as as someone who is an investor downtown what does the downtown need need yet? Well, like what's it doing right uh and what or what's being done right there and what does what needs to happen to make it really thrive to its highest potential in your I think we're on a path to do that for the highest potential.
SPEAKER_02And the reason I say that is is that our retail has come up to almost match our upstairs. Really? Okay, the highest the highest and best use of these buildings was mixed use. And that's the reason you have 220 units downtown, apartment units in all these buildings. And that's what I started doing. I put the first one in besides what uh uh Frank Imes had bought um a building that already had one in and that uh in downtown, but you had to go in front of the city council and the mayor to get a permitted use because it was zoned, see, to commercial, and you you couldn't do the the residential. After years of going through permitted uses, we finally they finally said, well, we're we're we're rubber stamping these things to go through there, you know. And here is a funny story, real funny. The four first city council I went to on this downtown here, the pack the I got there a little bit late walking in, and the whole room was packed. I couldn't even get a you know a chair and and because it wasn't in the big room. They didn't have the big room at that time. They had the small, I don't know if you remember the small uh room. And there were people I was looking around and everybody protested me putting in an apartment. And you know, I just said, You're gonna create a parking problem. And I said, Yeah, what's wrong with that? I think that's a good thing. Let's create a parking project. Well, you're you're gonna there's gonna be crime downtown. And I said, No, there's gonna be lights on everywhere upstairs. There can people are gonna be walking around. There's gonna be less crime. You know, everything that was said, and so they they passed it for me, that first apartment. That was a big struggle to get that. Once that happened, we were able to get away from permitted use and just go through the building department and do what we needed to do and the preservation department to show what we're doing outside. It worked really well. And it was so funny. I was downtown, you know, I walked downtown and these uh these residents that I mean the the uh business people after we did that, a couple of years later we were putting in apartment, but you know, it may have been five years later, but I no telling how many of those retail establishments I'd go by or whatever, they'd they'd come out and they'd shake my hand and say, I sure do appreciate you doing these apartments, you know. And you know it gives a character to the downtown. Oh yeah, yeah. And so, you know, uh for years we were at fifty cents a foot on the bottom. But when we did these apartments, we were able to get a dollar a foot. Okay, so the property upstairs was worth more than the bot than the downstairs, you know. But when you first came into when I first came back into Columbus, there was nothing upstairs. It was all downstairs.
SPEAKER_08But people like to be people watchers, they like to sit up there and look out the windows, right?
SPEAKER_05That's right. Bill Strauss on his balcony with his cameras.
SPEAKER_07I sit on my balcony at the Southern every morning, directly across from the dispatch, and they moved the bill every morning.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that's the way it was. I mean, if you look at the old photographs, look at the people that were down, and you know, when we created the Market Street Festival in '96, you know, uh the the main thing that I want to do is make sure we got a picture from the top of the Mississippi uh bank there that showed the old picture looking down at the uh all the old cars and stuff. And we create I got uh Peter's dad and Bernie came up there and we took that picture to kind of recreate that old picture of everybody being downtown, all the hustle and bustle and everything that was downtown at that time. So it's a work in progress, but I can tell you this we lead the state in this type of development. I'm all over the state. I'm uh you know, I've I've redeveloped downtown Pascagoula. I've done a lot we went to Meridian and I uh started that trend of redeveloping Meridian. Uh had uh had uh a lot of help from uh his uncle and and and some others that wanted to do that. Um every town wants that what we have because we have created a a full full uh you know 24-hour type uh downtown that is good. And it looks like all of our stores are are pretty much full. You know, we're getting more restaurants down here, and you know, if you look at what's happening, and I'm on the CRA board, and if you look at what's fixing to happen down here on the down at the Burns bottom, that's all gonna just be a monster that comes in and helps our town, I tell you. And I'm excited about what's happening down there. So we're not gonna be the town that's vacated on Saturday and Sunday. No, no, we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna thrive, I think. And it it's a lot of hard work, and you know, we've that's the reason we created Market Street Festival, because people won't come downtown unless you push them down to come downtown, you know. But once they come downtown and they see all the what's down here, because you know, they may not have come down in three or four years. Well, you've missed a lot of things that's happening in three or four years. So the festival kind of gets everybody downtown, you know, for a day and they see all the activities and all the stores and all the apartments and stuff, you know. And we we even did like during the pilgrimage, did apartment tours for a couple of years there. And that was in that was fun because uh just normal residents want to say, hey, what is it like living downtown, you know? So it's awareness, you know, and this podcast gives more awareness to it. But uh we have a hustle and bustle downtown. Let me tell you, you go to other downtowns and stuff, that they would die to have what we have here. And I think we overlook that a little bit at being here, you know, and and seeing it every day, but you go to other towns, you don't see this, you know. And so we're we're very fortunate, and I'm very glad to be a part of that, and I have been for the last 30 years, you know.
Downtown Growth And The Franklin Challenge
SPEAKER_05Well, Vince, there's a question I want to ask you. You may not want to answer. Your name is floated anytime the word Franklin comes up. So are you looking at that project? Franklin the old school?
SPEAKER_07I've looked at it. I think it's uh an awesome property. There's a lot of potential. Um I've looked at it. Okay. That that's uh Chris and I have both looked at it. Um it's a great property, you know. Someone needs to someone needs to do something with it. I would I would love to be that person. Um it it can't just sit like it is for years. You know, that same thing like the the first Baptist church I purchased, you know, what would have happened to that had it sat for years? A lot of a lot of the people I've talked to were you know, there were big as Chris said, there's mixed feelings about that building and and you know the sale of it. But that aside, the the Franklin building is another example of developing downtown. You know, there's a lot of property there. That building is 63,000 square feet. The church is 80 the Seventh Street Center is 81,000 square feet. But you know, there's a lot of potential there. There's a lot of uh opportunity to add a lot of you know mixed use to downtown. So Well, what are the specific challenges with that building?
SPEAKER_02First of all, 16 section land, it's not a hundred-year lease. A 99 renewable lease, it's not that. So you're that's the biggest problem, I think, with that.
SPEAKER_05So kind of go into that a little bit and the mechanics of of how that works.
SPEAKER_02We're the only town in the world that since owns 16-section land. It's usually land that's out in the county somewhere that it contributes to the school. And back years ago, we we had to uh had a lawsuit against us, and they were trying to change that, okay. Well, we're gonna change your property values and you're gonna have to pay more to the Secretary of State. Well, we beat them in court on that, and here's here's what would have happened, okay? The bank, any one of those banks down there would pay twenty thousand dollars for the year on taxes where they're paying a dollar.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02Okay. And you may say, Well, that's not right. Well, we're still paying taxes, right? And we're still paying school taxes, okay? So it's not like we're cheating somebody out of anything there. But if we if it would have gotten changed and we didn't win the lawsuit uh then uh uh w this we'd have a ghost town here. I mean it people would abandon their properties. They wouldn't be able to pay the ta the the taxes that the Secretary State. And that's not what the school tax was all about. It was supposed to be in rural areas. Well we're the only one that's owned 16 sections of land, only town in the state of Mississippi that's owned. But if it but it when Franklin sells it's gonna be it's gonna probably be a 45 year lease but you know I did a property in um in the French quarter on Dumain and Dauphin um and uh it was the old school old um um nuns convent and it was the old Catholic school and it's right behind the cathedral like two blocks off the back of the cathedral and um we I did that property and it's it was owned by the Archdiocese. Well we didn't buy that property we just leased it from them for 45 years and then leased it again for 45 years. Okay so we put five million dollars in a property that we didn't own but we leased it but we figured that would within the 95 years we would get our money out of the property or we'd go forward with it again with them. And they're willing to keep going forward but they were not going to sell property the the Catholics the uh they do not sell their property they they hold on to it. Franklin's going to be plagued by this in some way but there's ways to do this. You can and you can do tax credits on long-term leases too. It doesn't have to be that you own the property so there's ways to do that too. I've done uh two schools Pascuula High School and I did the uh Hattersburg High School okay and uh Hattiesburg High School is 83,000 square feet and it had eighty eighty units in it I think and then it has the kitchen and all that stuff. And uh it's neat because the old hallways are kept the lockers are kept it looks like a school but it's a residential place now you know and if you hadn't been to any one to either one of those those are nice examples of schools that have been redeveloped. And so you got Lee High here where Scott did that you know Scott Berry did that and uh you know um and so you know that that seems to be the trend on schools to do that too along with churches making them a multi-purpose multi-use type application so if you're a developer you look at every one of those ideas and try to incorporate them in there in a way that's going to bring in the income that you need to pay uh the to pay the taxes good thing about too is you can get the tax deferments to the city of Columbus and and you know that uh sometimes I hear that the city uh the the council growls at some of that stuff you know but let me tell you that is a that is a incentive that does not need to be growled at it we need to embrace that and and you know seven years go by no time and you're back to like boom hitting the hitting it really hard and getting that money with the city would be getting that money so and that building isn't sitting there empty. That's right and it isn't sitting there empty and you've given it a chance because if you hold on to it for seven years you're giving it a chance to go for 40 years because you've hit the hardest part of what you do in a note or something like that when you're developing. Okay that has a chance to go for a long time.
SPEAKER_07And a perfect example of Seventh Street Center it hadn't paid tax you know the church didn't pay tax on that building for a hundred years. Well all of a sudden I've got to pay tax on it.
SPEAKER_02So you know developments like this they they help everybody Most of these buildings you know like the stone did the same thing I got them the tax uh deferments on it and we did the tax credits and stuff it all of that is a piece of putting the development together that works. Without any of those pieces it's going to hurt the project. Okay so uh embrace that we're doing that and really once you do that like I said I mean how long did this building down here stay vacant on fifth you know with uh uh like uh 10 million uh bats in it you know I mean somebody had to take the the leap of faith and get out there and do do the building Vince is like me he he sees something a lot of people can't see the vision on these things there's I remember way back and you know Cal Howard said I want one of those buildings and I said okay Cal come up here let me show you he said here's what here's what I'm gonna do and here's what I'm gonna do and he said I just can't see it you know I just can't take it in you know but then when you really then when they see it they go gosh I just couldn't see this you know so I have a knack for going in and looking at something and saying I think we can do this this this and this and move right along Vince is like that too as a developer. He he has that knack where he knows a lot about it and he knows the the construction part of it and how we can make it work and stuff like that. Sometimes I do have to pull the reins and back a little bit but you know it's it's all good. We're we're working toward a successful project and that's what both of us are doing.
SPEAKER_05Was there anything either one of you want to add?
SPEAKER_02Well I I appreciate y'all doing this and having a podcast on some of this stuff because it really informs people that there are still investments downtown that are that are wide open to do things with, you know, and um you know but we have even empty lots that you know that aren't going to have tax credits on them that I think you know hotel could go in there. I've done a plan on this lot over here okay here's what you could do here's the space here's that type of thing and quickly uh come up with a plan that you know show to investors and say I think we can make this work you know uh but appreciate y'all doing this and any information that gets out to the public to help them you know say hey I want to come invest in in downtown it looks like a good place to be and that's what we want we want more investment.
SPEAKER_08That's the reason we're doing this down here on on the Burns Bottom you know there's there's already 17 or 18 lots down there that are sold and people are looking at that and now they're they've already done they're doing the dirt work and we're moving forward you know well Chris it's been fascinating to hear your perspective on this our program is certainly pro-Columbus uh pro-development generally speaking and pro-beautification and I'm glad that you and Mr. Rapasarta have been in here to keep us up to date about that and I'm also glad that y'all have worked together to keep these said properties from turning into beer joints and the like and uh nothing wrong with a beer joint dynamic well it depends on what type you never know. So uh but hey it's got character it's gonna be different and I look forward to seeing what happens with it. Good luck to both of you
Three Things To Know And How To Reach Us
SPEAKER_08fellas.
SPEAKER_05Appreciate it thank you guys thank you okay Zach give me three things to know so there are going to be four performances at the Lyceum at Lee for the uh Golden Triangle Theaters uh Greece Junior I guess it would be it's their uh it's their youth camp they've got performances at 7 p.m Friday 2.30 uh p.m saturday and uh 7 p.m saturday and 2 30 p.m sunday so uh go get your tickets for Greece by the Golden Triangle Theater retired circuit judge Lee Coleman of West Point died May 27th as we reported in the paper this week he was 76 his law career spanned 50 years including more than a decade uh as a judge in the 16th circuit the Riverwalk Arboretum is uh open and labeled and has a new sign. They installed the sign at the uh at mile zero marker of the Riverwalk this week and they have already labeled uh put 30 labels on trees that are uh native species along the way with plans to put more labels out and the effort uh which was brought brought forth by the tree board uh is for uh education and uh preservation efforts for our native tree species down at the Riverwalk.
SPEAKER_08That's absolutely fantastic and with the rain clearing out friendly city go ahead take a walk check out what's growing out there I'm sure those trees have been well watered and are looking great and y'all enjoy. Reach out to us tips at cdispatch.com you can also follow me on Facebook or ex at the chishm and leave a public comment. Keeping it real here in Catfish Alley Studio and Historic Downtown Columbus, your host has been Zach Player and I am David Chisholm y'all stay friendly out there.
SPEAKER_01I'm just a simple old country boy but um I I think that makes sense I've stepped out and I've said what I had to say.
SPEAKER_08You've been listening to Between the headlines with Zach and David.
SPEAKER_09That's what old people do this is Peter Imes, publisher of The Dispatch.
Publisher Note On News And Opinion
SPEAKER_00One of our hosts of Between the headlines is the managing editor of our newsroom typically we try to keep news and opinion separate but reporters have a unique insight into the workings of local government and their analysis can be helpful for readers and listeners. The dispatch remains committed to journalistic integrity and our reporting will always reflect that.
