From Shedding to Strength: Cindy Hartzell on Trust, Trauma & the Fire Horse

Some conversations feel destined.

In this powerful and deeply aligned episode of The P-I-G Podcast, we sit down with Cindy Hartzell—founder of Heart Soul Confidence-Based Horsemanship®, wild horse advocate, bestselling author, and co-host of The Holistic Horsemanship and Husbandry Podcast—to explore what happens when trauma forces us to rebuild trust from the ground up.

Cindy shares her personal story of a life-changing accident with her beloved Palomino, RC—an experience that shattered her confidence and reshaped her understanding of leadership, fear, and healing. What followed was not just recovery, but a calling: to help women rebuild trust in themselves through partnership with horses.

Together, we explore the deep synchronicities that brought our paths together, the sacred work of rescuing and protecting wild horses, and what it means to shed old identities—like the skin of the Snake—and step boldly into the Year of the Fire Horse with strength, passion, and clarity.

This conversation is about more than horsemanship. It’s about trust. It’s about trauma. It’s about leadership that begins within. And it’s about choosing movement that comes from alignment—not urgency.

🎙️ In this episode, we discuss:

• Cindy’s accident and the healing journey that followed
• Rebuilding trust after trauma—physically and emotionally
• The human-horse connection as a mirror for leadership and self-awareness
• Wild horse rescue and the importance of preserving freedom
• Shedding the skin of old identities
• What the Fire Horse year invites us to embody
• Stepping into strength with hands firmly on the reins

Whether you love horses or have never touched one, this conversation will move you. Because at its heart, this episode is about reclaiming your confidence—and remembering the strength that was always there.

Transcript

Introducing Cindy Hartsoul

Kellie 0:03

What if the path to healing isn't found in words, but in trust, the kind built breath to breath, rein to rein? Today's guest, Cindy Hartzell, knows that transformation doesn't happen by force, it happens through relationship with ourselves, with our fear, and with the powerful animals that reflect it all back to us.

Erin 0:22

As a horsewoman, wild horse advocate, best-selling author, and founder of Heart Soul Confidence-Based Horsemanship, Cindy has walked through trauma, addiction, reinvention, and deep personal loss, and turned it into a life devoted to helping women rebuild confidence from the inside out.

Kellie 0:40

And as we step out of the year of the snake and into the bold energy of the fire horse, this conversation feels perfectly timed. A reminder that strength isn't about control, it's about alignment. So whether you love horses, believe in second chances, or are ready to step forward with your own hands on the reins of life, this one's for you.

Erin 1:03

Welcome to The P-I-G, where we explore life, love, loss, and legacy through real conversations and meaningful stories with purpose, intention, and gratitude. We're Kellie and Erin, sisters, best friends, sometimes polar opposites, but always deeply connected by the life and love of the woman who taught us that courage isn't loud. It's lived. Our mother, Marsha.

Kellie 1:34

Wow, Cindy, welcome to The P-I-G. We have been anxiously awaiting this conversation. And honestly, I don't even know where to begin. So, I'm gonna give our listeners just a little background on how this connection came to be because it's aligned, it's synchronous, and it's pretty darn cool.

Kellie 1:53

Erin and I deeply believe in the power of intention. We've built this entire podcast on that foundation. We believe every conversation matters, every story is important, and every life journey has meaning and purpose and deserves to be heard. So part of our intention moving into 2026, year two of The P-I-G, was to deepen our exploration of life, love, loss, and legacy. We were also hoping to find a guest who could help bring light to the magnificent transition we're in as we shed the skin of the snake and jump into the saddle, hands firmly on the reins of the fire horse. Some conversations don't happen by accident, and this is absolutely one of them.

Kellie 2:42

Cindy, from the moment we connected, there was this quiet knowing like our paths had been running parallel for a long time and finally crossed at the exact right moment. We share a love of horses, both domesticated and wild. We share a love of freedom, of health, of holistic healing, healing that isn't rushed or forced into a box of how it should look, but healing that is felt, nurtured, and shaped by life's experiences. We share a life full of resilience, of perseverance, of courage and bravery, of falling and rising, of learning, discovering, growing, becoming, and everything in between. And honestly, we share so many little idiosyncrasies that I already know we're gonna laugh about today. So many that it's left all three of us in a bit of awe and wonder.

Kellie 3:36

But today's conversation isn't just about horses, horsemanship, and healing. It's about shedding identities that once kept us safe, learning to trust our bodies again, and choosing movement that comes from alignment instead of urgency. This episode feels like a true convergence of our personal stories, our shared values, and our collective timing. So we are incredibly grateful that you are here with us today. We can't wait to see where this conversation takes us. So, new friend, with all that said, let's begin where it all started. Take us back to the beginning of Cindy's story.

Origin Story And Early Trauma

Cindy Hartzell 4:18

Wow. Well, first of all, thank you. That was an amazing introduction. And the universe is magical. Yeah. You guys have literally come into my life when I am... I feel like I'm emerging, you know, this Year of the Snake and the Horse. I feel like I'm emerging from a cocoon state where I've spent more than a year just really going inside and being gently nudged by my spirit guides in the universe that it's time that I be seen and heard, and mostly heard that my gift is my voice and my story. And quite honestly, that scares the shit out of me. And so you reached out to me at a time that was no mistake. And you two, I feel so connected to you that it's easy to share. So thank you. Thank you.

Cindy Hartzell 5:18

Where does Cindy's story begin? You know, there's a lot of milestones in my life, but I think I'm gonna go to my conception because I believe that the energy in which we take form in a human body helps lay down some of our energetic, not the DNA, and I know you're into genetics, so I am, you know, I want to be careful, but I'm gonna talk on a more energetic way, you know, because our thoughts create us.

Cindy Hartzell 5:52

And so I was conceived by my mother having - I'll be kind - and say an affair with a 14-year-old child... when she was 24. It turned her world and my half siblings' worlds upside down. As I was growing up, she would joke that I was the only one that she smoked and drank with while she was pregnant with me. And I never really knew why until I became an adult and understood I was her deepest, darkest secret. And she had meant to put me up for adoption, and that fell through. And when my siblings met me, they they had been taken away from both parents in a domestic violence situation, and my mother's older sister had custody of them.

Cindy Hartzell 6:44

So when they would come, they came to visit her, and I was born. My sister was five and saw this bassinet in the studio apartment and ran like a dolly, right? And my mother yelled at her, "Don't touch her, don't talk to her. Leave her alone."

Erin 7:01

Wow.

Kellie 7:02

So that lets you know how I... the soup that I ripened in... the energy. And then my first formidable imprinting, cuddling, bonding was not there. Right? So I spent my entire life feeling the love-hate relationship between my mother. I had a step-father that came into our lives when I was two and did not know until I was 14 that he was not my father. Very abusive environment - mentally, emotionally, physically. And my sister, who's five years older than me, used to tell me, "You have this light about you that no matter where you go, you light up the room." And on the flip side of that coin, she would tell me that I was left on their front doorstep. Because in her mind of a five-year-old, I was. Yeah. That was all she knew.

Cindy Hartzell 7:59

Yes.

Kellie 8:00

You came from somewhere.

Erin 8:01

Right. She just showed up. Right. Just there one day.

Cindy Hartzell 8:04

Then my parents, they were both very narcissistic, wounded childhoods themselves. Okay. As I've done all this healing my entire lifetime, I have no blame. I have the wounds and the scars, but I understand, right? Because we all have our story. They had abusive childhoods. And so they were doing the best they could with what they had. Right?

Cindy Hartzell 8:27

Well, they created this kind of twisted story, like one of many, that I was like theirs. So there were his - he had four that I didn't know until I was 16. And then she had three that I was raised with two. One got left behind with the dad. And then there was me. So they raised me together, right? Who doesn't want to do that when you're a loving couple? Well, that created even more hostility between my sister and I. And to this day, we don't have a relationship. I don't have a relationship with either of my siblings. And my mom just passed. That's part of the story we'll get into.

Cindy Hartzell 9:03

Yeah. But that's by choice. It's too toxic for me to live the lie and the game. And I'm all about authenticity, you know, be accountable. Let's talk about it. Let's move on. So growing up, there was a lot of shame and a lot of guilt and a lot of unworthiness that I lived by. Yeah. And it wasn't until I got older that I realized that that was put on me. It wasn't mine. But I also had a very controlling father. So anything I did, we weren't allowed to have a voice. So anything I did was shamed or guilted or even punished for. We had a babysitter that came into our lives. She was an amazing woman, but she had a teenage son that started raping me when I was five. And it carried on until I was nine. And being a mother, I have no idea how nobody knew that.

Kellie 9:56

Yeah.

Cindy Hartzell 9:56

Right? I mean, I have no idea how nobody knew that.

Erin 10:00

Wow.

First Pony And Survival

Cindy Hartzell 10:00

But I carried that shame because he grilled it into me that I was a bad girl, and if anybody knew, I would be in so much trouble. Little did he know that at home, if I spoke out of line, I was getting spanked with a ping pong pad until my butt bruised. So there was nothing I was ever gonna say about it, right? So then as I grew into an adult and to a teenager, my parents did the smartest thing they ever did for me, and they got me a pony. That was when I was 11. And he was the first being that ever showed me unconditional love. And he was the first being that set healthy boundaries. When I was out of line, he let me know it. And four seconds later, we were besties. He was my confidant. As I became 13 and things were awful at home, I learned about guys and I learned about drugs. I became a drug addict from the time I was 13 until I was 23 when I got pregnant with my son.

Erin 11:04

Wow.

Cindy Hartzell 11:04

Yet I always had my horse, which I believe kept me alive, right? And then when I had my son, he was my reason for living and my reason to never do drugs again. But I still continued to live my life striving to be worthy, striving to rid myself of the shame and the guilt and the unworthiness, and always felt this driving something inside of me, like, you know, there's something I'm supposed to be doing, but not knowing what it was. I have always had an ability with animals that many other didn't, and that always stood out, you know, and I just I didn't think anything of it. It was just natural.

Cindy Hartzell 11:51

I became a vet tech at an early age, and that lit up my world. Fast forward, I had a daughter in a dysfunctional marriage. We got divorced. He became the dad that I had wished he'd always been when we were married. So my kids have a great relationship with him. And I met the man in my dreams, who I am still married to today, 28 years later. We started a veteriness together. We raised our kids together. He's been my biggest fan and my rock next to my horses. Over the years, I've had many horses. I've raised two young horses. The first one I got was when my son was, I was nine months pregnant, and the horse was nine months old. Oh timing was kind of crazy, but he was my rock and he was amazing. And I was sitting out with him. We moved to Truckee and we got a little ranchette, and so my horses were with me. Truckee was a great place. That's where we started our veterinary practice.

Kellie 12:57

Oh, you're I have a great friend that lives in Truckee. That's awesome. I love that part of California.

From Vet Tech To Partner In Practice

Cindy Hartzell 13:03

It's beautiful. It's a great place. It's so different now. It's like a small Vail now, you know, just overpopulated. But when we moved there, it wasn't like that. But I was witnessing my teenage daughter's friends going through much of what I went through as a teenager. And I was sitting out with my horse, the one that I had raised as a baby and my rock, you know, gone through my my kids' divorce and all this stuff. I was just sitting there and he would stand behind me with his head over my shoulder. And I was thinking to myself, how can I help these kids? How can I share the gift of horses with these girls who are being shamed and guilted, and their worthiness is just being attacked in ways it shouldn't be? And I thought to myself, I don't want to give riding lessons. I don't, that just doesn't turn me on. How can I use my horses in a way that helps them? Not use my horses, but you know what I mean. And so I set out and I found a thing called equine-assisted growth and learning and therapy. And I got certified in that in 2004, worked with a psychotherapist for many years with my herd, and it was amazing. Everything's on the ground. The horses are their mirrors. I was in awe at my herd of three. We'd work with eight people in a day, and my horses would show up just exactly the way each individual needed them. They would mirror them, they would push their boundaries, they would pull out their strengths, I mean, they would stand there for an hour and let somebody bury their head in their mane while they cried. I mean, it was just amazing.

Cindy Hartzell 14:55

The thing I didn't like about it was I was the equine specialist, so I wasn't getting to use any of my life skills of having gone through what many of these people were going through. And so I set out and found equine assisted coaching and become certified in that, where the coaching team is my horse and I. And that's what I've spent, I think I started that in 2009, and that's what I've been doing, along with running a veterinary practice.

Cindy Hartzell 15:26

But in 2009, I lost Rondo, that horse. And I got a little six-month-old PMU horse, little palomino white paint horse. And for those of you that don't know what PMU is, PMU is stands for Pregnant Mare Urine, and it's what they use in Premarian, which is an estrogen supplement. And so what they do is they take these big horses and they breed them, and then they put them in stalks, which is just something they can stand in, and they put a urine catheter in them and they collect their pregnant urine and they use that for Premarian. The byproduct of that is all these babies. And when it first started out, they were sending them over to Canada for slaughter. And a lot of the horse advocates said, "No, no, no, we want to adopt them."

Cindy Hartzell 16:19

So that's how RC came into my life. And he was RC for Rondo's Carbon Copy.

Erin 16:27

I love that.

Cindy Hartzell 16:28

And he he picked up where Rondo left off as far as teaching me and helping me to heal. He was the best horse I ever had. And when he was 11 years old, he started developing some pretty erratic behavior. And in 2017, I was unhaltering him and he spooked and knocked me unconscious for 15 minutes. I had a triple brain bleed, was in ICU, neuro ICU for three days. And the day that it happened, after everybody left and they gave me medication to help calm my head down, I had three brain bleeds in the where the two parts of the brain come together. I had three brain bleeds in that crevice, the one in the front, and then worked back.

Cindy Hartzell 17:18

And after everybody left, I was laying there. And I prayed to God, you know, will I ever be able to write again? Will I ever be able to have a conversation with my kids? Will I be able to play with my grandkids? You know, what what's gonna come of this? And the small quiet voice said, "If you could have one thing come from this, what would it be?" And I, without hesitation, said, "Inner peace. I want to know you, God, on the deepest level. And I want inner peace."

Cindy Hartzell 17:53

I was a long recovery from that. It took about six months before I was back on horseback. My horse continued to have erratic behavior. And in 2019, I was tying him up to my horse trailer, and I teach horse safety and rope safety for a living. The horse trailers have that metal cleat that's like a half circle on it that you put the rope in and you tie. Well, I had put the rope in and I was holding on to it, and he spooked and pulled back. And when he pulled back, he sucked my hand into the cleat, and I lost half a finger in the tip of the other. That was very hard for me to come back from because it was like, I don't know this horse, I don't trust this horse, I don't want to get near this horse. And my best friend and my husband, as I was recovering, said, "You need to go talk to your horse." And I said, "I don't, I don't have anything to say to him." And they said, "He is so depressed" - that he only lived with two other horses. Grant you, we have 11 horses, and he lived with two in a big pasture.

Cindy Hartzell 19:06

They said, "He comes out of his shelter to eat and drink and goes back in. You need to go talk to him." And so one day when nobody was home, I worked up the courage and I walked out and he met me at the gate, and we walked down to the shelter, and I sat down against the back of the wall, and I kind of buried my hands in my head, my head and my hands. And granted, my hands still wrapped up and everything, right? And he comes and he puts his head against my forehead, his forehead against my forehead, and I'm sobbing. I mean, just sobbing. And finally I look up at him, and you know, so his head is like just inches away from mine, right? And he has tears streaming down his face.

Erin 19:53

What?

Cindy Hartzell 19:54

And I was like, "Oh my God, RC. I don't know what's happening to you, but it's okay. We're gonna be okay." Well, and we just sat there and cried together. I mean, literally cried forever. And then I got up and hugged him, and that began our healing process. And then he got more erratic, and and long story short, he had a brainstem lesion. And by the time I lost him in 2021 at the age of 13, he had the equivalent of somebody with severe Alzheimer's. There were days he recognized me and his herd, and days he didn't know any of us.

Erin 20:35

Wow.

Cindy Hartzell 20:36

And so it was hard to let him go, but he continues to be one of my greatest teachers, even on the other side. (music)

Cindy Hartzell 21:30

He's a big gypsy van or quarter horse mix. But through the journey of these traumas, I began to realize that there are so many women out there in this world that have been injured by their horses or have lost their confidence. They've witnessed somebody else be injured, or they had horses growing up. They did life, and now they're in later golden ages, and they want a horse, and yet they're scared. It's not like When we were 13 and we had no fear, right? Now said it in our forties to sixties, and it's like, ooh, this is way different. So in honor of RC, I started teaching, finding our way back from trauma clinic. And I was blown away, blown away at the women who attended and the courage that they had to attend and get back on a horse. But during all of this, I still had the shame. I still had the guilt. I still had the unworthiness. And I was doing great things.

Cindy Hartzell 22:32

I forgot to say in 2004, I realized that I was an animal communicator because there's that thing called animal communicator, pet psychic. I'm like, when somebody introduced that to me, I'm like, "What?" She said, "You're a pet psychic." And I'm like, "I'm a what?" And she goes, "Well, you talk to animals." And I'm like, "We all talk to animals." And she's like, "But no, you understand them." And I'm like, "Not everybody does?" So I set out and went to training certification for it. And the trainer's like, "What are you doing? You know more than we do."

Erin 23:04

I mean, can you do to teach the course?

Discovering Equine-Assisted Work

Cindy Hartzell 23:07

Yeah, exactly. So I'm like, all right. So, you know, I throw that in, and then my husband, you know, it was that was interesting. He's a veterinarian, right? So he's very scientific. And everything has a formula and has to make sense, right? And so I had a new understanding for people who are gay. I know that's not politically correct, but coming out of the closet, right? Sharing something that you don't want to share with the world, right? I felt like that when I had to tell my husband, "Oh, and by the way, I talk to animals." He goes, "I know you do." I go, "No, really, I do. Like I understand what they're saying."

Erin 23:43

But they talk back to me.

Cindy Hartzell 23:44

That's the thing, that's the concerning thing. We have our own secret language. He's like, "I believe you." And I'm like, "What?" He goes, "I've worked with a lot of veterinary technicians in my lifetime. And you have a way with animals that I have never seen."

Kellie 24:02

Beautiful.

Cindy Hartzell 24:02

And I'm like, "Oh, thank God."

Kellie 24:04

He doesn't think I'm crazy.

Cindy Hartzell 24:07

You're not gonna leave me because I'm some woo-woo whack job because...

Erin 24:10

Oh no, you're still a woo-woo whack. You're my woo-woo whack job. And that makes all the difference.

Kellie 24:16

That's great.

Cindy Hartzell 24:18

So I do that a lot, and I work with amazing animals and people, and I often am the last person that gets called before the animal is put down or you know, all this stuff. I talk to a lot of people's pets who have passed unexpectedly. So you could say I'm intuitive, but when it came to my own like healing and life story and how do I heal all this stuff inside, it was hard. You know, it just was hard.

Cindy Hartzell 24:46

And I started my spiritual journey in 2000 and I've very devoted to it. When RC went through what he went through and I lost him and started working with other women, it was like I have to walk the talk, right? I can't just be talking this is how you do it. And I'm a firm believer in only teaching what you know. And often you only know it because you've gone through it. And so these last three or four years, I've been doing more introspection and became very, very interested in the autonomic nervous system and how that plays out and how it directly related to the emotional body, right? And I first got interested in it with horses because see that, right? Yeah, because of their fight or flight, right?

Cindy Hartzell 25:40

Well, I should rewind to 2011. I started working with wild horses and talk about needing to be grounded and present and aware of your body language, because that's how horses communicate, right? Actually, 90% of all communication is body language.

Kellie 26:01

Yeah.

Cindy Hartzell 26:01

But with horses, it is all of it, right? Well, with mustangs, it's even more so. And so they really taught me to recognize when I was being incongruent, right? I'm trying to present myself as, "Oh, you can trust me and I'm gonna be your friend." Right? And then there's the predator part of me going, "And how can I touch you and get my hands on you and get a halter on you and do this and that and everything." Right? And boy, they really, really called me on my behavior, meaning that when I was present and authentic and had no hidden agenda, they wanted to be with me.

Cindy Hartzell 26:45

But the minute that I dropped into that predator, gotta get it done, want to get it done, oh, that was good, let's do more. They were like, peace out.

Kellie 26:56

And they're gone. I can't trust you.

Cindy Hartzell 26:59

Yes. In 2011, fell in love with them and have been working with them in many levels since then. In 2013, I managed a herd of 130 that had just been removed from the range onto a sanctuary of 600. Amazing women to take on such a project, but none of them really knew horses. So I got to be the one that managed these horses. And that's when I became 100% certain that I wanted to be a life coach and I wanted horses to be my partners because I would get there before anybody knew I was coming. Because once they knew I was there, then we had things to do, right? And I wanted to just soak up these horses.

Kellie 27:46

Yeah, just be in that energy because they hold such a magical aura around them. I mean, it's just incredible to share space with that wild, powerful creature. It's magnificent.

Cindy Hartzell 28:00

Yeah, and you know, there's a part of there's a part of them that they connect with you, but yet they're still so incredibly wild. They have this ability to reach into your heart, but then they almost kind of waken that wild within you. But I would sneak up there.

Erin 28:19

I love that.

RC, Injury, And Grief

Cindy Hartzell 28:19

Yeah, I would sneak up there in the morning and I'd climb up on this mountain that split the two pastures. So no matter which side they were on, I could see them. And I would sit and I would watch. And so there was 130 of them, but there was so that made the herd. But within the herd, there were seven bands, aka family at various numbers in each band. And I was watching these horses who were two weeks ago in the wild, and now they've got fences surrounding them, and they're cramped together. And I witnessed them sorting it out, yeah, identifying boundaries. And sometimes they were very aggressive, setting boundaries, and other times they were subtle, like what just happened? Why did that whole band of horses just move, like urgency move? You know, so it really made me watch the body language and what they were saying to one another, but it was interesting to watch their resilience. They had lost their freedom. These bands keep a fair distance away from one another in the wild, and now they're cramped together, and how they were learning to coexist, to set healthy, firm boundaries, and they all go back to grazing. That's the nervous system, right? The autonomic nervous system at play. Incredible adaptation ability.

Kellie 29:51

Yes

Cindy Hartzell 29:52

Yes, and then watching the whole group of females within one band nurturing the babies and literally Auntie, who has nobody, taking all the babies so the moms can all go lay in the sun, you know? Yeah, and it was so clear how these horses have so much to teach humans about life, yeah, about coexisting, about healthy boundaries and immediate forgiveness and no grudges, no judgment. You misbehave, you can't follow the orderly conduct of compassion and courtesy and respect, then you just go hang out there until you get your shit together, and then you politely ask to come back.

Kellie 30:40

Yeah

Cindy Hartzell 30:40

You know, that was in 2013-14 when I left that job. I took seven with me, who I still have to this day, and two are very, very wild still. Not all wild horses want to become gentle. No, not all wild horses are meant to be ridden, not all horses are meant to be ridden. Yeah, and being able to honor that. So as I sat and healed from RC's injuries and having to let him go, and how can I help women, and learning about the nervous system and how that's directly connected to the emotions, and learning how to help horses. We teach horses mentally and physically, but we don't teach them about emotional fitness. And we don't teach horses about emotional fitness because we don't teach humans about emotional fitness.

Kellie 31:31

This is a big, big topic in our lives, personally, professionally, on the podcast.

Cindy Hartzell 31:38

You can't teach what you don't know. We are right there with you on that one. Yeah. I think for all of us who have gone through trauma and are on the other side to take our stories and help hopefully enrich others, we've had to learn about emotions. Yeah. Because we've had to shut them down in order to survive. Right. And then we had to learn how to give ourselves permission to awaken those emotions, the good, the bad, the ugly, the mess, in order to find ourselves through the other side. And horses have the same issues. And the way I've learned to help horses through teaching them how to be a partner and not a tool, and how to have a voice and a choice is by helping them to recognize their emotional body. And when their heads above their withers, they're in their sympathetic nervous system. When their heads below their withers, they're in their parasympathetic. And there's a different chemical releasing going on.

Cindy Hartzell 32:36

We teach all our horses in that sympathetic adrenaline junky place, reactive mode, not thinking mode, and then we we're so stupid. Then we get on their back.

Kellie 32:50

This should be fun.

Cindy Hartzell 32:51

When they're in a total state of survival, adrenaline driven, and we have this thing in their mouth and cranking the shit out of their mouth and expecting them to behave, right? Whereas if we can just simply teach them how to self-regulate down into that parasympathetic, releasing endorphins and serotonin and understanding that they can put themselves in that own place and no, I'm not going to teach you up here, but if I can get you in that neutral plane and dipping into that responsive thinking, my entire body's getting blood and oxygen plane. Yeah, miracles happen.

Cindy Hartzell 33:33

So by learning how to do that with horses, then I learned how to start doing it with myself and recognizing when shame and guilt and unworthy were flaring. I was in survival mode. I was an emergency veterinary technician.

Erin 33:50

Wow.

Cindy Hartzell 33:51

And good at it because I was a freaking adrenaline junkie because I was raised in survival mode.

Kellie 33:57

Yeah.

Cindy Hartzell 33:58

So when I started going, it's safe to be in the parasympathetic nervous system and release endorphins and serotonin. Everything in my body said, "What the hell is wrong with you? You are gonna die. If you don't stop this, you're gonna die. You're gonna lose everything that means anything to you" because that's what happened as a little girl. If I misbehaved, I lost everything that meant anything to me, right?

Cindy Hartzell 34:22

So here I am trying to learn how to navigate through the emotional body, and everything inside of me is saying, "Don't do it," right? So then you know, lots of breathing, lots of meditating. I wrote a book last year called Breaking the Chains Within. It was in a writing retreat, and I was at this writing retreat going, "What the hell am I doing here? I'm not a book writer, I don't even have a book to write. What am I doing here? I'm not a writer. This is stupid." And so I'm like, "Okay, well, I'll meditate" because they take you into meditated state. So I went into this meditative state. Whoa, holy smokes. Ding, ding, ding.

Cindy Hartzell 35:00

All of a sudden, there's this vision of this prison cell with a little girl and a beautiful woman sitting in it. And the little girl is hunched down in fear, and the woman is just like total surrender. And I'm like, "What the hell is this?" Well, it turns out that I'm being guided that the goddess warrior I am, which I teach a retreat on that, is here to free my inner child and my authentic higher self that's been imprisoned within my mind. And I high rescue them, I set the place on fire, we go walking hand in hand, holding the little girl between us. Um now I'm giving my book away. And as we're walking off, Rocky appears on my me, this 3G person's side, and R C appears on my higher self. RC does.

Erin 35:53

Wow.

Cindy Hartzell 35:53

And we're walking off into the horizon. And I write this book and it gets published.

Kellie 35:58

I can't wait to read it.

Erin 36:00

I know.

Cindy Hartzell 36:00

Now I'm like, "Now what? Yeah, yeah. They're free. The horizon, what where? Where are we going? Now what? Who am I?"

Erin 36:07

Yeah.

Kellie 36:08

All that progress, who am I now? Right. Right? Because every step opens up a new doorway, it leads to a new pathway. What's next?

Cindy Hartzell 36:19

And every time the past wants to keep grabbing on to me because it wants the ego wants to survive, right? And the only way the ego knows how to survive is to keep drudging up the past, right? And keeping you in survival mode. And every time that's coming up, I'm seeing this vision of burning down the prison. And it's like, you can't go back. You can't go back. It's gone. The other vision I kept getting was a horse running into a burning barn.

Erin 36:46

Oh wow.

Brain Bleed To Inner Peace

Cindy Hartzell 36:47

When there's a fire, you you don't turn the horses loose from the barn. You literally have to lead them away, or they'll keep running back in because to them that's safety. So my inner child kept wanting to go back into the burning barn.

Cindy Hartzell 37:03

So horses throughout my life have not only kept me alive, but they have kept me growing. Like, what would the horse do? Or the horse would show me in physical reality, something that metaphorically added up to what I was going through internally. And so here I'm sitting at the beginning of 2025, not knowing it was the Snake year. Didn't know it. Sitting here going, "Now what?" And in meditation, I was introduced to you are in what we call the Liminal Realm. And I'm like, "The what?" I have to get my dictionary out for that one. And basically it's that in between, right? The past no longer serves you, but you have no idea what the future holds. So you're in this space, and I'm beginning to learn that, well, isn't that the present moment? It is, but it isn't, right? Because right now we're in between the Snake, this we're ending the shedding of the snake, and we're beginning to enter into the Year of the Fire Horse. And so we're experiencing both energies, but the snake is demanding we shed everything and anything that can't move forward. Right?

Kellie 38:18

Which is part of the un-comfortability that we feel when we're in this in-between space.

Cindy Hartzell 38:27

Yeah. Yeah. And it can be irritable and frustrating and exhausting. Yes. And you feel resistance. Yet there's this part of you that's like, "Well, something's brewing," you know?

Kellie 38:40

Yeah.

Cindy Hartzell 38:40

What is it? But we don't know what the Year of the Fire Horse is going to feel like, right? Because it only happens once every 60 years. So most of us have not experienced this kind of energy. And so that's the liminal realm, which to me is on that spiritual energetic level, like your higher self and your future self are coming together going, "Okay, we can do all these things," right? And then there's that physical part of us, I call it the goddess warrior who lives in the day-to-day, and she's like, "Oh, you know, we still got bills to pay and we got laundry to do and we got unfinished business." And then there's the inner child that's going, "But is it safe, right?"

Cindy Hartzell 39:24

Those traumatized inner children. So that liminal realm became a place that I started spending a lot of time in. I don't know if it was by choice or not. It must have been. But what I learned was to stand still and witness the shame and the guilt and the unworthiness, but not to dive into the wave of any of that. You know, and the analogy that I use for myself and for some of my clients is imagine you're sitting on the shore of the ocean, right? And we're watching the waves and we're watching the water and we're watching the wave build and build and build, and it starts cresting, and then it breaks, and the water comes up and it just whooshes up against you. And you can stand still because you know it's going to recede back out into the ocean, right? Well, that became how I started dealing with all these emotions of the shame of my mom and my siblings and my own actions.

Cindy Hartzell 40:27

You know, I did some stuff in my life I'm not proud of. And I would always dive into it, right? That's what keeps us stuck in the past, is we dive into it. And so I'm like, okay, well, if I'm sitting on the shore and those waves are actually emotions, right? And they're waves of emotions building and building, and then all of a sudden you're bracing, right? You're getting in that survival mode. You're like, "Oh my God, can I stand still?" And it hits you, and it like takes your breath away, right? And then you just endure and it washes out. And as it washes out, your body comes back into that present moment and calms into that parasympathetic nervous system. And you're in the present moment, you're grounded and you're safe.

Cindy Hartzell 41:18

So within this liminal realm, I would do that with each thing that would arise. And then I started taking that out into the work I do with women and horses. And as they would well up, either horse or woman, I would be that grounding, breathing energy to help them stay in their bodies. And when they were ready, I would teach them that technique. But the horses, you don't have to teach them that technique. They just feel you grounded and they just match right up with you.

Kellie 41:50

Right? That alignment is so beautiful between human and horse. When we allowed the space for it. Yeah, yeah.

Cindy Hartzell 42:39

I should start first by saying in February of 2025, I had my first granddaughter who is just amazing. So she was the light. But then from there it went. We lost the ranch that we were leasing with four months' notice to remove 11 horses and find a new place. And we decided we wanted to leave Nevada, go back to California. And through all of this, is like, okay, somewhere, somehow, I really screwed up and everything is being taken away from me. The inner child is like, "I told you. So not only are you losing your home, you're gonna lose 11 horses, two dogs, three cats, you're gonna lose it all." So back to the liminal realm, I go, right? This can't be true. This can't be true, you know. That's the past. I'm not bringing it forward, but what the hell? What is happening? What's in the future? You know, the nothing was presenting itself.

Cindy Hartzell 43:42

So current state, now we went from a 5,000 square foot home to a 300 square foot RV. I have 10 of my horses an hour away from me, spends four hours a day going to take care of them. Thank God I have an amazing client, Rae - I love you, if you're listening to this - who takes care of them in the morning. My birds are an hour away in a different direction being boarded. And Rocky is here close so that I can, in those moments of needing to remember why I do all the things I do, and that I'm not really crazy, or maybe I am. I go ride him, I go hug him, I go cry in his mane. He's my rock.

Cindy Hartzell 44:24

And isn't it interesting to see? His name is Rocky. And this is how the universe works. We had Rondo, the first baby. We had RC, Rondo's Carbon Copy, and now we have Rocky. So they're all Rs.

Kellie 44:38

The three Rs.

Cindy Hartzell 44:40

The three Rs. And so I am in the process of writing my second book. Actually, it's going to the editor right now as we speak, called Where the Hoof Prints Lead. And that's me, my inner child, and that my higher self and my two Rocky and RC looking out into the horizon. And where are the hoof prints taking us? And they're taking us to some ranch in Redding, California that will first be my sanctuary and then will be a sanctuary that our offer for women. But we gotta get through this damn Snake year. And the shedding has been uncomfortable as hell. Yeah, ladies?

Kellie 45:21

Yeah.

Erin 45:21

Yeah, it has been.

Cindy Hartzell 45:23

You know?

Kellie 45:24

Yeah.

Cindy Hartzell 45:24

And I've been, oh, I have so much to say, but just in relationship to that, you know, the the hardest parts to shed, the things that are clinging on to the very, very end, are just the hardest, right? Like I just want to shake it all off already.

Kellie 45:42

Yeah.

Erin 45:43

Yeah.

Cindy Hartzell 45:44

And they're sometimes hard to identify, right? You just it's crazy because you literally feel like your skin is being pulled off, right? But our human brain wants to identify, well, what is this? I need to know. Label it. Yeah.

Kellie 45:59

We want to label everything because if we label it, we can see it, understand it, reckon with it, do something with it.

Cindy Hartzell 46:08

Yeah.

Kellie 46:08

Right?

Cindy Hartzell 46:09

Absolutely.

Kellie 46:10

And it's very easy to think about letting go of the things that we don't want to carry into the next year, right? It's just like, nope, I don't want to take that with me. So it's easy to let go. What's harder to reconcile, to label, to name, and then recognize in all of this is that there are things that if it was up to us, we probably would carry into next year. But the universe is saying, like, this is not good for you. This is not going to serve you. Like you have to shed this for reasons that you don't know, you don't see all of that. And so that's to me where the pain point comes from. I'm very happy to leave many things behind in 2025. But that discomfort is coming from lessons I'm supposed to be learning, things that I have to leave behind because they are going to no longer serve me in this next phase of my life. And trying to wrap your head around that and reconcile that is challenging.

Mustangs And Radical Honesty

Cindy Hartzell 47:13

It's very challenging because, you know, I think those things that we either consciously or unconsciously are wanting to bring forward are the things that have made our life work. Some in twisted ways. Sure. Some of it is that nervous system that's in survival. Some of it is the identities of who we have been that has been successful, you know?

Kellie 47:40

Because so many times, even though we all have a lot of drama and trauma in our childhoods and our upbringing, in our marriages and divorces, and parenting, and you name it, friendships, work, blah, blah, blah, all of it. But because it's life experience, there is a level of comfort in holding on to it because it was part of our life and it's it made us who we are. And therefore, it's not something that certain ones of us, I'm raising my hand about as high as it goes, feel we can just step out of and step away from without having it kind of right here. What I love about what's happening is the recognition of what can be in the rear view mirror and not riding in the back seat.

Cindy Hartzell 48:38

Yes.

Erin 48:39

Yes.

Cindy Hartzell 48:40

I often find myself because there's a lot of things, like good or bad or ugly, right? I guess the better way to put that is if I had the opportunity to do my life over again, I would do it exactly the same way.

Kellie 48:54

Yeah.

Cindy Hartzell 48:54

Because I am who I am because of it. I have my beautiful children. I, you know, right? But what I've been realizing in, and I love the rear view mirror, right? I mean, there'll be times I'm driving and I'm like, "Nope, that's in the rear view mirror right now. Bye-bye." You know, but it's like we don't want to let go of our past because there's so much wisdom in the experiences that we've had. It's the emotional attachment to the drama.

Kellie 49:23

Yeah. That becomes the baggage that you carry in your emotional backpack.

Cindy Hartzell 49:27

Yep. Right. And so, you know, I teach it with the horses. How can I, especially when I'm introducing a wild horse to the life with humans? I know that they all came with baggage because they were rounded up, right? So their first engagement people has sucked.

Kellie 49:46

It's brutal, it's brutal, period.

Cindy Hartzell 49:48

Traumatizing for them. Yes, yes. So here this human that's trying to say, "Let me show you another way." Right? And one of the things that I try to remember and help with them is how can I teach them a lesson that's gonna make them uncomfortable, gonna make them scared. And it's a it's a living wild being, and I'm a being. So shit happens that we cannot predict, no matter how much you try. Excuse my French, I'm sorry.

Kellie 50:20

Don't apologize. It's a podcast. We can say whatever we want here.

Erin 50:22

Yeah.

Cindy Hartzell 50:24

Awesome. I'm always thinking about how can I do this in a way that the lesson, the experience, the wisdom, the knowledge is more powerful for them than any of the emotional or physical mental discomfort. And when I realize that's what my main goal for these wild horses was, I'm like, that should be the main goal for all of us. And how I can heal from my past is by that right there. Forget the details, forget the drama, forget the story. What is the wisdom? What is the experience? How does it empower me moving forward and those of the lives that I touch, be it horses, be it humans? So in the shedding of the snake, even if I don't understand what the discomfort is, I'm trying to say, if it doesn't serve me, I let it go.

Kellie 51:25

Yeah.

Cindy Hartzell 51:25

I don't need to know everything. Because what does the Fire Horse mean? The word fire is kind of like, whoo, that gets your attention, right? Right. Yeah. Fast forward, fast moving, powerful, hot, hot, can burn you if you don't know how to handle it, right? Exactly, right?

Kellie 51:45

It could be your greatest gift or it could be a great tragedy.

Cindy Hartzell 51:50

Right. If you try to control it, right, or dive in with your old patterns, right? You're gonna get burnt, right? Right.

Erin 51:58

If you don't respect it, yes, right. If you respect fire, it can be a wonderful thing. Yes, but if you don't respect it, that's when you are at risk.

Cindy Hartzell 52:09

And we're only here because of fire. Yeah. Well, I like that. I like that. Respect it. You can't control it, respect it. Because the Fire Horse represents for us the opportunity, it's movement, freedom, momentum, and bold life expression. But you don't wake up on February 18th and you magically have these. What you bring forward, what you hold on to from the year of 2025 and before is going to have more movement, more freedom. Some of that, like, no, more momentum and bolder expression. Right?

Kellie 52:52

So that's why it's so important to decide very consciously what we're holding on to and bringing forward and why, and what we are releasing through that shedding and why. Our choices matter.

Cindy Hartzell 53:08

Yes. I mean, they always matter, right?

Kellie 53:11

Right, of course.

Cindy Hartzell 53:13

But in a time like this, where there's greater power and magic and wisdom at work than any of us can imagine. But if we are consciously aware of how we're moving forward in these times, it can be quite magical, yeah, yeah, and powerful.

Kellie 53:32

And serve our higher selves and serve our greatest opportunities.

Erin 53:38

Yeah.

Herd Dynamics And Boundaries

Cindy Hartzell 53:39

Yeah. You know, yeah. And it's kind of, you know, it's been a crazy year in so many ways in 2025, right? To think about shedding. I mean, there's each individual, and then there's that collective consciousness.

Speaker 4 53:52

Right.

Cindy Hartzell 53:52

And for each of us that are doing our work consciously and shedding that that no longer serves us, we are those drops of water in the ocean that's changing the volume. We are changing the tide. I'm looking at my notes, and you know, one of the things it says about fire is that it amplifies what already exists. So we get to bring those things about us that we've nurtured and we've grown and we're proud of right now, you know, like your guys' amazing podcast and your project and my books and the sanctuary that I've got in my mind. Those are the things that if we bring into the air of the fire horse, it is only going to build and grow. And so I hope that all of those who are listening to this podcast really sit and think about. Now it's not like February 17th, everything magically changes and you're behind the eight ball. No, no, no, no. No, no, no. It's not a one and done. It's this entire year is the making of.

Erin 55:04

Yeah, it's a process.

Cindy Hartzell 55:05

Yeah.

Kellie 55:06

Right. Like we're just stepping into it, but it's not complete. Like we're just literally just getting started. You know what's so exciting for me about this conversation is that we are recording this episode, the three of us sitting together, February 5th, 2026. This podcast launched officially one year ago today.

Erin 55:31

Today.

Cindy Hartzell 55:32

Happy anniversary!

Kellie 55:34

Thank you. And this episode is going live on February 18th, the first day of the official Fire Horse year.

Cindy Hartzell 55:47

Happy birthday, everybody. I love that. Yes. Yes. And you know, the fire horse is grounded and does not move through urgency. It's steady, it's steady, consistent, conscious, strong, stable, momentum, yeah, nurturing. If you think about a horse, a horse has the ability to use all of its senses in a way that we can only imagine.

Cindy Hartzell 56:21

In 2020, I decided I was going to become the best horse person, horsewoman I could be for horses. But five years ago, when I've created my first online course, like I am this horse, I am going to teach what I know, right? Which was huge, scary. I committed to learning as much as I possibly could about how horses see and engage in this world. Like, you know, horses see monocularly, so they see two worlds. We see binocularly, so we see out in front of us, but we can't see sideways. So if I'm on top of a horse or I'm working beside a horse and I'm saying, "Trust me as your leader," I need to be able to see as much of a 360 view as they can. So I've worked really hard on strengthening my peripheral vision. And then three years ago, a doctor said, "You need eyeglasses, and we're, by the way, they're gonna take your peripheral vision away." And I'm like, "I'm not wearing them. No, you're gonna have to come up with a better solution because, uh, I pride myself in being able to see what my horses are seeing because I want them to know that they can believe in me."

Kellie 57:38

Sure, and it keeps you in alignment...

Cindy Hartzell 57:41

And like hearing. So horses are always aware of themselves, their herd, and their environment. And can we do that moving forward into the year of the horse? Can we become more aware? Because so many of us, and I do it, I'm guilty of it, going through life unconsciously.

Erin 58:03

Yeah.

Kellie 58:03

No, I love that being aware of yourself, your herd, because we all have one, and our environment simultaneously, and expanding that level of awareness and being very conscious of it moment to moment, day to day, experience to experience.

Cindy Hartzell 58:23

And then learning how to work with the autonomic nervous system like prey animals do.

Emotional Fitness For Horses And Humans

Cindy Hartzell 58:31

This was fascinating years ago when I was taking the equine assisted learning and growth. Actually, no, it was actually my assisted coaching, equine coaching training that we were required to read Waking the Tiger Within. Fascinating book. A lot about the autonomic nervous system. But prey animals live in the present moment. And, you know, this kind of talks about what I was talking about before. They experience trauma, especially in the hands of humans, that they will have triggers, you know, something in that present moment happens that all they have is the memory of their past, and they look through that Rolodex and go, whoa, this is like that. I need to react this way. I mean, that's how humans, I mean, that's how we engage with the world as well, right? But a prey animal has the ability to be in the present moment. Something in the environment happens, they real quick check into their memory bank and all the dendrites, memory cells that have been laid down, and they're like, is this safe or is this something to worry about? If it's something to worry about, they go into that sympathetic nervous system, fight or flight, reactive mode. They react when the stimulus is gone. Horses blow out, right? They lower the head, a gazelle shakes, lowers their head, and starts eating, lowering the head puts them into parasympathetic, releases endorphins and serotonin, and all the blood and oxygen returns to the whole entire body. Yeah, they're in the present moment. Can we learn to do that? Can we learn to recognize my emotional body is saying warning, warning, look at my environment, process what's going on, react or respond, take nice deep breaths and return to the present moment. Return to calm.

Kellie 1:00:22

Yeah.

Cindy Hartzell 1:00:22

I mean, that's what the fire horse has to offer us this year. But one thing I want to say that I found fascinating that most people don't know. We all know about adrenaline junkies and we know about the sympathetic nervous system, fight or flight. You're in reactive mode. That's why people who are type A's and always, oh, right, they can't really stop and listen to you because they literally can. It's not that they don't want to, physically, they can't.

Cindy Hartzell 1:00:50

But what's fascinating to me is the sympathetic nervous system. When we go into that state, our body automatically slows the oxygen and blood flow to every part of our body that we don't need to survive. And it all goes to the muscles, the heart, and the lungs.

Kellie 1:01:13

Right, because that's what we need to run.

Cindy Hartzell 1:01:15

Right. And if you think about it in the horse sense, right, that's how we're training horses, right? So they're literally not thinking. Right?

Erin 1:01:24

Right.

Cindy Hartzell 1:01:24

And so when we stop stimulating them and we have the chance, the horses and the prey animals lower their heads, we kind of start trying to take deep breaths, right? Then and only then does the blood and oxygen return to the rest of our body so that we can start thinking and responding and breathing. And oh my God, I gotta go to the bathroom and you know, all those things. Right. Isn't that fascinating? Think about how many people in this world are literally day to day living in their sympathetic nervous system.

Kellie 1:01:59

Yeah, they're in fight, flight, or fear all the time.

Cindy Hartzell 1:02:03

Yeah, yeah.

Kellie 1:02:04

And that becomes the norm. Yeah, that's a dangerous and scary and sad place to live. Now, sometimes it's a necessary drop-in, drop out, right? To survive. But the number of people who are living there is concerning.

Cindy Hartzell 1:02:21

It is, and that's why the pharmaceutical companies are so successful.

Kellie 1:02:24

Oh, absolutely they are.

Cindy Hartzell 1:02:26

And that's why life coaches and business coaches like Marcus and and all of us who do it in one form or another. Our job is to help people safely navigate back into that parasympathetic nervous system being the norm.

Kellie 1:02:44

Yeah.

Cindy Hartzell 1:02:44

Or even better yet, that this is a thought coming to me. Would it be that liminal realm, that present moment where you oscillate from parasympathetic to sympathetic depending on each given moment?

Kellie 1:02:58

Well, yes, because there's extraordinary value in that space. Right? If you tuned into the wisdom of what you can recognize and learn and gain in that realm as you're making that transfer to that state of calm.

Cindy Hartzell 1:03:17

So, you know, some of us feel like we're in that liminal realm space right now as we're shedding the last parts of the skin and we're getting ready to jump into this fire horse year, which is in of itself like, wow, what does that mean? It's exciting, but a little scary. Learning to be comfortable in that space of unknown and open to receiving without feeling like we need to control it, that's pretty powerful.

Nervous System Science In Practice

Erin 1:03:43

That statement, actually, to me, encompasses everything that you do and have done. And when we think about, you talked about it so much too in the beginning, right? When we think about horses and training horses and trying to, you know, control them, teach them what we know, teach them what we want them to do, where we want them to go, right? Seeing the world through our binocular eyes, even in that way. But it's so profound to me that so much of who you are, the work that you do, what you've accomplished, and this beautiful journey that you have taken and that you take others on ties back to that kind of respect of the fire horse, right? But changing that narrative of even with the wild horses, making it less about what can I do to them, what can I teach them? What can I, how can I control them? How can I get a saddle on that horse, you know, and all of those things. And instead being open to what are they trying to teach me? What can I learn? What can I learn from this creature and from their life experience and the way they see the world and the way they operate in this environment? I want to really recognize you for how well you listen to those animals because yes, can you speak to them? Yes, you are the horse whisperer, right? And and like other people have told you, and like your husband has told you, you know, like, yes, you have a gift and you can communicate with animals and you can speak to them and you do talk to them. You're not the crazy lady. But for me, it's even more profound that you are listening to what they have to teach you and your clients, each other as well. And so I think as we all step into the fire horse year, then that's really important. This is a chance for all of us to say, okay, well, what does the horse know or recognize in me that I don't recognize in myself? What does the horse see in me? That needs healing or attention, right? And you witness this every single day. The horse knows what your client needs. And different horses step onto the scene in different ways to serve a different purpose. But for all of us, and I'm raising my hand now as high as it'll go, right? What does the horse, whether it be a physical horse, I'm gonna come to your ranch. What does the horse have for me? What does the horse know about me that it's trying to teach me? What lessons are there for me in this moment? It's really powerful.

Cindy Hartzell 1:06:39

Yes, very powerful. They thrive on routine, and their home is important to them as it is to us. And my horses, I have some magical mares that are the most beautiful healers and teachers. And they will literally come and put their their forehead on my back as I'm shoveling poop. And I'm like, what are you doing? What are you trying? This is not I'm helping.

Kellie 1:07:50

I don't have opposable thumbs. Otherwise, I'd take the shovel and do it with you.

Cindy Hartzell 1:07:55

They're making me miss the wheelbarrow and pick up the poop twice. And when I stopped and said, Okay, two of you, my two most magical mares, women horses that teach my goddess warrior workshops with me. What? And they were putting their foreheads on my heart. Oh the back of my heart, which is receiving, the front of our heart is giving, the center is trust, and the back is receiving. And they're asking me to receive their presence and their grounding and their trust that we are okay. I don't need to control it. And my two wildest ones need me to be able to get a halter on them because their hoofs, they're no longer wearing them down like they were where we were before. So they need attention, but they're not letting me in the way that I used to. It's very clear that they're saying you have to find a better way. And so I'm like having to dig deeper, know what used to work for so many gentle in of wild horses. These two who I've had for 11 years, 11 seems to be the number.

Erin 1:09:09

It's a one-year.

Cindy Hartzell 1:09:11

Yes.

Kellie 1:09:11

It's come up many times in this conversation already today. You got your first pony at age 11. RC was 11 when he started showing his symptoms. Yeah. And 2011, you started working with Mustangs.

Cindy Hartzell 1:09:25

Oh, yes. And so, yeah, that's what they're doing for me. But Erin, yes, the one thing we didn't mention today, you guys, which is as important in numerology. This is year one. So it's all about new beginnings, you know, the Year of the Horse, the Fire Horse.

Kellie 1:09:46

Shedding what's old and stepping into what's new.

Kellie 1:09:49

Cindy, I don't want to forget to say this. When you were talking about your mares nuzzling the back of your heart, the place of receiving, I was just filled with giving you their expression of gratitude. "Can you receive my gratitude for you just being present in this space for me, for cleaning all of this up?" So gratitude. And then again, like Erin was saying, all those lessons that are held within their wisdom, you know, transferring through into you through your heart.

Erin 1:10:24

Yeah.

Kellie 1:10:25

Wow. Warm fuzzies.

Cindy Hartzell 1:10:27

Yeah. Very much so. Hmm. Oh. It's amazing. It really is. It's amazing. And meeting you guys in the time of the last part of the shedding and stepping into the fire horse, it's it's exciting.

Erin 1:10:43

Well, Kellie even said it a little while ago, and we talk about this a lot, and we've talked about it in this episode a lot, but just the power of alignment. And I could not be more grateful that we found each other and that we have so much alignment in so many areas of our lives. The warm fuzzy is the perfect description for that because my heart just feels so full. And when we talk about stepping into the Fire Horse year and being so intentional, I'm so grateful that you are now part of our family and that we get to step into this Fire Horse year with you and your herd. I am so grateful that we are aligned.

Cindy Hartzell 1:11:32

I am too. I am too.

The Liminal Realm And Shedding

Kellie 1:11:34

And I do want to share because this is such a fun story. So Erin and I were being very intentional and we were dreaming and casting our vision net, right? We want to find somebody that we can talk to about the Fire Horse year. And Erin also knows since the very beginning, having an episode or episodes just on wild horses has been something very, very important to me. Because when we talk about life, love, loss, and legacy, man, that is the story of the wild horse, right? And Marcus and I are very passionate about saving wild horses, keeping them on the range. We have one of only two horse management areas just right outside our back door. We spend a lot of time with the wild horses. We are on every list, every nonprofit, every petition, you name it, we're involved with it.

Kellie 1:12:30

And so on social, I'm connected to every wild horse photographer, every wild horse sanctuary, every wild horse nonprofit. And so I see a lot of that information in my algorithms. And lo and behold, literally the day after Erin and I cast our vision net, I saw this posting and I went, oh, that's so beautiful. The picture was beautiful. What was shared in the post was beautiful. And so I saved it and I kept it saved on my phone for about a week. And then I said, "I wonder if I could find out a little bit more?" So I investigated and I went to your page and then went to your website and found your phone number and left a voicemail, and here we are. So it really is a very fun story about doing exactly what we've talked about throughout this podcast, which is taking action on and stepping forward in faith into the calling, the tug. And Cindy, you got right back to me. We shared some voicemails and text messages. And then the moment that the three of us connected on a call to just meet and learn and talk, and is this the right fit? Gosh, what did we have? A two-hour call?

Erin 1:13:48

Yeah, we were like, we should have been recording that. That could have been its own episode.

Cindy Hartzell 1:13:52

It's pretty amazing because, you know, as I said earlier, I've spent, you know, like the last couple of years feeling like I'm in this cocoon state. You know, I really part of shedding of the snake has been people in my life that I've that for whatever reasons, various reasons, just aren't coming forward with me. And I was feeling like, you know, I lost my mom in on December 18th, and we were estranged, but my daughter and I and our grand my grandbaby, we went and we were at her bedside, and that was beautiful. It was as beautiful for her as it was for us, and it gave me the closure that I had no idea would be as beautiful. I have my immediate family, which is beautiful, but I don't have an extended family by choice. It's toxic. And I was in this knowing that it's time for me to step up and be seen and heard, which again scares the shit out of me. I like horses, but people scare me sometimes. Um and I'm great with my women retreats, but people scare me in a bigger sense sometimes.

Cindy Hartzell 1:14:55

But I was like wishing I could have a community, wishing for a tribe, but so often I step in and I quickly step out. Yeah, there's no resonating. And when you reached out, there was just something in my heart that said make that call. And I was like, Yeah, I know later. No, make the call. So I literally like had to call you right back. And yeah, sitting with the two of you and just feeling your energy and having the conversation we've had, it's like you guys are literally, like, I told you the day we talked, you are literally an answer to my prayers. You are the kind of women that I want to align with. And to hear you say, Erin, that I'm part of your family, I needed you guys. I needed women who inspire me, who are authentic, who are going to encourage me to be better and even create a safe feeling like we'll take you as you are. You know?

Kellie 1:15:57

So yeah, we're all crying now because we're all perfectly imperfect, but you're right, Cindy, to have a herd that holds space for you just as you are in the moment that you show up. That's to me what this year is, reflective of that. How are we going to show up, number one, in the world and inside of ourselves? And how are we going to show up and hold space for those that are part of our herd, part of our community, part of our tribe? We'll call it whatever you will. And our paths have collectively led to here, which collectively involves every single person who is taking the time out of their life because that's a gift that they give to us, that they can't get back their time. And we don't want to waste it. So there are really, really, really great things to come. And Cindy, I do want to hold space if you want to talk about it at all for your mom, because you did just lose her, and that was a big transition for you.

Cindy Hartzell 1:17:07

Yes. I would love to have you guys hold the space because it's still very, I'm still processing, you know. And what's interesting is there's not grief. And the reason I say that is because, you know, I was her deepest, darkest secret.

Cindy Hartzell 1:17:22

There were numerous times in my adult life that I asked her to tell me the truth of my conception, and she viciously attacked me. And the last time on Mother's Day of 2019, my stepdad had been gone for five years, and I was the one who was the hospice caretaker for him, which was interesting because he was one of my number one abusers in many ways. But I still loved him and forgave him. But she, I still held a lot of anger towards. And so when I reached out on Mother's Day of 2019 and said, "Hey, can we can we heal this together? Can we get the elephant out of the room, tell the truth, and move on together?" And her reply was, "Consider me dead to you." And I said, "I'm so sad." And grant you, I've been working on this since my husband came into my life and gave me permission to be me, right? So I had already done a lot of healing. I was the healing together. And I said, "I'm so sad that you're willing to give up a relationship with your daughter instead of heal together."

Fire Horse Year And Choice

Cindy Hartzell 1:18:33

And so I literally did not talk to her. But my niece called and said, "You need to know that she's in the hospital and she may not survive." And I'm like, "Okay, peace out. You know, she doesn't want anything to do with me. I've she's been dead since 2019 to me, per her request." And then the more that I thought about it, and I told my daughter, and at one point, my parents were a very important part in my life when my kids were young. And so I told my daughter, because I thought she needs to be able to make her own decision. My son hasn't had anything to do with my parents forever. She said, "Okay, I kind of feel like I want to go see her. Will that be okay with you?" And I'm like, "Yeah, you know, do what you need to do." And then I hung up and I was like, you know what? I need to do this. I need to go to her bedside. And it's the Year of the Snake, and I need to give her back the shame and the guilt and the unworthiness and the lies and the secrets and all the shit she put on me so she could narcissistically live her life in this fairy tale world that she created. And so that was my selfish intent.

Cindy Hartzell 1:19:40

And so we showed up at the hospital and she couldn't speak. She was, you know, intubated on life support, but she was very conscious and aware. And she was suffering dementia. And so I didn't even know. I called my daughter and I said, "Hey, I want to go see her. Let's go. Let's bring Mason. If it works out well, she can see her granddaughter. She may not know us, depends on the day."

Cindy Hartzell 1:20:03

And so we got there, she saw me, her eyes got wide, and I walked in and I said, "Hey, mom, do you know who I am?" And her eyes lit up and got tears in her eyes, and she shook her head, yes. And I said, "Can I hold your hand?" And she shook her head, yes. And so I held reached down and held her hand, and she, man, did that lady have a grip on her deathbed. She had a grip. And I kind of jokingly said, "What the hell have you gotten yourself into? Look at you, you're a mess. What are you doing?" You know, and she laughed, and then you know, we talked about things, and then Katie came in and she was as equally surprised, and she just kept looking at the two of us, and she grabbed Katie's hand and squeezed. I go, "Is she squeezing your hand?" Katie's like, "Yeah."

Cindy Hartzell 1:20:48

So literally for like an hour, she squeezed our hands. And then my sister and my niece came in, and you know, they had decided to pull the tube. So we got to bring my grandbaby in, and all she wanted to do was touch that grandbaby. She just kept grabbing and she just kept looking at me and looking at Katie. And it was a very tender moment at one point. I and she when she still had the tube in her mouth, I said, "Mom, I love you so much." And she mouthed, "I love you too," with that tube in her mouth. And so she passed shortly. We got there at two o'clock. She passed by 11:45, and we left.

Cindy Hartzell 1:21:28

And then three days after, in my meditation, both my parents came walking towards me out of this bright white light, and they were holding hands and they were young and vibrant. The one thing that they did have was a very true, true love for each other. And I really believe that that was probably the truest love either one of them felt in their lifetimes because they did have rough childhoods. And they came walking towards me, and I was just like, Whoa. I said, "What are you guys doing here?" And my mom said, "We're here to pick up our packages." And I'm like, "Packages? What packages?" And my dad said, "Our packages. You have one for each of us." And I said, "I don't know what you're talking about." And my dad was not a communicator. And he said, "The packages that we want you to put everything we ever did to you into them. We love you more than you'll ever know. You were the angel in our lives. We didn't know how to love you the way you deserve to be loved. Every hurt, every harm, every shame, every guilt, every unworthiness, you put those in those packages and you give them to us."

Cindy Hartzell 1:22:42

And so I visually just dumped everything that I was gonna dump on her at the day she was dying that I didn't, you know. I mean, I did quietly say, "I forgive you for everything, and yours is yours, and mine is mine." But I did that, and they took them and they both kissed me on the cheek, like they did the day they gave me away to my first husband, which my dad, we were walking up the aisle, my mom on one side, my dad on the other. And my dad's going, "We can turn around, we can turn around, we can turn around." And I'm like, "Dad, shut up. There's like 300 people here." You know, it's a Catholic wedding. And so they both kissed me on the cheek and they took their packages and they turned around and walked back off into the white light. And I felt so free and so cleansed. And even to this day, when something comes up, I acknowledge it, and then I put it in the package and say, "Here, I forgot to give you this." And one of them will, in my mind, I hear them say, "Thank you, baby."

Erin 1:23:44

Wow.

Kellie 1:23:44

What a gift you gave to them. What a gift you gave to yourself, and what a gift they gave to you. That is such a beautiful story to me of reconciling the recklessness of life, right? The icky, the the stuff that's really hard. Thank you for sharing all of that.

Cindy Hartzell 1:24:06

Thank you for letting me. You know, it's been interesting. Like I said, there's not been grieving as much as there's been tremendous healing and forgiving.

Kellie 1:24:15

Yeah.

Cindy Hartzell 1:24:15

You know, wow. Pretty amazing stuff.

Kellie 1:24:19

What I love about that too is that all of that came, your mother's passing, the reconciliation, the reckoning, and the beautiful imagery and meditation, as you're choosing what you're shedding and not carrying forward into this year.

Erin 1:24:37

Yeah.

Cindy Hartzell 1:24:37

And you know, you can't make this stuff up, ladies. No. I mean, I entered to 2025 having no idea it was the year of the snake. I don't honestly really pay attention to a lot of that, right? Yeah. But when I found out, I was like, oh my.

Kellie 1:24:52

Oh my this makes so much sense. And it's very timely. You know, it's timely for different people, but clearly it's timely for you, and it's been timely for all of us.

Cindy Hartzell 1:25:04

I have one thing that I'd love to share for our audience listening.

Erin 1:25:10

Yes, please.

Cindy Hartzell 1:25:11

And it's just a message of moving from Snake to Fire Horse. And it's you don't need to rush this time transition. You don't need your answers yet. Discomfort often signals you are standing at the edge of real change. And just uh something to remember. We don't enter a new chapter by pushing forward, we enter it by becoming congruent enough inside that new movement no longer cost us ourselves.

Kellie 1:25:44

That is so powerful. Could you share that all again? I think that deserves repeating.

Cindy Hartzell 1:25:51

I'd love to. You do not need to rush this transition, you do not need answers yet. Discomfort often signals you are standing at the edge of real change, and we don't enter a new chapter by pushing forward, we enter it by becoming congruent enough inside that movement no longer cost us ourselves.

Erin 1:26:20

Wow.

Kellie 1:26:21

Thank you.

Cindy Hartzell 1:26:22

You're welcome.

Kellie 1:26:23

Did you need to hear that, sister?

Sensing Like A Horse

Erin 1:26:25

Yes, I have been very uncomfortable, so I am welcoming the season of change. Yes, I did need to hear all of that. Thank you.

Cindy Hartzell 1:26:35

You're welcome. You're welcome.

Erin 1:26:37

I needed to hear everything that you had to say today because hearing the stories of others helps us create a more meaningful connection to our own. And without fail, every conversation we have, every incredible guest that we get to feature. I learned so much about myself and my own journey. And that has absolutely proven to be true once again today. So thank you for your honesty, for your vulnerability, and like I said, for welcoming us into your herd, your family. It just means more than you will ever know. This is just the beginning of our friendship and our relationship. I know that we will have you back. And I know that we are just getting started with the power that is before us for all of us.

Cindy Hartzell 1:27:34

Yes.

Kellie 1:27:35

I love that.

Cindy Hartzell 1:27:36

Yes. And we don't quite know what that's gonna look like yet, but boy, I'm ready. And having you guys in my life and in my family and in my herd just makes it even more exciting.

Erin 1:27:50

Yeah.

Cindy Hartzell 1:27:51

And just gives me a more complete sense of moving forward. You know, like I'm not alone that I I have this new amazing. Heard of women and men. You know, I've listened to your podcast with your guys and talk about some amazing men.

Kellie 1:28:09

Right? Yes. Yes. We agree.

Cindy Hartzell 1:28:12

We do agree.

Erin 1:28:13

But you know, you said it in the very beginning, and I just want to echo it back to you where you said, my gift is my voice. And that is true. You have so much wisdom, so much insight. You have many gifts, but your voice is a gift. It's a gift to me. I know it's a gift to Kellie. I know it's a gift to your husband and to all of your animals and to all of your clients, everybody that you work with. You are a gift. Thank you. And I really want to thank you for sharing your voice. That was a gift today. Your voice resonates and it matters. Yeah. All of our voices matter.

Cindy Hartzell 1:28:54

I agree.

Kellie 1:28:55

I want to share something real quick. I was - my daughter just went on a trip and she just got back - and so we just got a very first chance to talk right before we sat down to record this episode. And Lily is the one - that's another commonality because you had a filly named Lily who was a wild filly from the wild mare who entrusted her filly with you, which is another story for another day - but Lily's had some pretty incredible wild horse experiences with me with us.

Kellie 1:29:24

Right before this conversation, I was asking her about her trip. And she said, "It's the first time in all of my life (and she's just about to turn 23), that I felt like I was part of a community where I belonged." She's a photographer and she's invested in mentorship. And she went on a mentoring retreat. She has often struggled to find her group of friends, her herd where she fits in. And to hear that as a prelude to this conversation, which was all about the very same thing, was really beautiful.

Kellie 1:30:04

And so I think that brings us full circle to your P-I-G, Cindy. And you shared it with us...

Cindy Hartzell 1:30:12

I did, but I have a new one.

Erin 1:30:14

You can have more than one that's allowed.

Cindy Hartzell 1:30:16

That one just was like, yeah, but it's missing something. So I was gonna celebrate your passion, your intuition, and your grounded presence, but now I'm really excited to hear your P-I-G. My P-I-G is the practice of returning to presence, honoring intuition as sacred guidance, and choosing grace, especially when the path feels uncertain. That's P-I-G to me.

Kellie 1:30:44

Thank you.

Cindy Hartzell 1:30:44

Thank you.

Kellie 1:30:45

Thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing time with us today. This has been extraordinary.

Cindy Hartzell 1:30:50

It's been amazing, ladies. I love you both.

Erin 1:30:53

I love you so much. Like I really just want to come hug you.

Cindy Hartzell 1:30:57

Like I said in our first conversation, when are we gonna like get together and just spend the weekend by the fire? Eating. Oh, and that's another thing. Drinking our favorite drink and eating pokey, which was my nickname growing up.

Erin 1:31:10

What the heck?

Cindy Hartzell 1:31:12

I was always so slow that my mom was turning around and going, Pokey, come on.

Erin 1:31:18

That is hysterical. Because wasn't that Gumby's horse's name?

Cindy Hartzell 1:31:23

Yes. It's packed right now, but sits on my computer as a little miniature Gumby and Pokey because I loved that cartoon.

Kellie 1:31:30

I did too. I totally forgot the horse's name was.

Erin 1:31:33

I just remembered it in this moment. And I have a really shitty memory, so that is saying something.

Kellie 1:31:39

This episode just keeps getting better and better. Alright, everybody, stay tuned for part two. It's coming.

Cindy Hartzell 1:31:48

Yes, absolutely.

Erin 1:31:50

Yeah.

Kellie 1:32:15

Hearing the stories of others helps us create a more meaningful connection to our own. We hope today's conversation offered you insight, encouragement, or even just a moment to pause and reflect on the story you're living and the legacy you're creating. If something in this episode moved you, please consider sharing it with someone you love. A small share can make a big impact. You can also join us on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn and connect further at The P-I-Gpodcast.com. And if you're enjoying this podcast, one of the most meaningful ways you can support us is by leaving a five-star rating, writing a short review, or simply letting us know your thoughts. Your feedback helps us reach others and reminds us why we do this work. Because The P-I-G isn't just a podcast. Thanks for being on this journey with us. Until next time, hogs and kisses everyone.