An Officer, THC Gummies, and a Termination PLUS We Interview the New Police Chief

A $58,000 electric golf cart with air conditioning rolls into a city work session and suddenly Columbus has to answer a surprisingly big question: what’s the right way to spend public money when the need is real but the “Cadillac” option feels like a stretch? We talk through the pitch for shuttle carts at the Trotter Convention Center, what problem they actually solve for older guests and event crowds, and why cheaper alternatives might deliver the same public benefit without the luxury price tag. 

Then we shift to a tense local policing story: a Columbus officer loses his job after a required drug test shows THC following a minor wreck, and his appeal fails under a zero tolerance policy. We dig into the uncomfortable gap between detection and impairment, how long THC can remain in someone’s system, and why medical marijuana laws make older workplace rules harder to defend. We also ask what “consistency” should look like when policies get applied unevenly and the community still expects accountability.

We’re joined in the studio by Garland Ward, the newly appointed chief of police, for a candid conversation about leadership, morale, and rebuilding trust. Ward talks about being fair across the board, showing up visibly in the community, using discretion, and holding officers to the same standards they enforce. He also shares how he wants to strengthen partnerships across the Golden Triangle, handle transparency during investigations, and encourage safer ways for witnesses to come forward.

Transcript

Cold Open And What’s Ahead

SPEAKER_00 0:01

I don't know what he has come up with today to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

I'm not asking you to hide anything. You know, no, put it out there. Let the people see it.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

I've never not worked in a hospital working department.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

You can't argue with anybody when they're putting facts in your face. Zach, that's a hard question. I have no answer for it. From the opinion page of the Commercial Dispatch. This is Between the Headlines.

SPEAKER_06 0:29

This week on Between the Headlines, does the City of Columbus need fancified electric golf carts for the Trotter Convention Center? The mayor has thoughts. Also, we have an officer who lost his job and then had it appealed, but did not get his job back because he did, in fact, have THC in his system, and he had some excuses, and we'll talk about those excuses. And and we have Mr. Garland Ward, the freshly minted chief of police, on the show. But first. Retirement

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The Case For Downtown Shuttles

SPEAKER_06 2:09

Welcome to Catfish Alley here in the heart of the friendly city. This is Between the Headlines. Your host is Mr. Zach Player, who is the managing editor of the Dispatch, and my name is Dave Chisholm. We've got a light-hearted show today. I think we'll have fun talking about these things, and later on we've got the newly minted chief of police looking forward to that. So, Zach, how have you been, sir?

SPEAKER_02 2:33

I've I've been good. I've been good. I I did uh, you know, I can still make that walk up and down that hill on 2nd Avenue by the Trotter.

SPEAKER_06 2:41

So uh But you're a reasonably fit guy.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Well, that's what they say.

SPEAKER_06 2:45

So uh the story here is there was a salesman, shall we call him? Yes, that came into the uh the city council meeting and and uh it uh at the behest of uh Trotter Convention lady. Uh what's her gina bonner, yeah. Regina Bonner, nice, nice lady. But um these golf carts, glorified golf carts.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

Very glorified golf carts.

SPEAKER_06 3:08

Yeah. Uh some of them of which have radios and air conditioner and um, you know, uh I I guess drink suspen dispensers, whatever's in it. Um they're kind of expensive. What was the price tag? The Cadillac was like the Cadillac was like 58,000.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

The m that was the model that was brought to the work session on Wednesday. I mean, sorry. That was the model that was brought to the work session on Thursday, and you know, Rusty Green and Rogina and the fire chief and some others rode around in it around downtown, uh, enjoyed themselves. Uh they've got a base model that uh runs closer to forty to forty-five somewhere in there. Thousand thousand. Now what what they're for and what they're be what they were being pitched for was people park at the Trotter Convention Center to go to events. All right, you're you're elderly, you're there for your granddaughter's wedding or whatever it's being held in in the Trotter, and you're at that side parking lot. Well, having some sort of shuttle to take you up that hill on Second Avenue and around to the front is convenient and would be of some use. Um the other part of this is you know the amphitheaters coming and they could use this sort of shuttle service to get people from their cars to the amphitheater.

SPEAKER_06 4:40

Well, now we're talking.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Right.

SPEAKER_06 4:41

When I think about the trotter, I think about the fact that they have a downstairs entry now. Is that downstairs entry not open if they just rented the upstairs facility?

SPEAKER_02 4:52

When you when you when you rent the when you rent in the front, you gotta go around and enter in the front, from what I understand.

SPEAKER_06 5:00

It seems cheaper if there would be a workaround there.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

Well. We need to look at all of our options, and I think we

Sticker Shock And Cheaper Alternatives

SPEAKER_02 6:00

need to uh r get the one that's best, and if we can't find one of these e-cars that maybe has a twenty thousand dollar price tag on it, uh or a couple that have a twenty thousand dollar price tag on it or less, then let's just get some golf carts because they'll do the same thing. Yeah. And um that's that's that's a practical way of looking at it. Um I think that there were some council members who agreed with him. Uh Rusty uh Green was getting into he he rode around uh with the salesman in in the in this little uh what do they call it, global electric motor car uh E6 souped up the that $58,000 version of it. And he was getting in and he said, and I was taking pictures, and he said, Zach's gonna put in the paper that we're gonna buy a $60,000 uh e-vehicle for the Trotter, and that may not necessarily be the case. So I think that Rusty and Steven may agree on that point. But um I like the mayor's response.

SPEAKER_06 7:04

I do. I like the mayor's response on this one.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

And I like Regina bringing this guy from Brunswick, Georgia, and putting out there what the the top of the line, or ostensibly the top of the line, could look like. Have you ever seen those uh shows on HGTV where they're like, okay, well, um we need to buy a house, but if we're gonna buy a house, it needs to have all of these things. And then they say, All right, well, let's take you to but our price range is this. Okay, well, let's take you to the house that has all of the things, and then we'll show you all the things that it has, and then we'll tell you the price. You can't afford it, but now you're becoming more realistic about what needs to happen. Yeah. Now you're more likely to actually do something and to do something in your price range and make the concessions that you need to make.

SPEAKER_06 7:53

Yeah, every single government entity does it that way. They're like, let's fluff up our budget request as fat and porky as we can. No offense to her. I'm just saying, just generally. But and then it's like, oh, well, maybe the the five million dollar ain't so bad, right? And so that always happens.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

But uh Well you can say is no, and if you're being a good steward, if you're being a good steward, that means two things. You are supplying your uh you're you're supplying your departments with the resources that they need to operate at at the highest and best level uh affordable. And you're doing it at the level that is affordable. And so I think that knowing all the information is the best way to be a good steward of that.

SPEAKER_06 8:45

I think if you're being a good steward, you're gonna call up Leroy Brooks and say, hey, that golf cart that you have at Juneteenth, can we borrow it? Can we enter into an interlocal agreement and uh agreement to use Leroy's golf cart? Yeah, I don't know if it's his or if it belongs to a church or what, but it it it rode quite nicely. I mean, that that's all we need. Just one or we don't need six of them things. Come on.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

So, so uh well no she's uh so she's wanting four, but she w they want to start with two. And again, by showing the top-of-the-line possibility, or at least ostensibly top of the line possibility, instead of the council now thinking, no, we don't need this at all. They're thinking about the possibility of, man, it would be nice to have something like that, but we don't need something that expensive. Let's think about doing something, but something practical. And she's gonna probably end up getting her way on it.

SPEAKER_06 9:46

Maybe so. Well, let me ask you this: why not the private sector, though? Why can't they put a little clause in there? Hey, for for an extra amount, uh we can contract out Leo's luxury limos to come up here with uh I'm sure he's got some sweet rides to get you up the hill.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

You're going around a corner, David. You're not going to cross town.

SPEAKER_06 10:09

On prom nights, they may want a joyride around, you know, the wherever.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

Well, that's a wonderful idea. Yeah, let's joyride children around on the on the city's diet.

SPEAKER_06 10:21

Well, they're gonna do it anyway. Well, look, I'm just glad that uh that Mayor Jones did not say, hey, uh let's let's get them, let's go ahead and get four of them. Uh but just to be clear, you're gonna let us ride for free, right? We can borrow these things and you know, just take them around. You know, just to keep the battery, you know, since they're sitting there, we might as well maintain the with a police escort. I'm just picking on it. Good job, Mayor Jones. I appreciate you on this one.

Officer Fired After THC Test

SPEAKER_06 10:50

So our next topic here, we've got this uh gentleman. Do we want to call his name out or just call him the officer? That's the officer. Uh the ex-officer. Because the the story is quite interesting, and the story goes um he backed into a phone pole, I suppose it was.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

And he was uh at a call and he was leaving that call to go to another one, I think. And in a in a hurry, he backed into the telephone pole.

SPEAKER_06 11:20

And and per the city police policy, the once in a while.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Um per the city policy city police policy every once in a while. Yeah, and so the officer had to take a drug test.

SPEAKER_06 11:31

Had to take a drug test. And guess what? Yeah. There was THC in a system, which uh resulted in his termination. Okay. Not a whole lot to talk about there, except he decided to appeal his termination before who was the Civil Service Commission. Civil Service Commission.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

And they upheld it on the policy of zero tolerance for THC.

SPEAKER_06 11:57

Okay, so uh he remains without a job. Right. But interesting to this case is he said Yeah, there was THC in my system, but it was because I ate gummies that were in the backseat of my acquaintances' cars.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

I don't know them real real well.

SPEAKER_06 12:15

And and I thought they were fruit snacks or whatever. And that just didn't jeehaul.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Sometimes you just need a snack. Well And if it's in my if it's in a virtual stranger's cup holder in the back seat, it just is.

SPEAKER_06 12:31

Well, when I read the story. When I read the story, it said it was both gummies and chips. Are there chips with THC now?

SPEAKER_02 12:41

To my understanding, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 12:43

Oh my goodness. So you can satisfy both your um your your munchies and your need for the THC in the Trevor Burrus, efficiency and good stewardship.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

We were talking about that with the other thing. And see, the private sector has has has come to the rescue just like you think it ought to, David. Efficiency. We're good. Good stewardship.

SPEAKER_06 13:07

Um so back to this thing, he he says that that he didn't know what it was. Okay. And and first off, all right, I'm I'm a minivan guy. I've got a lot of kids.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

So you what you're saying is you don't have edibles.

SPEAKER_06 13:23

Well, a minivan, as you know, can easily turn into a rolling trash can. Yes. And I don't care what it is, I'm not eating anything out of the back seat. I don't care how hungry I am. I'm just gonna have to go without. So I I'd like to give this guy the benefit of a doubt, but I am too crass. I don't buy the story.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

I'm not I'm not gonna touch whether the story has any veracity. I'm not gonna call the guy a liar. I the Civil Service Commission didn't even call him a liar.

SPEAKER_04 13:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

This is the tragedy of it all to me, and this is where and this is coming from somebody, by the way, who has never partaken of THC products, marijuana never smoked marijuana, uh, probably not ever going to. The sad part of this situation is that even uh Jeff Turnage, who prosecuted the city attorney who prosecuted uh this guy on behalf of the city on the appeal says at the end he acknowledges this guy hadn't been in trouble, he's a good officer. Um and so, but now this is on his record, and it's gonna be hard for him to be an officer anywhere else, I suppose. Um meanwhile you've got because zero tolerance is zero tolerance, and we've got this zero tolerance policy. First of all, we've already, you know, we we know that that zero tolerance policy, at least under uh the previous chief, had some damn flexibility. It did. Um and we know it did. But r really beyond that, and and you know, Chief Ward, who we're gonna have in here later, you know, I hope that we get more consistency on the policies that exist. If we're gonna be strict, let's be strict all the time. Uh but to me, this would be I mean, marijuana is an illegal substance to uh possess or partake in, certainly to to distribute um if you don't have a prescription. But you've

Rethinking Impairment And Drug Policy

SPEAKER_02 15:35

got the views of marijuana seem to be getting very different right now socially and with law enforcement staying exactly kind of where they've been on it. It's like, oh, it's an illegal drug and it's terrible and this and this and this. I don't know. I don't do marijuana, I told you that. But from a societal standpoint, it's a lot more ubiquitous. From a from the legislature standpoint, it's medicine. So if it's medicine, then why is it being treated like something else? Um and and and and more than that so if if you had a drink with your buddies on well, let me back up, because the timeline on this guy is he he ingested these gummies unknowingly, quote unquote, on Wednesday. On Saturday, or on Friday, maybe he goes back on duty, it was Sunday when the wreck happened. He did not show, to the acknowledgement of uh everybody at this hearing, he did not appear impaired Friday or Saturday. He's on the or Sunday, he's on the third day of his shift on Sunday. And this ends up happening that could have happened to anybody, could have happened to somebody stone sober uh under the circumstances that he was in. So it was just bad luck that he gets his test and pops hot for THC, which can stay in your system for weeks up to a month long after it's actually impairing you. So let me ask you this you have a drink with your buddies on Saturday. You go back to work on Wednesday, you're clearly not drunk anymore, you're working just fine, but then you bump into something with your work truck, have to go take a test for your work, and it just so happens that alcohol is a substance that can stay in your system for weeks or a long time. Right. But whether I mean the only difference is how long it stays in your system. The you're not impaired.

SPEAKER_06 18:06

Yeah, the letter of the law is uh uh by definition legalistic, right? I mean that's just how it has to be.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

And I don't does it have to be that way? Because I think that there's got to be some flexibility here where you can add a secondary test for impairment. Yes. All right, so are you impaired? Like we know that it can stay in your system for weeks up to a month, and we know that it can stay in your system long beyond the point where it's impairing you. That's just that that's something that anybody knows pretty well. So why can't we do something secondary with that to say, okay, well, are you impaired? Did you knowingly come to work impaired? Because I think that that is the bigger issue. Now, if you want to add to that, if you've got you've got to have a weed card for that to matter, which wouldn't have saved this officer because he doesn't he's a I don't do marijuana, I did this by accident, etc. etc. It wouldn't have saved this guy's job, but what if he had had a weed card? What if he had a weed card and he was doing uh he was taking what under Mississippi statute is medicine responsibly and as he was prescribed and he was not coming to work impaired? All right, is there a way to prove that? And can there be some flexibility for that? Because it it seems to me, especially in fields where you're short folks, letting a good officer go or letting a good employee go on the count of something they did four days ago when they were off duty that that didn't hurt anyone. Like if he was driving that way, that's different. Like you get an off-duty DUI, you were a danger to the public. But you're riding in the back of a car. All right, well, you want to put on it, say, Well, he didn't have a prescription card. I get that. But if you've got it, say you have a prescription card and you're using it responsibly as you're supposed to, and you're not coming to work impaired, but you bump into the telephone pole, pop hot, and now you're facing a zero tolerance policy because you happen to have a prescription for a medicine that's statutorily medicine now.

SPEAKER_06 20:25

Yeah, it's a complicated thing. We we really need to get Pierre Beard on the Josh Gillis phone line and get his take on this stuff.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

I'm interested to see if he's gotten his card yet.

SPEAKER_06 20:37

Love you, Pierre.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Always great to talk to.

SPEAKER_06 20:41

For sure. Um I remember very clearly when 65A was getting ready to be put on the ballot, 65, 65A, and you know, Mississippi voted to have it.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

Yeah. Overwhelmingly.

SPEAKER_06 20:56

And I remember Eddie Hawkins standing up and asking some questions, not trying to be political, but he asked some questions like, how much does it allow? And and the guy said, and he's like, That's a lot. And and it was one of these deals where I at the time did not realize that Pandora's box was going to be opened. I did not realize that I could stand uh close to the highway and put my kids on the bus, and there are these these cars going 60 miles an hour down highway 50, and I smell the pole cat as they zip by. Like, how is that even a thing? And and it's just so pervasive and it's everywhere, and I know everybody has an opinion on it. Right. But we're gonna have to update the laws and we're gonna have to think smart about this. Um the war on drugs and all these opinions, they're gonna be there.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 21:50

But right now, I do kind of feel bad for this officer.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

I I I do, I do, and um and again, I'm certainly not a advocating for I don't I don't use the stuff and don't intend to, but I just I feel like we're really far apart in our social and statutory understanding of that substance and our uh enforcement of it on in certain areas. And I think that this might have been one of those areas because a good cop by the admission of the person prosecuting him, a good cop who'd never been in trouble now is without a job.

SPEAKER_06 22:37

Yeah. Well maybe if he applies elsewhere, uh those who go through the records and and uh do an interview, they they can look uh in print and see what Jeff Turnage and others did say about him. So next up we've got the new chief we'll ask him about some of these things. Okay.

Garland Ward Becomes Police Chief

SPEAKER_06 22:58

At this time we are pleased to have in the studio Mr. Garland Ward who is the freshly minted chief of police for the city of Columbus. Congratulations thanks for coming in how's the honeymoon going sir well right now everything's going pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

Um I don't expect it all to always to be this way but right now it's pretty good. I'm enjoying it I'm enjoying the transition and so keeping busy and that's about all I can say on that note.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Well I want to say I want to go back to the day you were appointed um they had the executive session all signs point to including you know what the mayor has said publicly I intend to recommend uh uh uh assistant chief ward as the interim chief during the search and then you come back in there and they're like there will be no search you're the chief good luck uh kind of walk me through what happened there and how you kind of responded to it well basically I is it's it's funny um that morning I had printed out my resume because I needed to get it updated I had sent it off to someone that and I paid to get it updated already because I plan on apply.

SPEAKER_03 24:15

And so during the meeting the discussions took place and um about interim or permanent and they went back and forth and then I was asked to step out of the room and I stepped out and 15 minutes later councilman Smith came and got me and I went back in the room and they said you are now chief without the interim and so what's what what happened in that moment physiologically to your body? And at that moment I had to take a deep breath and I um I thanked counsel I thanked the mayor um I told them I appreciated the confidence that they had in me and at that moment I knew that my first order of business would be to have a conversation with my staff and and and go over my plans for the police department and my plans for them.

SPEAKER_06 25:06

So I'm wondering what what has given you this preemptive superstar sadus all right because like the packet just I I gotta say this you know just as soon as um uh the the former chief was um bid fairly well they said without ado we need to bring the orb and the scepter and have Mr. Garland Ward to be the chief without ado. And I'm sure we had an editorial of the same day and and look I mean that that obviously says something good about you.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

Well what what do you think um uh that you have done to create that rapport both with the council and with your um your colleagues I I'm a I'm a people person I understand the nature of the business I've been in law enforcement 26 years I've been I worked at Attorney General's office I've worked for Department of Defense I've been a chief before M. McComb and I understand that business is business. It's gonna be good days are going to be bad days but at the same time it doesn't it doesn't change who you are when it comes to to being who you are meaning that Zach is a reporter. Zach's job is to report whether it's good or bad and I'm not gonna be upset with Zach or any reporter because of what they say. And so people I'm gonna treat people the way they the way they deserve to be treated until they show me otherwise my guys at the police department every officer that works at the police department I have a one-on-one conversation with when they get hired I know how many kids they got I know their family I know I'm a very personable person. Now I mean business when it's business is business but I'm very personable. I talk to everybody I'm nice to everybody I treat everybody the way they need to be treated and that's it I I'm just me.

SPEAKER_06 27:09

Do you think that that that positive vibe that you're you're attempting to emanate and spread within the department do you think it's gonna quell that bitching and moaning that that kind of led to your predecessor's demise?

SPEAKER_03 27:23

I don't I think that's a that was a that was a very subjective question.

SPEAKER_06 27:29

I know I know but I mean it was there they they were let me ask that question a different way.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Please there were and and these are things that you've spoken to even yesterday at the Exchange Club a little more vaguely but uh there were some rumblings of uh maybe transparency issues in the police department. And even out of your own mouth uh to us you told us that there were grumblings of uh morale issues uh within the department uh to the extent that you can or are comfortable uh can you speak to what those are and what you're doing about them and the thing about it is I you you hear them but trying to get to the bottom of it is the is the complicated part because nobody wants to take ownership of it.

SPEAKER_03 28:35

Right. And so when nobody wants to take ownership of it you have to figure out a way to to not dismiss it because if it's letters coming it's something there.

SPEAKER_04 28:45

Right.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

And so my job was to have a meeting when I got in office I had a meeting with I had a general assembly with everybody and and I told them I said I can stand here and tell y'all what I'm gonna do and what I'm gonna say and what to expect but my question is what do y'all expect of me? I can make one promise to y'all that I can keep and that's a promise to be fair across the board and and and being that I had already been being fair because I was already sitting there as assistant chief for three and a half years they was comfortable with me they they

Morale Concerns And Fair Discipline

SPEAKER_03 29:20

I got a lot of the conversations that Chief Dodger didn't get if that makes sense. Right.

SPEAKER_06 29:27

And so perhaps people were confiding in you? Yes. Okay well that's that's good.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

And so we had a I had a relationship with a lot of the officers and and and Chief Doctor wasn't a bad chief it was just we have certain different styles and it's different style of of leadership. And so and I think they gravitated towards me because I would get on you if you make a mistake and I would you know do what we're supposed to do but at the same time I'm explaining to you why I'm doing this, why is this taking place, what I expect from you going forward. And I think that was a difference.

SPEAKER_06 30:04

Trevor Burrus And they had some policy grievances do you think you might be addressing some of those policies or maybe amending some of them pursuant to what those requests were you know what was it? It was like being on call when it helped me out Zach it was they were different things I want to go back to some things that you said at the exchange club yesterday when you were talking some things that you and I have talked about.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

Visibility in the community not only yours but department wide what does that need to look like and how are you going to get there?

SPEAKER_03 30:42

That needs to look like us not just driving around every day. If we see someone sitting on the porch right why not stop have a conversation hey my name is so and so I work at the Columbus Police Department how are you? Just general conversation um it's not gonna it's not gonna take anything away from your time but it's gonna give you a lot you're gonna gain a lot you're gonna you're gonna gain trust um and I just believe in that I believe in in in in talking to people every store I go in if I go if I'm going to eat at Chick-fil-A I walk in I speak it's gonna be somebody that I'm gonna stop and talk to just to have conversation. I don't I'm not hello I'm Sister Chief my name is Garland Chief of Police How are you?

SPEAKER_06 31:30

Oh 23 bingo That's what they do in there uh but yeah that's good it it's gonna give you um it's gonna make you feel more accessible but but but yet at the same time I think people are afraid of police officers like in an unhealthy way in this town. And and I I'm not assigning fault to that maybe it maybe it's in every town but um I guess there's a lot of people that that assume that that you know if I get pulled over or I mean I'm I'm just gonna get in trouble even if I haven't really done anything. There's just a lot of people that feel that in their hearts um as far as the way that that you intend to um uh enforce the law what what what can you say uh just to that that mindset I can say this and and and and this is what I believe and this is what I live by everybody you meet is not a criminal everybody you meet doesn't deserve a ticket and everybody you meet doesn't deserve to go to jail that's your discretion as a police officer but you got to keep in mind you got to have empathy you got to have sympathy you got to have understanding well because everybody's everybody's people including you guys okay right discretion all right I I I want to ask you about that if I may right you pull over an old pickup okay uh a tail light's not working all right and sitting in the driver's seat is a curly headed manager of a newspaper and um he he talks normal his his pupils are okay but let's just say there's a a faint whiff of the Taco Bell salad shall we say all right what how do you approach that because that's a common problem in Columbus. All right we smell weed everywhere and yet not everybody's going to jail over that it's a hard conversation and it's a nuanced conversation and you can't make assumptions.

SPEAKER_03 33:40

Well you you know I it is a hard conversation and it's and it's a different conversation in in when you're dealing with young police officers well as we have a young department you know they're going to do things different than a person that has 16 17 18 years on a department so some kind of way we got to manage to bridge that gap um and I hadn't worked the street since 2005 so you've you've been at a desk since 2005 yes okay and so it is it is it is so I'm gonna have to get out and ride around and and and and get in a car with some of these guys and see and that's my first you know art of business is to get in the cars ride around with some of the guys and see what they see and try to train and see what you know because like I said I hadn't been in I've been I worked at JPD I was on patrol for three years I interviewed for uh CI um investigation division I got promoted three years and I've been at a desk

Community Visibility And Officer Discretion

SPEAKER_03 34:55

and going up the rank because I had a journal of where I wanted to be at certain times in my career and I followed it and I've mastered it and so I hadn't been on a patroller since 2003.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

Well I want to I want to go into the I want to go into the officer you talk about the young officers and we've talked about you guys being 10 officers short at the at the department that's been pretty pretty steady y'all have been 10, 12, 15 officers short.

SPEAKER_03 35:22

And it's not just you guys it's uh the other departments everywhere are having a hard time getting and keeping police officers uh first of all what is uh singular about the civil service jobs like policing and fire right now that make it so hard to get people in um and I mean what can you do to combat it that's a good question I I don't know because if you look in the state of Mississippi like we're here in in northern Mississippi if you go up the Olive Branch or South Haven you're you're you're going through the door as a as a new police officer at 60 60 6500 a year that's just with that's just as a police and here it's like it's not the same so there and everybody doesn't want to be the police right and and unfortunately that's that's where we at because when I started I've had I'm 55 I only had two jobs my entire life I've been to the army and I've been in law enforcement I don't know nothing else. I don't I have never wanted to do anything else but that's me. But you don't have to learn politics now and so and so now we have a shortage of people wanting to be police and then the pay. Right and and I don't and civil service is a is a is a great thing um but now you gotta have the people that have the heart to do it that wants to do it because it's not an easy job.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

Well well I mean how do you how do you vet that against a shortage of officers because I mean this is just something that I think we I I think that any objective observer can see. You've got the shortage and then you've got the need to vet people who need to be police officers and sometimes those two things clash and you end up with somebody who has a badge and a gun who doesn't really need one. So I mean how I that that's sort of a catch 22 in y'all's field how how does CPD under Garland Ward attack that problem?

SPEAKER_03 37:43

If you give me I would rather have 10 good officers than a force full of bad officers. I don't want I don't believe in in quantity I don't believe in just hiring people just to hire them. You gotta have some kind of quality about yourself. I'm not just gonna feel a I don't want just a body because you're a body I want somebody that wants us that wants to be here that wants to help the people because we have to protect and be nice to the people we serve and that's the bottom line I don't do nonsense.

SPEAKER_06 38:22

Well you know a lot of towns are compensating for their lack of officers by means of technology and we've got liberty minded folks like Danny Bedwell listening to the podcast today wondering if you're gonna buy a sack full of flock cameras and put them up to surveil us. Well NOLA doesn't have all that AI stuff or does it I I don't know I'm not I'm not I'm not a Noli representative things will they'll watch what I'm eating and it'll make a profile of like who I am and what I do and how crazy I am.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Well just sick Jimothy on them it'll take care of it.

SPEAKER_03 39:07

That's a question for the Noli representative I can't I can't answer that question.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

Well um this is a bit of a curveball question and I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I might I might be hitting low on it honestly but if you're the police chief in July of last year is Officer Harris on the force to have that wrecking can I plead the field? Under advice of counseling I mean I guess how let me ask that question a different way I mean that that was a particular instance where there was an officer who had already had an off-duty DUI on his record and had served a suspension for it and was on the force still and had that wreck and then there were the things that happened after that. How how are you gonna handle situations where you have an officer who is maybe not behaving themselves off duty? I mean is it is it going to become uh because there seems to be an inconsistency or has been an inconsistency on how those things were handled.

SPEAKER_03 40:28

So how how are you gonna I guess make that consistent and is it is it gonna get uh to be stricter I am for me and I can only speak for me I am going to be stricter because I don't I look at things as if I'm writing you a ticket and taking you to jail for a DUI my standards should be the same as the laws I serve

Recruiting Challenges And Hiring Standards

SPEAKER_03 41:00

and that's the best way I could put it I mean that's really all the people want they just want the the officers to live by the same standard and then when an unfortunate event does occur as things happen um what's your plan to be more proactive in the way of transparency because I personally feel that that a year ago when all that stuff went down we were just getting smoke and mirrors I when it comes to transparency it's a it's a it's a tricky word and and for me anything that I can give that is not going to interfere with that case going forward I have no problem giving if that makes sense but when it go when it comes to the impediment of the investigation impediment of I have to stop. Right. But as far as anything else you can have I don't it's not a it's not a big deal for me.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

Well and the other thing you talked about yesterday when you spoke to the exchange club uh was the um the partnerships you said you've had lunch with the sheriff. Yes there's the partnership uh the the that you guys have uh renewed relations with MUW where they're on your radio band and and y'all are working together on uh cases that involve both uh entities uh one particularly with the sheriff's office what needs to happen there and why wasn't it I don't I don't know it was a lot of conversations that I wasn't privileged to as a as the assistant chief but so I don't know what what what went on in that realm of things but I I do know that as a as a law enforcement entity in just say the Golden Triangle we need to have partnerships with each other because West Point is what 10 miles Stockville is 20 um Caledonia is right down the street the Sheriff Department and the police department is in Lyon County as well as California all of us are in Lyon County and we're chasing the same people I guarantee you if I put 15 names on a list and take it to the Sheriff Department in West Point they probably got some of the same names on their list that I have on mine.

SPEAKER_03 43:40

And so partnerships are very important to me and I am going to do everything in my power to have relationships and partnerships with everybody in the Golden Triangle.

SPEAKER_02 43:51

Well now there seemed to be uh in the past some reticence on both sides of the sheriff's office Police department dynamic to work and play well together. How receptive was the sheriff, in your view, uh to your vision for those partnerships and working together when y'all had lunch?

SPEAKER_03 44:13

Well, from from the lunch we had, it was a great conversation, it was a great lunch, and we agreed to meet again and come up with a solution that best fit that best fits both of us. And and to be honest, the way I look at it is that Columbus Police Department unfortunately sits with a great, great thing, it sits in Lyons County. And and Sheriff Hawkins is the sheriff of Lyons County. Um and he has to be re-elected. I just have to be appointed. And so if you look at the dynamics of it, um as the sheriff of Lyons County, he is the what face of Lounge County. There's no ifs, ands, and yeah, buts about it. So as long as he can say uh if we do something jointly and he said um he gives us our thank yous and stuff like that, we're I'm I don't have no issue.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

Well, I mean, is this do you think a door could be open? Because the question that everybody in in that everybody in town is gonna ask is, is this gonna open the door back to getting metro narcotics going again?

SPEAKER_03 45:25

I I I'm hopeful. That is that is my my goal. Okay. That is my that's what I want.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

All right. So when he tells you, well, when we did this before, this was where the city dropped the ball, and this is what happened, and then we got left holding the bag with X, Y, Z. When he's telling you those things, what are you saying?

SPEAKER_03 45:49

It's a different leadership.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Okay. All right. Well, um another thing that you uh that you've mentioned before is uh getting getting people to talk to the police. Uh that's something that uh Chief Daltries mentioned. That's something that police departments all over mentioned. Uh talked I I live in Startville, I've I've talked to the uh Starville chief of police, getting people to talk talk to us when we've had, you know, we've had a major crime, we've had a violent crime, we know that dozen people saw it, and they're all acting like they don't even live in the neighborhood now. Um do you think what do you think is driving that and w how much of that do you think are people rationalizing, well

Off Duty Conduct And Transparency Limits

SPEAKER_02 46:41

despite what was done in my neighborhood or whatever, my neighbor is better than snitching to the police. Or my my my safety is better upheld by the code of silence than snitching to the police.

SPEAKER_03 47:00

I I think when you when you when you look at I'm trying not to pick the right words for the the the answer. Um you have this thing called discovery and you have all these things going on when you have a case. And and once the case goes forward and the the attorney for the the suspect asks for the discovery, you know, you have to give it to him. Right? And then sometimes there's things in that discovery. And when you give it to him, you gotta understand that he is a nine times ten, he's gonna give it to who? He's gonna give it to the person he's representing. Yeah. And so what do you think is gonna be in there?

SPEAKER_02 47:45

Right. Uh well all of the people who snitched on you.

SPEAKER_03 47:49

And so so you have to you so you have to be careful. And you have to it's a way we we have to try to figure out a way to keep that person who is willing to talk to us, who's willing to to give us what we need, we have to figure out a way to keep them safe and keep them why why can the names not be redacted in the world?

SPEAKER_02 48:09

Well, at some point somebody's gotta get on the stand, right?

SPEAKER_03 48:11

Correct, correct. Right. But if you you you if if you if you're being threatened before the trial starts, what what what are the chances that you're gonna make it and get on that stand? Right.

SPEAKER_06 48:24

It's tough. I can't think of a solution to it.

SPEAKER_02 48:28

But I mean that is that is one of the main things that you guys are fighting out in the community.

SPEAKER_03 48:33

Correct. And and and sometimes you just I don't if you have if you're in a if it's a crowd and and it and the incident just happened, I feel more comfortable with just leaving a card or passing the card out and not just giving the card to one person, just giving it to multiple people and see what happened. I don't I don't want I don't have to talk to you now. Here you go, here go my card, my name, so and just leave it. And and and it works. Um they'll call and they'll talk to you and they'll tell you what they saw. And I think they're they're hesitant to talk to you in front of people because you you have a a group of people out and you, it's a lot of people around. So if you just drop a card off, here you go.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

They can go into their private privacy of the city.

SPEAKER_03 49:22

Right, and I and I think that works more that works better than anything. Um and I think those are some of the things that we need to start doing. And even if you just you see the incident and you walk, and like we have incidents, I walk the whole neighborhood looking for ring cameras. I won't say anything, just looking. And if I find a couple, I leave and I come back and I drop a card and no one in the door. And that's it. And some of the people look and call and say, Well, I got this, and you know, we go get it.

SPEAKER_02 49:53

Okay. Well, the last question I have for you, uh uh, unless you have anything to add, um when you when you came here from Macomb, uh I spoke with as the assistant chief, I spoke with a uh a board member uh in Macomb. Uh and that that board member said uh three things about you. Said uh really good guy, heck of a police officer type to bottom. Just policing period, heck of a police officer. If there's any weakness in Garland Ward, it's administration. So I'm gonna ask this question two ways. One, I know that was three and a half years ago. Was that a fair assessment at the time? And secondly, if so, what has changed with you over over the past three and a half years that make that different now? And if it's not a fair assessment, why do you think that was the impression?

SPEAKER_03 51:01

For me, it wasn't a fair assessment. And and the reason why I say it wasn't a fair assessment is because when I got to Macomb, they didn't have anything. And they were still doing reports on paper. They didn't have body cam footage, they didn't have cars, and then they didn't have police officers. So if I was bad as an administrator, how is it now that you you were one short? We had one vacancy when I left. We had body cam, we had we had doing reports on ADSI, we had Axe on Body Camera, we was up to date. The issue came is when we had a person that retired and he wanted to buy his weapon back. And the weapon had already been given to another officer who had who had qualified with it that was in training. And I explained to them that once the officer brought the weapon back, he could buy it and we

Partnerships And Witness Safety

SPEAKER_03 52:00

can give him another one. And during that discussion, I was like, if we keep allowing people to purchase weapons and we're not replacing them, eventually we're gonna come up short. Sure. Yeah. And that's how now everybody said, oh, we're short of weapons. And so that's how that conversation started.

SPEAKER_06 52:21

That sounds like something straight out of Mayberry. But Macomb is not exactly Mayberry, so wow.

SPEAKER_03 52:29

And that's how that conversation started. That's how everything started about that. Um, and then to top it off, when they came into office, I had a one-on-one interview with every last one of them. And I asked them, what do I need to do different? And what are they seeing or what are they hearing? And every last one of them said they didn't have any problem with me, that I was doing a great job, and so forth and so on. So I don't I don't know what happened. I just know politics happened.

SPEAKER_02 53:00

Right. Well, I mean, there's pol and he's David has mentioned this several times already. There are politics here, and they're not always fair, reasonable, or rational. And so you've got to navigate that with the department under you. Yes. So I guess like what what what kind of skills, what kind of learning from the experience of maybe Macomb or just uh be an assistant under Daughtery? What have you what have you gained from that from those experiences that you feel like you can navigate Columbus politics uh better, well, however you need to?

SPEAKER_03 53:43

My take is simple. And my let my yeses be my yeses, my no's be my no's. And if I tell you I'm gonna do something and I can't do it, come back and say, hey, I tried, I can't. And if I do that and keep my integrity and my insanity, my my dignity, I am okay with how the ball falls.

SPEAKER_02 54:10

Certainly appreciate that. Uh I th I th I think that's good advice for anybody in any position. Is there anything you want to add today?

SPEAKER_03 54:17

No, I I'm just like I said, I moved here three and a half years ago. Prior to that, I have never been to Columbus. Never. I didn't know Columbus existed. And I'm speaking for me because I'm not from here. I don't and I don't want anybody to think that I'm crazy. But I I generally like it here. I love it here. I live right across the street.

SPEAKER_06 54:40

Well, I tell you what, one thing that I've noticed in our interview with you today is that you've had the humility to say the words, I don't know. Like if if we ask you something, and and even with with uh interviews elsewhere, you've you've had that ability to say, well, instead of just blowing smoke at you or making something up, I'm just gonna say I don't know the answer to that because I don't have this need to strut my chest and pretend to to be some uh expert in something that I'm maybe not an expert in. And I think that people appreciate that because that's authenticity, and that's all we want. We we want authenticity, we want transparency, and we want to be safe. And and I hope that that you will be safe, that that your officers will be safe, and that you'll help us to be safe here in the friendly city. And and with that, I just thank you for coming on the program today. Anytime. So our special guest was Mr. Garland Ward, the new police chief, and uh it was good to have him on here. I had a generally a good feeling about it. I feel like um what I see is what I get.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

Yeah. And I mean you hit the nail on the head in the interview. He's not gonna he's not gonna say he knows something that he doesn't. Um I have uh every confidence that if he needs to know it and he doesn't know it, he's gonna go find it out. And and the rapport that he has with the of his officers, uh, you know, that goes back to when he was the assistant chief. I mean, that was well known. And I think that that's something that he can uh leverage in this transition right now and really uh uh build a a cohesive department. Um I think that he seems pretty he's he seems to be pretty uh uh adamant about doing that and doing it the right way. When it comes down to it though, you hit on this too several times in the interview, and we talked about it with him at the end, the the the politics of this. With any with any police chief, it's just like it's a w police chiefs, it's different than even any other department head, really. You you've got uh almost the same level as like a mayor of a or a councilman of scrutiny on what you're doing and the politics of having to keep people happy.

SPEAKER_06 57:08

The honeymoon's not gonna last.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Well, right, but uh I would I would hope that the City of Columbus, not only the city administration and and council, but also just the residents generally would not manufacture ways to hate this guy when the honeymoon does end. Not manufacture, well, I had this one bad experience with the police department uh uh that's totally separate from Garland Ward, but because he's the chief, he must be a bad chief.

SPEAKER_06 57:42

Because you know how that goes. It's like on liar, liar, whenever he comes to this epiphany and he can't tell a lie. He's like, stop breaking the law, control.

SPEAKER_02 57:54

Yeah. But but I mean, this is a hard job, and he's not gonna do it perfectly, and sometimes when he does it right, it's gonna chafe someone. And that's just the nature of the beast with a with with uh with any kind of accountability job. And so I would just I would I would hope that the public would not look at the police department or Chief Ward in sort of a Pollyanna way where they're like, he can do no wrong, but you know, give it a fair hearing when they do have a complaint, healthy skepticism instead of cynicism, uh, that sort of thing. And uh because my favorite answer that he gave was the one right at the end. Um, I want my yeses to be my yeses and my nose to be my nose. I mean, that's that's again good advice for anybody. And it is a it's gonna be a particularly uh uh it's gonna be a particular breath of fresh air from a police chief here.

SPEAKER_06 58:54

That's all everybody's been asking for is uh quite that. And I tell you what, um probably what was most telling is what he would not say. Uh he knew when not to take debate on some of my questions. And I think not being verbose is going to be an asset for him.

SPEAKER_02 59:16

Well, and I I made mention uh a couple of times in the interview of seeing him speak. Uh I'm a member of the Exchange Club, and since we didn't record yesterday, I actually got to go to the meeting. And I got to hear him speak there. He had several opportunities where he differentiated himself from Chief Daughtery without throwing Chief Daughtry under the bus, without being uh negative toward Chief Daughtery. He did say, I am going to do this particular thing or that particular thing differently. Um the communication style and the partnerships with the sheriff's office and things like that, b uh uh being two of the things that he really centered on. That's gonna be different than what you've seen. But at the same time, he did not and does not throw his old boss under the bus. He shows him his respect. And, you know, you you've gotta you've gotta appreciate and respect that uh standpoint. I'm not gonna be chief Daughtry. I'm going to do these things different in these ways.

unknown 1:00:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:22

You know, Dautry was a good chief, Dautrey's a friend of his, and he's not gonna he's not gonna go out into the public and and talk smack about him.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:30

Yeah, taking the high road.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:32

There's so much to be said for that.

Three Things To Know And Goodbye

SPEAKER_06 1:00:34

Well, Zach, at this time, let's talk about three things we need to know.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:39

All right, three things to know. Number one, Baptist Memorial Health Care plans to add a hundred physicians to the Golden Triangle over the next five years, according to Baptist Medical Group CEO Justin Rhodes. This is in an effort to bolster Baptist footprint in the region, which now boasts hospitals in Lowndes and Octabaha counties.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:59

Number two, the long-awaited terminal expansion at Golden Triangle Regional Airport is complete. A ribbon cutting ceremony last week officially christened the expanded terminal, which will allow the airport to accommodate larger jets. Number three, driving over the railroad tracks on 10th and 14th Avenues North should be a little smoother now. Columbus and Greenville Railway repaired those crossings this week, replacing rotted cross ties and adding asphalt to make the crossings less bumpy for vehicles.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:30

Oh, thank goodness. I look, I know exactly where that is, and for years people have been going over those railroad tracks at a 45-degree angle with their vehicle and taking in excess of 30 seconds to do so. So that'll free up some traffic.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:49

It'll free up some traffic. But now the only hand now that makes one of the only main hazards in town, the uh uh what I call the Kevin Stafford surprises that are on all of the residential, these little residential roads. You go, you turn and you're going too fast. Yes, I'm going too fast, Kevin. So when you call, I am speeding when this is happening. Uh but you've got these speed humps that are like six feet high and they're and they're not painted yellow or anything. They're painted the same color as the road, so all of a sudden you're driving 40 in a 25 and you're airborne, you know. The undercarriage of your car is feeling it.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:25

Better not have any tacos in your hand. I promise you that. Good show, good show. Thanks for listening. Reach out to us, tips at cdispatch.com. You can also follow me on Facebook or X at Dchishm Double Zero and leave a public comment. Keeping it real here in Catfish Alley Studio and Historic Downtown Columbus. Your host has been Zach Player, and I am David Chisholm. Y'all stay friendly out here.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:51

I'm just a simple old country boy, but um I think that makes sense. I've stepped out and I've said what I had to say.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:58

You've been listening to Between the Headlines with Zach and David. That's what old people do.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:05

That is.