Flights, Fights and the Future of the LINK

This week on Between the Headlines, Zack and David return to Catfish Alley Studio with a full slate of City Hall drama, airport questions and regional economic development talk.

The episode opens with the latest from Columbus City Hall, where Mayor Stephen Jones raised the idea of allowing city officials to fly for free on empty seats tied to the Golden Triangle Regional Airport’s Dallas flight subsidy. Zack explains the background of the airport subsidy request, while the hosts debate the optics, logistics and transparency concerns surrounding the mayor’s proposal. The conversation also turns to a tense exchange between Jones and Ward 6 Councilman Jason Spears over how road levy funds should be handled in the city budget, and what that disagreement says about communication, leadership and priorities inside city government.

Later, Joey Deason, executive director of the Madison County Economic Development Authority and a former Golden Triangle Development LINK official, joins the show to discuss the value of regionalism. Deason reflects on his years with the LINK, how Lowndes, Clay and Oktibbeha counties learned to work together and why trust is essential in economic development. He also weighs in on Oktibbeha County’s notice that it may leave the LINK, what that could mean financially and strategically for the region, and why data alone is not enough to land major industrial projects.

The episode closes with updates on the LINK’s new staff roles, Columbus Air Force Base’s change of command, the return of Main Street Columbus’ “Let’s Flamingle Downtown” event and progress on the Beef O’ Brady’s and Newk’s development on Highway 45.

Transcript

Cold Open And Show Setup

SPEAKER_00 0:01

I don't know what he has come up with today to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

I'm not asking you to hide anything. You know, no, put it out there. Let the people see it.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

I've never not worked in a hospital working department.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

You can't argue with anybody when they're putting facts in your face. Zach, that's a hard question. I have no answer for it. From the opinion page of the commercial dispatch. This is between the headlines.

SPEAKER_04 0:29

Flying high here in Catfish Alley Studio in historic downtown Columbus. We have a great show for you today. Stephen Jones getting into a spat, shall we say, with Councilman Spears over various and sundry issues. Also, we'll have on the show Mr. Joey Deeson, who is the executive director of the Madison County Economic Development Authority.

Local Sponsors And Support

SPEAKER_04 0:52

Retirement looks different for everyone, so your plan should be built around you. For over 40 years, Financial Concepts has helped people create retirement strategies that fit their lives. Our team in Columbus takes the time to understand your goals and build a plan that works for you. Wherever you are in your journey, we're ready to help. We plan retirement. Financial Concepts is a registered investment advisor. This episode of Between the Headlines is brought to you by Bank First, a bank headquartered right here in Columbus, Mississippi. That means your banking decisions aren't made hundreds of miles away by someone who doesn't know you. They're made here locally by bankers who know your name and care about the community. At Bank First, we're more than bankers. We're your neighbors. Whether we're cheering in the stands, catching up at a local pancake breakfast, or celebrating milestones across our community, we're part of the moments that matter most. Stop by your local Bank First branch or visit BankFirstFS.com to learn more. Bank First is a member FDIC and Equal Housing lender, Bank NMLS 454063. All right,

Fourth Of July Check-In

SPEAKER_04 1:59

Zach. Welcome back into the studio today. You are our host, Mr. Zach is the managing editor of the dispatch, and I want to ask you how was your fourth, man? Very quiet. Quiet. Very quiet. There was nothing quiet in D.C. Did you see that fireworks finale? Yes. Dude, it looked like they were car carpet bombing the whole place.

SPEAKER_03 2:22

Well, you never do know anymore. I don't get you.

SPEAKER_04 2:24

I've seen a lot of fireworks, but that took the key. Amazing stuff.

Airport Refund And Dallas Subsidy

SPEAKER_04 2:28

So our big topic today, um, of course, comes out of City Hall.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

I was somewhat let me ask you a question before you get started. Okay. Do you want free flights to Dallas? Well, of course I do. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:41

Of course I do. I'm going to get in on this deal one way or the other. I promise you that. Look, uh I was worried we weren't going to have much content this week, but then um uh the hero that he was, uh our mayor came forth and said some things and and I read the paper about this um about what you say and and there was an audible gasp in the room, and it was me reading the hard copy of the paper, and my wife's like, what, what? I said, our mayor wants to fly free. Before we get into this, what is the backdrop of this agreement and how these proposed amendments were maybe going to be dropped into this agreement?

SPEAKER_03 3:22

Okay, so setting the whole scene to be fair to everybody involved. The mayor and the council had just been four days in Biloxi to or the to the to the coast to the mu Mississippi Municipal League Conference that they have every summer. They had just gotten back. I'm not sure if they'd been back an hour from all of this togetherness when they had this work session Thursday. And it was apparent from jump that the togetherness that they had started to fray a little bit because everybody was in a grouchy mood.

SPEAKER_04 4:00

Well, you know, when you get home for vacation, you got a rest from the vacation.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

You would you would think so, and they had 30 some odd items on the agenda to discuss.

SPEAKER_04 4:11

That's the first problem.

SPEAKER_03 4:12

Yeah, and uh one uh one of the items was uh I mean pretty perfunctory, you would think. It um the airport, if you recall, last year came to all of its member uh entities. That's gonna be I mean the same member entities as the link. It's uh uh Lowndes, Clay, Arc Tebahall, Starville, West Point, uh Columbus.

SPEAKER_04 4:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:43

Uh and they said and they said, we want to buy this land that's adjacent to the airport. We need the money fast because if we don't get it fast, uh we're gonna get outbid. So everybody buys certain percentages in shares, uh, chips in. The airport buys the land through federal and state sources, the airport gets uh essentially reimbursed for that purchase for that money. So there the airport director, Matt Dow, flanked with attorneys and Merrill Fisakerly from the link, is going to each member and saying, We got two pieces of news for you. The first one is we are refunding your share of the property uh purchase. And in Columbus's case, that was $275,000. So it's like we want to give you your $275,000 back, but we're wanting $75,000 of that to come back to us, to be reallocated to us to uh fund a year two subsidy for our westbound flight to Dallas through American Airlines. That's a big deal, right there. Big deal. Okay, so uh the first subsidy was put together in 2014, and it took 11 years for them to actually get the service here. So the service has been here for a year and a couple of months. Um it's to be used as needed, and as uh the airport director Matt Dowell explained, it it's to cover the potential for you know the rising fuel cost and different things that would be uh uh that would lower their revenue and and drop them below profitability. He tells them at the time these guys started with 70 percent ridership or occupancy in these planes, they've grown to over 80 percent. Once they get to the mid to high eighties, that's when we're gonna start seeing profitability. They're on the trajectory to do that. They need another year of these subsidies and explains to them that it's industry standard to do that.

Mayor Pushes For Free Seats

SPEAKER_03 7:01

Um enter the mayor into the conversation. Bless his heart who says, Hey, if um we're paying for empty seats, then why don't why doesn't the city for city business, why can't city why can't city officials for city business travel for free? And just keeps on and keeps on and keeps on, and he's never convinced that that isn't the the thing that needs to happen. And he's just going at uh Matt Dowell about this hey, it's empty seats, we're paying for empty seats, so we're already paying for empty seats, so we should get to ride in these empty seats for free. Matt Dowell, by the way, um I'm dying. I I'm I'm I'm in that conference room, I'm covering my mouth, my face is a big thing. I'm I you know, I'm writing with one hand, covering my mouth with the other because it's funny, right? It's funny. Matt Dowell, to his eternal credit, absorbs this with master splinter level composure. Like his face didn't change, his countenance didn't change. He even looks at him and says, you know, that is a, you know, that is a uh a valid concern and a good thought, and then proceeds to tell him in the most diplomatic way possible that the question is not valid and it's not a good thought. But he does it with such grace and diplomacy and acts like the guy just asked him about the weather. And I'm like, I need I need training from this man on how to do that.

SPEAKER_04 8:50

So wow.

Transparency, Optics, And Oversight

SPEAKER_04 8:53

Let's talk about the timing and then talk about why it's a bad idea. Okay. Well, the timing first, didn't we just like two weeks ago um get a really bad taste in our mouth talking about um just the the simple uh transaction of sending city officials to Denver to eat tacos with Carlos Rosales and it made and so this is a fresh thing, and and here it again recurs.

SPEAKER_03 9:23

So well, my favorite thing about it. So the the the story goes our story goes up, it publishes, uh and we post it on Facebook. I think the best observation came from, and uh, and apologies to uh apologies to Kathy Novotny for reading this on the uh on the show, but she says using that analogy, could the taxpayers of uh uh Council District 5 use the copier and telephones in the mayor's office on Tuesday and Thursday morning since we are basically paying for them anyway?

SPEAKER_04 10:00

That's it. She deserves a medal. That wins the internet.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

Well, I mean, there is no delineation between city money and citizen money. Like that's the the city money is is collected from taxes, which is the point that she's trying to make. And it just it was just such a silly argument that was that was that was that the mayor just presented with such swagger and vim and and and vinegar and all of that stuff. He was he just he he was he was there, man. He was gonna get he he was gonna make this point. Well, and it was gonna be this mic drop point. And Matt Dowell is just right there in the middle of it. Fielding it and doing it wonderfully while everybody else in the room, including the council members, are like, uh Is he really saying that?

SPEAKER_04 10:56

There's two evils to this, Zach. Two evils. I uh the lesser evil, I think, is that it's a slippery slope, okay. Who gets to travel? The mayor, the council, okay, the um the the people who were recently fired by may and mayor and council, okay, public works director. I mean, the who's gonna watch over it? That would be just okay, uh in my opinion, well I mean the city city travels anyway. They do, but the citizens do foot the bill for it, but it would be a disaster pick picking who gets the the free flights and who gets it under that particular bizarre term, okay. All that aside, why why would you cast it as a free flight? Think about this, okay. If it's a free flight, who doesn't want to just hop on a plane, go somewhere, okay, look at toy dinosaurs at Ken Ham's Park, okay, to learn about fossils, and then come back and it not be on the record. Where's the transparency in that? There ain't none. That's where the transparency is. He's gonna talk about letting the stuff be out there and open to people, but then stand behind that podium and say something like this, which it's just par for the course for him. And he's not turning the boat around anytime soon. Look, the the transparency, I just don't see it. To me, that's an evasion of transparency. Well, the seats are empty anyway, but even that's Stephen's. Peter is over here squirming. I I've got to push the mic over here. You tell us there's got to be something going on here.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Let's start by me saying I don't necessarily agree with Stephen Jones.

SPEAKER_03 12:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

However, let me ask you these questions. Why does the city chip in on a stipend for the airport in this situation?

SPEAKER_03 12:54

For the airline? I mean, I think that you can make a uh serious argument that they that they shouldn't, but uh But why do they?

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Because we do.

SPEAKER_03 13:03

Right. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

It was in your story.

SPEAKER_03 13:05

Right. It's for it it's to prop them up to profitability or to keep them from lo uh to keep them from having net losses in their first two years.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

That's why do they have net losses?

SPEAKER_03 13:17

Well, now you're getting into Stephen's argument because of uh empty seats, says he.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Correct. So if we are already paying for empty seats, why not put butts in them?

SPEAKER_04 13:29

Okay. So Did you just call the mayor a butt? No, we don't have to be able to do that. No, okay. But we all have one.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

All right.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

Um Well, the air the airport loses more money if you or the airline loses more money if you do that. Uh because you're gonna get a higher net loss for putting a uh uh a butt with a bag and other things that they're going to need that are not subsidized. So, okay, you're subsidizing the seat. That's all you're subsidizing. All right. If you want to do that, then don't bring any luggage.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

And then you agree with Stephen Jones?

SPEAKER_03 14:02

Uh I mean, how are you gonna travel in a plane without bringing luggage?

SPEAKER_00 14:07

You carry on. Or you take a day trip. Um but conceivably we are already paying for empty seats. That's what that subsidy is.

SPEAKER_03 14:16

But but putting a butt in a seat, and and Matt actually made this point, putting a butt in a seat actually costs more with all of the other extra things that go with that, than just eating the seat. And if the city and the county and uh and all of the members are actually wanting to be good stewards of keeping this westbound flight going, because that's the real asset here is you can go east or west now from the airport. That's the real asset here. And so trying to nickel and dime for your own purposes what you can get out of the deal, the community and the region is already getting the main thing out of the deal. And if you want to be a good steward of it, the reason that you're making that investment in that subsidy is so you can keep that thing going. Now, again, you and I probably uh could have a completely different conversation on the subsidy model and whether it should exist. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Yeah, that's not in question here. We're we're paying the subsidy or not. Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:16

You know, that's playing the game. Right. You're paying the subsidy for the viability of the service. You're not paying the subsidy in exchange for fringe benefits for the service.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

And there are the technical logistics of you know, how do you coordinate a ticket with Delta or with America? Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:37

And it just it it just becomes a becomes a headache for everybody because you're trying to get quid pro quo for your money.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

I understand. I'm not necessarily thinking it's a good idea. I'm just drawing the argument. Yeah, I understand. I can see where Steven's argument came from.

SPEAKER_03 15:52

Yeah, but the money, all right. I can also I can see stronger where Kathy Novotny's argument is coming from. Uh because if she tried to go in there and use the copier in the mayor's office on the regular because she's a citizen and help pay for that copier, Angela Jones would eventually have to tell her, hey, we we don't really do that here because that's not what we're for. And American Airlines is not for giving free city flights any more than the mayor's copy machine is for giving citizens free copies.

SPEAKER_04 16:24

Well said. Well, the the look, the sheer optics of it, though, I mean, to the average taxpayer in the city of Columbus, they they just don't want to see city officials living any larger than they do. Now, I understand you gotta travel, you gotta learn things. No, I I get that. I mean that the the salary's not that great to be on that part-time city council and all that, but but the optics are nevertheless terrible.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

Well, if that is true, and you were talking about how do you come down from that? In that particular meeting, they did

Budget Plan Sparks Spears Clash

SPEAKER_03 16:59

not. Because that meeting went on for an hour and a half and it got chippier and chippier and chippier, culminating with um an argument between uh Ward 6 Councilman Jason Spears, who's the finance committee chair, and the mayor here again, where um uh and I'm gonna keep this in brief because it it can get kind of complicated, but essentially um Jason is proposing for next year's budget using the uh the county gives the city some uh a chunk of change from the road levy every year um that goes into the general fund, the city's general fund to be spent how in the hell ever. Jason's wanting to codify how that is going to be spent, and he's wanting to create a department with the mayor and the six wards, getting uh even shares of that money that can be used for projects that either aren't included in the larger road projects or larger infrastructure projects, or that Public Works doesn't have the manpower or equipment for. So that's all I'm gonna say about Jason's plan because that's not what I'm talking about here. They get into a hell of a squabble where they're going back and forth between Jason starts talking about in the middle of this how he's getting texts about how his real ambition is to run for mayor. And I just want to tell everybody right now I'm not running for mayor, I don't have any desire to be the mayor, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Steven pipes in and says, it ain't about uh running for anybody running for mayor, it's about the fact that when you get an idea in your head, uh, it has to be your idea your way, or it's not any good, and and you don't want to communicate with anybody about it, you just want to do it and shove it down everybody's throat. And then Jason says, Well, why don't we try doing it my way for once? And if it doesn't work, you don't have to do it my way again. Stephen's like, Why don't you let me do my job? And then Levine Harris jumps in and says, Can we move on? Can y'all stop and us move on? So that happens.

Mayor Versus Press After Coverage

SPEAKER_03 19:02

We report on all of this. What I want to talk about here is kind of the fallout from that and kind of the mayor's behavior since though that meeting occurred and his response to the coverage of it. Um, because I'm seeing a concerning pattern here that I'm I'm gonna make a direct comparison. So we ran two stories about that uh work session. We ran the story about the airline thing, and then we ran a follow-up several days later that dealt with the squabble with Jason between Jason and the mayor. I was trying to get a quote from Stephen about the second for the second story.

SPEAKER_04 19:40

The squabble story.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

Or really more the I was asking him more about not the argument so much as the uh uh Jason's idea and why he and what what concerns he had. So because I mean he had valid concerns about this, and I wanted to give him an opportunity to express those in in a I wanted to give him an opportunity to express those. Well I go to his office, he's not there, I walk out the door, and he's crossing the street, and he's crossing Main Street from City Hall across to the post office. So I run catch up with him and he looks at me and says, I don't want to talk to you. I don't talk to you anymore. I said, Why don't you talk to me anymore, Steve? And he says, Because of y'all's and I'm editing this for our listeners, he said the word, uh, because of y'all's effed up headlines. Y'all making it sound like I want free flights for my for for personal use. Which neither the headline nor the story made any implication of that being the case, by the way.

SPEAKER_04 20:47

That sounds Freudian.

SPEAKER_03 20:50

That sounds very Freudian. Well, so then he he kind of grouses some more at it, tries to walk away from me. I walk up to him and I'm like, Well, I want to ask you about this this thing with Jason. He listens to the question, he says, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. He walks with me all the way to the or I walk with him all the way to the front door of the dispatch, where he looks at me and says, I guess you'll have to this was Monday. I guess you'll have to find out tomorrow at the council meeting. And he walks off, and that's all he'll say. Okay. So on Tuesday, the story about the argument from the work session and the deal with Jason's idea and not running for mayor and let me do my job and all of that stuff, that story runs on Tuesday in advance of the council meeting. I get to the council meeting, these issues come up again, and they voted the way they voted on it. But while they were discussing it, Stephen pipes in and he uh expresses disagreement with something that Jason said. And then he stops and says, calls me out by name. Says, and Zach, don't put in there that I'm Arguing just because I said something that that was different. But I, you know, you said I argued like you did today in today's paper. You said it was an argument. Uh, but I guess y'all've got to have my quotes in the paper if you want to sell them. Now he says that at the meeting from the board table. Now I want to stop right here and I want to say something that is very important. We're only a year into this term. There's three. It's only been a year. There's three more years left in this term. That's right, I can't remember. And I'm concerned because because because uh I cannot distinguish right now between Stephen's behavior between Thursday and Tuesday and the worst of Keith Gaskins. Which Stephen greatly criticized. Stephen was one of the loudest voices criticizing the fact that Keith didn't work with people, he had too thin of a skin, he couldn't take criticism, he didn't communicate well, he um tried to tried to govern unilaterally, all of these, all of these things. Now, whether those are fair criticisms of Keith at all times is a different is a different thing because I think that Keith had a lot of value in a lot of ways, but he did suffer at times from not being able to take criticism and not being able to communicate with his counsel and and having a very hard time dealing with dissent. All right, and these were things that Stephen himself criticized Keith for harshly.

SPEAKER_04 23:45

He did.

SPEAKER_03 23:46

I cannot distinguish between Keith's worst day and Stephen from Thursday to Tuesday. And that's what I'll say about that.

SPEAKER_04 23:59

It's a stressful job, but but they gotta find a way not to make it so stressful. We look at things from a business standpoint, take them upon their merits. Look at the uh I I think the biggest thing, Zach, is quit trying to take credit. You know, let things happen.

SPEAKER_03 24:22

If you're gonna take credit, take criticism. And if you're going to and if you're gonna have if you're gonna be mad that somebody prints what you said and prints what you did, if that's what you're gonna be mad about, look at the behavior. Don't look at the messenger. And look, I don't care what he says to me. I mean, he can say what he wants to to me. He can criticize the dispatcher all he wants to, but this is a this pattern of behavior actually goes back to, you know, he will publicly say things he's publicly said things when the packet's gotten after. He's made public statements against Shannon Evans when Shannon Evans has gotten after him. And I mean, it's just it it it's a it's a matter of having a thicker skin. It's not a matter of, you know, what you say to people, what you say about people. It's the uh keeping your eye on the ball, keeping the first things first and not focusing on the wrong parts of the problem. Uh for Stephen Jones, the wrong part of the problem to focus on is criticism and cross-examination when it's fair or when it's unfair. The right part of the problem is to focus on the citizens and to focus on what the job of mayor is and it comes with all of these things. So are we are we focused on the right part of the problem or the wrong part of the problem? And I think between Thursday and Tuesday, we did a lot of focusing on the wrong part of the problem, and I think that that has shown up in spots up until this point, and that's what I'm saying.

Substance Over Style In Office

SPEAKER_04 25:48

And Lynn Spruel's listening to this thinking, is that all y'all can talk about? Is is the the behavior in the room? Uh my point here simply being we're talking about this, we're talking about the spat, we're talking about the thin skinnedness, uh your words. Um, and we're not talking about, you know, the the divvying up the numbers. We don't have time left. We're not talking about, hey, Zach, there was a tech survey gonna be done. There was gonna be a robot that was gonna go around and look at all the roads and give us the data and tell us to pave accordingly. Well, that's gotten lost in the conversation, and instead of you know getting things organized and and business-wise and ready to go, the council's having to deal with this this fluff, this hostile work environment.

SPEAKER_03 26:38

Well, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say that, but I will say that it is very emotionally driven, it's very pride-driven, or at least it appears it's very superficial when the depth is there. And and I've said this a lot of times, I mean, the depth is there in the administration. This can be one of the best administrations Columbus has ever had. This is a great council up and down the line. And they do a great job listening to the constituents and trying to make good decisions. There's gonna be disagreement there. And and to and to throw a little back at Jason here, I mean there's a valid argument that he doesn't like to sin either. And he and he is someone who thinks things through in his way and has a hard time sometimes not understanding that people aren't gonna see it his way all of the time. He's got to learn as a leader to take that in stride a little bit better, which on Tuesday he did a lot better job than he did during the work session because he amended his motion several times to um uh listening to his colleagues and seeing kind of where the wind was blowing, and he did okay on Tuesday, but the issue is if you've got two personalities, you've got a mayor and then one councilman, who do believe that they are right, who do take a lot of pride and dignity in how right they are about the thing, and they don't listen to each other, it's gonna alienate both of them from the rest of the council eventually. We've said this before. But I I I think that that's something that I think that's something that Jason needs to recognize and and probably will.

SPEAKER_04 28:24

But at the end of the day, regardless of how you characterize his fire brandedness, he kind of got his way.

SPEAKER_03 28:34

We ended up with a deal, there's there's not a specific number for it into the fun, but they don't know how much money yet, and I think that was the compromise, and I think that he um I think that he acted appropriately Tuesday in inviting that compromise or accepting that compromise. Otherwise it was going to get voted down. But I think that getting into yourself so deeply that you feel like you're the only one that's right, I think can be indistinguishable from other things that we've seen if we're not careful. That is all that I'm saying. And I do believe, and I have seen obviously you know, we've we've seen a lot from Jason in the past, but I've seen a lot from Stephen in the past. He's better than that. And he has been, and he can be, and it just looked substance over style. You've you've got to do things better than just your talent. Stephen Jones might be a very stylish person in his own view, might be a very stylish person in a lot of people's view. He and nobody else has enough style to run a city solely on it. You can't do it on style and you can't do it on the visuals solely. You gotta do it on substance, and it belies the substance of the city on the hill that Stephen Jones wants this place to be and sees this place as. It belies it. When he's worried about effed up headlines and griping at the media from the board table, it is beneath him and it is beneath the office, and he's better than that, and he knows that he is, and that's where I'll leave it.

SPEAKER_04 30:10

Fair enough, Mr. Mayor. I know you're listening. If you'd like to come on here and challenge Zach, challenge his content, cat challenge his words, challenge his haircut. I don't care. Come on the program. We'd be gl we'd be glad to have you. You can also challenge what I've said about you today. We'd like to hear your opine on those matters. So, yeah, Mr. Mayor, there's a seat right here for you. Come have a seat in it, and we won't charge you for it. All right. Next

Joey Deeson On Regionalism

SPEAKER_04 30:42

we'll bring in on the show on the Josh Gillis phone line, Mr. Joey Deeson. He is currently the executive director of the Madison County Economic Development Authority. Did I get that right, sir? That is correct. Very good. And also, you served for the Link here locally, and that's why we're here to get your tidbits here today.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Great, great. Glad glad to be a part of your uh podcast today, and hopefully I can uh shed some light on any questions you may have.

SPEAKER_03 31:11

Joey, just to start, now you were uh you were in the Golden Triangle with the Link from uh 2013 to 2017, is that right?

SPEAKER_02 31:20

That is correct.

SPEAKER_03 31:21

Yes, that so when you uh when you started at the link, kind of what was the um what was the lay of the land at that time? I know that they either had very recently moved into being a regional organization or were still in the process of really making that happen.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

Yeah, it's it's some of the background obviously um was early on with the link, uh I think as early as far as back as 2003 when when I believe Joe Max Higgins came on board and established what is now known as the Link, uh there was discussions even back then to have a larger regional group between Lowndes County, Clay, and Octivihall. And for whatever reasons back at that time, there wasn't enough money, uh, that there wasn't the vision at that point, but it wound up being the link was Lowndes County. Now, fast forward, you know, there were some early successes there that were sort of tied to Hurricane Katrina and having sites ready, doing all the right things. And when I came on board, we had moved past and Clay County and Octibihawk County were both members of the link at that point. And early on, Zach, there was there was a thought that there would be one economic developer for a Tibiha and Starkville and the community. There would be one for Clay and West Point, and then there would be a team for uh Lounds and Columbus as well, and then there would be one overarching individual or group that would just sort of move all the pawns around and and and make it work together. And you were the Octibihaw person, right? I was originally the Octibihaul person, uh, and it did not take long uh to figure out that that type of organization really didn't work properly. Uh, that you needed when when you got a project in, um, you submitted your best sites. And it might have been a site in Octivihall, it might have been a site in West Point, and you submitted a site in Columbus or Lowndes County. Uh, but whatever that site was, you needed all your resources to focus on that site and provide input and provide the correct and accurate information. So it sort of revised itself. We went to each community, sort of laid that out on the table. And a part of that at that point was trust, you know, because uh how does Octibihaw know that you're giving it the resources and the attention that it needs, as opposed to putting everything in Lowndes County or putting everything in Clay County? Um so what was I represented Octivihall, very quickly became to chief operating officer, and we served all three communities.

SPEAKER_03 34:19

Okay. Well, uh uh uh talk about those uh early days in your being at the link and kind of over the time that you were there, how the uh how the relationship and how the cohesion between the three counties changed from the challenges from the beginning to where it was when you left the link.

How The Link Built Trust

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Well, let me give you a real for example. I mean, number one, because the original structure had me representing just Octavia Hall, I lived in Starkville. Okay. Uh the gentleman that represented Clay lived in West Point. Uh the existing link staff was sort of scattered, but they they all live within Lowndes County. So you already had a member that would be seen in the communities, although they're all separate, and interacted with whether it's bankers, the grocery stores, the education systems, et cetera. And and and and in some people's mind, you know, I I was the octaviol guy. And in reality, that's where I lived. But every day I got up and I drove all the way over to Columbus each and every day, just like the gentleman from Clay did. Uh and and it so we were embedded in the community, and it still took time and effort to develop that trust because even, for example, if if you have a sibling, whether it's a brother or a sister, there's there's jealousy, okay? And you have to, as a parent, you have to deal with those type things. And one of the things are well, you know, your brother's six foot four and you're five foot two, you know, let's find what works for you as opposed to what also works for your brother. They may not be the same thing. So it was very quickly identified that every community and county needed their own sites. Okay. Blounts had the the Golden Triangle mega sites there. Very quickly, Clay County came on board with Yokohama and we had the mega site there. So we knew that something had to be developed for Octivihall and Starkville, and that was one of our main focuses and goals. Now, it did not mean that if a project came along that fit a certain mold that was over in Octavihall, you didn't have to have a thousand acres or two thousand acres. For example, we did Ceasepire, okay, the first little data center that's situated right there uh in the park uh at Mississippi University. One of the other things we did was even though that this is considered a regional uh area between Clay, Octavia Hall, and Lounge, we found out very quickly that a lot of the people in one county didn't know the people in the other county. So what we attempted to do was do a mixer of sorts. You know, one quarter we'd have something in Clay County, uh, one quarter we'd do something in Starkville, the next quarter we'd do something out in Lowndes County. But we wanted the the the business community, the leaders, whether it be school, business, education, to all sort of get to know each other and to mix and mingle.

SPEAKER_03 37:44

Well, I mean, well, what kind of impact did that have on uh organizational cohesion among the members?

SPEAKER_02 37:51

Oh, I th number one, uh it it it it formed a bond, it formed a team. Uh, you know, when the link formed the three county coalition, there were members from each county that were appointed to the board. So that was the very first step in building that that coalition, that trust. Uh, because at the at the at the end of the day, if you've got somebody that your county trusts and believes in, and they come back to your community and they relay that information, hey guys, you know, we did the right thing. You know, we're we're we're part of a regional group here. We have to do the right thing for the region because each of those regions has something positive that they offer, uh, whether it's rail sites, whether it's uh uh Mississippi University, or whether it's West Point and what they have to offer there with their rail sites.

SPEAKER_03 38:57

Well, you were talking about the siblings and the siblings with different needs and the jealousy and different things.

Oktibbeha Weighs A Split

SPEAKER_03 39:03

Now you've got one sibling in the uh in the region and within the link that's talking about moving out.

SPEAKER_04 39:11

So if if I may, are they still doing the right thing? That's what I would like to hear.

SPEAKER_02 39:19

Well, well, well, first of all, let me back up. Uh, you know, obviously a lot's occurred over the last year and a half or so. Um Joe Max is a friend of mine. I consider him a dear friend. Uh, I would not have been successful if it was not for Joe Max and what I learned from him in the four or five years that I that I worked at the link. Uh, it gave me a strong base from which I could be successful uh in other locations like here in Madison County. Okay. Uh the Link is a regional organization. I support the Link. I support the regionalism, but at the same time, they're individual members. Each community has to make up their own mind. Does it still work for them? Does it still provide the value that they need? Uh, you know, at the end of the day, I think whether it's Octivy Hall, Lounge, or Clay, they're all going to answer that question themselves. And I guess you, Zach, you need to go back. Why are they asking this question? Why are they asking the question now? And obviously it's because there's been a leadership change. Okay. From 03 until recently, if you looked at a picture of the link, you looked at Joe Max. He was the dominating figure, the personality that is known throughout the U.S., uh, not only just here in the GTR or Mississippi, but he was the link.

SPEAKER_03 40:52

Well, okay, but I mean at the same time, with you seeing how the coalition built and how the coalition strengthened over time, uh this is a question in in this is a two-part question. One, what does losing a member like Octibaha County do to the rest of the link, Lowndes County, Clay County, and the inverse of that, which is what does leaving the link potentially do to Octibaha County now competing with the link for industry and other things?

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Well, number one, you you have to look at it from a financial standpoint.

SPEAKER_03 41:32

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

There's strength in numbers, and when you are part of the link, you've signed a contract. Now it's been 10 years, guys, since I've been there. So I'm assuming that the contracts were three-year rolling contracts, and and and and there was a uh a dollar amount that each county provided to the link, and it went to those resources to make each community successful. So, first and foremost, how does it affect the link? It's going to affect it financially. Okay. Can can it continue to be successful as it is? Only time will tell. With regards to Octivihall, you know, they they've got the North Star Industrial Park now. They've got a lot of favorable and positive things going for them. Do they go out now and hire their own economic developer? Uh that that's something that only time will tell, and that's something that obviously the local community, and that's Octivihall County Board of Supervisors. And I think Starkville does participate in that as well. So I think they have a voice. You know, it in a perfect world, you know, uh things might have occurred differently. Uh, and there could have been a uh something that all the communities could have transitioned into, whether that is they create their own economic development organizations. And and keep in mind, if a lawyer's listening to this, they may question me, but I believe this to be true. There's eighty-two counties in Mississippi, each county via legislation uh has an EDA, an economic development authority. So I'm a part of the Madison County EDA, Octavi Hall has an EDA, Lowndes has an EDA, and Clay has an EDA. So each community already has an economic development organization that is there. And typically what those organizations do, they can buy, sell land, uh, do water, sewer, everything that you need to be successful.

SPEAKER_04 43:56

Let me ask you this. Actually, let Let me give you my opinion and you tell me where I'm wrong about this.

SPEAKER_03 44:05

He will be, Joey. He'll be wrong.

SPEAKER_04 44:08

I think that Octibihaw is being a little naive, and I think they're making a mistake. There are things that we have here on this side of the river that are really needed by Octibihaw and by Starkville, even by Mississippi State. Okay. We've we've got the the ports, we've got the river, we've got more railway, uh, and and we've got an excellent workforce, workforce development. All that's I understand some of it's over there, some of those monies are all tied together. But I feel in my bones that Octivihall County and Startville is getting a little high and mighty with this. They're they're feeling that they can be the Lone Ranger. And and I respect that boldness, but at the same time, I feel like there are certain aspects of the the economy over there that are a little shaky. You look at SEC sports, you look at the the things that are going on with athletics, and what trickles down from that is bed and breakfasts and all these these things out there, and to me, it feels a little bit like a house of cards. Lynn Spruell had some words for me on that opinion. Yes, she did. Okay. And it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

What say you? Well, uh number one, if you're asking me, do I support regionalism? Absolutely. I I think there's a lot of value in regionalism because and and there again, because the regions and the counties are so different. They all have something that they bring to the table, uh, like the siblings, a 6'4 and a 5'2. You're still a family at the end of the day, okay? And that family needs to work together and figure out how to move forward in whatever shape, form, or fashion that looks like. It could be some type of a hybrid. Look, I haven't spoken to the city of Starkville nor anybody at the Tibby Hall County Board of Supervisors, uh, probably in about eight years. All right. Um, I have had uh a a little dealings with one of the supervisors, but that was eight, nine years ago since I've been here. Yeah, it it it's it's different folks, it's different culture, and people tend to forget sometimes what it was like before. Yeah, you know, that we had together. And it's sort of like Moses, you know, standing there looking over into the promised land, and and and and finally you get invited to be a part of the team and you want to walk back over across the river. Okay. So look, I'm not I'm not going to tell Starkville and I'm not going to tell Octibi Hall what they should be doing. Sure. You're not going to get that out of me. But I can't tell you.

SPEAKER_03 47:07

That's not what we want, but I do want to ask you from a practical standpoint, from a from a nuts and bolts standpoint, really taking even some of the points that David was making about infrastructure. I don't believe that uh Starkville is a house of cards or that their economy is a house of cards.

SPEAKER_04 47:23

I believe that Starkville is a house of cards, but I think they're playing us right now. Okay. And I think they're benefiting from us. Go ahead, Zach.

SPEAKER_03 47:32

My question. My question is, who comes out better over time in this divorce?

SPEAKER_02 47:39

Well, number one, the divorce has not occurred yet. Right, I know. So so so we're we're all sitting here, you know, discussing what maybe could happen.

SPEAKER_03 47:48

Right. They gave two years notice to give themselves options, and I understand and respect that. I'm asking if the divorce were to consummate here, who comes out better in ten years? Does Lowndes notice the does Londs and Clay, or do rather, Londs and Clay, notice the absence of Octabahaw County more than Octibaha County uh notices the absence of the link?

SPEAKER_02 48:12

I'm gonna say it's equal every direction. Uh I I'm gonna tell you it's equal in every direction. You know, number one, there there's there's a large problem and an issue, and I I we talked about it when I was at the link as well, uh with regards to you know kids going to college and and getting a a degree that comes out and pays $18,000 a year, and you spent $85,000 a year to get it. The finances just don't work, okay? And I'll give you a perfect example. My daughter loved interior design. Okay. When she went to Mississippi State, she said, I'm gonna go into interior design. I said, No, you're not. You're gonna you're you're gonna get an accounting degree. And if you want a second major, you can also do interior design. She entered into accounting school, she started interior design, and after one semester, she told interior design, no, I'm done with this. Okay. So sometimes those are hard lessons, and communities can learn from those things as well. You you always need to look back at the past, you always need to look at the future. Um I will tell you that your region, because of the link, and I will go as far as to say because of Joe Max, who, as I mentioned, many people, that's who they identify as the link. And and and and obviously Joe, Joe left the link. I don't know all the peculiars of of who, where, why, etc. Uh, but it was not it, it appeared that it was not on favorable terms. Okay. Uh, in a perfect world. In a perfect world, Joe would have retired there, he would have anointed the next queen or king, and transitioned into a beautiful sunset, and everybody would have been happy, and that's the way it would have gone. But obviously that is not happening.

SPEAKER_04 50:32

I let me let me challenge you on that.

Data Versus Personality In Deals

SPEAKER_04 50:35

Uh, could it be said that in the world of economic development, most of the deals that are done today are more data-driven and less personality driven? Because we get this fantasized idea where Joe Max or whoever it is is getting on the golf cart, smoking the stogie, making these people happy about Lounge's clay, Octivihall. And because they get a good feeling in their gut, they say, Yeah, boys, let's come over here and build something when in actuality you've got computers and you've got data and you've got demographics, and the job of a good CEO is just to get that out there so the computers of these big corporations around the world can read it and say, you know what, Mississippi is a good fit for us.

SPEAKER_03 51:23

I'm interested in your answer to this actually, quite a bit.

SPEAKER_02 51:27

Well, uh obviously the world has changed drastically, okay? Um with with the introduction of AI, with with social media, with communication methods, etc. But I will tell you, you you can have all the data in the world, all the data in the world. If you can't sell it to somebody, the data doesn't mean anything. Okay. So I've seen where consultants have actually come into the GTR. And guess what? The consultants go, all the data, everything points to this is the right place. This is where we should be. And you know what happens? The CEO's wife comes to town and goes, Hey, do they have a Trader Joe's? No. Well, we're going to Birmingham. And that's it. All the data doesn't mean anything. So you it it's a combination. You can't have one without the other. You gotta have the data, you gotta be prepared, you gotta be a person that can sell it as well because it's very, very difficult. Look, I bought cut I bought some cut co knives, okay, in one point in my career. I didn't, I didn't have a job. I was broke. And this guy comes up to me and I bought six hundred dollars worth of cut co knives. And I didn't have a job. He was a salesman.

unknown 52:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:54

Act your wage, dude.

SPEAKER_03 52:57

Well, I I want to transition here because I I really appreciate your time uh uh uh talking about the link, and I think we've got a lot of good insight from this discussion.

Madison County Wins And Lessons

SPEAKER_03 53:06

But talking about being a good salesman, it sounds like you're uh doing a hell of a job where you are. What what what's going on in your world right now?

SPEAKER_02 53:14

Well, you know, obviously I'm I've been here nine years. Um and from some of the teachings that I learned at the link, um I've been able to parlay that into some large projects. Uh currently over the last nine years, I think we're almost at $30 billion. And that's that's very conservative. Uh the numbers will be high. Those are what has been committed on paper, okay? And about 7,000 jobs. Uh obviously Madison County is a little bit different than the GTR. We're very next to and attached to the Jackson MSA. Uh, so we have some benefits of uh of a larger population, uh, which has benefited us. And same thing, you know, I when I came on board, there was a trust issue. You have to learn your board, the board has to learn new, the community has to learn new, but it becomes so much easier once you have that first win. Uh everybody wants to get on the train at that point, and you can all move together. But it does go back to something that I've learned is your basic blocking, tackling, and and and and and working together as a team. And it all goes back to something that the GTR has been very successful in, which is numerous megasites. Uh, I can't think of any other region that has that many.

Data Centers And Environmental Myths

SPEAKER_04 54:52

If I were to compare what's happening in Madison to what's happening here locally, would it be fair to say that the culture in Madison is a little more environmentally cautious and uh there's the potential, possibly, for people to come here, put data centers or whatever manner of of large factory over the swamp because we're less environmentally conscious. I uh that's kind of an aside, but I I know they do things differently in Madison. What say you on that?

SPEAKER_02 55:27

No, I I I I wouldn't agree with that at all. I I I think number one, I'm gonna get to the core of the question. I I think the sort of driving some of that. Number one is that there's a lot of misinformation, miscommunication, misdirection, all driven directly to data centers. And and everybody can h hypothesize all that they want with regards to where it's coming from. Uh I have my own thoughts, which could be the people that we're competing against uh that's driving a lot of this misinformation, which is China. At the end of the day, it comes down to the truth. And I can tell you, your listeners, everyone else, number one, both of you are both invited, come down here. I'll take you out to a data center that's operational, and you'll sit there and you'll go, I hear more birds than I do any noise. I don't see any pollution. It's racks and servers. Okay. You have them at your house, you have them at the businesses there at the GTR. So from an environmental standpoint, regardless of whether you're in Madison or whether you're at the GTR, there's federal, state, local regulations that everybody has to follow. Okay. So I I'm gonna tell you from that perspective, it it there's no difference.

SPEAKER_03 56:53

Okay. Well, is there anything else you want to uh uh address while you're here? We really appreciate you coming on.

SPEAKER_02 57:02

No, no, I look, I appreciate you having me on your podcast. Uh I wish the GTR, the link, Joe Max, each individual county and community, you know, as they move forward, you know, sometime time heals things, and sometimes it it just festers. So we'll see which direction that the link does finally go in at the end of the day, and I wish them the best.

SPEAKER_04 57:30

We thank Mr. Joey Deeson for coming on to the program today. Zach and I will probably take him up on the offer to come inspect the megasites down in Madison. And should we come back and our eyes glow in the dark at night, we should have to let you know. Thank you so for coming on today.

Link Staffing Updates And Invitation

SPEAKER_04 57:48

So that was a surprisingly insightful interview.

SPEAKER_03 57:51

It's always good to hear from Joey.

SPEAKER_04 57:53

Yeah, and and I learned a lot about the years gone by for the Link, and um he he did open up a little bit. I'm glad that he did that. I wish him well. I wish the link well, especially in these new hires uh that we've got.

SPEAKER_03 58:07

Well, and let me before we go into the new hires, I want to say that uh we invited uh Link CEO, Merrill Fisacley, onto the show today. Uh she had agreed to come, was very open to uh r speaking with us today. I think that uh her circumstances uh kind of ran aground this morning and she uh let me know before the show or before the recording that she wasn't gonna be able to make it. Uh we hate to miss her, but uh we do want to talk about the new hires, as you said. Uh Link announced earlier this week our good friend Brent Lakala, who we've had on the show. Um he's been hired as the director of business retention and expansion. So that's a new position uh with the Link. Also, uh Leah Upton, who used to be Director of Finance, has been uh promoted to Chief Operating Officer. Lastly, Elizabeth Templeton, who joined the Link 2023 as a project manager, is now director of economic development. So two promotions and a and a new position. And man, I I know I don't live in this space, but I've met Brent and and and we've had several opportunities to talk, and I think that that's a that's a great role for him. He he fits that very well.

SPEAKER_04 59:23

It's a pretty solid roster here. Young guns looks like. That's right. I think they can rock and roll.

SPEAKER_03 59:29

I I we're pulling for them. And again, hate to miss Merrill, and uh it was no fault of her own. She intended to be here and uh just just couldn't make it last minute, and hopefully we'll have her on the show in the future.

SPEAKER_04 59:42

Well, powers uh was off in half the town, from what I could see.

SPEAKER_03 59:45

Yeah, that didn't I I don't think that that that helped our situation in any good shape.

Three Community Headlines

SPEAKER_04 59:50

Hey, three things to know.

SPEAKER_03 59:52

All right. Number one, Columbus Air Force Base welcomed a new commander this week, the guiding pass to Colonel Joshua Jensen during a ceremony Wednesday at the base. He replaces Colonel James Black and will lead CAFB for the next two years. Number two, let's flamingle downtown, presented by Main Street Columbus, is returning for its fifth year Friday, July 17th. From 5 to 8 p.m., participating businesses will have tiny plastic flamingos hidden in their stores. Finding one from at least seven locations gives you a chance to win a $500 gift card or a gift basket worth $400. David just wants the flamingos. Number three, everyone has been asking about the Beef O Brady's and Nuke's progress on Highway 45, and our business columnist, Mary Pollitz, got the answer this week. Construction has been temporarily paused at the old Seco plant site, but franchisees, and I hope I'm saying this correctly, Jamin Patel said it will resume full force July 15th, so that's next week. Beef O Brady's is still expected to open in December. Nuke should be open by early next year. Good, good, good. And just as an aside, uh that building going up beside the Dairy Queen, that's a scooter's coffee. So uh we'll be having that soon as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:12

All right, good, good.

Farewell, Tips, And Final Word

SPEAKER_04 1:01:14

It's been a great show. Friendly city. Y'all hang in there. If Mitch McConnell can hang in there, so can you. Reach out to us. Tips at cdispatch.com. You can also follow me on Facebook or ex at the Chisholm Double Zero and leave a public comment. Keeping it real here in Catfish Alley Studio and Historic Downtown Columbus, your host has been Zach Plair, and I am David Chisholm. Y'all stay friendly out there.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:43

I'm just a simple old country boy, but um, I think that makes sense. I've stepped out and I've said what I had to say.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:51

You've been listening to Between the Headlines with Zach and David. That's what old people do.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:58

That he is.

Publisher Note On Integrity

SPEAKER_00 1:02:01

This is Peter Imes, publisher of The Dispatch. One of our hosts of Between the Headlines is the managing editor of our newsroom. Typically, we try to keep news and opinion separate, but reporters have a unique insight into the workings of local government, and their analysis can be helpful for readers and listeners. The dispatch remains committed to journalistic integrity, and our reporting will always reflect that.