Episode 6 - Supporting Students Beyond the Stall: Rethinking Bathroom Breaks in School Artwork

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Fostering Futures℠

Episode 6 - Supporting Students Beyond the Stall: Rethinking Bathroom Breaks in School

September 03, 2025 • CAHELP JPA • Season 1 • Episode 6

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In this insightful and heartfelt episode, host Athena Cordero is joined by Crystal Kudrle, Occupational Therapist at Desert Mountain SELPA, for an open and practical conversation about a surprisingly overlooked topic in education — bathroom breaks, pelvic health, and student well-being. Together, they shine a light on how something as simple as restroom routines can profoundly impact focus, behavior, and emotional safety in the classroom.

Crystal shares her journey as an OT and her personal experience with pelvic health that led her to advocate for breaking the taboo around toileting. From understanding the pelvic floor’s role to recognizing how scheduled bathroom breaks affect students’ learning, she explains why educators must rethink rigid routines and create a more compassionate approach to student needs.

Through real-life stories and practical tips, Athena and Crystal explore how teachers can balance classroom structure with flexibility, better understand the signals students’ bodies send them, and foster a culture of empathy rather than control. It’s a powerful reminder that behind every bathroom request is a child’s dignity, comfort, and confidence.

🔑 Highlights & Takeaways

Why pelvic health matters for students — and how it connects to focus, behavior, and emotional well-being.
The hidden impact of scheduled bathroom breaks on students’ stress, learning, and self-regulation.
Recognizing the signs of anxiety, constipation, or toileting challenges and responding with empathy.
Practical classroom strategies:
- Flexible “wellness passes” instead of strict bathroom rules
- Building trust by teaching students to listen to their own internal signals
- Integrating hydration breaks and fine motor activities like buttoning practice
Creating calm corners for students managing anxiety and learning to self-regulate.
How collaboration with school nurses, parents, and occupational therapists can support students more holistically.

This episode is a must-listen for teachers, administrators, and caregivers seeking to create classrooms where student wellness is prioritized and where educators are empowered with practical tools to support every child.

Thanks for listening! Follow us on Facebook and Instagram | www.cahelp.org | podcast@cahelp.org

00:00:18 Athena Cordero

Welcome to Fostering Futures with CAHELP, a podcast dedicated to our relentless pursuit of whatever works in the life of a child.

00:00:26 Athena Cordero

I'm your host, Athena Cordero, inviting you to join me and countless others as we share our unique perspectives and expertise in the world of special education, behavioral, health, social, emotional well-being, and community. Follow us on Buzzsprout, Spotify and Apple podcasts.

00:00:45 Athena Cordero

Crystal.

00:00:46 Athena Cordero

We managed to get you back here. I don't know how we did that because you guys stayed very, very busy. But we're back here together today and we have some new stuff actually to talk about and a couple of new things with you too. So first, if you can just tell us your new last name.

00:01:02 Crystal Kudrle

Yes, I got married to a wonderful man.

00:01:07 Athena Cordero

Thank you Crystal Kudrle is your new last name. OK, so we're not even gonna go into all the fun, all the fun about that, that could be an episode in itself. Right. OK. So for the folks who did not hear potty talk, and we did get really good feedback about that. It was very helpful for.

00:01:24 Athena Cordero

Folks, but for those who have not heard party talk, can you give us a a brief description of your background so folks know who they're?

00:01:30 Crystal Kudrle

Getting this great info from sure, so I'm an occupational therapist and I've been working in the schools now here at Selpa for well over 10 years. I have my masters in occupational therapy, went to Loma Linda University.

00:01:45 Crystal Kudrle

And have just loved working with our kiddos, so we've been working in special Ed for all this time. And then I had my own little pelvic health journey and I had to have some pelvic floor therapy after hysterectomy and just fell in love with pelvic floor therapy and so found this area to be so amazing and.

00:02:05 Crystal Kudrle

Not really spoken about much and you know I I just. I didn't like the taboo behind it, you know, and it's, you know, pee and poo we should be talking about it just like it's a normal function which it is and. And so I kind of you know try to figure out how I could incorporate some of that inside our schools and try to help out teachers.

00:02:25 Crystal Kudrle

And parents and our kiddos. And to really just make it less taboo.

00:02:31 Athena Cordero

It's funny you say that I used to have such a hard time with public speaking.

00:02:36 Athena Cordero

And someone told me one day because I used to get very nervous. I think everybody poops like, get over yourself, right?

00:02:41 Athena Cordero

Like that was the way.

00:02:42 Athena Cordero

That was the way for me to ground myself like everybody does it. Don't be so nervous. You know, we're all human and that it actually did work. So I'm glad you brought that up like that. OK. So today, though, we're going to speak specifically about the classroom.

00:02:49

Yes.

00:02:57 Athena Cordero

And this should be really helpful for teachers and educators because the infamous bathroom break for as long as I can remember, even being student on into the classroom has been a little bit of a chore to manage, and it's not easy for a lot of reasons. So.

00:03:13 Athena Cordero

What do you think?

00:03:15 Athena Cordero

Teachers need to know like, why is this topic so important to you for them?

00:03:19 Crystal Kudrle

Sure. So I think it, you know it it's stuff that doesn't make it into our staff meetings, right, you know it's the, it's the complaints that the teachers have in the break room with, gosh, you know, Johnny is getting up 15 times and disturbing class and you know or you know, Sally's over there, you know.

00:03:35 Crystal Kudrle

You know, had another accident and don't know.

00:03:36 Crystal Kudrle

What to do?

00:03:37 Crystal Kudrle

Now they're just they're they're conversations that I feel like our educators don't feel like they know where to go or what type of support to get. So I really wanted to speak to them and to be able to kind of give them, like, a little one or one per say on the pelvic floor. What it looks like for their kiddos and how to best.

00:03:58 Crystal Kudrle

Help support them inside the school setting with just some simple things to be able to try.

00:04:01 Athena Cordero

To incorporate. OK, so we're not scaring anybody off. I think folks are gonna be interested actually.

00:04:07 Athena Cordero

And to get us started because we are talking about pelvic floor and you did do a really good job of explaining that first during party talk. But can you tell us again?

00:04:14 Crystal Kudrle

Just what is the pelvic floor? Sure. So yeah, it's really important for us to kind of go back to that basics, right. So the pelvic floor is like a hammock at the bottom of our pelvis. It has 12 to 14 muscles.

00:04:27 Crystal Kudrle

Depending upon which way you count it, three different.

00:04:30 Crystal Kudrle

Layers and you know the the job of our pelvic floor is to you know, support our organs. So as women, you know, to help support our uterus, all the other organs that are down there and then also to be able to control pee and poo. Right. So to be able to accurately void when we want and to be able to hold when we don't.

00:04:51 Crystal Kudrle

Want to have to avoid and? That's really important because.

00:04:55 Crystal Kudrle

You know, we have lots of muscles down there and they have to all kind of work together, you know, for our our students, you know we we want to obviously again for them to be able to control their pee and poo. We want them to be able to know what those signals are from their bladder and their bowels. That's, you know, one of the issues that they they sometimes can have and then sometimes, you know, they can.

00:05:16 Crystal Kudrle

Of things, muscles that are too tight or weak or overactive, just like any other muscle group.

00:05:22 Athena Cordero

And I'm just going to go ahead and say that I didn't know a lot of this most of this before you started talking about it. I mean, I understand the everyday things, but I can imagine that for a child sitting in the classroom who just has to go to the bathroom.

00:05:37 Athena Cordero

Or does it know why they're uncomfortable, or why they're cranky? They don't. They're not thinking about pelvic floor muscles and the hammock. They're thinking about any of.

00:05:45 Athena Cordero

That so to help.

00:05:46 Athena Cordero

Teachers kind of keep that in mind. What do you need them to know about this? As far as kids are concerned? Like, why should this matter to teachers?

00:05:54 Crystal Kudrle

Or so it it. You know, when we look at classroom management especially, you know, a lot of our our teachers do their best to try to manage these classes, you know, God bless them. They've got so many different behaviors and and different levels of academics for these kiddos in one class that they're really trying to manage. So they a lot of times we'll see.

00:06:15 Crystal Kudrle

Teachers put scheduled bathroom breaks into their.

00:06:17 Crystal Kudrle

Ohh, I'm guilty. Yes, right. And and I, I don't blame them. I don't blame them. Right. It's like, OK, we have to have something scheduled and some type of you know, uniform structure in this class.

00:06:29 Crystal Kudrle

But they often unintentionally create barriers for kids who truly need more flexibility. You know, when kids are dealing with toileting issues, whether it's accidents or urgency, Constipation, or even anxiety about using the school bathroom, it doesn't just stay in the bathroom. You know, there's really a lot of impacts that that go on onto learning.

00:06:48 Crystal Kudrle

You know, public health really is is part of a whole child Wellness.

00:06:52 Crystal Kudrle

It affects classroom culture and really empathy and dignity. Really, really do matter. But there there is definite areas that, you know, it impacts. You know, if we think about focus, for example, you know distraction from our bladder and bowel and you know we have those.

00:07:09 Crystal Kudrle

Urges.

00:07:10 Crystal Kudrle

And it can be really hard to learn math.

00:07:12 Crystal Kudrle

If you're thinking you're going to beat.

00:07:14 Crystal Kudrle

Your pants, right?

00:07:15 Crystal Kudrle

And you know, think about like, when we as adults sit in in service, right. And we're waiting for that pause. Right. So we can get up now. You're counting down the minutes. Now imagine if.

00:07:28 Crystal Kudrle

You were only allowed to do it at certain times. Yeah, you know that that puts even more pressure, right? It's actually looking at.

00:07:35 Speaker 4

The clock, yeah.

00:07:35 Crystal Kudrle

And you're counting down and. Are you really retaining much of what's going on? And that's US adults, right, who have a much higher level of ability to self regulate, right? Can you imagine these babies who are just, you know, learning what self regulation even means, let alone attention and focus, and then a whole academic task which takes a different cognitive load on top of it?

00:07:56 Crystal Kudrle

It's just piling up, so it definitely you know it, it can really affect their focus. You know, they can also see behaviors in class. You might see a kid of fidgeting.

00:08:07 Crystal Kudrle

You know, task avoidance behaviors is obviously something. Also that we see irritability maybe being asking.

00:08:14 Crystal Kudrle

To use the.

00:08:15 Crystal Kudrle

To use the restroom or to leave the room a lot. And and if you think about like your behavior. OK, let's think about getting US adults. I always like to, you know, give analogies. Right. So let's say you're in a big staff meeting, right?

00:08:28 Crystal Kudrle

And you really have to go. You could tell the presenters almost done and they ask if there's any.

00:08:32 Crystal Kudrle

Questions and you?

00:08:33 Crystal Kudrle

Got that? One coworker who raises their hand and you know it's gonna be another 12 minutes and you're like,

00:08:37 Crystal Kudrle

Now you got a little bit.

00:08:39 Crystal Kudrle

Of an attitude, right? Don't.

00:08:40 Crystal Kudrle

Really, it does start to affect behavior.

00:08:42 Crystal Kudrle

It does, even with again with US adults and also with confidence. You know, nothing crushes the kids confidence faster than an accident at school. Yeah, even like flatulence, you know, think about farting, you know.

00:08:54 Crystal Kudrle

You know, some of our boys try to.

00:08:56 Crystal Kudrle

Play it off like it's cool, but really, you know, nobody really wants.

00:08:59 Athena Cordero

To be farting. Well, the boys play it off, but the girls are a little less likely to be OK with that. You're right, it's a different there's a different expectation, a different. Except I think for the girls and theirs for the.

00:08:59

Bigger.

00:09:12 Crystal Kudrle

Boys. And Can you imagine, like, if if we were in a meeting and you know, I mean, like you didn't have the option to leave the to leave the room, you know?

00:09:19 Crystal Kudrle

And and then also their overall health too. So denying bathroom access. And I and I say that loosely because, you know, our teachers are really doing the best they can, you know, denying bathroom access sounds very, you know, rigid and mean. And I and I don't mean that at all by any means. But by doing that, you know, we're not addressing Constipation issues.

00:09:38 Crystal Kudrle

So a lot of our kiddos, really, who struggle with urinary issues like we talked about last time. Yeah, really it it's driven because of the Constipation and the Constipation. Then if you know, So what happens is they they need to use the restroom, right? Their bowel sends on the signal. Hey, I need to evacuate.

00:09:59 Crystal Kudrle

Some of these feces and they ignore it. Let's say they ignore it because they know they can't go just yet. They have to.

00:10:04 Crystal Kudrle

Wait until recess or they wanna.

00:10:05 Crystal Kudrle

Wait till they go home 100%. Yeah. Or the OR during recess. If they go, there's four other friends in there. Right. Embarrassed. You know, again, going back to.

00:10:14 Crystal Kudrle

As adults who likes to go into the public restroom where you've got two other peers sitting next to you and to use the restroom like that, we don't right, you know, so that that is a typical response. So a lot of our kids will then hold it and then when they're holding it, you know, the absorption of the water is coming out more into their body, which is making the stool harder and more and more.

00:10:34 Crystal Kudrle

Constipated. In addition to that, a lot of our kids don't have a lot of hydration, so they're not hydrating a lot with water. So it it's kind of like this compounding effect.

00:10:44 Athena Cordero

So OK, crystal, because I've been.

00:10:49 Athena Cordero

A student whose mother told her very directly if you have to go to the bathroom and they don't let you just get up and go like I'll take care of the rest of it. I've also been in charge of a classroom of students and you have to be really careful when kids learn that they can use the bathroom break as a way to avoid something like you just finished saying.

00:11:09 Athena Cordero

UM and you don't want to deny them that, but we're not mind readers, and especially in the beginning of the year when you're just getting to learn your kid.

00:11:19 Athena Cordero

Structure is what you have you right? It's one of the tools in your tube in your toolbox to have a routine to have some structure. So with that in mind and I appreciate you saying teachers do, I mean they do do the best they can. No, that was terrible. OK, as far as bathroom, right. As far as the bathroom scheduling considerations.

00:11:39 Athena Cordero

What are some things?

00:11:41 Athena Cordero

You can suggest for teachers or just some things that they can keep in mind when they're thinking about how to help students.

00:11:48 Crystal Kudrle

Sure. I think you know we really we really need to allow kids the opportunity to use the restroom when their bodies has its time, not just when the schedule allows now.

00:11:59 Crystal Kudrle

I'm. I'm not. I'm not anti schedule. OK. I think the schedule is Nice because the IT it it's good for us to know that there is something. There is a time coming up you know we we don't want kids to.

00:12:11 Crystal Kudrle

Be away from the.

00:12:12 Crystal Kudrle

Class frequently or potentially missing. You know, if we think again about us in an in service or in a training.

00:12:18 Crystal Kudrle

We're missing, you know, key things. It can be hard for us to kind of get back on track. So I think that scheduled bathroom breaks are are good. However, what happens is sometimes they teachers will tell the the kiddos, OK, your bathroom break is around your recess, that is, that is your bathroom break. Gotcha. And what kid? Especially thinking about elementary and.

00:12:39 Crystal Kudrle

In younger elementary school, when these kids are still potentially struggling with a little bit of the.

00:12:43 Crystal Kudrle

Learning and mastering that really what kiddo wants to stop playing in order to go.

00:12:49 Athena Cordero

Take a bath and bring, not mine. I can tell you that right now. They'll.

00:12:51 Athena Cordero

Play and hold it and.

00:12:53 Crystal Kudrle

Then go after totally and and then guess what? And then the teachers now got a kid in the class who just came from recess. Who, you know, everything that we know says that research.

00:13:03 Crystal Kudrle

Research shows that recess is phenomenal for them, right? Great for their nervous system. To get their quote wiggles out. Yeah, they come back and now they're wiggly and the teachers going, what the heck? I thought recess was supposed to address all of this.

00:13:14 Crystal Kudrle

But the kiddos, because they didn't.

00:13:16 Crystal Kudrle

Go to the bathroom.

00:13:16 Athena Cordero

Right. You know, it's interesting. You say that too, because I'm I'm always amazed at my own kids. They both play soccer. They're out there playing. And I'm thinking, gosh, they're drinking all that water. How are they not leaving the field more often, you know, to go to the bathroom. And I ask them this. So when you're out there, the adrenaline's pumping, you don't pay attention to it. And so I'm imagining on the playground, it's a little bit of the same thing. The journal ends up. They're playing. They're having a good time. They're just not.

00:13:39 Athena Cordero

Paying attention, or they're ignoring it.

00:13:42 Athena Cordero

And so they're waiting. And now, of course, like you said, you've got 5 or 6 kids hopping up and down all the way.

00:13:47 Crystal Kudrle

Back from recess, right? Yeah. So maybe a stop after recess. Might be a really great idea. Yeah. You know, a stop for the whole class. Again. Keeping in mind, though, that, you know, kids, you know, there's multiple multiple levels here. You know, kids can be embarrassed to use the restroom when their peers are there. So if everyone's lining up to use the restroom.

00:14:04 Crystal Kudrle

You know, you might have one peer who doesn't want to go and waits till they go to the classroom. So we want to.

00:14:08 Crystal Kudrle

Kind.

00:14:09 Crystal Kudrle

Of keep that in mind too, but you know, I think putting in some scheduled bathroom breaks, but then also again allowing them the opportunity to go when they feel those urges, however.

00:14:20 Crystal Kudrle

Over, you know, on the flip side is a lot of our kiddos don't know what.

00:14:25 Crystal Kudrle

These urges are right. So.

00:14:27 Crystal Kudrle

They struggle with this thing called interoception and introception is like our internal signals. Think about, you know, our, our the the hunger pain having to pee, having to fart as a true stomach ache because you ate.

00:14:42 Crystal Kudrle

Something bad or a feeling like a stomach ache because you have anxiety, right? All those are different sensations that we as adults, have learned how to process and.

00:14:52 Crystal Kudrle

To put a label to right so I know when I have this sensation it means I have to pee. It's not that I'm nervous, right? I know when this sensation happens. I know it's because I'm, you know, I'm a little bit anxious as opposed to, oh, my gosh, I ate some bad sushi, you know? So our kids are just learning these things.

00:15:09 Athena Cordero

Yeah, you know.

00:15:10 Athena Cordero

What's our famous term we use now?

00:15:12 Athena Cordero

I hear more than ever is hungry because people know when I'm hungry. I'm gonna have an attitude. But it took a while for us to even be OK with saying that. Right. So you're right.

00:15:22 Athena Cordero

Absolutely right. And.

00:15:23 Crystal Kudrle

I I think, UM, you know, so I I think one of the things you know it can be really important for our teachers is to really try to help the kiddos, to try to determine some of these sensations. To start talking about. You know what, what those sensations feel like, what they potentially could be attributed to.

00:15:40 Crystal Kudrle

You know, avoid the just wait for recess response whenever possible. You know if, if if a kiddo really has to use the restroom, I would encourage the teachers to go ahead and give them that.

00:15:51 Crystal Kudrle

Opportunity and then you know from the beginning of the school year, you know, this comes perfect timing because you know, we're we're getting ready to start the school year up. It's to develop a culture of trust versus control. Right. So we want, we want all of these kids, you know, we, yes, we do want respect. We want all of that, but we also want them to, to understand that we trust them and we want them to start trusting their internal.

00:16:12 Crystal Kudrle

Signals right as well. Absolutely right. And that that starts with us as adults, you know, to recognize that. Hey, OK. If you have this signal to go, I'm going to trust that you're figuring out that you think this.

00:16:24 Crystal Kudrle

Is a a signal to urinate, and you're gonna go use the restroom and you're gonna come back and be back focused on on task, you know, so it's having those conversations with them at the beginning of the school year as far as what that looks like.

00:16:38 Crystal Kudrle

And then you know really, maybe even having like a couple flexible like Wellness passes. You know, I've I've had teachers that have, you know, been really successful with that.

00:16:48 Crystal Kudrle

What I would discourage is is having it be like an incentive, like we don't want them to earn the break. Like Can you imagine like you're our boss coming and saying, you know, hey, I'm our CEO saying hey, just see now you've earned 2 more bathroom breaks this week. That would be hilarious and not all safe. Right. And and we would we would hyper fixate on that right.

00:16:54

Yeah.

00:17:09 Crystal Kudrle

OK, I only have three more to go. What am I gonna do? Am I gonna space them out?

00:17:12 Crystal Kudrle

And then what do we start doing? We tend to start drinking less, which we know. Yeah. And we know that it's actually gonna irritate our bladder lining even more, which is actually going to increase that potential. And you know, so it's it's definitely a fine line of of putting some bathroom breaks into your schedule that, you know, the kiddos.

00:17:33 Crystal Kudrle

Probably will take advantage of, but then also giving them some of that autonomy and and and putting them in control over their bladder and bowel.

00:17:43 Athena Cordero

So I'm I'm sitting here trying to put myself in the position of a teacher in the classroom. As you're giving these suggestions. OK, So what I'm trying to see myself doing, if it's me, it feels like I probably could ask more questions right around just the whole idea of this infamous bathroom break. When's the last time you went have you had?

00:18:03 Athena Cordero

Any water? Are you feeling a little nervous about the, you know, tests coming up, those types of things, you kind of get to know your student and the situation and it also gives you some, some data to work with, right. Because if Athena always has to go to the restroom at this part of the day when we're about to do group work or we're about to do presentations or whatever it is.

00:18:23 Athena Cordero

That might be a good way for me to tell her you. I think you might be a little anxious. Do you need to use the restrooms just to get some of the anxiety out?

00:18:31 Athena Cordero

I feel like that's doable for me and you know, with a group of kids and it doesn't make me feel like I'm stepping over the line. Does that make am I am.

00:18:39 Crystal Kudrle

I processing that well. Absolutely, absolutely. You know, one of the the suggestions that we also have, especially when you have a kiddo that you know, tends to be higher on the anxiety side. Yeah, you know.

00:18:50 Crystal Kudrle

They have one specific student and he is constantly in the restroom and I, you know, he has a one on 1/8 and I was talking with the the 8 about it and said Oh yeah, he just goes in all the time and I said is he actually going all the time or ohh he's just really anxious and I said.

00:19:04 Crystal Kudrle

OK, awesome. First of all, you just recognize that right, potentially him having to use restroom might be related to his anxiety. Let's go ahead and give him other options that he can do to address the anxiety outside of just using the restroom. Right. Because right now, that's what he thinks. The only cycle is, right. I have this. I know how to get away from my room, which I is producing a little bit of anxiety.

00:19:25 Crystal Kudrle

And I know I'm gonna go to the bathroom. Right. Right. So we wanna kind of rewire some of that and maybe having a calm corner in the back. So if you know, if it's a kiddo who has a lot of anxiety.

00:19:35 Crystal Kudrle

Maybe giving them that option of saying, you know, do you, you know, do you want to go to the bathroom now or take one minute to go to the calm corner and then return to the activity and see if you still have to go to the bathroom, especially if you know they just went right, you know? And you know, it's not like they're, you know, we all know that sickness goes around and everyone's got the stomach flu. If that's not the situation. Yeah. And you think it's potentially just.

00:19:56 Crystal Kudrle

Society is teaching them some of those self regulation strategies. You know, teaching them, you know, socially emotional, you know, tricks and tips that that they might be able to then use down the line in junior high and high school and then even.

00:20:09 Athena Cordero

Into adulthood and and like you said earlier, I mean really just how would we want somebody to treat us, you know, in the same situation, even as the adults, the bathroom is something we have to manage.

00:20:18 Athena Cordero

Well, I can't help because of work that I've got. You know, I've had the privilege of doing. I can't help but look at this the same way I would look at other tiered supports in the classroom. You talked about having a good routine and a good structure and having the schedule available. That's for everybody to benefit from. But then also, you know, looking at the few kids in the classroom.

00:20:40 Athena Cordero

You might need a little bit more questioning or.

00:20:42 Athena Cordero

Needs some help recognizing whether this is anxiety in the calm corner that feels very much like a Tier 2 type of support and then looking at who's using the corner a little bit too much. Do I need to ask more questions? You know? Do I need to seek out information from family that that looks like Tier 3 to me, you know, individualized. I can't help it. And the way you're describing it.

00:20:49

Absolutely.

00:21:04 Athena Cordero

Helps me see that in the classroom and that might be easier for teachers too, to look at it through that.

00:21:09 Crystal Kudrle

Framework. Absolutely. I I think that's a great, great analogy for it. And and you know and it's really.

00:21:16 Crystal Kudrle

Research driven, right? Yeah. And we all know that this is. This is how we can make a difference for these kiddos, whether it's the group as a whole or then going down to that Tier 1 support. So I I definitely I love. I love that analogy. I think that that really is a a, a great, great depiction.

00:21:33 Athena Cordero

Of that. So I have to say that the way you're describing it, the way you're explaining it is helping me see what it could look like in the classroom.

00:21:39 Athena Cordero

Crystal. So I appreciate that because it's helping me wrap my mind around it. Yeah. Any anything else that you want because I know that you said you had your own journey with this and a lot of it from what I get from you is really just to empathize.

00:21:49 Athena Cordero

Guys with the individuals. So what else?

00:21:51 Crystal Kudrle

Can you share with us? Sure. I I would say some signs that the teachers can kind of look for for a kiddo who might be struggling. So thinking about more that tier one right. Yes, that tier one like OK. Truthfully maybe there's something more going on. I would say you know, a kiddo who has frequent accidents, you know, obviously.

00:22:10 Crystal Kudrle

Complains a lot of stomach pain is constantly going to the nurse's office.

00:22:14 Crystal Kudrle

Avoiding the toilet all together, you know we might have some kids who have some sensory issues right now.

00:22:21 Crystal Kudrle

That that the.

00:22:22 Crystal Kudrle

Public restrooms are not great. You know, if you have a kiddo who maybe is a little over sensitive to certain things, right? So, you know, maybe the noise in the bathroom is is too much. Maybe the smell maybe.

00:22:34 Crystal Kudrle

You.

00:22:35 Crystal Kudrle

Just even sitting on the toilet and having their feet dangle is really not optimal for for sitting on the toilet. I know we talked about that before. You know, we want our pelvic floor to be able to fully relax in order for all those sphincters to.

00:22:40

Right.

00:22:48 Crystal Kudrle

Open in order for.

00:22:48 Crystal Kudrle

Us to be able to avoid, so even sometimes just the, you know, the seating on the toilet is not super ideal.

00:22:55 Crystal Kudrle

But I would say really kind of just keeping in mind those kiddos that might be struggling at that tier one level and then from there, you know, reaching out to the school nurse, you know, reaching out to the parents say, hey, you know, are you guys seeing this also at home? You know, I know he's asking a lot to use the restroom. Is there something that I should be aware of or how can I best help support him?

00:23:15 Crystal Kudrle

Also including a lot of hydration breaks, so a lot of our kids unfortunate and even US adults don't drink enough water. Right, you know, we know that you know now that we have so many different options, you know, back from when we were kids. Well, there's a couple options, you know, right. And a lot of kiddos just really don't like water.

00:23:29 Athena Cordero

Goodness.

00:23:35 Crystal Kudrle

And we know that our bladder needs that our body needs that our our bowels need all of that flu.

00:23:42 Crystal Kudrle

And when we're not giving all of that fluid to those systems, what happens is it it creates a an irritant in the the bladder lining. And so it's really potent pee, right. And our body says we don't like this. We want nothing to do with it. We can't pull anything else from it and it's trying to expel it. So you may not even have a full bladder.

00:24:02 Crystal Kudrle

But they may not even fully be using that muscle right that that bladder's not fully expanding all the way because they're not filling it up all the way because it's it's very potent pee.

00:24:11 Crystal Kudrle

The body's.

00:24:12 Crystal Kudrle

Trying to expel it right. There's not enough water to absorb into the bowels, which is creating Constipation.

00:24:17 Crystal Kudrle

Now you got a kid who's constipated, is grouchy, and has to pee a lot and doesn't want.

00:24:22 Athena Cordero

To drink water. So again, crystal while guilty, right. I've heard. I've heard my son. You know my kids even say they have to go to the bathroom. And of course, when they were little, you're paying attention a lot and I hear barely a little bit, a little bit.

00:24:38 Athena Cordero

You know, come out and I'm going. Are you jumping up too fast? You need to make sure you're.

00:24:42 Athena Cordero

But what I should have been thinking about is how much water have they had, because if their body is trying to get rid of it and it feels like they're not giving themselves the amount of time it's not, it's the body's way of trying to get rid of what it does not want to have anymore. And really what I need to be concentrating on is how to hydrate my kids.

00:24:57 Athena Cordero

More I didn't, I've never.

00:24:59 Athena Cordero

Thought about that? That absolutely, absolutely.

00:25:02 Crystal Kudrle

And you know that I know we.

00:25:03 Crystal Kudrle

Talked about it.

00:25:03 Crystal Kudrle

Before, as far as like how long we should be paying for and you know one of the things you know that we talked about is like paying for a minimum of 10 seconds. And you know what, what that looks like is not pushing, so you know.

00:25:14 Crystal Kudrle

A lot of times, you know, people sounds funny, but they don't even.

00:25:18 Crystal Kudrle

Know how to pee correctly?

00:25:19 Crystal Kudrle

OK. And and it's because again?

00:25:21 Crystal Kudrle

We we don't talk about this type.

00:25:22 Crystal Kudrle

Of stuff you know, we we don't know. We don't know, right. And so we don't want to encourage.

00:25:28 Crystal Kudrle

Pushing while we're peeing, what should happen is all of those muscles should fully relax in order for those sphincters to open in order to get it all out. If you think about this, if you're pushy.

00:25:38 Crystal Kudrle

And what? What's that mean? It means that muscles are contracting, and if muscles are contracting, how can you get?

00:25:42 Crystal Kudrle

Something through that, right? Right.

00:25:45 Crystal Kudrle

So we we really want to be able to fully relax. So we don't want the kids to push, you know, when when they're trying to pee, which means we don't want them to hurry a lot of times, you know, we'll say, OK, hurry it up. Come on, hurry, hurry, hurry. And what you naturally do you tend to push, you know when you're trying to rush through.

00:26:00 Crystal Kudrle

It so you know, we really want them to be able to take our time and even for US adults too, you know, monitoring that and and mirroring that.

00:26:07 Athena Cordero

With our kiddos, so much is coming back to me right now, even from being in school. Crystal, I remember the line outside of the restroom counting, you know, so you can hurry up and get through the restroom. So everyone had a chance to go.

00:26:21 Athena Cordero

But all that did was make you.

00:26:23 Athena Cordero

Three. And what you're explaining to me now is you're going to naturally push because you're trying to hurry up. And who wants to be the kid that goes over the time that they counted? Cause now you know you have to deal with the line, right? So of course, I mean, I would have never thought of it like that before. In my mind, we're trying to hurry and get through the line, but now it's.

00:26:38 Athena Cordero

All coming back to me and I have to now, I have to scold myself. I think a little bit. That's my and you probably didn't fully.

00:26:43 Crystal Kudrle

Into your bladder. Either. No. Right. Probably you're thinking about it like you're not actually fully allowing that opportunity for your bladder to fully empty, right? You know, we should.

00:26:51 Crystal Kudrle

Would be, you know, on average peeing about every two to four hours is is really what we should be, you know? And at minimum like 10 seconds. You know, it'd be great if you could go up to like the 15 to 20. Sometimes you can even go a lot more than that, which is great. But again, we're not pushing a great way to tell if you're drinking enough water and you're having enough hydration for good.

00:27:13 Crystal Kudrle

Bladder and bowel habits is going to be it's pretty close to clear, has a hint of yellow. I always say the best thing about poop and pee is that is our data that tells us if what we're internally doing is is accurate, right? So if we're in, if we're taking enough water in.

00:27:30 Crystal Kudrle

Then obviously our P is going to reflect that.

00:27:33 Athena Cordero

Right. You're I. You're right. I can't think of a more honest set of of data that we could pull from. You're absolutely right. OK. This has been really, really helpful for me. I know there's a couple of folks that I know who are in the classroom still that I'm going to make sure that they listen to this episode.

00:27:50 Athena Cordero

Anything else you want to leave?

00:27:52 Athena Cordero

With us, yeah.

00:27:53 Crystal Kudrle

Just, you know, really remembering, you know, empathy with our kiddos, you know, nobody wants to be denied, you know, bathroom access, especially when we need it. Like, let's lead with compassion while managing our classroom. Expect.

00:28:06 Crystal Kudrle

Relations, you know, recognizing that if if it is task avoidance trying to, you know, pick apart that a little bit more is it because every time at math time there's task avoidance because this kid is really struggling with math and you know maybe we need to look into a little bit more into that and and to see or you know what what else is.

00:28:26 Crystal Kudrle

Is going on, besides just needing to use the.

00:28:31 Crystal Kudrle

Restroom a lot, right?

00:28:33 Crystal Kudrle

And then, you know, just really remembering that toileting is personal. You know, it's human. You know, it impacts far more of our students than we think. You know, it it impacts every single one of our daily lives. And, you know, when we when we just talk about it openly, when we don't have it be this hush hush thing. You know, we we make it.

00:28:53 Crystal Kudrle

And more acceptable to talk about and to feel comfortable with saying I need to use the restroom. Right. You know, we don't want our kids to have this.

00:29:02 Crystal Kudrle

This ick feeling with oh gosh, you know, he has to use the bathroom and we want. We want to give them control. Really. So. And then just, you know, really telling the teachers like they're doing a great job, they their jobs are so hard.

00:29:16 Crystal Kudrle

00:29:17 Crystal Kudrle

Imagine as an occupational therapist. You know, I walk in. I assess the kid for an hour and a half.

00:29:22 Crystal Kudrle

Two hours when I we do treatments, we're there for 30 minutes, 40 minutes and then we gonna send the kid back. We're like the fun Ant, right? You know, we don't have to. We have to worry about them sleeping through the night. We don't have to worry about the attic.

00:29:33 Crystal Kudrle

It's, you know, the teachers are really, are they? They need to be given all the credit.

00:29:38 Crystal Kudrle

And all the.

00:29:39 Crystal Kudrle

Kudos, yes. So I would say if they're really struggling, you know, reach out to your school nurse, reach out to your OT on staff there and, you know, help them see kind of what struggles that you, you know you have going on so they can problem solve with you also.

00:29:54 Athena Cordero

And I'm going to go back to what you said in the in the very beginning is this is not on the agenda, you know, at staff meetings. It's not a topic that we talked about, at least it wasn't when I was participating in them.

00:30:04 Athena Cordero

So having a little bit of time to talk about that, to see what teachers are going through in the classroom, different grade levels, even that might be helpful just to have the conversation with the teachers and see if there's some strategies you can pull to take back into your own classrooms.

00:30:20 Crystal Kudrle

Our little ones are our teachers. Can we got this whole new push, right?

00:30:24 Athena Cordero

Yeah, that's what.

00:30:24 Crystal Kudrle

Ones coming in and a lot of them are not even fully potty. Potty learned, right?

00:30:29 Athena Cordero

Very true. Very.

00:30:30 Crystal Kudrle

True. You know, we haven't fully gone through all the potty learning just yet, right? And if you didn't hear our last podcast, you know, we tried to stay away from potty training because they're just. It kind of feels a little bit.

00:30:39 Crystal Kudrle

A little bit harsh. Yeah. So, you know, as a teacher, you could really work on, like, having, like, little buttoning stations, you know, work on button strips a lot of our kids are just learning. These signals are just being able to get to the restroom on time, and then they're struggling with how to get their pants down. Yeah, that's true. And then they're having these accidents. And then obviously then they're discouraged and they're embarrassed they come out and.

00:30:59 Crystal Kudrle

You know, so just having like a little fine motor station is phenomenal for some of these kids working on buttons and clasp and snaps.

00:31:07 Crystal Kudrle

It's a great strategy also. Yeah. To be able to kind of work into their day-to-day activities.

00:31:13 Athena Cordero

That's a really good idea, actually. I'm hoping folks try that one. I feel like it's super doable. There's things that you can bring in the classroom to help them do that, and you're right, it is fine motor skills. Everybody needs that. I think even us as adults, there's clothing that we feel like we'd rather RIP off. You're trying to hurry.

00:31:29 Athena Cordero

Go to the bathroom to do to deal with the button of the zippers. So that's really good strategy as well Chris, I am.

00:31:35 Athena Cordero

Did it? I think I I didn't. I didn't think that I was going to learn even more this episode that I did in the first episode, but I absolutely did. And just in case there is a teacher, you know, a school somewhere in our area who's heard this and they want to reach out and actually get in touch with you to get some more ideas.

00:31:57 Athena Cordero

Is there a way? What's?

00:31:58 Crystal Kudrle

The best way to get in contact with yeah, absolutely. e-mail is probably going to be best and you can reach out to the selpa. Selpa has all of my contact information as well. Obviously I work for SELPA, but e-mail is crystal so SCRYSTAL.

00:32:12 Crystal Kudrle

Dot cookerly and that's KUDRLE at canhelp.org CA HE lp.org. So definitely reach out. I'd be happy even to come do some in services for your teachers. Especially like I said our our Littles, our TK teachers, you know they're going to be just struggling with a lot coming in.

00:32:32 Crystal Kudrle

With these kiddos learning on the basics and be happy to come in and do some in services and see how we.

00:32:37 Athena Cordero

Can best support our teams? Well, I'm going to apologize now because I think there's going to be part of you. People will reach out to Chris, so I love it. OK. Perfect. Thank you so much for coming and talking.

00:32:46 Athena Cordero

To us today, this is another awesome one. Thank you so much. Awesome, thanks.