The Cafe Where Death Is Welcome

Death stops us; conversation moves us. We sat with Irene Montefiore, a founding member of the Albany Death Cafe, to explore how a simple table, a pot of tea, and the courage to speak out loud can turn fear into clarity and isolation into connection. 

We walk through what a Death Cafe truly is: a confidential, not‑for‑profit space where ordinary people share stories, questions, and practical knowledge about dying, grief, funerals, and the choices that come before and after a last breath. 

If you’re curious about the logistics, we get practical: how to start your own Death Cafe, why venue privacy matters, using Dying to Talk cards, and how to promote without hype. 

By the end, you’ll see how naming death out loud expands life: fewer taboos, better planning, kinder support, and room for both tears and laughter. If you value honest conversation and want your final farewell to reflect who you really are, this one’s for you. Subscribe, share with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help more people find thoughtful, stigma‑free talk about death—and about living well until the end.

If you want more information about Albany Death Cafe, please go to their Facebook page and you can contact Irene through that.

Have questions about death, dying or the funeral industry? Email ask@ladyofdeath.com.au to have them answered in a future episode.

Transcript

Robyn 0:38

Welcome to the Lady of Death podcast, where we try to demystify the areas of death, dying, and the funeral industry. Thanks for joining us. My name is Robyn O'Connell, also known as the Lady of Death. Today my guest is Irene Montefiore, who is joining us from Albany in Western Australia to talk about Death Cafes. Irene is a founding member of the Albany Death Cafe that has been successfully running for the last 12 years. So welcome, Irene.

Irene 1:07

Thanks, Robyn

Robyn 1:09

Tell us about yourself, family, pets.

Irene 1:12

Well, I was a for quite some time I was a broadcaster and manager with the ABC, but I've been retired now for I don't know, 12 or 13, or probably more like 15 years, who knows. And so now I seem to spend most of my time talking about death, whether it's through Death Cafe or doing advanced care planning workshops and so on, or just as a volunteer. And in between times do a bit of gardening, got a dog that takes a lot of attention, got a husband who takes a certain amount, and got a couple of kids who are grown and some gorgeous granddaughters. So yeah, life's good. Life's good.

Robyn 1:48

Great. So before I get you to share with us uh about your journey with Death Cafes, I always ask people what is their why. Why did you become involved in a death cafe?

Facing Death After A Parent’s Passing

Irene 1:59

To be honest, because I didn't like talking about death, which sounds crazy, but I was I was brought up in the northeast of England, and up there we were a superstitious bunch, and their thought was, you know, it's one of these things that we know the absolute opposite is true now, but we used to think that if you you could tempt fate by talking about death, you know, mention the name and he'll come and get you. So I avoided talking about it, but I also avoided anything to do with it. Silent Witness used to be a really popular program, but I wouldn't watch it because there were too many, too many aspects of death, and so I couldn't possibly watch that. (R: Wow). And then my mum died. And suddenly I was having to face the fact of death. I had to be, I was with her in the time leading up to and at the time of her death, and had to make some decisions on her behalf. I had I as the oldest in the family, it was always sort of my responsibility to kind of guide or comfort my younger siblings, even though they were well and truly adults at that stage, and uh and and also be involved obviously in planning the funeral and so on. So it was it was a shock, but it just taught me that it's useful to have some background information, that if you can't avoid death, either your own or anyone else's really, by refusing to talk about it. So I felt my way fairly gently at first, um, got involved with uh a couple of other people here who were keen to get a natural earth burial cemetery started, and then from that I heard about Death Cafe, and uh in conjunction with another person, a friend of mine, who's uh had long term been a palliative care nurse and then subsequently a funeral and marriage celebrant, and I said, I'd love to start a death cafe, but I'm not quite sure how, but she's a just make it happen person. So she simply booked a room at a cafe and said, Death Cafe is on the last Friday in uh in January. That was in 2014, and we haven't looked back. Wow, that is absolutely amazing.

Robyn 4:07

Share with us how people react when you tell them that you're involved with the death cafe.

Irene 4:14

Um look, I'm really pleased to say that these days people, a lot of people have heard of Death Cafe, and a lot of people are more comfortable with uh talking about death and dying and grief and sharing that kind of information. Albany helps with that because it's a town that's or it's a small city really that's really, really good for people who are getting older. And these are we've got terrific sort of hospice facilities, hospital facilities, aged care facilities, and so on. So it was a kind of a ready audience in one sense. But um there was still that that sort of idea when I said, you know, we should death cafe should come along and join us. People say, Oh, couldn't come to something with a name like that. Why don't you change the name? And I said, Well, if we change the name, it would defeat its purpose, because the whole purpose is to get people talking about death. And so, as I often say, if I called it the Pockmir Clogs Cafe or the shuffling off the Perth Cafe, or those sorts of things, it it would just be it would be doing the very thing that we're trying to sort of counteract. So, yeah, the the mixed reactions. My daughter calls me morb morbs, short for morbid, and she refers to my death cult. But um you get that, she's my daughter.

Robyn 5:26

Well, yeah, I'm my my uh my ex-husband used to say, you're only comfortable amongst the deadens, right? And I'm like, you know, if we if we talked about death the same way we talked about life, we wouldn't have this, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, right?

Irene 5:45

Absolutely. And it's the same, I mean, people put so much planning into uh and preparation for a marriage or for a birth. And the other really significant thing, and the one that none of us will be able to avoid, is death. So why do we make such a big deal about it and make it seem morbid? I mean, yes, it's sad, and yes, it's scary. I don't deny any of those things. I freak out when my doctor says I need tests for this or that. But um it's just the fact that if you the more you you the more openly we talk about it, the more easily we can support each other, the more aware we are when it comes to the time of planning either for our own end of life or for the the end of life of someone that we care for. So it seems like a no-brainer, but it it didn't for a long time. No.

Robyn 6:30

And I think I my dream is that one day we don't have to put things like trigger warnings that that we're gonna talk about something about death or something like that. I actually refuse to put those on my podcast. I do have a an option of of doing a sensitive thing or whatever, and I'm like going, well, that defeats the purpose of the podcast because I'm trying to make it normal.

Irene 6:55

Absolutely. And but let me tell you, Robin, it may be that the Lady of Death name might perhaps give a few clues without you having to give a trigger warning.

What A Death Cafe Is And Isn’t

Robyn 7:03

Exactly. That's my thought as well. So So explain to us what a death cafe actually is.

Irene 7:12

Okay, can I take you back to the very beginning of Death Cafe? Yes. It was started in, I think it was 2011. It was the the whole death cafe movement itself was started by a bloke called John Underwood in the UK and um his sister, I think, um, Sue Baskey Reid. And they based it on the philosophy cafes or the Cafe Mortel, which were more specialized ones talking about death, done by uh a Swiss sociologist, I suppose, Bernard Cretas. And John Underwood thought this was a worthwhile thing to get started, so he kicked the first one off in the UK towards the end of I think it was 2011. And it's just really spread from there. They have guidelines, and the the deal is that if you want to call it a death cafe and if you want to promote it on their uh deb death cafe website, you agree to following their guidelines. So they're not for profit, it's in a confidential space. I mean, it can be in a cafe if it's around small tables, but very often it's in a side room. We happen to meet in the library. We've got a room in the library here that we can meet in. So it it varies a little bit. But it's uh the idea is that people can talk openly without worrying that what they say is going to be reported to other people or made fun of or whatever.

Robyn 8:30

And that would be particularly relevant if somebody had received a terminal diagnosis and not had not told anyone.

Irene 8:38

Exactly. Or people who are carrying strong grief or you know, upset because they've been excluded from a funeral or the the death, you know, the death room for a person that they care about, but because they're not direct family might be excluded. And those sorts of things really can be very distressing for people. So if they want to come and say, you know, my my ex-husband's family just excluded me despite the fact that they knew how much I love my mom-in-law, yeah, you don't want that being reported outside, but you need to be able to get it off your chest. So that sort of thing. And we don't have any religious or business, commercial, whatever affiliations. We're just ordinary people. Uh, we get together, we don't the the rules basically or the guidelines saying no no guest speakers, no one is there as an expert. So I've had members of parliament, I've had ministers of religion, I've had lawyers, celebrants saying, Oh, can I come along and speak at your death cafe? And I've said, You're most welcome to come along, but you come along as, you know, John or Jenny, you don't come along as John the member for this or that or the reverend or whatever. It's just individual, just ordinary people. We we don't have an agenda, we take the conversation where the group takes it. Usually we have a sort of facilitator or convener or call it what you will, just really to introduce the session and to make sure that nobody hogs the floor, um that if anybody is trying to be heard, that they get heard. But that that person doesn't set the agenda or whatever. It's just free-flowing conversation.

Robyn 10:14

And do people freely kind of bring up things or do they have to be prompted sometimes, or how does that part work?

How Conversations Start And Flow

Irene 10:24

It sort of depends on on how long the group's been running or who happens to be there. As well as our group in Albany, we've helped with the the starting up of groups in some of the other towns in the region. And sometimes in those situations, people are a little bit slower to get to get talking. You know, what do we what do we say? So we might have some starter questions like, you know, what was your first experience of death? Or can you remember when such and such happened? Or do you have any particular family traditions around death? So sometimes there might be a starter question, but usually it it sort of snowballs from there, and people have got lots to say. Occasionally uh one of us might read a poem or whatever that we've that about death that we've particularly taken to heart, and that will often sort of trigger comments and conversations. But it's really pretty free-flowing as a general proposition. And I think that particularly with our group that's been running for such a long time, and you know, there are always some people there who've been coming for a long time, as well as new people coming along with new questions and new perspectives. So we don't normally find there's any difficulty with getting the conversation going. Sometimes if there are a number of new people there, we might start with a kind of round-the-room where no one is obliged to speak, it's all just if you feel like it, but sort of whip round, just asking people to tell us your first name and what brought you here today, or tell us your first name and how long you've been coming to a death cafe, or you know, those sorts of things. And sometimes in even on the way around there, someone will introduce a topic. And we have been known to never quite get round the whole group with the introductions because two hours later we've we've followed our noses. But uh, often what I'll do is just take some uh notes, some notes on the way through of things that we want to come back to. So there might be some topics that people particularly ask about. We complete the introductions and then we say, okay, so and so you wanted to talk about this, go for it.

Robyn 12:27

I did uh when I trained funeral celebrants, I trained funeral celebrants for 10 years. And because they came from all over Australia, you know, we had to do icebreaker things, and I can't stand those getting to know you things, you know, like they just don't do any ring any bells for me. But I'd been to one once where the person said, okay, everybody who loves cats go to that corner, everybody who loves dogs go to that corner, everybody who loves both go to that, and if you haven't got any, go to that one. And so I took that concept and made it just those things to start off with, but then talked about what was your first experience of death, and then who was it, and what do you remember about that? So, so those that had had somebody die when they were very young were over in that corner, teenage in that corner, adult in that corner, and some people had never had anyone close to them die. So, you know, and they all wanted to become funeral celebrants. So, but what it did was it gave people a launching place to start talking to someone because you know, like I was only five when my dad died, and uh, you know, it had such a profound effect on me, and I wasn't allowed to go to the funeral and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they just kind of like went with that. And then uh, you know, the the the end part was to get them to talk about, you know, how what death meant to them, you know, um, and and it was just quite fascinating. So that was in, you know, the getting to know you part. In their first session, they had to write their epitaph. So what did they want to meant their gravestone? And you know, what was the message? What was the final goal that they wanted to reach? And then to just to make it worse, by the second session, they had to write their own eulogy. So I thought, well, you know, let's face it, if you're gonna talk about death, who knows you better than you know yourself? Exactly. What is important in someone's life? Doesn't matter where you went to school, or does it matter about the impact that you had on other people? But that whole concept of sharing, particularly when death first affected you, because that often shapes how we look at it for the rest of our lives.

Speaker 1 14:42

Exactly.

Robyn 14:43

Exactly. And I came from that era, the same era as you, that you know, children didn't go to funerals. Like you just didn't go.

Irene 14:51

And people carry that for a long time. We have had a number of people at at um at our gatherings perhaps lost a parent to death or auto suicide, particularly when they when they were just kids, and they weren't allowed to go to the funeral. It wasn't talked about, particularly if it was someone taking their own life, because that was shameful. Um someone who in her late 70s, 80s opened up about the fact that her as a child, her mother was very sick. She was sent to stay with relatives, her mother died, and when she went home, her mother simply wasn't there. Vanished, just gone. People carry that for a very long time. And also the way people around them react uh to it too. People refuse to allow it to be spoken of. It makes people think that there's something kind of shameful in all this, or that it's the way to do it is to keep it close to your chest. And, you know, that's not very healthy for anyone either. So those sorts of things really can affect people's perspective on death for a long time. As well as our our local group, I've on occasions been asked to facilitate a death cafe for a much larger group. I think the record was something like a couple of hundred people in a room and about a hundred people online uh for a palliative care event. And that was scary because it was going to be nothing at all like a traditional death cafe, but people were in groups of around about eight or so. And so I put to them things like, what was your first experience of death? What how did the people around you react to that? And how do you think that might have affected the way you perceive death as an adult? So, you know, that's the kind of thing that gets people in touch with those feelings, and I I've been amazed at how how willingly people will it spark something. And sometimes it's the death of a pet, which is just as valid. But, you know, those are the sorts of things that will get people in touch with their own feelings and can be really useful, I think. And particularly, you know, you're talking about funeral celebrants. But I've worked with people who are involved as hospice workers or hospice volunteers. And same sort of thing, you know, don't come in with your your ideas about the way people ought to be around death. Let's get in touch with you and what's shaped your perspective on death. And it just makes people, it just brings everybody to the same level. We're all just in touch with each other and we're all in touch with ourselves.

Robyn 17:22

And it's so fascinating, isn't it, how death is perceived by different generations, how our own experiences shapes how we see death for other people, as you just said. When somebody tells me that someone they loved died, because generally, as a funeral celebrant, you get three reactions. Either people go, Oh, that's interesting, and then change the subject, or they will ask all the questions. You know, if they make coffins six foot, how do they fit someone in six foot six? People, if you haven't heard this before, they do make coffins seven foot if you need them. Always the third one is the one I think that's always the most profound. As soon as they know that I'm comfortable with death because I'm a funeral celebrant, they will outpour the person who died most recently for them. Because it's an opportunity to talk to someone when it's maybe been two years that everybody else will think they're wacko for bringing it up.

Grief, Stigma, And Being Allowed In

Irene 18:19

Exactly. Or people will think that, well, look, you've been grieving for this length of time and you weren't that close to the person. So, you know, come on, get a grip. Time to move on. We have someone uh who came along for some time who'd uh had a who'd lost a baby at birth, uh, had a stillbirth, and as a young woman, and was immediately given the response that is still horribly popular, but was, I think, even more so the case 10 or 15 years ago, where she was told, Oh, well, you're young, you can have another baby, or something along those lines. She had she did subsequently have other children, but she still carried the grief because she hadn't been able to share it, because people were saying, Oh, come on, that was two years ago. You're pregnant again, where's your problem? It's cruel, but we don't realize that because that's the way people react. And you know, I think again, that's one of, for me, is one of the benefits of Death Cafe is that we can the more we talk about death and dying and grieving, the more we realise how natural and organic it all is, and therefore there is no set way of processing it or grieving or whatever. People do it in their own way and their own time, and all they need is someone to listen to them to support them.

Robyn 19:32

And I know, like, so um Rebecca Jane, who is my daughter, who the Rebecca Jane Foundation is is named after, she had Spina Viva. And so what I got all the time is it's a blessing in disguise because she had a handicap. And I'm like, how do you work that out?

Speaker 1 19:51

Yeah, yeah.

Robyn 19:52

But that's what people people had to kind of justify why she died, and so it was kind of like, well, she wouldn't have had an easy life, like she wouldn't have she wouldn't have had a normal life. And you kind of like go, we're talking about a child. She still had a life, she still had a life and she was loved. But as I became older, I realized that it was people groping for something to be able to say to try and make me feel better. But of course, at the time, you're going, Oh, this is terrible. But exactly.

Irene 20:22

And the people who who don't mention the name of someone you love who's died because they don't want to remind you and upset you. Like you forgot a lot of news flash, you've forgotten. Um, it's it's I'm sure for you know a lot of people it's a relief to be able to talk about them. Um absolutely. But not to not to have it shut down as sort of, oh, sorry for your loss. Um uh, I've just got to go, or people ducking. We've you know, people talk about people sort of obviously crossing the road or ducking into a shop when they see you coming because they've no idea how to react. And if we can just teach people that the things that might be more appropriate or or sh even, I mean, not teaching might sound a bit pompous, but even just sharing experiences of this did not work for me. This this hurt me. Oh, okay, that's one that I suppose I use quite a bit. I'll watch that one in future. So yeah, we can just get that's happening.

Robyn 21:16

That's the thing, isn't it? I did have that experience of literally people crossing the road. When they saw me coming, they'd literally just cross the road. And I may have told this story before on another podcast, but I was in uh a news agents once and I belonged to a young mum's group, and one of the other mothers came in who hadn't heard. She'd been away and she hadn't heard, and she walked into the news agents, and I was there by myself, of course. And she said to me, Oh, where's Becky? And I had to tell her that Becky had died, and her baby of the same age about was was there. And she absolutely totally broke down sobs hysterically, and I'm standing There consoling her when inside I'm screaming, isn't this meant to be the other way around?

Speaker 1 22:06

Yeah.

Robyn 22:07

Now I and I say to people all the time who've had someone die, often you will find yourself actually consoling other people rather than the other way around. And that's because we we feel like we've upset them by telling them the bad news. It's it's always a fickle thing to try and navigate around. And you think once that has happened to you, I remember friends of mine whose spouses have died or whatever saying, I'm never going to look at things the same way again. And yet after a period of time, they actually do go back to that. They go, I'm never going to do that to anyone else. And yet they over a period of time they start because it's what they've been ingrained with.

Irene 22:50

It's what um they've been ingrained with or we've been ingrained with. And it's also, yeah, if we don't know a different way of doing it, if we don't learn a different way of doing it, if we don't learn the things that can be a comfort or at least can avoid causing any hurt, then then we're we're less likely to do it.

Robyn 23:10

I always obviously when people hear that my daughter died, they always say I'm sorry. And and and I wish people would I think I'm much more comfortable. I and I certainly say it all the time, when someone tells me about someone who's died, I go, that is really sad. Yeah, yeah. I'm really sad to hear that rather than I'm sorry, because where do you go with I'm sorry? Yes. You go, oh, that's okay, or thanks, or you know, awkward silence. And I just find that that's sad because I am sad. You know, I'm sad for them, I'm sad for the person who's died.

Age, Attendance, And Outreach

Irene 23:48

And it's the same, I guess, uh you know, the the situation where you might think it's a relief for the other person. So someone whose partner has died after a long, yes, you know, long tough illness or has is has already effectively been gone for years in um in advanced dementia or whatever. And so there may be an element of relief in there because it's all been drawn out for so long. It's not for me to assume that you're relieved, and it's not for me to assume that you're heartbroken. And that's where you say, Oh, that's you're really sad, or that's must have been a really tough time for you. Or you know, those those sorts of things. Similarly, if I think if someone says that they've had a diagnosis of of a very life-limiting illness, we're very quick. A lot of us are very quick to jump in with, oh, you can fight this, you'll be fine, you'll get through it. Well, maybe they don't want to fight, maybe they want to accept it. So again, oh, that must have been difficult to hear. You know, you're obviously having a tough time with it or whatever. So that people have the opportunity of of clarifying what is their reaction, not what's your reaction, what is their reaction.

Robyn 24:53

And so now I'm going to ask the Christian, is there a particular age group that tends to go to these things?

Irene 24:59

Or is it mostly people are older, but having said that, it's not unusual for people to who are a bit younger to come along. So I'd say that most of the people, well, apart from in the else, we meet in in the afternoon. So that is obviously going to limit the number of people who are working full-time for getting there. Um, but we have had some more younger people perhaps come along on a public holiday when we've we know we've met anyway, and they've been available, or people who've perhaps been a little bit scathing with their parents because their mum comes along, and then the opportunity presents for them to come with their mum. And so you get some younger people in that situation. I think the meeting before last, we had a couple of young backpackers who were just travelling from, I don't know, Finland or somewhere. They were just travelling through our area and they saw a notice about the death cafe, so they came to find out more about it. Uh, and well, I think at our last our last meeting, we had um several people who probably wouldn't have been more than their early 40s, who just wanted to, you know, people who are perhaps concerned about aging parents rather than about themselves or their um their partners. So it generally speaking, it would be it would be more senior people. It's not at all unheard of to have uh have younger people there. We've tried having the occasional gathering after hours, and mostly it's been the same people who've come along rather than but whether we just haven't targeted properly. I know of one person who on a couple of occasions ran a session that she called I think she called it raising the bar. So rather than having as a a death cafe with coffee and cake, actually had it at a pub with drinks and snacks. So that seemed to go down okay. So there are different ways of doing it.

Robyn 26:52

And are there questions like how do you promote something like that? How do you get it, how did you get it off the ground?

Irene 27:00

Because my friend Kate, who was my sort of the co-facilitator at that stage, is just such a make it happen. She booked a room at a cafe, or we booked a room at a cafe, and she just put a notice in the local paper and put up a couple of posters in the library and that kind of thing. And people came along just to find out what it was about. Some people simply came along to tell us that it was a lousy idea, it would never get off the ground, and why do people want to talk about death? One person came along and began to our first gathering and actually got quite offensive. And he said, I don't want to talk about death and dying. What do you why what are you talking about this all the time for? Um because it's death cafe, that's the whole point. Um so so that's what we did. But I think over time, particularly as the group sort of endured and kept going, uh we meet every month and it became better known around Albany, and so the local paper and the local um radio stations would want to talk about it. We did branching out stuff, for example, for Dying to No Day, and some of those events um attracted some media attention. We had a an article put onto ABC Online in our region, which I think they titled it Albany, a great place to die. So it's that sort of thing, it's just it just kind of snowballed. So we don't really need very hard to promote it very hard these days. We normally, when I remember, we listed on the International Death Cafe website so that people could find us if they're if they're actually searching. But of course, that requires somebody to be actively searching. And we may have known uh say at the library and various other spots around that uh just sort of, you know, it'll catch somebody's eye. We had a couple of blokes came along to our last gathering, which is generally it's more women than men, but we had a decent number of men at the last gathering, and that was purely because they'd seen the notice on the library website. So it all kind of snowballs, really.

Robyn 28:51

So how many people would you have on average at your cafe?

Hot Topics: VAD And Tough Questions

Irene 28:56

It's completely variable. I think um last meeting was 25, the one before that was 30. We've had gatherings of four or five or six people. It's it really, it's really a bit unknowable. But if we had to think of an of an average and the kind of number we we generally reckon on, it would be around about 15, 18 people. Okay. So it's quite a decent number. And it's it tends to you get people who've been coming along for ages because it's just a topic that they they appreciate the opportunity to talk about and we explore, they'll often introduce and we'll explore some deeper topics surrounding that. You'll also get people who will come along uh because they have specific questions. You know, what's this thing that they call an advanced health directive or an advanced care directive? Or I was at a funeral recently and it's absolutely the last sort of thing I want for my mum when she dies. So, what are you actually allowed to do at a funeral? So people will come with very specific questions, sometimes too specific. We got grilled on one occasion about whether you can transfer your dad's frequent flyer points to your account because they're terminally ill, they're not HVD yet. I suggest that they contact the airline to ask that one. But you do get sometimes overly specific questions, but often people will just have fairly general questions and they come along and get them answered. Other people come, I suppose, as much as anything, just for the fellowship and the opportunity to talk freely. And we do explore some pretty interesting topics at times. And do you find that that comes from the people there, those topics? Absolutely. Absolutely. We there if there happens to be a lull, we don't um try to push any particular point. Um, but there are obviously quite a lot of people who are interested in voluntary assisted dying. Uh it was a very hot topic for a while, a few years back, when it was first introduced uh into Parliament as a possible way forward for Western Australia, and a lot of people came and wanted to talk about voluntary assisted dying and what it would mean and whether they agreed with it or not. More recently, people will sometimes come and say, My partner's really sick. Um, what can you tell me about voluntary assisted dying? Or it might be something that I'll I'll say, this legislation has now passed, and we've got a bit of information if you want it. But at that time, the local paper wanted to know, you know, what was the death cafe view on voluntary assisted dying? Well, there isn't one. The people who go to death cafe are a microcosm of the overall community, and some people think bring it on and make it more easily available. Other people will say that's appalling, that's against God's rules, or I could never do that, or whatever. People have different opinions and they're all perfectly valid. That's right.

Robyn 31:38

That's correct, yes. We we did a podcast on voluntary assisted dying, and it was absolutely fascinating. And I'd been involved in trying to get voluntary assisted dying for uh my husband's best friend. And so I'd seen it kind of from the other side, but to hear about all the background of it and all that sort of stuff was really quite fascinating. So, people, if you haven't listened to that, have a listen to that one. So, what do you think are some of the biggest challenges that a death cafe, if you wanted to start a death cafe, what what do you think the challenges are for the people who want to do that?

Starting Your Own Death Cafe

Irene 32:15

Probably the biggest one is well, where would I start? And am I properly, am I the right person? Am I personally capable of doing this? And the short answer is you start by booking a space and putting the word out. And if you're a person who is reasonably comfortable talking in a group and not holding the floor, not holding forth, but just just talking um to a to a group of people, then you're properly qualified. One of the things we always do, or I always do at the start of one of our gatherings, is to say, you know, please be aware this is not a grief support group. We're not qualified grief counsellors or counsellors of any sort. We are simply people who have gleaned a bit of information, happy to share that information, happy to pick up more information and just look, I appreciate the opportunity to talk about this. So, really, anyone can start a death cafe. I mean, it's handy obviously if you've if there are two or three or four people who are who are interested, because at least you've got your starting point. But uh anyone, anyone can start it. Uh, I give there are practical considerations along the way, like where will you where will you have this? We've we when we started off, we were in a the back room at a cafe. Uh it was very noisy, but we had uh 20 or more people at the first one. As I say, some of them were just there to tell us it was a appalling idea. Um quite a lot, quite a lot stayed on and still come. We've tried two or three different cafes which where the space has become a bit more limited as the group as the group's grown. And there have been a couple of cafes in town who've sort of, you know, death cafe. I I don't think so. You know, it obviously doesn't sound like a great, a great advert. But we've found managed to find spaces where we had enough privacy to be able to have a conversation, not so much noise that it got in the way, but we had access to coffee and cake, because that I don't think I mentioned is one of the rules. You have to have access to a cup of tea or a cup of coffee and refreshments, generally cake, because that's what makes a death cafe kind of congenial and homely and so on. We moved into meeting rooms at the library a little while back because they were very welcoming of us for having a dying to know day event. And it gives us a space, it they put on tea and coffee, and we just anybody who wants to brings along cake or whatever to share. So we we get we get all of the benefits and and none of the drawbacks, and we've got a space that we can call our own.

Robyn 34:46

Right. Yeah, I think that's you know, one of the important parts is to kind of be private enough. That was my big challenge when I was training because I did a live-in training of celebrants and to try and find somewhere where we weren't going to be with any other groups where, you know, because we used to talk at breakfast, dinner, supper, everything. We'd be chatting about morgues and and crematoriums and stuff like that. And if you were, you know, within earshot of somewhere else, people would be looking at you going, What in the hell are they doing?

Irene 35:19

One of the cafes we we used to go to was um was in a uh it was actually a lovely old building. It was an old homestead that had been moved um close to a nice beach location in Albany. And the side one of the old side verandas had been enclosed, beautiful polished boards and so on. And it was sort of cut off from the separate tables, so we just were able to put you know big tables together. But it was also the way out into the main cafe for the kitchen staff who were taking out, or the the weight staff who were taking out cups of coffee. And I remember at the end of one meeting, uh a young woman who weight person who'd gone in and out several times and given us some looks, she approached me, she said, Excuse me, did you say this group's called Death Cafe? Uh uh yes. And she said, You seem to be laughing all the time. What's the go? You know, because we do. We there's always something to laugh at. There's always something that that will tickle somebody's funny bone. You know, the chap who knew he was dying, he he started coming after he was diagnosed with very advanced lung cancer. And he came along one day and had himself a really good rant about how he wanted to travel, he wanted to fly to Queensland or somewhere, and he was really annoying because he couldn't get full travel insurance. Hello, it's because you're very close to dying. Um, but he made a joke of it too. So um other times we laugh about the people's choice of funeral songs or or whatever. So there are always things to laugh at. But on the other side of the coin, often when they're sharing stories of of grief or a you know, a worrying situation, there'll be tears. And that also is okay. We um we might not be a grief support group, but we're generally pretty compassionate and uh supportive people. So there'll always be somebody there to pass the tissues or offer to make you know another cupper or just give you a hug if that's what you need. But nobody's gonna get embarrassed and say, Oh, this is too awful, I can't sit while you're crying.

Laughter, Tears, And Tender Moments

Robyn 37:13

It's not that's not the way we do things. I often speak at things, various things for all sorts of reasons. And so often people come up to me afterwards and say, that was really great. I actually enjoyed it and I didn't expect to laugh. And you go, but it's okay to laugh. Like it's a part of life. If we can't have a joke about, you know, if you have a cardboard coffin and one day I saw them pick up a cardboard coffin and the ropes came out because the the cardboard had given away, you know. And I mean, if no one was in it, I must add. No one was in it. It was at a coffee. And it was when they first came out, when they absolutely first came out. So they were still kind of prototype type things, you know. So they decided they're gonna demonstrate it and put something in it, I can't remember, books or something, and then they picked it up and the handles came out. And we all just hysterically laughed. It was very, very funny. Or when I went to take my son home, and I uh I forgot to tell him that in the boot was uh a small coffin and he opens up the boot and like comes back in and says, Do you know what's in there? And I'm kind of like, it's at the end of the day, it's a box. Yes, yes. At the end of the day, it's all right, there's no there's nobody in it, it's fine. That's right, that's right. I often drive to uh Adelaide uh because we have family over there and for the Rebecca Jane Foundation, we have a beautiful funeral director over there who looks after all our babies for us. And when I drive over there, I will take over a few coffins that we get donated over to them. And the person who donates our coffin said, he's gonna buy me one of those voodoo dolls just in case anyone actually opens the boot and opens one of them, so there's a voodoo doll sitting. And we have a laugh about it, and that's okay. It's not everything doesn't have to be morbid just because we're talking about death.

Irene 39:22

Yes.

Robyn 39:23

And I think that's that's something that we have have to overcome so that it becomes a natural discussion, just as hey, isn't it great such and such had a baby?

Irene 39:34

Yes. And I think also the the the fact that you know people will sort of assume that funerals have to be fairly maudlin and severe and quiet and hushed. And yet people share wonderful stories of, particularly when it's been younger, a younger person who's died, they'll share wonderful stories about, you know, uh a memorial service held at the beach with the coffin there. Well, how did you get the how did you get the coffin there? Well, actually, it was in the the back of the back of the Ute. Um, as long as it's enclosed, that's absolutely fine. You can you can perfectly do that. So finding out those things, it just frees people up. You don't have to spend a lot of money on an expensive funeral if you would much rather just have a simple funeral or a simple, you know, simple burial or cremation, or or just a memorial or a celebration of life. You know, that things are not necessarily done the way they always used to be done.

Robyn 40:32

I remember when a a friend of mine's partner died and uh he said to me, Oh, you know, we need to, because it's going to be big, we need to have it in the Boyd Chapel, which is one of the biggest chapels in in Melbourne. And I turned around and said, We can't have it there. Like, what did she love the most? Wine. Let's have it at a winery. And he went, can we? And I said, Absolutely, we can. And it was fantastic. And everybody kind of went, Oh, she would have loved this. Yeah. Because it was her. Like, wine was just she had an amazing wine collection and she just loved wine. Didn't drink it like to excess or anything like that, but just loved beautiful wines. And so we were in this beautiful winery, and it was just so perfect. People and I work with people now. Uh, I have a company called Last Farewell, and I work with people uh who want to organize their affairs to what they want for their farewell. And when I'm talking somewhere, I say to people, just imagine you're getting married in a week. Do you want someone to decide where you get married, who's going to conduct the ceremony, who's going to speak at it, what you're going to have afterwards, even to what flowers and clothes you're going to wear. Of course you don't. It's your wedding, you want it your way. And yet that's the pressure that we put on the person that we love the most, who's in deep grief about you dying, to try and decide what they think you might like. And I said, you can alleviate all that by by just writing down what you want and take that pressure off the person who's going to have to think about that at the time when they don't really want to even want to think about the fact that you've died. So we can do it. We can not have to pay a lot of money. We can you can do it however you want. Have the winery, do what you want. And then they're reflecting who you are instead of being driven along the path of this is how we do it.

Irene 42:43

And it also gets away from difficulties within a family. To me, it's the same sort of thing as making your own decisions in advance about your end of life health care. The same thing that it takes the burden off your off your family, off your kids, off of the people who care for you most who might have different ideas about what you would want. And and as with a funeral, you know, well, you know, oh, I think mum should be cremated. Yeah, but she always wanted to have a natural earth burial. Or mum said she didn't want to have a funeral. Yeah, well, that's okay. We won't have a funeral, but we're gonna have a we're gonna have a wake, or we're gonna have a we're gonna have a get together at the beach so that we can toast of, you know, people have to be able to do things, a combination, I guess, of honoring the wishes of the person who's died, but at the same time answering the needs of the people who are left behind. You know, we will sometimes say, you know, who is the funeral for? So leaving some guidance, maybe writing or preparing your own eulogy or choosing a particular song is a way you can make it known to them the kind of tone you want. But if they want to bring in something of their own and they can all agree on that, go for it. That's right.

Robyn 43:53

And I just uh recently done a funeral of one of my very first clients, and the reason. That I don't normally do the funeral of that person, but she was someone I knew. And so she specifically requested that I did it. And I, of course, I get lovely uh feedback from families that I've helped, and they feel better because they've got everything organized and they're not going to do it. But this particular family, they said to me how easy it was because I said to them, How do you feel about me? You know, like I'm just this person that your mother wanted, but obviously I don't know any of you. How do you feel about me actually doing the service? Because she was a spiritualist and they weren't. And they said we don't care because it was what mum wanted. And we feel great because everything that she wanted, even down to the colour of the hearse that was going to the crematorium, was chosen by her. And they said it left us just to feel sad and not to have any conflict between the three of us about what mum shouldn't have. So, you know, and I I said to her, that's amazing because I don't normally get that feedback because I'm not involved after I've done the work with them. I I don't see them after that. So they go on and you know have their funeral and have the celebrant that I've recommended or something, but I don't hear about any of that further on. But having actually done that, I actually realize the value. So, you know, to anyone listening, if you have not let your family know at least whether you want to be cremated or buried, it would be extremely helpful just to have that conversation with them. So, all right. Now, is there anything else that you think people you'd like people to know about death cafe?

Personalization Over Tradition In Funerals

Irene 45:49

Um, there's always always more to say about death cafe. Um, I think the main thing is that it is something that really pretty much anyone can get going simply by taking the initiative and and doing it. Of there's lots of information on the death cafe website. You can just find it on Google. It gives the guidelines of of how we should run it if you want to completely follow, you know, use the death cafe name, but there's still quite a lot of flexibility. So if you you can have it as a big group, I think there's all in our group there's always quite a lot of, I suppose what the kids would call FOMO, they're frightened of missing out. So, you know, it's it's challenging trying to facilitate a group of you know 25 or 30 people when everybody th quite a lot of people are older and therefore their hearing's not as good as all that, and other people have got very soft voices. But if you say, you know, we can break up onto separate tables, no, no, no, no, we would we want to stay together. So that's what normally happens. But there are other groups that that simply, you know, they set up tables of six or eight, they maybe put a starter question at each one, each table, and people just go for it. There are different ways of approaching it. And the the conversations I've got a couple of different sets of cards that are conversation starters and stuff like that. Dying to talk cards. Or there are some called dying to talk. There are some, um, there's some friends of mine who now some of our sometimes uh facilitators called um my life story and my life story.

Robyn 47:22

My life story, that's one of the ones that I've got. And uh the other one I got from England because my life story hadn't come out then, and that was the only thing. And they cost me a fortune at the time I could do it. It was like 80 Australian dollars for two little packs of cards to be sent out from England, but there was nothing available in Australia at that time, whereas the the other one at least is like more Australian-based, it's more you know, the our conversation rather than the formal English type of things. So I tend to use those more than I use the others, but it's really interesting because when you start you know, when we when I've done a death cafe myself, when I've been a participant in a death cafe, you know, we you had really varying degrees. And when you listen to other people, you go, you know what, that's not a bad idea. I hadn't thought about that. And I think that's the value of it, right?

Irene 48:20

Yes, and we've we've used the the dying to talk cards. Um, for anyone who's who's keen to get something going and they want some ideas, through Palliative Care Australia, you can get sets of the cards, and I think they normally sell them, but I was able to get about 20 or so sets because I said it was too for for a death cafe. So I use those in my advanced care planning workshops, but I'll also sometimes, you know, in a group there were concerned, a new group perhaps were concerned about the conversation flowing, might just put people around tables and put a few of these cards, put a pack of the cards in the middle, and people draw out a card and give their opinion on it. So, you know, um a lot of that is health related, but quality of life is more important than than length of life. And that that's a great one for getting started. So, what does quality of life mean to you? And you know, how do you how do you gauge that? And aga those sorts of things can work really well to to get the conversation, get a conversation started. As I say, we sometimes use a a poem or something along those lines that normally people will just have will have plenty of questions.

Robyn 49:24

Even to the point of that initial one of why did you come along? Yes, yeah just to know what brings people together to talk about something that should be as natural as anything, but it's not, yeah, we'll get the conversation started. So yeah. I think we could talk for hours. I think we probably could. But to wrap up our sessions, as a big fan of the actors studio, I'm going to take a leaf from their book and ask a series of questions to each of our guests. So, what is your favorite word and why?

Irene 49:58

Oh, goodness me. Obstreperus comes to mind for no particular reason, but I think it means what it says and it says what it means.

Robyn 50:05

Oh, I love it. I love it. What is the thing you are most grateful for in your life?

Irene 50:10

I think where I live, particularly in a world that is proving is proving very challenging and very scary at times, I'm I feel so blessed to live A, in Australia and B in a corner of Australia that is, relatively speaking, quiet and peaceful and very beautiful.

Robyn 50:27

So uh we have a lot of people from overseas that listen to this podcast. So where tell us where Albany is.

Advance Wishes And Family Harmony

Irene 50:35

So Albany's on the south coast of Western Australia. It reminds me in a lot of ways of Scotland, where I spend a lot of my my childhood and young adulthood. Obviously, the cold. It sometimes is, but not all the time, and we virtually never get snow. But it's beautiful. It is it is beautiful. But then, you know, we can find beauty wherever we are. I love Melbourne, and it's it's really very different. Climate's sometimes similar to Albany, but mostly particularly in its variability. Um, but there's there's a lot of beauty to be had wherever we wherever we are. It's simply a case of looking for it and perhaps being deliberately grateful for the things that that kind of that that we love about where we live or that we that we feel that you know we can appreciate about about our lives. That really, I guess that also encapsulates the whole the whole death cafe concept, which is to raise awareness of death with a view to helping people to make the most of our finite lives. You know, we've there are maybe some of us believe in reincarnation, but most of us reckon that this is it, this is our life. So we're we will die, but there's no point in worrying about it. Let's just accept it's part of life and get on with enjoying the life we've got. Absolutely.

Robyn 51:53

Uh so just to uh make it a little bit clearer for those who are listening. So if you were in Perth, which is on the west coast of Australia, and you went south and went right down the bottom and around the corner, uh, you'd be on the south coast. And Albany is how far from Perth?

Irene 52:12

About four hours? Um, four to five hours, it's about 400k, but the road's not the very best. Right. But yeah, we're we're slightly east, uh we're south and slightly east of Perth, um, and about um 400 kilometres in a straight line.

Robyn 52:27

And it is beautiful because I have been there and I can testify, but it was only on a cruise, so I was only there for the day.

Irene 52:33

So Yeah, but it's a very it's very nice for coming into the harbour. The harbour's just as lovely coming into it as it is looking at it from the out from the inside. But as I say, there, you know, we um wherever we are, wherever we are, there's there's beauty to be found. And it's um, you know, let's get on and enjoy it. Absolutely. So, what is the sound that you love the most? Sound. Um oh look, I'm the the you didn't warn me about these questions, so I haven't given them anything. That's the idea. So um the first thing that comes to mind is the sound of my uh particularly my littlest granddaughter saying, Nana! Yes. Totally agree. That's that's that's a real that's a real thrill for me. But you know, music and sounds of nature and the ocean, they're all you know, they're all beautiful sounds, but yeah, that um that connection, that human connection is very, very special.

Robyn 53:29

If you could have dinner with one person living or dead, who would it be?

Irene 53:36

Who would it be? There was a time when I'd have said Nelson Mandela, but that's possibly been superseded. Um there are so many, Robin, that's the problem. There are so many people that I that I I greatly, I greatly admire. Um on a very homely front, I wouldn't mind sitting down to some steak kidney pie and chips with my nana, who died a long time back. Uh, but then there are people who I'd really love to to pick their brains or to hear their their experiences. So yeah, it would be a big dinner party, and big dinner parties don't really work. So let's just have a whole series of them, eh?

Robyn 54:15

What do you think is the most important lesson you've learned in your life so far?

Irene 54:21

Most important lesson I've learned in my life so far. I think it's that that I'm okay, I'm enough. I've I've I think I I've spent a lot of time um sort of trying to fit in where I've been, or trying to do something exceptionally well so that I could be recognized for that. And as I've got older, I just reckon, look, I'll do my best and it's it's what I can do.

Robyn 54:47

Absolutely. And directly from the actors studio, if there is a heaven, what would you want God to say to you when you met at the pearly gates? Oh, your dogs are over there waiting for you. That's beautiful. Thank you so much for your time, Irene, as we wrap up this podcast. It's been a real pleasure, Robin. Thank you so much. If you have a question you'd like to ask or any other related occupation you'd like to learn about, please drop an email to ask at ladyofdeath.com.au and we'll look at possibly doing a podcast of the questions that you've always wanted to know, but never knew or were game enough to ask. This is Robin O'Connell, the Lady of Death, whose philosophy is organising your final farewell is not about wanting to die. It's about wanting to reflect who you really are in your goodbye. Thanks, talk to you next time.