Episode 2: Empowerment vs. Entitlement

In episode two of the Ignition Leadership Podcast, hosts Jamie and Bob Howarth discuss the crucial distinction between empowerment and entitlement within the fire service. They highlight the importance of empowering crew members to grow into new roles while maintaining the necessary rank structure and following standard operating guidelines. The episode also revisits the concept of 'metaculture,' a unique blend of diverse backgrounds and traditions within the fire service, and its impact on team dynamics and decision-making. Jamie and Bob share insights on fostering new leaders through structured training, enabling them to make effective decisions, and ensuring a high-performing team that supports the mission and safety of the community. They also touch upon the challenges of balancing non-emergency administrative tasks with emergency operational decisions, emphasizing the significance of explaining the 'why' behind decisions to emerging leaders. The conversation underscores that while empowerment is essential for growth, it must be balanced with accountability to prevent entitlement and ensure operational integrity.

Transcript

Lawrence 0:00

Welcome to Ignition Leadership Podcast. Leading with fire and building with purpose. All information and opinions are of the hosts and guests and are not afiliated with any organization. Here are your hosts Jamie and Bob Howarth.

Jamie Howarth 0:14

Welcome to Ignition Leadership Podcast. We're your host, Jamie Howarth.

Bob Howarth (2) 0:19

And I'm Bob Howarth.

Jamie Howarth 0:20

Welcome to episode number two. I think we have our mic issues worked out from episode number one. Thanks for hanging in with us while we work through the bugs of this. We literally just sat here for an hour making sure that it works correctly. But we think we have it now.

Bob Howarth (2) 0:37

I think we're doing better this time around.

Jamie Howarth 0:40

Yeah, it's a learning curve for sure. It's just like anything that you do. It's a learning curve, right?

Bob Howarth (2) 0:45

Very true.

Jamie Howarth 0:46

So this episode, we are going to talk about empowerment versus entitlement. And this is really interesting because I spoke about this very briefly. When I spoke at TEEX for those that don't know, I spoke at TEEX in January on leadership and I was talking about how we have to preserve tradition while we move the culture forward and in that was a slide about empowerment versus entitlement and I knew this was a good slide. Because I, I have like over a hundred people sitting in the room and I see all of these phones go up to start taking pictures of this specific slide and I got a lot of head shakes and yes and that's right and that makes sense. So I felt like this was a good second episode to lead us from the metaculture into empowerment versus entitlement. Kind of what that means and how it can help or hurt your team. I am going to start by reading off the actual slide. I am going to post it on social media so people can see it also. So with Empowerment vs. Entitlement, there's a fine line between empowering a crew member and enabling them to work outside of the rank structure. Empowerment is essential for members to grow into new roles and feel more comfortable making decisions. If not guided correctly and within the rank and structure, the member may feel entitled to work outside of the rules and regulations and make decisions beyond their scope of practice. This does not support the mission or tradition. So there's a lot to digest there. I feel like

Bob Howarth (2) 2:26

there's a whole lot to digest there.

Jamie Howarth 2:28

Yeah. So let's talk about metaculture just to do a quick recap. Last episode we talked about how the fire service is actually a culture inside of a culture. And the reason for that is because. We have a lot of different backgrounds that come into the fire service. And then we create our own traditions and our own customs. And that's how we have what is called a metaculture. So you can have a crew of five people and each person has different backgrounds, different religions was raised in different social economic classes, and we bring them all together for the same mission, which is the mission of the fire service. So when we bring them together, that creates that metaculture and it makes it really unique because we operate in emergency and non emergency situations. So we're operating in. At the firehouse there for 24 hours eating meals together, you get to know their families, you get to know their backgrounds, and then you go out on emergency operations and it becomes more rigid and more of a it's more of a response.

Bob Howarth (2) 3:39

So you also, it's not just in the emergency operations, it's also around the firehouse because we have a metaculture per shift. A shift does one thing, D shifts culture is a little bit different than theirs, B shifts is different than the other three. That metaculture itself creates an issue when you're not on an emergency. Some of that can be as simple as when do you clean up, when do some stations wanted to do vacuuming at night. Other stations wanted to do that vacuuming in the morning. It's a lot to get through.

Jamie Howarth 4:10

It could be the same station, just different shifts,

Bob Howarth (2) 4:12

a hundred percent, same station, different shifts.

Jamie Howarth 4:15

Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And ultimately, what we want is for all of those team members to come together to support the mission, to serve the community, and to be high performing teams, to be efficient. We lack, I feel, in the fire service as a whole, in Raising the next leader and empowering them to make decisions when they're earlier in their career. So when they do come to make decisions when it comes time for them to promote or when they become, a paramedic I do think that we start to, we give them so much responsibility and they don't have any practice with it.

Bob Howarth (2) 4:59

So completely agree, especially working in the private industry. I've seen this where. If you're going to be an effective and good leader, then you need to train or to get people to be a leader to replace you. If you don't train for replacement, it's never going to work.

Jamie Howarth 5:24

It's such a hard thing because you have a lot of responsibility, let's say, as a frontline supervisor, somebody that's That's in the station with their crew and you also have the responsibility of making sure the next generation comes up through the ranks and that they are able to preserve that tradition in the fire service. But also we want to make sure that we continue to evolve with society, right? So society 20 years ago is definitely not the same now as it was then. And the fire service has to evolve with that. As we discussed in the last episode, I'm a first generation firefighter. You're a first generation firefighter, but there's a lot of firefighters who have multi generations of. of being in the fire service. A lot of people come to this job for various reasons. Some people come to it because they just want to help people. I came to it because it was something different every single day and I really liked that. I knew I wouldn't be bored. And then there's some people who do it just for, for benefits and pay and you have to get all of those people. On the same page and then begin to function as a team. And even those that are here for, let's say, I'm just here for the paycheck, or I'm just here for the pay. I don't believe that for one second. The job requires so much grit and it requires so much energy that If you are in the right situation and the right crew, I think that even those people are going to come forward and begin to really like the job and like what they do.

Bob Howarth (2) 7:00

I do think though, when you talk about the different cultures coming up and how society is different today than it was 20 years ago, you also have to look at Not just the salary, but the benefits of the job compared to today and 20 years ago, there's tons of stories and articles and studies that show that a person aged 21 now will have five or six different jobs before they actually retire where When we came into the department, you got one job, that was it. You retired, you took another job. It became a career instead of a job. And that is something that we have to address nowadays, because if you don't have the same benefits that become lifelong benefits, then it's much easier to change that job.

Jamie Howarth 7:53

That's very true. And I can tell you when I got hired with the fire department, I was like, yep, this is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. And it actually, like. It helped me to settle into that but people do, they move around the country. I do think because of social media and because of flights being so readily available, it's easier for people to move around the country, even move worldwide into different areas. So they're not staying in the same place and they are going out and they're experiencing different things. So I do think that is true when it comes to the fire service as a whole. So now the question is though, How are we going to, because I want to make sure we give our listeners stuff that they can implement now, how are we going to empower these employees now for positions that they're looking to promote into 3, 4, 5 years from now? And there's such a fine balance with it because it's an empowerment versus entitlement, right? We want to empower them to make decisions. We want to empower them to take a lead role. But at the same time if you cross over that edge just a little, it's going to put them into entitlement and then they're going to feel like they're entitled to work outside of the rank structure. And when people start working outside of the rank structure and they're not. Following rules and regulations, SOGs, things that are put in place after a lot of science at or after reading a lot of line of duty death reports and are there for a reason. That's when we start to see issues occurring on the fire ground with confusion, with tasks being missed, and then ultimately with people getting hurt. And that's not a high functioning team.

Bob Howarth (2) 9:36

First things first, we just had this discussion a couple of nights ago as a leader, anything that someone else can do, you should be allowing them to do it. You should only be doing the tasks and functions that only you can do. If you really want to help empower, enable, train any of that stuff. If you can delegate those items down to the person below you. You're preparing them to come to your position so that when they do get to your position, it's the duties of the position they have to learn, not just duties of leadership.

Jamie Howarth 10:18

Yes. And there is a difference. I like have a whole full circle come around for that. There is a difference between. Administrative stuff that they can work on fire hazard surveys or in service inspections or doing stuff around the firehouse versus them making decisions on the fire ground. It's a lot more structure on the fire ground when they're making those decisions. And this is why I think it's so important and it leads me like right into the next part of this is we need to be training. Training every shift and during those training sessions is when you can empower people to get into the driver's seat some to learn how to make those decisions. So when the time comes and they promote and they get into the right front seat of that fire engine, it's not going to feel completely brand new. It's still going to be scary. It's just, it's a huge transition, but it at least allows for them to go, okay. I've at least made some of these decisions in training. It's not like I've never made decisions before. And it also helps you as a leader because if you think about it, you're the lieutenant or captain first on the scene on the fire ground. You're doing your brief initial report and your 360. You are expecting your firefighter on a three person engine company, you're expecting your firefighter to. They have to make decisions based on what you're saying, making sure that they pull the right size line to the right place, the right length, and they have to also have situational awareness of what's going on as far as, with the RECOVS, with the rescue and paying attention to the smoke conditions and things like that. So in, in the training world, if you give them the opportunity to make some of those decisions and they understand the why behind it, it's actually going to also make them a better firefighter.

Bob Howarth (2) 12:08

It is and tactically completely agree that you can't just let them make decisions on an emergency scene without having some sort of training and going through that, but enabling them and empowering them to make. Administrative decisions, simple decisions helps them become a person that can make a decision. We have too many people right now. I'll use us as a perfect example. What do you want to have for dinner tonight? No idea. We don't have any idea what we're going to have for dinner tonight.

Jamie Howarth 12:46

Every night.

Bob Howarth (2) 12:47

But you can go out and make a decision.

Jamie Howarth 12:50

You

Bob Howarth (2) 12:50

can go make a decision on where the first line goes on a house fire without even thinking about it.

Jamie Howarth 12:54

Yeah.

Bob Howarth (2) 12:55

So getting people used to making decisions.

Jamie Howarth 12:59

I will say though, that I make so many decisions at work that by the time I come home, that making the decision for dinner, I'm just like, Oh, I don't know. Give me my options and pick something because I just am making decisions for 24 hours. As a battalion chief, I didn't realize the amount of decisions that would come at me in a 24 hour period. How much the phone would ring and you have to make decisions and I feel like from my standpoint that I was prepared to go into that position. And that does not mean that I was going to go into the position and be the best at it. I just felt like I could manage. And of course, we don't want to just manage, we want to excel and exceed in the position, but you have to start somewhere. And when I first got promoted to lieutenant, completely lost. Nobody really helped me to grow into that position. So for the first five years, I never made a decision. It was, you need to be seen and not heard. I was a paramedic, so I did make some Paramedic decisions, but back in the day, we had two paramedics. So even then you're making decisions with someone else. So then I got in the front seat of a fire engine and it was, I felt so lost in the sauce. And the learning curve to go from, buddy to boss. And then to be the one making critical decisions on the fire ground as, as any arriving unit, but especially as the first arriving unit. And then just how it made me feel. And how ineffective I was, it was really tough and I will tell you that I actually strongly considered demoting when I became a lieutenant because My very first fire, you investigated it, was a, it was a bad fire. It was a fatal, and I feel like I had a lot going on in that fire. And it was just, all the cards were stacked against me, and there was so much that you don't know until you don't know. But with that being said, It was also a moment where I thought to myself, Okay I am never gonna let that happen to me again. I am gonna do everything I can to push forward and to make sure that I'm always growing, always learning. If people aren't reaching out to me to help me, I need to be the one that reaches out to them. I'm the one that needs to reach out and ask for mentorship. And that's not an easy concept, especially with today's fire service. And with social media and people not really having those hard conversations.

Bob Howarth (2) 15:37

Let's go back to your first fire for a second. When you were a practicing paramedic on a paramedic unit, what guided your decisions? More than anything, what guided your decisions?

Jamie Howarth 15:47

The Maryland Protocol.

Bob Howarth (2) 15:49

Maryland Protocol. You had a step one, step two, step three. For the most part. For

Jamie Howarth 15:55

the most part.

Bob Howarth (2) 15:56

You did deviate and you did have to do those things, but for the most part, you were driven by Protocols that told you this is what we do for this issue.

Jamie Howarth 16:05

If one second, if you're watching our video and you see a little black blob in the background, those are German Shorthaired Pointers getting tired of us not paying attention to them. So you might end up seeing them wandering around or jumping on our laps here soon. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. Sorry. No, that's okay. It's so funny how she's just wandering around.

Bob Howarth (2) 16:22

You were guided by protocols. You were guided by Almost like instructions of what you're going to do. And then you get thrown in the front seat of a fire engine. And even though there are still, there may not have been as many, but there were still policies, there were still procedures, there were still things like that, but that was where it stopped. It was, you've arrived now, there may be 20 or 30 different tools in your toolbox that you have to decide which tool you're going to pull out. It becomes a little different. When you have to make decisions where you are not guided as much by steps as you're guided by at the moment when you see it.

Jamie Howarth 17:04

For clarity that fire I, we actually did not have SOGs, so we didn't have operating procedures so when the first arriving officer arrived on location, which, on that fire, that was me it was in the middle of the night, and we had rural water supply, and so what fell on that first officer was Telling water supply, how to set up where they're going to go for water supply, trying to get a secondary water supply. And then as people are coming in, you have to assign them what to do. The SOGs, I feel like have just, we're going off on a tangent here a little bit, but they have. I just feel like I actually operated under both standards. I operated as a frontline supervisor under, I would say the NIMS standard. That's not really what it is, but it is. Where people show up and then you tell them what to do. Versus the SOGs, which are guidelines, right? It's not an end all, be all, but it does help you in that decision making process to avoid that task saturation. So that you are able to focus on What you need to focus on and the priorities of the incident. So I do think that there's a difference there between That as well, when I first became an officer to, to now as a battalion chief everybody really understands their role and they get tactical discipline and they come in and they know what they're supposed to do when the battalion chief arrives on location, it, it moves into more of that command driven once the battalion chief, establishes command and transfers it. So this is where the entitlement can come in. Because you do want to empower people to make decisions, but they also have to work within the guidelines. They have to do what they are assigned to do. They have to have tactical discipline. So if you're not setting up that structure, and you're not, and this is both emergency and non emergency operations, if they don't know what is expected of them, if they don't understand, The structure or they just they're not held accountable inside that structure system. They're going to feel more entitled to work outside of that structure system. And when that starts happening, you start to get that domino effect of things that start to go wrong. And then that leads to people getting injured or killed. So it's important that we do focus on empowering people to make decisions, right time, right place, having hard conversations, but ensuring that they are also Held accountable that they work within the rank structure and that they understand what their job is or what their role is on the fire ground.

Bob Howarth (2) 19:53

So you, you said something a couple seconds ago where you said that we're getting off on a tangent and I think you're selling yourself short on it's not a tangent because at that fire, you were empowered. to make every single decision there is. You had that and not only were you empowered to do it, you had to do it because you were the first officer there. But now you've been given policies and procedures. You know that these are things that we're going to do. Other companies coming in know what they're going to do. So now they've enabled you to make better decisions because you have less of them to make. You have you're more empowered in a smaller scale. You can change anything at any time, but other people are now empowered to help you with what they're coming in to do. So it's a huge change and it benefits, not just you, everybody. By going that way.

Jamie Howarth 20:56

I don't think that we have less decisions to make. I can tell you when I'm driving down the road, I have a lot of decisions that I'm making and ensuring that all of those SOGs and those tactical benchmarks are being met. However, I do agree with you that the, this is where the empowerment comes in, where it does take a little while for that established command to come into play. So we have to. Empowering them to make those decisions instead of just sitting back and waiting for somebody else to tell them exactly what to do is helpful to set the scene up for success and I felt like when we operated, I'm going to call it under the old standard. I didn't feel like I was set up for success. And I know that there's one chief that's probably going to listen to this. And then we're going to have a conversation about this later. He and I, we do disagree on this. I know for sure. But I just, I've been under both systems and when you set up that scene. Right from the start where everybody knows what their role is and they're able to get to work I feel like it's safer and that we are more efficient We're higher functioning, which is better for the mission and the community. We are able to Get to those rescues quicker. We're able to put the fire out faster. We're able to be Functioning without somebody standing there saying you over there go do that you over there go do that Because at that point when you first arrive You don't have all of that stuff sitting there ready and available. The battalion chief isn't there yet. The, that, established command is not there. It's important that they are empowered to make those decisions. But they cannot be entitled to work outside of the structure.

Bob Howarth (2) 22:49

When they start working outside of the structure, that's when things go, off the rails. I do think that you have potentially the same number of decisions to make today as you did back then. But, and I think you have to monitor the same number of things that are happening. But to use SideCharlie for an example. 25 years ago, you had to make a decision on what engine was going to go to side. Charlie, you don't make that decision. Now you only make that decision. If something doesn't, you have to monitor it, but you know that there's an engine that's already assigned to go to side. Charlie, that's not a decision you have to make anymore. Now that engine will go there and you have to keep track of it. You have to monitor it. You have to know what's going on, but you don't really have to make as much of a decision until. They're already there and you're employing the tactics and things like that,

Jamie Howarth 23:43

even let's use that example. Even that example, we're talking about empowering. If we have a working basement fire and it went unnoticed, right? Like they, they did a three 60 and there was nothing evident. There was no exterior access. They go in, they operate on the first floor up. We have a basement fire and Now, that second do engine has to start making decisions on where their line is gonna go. Or vice versa, right? So you have a basement fire where there is basement access. The first do engine, in in our case, they go to the basement. That's side Charlie. That second do engine now has to make a decision With the first due engine as to where that second line is going to go. Do they need it to go to side Charlie or do they need it to go to the first floor? And that still allows for them to make those decisions, but it gives them guidance on the decision making process and also empowers them to make those decisions in the absence of strategic command.

Bob Howarth (2) 24:42

And it entitles them, because it entitles them to make that change within the guidelines.

Jamie Howarth 24:48

You mean enable?

Bob Howarth (2) 24:49

Yeah, enable.

Jamie Howarth 24:50

Enable, yeah. Yeah. So it enable, it enables them. It gives them the tools that they need. Entitling them would make them feel like their decision is their decision and it's outside of the rank structure. So I do think that, sorry if you hear our German short hair pointer in the background whining. Whining. Whining. Whining. He wants attention and he's staring at me with some evil eyes. Yeah. So let's get back to that because when you're talking about the empowerment versus entitlement we have people that come into the fire service from all different backgrounds. We've already established that. We know it's a metaculture and we know that it's complex with that being said. You cannot control things like the employees how they were brought up, right? Some people were brought up in really strict households that already had that structure in place. And some people have never had structure or have always had somebody else do stuff for them. So not only are they coming into the fire service where they need to make those critical decisions it's not like they're coming in. Where they've made decisions already in early adulthood, they've never made decisions before in their life with anything. And then we as supervisors have to not have to, we do, we have to bring them up to speed, and they have to be treated like an adult, and we have to ensure that they are working within that system, and they have to understand. Where they fall into place and if you enable them negatively where you do all of those things for them I see this in training where you have somebody that's trying to work through a process and It's taking too long, so like it's like instant gratification. You want to try and grab the tool from them to get them and I actually did this previously and you want to just do it. No, you have to do it this way, right? And there's 1000 ways I skin a cat, but you have to do it this way. And now they just One, expect that somebody else is going to do it and they didn't have to work through the decision making process on how they were going to get from point A to point B. And we jump in so quickly instead of allowing that process to take place where they can be empowered to make those decisions. And I feel like if you start grabbing the bags for them and not having them do the stuff that they should be doing that's based on their rank and based on their responsibilities, you are entitling them. To make those decisions outside of that or they're just not going to contribute to your team to the max of their ability and that's hard.

Bob Howarth (2) 27:27

So let's talk a little bit about that from the non emergency side. In my current job, we have to supply budgets to the clients. Every client wants to know how much is this going to cost for you to go out and do a fire investigation or a roof inspection or whatever they're going to do. If that client sends in an assignment and the supervisor immediately takes that assignment, figures out a budget, and sends it back to the client, instead of allowing the expert to do it, instead of allowing them to reach out to that client, make that decision, set a budget, go through all of that, all you're doing is allowing them to not participate in that. And that hurts. That hurts the team because now you don't have that Ability for that person to just fall back in if the supervisor is too busy. Somebody else can do it if you allow them to do it. But if the supervisor is too busy and you haven't ever allowed them, then it's going to wait because they're just not going to do anything.

Jamie Howarth 28:32

And that goes back to you can delegate tasks but not responsibility, right? You can delegate to your team to do those things or give them, enable them by giving them the authority to do them, but the responsibility still holds with you. If one of your team members completely botches just sending out something for, like you had said. That still falls on you.

Bob Howarth (2) 28:58

Your responsibility never goes away.

Jamie Howarth 29:00

And I think people get scared to allow, to let go of that control because of that, instead of having faith in their people. But you have faith in your people by training with them and by training them and having hard conversations with them so that you can trust in them and allow for them to do those things that are within their scope of their practice. I don't want, a two year firefighter going out and making command level decisions on a fire. However, I do know that if they're a two year firefighter, then in three years, they're going to be able to take the test and potentially get promoted immediately. And when that happens, I feel that it's better. It's more beneficial to the department. to the community, to your team, if they have had some practice with that mindset already and have had the ability to think of some of those things and come up with some of those decisions on their own in a training atmosphere. So they can sit in the seat. And the other good thing about them sitting in the seat with this is in training, they may realize that maybe being an officer is not for them.

Bob Howarth (2) 30:10

Very true. Some people don't want to be an officer.

Jamie Howarth 30:13

They think they do want to be an officer. There's always the good old I just want to get off the medic And, insert whatever reason here that isn't a good reason to become an officer. That isn't something that's going to drive your team to be better for the organization, be better for the community. Just insert whatever here. I do think allowing for them to make decisions, With support from an officer in that training scenario will, what I did with the volunteering when I before I got hired. It's like a tribe before you buy deal, right? We know that line of duty death reports are. Are pushing to not have people act out of class. So I am also not a supporter of people acting out of class because that goes again, back to the responsibility and the accountability. But we should be using our training time and our training scenarios to raise them to the next level. It'll make them better firefighters at their level, but also we'll prepare them for the next position or. It'll make them realize, yes, I really want to do this and like really drive into it and learn everything they can or decide, maybe this just isn't for me. And the bottom line with all of this is, this job is not for everyone.

Bob Howarth (2) 31:31

It is not.

Jamie Howarth 31:33

And. It's just I don't know. I'm trying to think of a random job that I would totally not be good for. I'm sure you can think of something maybe like a baker or something because, I can't cook where I go and I just completely screw it up and it just doesn't, it doesn't set my soul on fire.

Bob Howarth (2) 31:50

Amazon delivery driver, perfect job that you would not be good at. Are you

Jamie Howarth 31:55

coming at my driving skills?

Bob Howarth (2) 31:57

No, I'm just coming at you. It's my

Jamie Howarth 31:58

backup skills, isn't it? I think it is.

Bob Howarth (2) 32:01

You don't like to navigate in the same way that a driver like that would have to navigate.

Jamie Howarth 32:06

I do have to navigate some in my job.

Bob Howarth (2) 32:08

You do, but you don't, that doesn't mean you like it. Just because you do it doesn't mean you like it. It's not

Jamie Howarth 32:13

all day.

Bob Howarth (2) 32:14

That would make you miserable. And that's not the job for you. But there's other people out there who love to drive from house to house and drop off packages. That's their passion. That's their job.

Jamie Howarth 32:27

Yeah. And they like to be alone. I like being in the fire service because that's what I really like about it. That was a transition I had to get used to as well. Where my battalion is I'm in a station, so I have the battalion suite. And then I. When I first got promoted, like I really wanted to latch on to that crew, but they're not my crew. They are my crew in a sense that I supervise, all of the stations that fall under me, but they are that officer's crew. And it's, that is also a balanced for me to empower that officer, especially in the same station that I'm in to be able to not jump in and make those decisions for them.

Bob Howarth (2) 33:06

The old saying, it's lonely at the top. It applies. As you move up, it becomes lonelier and lonelier. You have that full crew and then you have one crew, you have. no crew, you're riding in the battalion vehicle by yourself, and then you get up to the assistant chief, the deputy chief, the chief, there's less people around you every time you move up, and that, that does make a difference. If you like to be around people, that's something you have to prepare for.

Jamie Howarth 33:36

Yeah I like to go around the stations and see the people I like when we have battalion level training because it allows for me to participate a little bit more and to just be around the crews more in that capacity. And then if I do have, let's say somebody who wants to promote to battalion chief, then I can also allow for them to. to see it from my perspective or to see it, to see what it's like there. I usually try to incorporate a command portion into our into our training. And I think that giving them practice to talk on the radio and to think through those processes is helpful as well. Yeah,

Bob Howarth (2) 34:16

It is. And I think it goes a long way for your Any officer or any leader to simply say when the time is appropriate, because there's not always the appropriate time to do it, but to simply say to that person you're trying to mentor or you're trying to turn into a leader, what did you think? What did you think about what happened? What did you see? Or, to go through and talk to them about that, they may be asking you why did you make that decision? I distinctly remember a crew being very upset about a decision that a chief made where they thought that he was trying to put opposing hand lines in service. And that crew asked that chief for an explanation. And after he explained it to them, the situation was over, they're back at the firehouse. He explained to them exactly what his thought process was. And as soon as he did that, it changed their tone completely because they realized that he was in a decision making process that they weren't seeing at the same time.

Jamie Howarth 35:19

We have a whole podcast episode up on this seeing it from different lenses and yes, there's power in the why. There is power in the why. People understanding why something is being done, I do feel helps them to troubleshoot if something doesn't go the way that they expect it to go. And, realistically speaking, we are in such a dynamic job that things Often, there's always like some random bingo card in there, right? I didn't have that on my bingo card today. So you have to be able to overcome some of the, that thought process and you have to understand the why behind it. Now again, there's a difference between asking why at the right time and the right place. Instead of, engine X, I need you to go throw a ladder here. Why? No, now it's not the time to ask me why unless it's a safety issue, right now. It's not the time to ask me why. And that's where the entitlement comes in. It's an order that was given on the fire ground. You have to work within the system. If command gives you that order, you have to work within it. Once the call is over. Or if you do see something that could be different this happens to me where I have another unit that's in place to do a job. So I've assigned a truck company over here to perform a task. And I have another company that's already in place to do that task. They will call command and say, Hey, we're already in place and this is where we are. Would you like us to take that assignment versus Hey, we're in place. We're taking that assignment. Boom. And that's where empowerment versus entitlement comes in for me to be able to see that and say, okay, yeah, that makes sense. Like they're in the right place. And that's more efficient and that will help us get the job done faster. But to just say, I'm going to go do it or deploying themselves outside the SOGs or outside of the command structure it really causes issues on the fire ground and in the firehouse also.

Bob Howarth (2) 37:20

So I think it. Everything that you said 100 percent agree with, and I think that it's important to say it again, the why is very important when the time is appropriate. If the time is not appropriate, the why becomes a hindrance. If the time is appropriate, explaining the why for emerging leaders gives them a lot of information for them to consider and think about and play through their head.

Jamie Howarth 37:49

And information is power.

Bob Howarth (2) 37:51

Yep.

Jamie Howarth 37:51

And information is empowerment. And ultimately that's what we want to do is empower our people to be the better version of themselves, to be a better part of the team, to be higher functioning teams. When we go out on the fire ground, we are giving the best that we can, not only to the community, but to ourselves and our families, to ensure that we come home unharmed and that we're able to do our job appropriately. I. I could probably have 17 podcast episodes on empowerment versus entitlement. This does segue us into having hard conversations and other ways that you can do it. But if just for our listeners to take a little bit away from this, the next time you're having training and you have someone who's mentioned that they do want to promote, consider allowing them to be in the decision making process. But at the same time still have the structure and the boundaries set forth with your departmental policies and procedures. And I think having those boundaries and structures and allowing them to be a part of the decision making process within that structure is going to make them a better part of the team, a better leader, and it's going to help them to promote into those positions without starting completely fresh.

Bob Howarth (2) 39:07

And I'm going to. Piggyback on that and say, our listeners can do a takeaway of when you're sitting in your office, when you're sitting at the table, when the chief calls and says, we need you to do this. It's really nice. If it's an appropriate time to turn to that other person and say, okay, this is what we have to do. What do you think? What should we do? Or how would you like to do

Jamie Howarth 39:31

it?

Bob Howarth (2) 39:31

Yeah.

Jamie Howarth 39:32

Who has ideas on how to get it done?

Bob Howarth (2) 39:34

Give them that opportunity. If you want to make them a decision maker, give them the opportunity to make the decision. It's at a time when if they make the wrong decision, you can go, no, we're not doing that.

Jamie Howarth 39:44

Yes. And also they have to understand, and this is a really important takeaway is that while you are asking for their input, once the decision is made. that supervisor, the decision has been made, period. And then that's the direction that we go. I do think it's important in especially non emergent situations to allow for input. But once that decision is made, that's it. Like the whole team has to be on board and we have to start moving in that direction.

Bob Howarth (2) 40:14

And that responsibility never goes away from that. Officer from that leader, no matter who's making the decision. We talked about it before, but that responsibility still stays with that leader. So

Jamie Howarth 40:26

yeah

Bob Howarth (2) 40:27

the decision turns out to be something that doesn't quite go perfect, you were all on board, you were all making, the decision was there. But the responsibility is still going to fall back to you. There

Jamie Howarth 40:38

is plenty of times where I've looked at someone and gone that did not work out the way I thought it was going to. That did not go the way that I planned it to. And I'm pretty

Bob Howarth (2) 40:47

sure we all have. But the

Jamie Howarth 40:48

team is always, I feel like my teams have been so good through throughout my career where they're like, yep. And then we all just work together to fix whatever it is that we that we messed up. And that's really, that's when your teams grow. Mistakes, right? As long as you're accepting those mistakes and you learn and grow as a team, they're there to pick you up and you're there to pick them up. And you just, you have that ability to look at them and go, Oh boy. Okay. Let's try something else so I do think that's important. I do want to just put a couple things out there before we end this episode. Number one I did do a podcast episode with Kerry and Kyle with with their podcast. In the heat of command, we actually talked with the last three years, winners of the Darley essay contest. That contest is coming up soon. And that is a time that they're soliciting people to give really good ideas. And it's something that could change your life. It is something that changed, definitely changed my trajectory. It gave me the ability to to meet Kyle and Keri, first of all, and to go to TEEX and be able to speak and realize it was something that I really liked to do. And then I did one podcast with them and I was like I think we can do this. So I'm so grateful to them for Empowering me, right? I'm thankful to them for their support and empowering me to go out there. And when I texted Kerry and was like, Hey, I think I'm actually going to do this. I've been thinking about it for a long time, but I think I'm gonna do it. I got nothing. But yes, absolutely. We need more of this. So much support. So I'm so thankful for that. the National fallen Firefighter Foundation also is a sponsor for that essay contest. And then next week I will be on. Copper state fireman's podcast with Steve. Steve used to work with me and now he's out West. So I'm looking forward to catching up with him and to dig in a little bit more into metaculture. And I'm interested to see the differences between out West versus here and how the leadership is applied with the concepts. So thank you so much for listening in. I think this one went a little better than the last one and next one will be even better. We appreciate you always listening in. Again, we are your host, Jamie Howarth.

Bob Howarth (2) 43:03

I'm Bob Howarth.

Jamie Howarth 43:04

And we'll see you next time.