The Story Behind the Story: One Year Later with Chris Howard

One year ago, we pressed record on The P-I-G Podcast without fully understanding what this journey would ask of us—creatively, relationally, and personally.

In this powerful anniversary episode, we sit down with Chris Howard—producer of The Boxes Project, trusted collaborator, and now chosen family—to reflect on what this past year has truly been.

What started as a documentary exploration of our mother’s legacy became something far deeper: a transformation of our relationship as sisters, a reckoning with old wounds, and a commitment to holding space for stories beyond our own.

Chris shares his perspective on watching our reconnection unfold—especially after initially believing we were already “close & deeply connected.” We talk about creative breakthroughs, hard truths, unexpected healing, and the weight of real-life loss. Over the past year, Chris navigated the passing of both his father-in-law and his mother within months of each other—all while continuing to show up for this work and for us.

Together, we explore:

• What changed most in Year One
• The current state of The Boxes Project
• How storytelling reshaped our relationship
• The impact of chosen family
• What it means to create while grieving
• Why we believe our best episodes are still ahead

This isn’t just a look back. It’s a declaration of what’s possible when Purpose, Intention, and Gratitude guide the work—even when life gets heavy.

Thank you for being part of this first year. Year Two begins now.

Transcript

One Year, One Chosen Family

Kellie 0:02

One year ago, we pressed record on a podcast that was born from a story we were still learning how to tell. What we didn't know then was how much that journey would change us, not just as hosts, but as sisters, storytellers, and human beings.

Erin 0:16

Today's episode marks one year of The P-I-G, and we're sharing it with a person who has been walking beside us from the very beginning. Chris Howard, producer of the Boxes Project, trusted collaborator, honorary therapist, and now, without question, our chosen family.

Kellie 0:32

This past year brought growth, creative breakthroughs, hard conversations, and unexpected healing. It also brought real-life losses, including the passing of Chris's father-in-law and his mother, just months apart, and personal challenges that tested all of us. And yet, through it all, he never wavered in his commitment to the story or to us.

Erin 0:52

This conversation is about what happens when creative work becomes personal transformation, when storytelling demands vulnerability, and when chosen family and unexpected boxes keep showing up again and again.

Kellie 1:06

Welcome to The P-I-G, where we explore life, love, loss, and legacy through real conversations and meaningful stories with purpose, intention, and gratitude. We're Kellie and Erin, sisters, best friends, sometimes polar opposites, but always deeply connected by the life and love of the woman who taught us that courage grows when we're willing to be seen. Our mother, Marsha.

Why Raw Stories Beat Safe Stories

Erin 1:33

So today feels different. One year ago, we launched The P-I-G while standing in the middle of something much bigger than we understood at the time. We thought we were starting a podcast. What we were actually stepping into was a reckoning, a rebuilding, and a relationship that was about to be tested and strengthened in ways we could never have predicted. And the person sitting with us today had a front row seat to all of it. Chris Howard was our very first guest. He's the producer of The Boxes, a story we've been working on for over a year and a half now. And he has seen not just the creative process, but us, the tension, the growth, the grief, the laughter, the late nights, and the hard questions. So today isn't just an anniversary episode. It's a reflection. It's a look back at what we thought we were building and what was actually being built inside of us. So, Chris, welcome back! Let's talk about what this year has really been. You have had a front row seat to all of it. When you look back on this year, I would love to hear what that has actually been like for you, what you've witnessed about the podcast, about the project, and certainly about our relationship. So welcome back. We're so glad to have you back with us today.

Chris Howard 2:57

Hey, I appreciate you guys having me back. And it has been definitely a journey to say the least. And I think when we initially talked and we started talking about this project, I remember kind of laying out that this was going to be a process, that this was not going to be something overnight. This was probably going to take us a good year or two to really get down to really what the story is is really about. And I think the story has really evolved over that time period. I think we've all evolved over that time period. So the story has just continued to blossom into just this really unbelievably layered, complex, uh, complex story. And I say that jokingly because we're always talking about like our analogy is this this onion of layers. Well, we're on like onion number three, like the other two onions are in the market.

Kellie 3:53

They have been de-layered.

Chris Howard 3:54

They have been de-layered.

Erin 3:56

But they are still making us cry.

Chris Howard 3:58

Still making us cry. But that's the beauty of storytelling because you don't know what you don't know. And you know, we've all gone through things in the last year and a half that has really made at least me made me really aware of my own feelings, my own insecurities, my own things that I know that I need to work on. And I think as our relationship has grown, the more comfortable the three of us have become with each other, because we always talk about how there's always something new coming up in this story. And I think that's because the more that we become close, the more I think the comfortableness of letting the guard down and really because this is a very for people that don't know, like this is a vulnerable like story. Like you are stripped down to your core. And for you guys to feel comfortable enough to share that and expose your feelings and your heart in this, you know, I'm I'm just very appreciative of it.

Erin 4:58

Well, we trust you. And you have given us every reason to put our faith and our belief and our trust in you. And it does speak to just the relationship that we have all built and what's been forged here is that we have become family. And when a safe space is created, it does allow for just what you you said, which is for the walls to come down, you know, stuff to get stripped away so that you can get very real and very raw and very authentic with each other. And so it's beautiful for us to hear. I'll speak for myself for sure, how beautiful it is that it really has become a two-way street. There is a give and take in every conversation. And I know that you have challenged us in all the right ways. And it's certainly beautiful to know that we've also created a space for you to wrestle through some of your own thoughts and feelings and emotions and losses. And I'm sure we'll talk about some of that today. But thank you for that. Thank you for believing in us and for trusting us and for helping to create that space so that we can have these real raw conversations and know that you are going to hold us so carefully and so closely. You have been such a good steward of our story and our emotions. And I just feel I feel like everything that we share is so safe because of who you are.

Kellie 6:42

I concur with that. I also think, Erin, I heard you say when you challenge each other, but I've also found myself challenging myself and you and I challenging each other a little bit through this process of discovery and what has been unveiled in all of this has been truly transformative. It's gonna be fun to explore that from our individual and our collective perspectives today. Yeah, I agree.

Trust, Safety, And Being Seen

Chris Howard 7:14

Just kind of piggyback off of what you guys have said, you know, when we talk about projects like this, there's really good projects and there's Hallmark projects, right? Not to say anything's bad about Hallmark projects, right? But they're a little fluffy, they feel good, right? Make you feel all warm and fuzzy on the inside. And that's great. Those are great stories. But they're not necessarily real stories. I watch a lot of TV, I watch a lot of movies, I love, I watch a lot of dramas. And I have to say, some of the best dramas are when people stop pretending and start being real about what it is they're going through, how they feel about themselves, how they feel about their significant others, whatever it is, until you start to really like get really raw with yourself and and other individuals around you, that's the only time that you'll be able to grow, right? Because no one is a mind reader. We can't read your mind, we don't understand what you're going through until we see the absolute rawness of who you are and what you're going through with. That's why I feel like this story is going to resonate with people because there's no place to hide in this story. There's no place for anyone to hide their feelings, their emotions, their shortcomings, whatever it may be. There's no place for anyone to hide. And I think that's going to resonate with a lot of people with this story.

Kellie 8:35

Chris, what part of this journey has surprised you the most? About us, about the story, even about yourself? Because Erin alluded to it, and if you're open to it, we'd love to talk about some of the losses that all of us have carried this year at the same time that we've been working on a story about loss and building a podcast around losses.

Chris Howard 9:02

I think, and we've talked about this before. But I think one of the things that's been the most surprising thing to me is realizing that you guys have not absolutely healed yet, right? For example, when I look at Kellie, I see a little girl who wants to fix everything, who remembers being on a farm, who remembers the closeness of being with her her father, right? And I feel like that has traveled with her throughout her entire adulthood. That's why what happens in this story stings so badly, because at the end of the day, it's a girl, a young girl who wants to have a relationship with her father. Right. And I think that's one of the things that is a big piece of of this story is, and that's again something everyone can relate to, is we just want to be loved by our parents. We want to be that kid, we want to have that kid experience. And so when you don't have that, it's hard to heal from that. And then you end up carrying that throughout the rest of the rest of your life. So I think the biggest thing to me was because when we met, I'm thinking everything is hunky dory. Like, man, these these sisters are like tight. And then as we get into the story, you're like, Oh, wait a minute. So you guys are just kind of y'all still going through this shit.

Kellie 10:21

We haven't talked for almost a year.

Chris Howard 10:25

You're right. I'm like, I'm thinking you guys talk every day, you're texting every day, and it's like, oh yeah, no, we talk so like you know, every couple months, haven't seen each other in a year or whatever. So me coming in, but again, coming in as a person who from the outside looking in and just having that really great initial conversation with you guys, that conversation comes off as if you guys are like super close or super tight, and this is part of our story, but this is not who we are. And then you come to kind of find out it's not just part of your story, this is still very much of who you are and still very much of how it's still affecting you today. So I think that was one of the things that was kind of a revelation for me. I think for me, so I'm gonna try not to get emotional. I think for me, what it it's done for me is okay, be being in this profession, I have to take on, especially with stories like this, I have to take on the responsibility of protecting the story, protecting the individuals in the story because I want to get it right. I feel like I owe that to you and I owe that to your mother to make sure that we get the story right. Obviously, with the loss of my mother this past Christmas, also brought out a lot of um feelings and emotions in myself of a kid who just wants to be with his mother.

Kellie 11:44

Yeah.

Chris Howard 11:45

You know, and so for me, it's just been eye-opening for me to kind of have to admit that it's okay not to be okay. Because in my line of business, if you're taking on other people's personal stories, you almost yourself have to seem like you're okay in order to deal with someone else's story. So there's a pretend on my end that I'm okay because I can't show a crack in my armor, right? To the people whose story I'm trying to tell. So as we talk about pulling back the layers and being real, I have been allowed to be real in front of you guys and show my vulnerabilities and my sensitivities. And that's been very helpful for me to heal. And I'm gonna not cry.

Erin 12:30

But you can, and that's okay.

Chris Howard 12:32

But I can, but that's the beauty of it. If I wanted to, I could.

Loss, Grief, And Permission To Not Be Okay

Kellie 12:35

Yeah. You said something that I think is really poignant, and that is there are so many of us walking around in the world with a facade that everything is okay. Erin and I did that for a really, really, really long time. You know, because we were so committed to being sisters and not being disconnected and in our hearts, loved each other so much, but had gone through some obstacles that were so deep that we didn't know how to handle them. We didn't know how to talk about them, we didn't know how to address them, communicate. T We've often said, we swept the crumbs of our relationship underneath the rug because as long as they were hidden underneath the rug, we didn't have to deal with them or address them or look at them or sweep them up. They could just kind of stay there and be safe, so to speak. Yet what happened was peeling off the facade because we were forced to, because we said yes to going on this journey with you, not only allowed us to pick up the rug and look at all these crumbs, but doing so introduced us to aspects of ourselves and each other, how we grew up, the difference in our age, seven years. It's almost a decade of time. And every single conversation we go back to wow, we never realized how much difference that created, not only in how we experienced the experiences, but how we've carried them into the future, into who we are right now. And I think that that's one of the things that has become part of the mission of what we're trying to do in making the stories that we share on this podcast our own and that of other people and you, Chris. It's part of why we continue to do what we do and stay so committed to it, is because living behind the facade can protect pieces of you, but in the end, that kind of hurts too. It's not authentic, right? And it's certainly not as authentic as we wanted to be with ourselves or with each other. And so even having you openly and honestly talk about some of the experiences that you went through this year, and losing your mom was brutally hard for you.

Erin 15:16

Yeah.

Kellie 15:17

We so appreciate the opportunity to support you through that loss. And the you had other losses this year with Sonia's dad and health scares and all kinds of things, but we are family, and this is what family does with and for each other. And these are how family bonds tighten. When Erin and I talk about roots and ripples, we're literally experiencing it day in and day out with you and with this project.

Chris Howard 15:49

Yeah. And I think the the other the other takeaway from this is some families don't know how to be there for each other, right? And and I kind of use you guys as an example. I use my my own family as an example with my older brother, my you know, my older sister, you know, we're 10 years and 15 years apart, right? Our other brother's 15 years older than I am, my older sister is 10 years older than I am. So I was always viewed as the perfect child, you know, the child that could do no wrong. And it was like, no, I'm I'm the perfect child by default because my other two siblings kind of messed up and you know, earlier in their life. They got it together, but it was a struggle. Because of that age difference, we we didn't spend a lot of time together. I was I was literally a baby. So the relationship that we've had has always been on terms of me as an adult now, right? So we never had that closeness, that true bond until later on in life. But later on in life, we still didn't know how to be there for each other. So it was like if I call my brother and say, Hey, how you doing? It's it's always I'm doing great. But are you really? No, if he calls me and asks me if I'm doing how I'm doing, I'm like, I'm doing great. Am I really? We didn't have that ability to open up to each other to tell each other what was really going on and what was really wrong. And that's only happened in the last, you know, maybe three or four years that we've been able to put down the mask and be open and be real with each other. And I think a lot of families are like that.

Kellie 17:19

Has working on this project with us changed the way you interact with your siblings? And did it change the way you even navigated the losses that you experienced this year?

Chris Howard 17:33

Oh, yeah, 100%. Because, you know, the one thing that we can't get back is time. You know, that's one of my greatest regrets with, you know, the loss of my mom is time that I was too busy or something else was going on. I had to do this, I had to do that. Now all I want is time because I can't get back. So the important thing for me is to make more time with the people that I love and the people that I care about to make sure that I'm asking those questions, even though it may be difficult to hear the answer, even though it may be difficult to ask, I'm going to make sure that I don't leave no stone unturned. I think that's what this project has really helped me be able to deal with. Because if you don't ask, no one will tell you.

Erin 18:17

Nope.

Empathy Versus Sympathy

Chris Howard 18:17

And you won't know until it's too late. And then you wish you wanted to know.

Erin 18:21

Yeah. And I think that what you said too about the reality that we have to be okay not being okay. And we have to be okay realizing that other people are not okay. And where's where's the humanity in that? And how do we get back to really seeing each other through those times?

Kellie 18:44

As you were saying that, Erin, I was thinking of empathy. Empathy is a hard-earned skill, and it is a skill, it is a competency. It is something that we can develop over time, but we have to consciously, purposefully work on empathy. And empathy is not sympathy, right? Sympathy is feeling badly for somebody, or you know, having feelings of support for somebody in difficult times. Empathy is truly going within and seeing an experience, a situation, a moment in time through the lens of perception, like getting inside somebody else's being, into their heart and their head, feeling it, seeing it, experiencing it. And they are very, very different. Yes, they are. And it's one of the things that I have absolutely seen develop in each of us and collectively, all three of us, as we've worked on this project. Wow, that was quite an experience to go through. I sympathize for that versus wow, putting myself into your shoes, Erin, as a little girl who's seven years younger and hearing your memories of a situation and my memories are so different. Chris, in his position, being the storyteller and the producer and the ask of questions, to go deeper and deeper. This has been a real practice for all of us in the development of empathy. And I think that if more families could bring empathy to the forefront and just be okay with the fact that we experience these situations, these experiences, these moments in time differently. And that's okay. And just because I was okay in a certain situation doesn't mean you were, and vice versa.

The Unexpected Box Of Letters

Erin 20:44

Kellie and I were having a conversation, this was several episodes ago, one of our sister chats. And I got really emotional at the end of that because we were talking about how we say all the time that hearing the stories of others helps us create a more meaningful connection to our own, which is such a profound statement. But I have found that even the layers of that are starting to be pulled back. And that hearing Kellie's version of so much of our same experiences, but just seeing it through her eyes and her emotions and how she lived through that experience. Hearing all of that does help me create a more meaningful connection to my own experience of a similar story or the same story. But it also deepens that empathy, right? I have such a deeper appreciation for the experiences that Kellie had that I just never had the wisdom and the words and the strategy to really effectively put myself in her shoes and to really understand that. And so I'm very grateful for all of those things that we've learned how to do. But I also now think that the There is something that hearing my own story is actually helping me to create a more meaningful connection to my own story. And that happens through the storytelling. It's happened through sharing memories and experiences with the two of you, certainly, and with Jason and with everybody. But I feel like every guest that we have on and every conversation we have, we also ultimately end up sharing pieces of ourselves or our own story with our guests. And I feel like every conversation that I have and every time I share even an element of my own story, it's actually helping me create a deeper connection to my own story. And that is very unexpected. It's been a really eye-opening experience to continue to create a deeper connection to the story that I lived, but I just haven't unpacked it in the way that it really needs to be unpacked in order for me to acknowledge certain pieces of my story that need attention in some way, shape, or form. Well, first and foremost, thank you for thinking that I'm a wiser, stronger, more competent adult.

Kellie 24:15

See, that's the cool part. I will take that gift today. Because I have watched you evolve over the last year and a half in a way that I've never watched you evolve. Because, from my perspective, I've always been the big sister interacting with a little sister. And while I will always be seven years older than you, what I have found is that this year and a half, almost two years, Chris, of working on this project with you has allowed Erin and I to really meet each other as grown women who were raised by a grown woman and putting all of that into perspective and ultimately realizing that we are just two women who happen to be sisters navigating the world together. And we're looking in the rearview mirror of our life and our sisterhood and our childhood and our memories, and all of that's awesome. But I was never quite able to release the responsibility or the obligation or the promise of being a big sister instead of just being a sister, a friend, a partner, a collaborator. It's been cool.

Erin 25:33

It has been cool. And I feel like, like Chris said, you don't know what you don't know. I think that when we really got real and when that process started, it gave us permission to just continue to be more real and more vulnerable. But I think that we gave each other a gift. Again, like Chris said, it became okay to not be okay. And I feel like there was an element for me for sure, and I think I speak for both of us, where because we had swept so much under the rug and because there were so much that we just weren't having conversations about, I was just living my life and interacting with you in the way that I was on whatever level I was at the time, purely based off of assumptions. Just had I had so many assumptions about who you were, fair, how you lived your life, what you thought of me. I mean, just all of the things. And it wasn't until we made that commitment to dive into this project and that we knew we were gonna have to have some hard conversations, and we started having those conversations that I realized wow, we had gone through decades of life without having a really accurate understanding of where each other was at.

Kellie 27:00

Yeah.

Erin 27:01

You know, and I think that it's fair to say as we started to unpack some of this, like I felt guilt and shame for some of the things that I've said or done over the past, or ways I handled certain situations in the past where I'm like, oh man, well, if I had known now, or if I had known then what I know now, I would have handled that really differently. Yeah. But I think that that's hopefully an encouragement to ourselves to keep on this path and to keep going and to keep growing and to keep unpacking and uncovering and not going through life with assumptions, right? But to really have the safe space to ask each other the hard questions and to check in with each other. And then also for our listeners, I really hope that somebody is impacted enough by our situation and our story to reach out to their sister or sibling or somebody in their life that's important where they can maybe see and identify. Maybe they don't know the whole story. Maybe they don't actually know what this person is dealing with and going through. And, you know, if you could reach out to somebody, who would you reach out to and why? I don't know if that answers your initial question, but just thoughts and reflections.

Chris Howard 28:22

I think that's exactly what we've been talking about, right? Is you know, again, I hate to say it again, but you don't know what you don't know. And you make assumptions about, I guess everything is okay. I mean, they didn't call and tell me nothing was wrong. You know, we're just taking on the assumption that if something is wrong, they're gonna call and tell me, right? And that's not necessarily the case for whatever reason, whether it's pride, whether it's embarrassment or whatever, or maybe they just don't feel like you've created a safe space for them to be vulnerable around. And you would think that the first place we should feel comfortable is with our family, right? But if we're dealing with our own shit and we're going through our own stuff, the last thing I need to hear about is what you're going through, and because I'm going through something myself, right? But you have to make that time, otherwise we get to that breaking point, and we should never have to get to that breaking point because who knows where that breaking point leads to, right? Does it lead to an addiction? Does it lead to suicide? Does it lead to whatever advice someone may have? We shouldn't wait till we get to that breaking point to share what's going on. I think from my perspective, be it on the outside or looking in, I think that's exactly what happened over the last, you know, 10 plus years with you guys is there was just this assumption that, you know, I know what Kellie is going through, or I know what Erin is going through, or Erin will call me if she really needs me, and Kellie will call me if she really needs to talk. But I think where we are today, that part of it has been restored. Right. There's no longer waiting to see if something is okay. You know, you guys are checking in with each other consistently. And I think because of this project, this project has allowed you guys to see each other. I think Kellie put it perfectly, allowed you to see each other as women, not siblings, but women that are just part of the same story. Yes, sisters by blood, but at this stage in your lives, you guys are women.

Erin 30:24

Yeah.

Chris Howard 30:24

And you see each other as equals because you both can look at each other's lives and be like, wow, and my sister been through some shit. You know? And you both can look at each other like that, and then at the same time, both be proud that you guys have come through it. Probably not come through it together, but it's brought you two together.

Truth, Assumptions, And Family Myths

Kellie 30:45

I had a thought. I have a couple thoughts because I always have lots of thoughts. I think what happened as I look back at the last couple of years retrospectively, there is a big difference between the stories that we tell ourselves and the stories that we tell others, and the stories we carry as truth. As I reflect, Erin, on the slow fade, the slow disconnect that we experienced over so many years. It's very clear to me that I was telling myself stories about the situation, and you were telling yourself stories about the situation or situations going on. And they weren't necessarily true. Yeah. Right. There's the assumptions. Yeah. And yet we had so much brokenness in our family and in our childhood, so much disconnect, so much hatred, so much animosity, so much resentment that we actually allowed very subtly pieces of that to carry forward into our own life and our own relationship. Yeah. Until we were faced with a question. And the question was, are you willing to share your story? And we cared enough to look each other in the eyes and say, if we're going to do this, we're going to do it very authentically and we're going to probably unpack and uncover some things that may be difficult to hear or may force us or challenge us to evaluate our own concept of truth. Yeah. And I unequivocally believe that one of the reasons why we still have quite a bit of brokenness in our family story is there are certain people who refuse to tell the truth. They refuse to face the truth. They refuse to take any kind of ownership or acknowledgement of being responsible for their own choices and actions and behaviors or having any kind of empathy for how their choices shaped our lives. Because here's the one thing I know I do not and will not be a victim of my own reality and my own choices or of anybody else's. Yeah. Like I don't want to sit in that icky place of being a victim. And I think this project, this relationship reset in real time, yeah, build it as you go, has forced me on several occasions to look at my own self in the mirror and say, you know, you were a victim there for a long time.

Erin 33:29

Yeah, same. If Chris had heard the story of the boxes that mom left behind and had a conversation with me, and I was like, Yep, Chris, let's do this. Let's tell this story. But my sister and I don't really chat a lot. So I'll just tell you whatever you need to know and then you run with it. Can you imagine how differently that story would have evolved and unfolded if I had just been like, let me tell you about my sister. I don't want you to hear it from her. I'll tell you everything you need to know. That crazy lady. A year and a half ago, in a really kind of broken place in our relationship, unhealed for sure, disconnected, absolutely. But even in that moment, you know, I knew that I didn't know that it was gonna be this, right? But I I at least had enough forethought to think that I can't tell any kind of story about the boxes or a story about mom without Kellie. And so we did dive into this project together, and vice versa. If Chris had heard the story of the boxes from you and you had been like, yeah, let's dive in, let's do this. Let me tell you about my little sister Erin. She is a pest. But I mean, it's wild to think about the reality that the full story would have never been able to be told if we hadn't found that common ground. Yeah. And at least made that commitment to each other that we were gonna tell the truth and the whole truth. Yeah.

Kellie 35:10

Yeah.

Chris Howard 35:10

It definitely would have been less impactful for sure. And it just would, you know, it would have been a great Hallmark movie, right? But we're aiming for Apple TV or Netflix. It would have been surface level, you know, at best. And that's not where true emotions live at. You know, I I even had to do that with the passing of my mom, because you know, everybody tries to find the right things to say. And especially if it's like relatives or siblings, you know, oh, you know, your mother loved you and you hear all of these great things. But there's also a reality in there that I have to kind of come to grips with. Like, you know, everyone's like, oh, you were such a great son. It's like, okay, I can, I can, I can give you that, but there are things that I regret. You know, obviously it comes down to you know spending more time, but there are things that I re I regret that I have to take ownership of and not sugarcoat just to make myself feel good about the type of son I was or the type of son that people perceive me to be. I can't wear that metal when I know the truth. People will try to label you as that, but it doesn't feel right when you know the truth, and that's something that I've had to kind of come to grips with and accept. You know, I'm sure in my mother's eyes, I was just perfect and all the all the things, but if you really do an inventory of yourself, you'll know the truth. You know, and that's okay. You know, everyone has shortcomings, and I think the biggest thing is you have to give yourself grace to know that you did what you could do, and at the end of the day, it you just have to be okay with that.

Breaking The Facade And Rebuilding

Kellie 36:51

Yeah, you do. It's kind of like our own personal reckoning, right? I think about now only in hindsight, having gone through this experience with the two of you. Erin, what would have happened if something would have happened to one or the other of us and we hadn't found this place of peace with our relationship, with each other, gained understanding and awareness, developed empathy and compassion? I would really suffer to some degree knowing that we had an opportunity that we ultimately wasted. You know, Chris, I look at you having lost your mom just two very short months ago and all the conversations that we've had as we've checked in with each other, and how are you doing? And is everything okay? The gift that you had to spend those last weeks with your mom were really extraordinary. The sacrifices that you made to be by her side, the conversations that you wouldn't have had otherwise because you were tight, because you made it a priority, because you didn't know exactly what was gonna happen or when, but you knew your mom's health was declining and it was declining more rapid than it had in the past. I think while working on this project with the two of you and watching you navigate the last couple of months of your life has helped me shape a level of gratitude for the way I am approaching all of my most meaningful and important relationships right now. And some of those I am perfectly okay with where they're at. I don't have to be in touch every single day. I don't have to unpack like I've unpacked with Erin. Maybe I want to reach out more, maybe I want to connect more, and so I'm taking action steps there or being very purposeful and very intentional in how I go about closing gaps that I want to be closed. But I think we all have to make some decisions while we're still alive about the kind of relationships we want to have while we're still here, while we're still living. You know, what do I want my relationships to be like knowing that every moment of every day is truly a gift?

Erin 40:08

I echo all of that and want to add to it because there are plenty of these in all of our worlds, is that this isn't necessarily a message of you gotta reconcile all your relationships and make sure that you're in good standing with every human being, right? Because I think that it's also important to acknowledge that there are people in our lives, in our families, that it is okay for those relationships to not be okay.

Kellie 40:44

Yeah, right?

Erin 40:45

It's okay for some people to live at arm's length. That is the healthiest place for them to live. But it is doing a real inventory of your circle and what's important and who's important. And as the three of us have certainly learned, right? Sometimes then those most important relationships are the people that we choose as family. And I think that the three of us is a perfect example of that, right? Like Chris, we've chosen you as family. You have chosen us as your sisters, and it's a really beautiful thing. But I I I did want to make sure that you know we acknowledge that it doesn't mean that every relationship in your life has to be mended.

Kellie 41:32

Right. Absolutely.

Erin 41:34

Kellie, what's surprised you the most this past year of or year and a half of working on the project, or certainly in terms of the podcast? What surprised you the most about this work that we've done? Because there are things that we thought we were signing up for. And that looks that looks very different from maybe what we actually signed up for. And so there's been a lot of growth and joy and you know, this whole process. But I know that there are things that have surprised us about this journey.

Time, Regret, And Showing Up

Kellie 42:10

Yeah, you know, our history is very layered and very complex. Who told you that? I think one of the things that has surprised me the most is learning some history that I didn't expect to learn from a different angle or perspective. Okay, I'll give you an example. Erin, just this past weekend, a very unexpected box arrived in the mail. We've shared on a previous episode or two that about four, three and a half, four years ago, I had an overwhelming feeling to reconnect with our mother's brother, our Uncle Bob, who, surprised, going through bins and boxes of pictures and baby books, discovered that he was actually my godfather. Yeah. Right. I have the signed piece of paper that, and I always thought I had different godparents, but they were just stand in, he was the actual godparent. So I didn't even know that at the time that I reached out and connected several years ago. And that connection was fun. Getting to know him and his wife Karen, having some conversations without going too deep, connecting with the only living family member that you and I have left on our maternal side that we know of. Our grandmother had a sister, but we don't have any connection with any of those individuals. So over the last year, Karen died, Bob died, and we were able to connect with our uncle's very best friend. Wayne and it built a relationship with he and his wife, Wendy. Well, Wayne contacted me, you know, about a week ago and said, Hey, I put something in the mail for you. Let me know when you get it. I said, okay. So a few days ago, this box showed up. And inside that box, probably what, 30 or 40 letters from our grandmother to our uncle, many of which mention me, you, our mother, pop, our grandparents, and the feelings and emotions that we had been told about, so we knew third person, but we learned about for the first time ever, firsthand. There were letters in there from our mother to her brother, 1980. The very last letter our mother wrote to her mother, letting her know that she was so sick and their relationship was deeply estranged. And that box and unpacking it and reading all of it with you hijacked my emotions in a way that I wasn't anticipating. You know, there's a lot to learn and unpack in our history. And I am so grateful that we have had all of this time together and with Chris, our brother, who loves us like sisters, that we are family and we're just gonna navigate all of this new learning together. Now it certainly deepens the complexity of the story, but it is through the actual eyes and heart and head of the person who is sharing their feelings, sharing their story, sharing their perception. I'm so grateful it arrived. But at the same time, when you choose to take a deep dive into your family and into your history and do this unpacking, you never know quite what you're gonna get and what to expect. And that part of it has been both exciting, but it it does come rot with its own feelings and emotions. And how do I interpret that? And how is that connected? And is it important or not? And just letting it rest, which is not something that Kellie does often. Kellie doesn't rest as much as she needs to, and so right, my head spins, my heart spins, and my feelings spin.

Erin 46:42

Yeah.

Kellie 46:42

So that that has been a little surprising. At the same time, it's been quite extraordinary.

Erin 46:49

Thank you for sharing that example. It has been extraordinary. And, you know, for me, we've talked a lot these last uh several days about just the concept of receiving another box. Yeah. And just the significance of that. And there was so much in that box and in these letters that were written from our estranged grandmother to our estranged uncle. And there's so much that we didn't know except through stories, information that's been given to us. And so it did solidify a lot of what we've been told.

Kellie 47:27

Mostly from mom through her lens of perception. And she did not have a relationship with her brother or with her mother, yeah, really for most of her life.

Seeing Each Other As Women, Not Roles

Erin 47:36

Exactly. And I think that ties back to what we were talking about, which is then there's all kinds of assumptions made. And I think it's fair now for us to reflect back on this and go, wow, I think that there was a lot of assumptions that mom made about her brother and that he made about her. And I actually don't think they were aligned. And if they had been given the gift of some real raw, transparent conversation, maybe they could like these, like we've done, maybe they could have come together. Maybe their life story would have unfolded differently, right? Impossible to know. I found myself after unboxing all of those letters and reading through everything, feeling so enlightened over the reality of kind of some of those situations. But then I also found myself reflecting on how much I wish I knew the other side of that. Because we have these letters now that Rita wrote to Bob, but we don't have any letters that maybe Bob wrote back to her or that mom wrote to her. While I'm so grateful that we have little pieces of the puzzle that have been filled in, I know that there are so many more pieces to the puzzle that the reality is just that we'll just never know. We won't know. And you have to reconcile that within yourself. You have to be okay with just having the information that you do and be okay with not having the information that you don't.

Kellie 49:12

See? Wise, right? Because it's true. And I know that people have listened to this podcast. I know that people know the story. And for some of them, because they've been honest about it and said, wow, good on you guys doing what you've done. I'm not sure I could do it. I'm not sure I want to do it. And that's okay. Yeah, that is perfectly okay. This was our healing journey, everybody's healing journey, that place to peace with themselves, their relationships, their family has to be their own. Because after all, we are all living, breathing snowflakes.

Erin 49:55

I just hope that people and for myself too. I think that one of the things that this has taught me is I don't want to not do something or not not have a conversation just because I know it's going to be difficult or I know it's going to be uncomfortable, because I have absolutely discovered through this process that I have been challenged and stretched and tested and grown in ways that I never would have before. But that's because we had to do the hard work and we had to have the conversations. If we would have just stayed in the comfort zone and only talked about what felt good, we wouldn't have, I would not have grown to this place if I hadn't been challenged and stretched. Yeah. Just like the muscles. We've talked about this before, right? Like you kind of just like muscle building, right? You got to break it down before you can build it back up stronger. I still hold that analogy close, you know, in this is that we had to be willing to break stuff down and to suffer some pain in order to build back stronger. Not always easy, always worth it.

Kellie 51:04

Yeah, and conversation is what really was the catalyst for breakdown, or at least kind of ripping it open to create the connection of pulling it all back together.

Erin 51:17

Yeah.

Kellie 51:18

Just conversation, honest, vulnerable, raw, real storytelling conversation with no expectations and no real plan other than truth. Yeah. Pretty cool.

Erin 51:33

Yeah, that is pretty cool. Yeah. Therapist Christ, what say you?

Chris Howard 51:37

Well, I was gonna say, and also the the lack of judgment, right? I think because that's one of the our greatest fears is we're gonna be judged or criticized or whatever. I think the fact that you two had the ability to feel comfortable that you weren't going to be judged by the other helped create a safe space. You know, I think for me, this last, you know, year and a half, almost two years, it's just been kind of like just a year of development, revelation, just consistently finding more and more about the story itself. And again, we talked earlier about how it's evolved. I personally feel like I have a better handle on the story now, just because, like Kellie mentioned earlier, like now with this not discovery, but this appearance of this new box filled with letters, right, shines another light on the aspect of the story that up until recently we haven't really had a really good grasp on. I think now we're still putting together the pieces. And that's why stories like this take so long to develop, because it's not just Kellie's story, it's not just Erin's story. I mean, it's it's Pop's story, it's Katie's story, it's it's Alan's story, it's Rita's story, it's Marsha's story, it's Bob's story, you know what I mean? Like it's Scott's story, it's everybody's story that takes place in this. And so when you look at all these moving parts, it just makes for a generational type of family story that I think more people than we realize are going to be able to relate to this type of story. I think there's more families going through exactly this type of story than we realize.

Erin 53:22

Yeah.

Chris Howard 53:22

Because I think most families don't have the ability to be real with each other.

Erin 53:27

I agree.

Chris Howard 53:27

Yeah, that's kind of that's been my my takeaway from this last year of development. And of course, it's taken a lot longer because of you know, schedule and things happening and life be life-ing. And so it's taken us a long time to kind of put it together. But I feel like it was supposed to happen like this because had it happened quickly, there would have been so much we would have missed in putting this story together. Like it would have been that incomplete story that Erin talked about earlier. Because stories take a long time.

Erin 53:57

Has there been a highlight for you, Chris, through this?

Patience, Process, And Crafting The Series

Chris Howard 54:02

There's a couple. My one being my own growth through this, through this process as a producer, as someone who loves stories and loves to develop stories. And then just personally, not just my professional growth, but just personally as my growth as a human being. Yeah, we've talked about empathy before. I like to believe that I I've always been a kid who has always been able to empathize for others. I just I was just was always that kid. But now it's it's I've been able to turn the the mirror or the light on myself and have to empathize for myself and give myself grace and and understand how to be vulnerable and how to let people in. I think the other part of this is has been watching you two guys grow through this entire process. I think that's been, as Kellie talked about earlier, it's like seeing you guys as women on the same path. You know, initially I saw you guys as big sister, little sister. You know, and now I see you guys as independent women grown who've grown and gone through so much, and now you guys are kind of meeting each other at the same level and seeing kind of eye to eye, even though your your shared experience is different because of the age difference, that has not affected what you had to go through as women and your experiences as women. So that's been cool to kind of see you guys from the perception I had in the beginning to be like, oh, okay, now I get it. And now to I've I was able to actually start at ground zero with you guys.

Erin 55:42

Yeah.

Chris Howard 55:43

Right?

Kellie 55:43

Yeah.

Chris Howard 55:44

And not feel like I'm coming in at the tail end of the story because I'm you know, reality, I wasn't. I was actually kind of coming in at the beginning. So that's been awesome to see.

Kellie 55:54

I think that's part of the reason why it's taken so long, too, and ultimately wound up being one of the greatest gifts of this whole project was you thought one thing and immediately discovered something totally different. And then, as you've even said in previous episodes, there's another layer, there's another layer. Our seven-layer cake has turned into a 42-layer cake.

Chris Howard 56:22

Yeah, it's turned into a franchise of seven-layer cakes. But I mean, our conversations were exactly like that. It was like every other conversation, I was like, are they serious? Like, like, wait a minute, wait a minute. We gotta go back. Like, hold on. Now we're talking about Bob and we're talking about so and so. So it's like a lot of people whose names I gotta keep up, and then you hear this story about that person, and you're like, Holy shit, like okay, now now I'm taking notes, gotta get everything's gotta be transcribed, uh Zoom AI. You know, usually people have a team of people working on something like this. It's just little old me and Josh. But I'm internally grateful because these type of stories don't come along like this very often. You know, usually it's someone read a book in a bookstore long time ago, thought it would be a great movie, right? But the book had been out for like 30 years. So these type of stories don't come around that often. So I'm incredibly grateful and blessed to be able to be able to tell it.

Kellie 57:27

Well, we wouldn't be working on the project with anybody else.

Chris Howard 57:30

That's right.

Kellie 57:31

So speaking of stories, is there anything on the hot seat for today? Does Chris have any questions looming for the sisters?

Chris Howard 57:40

Oh man, maybe one. And and we've kind of touched on it a little bit. With this story, how difficult has it been for you guys to really, really go there? Because there are parts of this story that it's it's traumatic, right? How difficult has it been for you guys to really put yourself in that space to really want to talk about it? Because again, and and and maybe the viewers or and the listeners, I'm sure they follow the podcast, but I'm telling you, you still don't know half of the story. And because I do, I I'll be honest, like, I don't know if I could have talked about a lot of the stuff that you guys opened up about. You know what I mean? Like, I I probably would have kept on that facade for some of them. When I hear you guys talk about some of those things, I can still hear the hurt, the pain, the loss, the memory, the grief. Like, like it comes, it comes out, you know what I'm saying? Especially between you two because the relationship that exists between you two, it's you know, outside of pop and Katie and kind of the supporting cast, I mean, to have to get real with your sister, to be vulnerable when you guys didn't have that opportunity, or not that you didn't have the opportunity, you didn't you weren't taking advantage of the opportunity to now say, hey, listen, like I'm going to be completely honest. I'm gonna tell you how I felt. This is where I was at, this is what I thought. How difficult was that for you guys? Because we kind of, for the first part, we kind of danced around that part for about a good couple months. I don't know if you you guys remember that. You guys were kind of like, and I almost felt like it was because you guys felt like you were getting at a good place that you didn't want to rock the boat. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't want to tell Kellie this, or I don't want to tell Erin this because maybe that will fracture our relationship. Or so that's kind of what I wanted to know. That's my hot seat question.

Hot Seat: How Hard Was Honesty

Erin 59:45

That's a good one. You know, for me, I think the reality is that to your point, of it took time for us to really, even though we went into it saying we're gonna, you know, talk about this tough stuff when you're actually faced with the reality of a tough question and there's a real pull to get really honest and really vulnerable. I think for me, the harsh reality of that is that it just took time for me to feel like I could be very honest and vulnerable and have a safe place to land. And I think that just that piece of it for me was the consequence of being the little sister by seven years and living in Kellie's shadow for so much of my life was that justified or not, I did have a lot of just preconceived notions and ideas of how I was gonna be looked at or thought of, or if I was gonna be judged for my actions or attitudes or behaviors or anything like that. I'd spent most of my life telling Kellie, like, I don't want you to mother me. I just want you to be my sister. And I feel like it wasn't until we really embarked on this journey that we really got to the heart of what that actually meant and what that actually looked like. And so for me, it was can I share X, Y, and Z? Can I share this thought or this memory or this opinion without judgment? Can I share it and be met with understanding, or even if it's not of understanding, at least just compassion and a recognition of it was okay for me to feel the way that I felt. Or not even that it was okay, but just that my feelings were valid because they were mine for no other reason, right? Justified or not. You know, we jumped into this project with you in the midst of a broken relationship. And so it's wild now, being a year and a half in to look back on those early days and actually remember that there was a time where we would meet on Zoom and I had to be prompted or remind myself that it was okay for me to share. And there were so many tears, you know, because I didn't I always felt like Kellie was a safe place for me, but I also often felt like even though it was a safety net, there was still an element of either judgment or her jumping in to try to fix, you know, because she's a fixer. And there were there have been so many times in the past, and certainly as we've started on this project where I didn't need anybody to be part of a solution. Like I just needed to say what I needed to say or share what was on my heart or in my mind, and just be met with love and acceptance more than anything. And so I know that's a really long-winded answer to your question, but it's so beautiful now to know that every single time we get on the phone or get on a Zoom, whether it's the three of us or just Kellie and I, that I never question the safety of that space ever. And that is not the place that I was in when we started a year and a half ago. I feel like I would tiptoe around many topics or many things because I just didn't really want to say it or I wasn't quite sure how it was gonna be met. And now I just feel like I can be unapologetically myself, and I can bring the good, the bad, and the ugly. And there is literally not a safer space for me to be in than the space that I'm in with Kellie.

Kellie 1:04:39

There's a lot I could say about that. I'm gonna answer your question, Chris, and that is I really felt when all of this started that I had absolutely nothing to lose because the relationship with my sister wasn't where I wanted it to be. I felt like I was holding so much back. I felt like there were things I couldn't share or shouldn't share because of the promises that I had made, the caretaking, mothering role I had always been in. And so even though it was hard, yes, not holding back and tapping into true feelings and emotions paved a way to honesty that led to hope, that initiated healing and resulted in happiness. And I too, Erin, feel like there's nothing that we can't say to each other, and sometimes still today, because we know our behavioral styles, we know what drives and motivates us. We're doing the hard coaching work right now, in addition to this project with Chris, in addition. To the podcast, to take our relationship to a new level every day, that we can both say things to Chris openly and honestly that are important to his work as the producer of this project and this story, whatever it ends up being, but that needs to be shared because it's good for you and I. It may be hard in the moment. There may be a wave that I have to absorb or you have to absorb, but we don't hold back because we know it's healthy. Yeah. And to be seen and understood really for the first time ever, with full transparency and raw vulnerability, I know for me has been an extraordinary gift. And I have watched you blossom in ways that I have never seen you blossom in almost five decades of being your big sister.

Erin 1:07:01

Thank you for that. I feel like for the first time, I can really be myself, that I'm not trying to be somebody that I'm not. I'm not trying to fit into a mold that somebody else wants me to fit into. And so I think that part of the work that you and I have done together in this relationship reset also comes along with individual work for both of us. And so I feel like a huge part of the reason that I'm able to show up the way that I am with you and for you is because I have the deepest understanding of myself that I've ever had with an accompanying thought of it is okay to be me, right? That I don't have to, I don't have to change. And so when I can show up authentically as myself in a room, in a relationship, in a conversation, then that conversation changes. It's wild how cool a conversation becomes when you can just be yourself. And so I really appreciate you know the acknowledgement of that blossoming, but I feel like it's less for me about like blossoming and more just a great revealing.

Kellie 1:08:32

Yeah.

Erin 1:08:32

You know, it's like the sun is shining on like who I am. It's just illuminated that, and that that's good enough. That's okay.

Safety Without Judgment

Kellie 1:08:41

That's beautiful. When I say blossoming, I see this beautiful flower, right? With all of its petals bright and shiny and open to the sun, which you just described. And all of the magnificent beauty of that is seen. I love the fact that in our conversations today, you don't always love everything that I say. You don't always love every idea I bring to the table. You don't always love the strategy or design or concepts, and vice versa. But there's no judgment and condemnation about that. It's just taking the time to celebrate the differences and say, okay, well, given the differences, how can we find balance and alignment and create something that feels good for both of us? Yeah. And I'm talking specifically right about working on the podcast project, but this would never be possible ever, ever, ever in a million years without Chris, the work that we committed to doing with you. And so the fact that we're, you know, we took seven, eight, nine months of all that work and then said, Hey, we have a brilliant idea. Let's start a podcast without having any idea what we were getting into or how both exciting and challenging it was going to be. And so the fact that we are here one year later celebrating the one-year anniversary or the one-year birthday of the podcast project. Thank you, Chris, because we never, ever, ever could have done this without you.

Chris Howard 1:10:26

And my work here is done!

Kellie 1:10:28

Oh no, it's not.

Chris Howard 1:10:29

Yeah, I know exactly. You know, I think it was just the match that got us started. Yeah. You know, I think there was always a a willingness there. It was just more about what was going to be the vehicle that was going to get you there. Yeah. Right. And it was this project that got us here. And and of course, I would say a little bit of help from beyond, right? That got us here also. And I'm I'm just incredibly, you know, grateful for the opportunity. You know, through this, you know, I got two new sisters. Sometimes their sisters, depending on when they're getting their hair done or nails done. But this project has been just such eye-opening and just it's just an amazing story that I know once we get it to as a television series or as a feature film, I think it is going to be one of the best projects that come out that year, just because it's going to really shed a light on family dynamics, whether it's mother, daughter, sisters, stepbrothers and sisters, stepfathers and daughters, and how we define who we call family. And just family is messy. But if you're willing to work through it, you can unmess it. You can make it not so messy. But it's just, I think it's just about survival and getting to a good place. It's never too late until it is. Right. And maybe this is that project that someone will see, like, you know, let me call my brother, let me call my sister, you know, let me check on them. You know, it's been too long. It was so stupid why we stopped talking. And it and again, it could be friends, it could be whoever. And I think that's this is the type of project that will either soften some hearts or keep those hearts that are hardened, hardened, right? So that's why I love I love this story, and that's why I'm so committed to it. And you know, I just think the world of you guys, and I think your mother was just an unbelievable woman to do what she did and couldn't be more proud of the work that we're doing.

Kellie 1:12:38

Same ditto. Chris, do you have anything that you would like to share in closing or about the status of where we're at with the project or just anything on your heart?

Chris Howard 1:12:53

Yeah, listen, I think we're we're in a good place. I think again, because of moving parts, like we said earlier, life is taking us some time to kind of put every put a lot of it together. But if it would have happened sooner, that's why I said earlier, we would have missed a lot of stuff. I'm happy with the way the synopsis is coming. Just based off of some of the uh people that we've talked to, just based off of some of the cold pitches we've talked to people about, they're like, we can't wait to see it. Like, hurry up, finish it so you can send it over to us so we can read it. Matter of fact, my friend who's working with uh Ron Howard just called me because he wants to take a look at it. So it's one of those stories where you measure twice and you cut once. You know, you you want it to be as impactful as possible because there's a lot of stories that are out there, a lot of great stories that are out there, but we want to make sure that we separate ourselves from every other story that's out there, and that's why okay with us taking our time to make sure that we get it right.

Erin 1:13:50

That's a good lesson in patience.

Chris Howard 1:13:52

Yeah, that's right. Don't want to rush it because it's again, it's just such a great story, and I wanted to present it. I just want it to be absolutely right.

Erin 1:14:02

Yeah.

Chris Howard 1:14:02

So, and I feel like we're we're in that place. So we're moving forward, good progress. We have a lot of we still have a lot of work to do. We still have some people to contact, right? We got some Zoom calls to finish up, we have some character stuff we need to finish up, but other than that, I'd say we're about 80% there.

Kellie 1:14:19

It's getting exciting. Is patience something you're learning, sister? Easy. The way that you said that.

Chris Howard 1:14:27

The way she looked, I was like, well, she's not talking to me.

Kellie 1:14:32

Oh, that's funny.

Erin 1:14:34

I always need lessons in patience.

Kellie 1:14:35

Don't we all? I'm not pointing fingers. Oh, goodness. Well, Chris, we cannot imagine being on this journey with anybody other than you. It has been so fun to navigate all of these conversations, to navigate history and all the paths and roads that have been a part of our life journey and our family's journey. And to be a part of now your family's journey. That has been an extraordinary and unexpected gift of connecting with you, getting to know you, sharing so much time together on a week in and week out basis for this long. You not only get to know yourself better, but you get to know the people that you take the journey with. And it's been extraordinary.

Erin 1:15:29

It really has.

Chris Howard 1:15:30

I agree. I couldn't agree more.

Gratitude, Growth, And What’s Next

Erin 1:15:32

The other thing, too, that I don't want this conversation to end without acknowledging is the fact that, yes, we are at exactly our one-year mark of the podcast. And for me, there is no question that working on the Boxes project with you has absolutely transformed the way I believe that we show up as hosts of this podcast. And so when I think back to a year ago and that episode with you, Chris, that is still our most streamed episode, and as our first guest on the podcast. And now one year later, to be here and I think about every guest that we've had, every conversation that we've had, the growth that we've experienced with the podcast, and the growth that I've experienced as a co-host of a podcast. I just feel like almost all of the credit needs to be given to how we've grown and what we've learned through working on the Boxes project. I feel like it's changed the way that we show up in conversation with each other on a daily basis. We've talked so much about that and what it's done to transform our relationship as sisters. But as part of that, it has definitely then impacted the way that I show up in other conversations in my life and for the other people in my life. And it has definitely impacted the way that I show up for and hold space for our guests and every story that we are trusted with. And so I really want to thank you for being part of my growth journey in this space because even though maybe indirect, it's been it's been extraordinarily impactful.

Chris Howard 1:17:21

You are welcome. And I love you guys.

Erin 1:17:23

Love you too. Love you so much.

Kellie 1:17:55

We hope today's conversation offered you insight, encouragement, or even just a moment to pause and reflect on the story you're living and the legacy you're creating.

Erin 1:18:04

If something in this episode moved you, please consider sharing it with someone you love. A small share can make a big impact. You can also join us on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn and connect further at thePIGpodcast.com.

Kellie 1:18:19

And if you're enjoying this podcast, one of the most meaningful ways you can support us is by leaving a five-star rating, writing a short review, or simply letting us know your thoughts. Your feedback helps us reach others and reminds us why we do this work.

Erin 1:18:34

Because The P-I-G isn't just a podcast, it's a place to remember that even in the midst of grief, life goes on, resilience matters, and love never leaves. Thanks for being on this journey with us. Until next time, hogs and kisses everyone.