Lady of Death
Are you curious about death, dying, and the funeral industry in Australia?
Join us as we chat and learn from experts from funeral directors, to embalmers, from those who create floral arrangements to photo presentations and so many more. We will gain insights and have open and important conversations about this topic that is so often shrouded in mystery.
Hopefully you will come away enlightened and have a deeper understanding of this essential part of life!
Lady of Death
Volunteering at the Hospice: A Journey of Connection and Growth
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Death appears in whispers and shadows throughout our lives, yet we rarely make space to truly understand it. In this enlightening conversation, Robyn O'Connell speaks with her nephew Luke O'Connell about his transformative journey as a hospice volunteer in Busselton, Western Australia.
Luke's path into end-of-life care began with personal experiences that subtly guided him toward this sacred space, what started as curiosity evolved into a calling that has fundamentally changed his outlook on life.
Through Luke's thoughtful reflections, we discover hospice care extends far beyond our common perception as simply "the place people go to die." We learn about the comprehensive training volunteers receive, the variety of reasons patients enter hospice care, and the remarkable ways this work ripples through every aspect of a volunteer's life.
Perhaps most striking are the universal lessons Luke has gleaned about what truly matters. "What I don't hear is anybody saying 'geez, I wish I worked harder and I wish I made more money and I wish I bought that extra jet ski,'" he observes about those nearing life's end. Instead, connections, relationships, and time spent with loved ones emerge as the real treasures we collect through our journey.
Whether you're curious about hospice care, contemplating volunteering, or simply seeking perspective on what matters most in life, Luke's insights offer a gentle invitation to approach death not with fear but with openness and compassion. As he says, "Death strips away social barriers - you get to see people as they really are, and it's beautiful."
Ready to explore your own relationship with mortality? Listen now and discover how embracing end-of-life conversations might just teach you how to live more fully.
Contact Luke:
Busselton Hospice Care Inc: https://busseltonhospicecareinc.org.au/
Have questions about death, dying or the funeral industry? Email ask@ladyofdeath.com.au to have them answered in a future episode.
Funeral Directors, embalmers and Grief Counselors too, share stories of death, both murmuring and true, both to mooring and true, with some quirky insights they will slowly unveil.
Speaker 1The shroud of their industry while they tell us their tale. Hi there, my name's Robyn O'Connell and I'm the Lady of Death. In this series of podcasts, we're going to be talking to people that work in and around the area of death, from celebrants to those who work in a mortuary, to all sorts of other peoples involved in death and dying. It's really weird, isn't it, that we don't talk about death. We don't talk about all those things. So hopefully, over this period of time, you might learn something, but you might also have questions that you'd like to ask. So at the end, I'm going to give you an email address to send your questions to and then, after we've done our first series of 10, we'll look at the questions and answers that come from that and then work out where we go from there.
Meet Luke O'Connell: Hospice Volunteer
Speaker 1I want to know from you what you want to know about the industry that seems to be all cloak and daggers. It's not really. There's some good people in it. Yes, there's some shonky too, but, as you'll discover, the people that I talk to absolutely love it. Today, my guest is Luke O'Connell and yes, if the name sounds familiar, luke is my nephew. He's also a funeral celebrant, but today he is joining us from Busselton in Western Australia to talk about his experiences as a volunteer in a hospice. Following on from our discussion last session with Kelly Watt about end-of-life care at home, I thought I would explore more about a hospice, a place where many people choose to end their days. So welcome Luke.
Speaker 2Good morning, Robyn. It's lovely to be with you.
Speaker 1Tell us about yourself. Who do you live with family pets?
Speaker 2So I live in Busselton in Western Australia. I'm originally from New South Wales but I've been in Western Australia for 15 years now and 10 years in Busselton. I am a father of two. I've got a 14-year-old daughter and a soon-to-be 13-year-old son and a six-month-old cat, and I live on my own with the kids and the cats here all the time. The kids are here some of the time and I have a few different hats that I wear. I'm a funeral celebrant and a musician and I also coordinate an aged care program now and also volunteer at the hospice here, and I work at a little bar called the Banksy Tavern here a little bit behind the in the restaurant for the guys there every now and again. So a little bit going on.
Speaker 1Multi-talented and very busy. So before I get you to share with us your journey in the hospice space, I always ask people what is their why? Why do you volunteer in a hospice?
Speaker 2It's such a big question, even though it's a simple one, and what I've found since I've been volunteering with Busselton Hospice Care in the unit here which is located in the hospital there's a four-bedroom ward there in the hospice care, in the unit here which is located in the hospital. There's a four-bedroom ward there in the hospice. And I have found that so many different things have come to me through volunteering and it's had a profound effect on my professional life, on my spiritual life, on my personal life and my friendships and relationships. And there is something about going into a space uh, the end of life space, as we all know and anyone that works in it or has had some experience in it, is a really sacred spot to be and that's a. It's a. It's a huge privilege and an honor to be invited into people's lives in such an intimate way. And volunteering at the hospice is really about supporting the patients and their families and the nursing staff and building, being the bridge, sometimes between parties, having lots of conversations and making lots of cups of tea, sometimes just sitting in silence. It's such a varied thing that we do. There isn't no shift is the same and it is so.
Speaker 2I do it on an ongoing basis and just to clarify as well, I'm also a staff member now with Boston Hospice Care as well as volunteering, so it's a bit of a dual role. And just to also just put it out there at the start too, so I'm not speaking on behalf of the organisation with anything that I say today. I'm speaking on behalf as a volunteer and as a private person, but certainly not speaking on behalf of the organisation. But, yeah, as an ongoing thing, the reason that I still volunteer and I've sort of moved into more of the fundraising side of things I guess the fundraising side of things, I guess with the organisation over the last six to 12 months, is the.
Speaker 2It sort of, I guess, comes back to my values about community and connection are really important things to me and I just find that I'm able to be of service, I'm able to be useful, I'm able to help people. It has an immensely meaningful quality to me that I find really hard to put into words. Sometimes, though, I do talk a lot without finding those words. So, yeah, I hope that answers that question, Robin. What do you think?
Speaker 1Sure. So I think people really don't understand about even volunteering. I know I've been a volunteer in many things over my life and, having been a funeral celebrant and celebrated a lot of lives, the volunteer personality that a lot of people have means they're involved, from everything from kinder, parents, associations at schools right through. You'll find that the person who volunteered at the end of their life was also volunteering somewhere along the way as well, and I think one of the things that we underestimate as people perhaps who don't volunteer, is just how rewarding it is. I can't begin to explain to people that whatever you give out, you get that tenfold, wouldn't you agree?
Speaker 2I could not agree more. It really is. While you were speaking then actually I thought about the slippery slope of volunteering. It's almost like you and thinking of my own experience doing some other things not involved with with the hospice or the end of life space, but starting out volunteering for the pnc at my kids primary school and then fast forward five, five or six years later on the chair of the board on there, because you just sort of once you sort of get involved and then there's always something to be done and if you uh sort of get that space, you often find yourself just sort of moving into positions if you have that inclination to do it.
Speaker 2But I think what you're saying about volunteering it's a way of looking at it in, I guess, an abundance way. Rather than you know I'm sacrificing my time to do something, yes that's, you know I'm losing something there to do that. It is really a. You are going out to to gain an immense amount, um, I can't even overstate that really. Then we'll I guess we'll talk more about the aspects of the, the micro minutiae of how that all happens. But yeah, it is a, it is a and I would encourage anybody to volunteer, particularly in your own life if you're having a bit of a tough time or there's something going on. I've always found for myself that, particularly recently over the last four or five years, if I'm not feeling great, getting out and thinking about somebody else's issues and trying to help them through it is always a great thing for your own mental health to do. So, yeah, there's so many great benefits from it.
Speaker 1Oh, for sure. So share with us the story about how you came to be a volunteer in a hospice.
Speaker 2I'm still trying to nail down exactly the journey, I guess, the path that I've followed, into where I am now. And it's a really fascinating thing to look back on, because there's always things that are popping up that I'd forgotten about or just, yeah, not considered relevant, and then they'll pop up. So I guess if I look at it in recent times will pop up. So I guess, if I look at it in recent times around after COVID happened and my marriage ended as well, and I guess I was probably looking for something I thought about volunteering for a little while and wasn't quite sure how to go about doing that. And I knew, you know, I think most people think when you think about volunteering I was thinking about folding clothes for binnies, you know those sorts of jobs where you you go at the most obvious things that you see in the community, when you go and see people doing things, when you think, when you think of volunteering. But I hadn't considered some of the other things that you can do and I'd seen a few articles pop up in in the newspaper here in Busselton about Busselton hospice care and it just sort of something. It just grabbed something in me that I just kept thinking about it and I wasn't sure why, but then it I just in the end, I just made a call and and just asked a few questions and made some inquiries and then ended up in the pathway of going to, you know, have an interview and then do the induction and training and and moved into it.
Speaker 2But that's sort of the the more concrete. But if I really look back on it, there's steps like the death of my father in 2018. I've had a few experiences around death, I guess, and witnessing a couple of things. There was a car accident at the front of our house in 2011. And I had an experience where I ended up sitting in the cabin of the car with a lady for 20 minutes or so and then she passed away a few minutes after the ambulance got there, and those sorts of things. At the time. You don't really you know it's a pretty big thing that happens, but you don't think about it in the scheme of things a lot. But then when I trace it back, I go that must have had an impact. Surely that experience that I had there I can't there's no way that didn't sort of play some part in pointing me towards being interested.
Speaker 1I'm interested in a way of, you know, finding out more about the space yeah, yeah, of course it would, because it's such a traumatic event at the time. But it's also and I think probably what again, what people underestimate is, actually sitting with someone when they die is such a privilege and we kind of like tend to think about those sorts of things as being something that only happens to people in hospitals and stuff like that and don't realise that it could touch any one of us at any given time. Being in that situation that you were in at that time, I remember, when your dad died, the discussions we had around that as well, and I think you know that was certainly particularly for you being so far away from where your dad lived. So your dad was in Canberra, you were in WA, not exactly around the corner, so you know you can see parts of that coming into it as well.
Training and Daily Life as a Hospice Volunteer
Speaker 1So tell me, share with us about your journey since you started. You briefly touched on it before, but talk about the type of training that you had. How long was it then, what that role led to, the other roles and all that sort of stuff. So tell me about your journey with the hospice.
Speaker 2Yeah, sure. So my first steps were to make that call and I spoke to our volunteer coordinator and had a conversation on the phone and then they invited me to come in and meet with her and one of the senior volunteers that's been there for a long time. The hospice has been operating for 25 years and there are volunteers that have been there for all of that time, or most of that time, which is an amazing record of service. So I met with kelly and one of the the ladies that is one of the senior volunteers and and have a chat and interview and, of course, they're very interested to find out why you'd like to be involved in in this space. Um, for many reasons.
Speaker 2Um, it's, uh, you've, you need to be doing it for the right reasons and you can't sometimes really know that, I think, until you start doing it yourself. So there is a fairly diligent process of making sure people are there, and that's about caring for them, as well as the people that they're going to be coming into contact with, especially if they've had a recent loss themselves. So if you've lost somebody in the last couple of years, generally that will be a, you know, a gentle, we'd love to have you on board, but you'll need to come back, you know, when things have settled down a little bit for you and see where you're at, so just, and then after the interview, then I guess they ascertain whether or not that's you're going to be a suitable candidate and then you'll get invited to the training which takes place over. There's a couple of different ways of doing it now, but it's about four days roughly, of training and that covers lots of different aspects of the end of life space, from clinical through to the very sort of more soft, sort of almost counselling side of things and just pastoral care, how to communicate with people when they're grieving in a really dysregulated situation and state, some cultural considerations, lots of different things for First Nations people and for people who, for Australians that have come here from elsewhere, and, yeah, lots of different aspects of it.
Speaker 2And also just that building that connection with the other people that are going to be volunteering with you, with the staff, with the other existing volunteers, and once you get through that process and there's a police check, that's part of that as well once you do that and you've decided because you're checking in through the whole thing as well, just to make sure that you know this is going where you'd like to go and you're comfortable. And people do drop out of it through the induction process as well, because they get there and maybe within a day or so they think, hey, I'm not, this isn't for me for whatever reason, or it might be a personal thing, and they've gone. Hey, I'm not actually okay to be around this sort of space at the moment because it's a bit too tender for me, which is absolutely, you know, a great realisation to come to for yourself. I think there's a lot of self-knowledge to be gained through, you know, trying to get involved in the volunteer space, even if it doesn't go the way that you think it might.
Speaker 1Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I did that after Becky died and I was doing parent support, and it's not until you look at your own grief and deal with your own grief that you can then be of help to someone else, rather than just hoping it.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2And that's as we all, as many of us know, if we're around, this grief doesn't go away. It's always with you. But you, you have to be at a, you have to be at a place where you've got it in, you know where. Where it should be I guess should's probably not a word to use but where it, where it's healthy and constructive and you're able to operate and be of service to others and not take on too much. And, um, yeah, and make sure you're okay, um, so, just going on with the process after that. So once you accept it into the program and you decide you want to go ahead, they'll pop you on shifts. There's always two people on a volunteer shift and they'll pop you on as an extra. So you have a buddy shift with other volunteers as an extra person there for a little while until you're ready to go on to do it just with one other volunteer.
Speaker 2They run three shifts through the day here in bustleton at every sort of palliative care, setting and hospice. It would be different, but we have a morning and an afternoon and an evening shift, finishing up at that 8 30 and, yeah, you're there for about four hours at a time and you can volunteer for um. You know, I I do a shift usually a couple once every couple of weeks, so it's not a huge time commitment too. That's. The other thing is that people think that volunteering, you know you'll get on board something and you'll be told you need to do 15 hours. Here you can do whatever you like.
Speaker 2That's the beauty of volunteering you don't have to do anything. You can turn up and say I just want to do four hours once a month, and that will be mostly appreciated muchly appreciated, I should say To do that four hours a month is four hours that other people aren't doing and that you wouldn't be doing otherwise. So, uh, that is that's enough. Whatever you can contribute is enough, even if it's an hour a month. So, uh, yeah, that's sort of a little overview of how that works. And then, going forward, you just get rostered onto a, onto a regular shift, and then you fulfill those shifts and go on. There's there's some ongoing training and development support available. The hospice is always putting on actual gatherings and meetings for the volunteers and checking in and the staff. Our volunteer coordinator, kelly, is amazing and always checking in on the staff. There's a lot of heart involved in the organisation and in the space in general, and it's just an absolute privilege to be part of it.
Speaker 1So going on from then volunteering. How long did you just volunteer for before you took the next step in that organisation?
Speaker 2That would be around three and a half four years, I guess. So I've only come on board as a staff member in February this year, so quite recently, six months and in a very different role. So I'm yeah'm working in aged care there for a program called Staying in Place, which I love as much as everything else I'm doing, but a bit of a different space but related to the hospice's mission of life lived well, dying, death and bereavement and supporting people in our community. Life lived well covers just about everything, I think. So you know, if we think we can help work, we will, but I guess, yeah. So the volunteering was, yeah, three and a half four years of just being a volunteer, but I was also pitching in with a little bit of fundraising stuff and helping out and volunteering in other roles for the hospice, as well as being on the ward and fundraising and those sorts of things and just being involved socially as well, which is these are people that I admire and respect and we have.
Speaker 1Okay, and now? What is your role actually, now? What do you actually do?
Speaker 2Yeah, sure. So I guess, if I'm looking just at the hospice, at the Busterman Hospice Care, I work in the role coordinating aged care two days a week. At the moment I do that in my job, share that role with my colleague, jane, who's a registered nurse, and big shout out to Jane, she's an amazing person who I'm also just, yeah, I love sharing the role with her and doing that. So that's the aged care role. And then I volunteer in the hospice, sort of in the main mission, I guess, of Boston Hospice Care. So I've got the paid role there. And then I'm also doing volunteer stuff and around the edges, doing other fundraising things and helping out.
The Realities of Hospice and Palliative Care
Speaker 2We're doing our Go Blue for June fundraising month annually. It's this month obviously being June, so there's a bunch of events and things going on. So I hosted a Bunnings barbecue last Saturday. I was the booth captain for that and spent the day at Bunnings, you know, talking to the community and helping. Actually I didn't even cook one snack, robin, how cheeky is that. I organised a Bun bones, barbie, and I did not touch the tongs the entire day. I was very shocked with myself, but I did do a lot of chatting to people and it was great to be there and the other volunteers from the organisation came and helped out.
Speaker 1And you also do this thing where you very I'm going to say stupidly, but you jump off a pier.
Speaker 2It's very timely that you've said that because as part of the Go Blue for June events, we have an event called the Plunge, which is on the winter solstice. So next Saturday we have a bunch of people jumping into or running into the water at the beach at Busselton, off the beach, and as part of that I do a personal GoFundMe. This is the second year I do a personal GoFundMe to try and raise money and I actually go and jump off Busselton Jetty, which is the longest jetty in the Southern Hemisphere, but about 100 meters out there's a spot where I jump off. There it's the middle of winter, it was a bit stormy last year and there's seaweed everywhere, so it's going to be interesting.
Speaker 2I haven't actually got the GoFundMe up yet this year. I've been running a bit behind, just a bit on my plate. It's going up today. So I'm going to have one week to raise. I'm going to aim. We're aiming for $1,000. I made about $780 last year. If we, I'm jumping in, if we get over $500, if we get to $1,000, my CEO, james Jarvis of Boston Hospice Care, is going to jump in with me and then if we make it to $1,500, I've also got a friend, cassie, from the Bendigo Bank here. She's going to jump in as well. So I'm hoping to drag three people two other people in with me next Saturday, and if we drown, at least we'll drown. We won't drown alone.
Speaker 1Have you seen the weather yet for next Saturday? I?
Speaker 2am too scared to look, quite frankly, so I haven't looked at the long-range forecast, but we will see.
Speaker 1Mind you, you're doing okay in WA at the moment. You're not all that cold compared to Melbourne. I think we had one degree last night, so it's not quite that bad, but still it's a cold. Jump into a water and normally you're very well. I know previously you've been interestingly attired, may I say.
Speaker 2I'm going to be wearing a dress, I think this year. Actually I think that's the plan. So one of the events we had was the Hash House Harriers here the local branch. They walk up and down the street wearing blue dresses, rattling the tin for the hospice. So we're going to steal a couple of their dresses and James and I'll jump in suitably attired. So that's kind of part of the fun. It's just I'm going to make myself look even sillier than I normally do. So, yeah, looking forward to it.
Speaker 1So share with us how people reacted when you first started this journey and you told people that you volunteer in palliative care. What were people's reactions to you?
Speaker 2Mostly very supportive and it still remains that way. But you do get some really interesting reactions from people because the the, you know, the death space, is something we don't speak about enough and people find it quite confronting and it's a yeah. So there is a real different array of reactions that you'll get from people, and ranging from why the hell would you want to do that? All the way through to oh, that's amazing. I, you know, never thought about something like that. What a what an amazing want to do that All the way through to oh, that's amazing. I'd never thought about something like that. What an amazing thing to do and being fascinated by it.
Speaker 2And then I always enjoy having those conversations because you get to engage somebody in it and a lot of the time people haven't really thought much about it and sometimes you get really lovely responses and yeah, but yeah, some funny, some funny things too. Some people shut down immediately and just can't even, you know, won't even go there at all. I've had, you know, personal relationships and where, where people you can't even speak about what you've been. You know that you even went into the ward to do that, to volunteer, because even just the mention of the word is is problematic for them, so it's really interesting, isn't it?
Speaker 1I was at a function yesterday and, uh, we were talking. There was a group of us talking and someone came over and introduced themselves and looked at my company, which is called Last Farewell, and sort of said oh, what do you do? And I said I talk to people about end-of-life stuff. I help them put their affairs in order and arrange funerals and do all that sort of stuff. And you could see immediately her body language was like this barrier just went up and she could not get away quick enough. It was like, you know, I didn't even finish saying anything before she quickly turned to someone else and said oh, can you tell me? Yada, yada, yada, you know, just like anything to get away with. And the look on her face when she was sat near me was like, oh no, I might. I didn't talk about it. Obviously I could see how uncomfortable she was.
Speaker 1But it's been a fair while, I must say, since I've had that sort of reaction where you literally see the shutters come straight up in front of your face and like, please do not talk to me about this. Most of the time people are kind of like oh, that's an interesting area and you know what, what does that entail? Or whatever. But some people you can just see these shutters that come up, like it. It's like one of those bank what I you know imagine those bank things that come up when they're going to be robbed. Just that shield comes up in front of them and you're kind of standing there going, oh this is good. I don't know where I'm going to go with this conversation right now, but generally, like she did, she immediately turned to someone else and asked a question. She'd already asked them what they did, but she went back to something that they had said so that this conversation did not have to continue.
Speaker 1Now there may be many reasons for that. It may not just be because she's uncomfortable with the subject, which is quite common, but it also may have been that she's had somebody die very recently and kind of like, gone, I can't go there because I know I'm going to be upset. So you know, there's not always the reaction that you presume that it is, that they don't want to talk about it. Sometimes it's just that natural reaction to just hide from what you know that that word called death because it might upset me, because somebody's died just recently and I don't want to in this social setting.
Speaker 1I do not want to appear to be vulnerable so when I don't know anyone, with someone who is visiting the the group at the time. But but it's, it's a fascinating area to kind of talk about, because people either want to know a lot or they kind of like go, oh, this is. I've even kind of said to people, had people say to me oh, it's a bit creepy to want to work in this sort of area, isn't it? And it's one of the reasons for this podcast is to make people realise that we are ordinary people just doing different sorts of jobs.
Speaker 2Speak for yourself. Robyn, I fully agree. I've got so much sympathy for people not wanting to talk about it. And, yeah, I never force anybody to move into a conversation they're not comfortable with at all, but I never not want to talk about it. And, yeah, I'd never force anybody to move into a conversation they're not comfortable with at all, but I never not want to have the conversation. I'll never shy away from speaking about it with people and I'll invite it because I know that, for all those reactions you might get that are just, you know, just a normal conversation or being someone being averse to it, there'll be somebody that will come and seek me out, you know, in a social setting, if they find out that that's what I do, um, that, and and also being a funeral celebrant too, and just, I guess some people gravitate towards it because they need to.
Speaker 2for a reason they need that conversation, they want to, they want to actually speak to somebody maybe that they don't know and also that isn't a family member or a friend that they feel is going to judge their or, or you know, judge their behavior, or yeah, and someone who's not going to shut them down yeah and change the subject yeah, like I like that, like the lady did you you mentioned before and and that, uh, or yeah, absolutely, or say something as, as we know, when people are trying, when they feel awkward, when we feel awkward because we all do it, I even being around this we don't know the right thing, to say all the time um, that's impossible, um, so in everybody, thinks we do, though yeah, look, and we obviously we have some experience, you know, and we we sort of understand things, maybe a little bit more than a lay person would.
Speaker 2I'd like to think so. Otherwise I, you know, I wouldn't wouldn't be putting myself out there to conduct funerals to people and putting myself into a position with, with people who are vulnerable, if I didn't think I knew what I was doing, so, um, or that I had something to offer. So it's, yeah, really interesting, uh, mix of of reactions and and just having those conversations, though, is such an important thing and and you can really change somebody's whole outlook and and what they think, just with a few minutes of chatting and that, and that that's a. That's something that happens through hospice volunteering, through being a celebrant, through just being a person who is comfortable to talk about this stuff, um, all the time, just those little conversations that they're really meaningful it's really satisfying as well, isn't it?
Speaker 1because it's it's kind of like you know, you've given them this permission to ask those questions that they wanted to ask but didn't know who to ask. They, you know the the the lady of death reels showed me that with with the reels that I made and they questions that people kept asking me about things that you know, all sorts of things Should children go to funerals? All those questions that they might have had but weren't quite game enough to sort of put themselves out there to ask in a, in the setting, whereas privately with you, they can ask that sort of stuff and know that you're not going to turn away from them and not not give them an answer yeah, yeah, absolutely there's.
Speaker 2It's holding space. You know it's a term that's used a lot, but it is I know it is the it is.
Speaker 2There's no other way, better way to say you are, you're holding a, you're a container for people to. You know, you're presenting something for them where they can put out something they might feel vulnerable about, they might feel a bit silly about asking about. They might just be emotionally really in turmoil at the time and just being able to say you're allowed to be like that. You can, you can ask me and you can talk about anything. You tell me how you feel and you're not going to get any judgment from here and you're just going to get an open and open ears and open heart.
Speaker 1So yeah, yeah acceptance exactly so people always think about palliative care or hospice as a place that you only go at the very end. Can you explain what you've seen happen there?
Speaker 2Yeah, I thought that too before I came on board. Even strangely enough, even with my own father having been in and out of palliative care in the time, in the last six months of his life and sort of coming in and going home, I didn't take on board what that actually meant is that people think that the hospice is the end. That is often what people and the word is difficult for people to even sometimes talk about or hear, as it has some connotation so they just think that's the end of the road and that's scary. That's the scariest thing people have in life to think about, apart from losing somebody else is thinking about the end of your existence. For most of us it's a pretty hard thing to contemplate. That's not the whole thing at all.
Speaker 2So people come into the hospice for various reasons. Sometimes it is end of life, care in the end oflife, the actively dying phase, as we would say. Sometimes they come in to have just their health condition stabilised for a little bit so they can, just because the conditions at home might not be conducive to that. Their health's deteriorating too quickly. So they'll come back in, get stabilised, get to a position where they're actually able to go home again, come in and out and that's a beautiful thing because you sort of get to. You know, see people come in and then get to the joy when they get to go back to their family again. And people that come into the hospice as well. They might be a bit wary or scared. The families might be a bit wary or scared when they come in, though I don't think there's many people that come in there and go, oh I wish we hadn't ended up in here, because if you're not in the hospice you're out in the ward and that's a fine place to be.
Speaker 2But that's in the mainstream health system. It's not geared for the end of life care. It's such a peaceful, lovely space. The staff are amazing. The nurses and the staff and the palliative staff, the doctors and the other specialists and everybody are amazing people and the volunteers are just unbelievably amazing. So that is the best place to be when you're at, you know, whatever phase of the end-of-life space you might be in.
Speaker 2So, yeah, there's lots of different things and as an organisation just speaking about Busselton Hospice Caring there's lots of different things we do in the community around bereavement support, complementary therapies. Lots of different things we do in the community around bereavement support, complementary therapies, lots of different programs that we offer support for people and their families around the space as well. So there's so much more to it than just going into a bed in a hospice to pass away. That is so not what the the core thing that the hospice you know was was created for, but there's just so much that goes into that as well. It just you can't describe it in a word like anything. Really.
Speaker 1You can't describe it with one word, so yeah, so many people express their wish to die at home and then many people who start off with that idea and then change to going into hospice. And if so, why do you think they change? What happens in that journey? Have you seen that?
Personal Growth Through End-of-Life Work
Speaker 2It's not something I probably would say I have a lot of experience with, but I absolutely understand people's wishes to die at home and to live at home in the end stages of their life as well. I think a lot of the time it really comes down to just medically, and you know and I'm not a clinical person, I'm not a doctor or anything approaching a clinical person, so but I would imagine that they assess, you know, the level of discomfort, suffering and pain that that person could be experiencing at home, and there are, you know, at some point. It's just not okay to really expect somebody to live like that and they end up having to come into the hospital or the hospice as well. But, yeah, I probably wouldn't say too much more about it, because it's not something I know much more than that. I guess what I would say on that, though, is that it's always better to have a plan in place and have the things set to make those conditions, set the conditions to make that possible that you can pass away at home.
Speaker 2That takes planning, and often that's difficult, because people tend to put off things or be a bit in denial of things or don't want to face the reality of it and I have so much compassion for that.
Speaker 2I understand that people. You know I'm never going to judge anybody for being scared about this stuff and yeah, so I guess that's. Even though it's hard to do, setting the conditions and having everything organised and in place, ready to support that decision, is the way to do it and then to give yourself the best chance to do it. And that means engaging with palliative care, you know, with the legal side of it, with all those things as well, and talking to doctors and everything. So, yeah, it's a complicated thing and there's people that are much smarter than I am that make those sort of decisions. But yeah, I would just say engage and have the conversations with your loved ones and and start planning for things, and then you you hopefully will be able to follow the pathway you choose so in in your role as a volunteer, as opposed to somebody who's a a counsellor or a pastoral care person or whatever?
Speaker 1do you find that people are comfortable enough with you to share their regrets or tell a volunteer you know, because obviously over time you develop a relationship with them. Do you think that people are willing to say those things to you and if so, do you think you know what sort of value do you think that gives you? If you know what I mean, yeah, sometimes they do.
Speaker 2It's such a varied experience with every patient and every person that I see, and even in my other roles, working as a funeral celebrant, as you know well, robyn, there's such a varied tapestry of human experience out there, so it's pretty rare, I guess, that I've heard as a volunteer. In a volunteer capacity, I haven't really had many conversations where people are talking about regrets, or every now and again that might pop up, but I guess because of our, the nature of the volunteer role too is that we're there for a shift and then we go. So you might, you know, we might only see that person once when spend four hours, and and in that time you might only see them for 10 minutes or even a minute, and some shifts you don't see the patients at all because they are in the end of life, actively dying phase and their families are with them and we're not in there at all. So yeah, I guess just by the law of probability it doesn't come about all that often, but when, when you do have those conversations, though it's interesting, the regrets generally aren't.
Speaker 2I don't think I've ever heard anybody complaining bitterly about something, but they might just have a gentle regret about something that they don't. You know that I don't speak to my son or I don't do this. I did, you know, my friend and I became estranged, that sort of thing. What I can tell you, what I don't hear, is you never hear anybody say geez, I wish I worked harder and I wish I made more money and I wish I bought that extra jet ski.
Speaker 1So those sorts of things are not on anybody's mind ski, so those sorts of things are not on anybody's mind. Um, and I think we learn personally. We learn from that. We realize that the as a funeral celebrant, you learn that all of these people who've absolutely worked their guts out all their lives and finally got to retire and died a week later. I think retirement's really dangerous, to be honest. But it's just my personal opinion.
Speaker 2I'm sure the government would love to hear that, robin, because they'd probably like to have everybody working until 75.
Speaker 1So yeah, yeah that's right, but it's those sorts of things that you hear from families that they say oh, dad, when we had grandchildren, dad said how much he missed a vow growing up because he was so busy working to provide and what's it all for really, at the end of the day? So a lot of people are very glad that they've got to experience grandchildren because they were able to give them the time that they were too busy working for to give their own children, and that's you know. I think that they're the lessons that I've taken away. A lot I've learned how to be a grandmother through the funerals that I've done, because my grandmother lived in New South Wales and and I didn't have any grandparent. So I learned how to be a grandmother through listening to grandchildren speak about their what was important to them, not not the, not the uh things that they did for them, but what was important to them.
Speaker 1And I remembered very distinctly and it still makes me well up, even to think about it listening to this young man who may have been in the 30s, who who said that his mother, his grandmother, every time she saw him she would cup his face with her hands and give him a kiss. And he said I hated, I hated it. He said, you know, particularly when I was a teenager, she kept doing it and I hated it. And he turned to his grandmother in the coffin and said, nan, what I would give to feel your hands on my face again. And I went. I'm going to remember that, you know, because it's and my grandparenting skills have all come from those sorts of comments from grandchildren of what actually ends up being important to them and it's all about time, the time they spent with them. I think you know so.
Speaker 2Yeah, okay, sorry, just on that, rob. I just wanted to add something and that was just the. When you hear those stories, sometimes the people you're speaking to and this is probably more from the funeral cellar and perspective but you're speaking to the families and they talk about the fact that you know. So tell me about your dad what are some words to describe him? And sometimes it is. He was such a hard worker and sometimes there's not much more than that, and they are immensely proud of him.
Speaker 2You know being a hard worker, so, but I always, I guess I walk away from that and think I feel a bit sad for them in a way, that that's kind of the primary thing they've taken from their dad is that he was a just a hard worker. There's no one. But also one thing and just talking about what we get out of this personally and the changes personally that I've made, it's just given me such an immense amount of understanding and compassion for people and to meet them where they are and to see that I've philosophically become a determinist pretty ferociously, in that I look at people now and just think pretty ferociously, and that I look at people now and just think I can absolutely understand why they are where they are, given the circumstances that come from and the genetic lottery and just chance and fortune. So when I look at those things, even though I might think, oh, that's a bit sad that they didn't, you know, they just think that that's a hard worker.
Emotional Resilience and Self-Care
Speaker 2But you know, kindness, compassion, generosity weren't mentioned anywhere. You know those sorts of things and I just think, well, that's just their life, doesn't mean he was a bad dad or a bad person or that they don't value the right things. It just means that that is their life and their existence and it's as worthy of dignity as anybody else's. So, yeah, it's really changed the way that I look at people and made I like to think, I hope so. I like to think it's made me a better person in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1So what about you now? Have you thought about your own mortality?
Speaker 2Absolutely. I wouldn't say I dwell on it, but it's something that is always. I guess it's just there for me and I think that's actually part of the reason I'm doing this. I think that's something that I've had with me since I was quite young. I'm not really sure why, but it's something I thought about.
Speaker 2I used to be quite scared thinking about death as a kid and even as a younger adult, and I think, as everybody is, that's a very natural thing to feel. But I just, I guess it's something that I'm not scared of, but it's also something that I'm fascinated with, because I think that acceptance of mortality and death is a huge part of the formula to live a better life and that acceptance is inherent in being able to, I think, go and be able to try and help other people and doing what we do in this space. So it's something you've got to grapple with yourself. If you're going to be doing this, definitely you can't be going into it and not thought about it, or you shouldn't be there, I think. But it's an evolving thing, definitely, and it's changing my sort of spiritual life and my beliefs and what I think about people are evolving all the time and growing and learning and making mistakes, and what I think about people are evolving all the time and growing and learning and making mistakes and and it's uh, yeah, it's, but yeah I do.
Speaker 1I do think about it, rob, definitely. So what do you think are some of the biggest challenges you face or anyone faces?
Speaker 2in what they do in in this particular volunteer space. So the challenges with volunteering are keeping your boundaries. Probably that's your, you know, as a volunteer because you're, it's a quite a bespoke role because you're, you're bound by confidentiality. The organisation obviously has a legal and a regulatory framework that it has to fit into, as in how we conduct ourselves and record keeping and making sure that everything's above board and liability is limited. And you've just got to think about these things when you're in the modern world. So, yeah, those boundaries are probably and that's when they're sort of betting you, when you're getting inducted, is to check whether you're somebody that you understand where you have to draw the line with people, because it is a is easy.
Speaker 2You know our compassion can be, can work against us at times. We can take on too much we can. We can relate to somebody in such a deep way that we cross a, cross a line, cross a um and and do something that either puts yourself personally at risk or the organisation you're representing at risk. So it's really important to fit into that. The role is contained and you're doing what you're supposed to be doing and nothing outside those boundaries. So that I guess, on a volunteer level personally is a thing that I think all of us, and beyond into this space, we all sort of have to be aware of at all times. In terms of other challenges, I suppose it's you know what. I can't really think of anything else, rob, that's a deep challenge, but that's probably the big thing that we all keep in mind and especially the staff and the volunteer coordinators keep a big eye on, especially the staff and the volunteer coordinators keep a big eye on, and do you have support available to you for debriefing and things like that in that space?
Speaker 2Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2That is an inherent part of the whole thing.
Speaker 2So being able to speak to the other volunteers your volunteer, the shift coordinator Kelly, who's our volunteer coordinator, who's a staff member there to speak to her, and then from there, there's other resources available from within the organisation and in the health system as well that people could be referred to if you need to speak to people, always touching base, always checking in at the after shifts, and there's little rituals and little sort of systems that we, you know, get encouraged to use to step in and out of the space as well, to separate yourself emotionally and mentally from where you're coming from and to where you're going, and just maintain why you're there, make sure you're there and able to be present and do that. So there's. All of these supports are there. So you are absolutely not sort of just thrown in there and gone off. You go and volunteer, it's. You are supported at all times, on all sides, by other volunteers, by staff members, by the, by the nursing staff, by everybody there and able to do it in order to do it.
Speaker 1So so, and and this is one of the things that uh a bit of a hobby horse of mine is that changing hats for a moment and going to funeral celebrancy. I think this is a very big area that we lack, that we don't have a good support system for each other and within the industry and I'm talking not just us, but funeral directors, arrangers, hearse drivers, whatever role it is I think it's so easy for us to just be out there paddling on our own. I have a sign in my office that says we are all angels with one wing. In order to fly, we just need to hold on to each other, and I think it's one of the things that makes me very sad about the funeral celebrant industry in particular is that we tend to view other funeral celebrants as competition rather than as colleagues and therefore don't support each other enough in an ongoing way, and I think that's true of funeral directors as well.
Speaker 2Yeah, it is a bit of a it can be a bit of a lonely profession being a funeral celebrant and I agree, yeah, there's certainly. I've found there are people that do it that are quite competitive and see it primarily as a business concern. I think, and I get that. I understand it. Personally, I've developed, you know, got a relationship with another celebrant here that I'm good friends with and we really have a good debrief and talk about our experiences together, which is just really lovely to have as well, because, yeah, there isn't, when we're friend all the celebrants are friendly. But there's certainly, you know, there is a competitive aspect to it because everybody wants it is.
Speaker 2It is a job as well as being a vocation, and we've all got a mortgage or rent to pay and that sort of thing, so it is, um, it is really important to make sure self-care is is unbelievably important another term that just gets bandied about, buzzwordy, but self-care is inherent. So, just personally, I'm happy to say I've been going to therapy for five odd years now, just as a bit of a self-exploration thing, and the things I've learned there and the support that I've gotten and the tools that I've just been absolutely essential for me being able to continue in all my roles. So that's for me. Some people might do other things and go, and you know, have Reiki or go and go to the gym or do whatever, but speaking to people and debriefing and all that is really important to do and none of us is an island and you, sometimes it creeps up on you too, without you realising.
Speaker 2It's happened to me a couple of times that you sort of realise that you're a capacity If you don't read the signs and it can come out in ways or at a time that's really inconvenient because you're just, you know, you're exhausted, basically, or just you can't do anymore and you're going to let somebody down and that's the last. You know. It's a huge responsibility being a celebrant, because there's that time. You know the service is the service and everything has to go. So you've got to make it all work. So, yeah, you've got to be at your best yeah, you've got to be at your best.
Speaker 1Do you think that some of the skills that you learned in your capacity as a volunteer and and how they go about supporting you and stuff, has helped you in your funeral celebrancy?
Speaker 2oh, without a doubt, I don't think I would be doing that there's I wouldn't be a funeral celebrant if I hadn't been a volunteer first. I wouldn't have had the experience in the space, I wouldn't have been, had the opportunity to get a feel for it and speaking to people you know, to patients and families and people around death, and had that opportunity to realise, hey, this is I can do this Like. This is something. I'm able to have conversations with people where I feel they're leaving feeling comforted at least a little bit, or just a little bit less burdened than they were before, and I'm able to compartmentalise that and go off and not take it into my day-to-day role, to be compassionate in the moment and do that. And so that's a huge because for me, the funeral celebrancy role, the pastoral care element of it, is what I love the most. It's walking into people's lounge rooms and and kitchens and they're in a you know, and finding, getting a feel for who they are and what sort of emotional state they're in and how they're coping, um, and relating to them and being able to sit there and you know, let them, let them speak and and and have them trust you and then, you know, be able to walk, you know, hold their hand as they walk across that rickety bridge for that week or two before the service and then be able to let them move into the next phase, hopefully feeling stronger and like they've completed that phase of their grieving and paid tribute to their loved ones.
Speaker 2So it's such a you know, I get a bit choked up talking about this stuff, rob, because it's all pretty close to the surface for me at all times these days, which I love. So, yeah, it's the volunteering. It all has played into one another. There's no way that I could have done the celebrancy without being a volunteer, and also being a funeral celebrant feeds back into my volunteering and my work with the hospice in aged care as well. It all supports one another. The things I learn from the experiences in each part of it all supports one another. I like the. You know, the things I learn from the experiences and each part of it all feed into the other one and it's just, yeah, a virtuous circle of sorts, I guess.
Speaker 1It's interesting, isn't it? Because I often have this conversation with families. You know, you walk in and and everybody's kind of polite and we all sit down and everything. And then by the time you leave, they're giving you a hug and saying oh, that wasn't, that wasn't anything like what I was expecting. I didn't expect to laugh, I didn't expect to be so relaxed about it all and everything. And and they said you know, I don't know how you do what you do. And I said you, you have to realize, from our point of view, what a privilege it is for us for for you to open your door and open your hearts to us strangers that you've never met before, who you're solely relying on the fact that the funeral director says we're good at our job and you trust us to go away and tell the story of somebody who meant the world to you, you know, and they kind of like go, oh, I kind of never thought about it in that way. And I said it is such a privilege. You know, we only walk together for such a short walk, but that walk can be so powerful that you know you walk away and you go, that you know you walk away and you go.
Speaker 1I remember seeing a sign in a tram once that said it was actually advertising for the priesthood and it said the pay's not much, but the benefits are out of this world, and I think that's kind of like how I see this. We don't get paid a lot for what we do. See this we don't get paid a lot for what we do, but the personal satisfaction you get of having someone come up to you after a funeral and hug you and say that was everything that we wanted. I don't even know how to begin to say thank you and I just say you just have. You know you don't have to do any more than that, so, um, so I'd just like to briefly touch on. The question I was going to ask was how do you stay emotionally resilient and maintain a healthy work balance? But I think you have nailed this Like tell us about all the different sections of your life.
Speaker 2It's kind of hard to explain. My days are really varied, my weeks are really varied. I never quite know what's happening, which I really love. I love that I've got some variety in my professional life, and so I guess I'll give you an example. Week for me would be say I might have a couple of funerals to do, and maybe one the next week to do and maybe one the next week. So that week I'll be doing a service on a couple of days, which are usually a couple of hour commitment to be there, get there and be there, and then I might meet with a family for the next funeral for a few hours or two hours at some point as well. I'll do a couple of days working on the aged care role, where I'm working whether in the office or at home, a little bit as well, and then I've got the phone on me as well and we're getting lots of calls from people. That's a growing sector definitely.
Speaker 2I'm a musician too, so I perform. I play acoustic stuff with some percussion, so I'll pick up a gig or two on a weekend at venues locally in the southwest of WA, here where I live. So for those listening from elsewhere, overseas and other places in Australia. Busselton is in the southwest of Western Australia, near the Mud River wine region, and it's an amazing place to live. If you had have told me 20 years ago this is where I'd be, I'd wonder how the hell I'd get over there because being from an eastern stater. But there's nothing like love to have you driving across the Nullarbor in your old Mazda wagon listening to AM radio with your PA system thrown in the back in 2010.
Speaker 2That was me driving across to yeah to start a family with the kid's mum, katie, and then we've been separated for about four or five years now but we co-parent really well and we've got two really happy, healthy kids and get along really well.
Speaker 2So that's really lovely. Having a stable family environment and having your personal life sort of going well is really important to be able to help other people and got things and never perfect, and I have as many challenges as anybody else, that's for sure. But I guess one thing that the yeah working in the end of life space has taught me is not to sweat the small stuff and to really. It puts everything in perspective. So I certainly don't get worried about things that I used to and look at the world in a different way. But yeah, so those different aspects. And then I love going into the restaurant bar where I work at. Working in the restaurant I just work front of house and run plates to tables and chat to people and I just like because I'm a big people person. In case that didn't come across at all, I think you don't come across.
Speaker 2I think you guys, of course I love that social connection and just being out and about and chatting to everybody and flying the flag, for you know the different things that I love and you know that gives me opportunities to talk about what I do as well. And I'm sure my friends and people that I meet get annoyed from time to time and just go oh God, here he goes, death guy's here again, and yeah. So I've got to be conscious not to, because I get so excited. Weirdly I get excited about death. It's a.
Speaker 2I know I get it all right, but I there's so much um. It's such a converse to what people think about it. There's so much love and grace and heart in the space. It's such a beautiful place to be. And and just one thing on what you mentioned earlier about getting feedback from families the one thing that struck me really early in the piece being a volunteer is the unbelievable grace and graciousness and generosity shown by people who are experiencing the worst thing in their own life or, you know, a family member dying. They are so unbelievably grateful to the volunteers and to the nursing and staff and doctors and everyone at the hospital. Even while they've got the worst thing happening, people can just be so unbelievably amazing. And so such generosity of spirit and I just think that it brings it out like that loss and grief and grieving sort of strips away the barriers, the social barriers and the cultural barriers from people sometimes and you get to see people as they really are and it's pretty beautiful yeah, it absolutely is.
Speaker 1We could.
Reflections and Life Lessons Learned
Speaker 2We could talk for hours we could robin we will probably after you, stop recording we probably will.
Speaker 1That's right to wrap up our sessions. As a big fan of the actor's studio, I'm going to take a leap from their book and ask a series of questions to each of our guests. So what is your favorite word and why?
Speaker 2oh, I'm gonna have to think of that on the spot. I'm going to say connection, because that's been something that's been in front of my mind for, and increasingly, over the last, most recent phase of my life. And the phrase you said before about the angel only having one wing and you know, just got to hold hands with everybody to fly, just paraphrasing it there. But that sums it up for me too. It's really we've only got each other. Just paraphrasing it there. But that sums it up for me too. It's really we've only got each other. So nothing else really, everything else sort of fades into insignificance for me if you take away that sort of personal connection, and that's where the beauty in life comes from, I think. So yeah, that's my word connection.
Speaker 1Excellent. What is the thing you're most grateful for in your life? What is the thing you're?
Speaker 2most grateful for in your life. There's so much, it's a tough one to pick out. I guess I'm grateful for my children. You know I'd be. You know that's such a being a parent as well is such a journey and you learn so much. And I know that a lot of people don't have kids or struggle to have kids as well. So I'm always grateful I've got two happy, healthy children and got the opportunity to hopefully teach them the values that I love as well. That's just one of very many. They are the most important one, but there's so much else, sure.
Speaker 1If you could work in any other role rather than what you do now, what would it be?
Speaker 2Ooh, so I've already got four jobs, so I've got to sort of eliminate. You know there's so many. That's the thing I feel like I'm doing, the things I want to do, and that's a pretty big thing to have.
Speaker 1That's good.
Speaker 2I can't, you know. I suppose it would have to be something that you know, something related to what I'm doing now. So it's not out of the question that I could do any of those things, I guess. So I can't think of anything, robin. I just feel like I'm doing the things I'm meant to be doing in a vocational sense. It just feels like I'm on the right path.
Speaker 1Nothing sounds better to me. What is the sound that you love the most? The sound that you love the most.
Speaker 2I love music in general. So I'm just going to say generally just music, because it's such a huge part of my life and it brings me, that's part of my self-care as well is that I love singing and I love performing. So more and more recently, the two things have been I've so more and more recently the two things have been I've been putting more and more energy into both music and the end of life stuff that I'm doing and that's, yeah, the sound of a beautiful major melody and a really good chorus hook. That's sort of my jam. So I, yeah, just love good music. I love that it feeds back into that. It's all about connection and, you know, feeling something and relating to somebody else. And, yeah, it's music for me.
Speaker 1If you could have dinner with one person, living or dead, who would it be?
Speaker 2Oh, that's a really tough one. I should have listened better to the previous episodes and actually planned these, shouldn't I? That's a tough one.
Speaker 1No, that's the whole idea of this. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2There's so many. I'm a big history buff, so there's so many historical figures that I would just, I'd just be like Julius Caesar, you know Oliver Cromwell, churchill, but it would be my dad, it would be my dad.
Speaker 1Yeah, I thought it would be as well. What do you think is the most important lesson you've learned so far in your life?
Speaker 2Oh, the most important lesson you've learnt so far in your life? Ooh, the most important lesson? Oh, that's also. That's a really hard one too. The most important lesson I've learnt in my life would be I think actually I'm going to struggle to say that it's the most one, but it is really important it's give yourself a break. Actually it's really important, phrase that I have been using on myself for a while and also say to my friends a lot too. So sorry, I'm still. I'm just feeling a little bit emotional, rob, but that's okay.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's give yourself a break. We give ourselves a hard time. We judge ourselves really harshly. Yeah, we do. And and you know, I'm more aware of that now and I hear it more and more because I've become more aware I hear it more and more in conversations with people that they're down on themselves and really giving themselves a hard time and that that is you give.
Speaker 2You give yourself a break, and whatever way I mean there's ways you can go about doing that. I've just another personal self-care thing I meditate. I've moved much more into sort of mindful practice and spending my sort of free time sort of exploring that and speaking to people about it. Um, so I get a lot of benefit from that and just being able to be present and pay attention to, to consciousness and and the present moment is such, a, such a beautiful thing to be able to, to step back to when things are tough. So, yeah, give give yourself a break. Um, you are, you have value, um, you have inherent dignity and value, and you're not always going to make the right decisions, but you just keep trying and and, um, you know, try to be better.
Speaker 1That's, that's probably it, sure and directly from the actor's studio. If there is a heaven, what would you want God to say to you when you're met at the pearly gates?
Speaker 2Oh, that's a very deep question, and also because I don't sort of have those beliefs, I guess, in terms of how that looks, and certainly have some beliefs about what happens when we're not in this particular realm anymore. But what I would want God to say let's look at it in that framework and say it's God, it's the traditional God with the big white beard and St.
Speaker 1Peter's there ticking off the list.
Speaker 2That guy. Yeah, the boss is here. The CEO has come down to see he's coming in today. He's got a special treatment. I mean, first of all, I'd be rather astonished that he turned up to see me coming in, because I'd be a bit like, surely there's other arrivals today that must be more important. But I guess what would I want him to say to me, uh, or what would I want to ask him?
Speaker 2That's, that's a really tough one, robin. That's uh. I, I guess I'd have some questions about all the suffering and stuff. How about can we just have a little word about all the suffering, um, that seems to be inherent in the world, um, but and um, that sort of stuff, but also probably not for much, because I do know why. I do know why there is suffering, but yeah, that's a really hard one. I don't think I'd have a coherent answer. I'd probably just be bloody gobsmacked to see a giant man with a white beard out there and just think, oh, I should have kept going to church, I was wrong the whole time. So yeah, it would be an absolute scene, robin. I'd make an absolute mess of it, I can tell you that much, and I probably would uh get kicked out, I'd imagine, rejected oh, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 1Luke o'connell, what can I call you? The dying person's presence as we wrap up this podcast? If you have a question you'd like to ask or other related occupation you'd like to learn about, please drop an email to ask at ladyofdeathcomau and we will look at possibly doing a podcast of the questions that you've always wanted to know but never knew or were game enough to ask. This is Robyn O'Connell, the Lady of Death, whose philosophy is organising your final farewell is not about wanting to die. It's about wanting to die. It's about wanting to reflect who you really are in your goodbye. See you next time.