The Last Wrap: Two Young Mums Greening the Funeral Industry, One Shroud at a Time

Most people never think about the environmental cost of a funeral until they have to plan one. I sat down with Tamsin and Alyssa, the founders of Heaven and Earth Eco Burial Products, to explore how shrouded burial can be safer for the planet, clearer for families, and gentler on budgets—without sacrificing dignity or ritual. 

Their story is as human as it is practical. As young mums, they built and tested products during lockdown, leaned on a mortician’s expertise, and engineered their carrier for safety. They share early missteps, why their supplies are certified vegan. The goal isn’t perfection; it’s honest, local, biodegradable design that gives families real choice. 

We also dive into what it takes to keep a purpose-driven business alive: allies in the funeral industry, months of patience after launch, and a commitment to learning. Tamsin and Alyssa open up about time pressures, storage challenges, and raising death-literate kids who can talk about grief with clarity and care.

If you’ve wondered how eco burial, shrouds, and conservation cemeteries really work, or you simply want to plan a farewell that matches your values, this conversation offers a grounded, compassionate roadmap.

If this resonated, follow the show, share it with someone planning ahead, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway. Your support helps more families discover greener, clearer end-of-life choices.

Have questions about death, dying or the funeral industry? Email ask@ladyofdeath.com.au to have them answered in a future episode.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Intros

SPEAKER_03 0:37

Welcome to the Lady of Death Podcast Season Two. My name is Robin O'Connell, otherwise known as the Lady of Death. In this series, we'll once again be looking at people who work in and around the funeral industry. In today's case, it's actually about burials or burial products. So I have two guests, Tamson and Alyssa, both young mums, who started a business called Heaven and Earth Eco Burial Products. I'm sure you will find it as fascinating as what I did as we discover what their mission is in changing the industry just to be a little bit more green. So welcome.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

Tell me about yourselves. Who do you live with, pets, etc.?

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Oh yeah, okay. I've um so I'm Tansin and I've got uh four daughters, so quite a big little gang in my house. I also have a husband, and he is very outnumbered, obviously, by the rest of us. We used to have an absolute mountain of pets, but now it's dwindled all the way down to we've only got sea monkeys. But sea monkeys. What do you mean monkeys? They're like you actually buy them at Kmart. They're just little, they look kind of like um quill. They're tiny, little tiny little fish. You can hardly even see them. Oh, but they're sort of like a bit of a gimmicky toy type of animal for children, right? Um, but we've actually had them now and kept them alive for what are we, 10, 11 months.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yeah, that's impressive.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Apparently, it's fairly impressive to have them that long.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Yeah, that's the weirdest thing, isn't it? So strange.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

Yeah, they are strange little critters.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Alyssa. Yeah, so um I live with my husband Heinz, and we have uh how many kids have we got? We've got three. So we got our eldest daughter, and then our twins are nearly two, and we got a couple of cats, which are the loves of my life, and we also uh live with my mum, which is great because she's help with all of our little ones.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Absolutely especially with twins.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Yeah, very tolerant of all of our chaos, bless her.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

I should have jumped in there and said that I've got twins too. So both of us have got a set of twins each. Yeah, gosh. Two elder daughters, and then uh my twins are six.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

So and I mean, am I allowed to say what makes it extra interesting?

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

In both cases, we weren't intending on having more kids. So I was one and done, and Tansin was happy with her two girls. And first of all, Tanson, yeah, had a surprise pregnancy, which turned out to be twins. And you think that lightning won't strike twice, but it did. And I had a surprise pregnancy, which was twins.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

That is absolutely amazing, isn't it? Yeah, I always say Lissa looks up to me so much that she just copied me, and that was a bad idea.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

I really do though. I very much look up to Tamson, but this was one thing, yeah, definitely wasn't intending following in your footsteps because I was like, I won't survive twins, but I've certainly needed a lot more help, and Tamson made it look very easy, which it isn't at all, but she makes it look easy.

SPEAKER_03 3:58

I can tell you that there's light at the end of the tunnel because I'm currently up in New South Wales and I'm staying with my niece who has twins. She's a twin herself, and she has twins, and they're now 17 and driving. So life is so much easier. Um, please explain to

What A Shroud Is And Why

SPEAKER_03 4:20

us what your company actually does.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

So we design, manufacture, and sell specifically products for shrouded burials. So we've got a few varieties of shrouds and different sizes, and a simple carrier for shrouded burial. Uh, and we also have a pillow that's a biodegradable pillow, and we sell decorative ties to go with the shrouds. Uh, so we mostly we wholesale to funeral providers, but we do also sell direct to the public as well.

SPEAKER_03 4:53

So you you mentioned shrouds. So just explain what a shroud is to people.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

So a burial shroud is basically like a big sheet that you get wrapped up in. Ours are a bit more, there's a bit more to ours than that, but essentially people were always shrouded prior to sort of the introduction of coffins, and certainly it's coming back quite strongly these days, just mainly due to the environmental aspect of it that it does entirely biodegrade, but also it is financially uh a bit better on the hip pocket as well. Yeah, pretty much it's just a big wrap, the wraps up like it's like spottling a baby, but just much larger. Ours also come with a big hood that comes over the head that you can lift off for vigils and things like that. So it is it's got a few design aspects of it that make it really easy to use and very sticky.

SPEAKER_03 5:47

The body is wrapped in the shroud. Yeah. How do you then take the body to for burial or whatever in that shroud? You mentioned something about a carrier.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Yeah. So for shrouded burial, you it is a legal requirement that you have a solid backboard that the shroud is put onto. So we sell a very simple streamlined carrier. It's very unobtrusive. It's just pine and organic cotton and some uh jute that we've got there. We've put all together in a design that works with our shroud. So essentially you tie the shroud to this carrier. The carrier's got handles, and then you can carry it that way. It's not suitable for shrouded cremation, though, which is why we do keep it separate from the shroud. Some shrouds have them already like inside them, but we keep it separate so that if you are going to have a shrouded cremation, you're not buying something you don't need or using something that's unnecessary just for that green aspect as well. But with in that case, you do need it, it's basically like a big biscuit tray. So it's like a giant flat bottom tray that you use for a shrouded cremation. We don't sell those because we just haven't been able to be competitive in the market with those. The big funeral companies are able to sell them extremely cheaply. And because we make ours all all our all our goods are really locally made, made from all very sustainable products. So it does mean that our carriers were going to be just a bit too expensive, we felt. But they're all over the place. You can get them pretty much anywhere.

SPEAKER_03 7:19

So right, okay. So share with us how people reacted to you when you told them that you wanted to start this sort of business. It's not like you were funeral directors who kind of like went, Oh, here's a bit of a niche market, let's have a look at it.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yeah, so look, it was a left-of-field decision from us. Like we had no previous desire to start a business, like that wasn't we weren't looking for a business to start, the business found us. And it purely came because we were so surprised to find out the reality of the environmental impact of conventional cremation and burials, and so that really inspired us to start the business, and we were really passionate about it and really excited about it. And I think most people really took it in their stride. I mean, particularly me, I'm I've always had kind of niche, odd interests. So I don't think anyone was too surprised by me being interested in this. And then Tamson's always had such a strong focus on the environment that it it made sense for us uh that this business just clicked, it just it found us, it felt right. So I think for the most part, people were really interested, like they didn't know either, so they were just fascinated that we were doing this. Um, and our poor mum was fairly horrified. Um she did not love the idea, and um, her classic line was, Can't you just open a cafe? It was funny because yeah, she was so uncomfortable with it to begin with, but you know, she's become one of our biggest supporters. She talks to her friends about it, she's helped us with all of our photography because she's an amazing photographer. Yeah, and so she's really come around and seen the value in the business and and supported us. You know, from the start, she has she got behind us and supported us, even though it was very much out of her comfort zone. But as I said, we weren't looking to start any old business, we just started this business because we were so passionate about making it happen. And I think we still sometimes pinch ourselves that we actually did. Like it almost sounds like one of those things that you you talk about and then it never happens, but we just kept going and and it's it's been yeah, pretty amazing, really. Like we're

The Carrier, Cremation, And Design

SPEAKER_00 9:40

we're pretty proud of our business. Hey.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Yeah, we really are. And I think it was like quite a conspicuous time to start as well because we opened our business in April 2020. So just as everything is locking down, we're like rising out of that. So uh it meant it made product development was interesting. Trying to trying to get places and get things, and it was all quite difficult. But it was a real such a learning curve, I think, for both of us. Um we just really loved learning it all and meeting the people and and learning more and and being able to really, you know, direct our business in such a positive way, I guess. Not a great subject, but to have something so beautiful to come out of it, I think that was really lovely.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, we also had our kids along for the ride. And at the time, Tanson's twins were babies when we started this. And my eldest was what was she like a year and a half or something. So she was still quite little. So we had the and then Tanson's two bigger girls. So we had a heap of kids into and uh, yeah, just going on this really big learning curve. But you know, we had lots of friends who got behind us and let us shroud them to like test us because we we did heaps and heaps of product testing during the development stage, which included shrouding like a good number of our friends and family.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Everyone was very long for the afternoon. I just want to shroud you. Literally that I didn't like I'd have people and someone be like, Oh, well, stop in for a coffee. I'm like, Yeah, that's great. Can I shroud you while you're there?

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Oh gosh. And we had remember when we were at Erica and Madge's house and we had like they had like funeral music playing, or it was some sort of do you remember that?

SPEAKER_02 11:20

I think we just went there and just we we went over for afternoon tea or something and shrouded both the parents and the the child was underwhelmed.

SPEAKER_03 11:29

You know, I mean, I'm just trying to imagine with someone with no industry experience. Like, where where did you start? How did you actually start?

SPEAKER_02 11:41

That is definitely Losa question because she's the one who found it. She just brought me along for the ride.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

But how we actually started the business. Yeah, so I mean, I I found out about it all from watching your Caitlin Doty video on Green Burial, as I think a lot of people have. I think yeah, Caitlin Dodie has obviously educated a lot of people, and yeah, I was I was pretty uh taken aback by that because I'd never thought about the ecological impacts. And so from there, really it just started off with some brainstorming. We went and we met with our accountant who helped us get set up as a partnership, and then we just started finding contacts. So we spoke because you know, like through what is it, mum's landscaper's wife, yeah, who initially helped connect us to various people in the funeral industry, and we just started having lots and lots of meetings, like meetings with people, funeral directors, morticians, people just business acumen, because we had no experience in business at all, and listening to a lot of podcasts, just doing a lot of research. Like I've got, you know, masses of research that I because I work for a university and I I mean I was studying at the time as well. So I had access to the university libraries and just downloaded tons and tons and tons of research material and did a big research document looking at everything that's available and all the different aspects of the funeral industry, essentially. And then we worked quite closely with that mortician, the mortician who we met in terms of actually developing the product and getting her recommendations. Oh, we death jewelers, beautiful death. So we really came to it, we came to it from a point of learning, you know, knowing that we were green, um, you know, green as an inexperience starting off, and just really seeking seeking advice from people within the industry and making sure that our products met their approval. And the design, so Tamson designed the shroud, I designed the carrier, and we also had a friend who was our initial manufacturer until she went back to work, and she was fantastic helping us make by making prototypes, and she's she was really quite amazing that she could, you know, take our ideas and bring them to life because neither Tamson and I can sew. So, yeah, she did heaps of grinding.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

Fascinating here people who know nothing about the industry, who can't sew, who decide to make this. It's an amazing story, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:05

I know nothing about business, yeah, absolutely nothing about business, and we were so clueless. Like I look back now on some of our early decisions and go, oh my god, you guys have no idea. And no tech savvy either. We've had no end of website woes, which I think we've sort of just we've figured that out now.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

Yeah, I think we just sort of accepted them. We're we're just messing with it now.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

It's just yeah, we just moved out. We are but we've had a lovely uh web designer as well who's helped us and try and navigate a very tricky sort of model where you where you're wholesaling, so it's not as simple as just putting something in a cart and buying it. But yeah, so just a we had a really long period of consultation and product development until we were really happy with our products, and we also had to get them engineer tested. So the carrier we had to go and get professionally independently engineer tested to carry up to 150 kilograms, and so we got all that certified, and then we were like, okay, we're finally ready to launch. And um yeah, which was you know kind of underwhelming as well by the time we actually launched.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Like, I don't know what we were expecting, but yeah, I feel like we were really expecting that once we went like launch, we would sell heaps of things, but of course, we didn't sell anything for months. Yeah, we're like, oh no, what are we doing? We were like, you know, we'd stocked up. We we had stock in the we got a lovely partnership

Starting A Green Burial Business

SPEAKER_02 15:30

with a local distributor, yes, and they were like storing all our stuff, and we're just and nothing happened, and we're like, Oh goodness, are we just gonna not go anywhere? And we're gonna have all this shrouds. You're gonna have like 50 shrouds or just like to wrap our families and friends in or something. Like, what are we gonna do with all this stuff? And at that time as well, we also had a funny story that when we first started, we thought we'd have a whole range of green burial products because we always think of green burials as a spectrum. So, you know, you've got like our shrouds right as green as we possibly can, as we let's say as dark green as we've possibly been able to get it, and then everything back from that. It's all a big, a big spectrum of green. And we thought we'd just supply lots of different options, and so we actually brought a giant pile of carbour coffins, and it was a tiny nightmare getting them imported, like right to the point like we had to pay so many extra taxes and fees and stuff that we didn't know about. And when they got here, they're like, Where's your forklift? And I'm like, I don't have a forklift, it's my house. Um, you know, like just so we had to take them all off one by one, and it's just an absolute nightmare. But funnily enough, before they even arrived, we decided we weren't going to sell them because they weren't green enough. Right. So we we had all this nightmare with these cardboard coffins that we thought were pretty good and decided afterwards that no, they're not. And so we just had a massive stack of coffins in this room, took up half the room nearly to the ceiling, and it sat there for what a year or so before we were in the field. I think at least a year. Yeah. Before we finally, there was a funeral home that just took them all away for us. We're like, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Yeah, we're like, that was a very we we had a lot of very expensive mistakes that we made in the early days. Um we we learned the hard way with a lot of things, didn't we? But I mean, worse for you because yeah, you had a giant expensive climbing frame for your twins in your office. The twins loved it. They used to draw on it as well. Yeah. But don't draw on the coffins. I do feel like we've found our groove now, though. Like, you know, we do have other products that we'd like to introduce at some point, but for now we've sort of found a selection of products that are, you know, they they go together nicely. And it is kind of cohesive, you know, just to stick to the shrouded aerial rather than doing what we initially thought, which was like, oh, we're gonna have cardboard and wicker and wood and lots of yeah, we just have have stuck to a theme, which has worked well, I think, in the end. But it took us quite a quite a bit of time to sort of come to that vision, yeah for that vision to become clear, because yeah, initially it was it was a lot bigger and more unwieldy. Hey.

SPEAKER_03 18:18

I think I think a lot of people are you know under the impression that a cardboard coffin is very green, and then when you sit down and explain to them about it and all that sort of stuff, they go, oh no, don't worry about it then. Yeah, so it's very interesting kind of area, the whole green eco type of discussion with people. So I always ask people what is their why? What is it about this that gives you your purpose of doing it?

SPEAKER_02 18:50

For me, at least, and I'm pretty sure I can speak for Alyssa here too, but do jump in if I'm wrong, Alyssa. But for both me and Alyssa, we were really quite clueless on the environmental impacts of any kind of burial or like we just never even thought about it. But we have both been so passionate about the environment our whole lives. Like that's how we were raised. We've been raised to really consider the environment and to be aware of what we're doing and and putting back. So to find out that when we died, whatever we chose was going to be really detrimental, that was a big shock for both of us. And I think that we found that if that was something we didn't know, then other people probably don't know either. And it became really important for us just to make sure people know. If they know they can do what they want with it, and we don't mind if they want to have a giant crypt and you know get cremated four times, that's totally up to them. Like, but if they know what their options are and what the impacts are and everything, and they've made their decision, then you can actually make that decision with some sort of education and with like understanding, I guess. So for me, the why is really just to make sure people know that there's options, that there's options and there's green options, and there's not green options, and there's said there's that guy who got buried in a cream donut coffin in a coffin in the shape of a cream donut, you know. So if you you can have anything you want, just you just need to know you can have it essentially. And we do a lot of community outreach and education, so a lot of free presentations and things like that, and go to markets and stuff, just to just talk to people and bring the conversation up and you know, just like I really, you know, we're just very passionate about people knowing that they have choice.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

So when you go to markets and things like that, what is the reaction of people when here you are at a market and all of a sudden they come to this shroud uh stand? What are the reactions that you get from that? Oh, we get so many, don't we, Alyssa?

SPEAKER_02 20:56

Yeah, it's I would say the majority of them are pretty positive. We have gotten quite good at really like picking our markets. We go to a lot of like sustainability markets and things like that, where we're really, you know, like people are very interested in that kind of like-minded people. Exactly. We did go to a local, like a local manufacturer's market. Uh, you had to be from the suburb and have a business to be able to get in there. I'm like, we're from the suburb, we have a business. And we went, and so many people like, why are you here? You know, it's like next to someone selling like knitted dollies and someone with like an egg stand, you know, like it didn't just us with our shrouded cushion and talking about death.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

So we definitely learnt to pick our audience, hey. Yeah, we really have sustainability markets, you know, that's really the area where people are like us and are amazed to learn about this and yeah, their options. And for the most part, I reckon our interactions have been really positive. Yeah, get the odd people who are not happy to see any reminder of mortality whatsoever. It was really yeah, like I mean, we've had a handful, like you know, and we've done stacks of markets like for hours and hours and hours, and so it's it's really rare. Mostly we have these really like productive and interesting conversations with people, and you learn a lot from talking to them as well, because everyone comes to it with their own experiences. We have at times had our bingo sheet because we know we're gonna we're gonna hear the same things or get asked about the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 22:28

Oh, right. Yeah, we went to what was it, the um mind body spirit festival with uh another couple of businesses, and we did the bingo sheets, and that was so much fun.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Yeah, because that was that was a really hard one for us, actually. Like it was great to be there with the people who we shared a store with with were fantastic, and that was really great. But it was all in the city

Early Missteps And Finding Focus

SPEAKER_00 22:50

and indoors for like three days, and just it was just dysphobic in there.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

I had tonsillitis for the whole time, so I was really quite sick.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

It was hard yakka getting through that because it you know it's just crammed full of people, you know. We we did hear some funny stories from them as well. Like, who's the one who's like, Oh, I'm gonna get reincarnated 74 times or something?

SPEAKER_02 23:11

She had already been reincarnated. Oh, okay, yeah. Yeah, she was like, I'm seven, like she was like 670 years old or something, and like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Yeah, but yeah, it's it's very interesting, like that there is a a kind of general theme that people talk about when it comes to death, like a lot of the time, they're very flippant about it, like and about their plans, like saying, you know, oh, I just told my kids to put me on the bonfire. That's it. And you're like, Oh, well, look, I'm glad that you're having these conversations with your family, but that's illegal, and they'll go to jail. So maybe have a think about some legal options too. Yeah, and to be fair, well, you know, mum's always said that too. Mum's always like, just ping me into the bush. We're like, that's not an option.

SPEAKER_03 23:57

I did an expo not very long ago. Uh it was um, it was the care expo, that's right. And I literally I had somebody walk past my store. So I had up my last farewell, which is my company, I had up the Rebecca Jane Foundation, which is my charity, and then I had the Lady of Death podcast banner up, right? And they walked past, and the two of them just stopped and looked and went, ooh, and uh they said, Oh, who'd be the Lady of Death? And I said, I am like, That's me, and they went, ooh, why would you have that here and walked off, you know? And I'm just like going, oh dear, you just meet all sorts, don't you? Yeah, absolutely. I think there's kind of three bodies of people. There's those that are comfortable talking about it, there's those that are the flippant ones, oh, you know, stick me in a box and chuck me in the backyard and do all that sort of stuff, or there's the people who are really interested, you know, that really uh want to be, want to know, you know, because I mean, I don't know about you, but I'm an absolute control freak. And the thought of somebody else organizing my funeral does my head in, really, you know. I've been a funeral celebrant 23 years, like I know what I want. Yeah. So, you know, there's there's those that just don't even want to know about it, that they just don't want to know about it. And then there's the ones that just make a joke of it, and then there's ones who are genuine, genuinely interested, and and and I think that's a real shame because we we're not like that with birth. We don't have the ones that go, ooh, I don't want to touch birth. Yeah, birth isn't creepy, or you know, having a baby's nothing at all, you know.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

That's usually a male thing, though. No offense to the males who are listening. Uh, but you know, that's more a male thing.

SPEAKER_03 26:05

But the people who are genuinely interested are the ones who have either, you know, wanting to have children or have children. So, you know, so you've still got those three kind of areas in in both of them. So, okay, so let's get back to what we're talking about. On your website, you say you are a vegan burial product company. Explain to us what that actually means.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Yeah, so um, yeah, we actually we love this because as far as we can tell, we are the only vegan funeral supplies company in the world. Certified. So as far as we can tell, like unless it's yeah, we're just not finding something in a different language.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

We we always say if if you know of one, let us know because we can Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

But so Tam and I are both vegans. You know, there's usually the three main reasons why people are vegans, and they are health, planet, and animals. Um, very much for me, it's animals and planet. I'd I think I'd probably be the same for you, Tam, although health has benefited. Health is a benefit it's a bonus, yeah. Yeah, it's just a bonus. So we're really passionate about that. We've always been vegetarian since we were little kids. Our mum's also vegetarian, uh, and veganism just came on later. Same with our big sisters. So it's just it's a big part of our life. So when we started the company, we knew that you know, we weren't gonna be supplying any products that had any sort of um yeah, animal component. Uh, and in the green burial movement, you know, there is quite a bit of that. Like wool is considered one, which is baffling to us because the sheep industry is shocking environmentally, and so you know, definitely we don't want wool, we don't want leather, and no silk, because silk, of course, silk is a biodegradable fabric as well, but of course, we don't we don't want to include that in our offerings, and the other thing is just in terms of like polishes, like beeswax or shellac or anything like that that comes from an animal, and so I think for us, it's probably something that just I don't know, Tanton, you might want to add it add into this, but there's people who are in the vegan community who really value having options that they know come from a vegan company, like people who share the same ethos, and to know that you know, we've tried to uh the utmost extent to make our products ethical, so ethical to people as well, in terms of how they're sourced and sustainable and not exploitative of animals. And also the fact that promoting green burials in itself benefits animals because what we're hoping for is to get more and more green burials and conservation burial grounds, which are then going to be habitat for

Why Vegan Funeral Products

SPEAKER_00 28:50

native flora and fauna. So yeah, so I think it does mean it means something to people within the vegan community, and it's just for us, it's part of our sustainability credentials as well, because the use of animal products is so damaging to the environment.

SPEAKER_02 29:03

And that's probably the only thing I'd add is that really like it's nice for the vegan community to have these options, but essentially the vegan ethos is making everything so sustainable, so it's really benefits anyone who's got like an affinity with the environment and wants to be sustainable. You know, if you're gonna go to a vegan company, you're gonna get something sustainable.

SPEAKER_03 29:24

I wanted to talk about your both being young mums of young children and and how you work that in. Because I know the first time we met, we met at a play cafe, which was absolutely fantastic. But tell me how that all works for you because you've got a business, but you've also got families. So, how do you work that in for other young mums who are out there?

SPEAKER_02 29:55

We've certainly found it to be uh not easy, I would say. But in the same breath, we really did right from the beginning work it into our business like analogy, like that's part of our business, is that we're young we're we're mums and that we got young kids. And we wherever possible we try and employ people, manufacturers and associates, who are also mums, like often working from home with their kids in tow as well. Which not only have we we thought that that was important just to support, you know, working mothers, but also it has meant that it's made life a lot easier for us because most of our business meetings are conducted with children around. So, you know, we'll often be like we have a lot of business meetings at that particular child-friendly cafe. We've they are actually amazing as well. They they let us like roll our shrouds out on the tables and you know, all kinds of different we've had a death cafe there before as well. Like, you know, we've we've brought death into their cafe many times and they've been but yeah, I think for for really just making sure that we can support other mothers as much as we can and it helps them, it helps us. We think it's nice community sort of because we try and keep it local as well, so nice community type of ethos to our business.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

Yeah, definitely. And I think it's yeah, I'd agree with you on on everything, and just add that I think it's I think it's positive for our kids to see uh us doing this, and that you know, we've built something out of nothing. We've made a heck of a lot of mistakes in the early days, and you know, that we've been able to to to learn and to grow and to create something that we're really proud of, and I think that's yeah, beneficial to our kids. Also, just how death-literate our children are, like well, the ones that can speak. Yeah, you should tell your story, Tam.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

Yeah, well, Robin, you know, you were kind enough to give your one of your books to my kids. My one of my twins read the whole thing um from cover to cover and was so intrigued by it all. We just recently our elder sister lost her beautiful greyhound, who was that particular so that's my daughter, River. She considered Rory to be her best friend. So when he passed away, she was really sad. And then just just after that, she read your book and she's like, Can we have a celebration of Rory's life? So we ended up inviting my older sister over and her family over. We had like a whole ceremony, and you know, you had like a little celebration of Rory's life. Just it was really beautiful. I had had photos of him and candles and flowers, and yeah, it was really nice. Oh wow, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 32:41

That's amazing. I must must remember that one. So most people who listen to this podcast wouldn't realize that I wrote a book called What Happens When You Die, A Child's Questions Answered. And it was published in 2004. And believe it or not, in 2025, it's still in bookshops. So uh when you consider that most books have a life shelf of about three months, uh, 20 odd years later, I'm pretty impressed that it's still available. But it's it's not the sort of book. My dream was when I wrote it, my dream was that everybody would buy it and and read it to their child before someone dies, right? So so they're learning about death before they actually know someone who dies. But what we do as a society is we wait until someone dies and then teach our children about death. Yeah, because we have to, but at the same time, they're trying to deal with some pretty big emotions that are going on, but they're also trying to realize that we have to have a viewing and a funeral and all that sort of stuff. So, and I just in one of the previous podcasts that uh people may have listened to, my book actually came up in conversations. So uh this young man I had explained to him that his dad was going to die, and I gave him my book and we read it. Now that was six years ago, and I uh he said to me, Oh, you know, because I I asked him, does he remember about being told that his dad might die? And he said, No, I don't think anyone really told me. And it was a great realization for me because I had sweated for days, because I was the one who told him, right? And I had sweated for days, and he couldn't remember that anyone had told him. So, you know, here am I

Markets, Community Education, Reactions

SPEAKER_03 34:30

thinking this is such a big deal, it's gonna, you know, affect his life forever. And he just accepted it, whatever I said at that time. But and he said, Oh no, hang on. When I said that, he said, Oh no, hang on, you you gave me a book, and and it was a book about there was a boy and his dog died because the dog was very dominant in the whole book, right? So, what he remembered six years later was the boy and the dog, not the fact that the 28-year-old uncle had died, you know. So it was fascinating to see, and here am I doing the big sweat stuff that he's never gonna forgive me for giving him the bad news, and he didn't even remember that I was the one that did it. So if children could just learn about death in a natural way instead of having to find out about it when their heart is broken because their favorite nana has just died, and suddenly they have to find out what a funeral is and all the rest of it. And probably one of the most common questions I get asked as a celebrant is that should children go to funerals? Yeah. I go, of course they should. If they were part of that person's life, then they should be there. If they're under three, then they might not be able to sit and listen to a story. But over three, they're so kind of wide-eyed about everything that's going on. Rarely do you even hear a peep out of them. And even when they do, I remember one where the six grandkids were all up the front and they were making a noise and everything. And and I just turn around and I said, I don't remember the lady's name, but wouldn't she have loved this? Seeing all her grandchildren there while we celebrate her life, and everybody's attitude towards that changed. Whereas, you know, a lot of people were sitting there going, oh no, those children should be sitting still and not making a noise and all that sort of stuff. And I I just I could see the uncomfortable stuff as a celebrant, you have to read the room, and I could see everybody kind of getting a bit antsy about these children who were making a bit of noise. They could still hear me perfectly fine. And that's when I made that comment. And the whole environment changed because children are children, and we don't need to shield them from death, and it's a part of life, and children aren't actually afraid of death because they don't see the permanency and they don't see the sadness that we feel. You know, it's just a word to them: dead, dying, death. They're just words because they don't associate it. We immediately associate it with pain and sorrow and all that sort of stuff. So children will go in and out of grief. One minute they'll be sitting there bawling their eyes out, and five minutes later they'll be saying, Can we go to McDonald's for an ice cream? We need to make that a much more natural thing. And I think it's the same with business, right? We just need to include them. If they're part of our life, then they're part of our business, really. So, you know, I think what you didn't, you know, meeting a cafe, you know, if people can't do that, well, they're not really that interested in what you're doing. So tell me what the industry has been like with you. How receptive have they been overall?

SPEAKER_00 37:55

Look, I'd say that that on the whole, uh, people have been wonderful in general, really good. And then we've had on one extreme people who have gone the extra mile for us and been absolute mentors and friends and really helped us immensely. And then on the other end, we've had a couple of people who just aren't interested because it's just not what they offer.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Um, discouraged us greatly.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Yeah, or or discouraged us. But I feel like for the the majority that we've had a pretty good experience. I would yeah, and you know, we have been really blessed with allies who who introduced themselves to us, basically came out of nowhere, and have really, you know, been a fantastic support and help to us.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

We have had for the main part been really blessed with the people who have helped us, and they've just offered a lot of time and you know their wisdom and really helped further our business, which has been wonderful. Yeah, so I'd say all in all, we've had a really positive experience.

SPEAKER_03 38:54

I think I think it's often when you're doing something new, like Last Farewell is a new concept of people organizing their funerals before they die and stuff like that. And whenever you introduce anything new, people are kind of like, oh, you know, and like what you talked about with the some people who would have actively discouraged you. I had that when I began as a celebrant, and I had a celebrant tell me that there was no point, no one would ever use me, that this arranger will go, and then you stop getting work and and you'll never make a living out of it, and all that sort of stuff. And I went, you know what? I'm gonna prove you wrong. Wow, that's so good. And I think that in a way, those people who try to discourage us actually do us a bit of a favor because we actually then go, Well, we're gonna show you. We're gonna show you that there is a niche in this market.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

And I would say we were kind of similar with that, I think, because we did definitely go uh like particularly at one point, we were so discouraged. It was actually what we planned to have our our website and do our launch in like July, and it actually we got so discouraged it didn't happen. Alyssa actually had us t-shirts made that said nevertheless, she persisted. Nevertheless, that's right. Nevertheless, she persisted, and we really did, and that it was great. We we put on our matching t-shirts with broccolies on them, and we just got on with business. And I'm so pleased we did because obviously it's become a success for us, and it's been so really important to both of us now. Like we're I think we're very passionate about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:31

So, what do you think the biggest challenge that you face in your business? That's a great question.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

I could answer for my sake.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

Go on, you take. Because I'd have to think about that.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Time.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Time, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

You know, because this is something that I wish that we could, or with me specifically, I wish that I could dedicate a heap more time to it. Like I would love to be involved in the lobbying side of it more. Like we we did a bit of that previous years.

Parenting, Work, And Death Literacy

SPEAKER_00 41:00

Where we were part in more of the lobbying side of things, and that's something I would really like to do. I would like to be involved in getting conservation burial grounds happening in Victoria and changing some of the dodgy laws and you know, just spending more time developing products and promoting the business. And I'd love to have more scope for that. And as it is, I feel like being stretched very thin with life because I I do have a paid job as well, and I I run an organization, so it's just plus the kids, and it it feels like there's just not enough time to do it the justice that I would like to do to it. It's more just keeping it, keeping it ticking along, and we we still do our talks and stuff as often as we can and markets and things. But yeah, for me, that's the thing that I find most challenging about business is yeah, just not having as much scope to to commit to it as I'd like to. And I I just thought of mine.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

Mine is storage because it's a very small house. My house is about 10 squares, and we've got six people living in it, and just I reckon so much of it's just taken up with shrouds and shroud like fluff for the cushions, and we've got these massive rolls of terry toweling that we use for our shroud mats and things like that, and it's all just you know, leaning up against it.

SPEAKER_03 42:15

Compact, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Nothing's tiny and compact, they're all large things, massive. So you know what? This reminds me that when we were talking about what is a shroud, we didn't include the fact that our shrouds have liners as well, absorbent liners.

SPEAKER_02 42:28

Um yeah, we've got an absorbent liner on the inside of the shroud that's made out of two layers of terry toweling, and it's also got a uh it's called like an eco-plastic, which actually biodegrates. So we've got that in there too. So we should have said that. But at the moment, we that uh the company that sells the terry toweling sold and like closed the business. Oh no. So I was like, we're gonna have to buy all the stock you have. So anything you've got, send it to me. And they said two massive rolls of fabric, like they weigh a ton, and they're just it's just moving from one room to the next room to the next. I just got nowhere to put these massive rolls.

SPEAKER_03 43:14

It's scary, isn't it, when you've got all this product that you've got to keep somewhere. I find the same thing with the foundation. I've actually got uh I've made some room in my garage now where I can put because you've got all your display flyers and you've got your things to put things in, and you've got all these things and everything, and it just takes up more and more and more space. And I'm like, okay, I need to delegate a place for this, otherwise, it was starting to take over the house.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

So we hear ya.

SPEAKER_03 43:47

Okay. Is there anything else that you'd like to add before we go on to our questions that I'm gonna ask you?

SPEAKER_02 43:56

I didn't think so. You got some great questions.

SPEAKER_03 43:58

I think we've done everything. Cool. Okay. To wrap up our sessions, as a big fan of the actors studio, I'm going to take a leaf from their book and ask a series of questions to each of our guests. So I'll start with you, Tansin. What is your favorite word and why?

SPEAKER_02 44:17

Oh, I love the word conglomerate. I think I just realized the way it comes off rolls off the tongue and chimmy chunga. They sound nice. I like the way that they work. They're probably my but my very favorite word is conglomerate.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

I never would have picked that.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Definitely not.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Listen, mine's discombobulated. One, because this is an awesome word, and also because I think it it fits my general disposition as well. I'm generally fairly discombobulated. Right. It's all part of you and who you are.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

What is the thing that you are most grateful for in your life?

SPEAKER_00 45:00

Oh, so is this starting with me? Yes. Gosh, I wish I had um thought of that. I feel grateful for so much. I think probably ultimately. So I I'm a history nerd, so I'm very grateful for things like antibiotics and painkillers. And just the generally living in a safe and free country with my beautiful family and friends and cats. Very grateful for cats. My wonderful husband who puts up with my discombobulation, these sorts of things. Many, so many things to be grateful for, I think. Times and oh, and kangaroos. Sorry, I'm very grateful for kangaroos. Kangaroos, my favorite animals, they make my life better. That's all.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

I actually, when we go to a lot of meetings, uh, if it's ever somewhere sort of regional, I have to say to Alyssa, this is like 95% death meeting. You can have 5% kangaroo. No like kangaroo conversations.

SPEAKER_00 45:59

Surely love kangaroos, what can I say?

SPEAKER_02 46:01

I would say similar with Lissa, that I'm very grateful for lots and lots of things. I'm obviously I'm very grateful for my family, particularly my my little girl gang, because I didn't know I was gonna have half of them and they're all really great. So yeah, and my husband's he's an amazing man. Um for some ungodly reason, he's outside with a ladder in a thunderstorm. But anyways, there'll be a reason he's there. And I'd say the other thing I'm very grateful for is trees. I'm extremely grateful for trees because without trees, we would have no oxygen and I don't think we give them quite as much credit as they deserve.

SPEAKER_03 46:38

So and also the like kangaroos wouldn't have anywhere to rest in their shade. Exactly. Exactly. We'd all be a lot hotter, we'd all be a lot more like burnt and windy.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

Very glad that we're around to take care of us.

SPEAKER_03 46:51

If you could work in any other role rather than what you do now, what would it be? If you could have become anything, what would it have been? Bookshop owner.

SPEAKER_02 47:04

I'd be I'd be Burned Black of Australia. Wow. I love books, I love reading. I would just love to be spend my whole life in a small dark shop covered in books. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

Oh, am I allowed to have like three? I'll say them really quickly. I'd like to be an archaeology of the archaeologist of the early medieval period. I would like to work in repatriation of indigenous remains. I would like to study kangaroo behavior.

SPEAKER_03 47:36

Wow. That's interesting. Uh what is the sound that you love the most?

SPEAKER_00 47:42

So I wish I only I'm sorry, I always seem to have more than one answer. But definitely when my kids when my kids are playing together and they're they're laughing and playing, and magpies and curls.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

Timson. I would like to say silence.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

Oh, I love

Industry Support, Setbacks, Persistence

SPEAKER_01 48:00

to say silence.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Oh yes, it's my favorite sound. I love the sound of silence. I think I don't think I hear it very often.

SPEAKER_03 48:14

Such a good answer. If you could have dinner with one person living or dead, who would it be? Oh, that's me first.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

Oh, I wish I had more time to think about it. Maybe, maybe Emiline Pankhurst. That could be good. Oh no, probably actually no, it's probably gonna be Bob Brown, right? Oh yeah, Bob. I'd love to see Brown. He's I just think he's the most amazing man, and I think he's the type of person I could talk to for a good solid 24 hours without stopping. Him or Dolly Parton, maybe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

Quite a contrast. I do love Dolly Parton. But she could not have an ecological burial ride. No, well, probably not. No.

SPEAKER_02 49:00

Alyssa. Alyssa's got a great, a great little joke that she says about like hip joints and stuff, like bymic hip joints being dug up by future archaeologists.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

It's quite funny.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

Oh, oh again, I can't think of just one. But I something I would like to add for this is that I actually am in a very fortunate position where I've gotten to sit down many times with someone who is my complete nutter hero, which is Laurie Levy, a veteran wildlife activist in his 80s, who I'm very I'm always very proud to say that he's my friend and that I get to learn from him. But in terms of people who are dead, Jane Goodall, definitely, and Roger Caseman, because he had such an interesting life.

SPEAKER_03 49:40

What do you think the most important lesson is that you have learnt in your life so far?

SPEAKER_00 49:46

Oh golly, that's a really That's a heavy one. Yeah, that is, and I don't know that I'm gonna be able to do it justice. I think just being acknowledging what I don't know and always being willing to be surprised. So, you know, sometimes I go into learning about something thinking I know what the answer will be, and then it's not the answer, and being open to that and being willing to to be wrong and to learn. Yeah, I think I'd probably say that. That's a great answer.

SPEAKER_02 50:22

I want to say ditto, but I think uh like just to add to it though, it's um something I think possibly that mine would have to be is that only very recently, in like a couple like the most recent couple of years, I've discovered that being an introvert is not a negative thing. I've always thought that there was a bad thing, and I had to pretend that I was an extrovert. Yeah, and that only like yeah, being introverted is frowned upon and no one's you know, you know, you shouldn't be, you know, but I am an introvert and I I I like being an introvert and I just like staying at home with my books and and that's just how I am. But I and that that's okay. I can just do that and that's fine. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 51:04

Okay, and directly from the actors studio. If there is a heaven, what would you want God to say to you when he met you at the pearly gates?

SPEAKER_00 51:17

I know this one so well. Oh, can Alyssa answer first then? Is she allowed? Yeah, absolutely. See, I know, but there's not really any way of saying it without me sounding absolutely bananas, but I am pretty bananas, so we may as well just lean into that. Um so essentially I've always had a sense of like like an inner karma thing where I'm like always worried about the harm that I cause versus the good that I do. And so I try and do lots of good things to make up for all the times I've inadvertently squashed ants and things like that. And so when I get there, I would like the God to say, uh on balance, you've done more good than harm. That would be my ultimate.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

I love it. I love it. That's cool.

SPEAKER_02 52:03

You're too sweet and nice. I think all I've come up with is what I'd like God to say is the bars that way.

SPEAKER_00 52:11

You're gonna say God would say, Congratulations, your children have good manners. Yay!

SPEAKER_02 52:16

Yes, that would be great. Actually, because that's what I want on my that's what I want on my gravestone. Here loves Tams and her children have nice manners.

SPEAKER_00 52:23

And mine is here lies Alyssa, her children have cleanish faces.

SPEAKER_03 52:29

And mine, I hope, will say she made a difference. Oh, that's my hope of mine. I have no doubt of that at all, given all the work that you do. Thank you. Thanks so much for your time, Tenzin and Alyssa, as we wrap up this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

Oh, it's been good fun. Thank you so much, Robert.

SPEAKER_03 52:50

It's been great fun, and thank you so much for having us on. You're welcome. If you have a question you'd like to ask or another topic about death that you'd like to learn about, please drop an email to ask at ladyofdeath.com.au and we'll look at possibly doing a podcast of the questions that you've always wanted to know, but never knew where to go to or were game enough to ask. This is Robin O'Connell, the Lady of Death, whose philosophy is for everyone to embrace life fully yet be prepared for its natural end, ensuring when that time comes, it's not just an ending, but a true and authentic representation of the unique life you lived. Thanks, talk to

Biggest Challenges: Time And Storage

SPEAKER_03 53:30

you next time.