A Bereavement Concierge For The Hardest To Do List

The hardest part of losing someone is not only saying goodbye. It’s waking up the next day to passwords you don’t have, bills in the wrong name, banks that won’t talk to you, and an estate process that can stretch for months while you’re running on grief brain.

We sit down with Serlina Chu, co-founder of Herekind, to talk about the real work that starts after the funeral: estate administration, probate timelines, asset and liability searches, account closures across banks, insurers, super funds, telcos, and utilities, plus the modern mess of digital legacy and online subscriptions. Serlina explains why Herekind begins with a human bereavement concierge, then moves families into a secure online platform built to reduce legal fees, share progress with relatives, and lighten the emotional load that comes with being an executor.

Listen now, then subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more families can find practical grief support when they need it most.

Have questions about death, dying or the funeral industry? Email ask@ladyofdeath.com.au to have them answered in a future episode.

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Serlina

Robyn 0:37

Welcome to the Lady of Death podcast. My name is Robyn O'Connell, also known as the Lady of Death. Today my guest is Serlina Cho, one of the founders of Herekind, a new type of service to make it easier for brief people to navigate the myriad of tasks that have to be done after someone dies. So welcome, Serlina.

Serlina 0:58

Hi, Robyn.

Robyn 1:01

Tell me about yourself. Who do you live with? Pets and

Serlina 1:06

sure. I live with my husband and three young children. I have twins and they're three under three, and there's an eight-month-old.

Robyn 1:18

And that makes me tired just even thinking about that.

Serlina 1:21

It is busy. Oh, so thanks for accommodating this uh late evening conversation, which I've been looking forward to.

What Herekind Actually Does

Robyn 1:29

Excellent. Please explain to us what Herekind is.

Serlina 1:33

What does the company actually do? Herekind is an online platform that's providing compassionate support for people after loss. We offer a range of services. So the first step is when someone passes away, you get connected with a human being, a bereavement concierge. So that's the human element, and they'll ask a set of questions and they will tailor a checklist to help people through the grieving process.

Serlina 2:02

The next step is you will be guided to our platform where there are a number of resources. So it's aimed to support people with the administrative burden that comes after someone passes away. The administrative burden can include, you know, filling out forms, a number of accounts need to be closed. So there's banks, insurers, superannuation funds, telcos, energy providers. And we also help people with asset searches, asset and liability searches as well. So reaching out to bank accounts to look for lost bank accounts to also help executors of estates as well.

Serlina 2:42

We're also helping families with the communication process. So if you're the executor of an estate, you're in the process of grieving, and that can be quite heavy to navigate. And whilst you're grieving, we do understand that the cognitive process does come down a lot. And so with that in mind, we have a collaborator function on our platform where you can delegate tasks and also keep family members up to date of where they are up to in the estate administration process. So the overall goal of yeah, Here kind is to help families, you know, reduce legal costs involved and ultimately giving back more to the estate for the family and beneficiaries.

Robyn 3:26

People don't realise when somebody dies how complex everything is, do they?

The Hidden Cost Of Estate Admin

Serlina 3:31

That's right. It's the part that gets underestimated significantly. We have done a survey, a national survey that we launched in December this year.

Robyn 3:45

Which is how we connected because I did the survey.

Serlina 3:49

Oh, okay. So that's how you came across yes. Uh we did launch that program for two months and we had over 170 people come back to us, and the findings are actually pretty interesting and quite heavy as well. We've learned that you know it takes on average, you know, 14.6 months to do an estate, and a lot of people are experiencing significant financial stress because they're paying for estate costs up front, they're paying to keep the lights on whilst they're going through the probate and the you know selling the assets of the estate, people using their credit cards.

Robyn 4:28

Yeah, because there's all those things that you have to pay for. And and the I I have a company called Last Farewell, and I help people put things in order. There's a husband and wife, and the the husband is dying and he's got a car. So change it over into your wife's name now, be much easier than afterwards when she's got to rock up to, in this case, uh Vic Roads, our state place is called, and not only show the death certificate, but they also have to show the will. So you've got some random person in Vic Roads reading about all your assets and everything to make sure that you literally own the car. So I say to people, just do things like that to change it over into your wife's name now will cost you less than $50 and take away all that stress for afterwards.

Robyn 5:20

But there's only a certain amount of things that you can do about that. There's still processes that have to happen afterwards. But some things can be so simple to do that people really don't kind of realise, it can be organised and can be looked after when you're grieving. That's the whole point, isn't it? It's you're in this, what they now term deep grief, and you're having to think about, "oh gosh, I haven't, the car's in his name and the electricity's in his name", and you can't just get it swapped, the electricity swapped over. You've got to close that account and then open a new account. And for somebody who's perhaps been that person where the spouse has done everything for them, some they're kind of like going, how do I do all this? Yes. And I think that's where service like yours would be so good, particularly for you, I work a lot with uh families, you know, couples that don't have children. So, and the idea of getting me to get help organise everything is that they don't have some very well-meaning niece or nephew, who doesn't really know anything much, coming taking over. So having a service like yours means that they can go and you can guide them through that thing without having that influence of some person who might have a better interest than another, let's say.

Speaker 1 6:48

Yeah, that's right. And a lot of I think what you alluded to, people might be very vulnerable. So getting that family member to help out, there could be some conflicts that arise there. Or the other one that I think about is my generation. So I'm I've just turned 40, because my parents are immigrants and refugees, actually, I had to help do a lot of the paperwork for my parents growing up, so enrol for schools, and now when I talk to them about future planning, estate planning, they're not really turning their minds to that, and I just get angry. So I can see myself, if I am grieving, I will be angry because just the mountain of paperwork that I will have to deal with that's not being front-loaded, and so that's probably a roundabout backstory of what's uh driving me to do this. It's the eldest daughter fear that's motivating me. Like you've got caring responsibilities, most people have day jobs, and so having to do estate admin on top of grieving and juggling caring responsibilities, but we just want to make it easier for people out there.

Robyn 8:04

Oh, it's quite a complex area, and people don't realise that they they need to do all these things and you know, bank accounts and death certificates, and you know, as a registered marriage celebrant, I can certify documents and stuff like that. And they go, "Oh, we've got a couple." I say, "why don't you give me 10? because you'll probably at the end of the day need 10. I'll just do the 10 of them now rather than you having to come back and forwards and back and forwards". And they go, "Really?" And they go, "you know what, I used nearly all of them". And they just didn't realise that they'd they'd have to do t hat.

Robyn 8:38

So share with us about how people initially reacted when you told them because you're not in this alone. Let's let's just explain this the setup that you've got.

Serlina 8:48

Sure. Um, so Herekind's co-founded between myself and Joyce Giao, who's the CEO, and we've also got a chief technology officer, CTO Humphrey Ovie as well. So I can give you a little bit of background about them and also how Herekind was born. (R: Yeah). So, Joyce and I firstly went to high school together, but we were in different year levels. But we met through our work industry. Um, so Joyce was working in financial services for a very large bank. So she helped find their sustainable finance practice and build that up. And I also work in financial services, so in the superannuation industry, and so we connected on that front, and you know, over several drinks and coffee, yeah, we started just brainstorming this idea of a bereavement concierge. And I think for Joyce, it's a very personal story to her, but her grandfather's estate actually took 15 years to settle, so it was a long-running joke in the family. Her dad finally settled it last year, and so they were navigating lots of um assets in different jurisdictions, and yeah, the amount of time has really got uh yeah, Joyce thinking, and for me separately thinking about my parents and where I'll be when I need to settle matters. We thought it'd be a really interesting place to work and just help people with a more, I guess, compassionate lens.

Robyn 10:18

I think that sort of stuff, when you come from a place of experience of the worst kind, you know, it was one of the reasons I became a funeral celebrant was I went to a funeral and it was just morbid and depressing. It was done by a celebrant and I went, I can do better than that. So you either get motivated by two things, watching somebody who does something extremely well, and you think that's fabulous, how fantastic, or that's absolutely terrible. That leaves nothing for the family, no resolutions, no just left everybody more upset than than when they arrived. And so you get that trying to find that balance of why your motivation to do things. So I guess you've covered it a little bit, but what is it about it? What's your why? Why, why now? Why because of your parents? Or....

Serlina 11:06

For me personally, yes, thinking about my parents and also, as I already mentioned, my friends and witnessing their own experiences when they've lost parents and how overwhelming and how administratively burdensome it is for them. And speaking to them, for me, it sounded like things can be better. It doesn't have to be this way. So that's been a really big motivating factor.

Robyn 11:36

And you said that you had a CTO as well, and I think that's quite an important part because it is a lot of it is online, right?

Serlina 11:43

Yeah, that's right. So, Humphrey, who, we call him the wizard, he's uh built the entire platform. He previously led the human-centered software engineering lab at Monash University. Um, and he's also worked in financial services and also in health technology. So he's an absolute wizard to building things from scratch. So, whatever Joyce or I come up with from a development perspective, he's managed to get that integrated into the platform. And also because we're a technology-based, you know, people are uploading sensitive personal details. And so the cyber security side is a really big one. So we're actually really pleased to share that we've got bank grade level security practices, cyber security practices in place and according to Humphrey, we are unhackable. So we're

Robyn 12:40

That's pretty good.

Serlina 12:42

Yeah, I think that that's it's fundamental to building trust.

Grief Brain Family Conflict Timeframes

Robyn 12:46

It is, and I run the Rebecca Jane Foundation and my husband's a geek, and so he's built a uh platform that's so his cyber security thing is so important for anything, particularly when you're dealing with people's information. (S: Yes). We we have people's information and you have to make sure that whatever program you're using is absolutely secure, that people are filling in an application on online, you've got to make sure that that's completely secure. We actually go through a New Zealand company for our CRM because it's written specifically for charities and churches. So it enables us to have you know a volunteer as a a donor as a perhaps a recipient from us all in one, whereas most things your customer is under that sort of that product, so to speak. And this is really flexible for us, but it's been going for a long time, and we really that was the biggest thing about that part of it was to make sure that that was completely secure. Because I think everybody's, you just hear stuff every day, and that's the stuff that you hear, you don't hear about all the other stuff that you don't hear about, (S: yes), that they don't want us to know because everybody would get their knickers in a knot and they'd be in all sorts of trouble. Okay. When I had a look at your website and saw that how you've said about families feel their hands are held through the funeral, but that support drops off once the service is over. Has that come from your survey? Is that sort of information that you got?

Serlina 14:28

Yeah, that's absolutely right. It's a really poignant picture. You see, oh, what we we've got so many quotable quotes from the survey, you know, stories of families having to sift through paperwork, emails to piece a picture of someone's financial life, needing to do the detective work. And in order to get, you know, a grant of probate, you have to build a pretty good picture of the assets and liabilities. And people are grieving, they're overwhelmed, and working with not a full picture of information.

Robyn 15:04

And families are often at sort of each other's throats at times when they're grieving and they're all grieving at different times, and they start to all "that's what you say, but I know it's" and everything else, right?

Serlina 15:17

Yeah, that's right. And that's also part of what our in speaking to over 300 families. So the survey we heard from 170 families, but we also interviewed you know, around 150 families to help us design what the customer need would be. You've got family members who want they're um having conflict about the time frames, so managing expectations. So, you know, the executor, you want to move things forward, but you've got family members who are asking, you know, why are things taking so long? So the way we've designed for that is um our platform, we've got these guides to help with death literacy because that's something you don't learn in school. And these guides are either for first-time executors or for executors they can share with family members, or family members can be brought on the platform as collaborators so that they can understand what the different time frames are, depending on what state you're in, for the different stages of uh administering an estate.

Robyn 16:23

And I don't think people realise the responsibility that an executor has. That's the other thing. I'm an executor for my brother-in-law and sister-in-law who live in Papua New Guinea, and they're 10 years younger than me. Like, this seems a bit ridiculous to me. And they said, "Yeah, but you don't live in Papua New Guinea". So, you know, you do have that uh very different kind of environment where they're more at risk than uh so they they asked me if if I would do it for them. But I think very few people realise the enormity of what it is to take on an estate where it's like like theirs where they live in Papua New Guinea, but they've got property in a couple of different states and all that sort of stuff that you've got to navigate your way through.

Serlina 17:16

Yeah, it's a it's an unpaid job taking that that on or uh depending on what the arrangement is. Um so you I guess it's you've got to be wise and work out who you want to choose as as your executor. Can they handle the responsibilities? And if the executor can't, then you know your options are you can go to a state trustee or get a lawyer involved, and that can erode the estate as well.

Robyn 17:42

And that's that's the other thing, isn't it? If you you people don't realise the amount of time that a lot of these tasks are done by lawyers normally, right? Yes, so you're paying lawyer rates to do a lot of the things that you could possibly do, but don't have the knowledge of how to go about it. Yes, and that's what you provide, you provide that avenue to be able to do it themselves.

Speaker 1 18:08

Yes, that's right. So we're providing the information, the tools, and the guidance, and there's also the bereavement concierge who is that human touch point as well to help people. So this is ultimately to save people time and fees, and the non-financial cost, which you can't even put a dollar figure on, is the um emotional burden and the emotional load.

Tech That Finds Accounts Faster

Robyn 18:32

Yeah. Okay, I've got a question here that I'm going to attempt to ask because we know it's I I had a look at the website and then I started writing something, and then I went, oh, that sounds really complicated. So it might be, but let's have a go. Estate administration is often seen as cold and bureaucratic. How do you uh use technology to simplify the paperwork?

Serlina 18:56

Thanks very much. Um, so one of the ways in which we use technology is we've got an assets and liabilities register. So the way it works is you email your there's once you register, you get uh issued a Here kind specific email address, and then you can get scans of or you can go through the deceased person's inbox and forward it to your Herekind email, and then our technology scans the bank statement and picks up the bank account, how the account is held, if it's jointly held, then it's not part of the estate, but if it's in the name of the deceased, then that forms part of the estate assets, so that's you can forward all types of account or financial information, and our technology will pick that up to build the assets and liabilities register. We've also got an AI functionality as well, so it's you know, you can ask it's grief informed, we've co-designed our platform with Griefline as well. So you can ask the AI questions about the estate administration process and it could turn up some answers. We also have our online guides available, uh which I've just mentioned, which people can use to build up their death literacy. And then if they're feeling that they need a little bit more help, our platform helps connect people to professionals such as estate lawyers or accountants and we and financial planners. So we get these service providers which we vetted through the process, we get them all to sign a care charter just to make sure that we're you know on the same page, so not you know charging exorbitantly and that they apply a grief-led approach to how they work with their potential clients.

Planning Before Death Is Possible

Robyn 20:58

\ So is it possible for people to do some of this stuff before the death actually occurs?

Serlina 21:06

That is possible. That is part of our next build, actually.

Robyn 21:11

So stay tuned.

Serlina 21:13

Yes, exactly. So that's on our technology roadmap. We're in the stages of planning what the pre-death solution looks like. So that will largely involve people being able to pre-populate what assets they have or the various accounts and passwords, so they have that in a digital vault, and then they can hand over the keys to their loved ones or their executor, and all that will be held there. And then I guess after the event, they'll be able to use the platform for the account closures and the administrative.

Robyn 21:50

Tell me how it works of someone's just died. How soon afterwards? Like, do people generally wait until after the funeral to contact you? O r it how does that normally work?

Serlina 22:02

It caters to all stages, so and anytime so someone's just died or you know before the funeral. Typically we expect people will contact us after the funeral. So once the dust has settled and after that, where they've had time to you know get ready for the next phase.

Robyn 22:23

I've got a lovely quote in a booklet that I wrote, and I'm just going to quickly see if I can find it uh about passwords because passwords are obviously very important. I cannot pronounce the person's name that uh wrote it. It looks like Greeshmachowdary. So uh but it says "sharing my passwords with you was my way of showing trust and never using them for checking was yours". And I love that quote because it was just like it's so true. I I'm giving you my passwords, but I don't want you to go there. I'm trusting you not to go there until that time, unless it's something that's important for you as well. So tell me, you you use the word before bereavement concierge, tell me what that consists of.

Serlina 23:12

So the bereavement concierge is a human being. So when someone passes away, the executor or the family member will register for an account. And when you register for the account, we will ask, you know, what stage of the estate administration process you're at, and then you nominate I've already had the funeral or this is just before the funeral. And then the first step after this is you put in a conversation with the bereavement concierge, and then that's where the bereavement concierge will be able to build a checklist for you as to you know all the different steps that you need to consider as part of the estate administration. So tailoring that for the individual and just giving practical support as well, because I think it's the practical side of all the various estate administration matters, such as you know, 'how do I transfer property', 'what is probate', they'll be able to just point you to the resources that we have or just offer some on-the-phone support as well.

Robyn 24:21

Awesome. So if it's an emergency and they need to get some immediate advice, you know, the person has died in hospital unexpectedly, how realistic is it to think that they can get some guidance at that point? Like pre-funeral type thing of what they need to do? Like, I know that I'm the executor and this has just happened, and I'm terrified.

Serlina 24:52

Well, I suppose provided that you've registered and you know the appointment booking system will come up as soon as you log in. So that will dictate um how soon you can get that on the phone at this stage, given that we're building out, having that immediate call pickup support. We're not there yet, but that's something we'll look to accommodate for as we grow.

Robyn 25:17

Oh, stay tuned. We talked a little bit about lawyers before. What's their response been like for this? (S: Yeah, we are partnering). Obviously it's a new area, right?

Serlina 25:32

Yeah, we are partnering with some really reputable estate administration law firms as part of this. And when we have demonstrated the platform to them, demoed with them, or um gotten them to test the platform, the feedback's been overwhelmingly positive. They're recognising that there are some matters that are more on the administrative side that's low value, that's probably not worth their staff doing. And so that's something that Herekind will help with. And then there's the high value work, which they can be providing really complex legal advice, or they're got a more volume model, so helping to do a lot of the legal processes or you know, asset transfers. So very happy to help with that. So, yeah, we've had very good support and feedback from our partners. Which is very encouraging. We're not trying to we're not a law firm and we don't try to, you know, we're not trying to cut anyone's lunch. And so there's definitely a mutual partnership or yeah, enough space for people to take part in.

Robyn 26:41

Excellent. You mentioned before about Griefline. Tell us how you became involved with them.

Serlina 26:48

Yeah, so Joyce and Griefline, I think she got in touch with Griefline and spoke to potentially their CEO there. And yeah, they were very receptive to what we were trying to solve for, given that a number of their calls they're calling for grief support. But it sounded like it's the practical realities that Griefline beyond grief counselling can't help with. And so that's how the partnership came about.

Robyn 27:18

I've been involved in grief for the last over 40 years, and I'm very glad now that they're starting to realise that we have grief brain, like we have baby brain and all that sort of stuff. They're finally starting to realise that grief is an actual part of loss that we have so far quite conveniently ignored. So you have a hundred people at a funeral, possibly four weeks later, there might be about 10 of those people left in contact with you. And maybe uh at the end of the year, there's probably one or two, and and that's how it's been proven. And every time somebody has someone die, they go, I'm never going to treat anyone like that again. And yet it's a bit like driving past an ambulance on a road accident and you slow down and you don't, you know, you're really careful for like at least five Ks, and then suddenly you just take off again and you've forgotten all about it, right? And and I think that's very much like it is with grief that they don't want to go there to help someone else because those people kind of go, Oh, I'm never going to treat anyone like that ever again. And suddenly a few years later, they find themselves avoiding the subject and doing all that sort of stuff as well. So I think the more that we talk about this grief brain and how people, it's really difficult for people to actually make decisions. And my company came from uh a similar service of my husband's best friend died, and then my best friend's husband died within three months. And I was there during that whole time for both of those women, those widows that were left. And that's when I learned all about the things that we could have done this all before. We could have yeah, we could have got a lot of things in place. And my listeners will remember me saying this quite often that it's a bit like if you're getting married in a week and you had $10,000. Would you want someone to decide where it was, who's doing it, even what you'd wear, who would speak at it, and all that sort of stuff? We don't, but we that put that on our the person that we love the most to try and decide what they think we would have wanted. I think we the whole area of death and grief and stuff in Australia is is really so badly done.

Serlina 29:42

Oh, definitely. Did you see that article in The Age just yesterday where the person it was in the editorial section and she was saying how she didn't need to seek a grant of probate because of the estate size? It was a a very reasonably sized probate. But then when she contacted the Australian Tax Office, it turned out that there might have potentially been a tax refund, and the ATO was saying you need to get a grant of probate. So you've got the state uh level entity, which is the court saying no, you don't need probate, and then you've got the federal level entity. She got so frustrated because she had to deal with so many administrative things, she even escalated it to the taxation ombudsman, and the ombudsman's like, no, you need a grant of probate, and it was so frustrating for the person. And I I just can't imagine how you're banging your head against all surfaces once you're up against that.

Digital Footprints And Closing Accounts

Robyn 30:41

It's a really tough, really tough area. So, this whole new thing about your digital fingerprint everywhere, does what you provide advice on how to navigate the Facebook page and the Instagram that they have or whatever, does your service provide guidance on that?

Speaker 1 31:01

We touch on that uh to the extent where uh you know we want people to consider whether it will form part of the estate. So, you know, some people might um have an income stream from you know their social media accounts.

Robyn 31:16

Oh I didn't think about that, right?

Serlina 31:18

So one aspect, but um that's definitely in our build process as well, how we can help families with closing those accounts. It is it's the digital footprint, which is so fragmented across so many platforms for so many people in this modern era, it's the Facebooks and the the Netflix accounts, and you know, each one requires you to make contact with them. So we hope to be able to simplify the process by doing you know a b ulk notification to these organisations.

Robyn 31:51

I couldn't get over the fact that when my friend went to close the account because her husband had died, change it over to her name, and they said we need to speak to the account holder. Oh, She said "I've just told you that he's died". Yeah, and they were like, "Oh, uh, well, we really needed to kind of hear from him", and she's just sitting there going, "I can't believe this". Like three people in this process that she's got transferred to all asked to speak to the the account holder. And she said, "How on earth do I do this? Like, how on earth do I change that?" And it she got really, really frustrated with it. But and it was so unnecessary, uh, you know, to put that sort of strain on her when she's very newly bereaved. That's that's the hard part is that you know, people who are in that space are really hurting.

Serlina 32:48

And they're reliving the trauma by having that referred to. That's actually quite similar to another story that I carry with me often. Um, in one of our conversations with the family, you know, a woman had lost her husband, she'd notified the bank and she did everything she was supposed to do. But for six years, she continued to receive mail addressed to him. So her daughter told us that every time the envelope arrived, the mother would cry. And it sounds quite small on the surface, like it's just a letter, but like and it's a clerical oversight, or you know, the bank not updating the database, but it's what you just mentioned, reopening the wound again and again.

Robyn 33:32

Yeah. And when you think that you've got it right and you finally kind of got it right, and then the next thing arrives and you go, Oh no, start all over again. And you don't think about all the things that people do. I remember chatting to a guy who has a platform for business owners because he said he nearly died in an accident. And he said, and I thought at the time what went through my mind was all my customers will continue to be deducted that they were on a subscription, right? And he said, and this would be going on for months, they'd be trying to ring me, I wouldn't be answering the phone. And he said, that was when I realised that business owners need to put things in place when, particularly if they're solo traders. And he said, I all I could think about while I was in this process of, am I going to die? was about because that's what would happen. The subscriptions would continue coming out of people's banks. And they'd go, Oh, you know, have to ring him because I can't get on to him. And then suddenly to find out that he's no longer there. So it really uh, as because we're sole traders, I guess, in lots of ways, it does make you think about the implications of when you're no longer around, how many people will find you.

Serlina 34:52

So before we move on, my mum's 74, and um she like you is a sole trader, so she still works seven days a week, and she has a small shop where she helps people take up their jeans, a clothing alterations business. And whilst I was overseas a few years ago, she actually had a stroke, and it was astounding how you know I was overseas, I couldn't help her, and my brothers got involved, but she hasn't learned off the back of that. I'm like, "do you want to get your power fraternity in place, Mum? Um, do you want to do your will?" " No, but I'm waiting for my financial planner to get his law degree, graduate from his law degree, so he can do my will."

Death Literacy And Better Support

Robyn 35:38

It's surprising how many people do not have a will. But in the funeral industry, there's a saying that's been around for many years that says, "where there's a will, there's a relation!" They come out of the woodwork, and it's quite, quite fascinating. I I remember many years ago as a funeral celebrant, somebody had died, and I was asked to do their funeral, and there was no immediate family, just cousins and things like that. So I met with all the cousins and everything, and it was like they were all clamoring over each other of what they could take, like while I was in the room, and somebody very nicely said, "Could we just get on with this part while Robin's here? We'll worry about the other stuff later." But it was like, "I want that and I want that", and you know, and I went, Oh, good on you, thanks very much. Yes, let me just get on with mine and I'll leave you to sort that all that sort of stuff out. So so since we're both in the business of saying goodbye, how would you describe the perfect support system for a bereaved family? They see me first, then the person dies, then see you, right?

Serlina 36:42

Yeah, I guess perfect system. I think firstly, when we talk about systems, I used to think about it in terms of you know efficiency and compliance, but now I think about it in terms of emotional impact. Every delay, every automated letter being sent, or every you know, piece of jargon lands somewhere on someone's nervous system. So I now feel a deeper sense of stewardship when people trust you if they entrust you with their worst days. It's not a business problem. So yeah, you do feel accountable to the widow, you know, who cried over those envelopes that she was receiving from the bank when her husband passed away. And also people are actually usually very capable executors as well. That's what I'm referring to. But you will be so overwhelmed with confusion when someone dies.

Building A New Kind Of Service

Robyn 37:41

And so we're not asked to do it every day. That's that's I think one of the biggest things when I talk to people about they go, "Oh, this is just so overwhelming. I've never had to you know organise a funeral before". And I tell them that most people only organise one funeral in their life, yeah, and it's not their own, but they they you know, most people only do one, or they'll be the person who, like me, in the in the whole family that everybody just turns to me because they know that I know what I'm doing. So you'll either be uh the one person that does everything, or you'll be you'll only do it once. And so you can't know, you can't know all those things until you're caught up in it and like that 15 years that you were talking about before, where you know it's just grappling trying to put everything together and find things and do all that sort of stuff, because we don't plan for our death, and it's something that just it drives me nuts because you talk to the parents, and the parents say, "every time I bring it up with the kids, the kids say, I don't want to think about you dying." And if you bring it up, if you're talking to the kids, the kids say, "every time I talk to try and talk to mum and dad about it, they say, Oh, not my problem, I won't be here, you worry about it". And we've got to get that whole death literacy going to be able to make people feel comfortable in talking about it, in saying, you know, what they want and what they want for their funeral. And I just uh did a friend's funeral last week and she had spoken to me a lot beforehand, and there were a couple of things that she wanted that they didn't know about, and as an outsider, I didn't feel it was my place to say, "hey, this is what she wanted", because her husband had already done things, and so and and I know like he asked me to do the funeral, but I know that she actually wanted another friend to do it, but because he knew me because I married them, he felt more comfortable with me, and that's an honour. But if it had been written down beforehand, yeah, we wouldn't have been in that position. And I think people just don't realise the sorts of enormity of decision making that their spouse has to make. Yeah. So, what do you think are the biggest challenges you face in starting a new business like yours?

Serlina 40:06

I think reinventing how things are done as a starting point. So typically when someone passes away, you look for the will. And if there's no will, then you speak to lawyers about what to do next. So people will be inevitably reaching out to lawyers. Whereas it's the education piece, realising you know there are services out there, which is what Here kind purpose and mission is. Um, they can help you with navigating the practical challenges of the administrative effort when someone passes away. So we're that in-between space.

Robyn 40:41

And that's I agree, and I think that's the same sort of thing as what I am. But it's if you go back like 30 years ago, nobody had ever heard of a mortgage broker. If you wanted a housing loan, you went to the bank. There was no such thing as negotiating around and finding the best deal. And you had to be a loyal customer of the bank before they'd even look at you and all that sort of stuff. Now mortgage broking is everywhere. And I think eventually companies like yours and mine uh are going to be commonplace. (S:Yes). People will realise how thing we're just trailblazers in this whole new space of when I tell people that what I do, they go, I've never heard of anything like that. And I go, Well, no, because there's nothing there at the moment, but I'm starting it, and hopefully by getting in uh I guess early and and learning everything the hard way, other people will probably copy us and not have to do so much work. But they say imitation's the greatest form of flattery, right? So yeah, so hopefully we get a foothold in first in in both of our businesses where people do come to ask us questions and do all that sort of stuff for me before they die. I can certainly tell them about you when when I'm seeing them, but you can't tell them about me because that's already gone. That boat has already sailed by then.

Serlina 42:02

How validating does it feel when you do tell people about what you do or what the business is about, and someone turns around like "I wish I had this when I went through it". So, you know, those who I've shared here kind of, they're like, "This is fantastic, this is exactly what would have been helpful, you know, when when my parents passed away".

Robyn 42:24

That's the thing, and people I think they will become a second nature thing to automatically do it, like going to a funeral director. And and things will will turn out okay.

Robyn 42:36

So, how do you stay, because this the area of death is a very interesting area to work in, and and uh contrary to popular belief, it's not a morbid area to work in. People, when I speak somewhere or do a presentation or whatever, people go, "I didn't expect to laugh". It's life. All of us are going to die! It's not, I haven't met anyone yet who's escaped it. So I was listening to a lady yesterday. I was watching a clip on something, and she was 103, and she said that her way of staying healthy, and she's not on any medication or anything, was to have three eggs for breakfast and then she had something for lunch, and then for dinner, she had 500 grams of ground beef and potatoes, and she had that every single day. Oh, like all I could think of was, oh yuck, how on earth could you face that? I don't think I'd want to live to 103 and not have my different styles of cooking and everything else. I think there's a better way.

Fast Questions And Final Thoughts

Robyn 43:39

So oh look, we could keep talking for hours, but we won't. So to finish off, to wrap up our sessions, as a big fan of the actors studio, I'm going to take a leaf from their book and ask a series of questions to each of our guests. So, what is your favourite word and why?

Serlina 43:57

Passion. So, do all things you do with energy and zeal. And you know, you were saying with the death head industry it doesn't have to be somber or morbid. I think with Herekind, we our purpose is to help everyday Australians.

Robyn 44:15

Yeah.

Serlina 44:15

And so we're bringing our passion to that.

Robyn 44:18

Right. What is the thing you're most grateful for in your life?

Serlina 44:23

Good health.

Robyn 44:25

Don't realise how that is. There's a quote and I can't remember Oscar Wilde, maybe I don't know. And it's 'good health is wasted on the young'. Because you just take it for granted and suddenly you get older and suddenly you realise that it's not.

Robyn 44:39

If you could work in any other role rather than what you do now what would it be? What would you want it to be when you were a child and never got to

Serlina 44:47

I would love to work as a children's book author.

Robyn 44:54

Oh which you are in the process of making that dream come true. That's right. Do you have a title yet or is it still work in process?

Serlina 45:02

I do have a title um but I want to progress the story a little bit more on the illustration side or dabble in that before I can share.

Robyn 45:11

Okay What is the sound that you love the most?

Serlina 45:15

Rain on a rooftop at night.

Robyn 45:18

Ah nice! If you could have dinner with one person living or dead who would it be?

Serlina 45:25

Frida Kelo and I think story of resilience and pushing through the pain and just bringing beauty into how she held her head up high despite the pain has been really inspiring for me. So I'm sorry I don't know I don't know her Frida Kahlo, the Mexican artist, (R: okay) uh you've probably seen a lot of her work so she's done a lot of self-portraits with very thick eyebrows and when she was I think she had polio when she was around nine, got teased in school and then when she was around 18 she was in a very very uh serious bus accident, which my twins love me Italians they're they're a little bit macabre themselves um "we want to hear about Frida Kahlo" so she was in a bus accident and she had lifelong pain and injuries and so through the pain she learned she taught herself how to paint in bed and then yeah she couldn't have children she wanted to have children she married another artist who was also very famous at the time I think their relationship through different stories and letters was a lot of um there was probably a lot of infidelity but there was a lot of mutual respect at the same time yeah, she's had a very interesting life

Robyn 46:49

I'm going to have to look that one up I love, I love finding out about things like that it really really fascinates me. What do you think is the most important lesson you have learned in your life so far?

Serlina 47:01

It's probably to do with perseverance learnt it through my parents who migrated here to Australia as both people from Vietnam

Robyn 47:13

Wow and directly from the actors studio if there is a heaven what would you want God to say to you when you are met at the Pearly Gates?

Serlina 47:21

 Welcome!

Robyn 47:22

W

Robyn 47:23

Thanks so much for your time Serlina as we wrap up this podcast.

Robyn 47:27

If you have a question you would like to ask or another topic about death that you'd like to learn about please drop an email to ask at ladyofdeath.com.au and we'll look at possibly doing a podcast of the questions you've always wanted to know about but never knew where to go or game enough to ask. This is Robyn O'Connell, the Lady of Death, whose philosophy is for everyone to embrace life fully yet to be prepared for its natural end, ensuring when that time comes it's not just an ending but a true and authentic representation of the unique life you lived.

Robyn 48:01

Thanks see you next time !