MUW Is Ready for a President. Is IHL?

MUW is not just picking a new president. MUW is fighting for its existence. We walk through the two names driving local conversation and why they represent two different toolkits. The bigger question may be about the IHL's search for a new president. Former president Nora Miller in January announced her intent to retire, but eight months later the formal application process hasn't even been opened.

Then we shift from Mississippi higher education to Columbus leadership, where a tense council meeting sparks a bigger question about municipal finance transparency. Councilman Jason Spears joins us to explain why he publishes detailed budget documents, what he’s trying to teach the public about debt and revenue streams, and why his response to criticism was, sincerely, “I’ll pray for you.” We also talk about the reality of getting anything done in city politics: strategy is great, but votes and consensus decide what becomes real.

Transcript

Cold Open And What’s Ahead

SPEAKER_01 0:01

I don't know what he has come up with today to talk about. I'm not asking you to hide anything. No, put it out there. Let the people see it.

SPEAKER_04 0:10

I've never not worked in a hostile working department.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

You can't argue with anybody when they're putting facts in your face. Zach, that's a hard question. I have no answer for it. From the opinion page of the commercial dispatch. This is between the headlines.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

This week on the young and the ro uh excuse me, this week on Between the Headlines, wrong show. We'll start with who should be the next president of MUW. There are two names in the forefront of the discussion. Also, more dysfunction within city leadership. This time it is a urination contest between Councilman Spears, who is also our guest today, and CFO Jim Brigham. Zach and I have the tape measure, and you are streaming between the headlines.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Very nice, nicely done.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

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MUW President Search Gets Political

SPEAKER_03 2:14

All right, you're listening to another episode of Between the Headlines. Your host is the managing editor of the dispatch, Mr. Zach Player. My name's Dave Chisholm. Top of the agenda today, who should be the next president of MUW and Zach, it's been a while since things have really moved in that regard yet. Are they moving in in any real capacity?

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

Yeah, I hadn't seen a whole lot. I know uh Mr. Scott Tollison, great guy. He's the interim now. Yeah. And I would expect that he's in no particular hurry to see things move along.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Well, I mean, maybe not. He may be applying, may not. He hasn't said publicly, I don't guess, yeah uh whether he will be. Um but you've got so let's look at the timeline here. You've got uh some time ago, you had a couple of uh legislators in our delegation put forward, hey, Sally Birchfield Doty, former state senator, W alumna. That's our person. And we think that she should be in top consideration, even asked for an expedited search process, which the IHL can do for something like this. Anoint her at this time. Yes, yes, anoint her at this time. She is our person. Let's go. Um she wants the job.

SPEAKER_05 3:36

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Said as much. Yeah. And then you've got this other committee of uh very, I mean, uh we're we're not talking about nobody's in the community. We're talking about people who uh have a vested interest in the community, have a long history in the community in a lot of these cases, and want the W to succeed. Well, they came at it from a different perspective and drafted someone else, Dr. Doris Taylor, who is um uh widely considered the university's most accomplished alumna. Yeah, you know, big shot surgeon. Pioneer in the medical field, pioneer in heart transplants, uh business owner, uh very accomplished person. Well, they bring a letter to this this committee takes a letter to IHL, hand delivers it, gives us a copy of it. We put out there, hey, we've got a second person who has been drafted into this picture. We interview this lady, she says, Yes, I want the job, and here's why I think that I'm the best person for it. So now you've got two very capable applicants who are very different. So let's so let's start talking about that. What do you what do you think just about those two? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:55

Full disclaimer, I don't know either of these ladies personally. Uh in fact, being an MUW graduate myself, somebody probably just took offense to the fact that I use the word ladies, but be that the case, these women, very intelligent women, very bright women, very accomplished women. Um one is a politician, and I'm not saying that in the negative sense. Sure. The other is a scholar. Okay. MUW needs both of them things. All right. And I'm not saying that they don't share those characteristics, but they're they're definitely lopsided one of each. What I can tell you is looking at this, MUW needs a friend in the legislature right now. Yeah. And and and MUW has been under scrutiny, unfairly so. I think the ones who've been scrutinizing MUW don't know its history, don't know its accomplishments, don't know what a great deal it is as a student.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

Well, okay, so but MUW, let's be honest with let's be honest with each other right now. Uh MUW has spent a little bit of time getting in its own way, uh uh especially in recent years. Oh, yeah. Um the way that the name change was handled and how that uh g got the legislature zeroed in on whether to fold that place into MSU, the issues with MSMS and how all of those were handled, I I think that MUW has done a lot to get in its own way. Which is going to come to my point. The question here when you look at these two people is I think that you can make a very fine argument that if you're looking long term and you're looking at sustainability and you're looking at university operations, and I don't know either one of these ladies either, and I could be talking out of turn, but we're just talking about on paper, right? Well, that's what we do here sometimes. So we're just talking about on paper. Long term, you want a Doris Taylor, you want a Dr. Doris Taylor, if you're looking at, okay, ten years from now, fifteen years from now, what does this university look like? But you've got to have a long term in order to think long term. And right now, the war on whether the W is going to be here in its current state that's not over yet. As a matter of fact, you you might argue that it's really only just begun. They're gonna start firing the the big cannons when these committees start making recommendations. And they're going to close. The legislature is hell bent on closing universities that they can close if they deem that they need to close. And the W is on that chopping block whether they like it or not. So also the W is underfunded, the W has facilities issues, this the W has branding issues. So you gotta have a long term in order for long-term solutions to matter. And even Dr. Taylor says in her interview with us that you agreed in the Thursday dispatch, I wish we could be co-presidents, because we we both need to be there.

SPEAKER_03 8:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

When you're looking at Sally Birchfield Doty, you're talking about someone who can walk into the state capitol, know where everybody's office is, and and and know all of the skeletons in the closet, and know how to navigate that situation in such a way, at least on paper, it seems that she can navigate the situation in such a way as to where she can get in very short order or has the best chance in the shortest order to get the W in a better footing, to get the W off the chopping block, to get the W, to make the W a we we don't mess with them. And so if you're looking at it from a standpoint of what the highest and best need at the W is right now, it's survival. And if you're looking at these two people specifically on paper, Sally Birchfield Doty looks like the best candidate for survival right now in the war the W is in. Now, you know, you're so your Winston Churchill, if you will. Your uh Clement Attlee, if you will, would be more of the Doris Taylor would be more in that uh camp, I would think. Now that may be unfair to her. I don't know her personally. She may could uh she may could go and and do all of those things just as well, but she would have to learn it on the job. And and she would have to she would have to pick that up as she went, she would have to be advised on that. Sally Birchfield Doty

Survival Versus Long Term Leadership

SPEAKER_02 9:52

walks into the place and says, I need to talk to so-and-so now, can get the audience and can put the pressure on the right people. At least on paper, that's how it appears.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

A couple things come to mind, and and I agree, Zach. My one concern about Dr. Taylor is that simply because she's uh an accomplished woman in all these different regards, you know, she's she's uh a a researcher, she's all these different things. Does that necessarily mean that she's the best leader? Okay. And when I say leader, uh what I promise I don't mean this condescending because I don't know the lady, but I don't want it to be a reward hire, okay? She's been such a fantastic and accomplished alum. She needs to be our president alumna. Now, that said, it's coming to my mind here that I would favor seeing these two women and other candidates, whoever they may be, put on a platform like a presidential debate. And I'm serious, just just uh live stream it, do the whole thing, put it out there in the open and and ask all the hard questions, and then um just let the uh public have their way. I tell you what, that that's just an idea. Excuse me.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

Um I think Dr. Taylor speaks well for herself. I think if you read the story that's in the paper today, Thursday, um, that you'll see that. I think that her her work in the field where she's an expert speaks for itself. I think the her her business acumen speaks for itself. So I don't question her ability to run the day-to-day operations of a university and make good decisions that would be long-term, strategic, et cetera. I don't question that. I don't have the I don't have enough information to question that. I'm taking what I know of her and giving the rest of it the benefit of the doubt, just like we are with uh Miss Birchfield Doty, that her political um acumen would be a boon to the university in these other ways. So I I'm I'm not questioning any of that. Either way you go here, you get a good president of the W. I think so. In all likelihood. It's just the uh that Maslow's hi hierarchy of needs, what do you need right now, and how much more of a priority should right now be than 10 or 15 years from now? And I think that when you're looking at uh Ms. Birchfield, Dodie, and Dr. Taylor, that's really the that's really the argument you're having over who's best to appoint today. But they may not either one be it.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

May not either be recommended to the finalists.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Because there's a bigger problem going on right now that nobody's talking about, and I'm about to talk about it.

Why IHL Is Dragging The Process

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Oh boy, let me take a sip of Red Bull here. What you got, Zach? Nora Miller publicly announced that she intended to retire. She announced that in January. January. Um it's damn near September. The process, the application process for the president's uh job to replace her hasn't really even started yet. They're not having serious kinds, they've had a couple of listening sessions, but they're not talking about the search process. They IHL had a meeting today. The border the IHL board had a meeting today. They didn't do anything about this, didn't talk about it. You've got legislators putting people forward or putting a person forward. You've got the community where this university is putting another person forward. Both of them are highly qualified, highly accomplished people, different skill sets. We've talked about that. But they haven't even acknowledged, they did at least acknowledge that they got uh the letter from the group on Dr. Taylor. But they haven't even acknowledged who they're considering. You've got legislators asking them for an expedited search when they put forward Miss Birchfield Doty. Like they can expedite this search. Yes, they can. Did they? No. They appointed an interim president, started a semester of school, had an entire semester of school while uh Nora was a lame duck, and we wish her well in her retirement, by the way. For sure. Um had a summer and now started another semester, and we've done nothing. And you've got people clamoring, bringing you names that have value. So who is dragging? Hope in the process, get it going, and let's get somebody appointed, right?

SPEAKER_03 14:48

Who who exactly is dragging ass? That's what I want to know.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

The IHL board is dragging ass.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

Okay, so the IHL. All right. Let's look at them for a second.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

You got what, 12 of them?

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Twelve members. And a quarter of them have very strong ties to the Golden Triangle.

SPEAKER_03 15:06

Yeah. One of the the president's from West Point, isn't he? I believe so, yeah. So we ought to have an ability within that group to move the needle in a way that favors higher education, specifically in the Golden Triangle. You would think, what are these bureaucrats doing?

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Well, I mean, and you've got, you know, they've they're recognizing and and I first of all, um Scott Dollison's a good guy.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

He may very well apply for this position, he may very well get it. Fine.

SPEAKER_03 15:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Um, he's put his credentials out there just like these other like just like these two uh women did, but that's fine. But when you've got a very obvious situation where you've got a university under fire, you've known for nine months that you were gonna have this opening. You've got legislators and community members drafting very highly qualified alumni who want the job.

SPEAKER_03 16:11

They're doing the job of the IHL for them.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

For them to some extent. And then you have a meeting today where you're like where m Mr. Tilson's there, Scott Tilson's there, and they're like, hi Scott. And then they don't do anything else. That's what the hell is up with that? Uh because I mean, look, uh I can tell you right now, um, as someone who is a hiring manager where I am uh at the paper, um depending on the time of year, depending on the job market, depending on a whole lot of things, there's sometimes where we have a reporter opening and we have to advertise for that for several months before we get a qualified candidate.

SPEAKER_05 16:53

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

But there's other times where we get uh a couple or several qualified candidates, and that's a good day.

SPEAKER_04 17:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

And we get off of our duff and we try to talk to those people in a timely manner.

SPEAKER_03 17:07

Like that's what we do. Do you ever have a situation though where you have um someone who's working a specific area of the paper and and they're kind of an interim, kind of part-time, and they're cheap, all right, just being real. And you say, well, let's keep them for a while to save a little bit of money, not really be in a hurry, because that may be what the legislature's doing here. You know, I don't know, Scott Tollison. I don't think look, look, first of all, uh Well, we don't have enough money to hire both of them.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

I or right. I don't think that the money or whatever economi I I don't think that that's the issue here. I think when the legislature the money's not the issue. Well, no, I'm talking about in the context that you that you mean. I think the issue here may very well be that I told you the war wasn't over. Maybe slow walking this process for appointing a president is the way that they've decided to wage the war. That's what I'm saying. If we were taking this seriously, you've got, all right, let's just say that you've got Scott that says, actually, I don't want to just be the interim, I want the job. Then you've got three candidates with resumes and interest and and and and real stakes in this that can talk about it. All right. Why aren't we doing that?

SPEAKER_03 18:33

I I mean immediately it comes to my mind that we're gonna slow roll this out, as you said. And uh the the part that that aggravates me is we've we've got three or four do-nothings on the IHL board who either don't want to assert themselves in this matter, don't care about the golden triangle.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Or they're waiting on their directions from from from Governor Reeves or Lieutenant Governor Hosman. Or Dabar. Yeah. This is what you're gonna do, and this is when you're gonna do it. And none of those things are good for the state, and none of those things are good for the W, and none of those things are good for higher education in in the state, because you can get a high-quality education at the W. And the tuition is uh very reasonable, especially compared to the other universities uh in the state. Um you uh and you can get you there are degree programs at the W that if you are a W graduate in those degree programs, you are highly sought after. Yes. Nursing being among them, education being another one. Absolutely they're building up their culinary uh program. And then, you know, even uh I know that that it's division three, but you've got we we to we had uh uh Dean Burroughs in here with their athletic department not too long ago, and that that what was that two weeks ago that we had him in here? That's an excited guy doing really good work in putting uh people who come to that uh university to get their degree while also playing a sport on a pretty high level for that division, and making that some making that a source of community pride. There's a lot of stuff going on out there that doesn't need to be put into a burn pile and lit. So get with it, IHL.

SPEAKER_03 20:33

Mm-hmm. I think the solution, and I'll close with this, Zach. We need someone in the likeness and image of Clyda Stokes Rent, who is gonna pick up a staff and point it at those men folk down in the legislature and hold their feet to the fire and they're gonna be scared to cross that lady.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Well, and and and if I'm right, what that means is that when the smoke clears, they're not gonna put somebody in the position that can do that.

SPEAKER_03 21:07

You heard it right here on Between the Headlines. Hot take, Mr. Zach. Hot take. So in our Between the Headlines

Listener Pushback And Public Debate Idea

SPEAKER_03 21:15

podcast community, if you're not a member of that, please join. Look us up on Facebook. Uh lots of fun stuff there. Uh what we're trying to do, of course, Zach, is make this interactive and we post uh in as much as we know, we post what we're gonna talk about, and we like to get listener feedback. And we've got some comments. Tina Morgan comments by Roots and Columbus. I assume you mean being W graduates, because Sally, who was one of her classmates, is not a native of Columbus. And um Bob Raymond uh comments that since the W is not a research university, I don't see what good her ability to attract grants would have for the W. I'm not sure I agree with that. I don't agree with that. You know, is they do. Do a lot of research and I think the tag of a a research university is is more of a a legal designation than anything.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

I mean, granted, they're not out there like UAB helping cure cancer and things like that, but but uh Well I mean I would submit to Bob Raymond that uh uh Dr. Taylor herself has the career that she had after she left the W. So I mean if the W can uh uh uh generate more graduates that are that accomplished in those types of fields, I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 22:34

All right.

Jason Spears Joins And Explains The Prayer

SPEAKER_03 22:35

We will at this time invite into Catfish Alley Studio Mr. Jason Spears. Come on in, brother. All right, welcome in here, you green-eared whipper snapper. How's the hop knobbing going, Mr.

unknown 22:49

Spears?

SPEAKER_06 22:51

Uh very well. It's going really well.

SPEAKER_03 22:53

Somebody's gotta do it, you know.

SPEAKER_06 22:55

I believe we do, yes.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Well, let me let me ask you a question. Just how earnest and how detailed was this prayer for Jim Brigham?

SPEAKER_06 23:04

Very sincere. Okay. Very sincere. I believe that we all need prayer from people we don't even realize we're praying for.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

Now, Jason, I learned in middle school the hard way. Don't tell nobody you're gonna pray. Just pray for them. But if you tell them you're gonna pray with them, you might as well just say you and be done with it.

SPEAKER_06 23:26

Well, that's not how I think. But yeah, bless your heart would have been a different commentary.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

So let's talk about this. A little background here. Tuesday night, um there were there was a a a little bit of a conversation, a back and forth you had presented, uh uh a pretty detailed or you were given a summary of a pretty detailed uh budget planning uh document that you had issued to the public, put on the a agenda, distributed to uh administration and your fellow council members. And uh it kind of turned into an argument about whether you were doing city CFO Jim Brigham's job for him, and he took umbrage and w was was pretty direct with you. At the end of that, you said, you know, I'll pray for you. I'm I'm assuming, and well, instead of me assuming what you meant, I mean, I guess why was that your response to the criticisms that he offered?

SPEAKER_06 24:31

Well, I you know, I'll I'll just be straightforward and honest with you, but it w you know it wasn't a it is an assumption because I truly have learned after many years on the school board that prayer is the best way forward in a lot of situations. Um and so it was not like a back of the hand type of comment. It was sincere in what I meant by it.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

So but there was no implication there that he was maybe not representing the truth in his statements.

SPEAKER_06 24:59

I mean, I don't I mean he stated what he stated, but at the same time, I mean, these these details we talked about in our last finance committee meeting. Uh he and I had a very long discussion about it. So all the notes that were compiled into the report were basically a structured way of everything we discussed. So um this isn't something, you know, this is just one more iteration of the information I put out at the last budget hearing, uh kind of an analysis of the debt and the riven revenue sources that would be tied to paying those debts in the upcoming budget year. So it's only a continuation of the information I continue to build. I put another thing out this morning about the differences in villages and different things. So it's just the nature of how planning is done. And it may be an alternative way than what is thought of in you know municipal government, um, but it shouldn't be. And I'm just trying to streamline those aspects that you know I ran on the platform of and got elected to do and represent to bring those talents to. And and it wasn't something that I created out of thin air. All the information comes from him. And and also all those details, we had discussions. I mean, we've had um, you know, finance committee meetings and you know agendas put forward to where we've had everybody at the table. So um I just go back to the bottom line is that you know people kind of have their moments, and that may have been that particular moment for him, but you know, that's goes back to why I really did take the time to pray for him because it was, you know, I've I've learned the hard way, unfortunately, over my lifetime of of service that you have to be able to pause and rethink and see how that you can be cooperative and collaborative in what you're trying to achieve as a whole, rather than feeling like that, you know, that moment may not necessarily give you the credit you want in out of it.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Okay, well, I mean, fine, and I understand what you're saying there, but the the implication there, specifically from the confusion expressed by Vice Mayor uh Ethel Stewart and the disappointment and offense expressed by Mr. Brigham. The implication there was that you had uh expanded your role as finance committee chair into the role of CFO and were not letting him as such do that job fully.

Breaking Down City Debt For The Public

SPEAKER_02 27:30

And so I want to give you an opportunity to respond to that implication.

SPEAKER_06 27:34

That's a strong assumption and implication on your part. I don't know if that's so.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

I mean, I'm I think if I'm taking if I'm taking Jim's word for what he's saying and I'm taking Ethel's word for if he's the CEFO and we're paying him to do this, why are you doing it? I don't think I'm assuming that that that's the implication.

SPEAKER_06 27:53

Well, I think that at the bottom, the the the basic premise of the fact is that I was elected to manage and safeguard the city finances. That's at the core of everybody who is elected to protect the safe. You know, I I don't look good in different colors than what I'm wearing today. So I want to make sure that every dot dot's there on the I's and the cross is on the T's. Um and so I think it just goes back to what we are attempting to do is just different than anything that has happened in the past. Whether someone realizes that maybe we haven't had someone that has the background I have in finance, and so that's why it's so new and and certainly seems to be controversial. Uh, it's not. It just should be a good way of of a good measure of how we're trying to move the city forward in the financial department working together. I really, even after the other night, I d I don't feel like that, you know, Mr. Jim and I had a sit-down just the other morning because I just wanted to go by and get some more information and different things. There wasn't any hard feelings, there wasn't any gnashing of the teeth, there wasn't any issues there. Um and so I think that you know, if you sensationalize the situation, sure, it it runs its cycle, but at the bottom line, we're still collectively working together to strengthen the financial, you know, you know, procedures and reporting to the public and things that that we are there to do. And and and just to go a little bit further about the the bottom line of what my role is in it, and what I've had so many people ask about is they don't understand the information. They're told pay your tax bill and get what you get. Right. I'm trying to break it down on a fundamental level. And we're talking about things. I hate to say primary colors in the coloring box so that everyone can say, I start here, I need more information. Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:41

So this is our debt, this is how we can retire, this is what can we re we can retire this year, these are our revenue streams, this is how that's grown over time, those types of things.

SPEAKER_06 29:51

Exactly. And and I think that's how you really get the community or the community behind initiatives that come up that sometimes people don't want to talk about because it's like, well, it's gonna cost me more money, or I'm gonna have to sacrifice things. If you really show and deliver people information that they can internalize and ask pointy questions or just feel like that they're informed now, that's gonna allow us to get to that next level of where we're going.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

Yeah, but the uh you're talking about getting it out to the public, and I do feel like that's important for the public to understand to the best of their ability and to the highest of their willingness, uh, what is happening. But when it comes down to it, you need you and three others to get this across.

SPEAKER_06 30:36

Correct. Well, to to help people understand the information, it only takes one person.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

No, but I mean implement these strategies, you need one uh you need you and three other people.

SPEAKER_03 30:47

Correct. You know what I heard on that matter? It was almost like, God forbid that you put this helpful, well-prepared information out for the people to look at. It's like Facebook is some big bag, big, bad, ugly, transparent world, and why should it go out there for the people to see it? Let's put it out there, let the people Why do that when instead you've got to go through the gatekeeper? You've got to go through the CFO. Who anointed this man as the gatekeeper to the city finances where you have to go through him and let him be your mouthpiece?

SPEAKER_06 31:25

I mean, I think that's your take on it. I don't see it that way.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

Um that was his take on it based on what he said.

SPEAKER_06 31:33

I mean, I just go back to is that since I before I actually took office and was sworn in, you know, I've I've got a notebook of June late June list of questions. I sit down with him, talk about Tiff and everything. So this is an ongoing dialogue that has been really going on for a long period of time. And really the the side of it is that, you know, I'm not gonna shy back from what I know people need to know. Like myself, I feel I'm more informed than most, even on the school district, the county finances, and different things, because this is what I enjoy and this is what I do. But when it comes to making hard decisions about how we're going to be able to create new revenue sources, how we're gonna be able to pay down debt and different things, that's every household inside the city limits, and you need to understand it. You may not care to understand it, that is your choice. But the bottom line is that you need to have the opportunity. You're gonna have the opportunity. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

And I think that that's very valuable.

SPEAKER_06 32:24

Well, in my opinion, it is, and that's why I have taken the time. I mean, this is me taking the time to do it outside of my normal work. Yeah, I don't know. Now, granted, I have systems and things of how I do it, right? Uh, so I'm more efficient than probably a person just taking the raw data and trying to put it together. Sure. But but at the same time, it's in my opinion, it and that's just my opinion. I've I've heard, I gotta make sure I stress that. Um, in my opinion, I need to make sure that the information is clear, that it's correct, yes, and it's concise.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

Right.

SPEAKER_06 32:59

Because nobody wants to le read a just raw data.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

And this was pretty this the this was a pretty detailed thing that was just in what, eight, ten pages, somehow, something like that. But I want to go back to the point that I was that I wanted to broach a while ago. No matter who understands it or doesn't in the uh proletariat, as it were, in the citizenry, you've got to have you and three others to get this across. So let me just ask you this question this way. And and and I and I'm certainly not trying to this certainly isn't meant to be a gotcha question. It's supposed to be a thoughtful one. You're obviously uh a very qualified, very accomplished financial professional that knows what you're talking about. Uh you're obviously a very strategic person who can form strategies and and and explain them. And and you obviously care about the city. You're obviously, as you mo mentioned, you're trying to put uh put forward new ways to go about things, new ways to think about things, new discussion items when it comes to budgeting and budget planning. And in all of that, and in your professional life, probably in your personal life, you uh solve for variables and you've shown in other capacities that you're very good at solving for variables. So given all of that, how do you not solve for Ethel Tuesday night? And how do you not come to the table knowing that you've got to have you and three others to get this thing across?

SPEAKER_06 34:35

Well, I mean, uh let me just speak to you know the vice mayor. We have a good relationship. It sometimes may on the surface look, but I mean we talk, you know, you know, we she asks questions, you know, maybe not as much as others, but she's a very smart lady, very intuitive, and and she wants it, you know, she obviously realizes certain areas like in the finance may be my strong suit versus other things. Um but everyone on that council has been over at my office at one time or another to sit down and understand how to read the docket, the coding, and everything. So so it's not something to where I show up and I make my discussions or I present my reports, whatever. I just like any continuing education, whatever, I I always offer that. You know, if people have questions, they know I'm a uh a resource for that. And so so I feel like that more than anything, it's not just a Jason's doing this to upstage us. People realize that I'm basically grabbing on to you know the load that we need to pull up the hill and pulling as hard as I can in the Trevor Burrus.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

But I guess I mean to the question, uh do you feel like there's something that needs to tactically change in your approach and delivery on these things that you're putting together to increase the chances that they actually come to be?

SPEAKER_06 35:51

I mean, I don't see anything that I'm doing wrong that would prevent them from that.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 35:57

I mean, unless there's something you would suggest I'm doing wrong.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Well, I'm I'm just asking the question, Jason. Well, no, I agree. And and Ethel and Ethel asked you essentially the same question Tuesday night.

SPEAKER_06 36:07

And if you go back and listen to my response to her, I said that I'm working alongside of her, alongside of Mr. Jim, which I have been doing all along.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

Yeah, if he goes miles, you go ten. Well, that's correct. That's that's how teamwork works. Do you think, just given the history of our city within the past ten years, some people have an okay picture of it, some people have a very dire picture of it. But given that history, nonetheless, do you think that certain members of the council might be a little bit of an in a little bit intimidated by an exhaustive, comprehensive, uh, really involved plan that's kind of coming out of the blue in the sense that you you're the new guy in town. Or it's different ways of thinking about things than what's been done before. You've never done it that way, right?

SPEAKER_06 37:01

Well, I I don't feel like I mean the council that I get to serve the opportunity to serve with are great independent thinkers on their own right. They offer, and a lot of the details that you know you kind of give me credit for as far as well, I compiled them and put them together are derived from their thought processes and what they've offered up and things. And it's put into a cohesive plan that you can really then look at and determine is this the path forward, or do we need to sidestep this and strike it out? So, I mean, to say that it's all rooted in me, none of the information it comes from the business office of finance, a lot of the different details or discussions we've had in the finance committee. Ms. Ethel was a part of that, um, Mr. Brigham, the mayor and others, uh, Mr. Garrett. So, so there's a lot of different influences in the plan that was put together. It's not just a mandate decreed by me. It is all of those different things. I just happen to know how to assemble them into a format that everyone, including anyone outside of the council room, can look through it and decide, hey, yeah, it makes sense. Or why did they do that?

SPEAKER_02 38:02

Well, then why didn't they show up to back you when the time came?

SPEAKER_06 38:06

I think you take silence sometimes as reluctance to participate. And that isn't always. Sometimes that's a sign of that's a sign of intelligence.

unknown 38:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 38:18

Um, is to learn how to like know that like, hey, what's out here and what we're talking about is exactly what we're we're working toward a a final product on. Um and again, I go back to that, you know, um Miss what Ms. Stewart said, I mean, that's that's fine for her to ask that question, just like any other council person in different things. But I don't think that there was malice in her asking it. I don't think that I mean and and and well, had I had I really thought through it more, I I would but then it would have been taken out of context.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

But there was but she was confused.

SPEAKER_06 38:56

It wasn't confusion, but what I will say is this is that, you know, had I stated, like, for example, and I'm not thinking this way, why don't you do these reports or any of these other things, then that may have come across as that I'm saying that he's not doing his job well. And I think Mr. Job, Mr. Brigham does his job well. And there's just like your job or anybody else's job, there's nothing that hurts to having someone else with a collective effort and understanding that wants to help push the needle further and everything. And so, you know, I don't think it was something to where it creates a dysfunctional situation. If anything, I think it strengthens the system more, which is kind of in a way contrary to where things may have happened in the past. There's no one on that council I serve with that go from meeting to meeting like, well, I'm gonna show them next time. I there's no mindset that exists on the council that way. We are collectively as a unit realizing that we we are wanting better for our city, and we're working every day to make that part of. Are we gonna have disagreements? 100% of the time that's gonna happen because someone doesn't think of it the same way. Are we gonna use that against the other person to get our way? Absolutely not. And that's a complete difference than what may have happened in the past.

SPEAKER_03 40:09

Jason,

Amphitheater Numbers And Subsidy Reality

SPEAKER_03 40:10

real quick, you had mentioned the amphitheater. Do you think that's going to be something that has to be subsidized? I mean, your premise in the document was that it was going to be a net negative. Not everyone thinks that. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_06 40:24

I guess it depends on who you ask, and I just asked the calculator. So I think it depends on the shows. I think it depends on a lot of the other moving parts, you know, food, drink, beverage, selling, you know, uh premium packages and all that as to how close you get to it. Um I can't say with any certainty that it's gonna lose money or win or make money because nothing's, you know, it's not happening at the moment, and we don't know who's gonna be booked and everything. I'm optimistic that it will provide not only just the benefit to the community of having it here and it will grow in the years future that will allow more and more revenue to come from it.

SPEAKER_03 41:01

But on paper you were conservative about it.

SPEAKER_06 41:03

I I was conservative about it because you have to be conservative. I mean, I there's a lot of moving parts that we as a council haven't even been uh informed about. And I think until we put pen to paper and see what you have to sacrifice in your normal operations to make that happen, it's too tough to make that judgment call right now because uh we have a lot of needs that we're still catching up on. Um and just to say we want this nice to have now, uh, what are you gonna give up to do it? And I think we're closer than ever of really being able to see how things measure out. Um, but it is it it I mean, any startup, like whether it's in business or whatever, it's gonna be heavily subsidized and probably lose money on the front end. It depends on how it's managed going forward as to how quickly it becomes profitable. And and that's the bigger thing for me. It's like I want to see very detailed explanations about not just uh what shows are gonna be here and who's gonna do this and who's gonna do that. The numbers have to work. And you have to decide, well, we just can't be this scale because the numbers will never work if we do it that way. Uh, that's something that we haven't really uh seen that. And I've I've actually been to some of their meetings recently and made notes about things and have strategized and formulated and tried to get, and that's why I came to the conclusion I did uh at this point.

SPEAKER_03 42:24

So part of the issue at at that meeting was uh simply who gets to take credit. And you know, I I tell you what, I've heard you taking

Hosts Analyze The Brigham Blowup

SPEAKER_03 42:35

the high road in here. I thank you for advocating for the high road, thank you for advocating for the city, and thank you for being a guest here today.

SPEAKER_06 42:43

Appreciate that very much.

SPEAKER_03 42:44

Uh you know, to be honest with you, Zach, I can see, even though he wouldn't admit it, I can see how a lot of people would be intimidated by uh just his his forcefulness and his authority in the realm of finance. And I think that a lot of people I won't say a lot of but enough of them are rubbed the wrong way by it, and it ought not be so. What say you?

SPEAKER_02 43:10

Well, I I I've got a couple of points I want to make on this, and I'll start with um I asked Jason about this a little bit to and he spoke for himself on this, but I think that there's a a very a very strong difference between being strategic and being tactical. And uh I think that Jason is a very strong strategic thinker, which is to say long-term planning and good ideas and ways to implement those good ideas. I think from a tactical and political standpoint, at least, where this is concerned, he b showed a pr a he showed an unfortunate lack of awareness because Ethel was confused why he was the one talking about this. Said as much. Those were her words.

SPEAKER_03 44:02

Let me ask you about that though. Dude, he he had the report, and you and I read the report, and it was put out there, and he just kind of put it up for discussion. And then out of nowhere, and this is mysterious to me, out of nowhere, Ethel says what she says.

SPEAKER_02 44:19

Which is why are you talking about this and not Jim?

SPEAKER_03 44:22

And then Jim stands up and he goes into his rant. And I've got to tell you, it just I'm gonna get at that in a second. But But what I'm saying to you is it felt prepared. It felt like something happened behind the scenes before that meeting. Opinions or those of the speaker.

SPEAKER_02 44:40

Well, I mean, uh Jim spoke with the forcefulness of someone with the wind at his back. He certainly did. But at the same time, as smart as Jason is, as strategic as Jason is, Jason's got to get a little more tactical. He's g and we've talked about this before on the show, you've got to get those three other votes. You've got to uh put together a plan, whether you whether you believe there's a consensus or not, you've got to be certain that there's a consensus. And when you're called out on the point of how are we going to build consensus to this idea, who was involved in these discussions, why isn't the person we're paying to give this report giving this report? What is going on here? I don't think Jason did a very good job explaining himself at the meeting. And I'm not I, you know, I think that he did a very good job explaining his position and his passion today, but I still don't think he answered that question of how do you get those other three votes to get this implemented. And and those and and if there is a weakness in the game, in Jason's game, it is that it is that tactical uh unpreparedness or unawareness that in order to get anything done in the way that I am trying to put it forward, I've got to have three others with me. And even better still is if I have uh five others with me. And even better still is if I have the mayor with me, and maybe the CFO is um uh seconding all of this. But uh uh but but he exposed an opportunity to to be counter-attacked, and he was, and that's the tactical thing that I'm talking about. That doesn't that is not to say that his ideas are bad. It's not to say that his passion is misplaced, it's not to say any of those things. It's just to say that you've got to have an awareness that if you want to get anything done in city politics, it's gotta be you and three others, at least.

SPEAKER_03 46:47

Real quick, is it the same mistakes that Keith Gaskin made?

SPEAKER_02 46:52

They're very similar, if you want to know the truth. And I don't think that they're being done necessarily. I I think that there's some nuance to that, but I think that uh Keith's fatal flaw was very similar in that he struggled to build consensus because and he did have very good ideas at times that he knew were idea uh that he knew were great ideas, and if you didn't believe him just to ask him, he'd tell you. And I think that that is a trap that through Keith we can see what the results were there. And I think that Jason can and does sometimes run the risk of falling in the same hole.

SPEAKER_03 47:30

Well, it it felt like two very different personalities running up against the same wall that I thought, you know, wasn't there anymore. Yeah. Um and that wall came forth through the mouth of Jim Brigham, who someone anointed as the high priest of Columbus, who has somehow who has atoned for our sins of the past what is going on.

SPEAKER_02 47:58

If we're gonna get a little biblical here, I I have aught against Jim, and I'm gonna tell you what it is. Um and I'm gonna point to something that he said Tuesday night that you pointed out on the Facebook post in the in the between the headlines group where he said uh uh something to the effect of it's my finance.

SPEAKER_03 48:17

This is my finance department. I represent the citizens of this city, and I am protecting the money of this city.

SPEAKER_02 48:24

End quote. This is my finance department. I want to David, you know, that reminds me of a scene from one of my favorite movies, Miracle. Do you know it? Okay, well, for the uninitiated, that's the that's the movie about the 1980 U.S. hockey team that beat the Russians and then beat Finland, won the Olympic gold medal. But there's a scene in that movie that's uh uh that that reminded me of, and it was um U.S. had just lost big in this exhibition game. And the coach sidles up to the goalie after that game. He says, I think I'm thinking of sitting you down. Uh the goalie gets apoplectic, and he's like, You can't do that. That's my net, man. And then the coach looks at him just very calmly and says, They just scored 10 goals. Right now it's everybody's net. Well, this Mickens mess happened entirely under Jim's watch. Um this uh the the the issues with the invoices, especially the invoice that uh Mickens walked in and another person's name demanded it be paid, and Jim's finance department paid that invoice. Then later on, the auditors come and say, the state auditor's office come and say, Hey, give us records of this and this and this. Well, Jim gathered all those records, ostensibly looked at all of those records, and then gave those records to the auditor. Those records in that investigation yielded charges against Mickens related to bid rigging and bad invoices. Whoops. Um then you take that. The day Mickens is arrested, I'm in Jim's office asking him specifically about that bad invoice that Mickens brought in himself and somebody else's name that was paid. And he says to me, and it's in the paper, um, I I'm entirely unaware of that happening, but if it did, it would have been a violation of controls. So right now it's everybody's finance department, maybe except for Jim's. And Mickens certainly thought it was his at one time, and if it's going to be absconded with that easily, better Jason than Mickens. That's what I have to say about that.

SPEAKER_03 50:34

Oh. It was tense. It was tense. I felt like everybody in that council needed a valium.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

Well, and another thing, and it was a point that Jim uh tried to attack Jason on at that meeting Tuesday, was he makes the statement that, oh, well, these audits that we're so far behind on, I'm working on this daily, and I take specific offense at the fact that Jason says that we need to get somebody to handle that. Well, here's some information. When Jim took over the finance department in 2022, they were working on the 2020 audit that had been mired in lateness and all of that. Okay. So they were two years behind on their audits. In the four years Jim has been here, they've completed three audit reports. That is to say that they're a year further behind now than they were when Jim got here, and I'll leave that there.

SPEAKER_03 51:31

Oh boy. Um listen, that rant uh left me speechless. Yeah. Okay. I could break it apart piece by piece, but but the the highlights of it were quite simply, you know, he starts off saying it was refreshing to have the a city councilman who was actually interested in finances, but then he goes on to say, but this is why you should butt out of it. Okay. And and and and he credits the prior council, gives no mention of to Keith Gaskin, interestingly. Um, and then he says later on, he says that that he and his crew are doing the hard work of paying the bills.

SPEAKER_02 52:11

Yeah, including the bill that Mickens wanted paid for his buddy.

SPEAKER_03 52:14

Well, and and not even to mention the point that it's actually you and I that end up paying them. I'll stay out of that.

SPEAKER_02 52:21

But um Yeah, I I thought that that was poor form on his part, especially considering that all of the information that Jason uh compiled for that did come from his office. And so uh and I don't no more believe that there weren't conversations. They may have disagreed in those conversations. Jason may have said they may have said two different things and Jason took his own side and went on. Now that's possible. But the the idea that you can sit here one day and say, I had no idea that this and this and this was happening under my purview, and then the next day you're saying, Um, this is my finance department. I d I mean uh pick pick one.

SPEAKER_03 53:15

Uh yes, but but the speech I'll end with this. The speech simply felt prepared. Okay. Like it he was ready to give it and he gave it and it's like does he want to go out to pasture? Does he want to retire? I don't it I I don't see the motivation behind it, and the whole thing about taking personal offense to this document that was put out there in the public that and I read it. One thing that that I do agree with that he said is um he basically said that this was not put out as an opinion, it was put out more as the gospel. I read it, and and yeah, I can see that. And I can see where he would be offended by that. All right, Zach. For those of us who did not have the privilege of reading the paper, what are

Three Local Headlines And How To Reach Us

SPEAKER_03 54:05

three things we need to note?

SPEAKER_02 54:06

Number one, Aurora Flight Science has cut the ribbon Wednesday on a $43 million expansion expected to bring another 36 jobs to the region over the next four years. The expansion for the unmanned aerial vehicle manufacturer includes not only expanded facilities, but new automation equipment, robotics capability, and non destructive inspection technologies.

SPEAKER_03 54:27

And is that one going to be out there near the airport? That's correct. All right.

SPEAKER_02 54:31

Number two, Davion Bankhead has filed a federal lawsuit against the city at long last, as well as several individuals related to the officer-involved crash on College Street last July in which he suffered brain injuries. Among his allegations are defamations, specifically that two officers falsely blamed him for causing the accident, and city officials advanced that narrative. Negligence and civil conspiracy. The fact that the officer involved in the crash did not provide a urine sample of the hospital violated Bankhead's due process, the suit claims.

SPEAKER_03 55:04

Boy, that's gonna be a big one. We'll be following the bigger. Well, I shouldn't say that. Boy, that's gonna be a big one. I know we've talked extensively about it. We don't want to have a segment about it today, but but good grief, man. Um I tell you, just one little comment about that. I didn't realize the man had surgery until he read that complaint.

SPEAKER_02 55:26

Oh, yeah, he had he he he had lots of issues. He had a brain bleed and they had to fly him out. And that was the day or so after the police said that he only suffered minor injuries and issued that statement to the public. Number three. Will Cooper will be the new attorney for the Lowndes County Board of Supervisors. He was appointed Monday. He will replace longtime board attorney Tim Hudson, who is retiring in September. Congratulations to Mr. Cooper and best of luck in your retirement to Mr.

SPEAKER_03 55:56

Hudson. Reach out to us tips at cdispatch.com. You can also follow me on Facebook or X at Dchishishmouble Zero and leave a public comment. Keeping it real here in Catfish Alley Studio and Historic Downtown Columbus, your host has been Zach Player, and I am David Chisholm. Y'all stay friendly out there.

SPEAKER_01 56:16

I'm just a simple old country boy, but um I think that makes sense. I've stepped out and I've said what I had to say.

SPEAKER_03 56:23

You've been listening to Between the Headlines with Zach and David. That's what old people do.

SPEAKER_04 56:30

That is.