Where Do We Go Now? Processing the BBB as Chinese Americans

What does it mean to be Chinese American in 2025, when a sweeping new federal law - HR 1, also known as the “Big Beautiful Bill”—fundamentally changes immigration, enforcement, and who feels like they belong?

NEW! 📝 Transcript and Chinese translation now available on Substack:

 🆕📝 訪談文字稿與中文翻譯現已上架 Substack：  

https://substack.com/home/post/p-168431500

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In this episode, we speak first with Jose Ng, Immigrant Rights Program Manager at Chinese for Affirmative Action (CAA), who breaks down how the BBB impacts mixed-status families, raises application fees, and heightens fear, especially among San Francisco’s estimated 10,000 undocumented Chinese immigrants and their extended communities.

If you or someone you know needs support, CAA offers free immigration consultations and legal referrals:
📞 Immigration Hotline: (415) 761-3222
🌐 www.caasf.org/immigrant-rights
📱 WeChat: CAASF1969

Then we turn to Cliff Yee, Vice President of Programs and Leadership Development at Coro Northern California and a lifelong resident of San Francisco’s Richmond District. Cliff shares how his family’s story—from his grandfather’s arrival through Angel Island to the same house he grew up in—grounds his efforts to reclaim and reimagine Chinese American identity in a neighborhood too often overlooked, despite its deep immigrant roots.

Together, we explore what it means to navigate belonging, memory, and resilience in real time - as the ground shifts beneath our feet.

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The Sunset Connection — exploring the stories and histories that connect us.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Immigration Enforcement Crisis
• 8:13 Jose Ng on Immigrant Rights Work
• 14:51 Providing Free Immigration Legal Services
• 19:24 Community Fear and Confusion
• 26:13 The Big Beautiful Bill Impact
• 33:26 Cliff Yee's Chinese American Experience
• 40:28 Richmond District's Changing Demographics

Transcript

Jessica Ho - Host (節目主持人)

00:00

Hey everyone, welcome back to Sunset Connection. My name is Jessica Ho, and I'm your host today. And today's episode was recorded just days after the signing of one of the most sweeping federal bills in recent history, what some are calling the Big Beautiful Bill. It's over 800 pages long and touches nearly every corner of government, from housing to healthcare to climate change and, yes, even immigration. The bill signals a sharp extension of immigration enforcement. It raises fees significantly for asylum seekers, work permits, and green card applicants. It pours billions of dollars into the immigration system as a way to fund ICE and also the immigration courts as a way to prop up the court system. So it's quite an unusual time.

大家好，歡迎回到《日落連線》。我叫潔西卡何，是今天的主持人。今天的節目錄製於近代史上影響最深遠的聯邦法案之一簽署幾天后，有人稱之為“大美法案”。該法案長達800多頁，幾乎涉及政府的各個層面，從住房到醫療，再到氣候變化，甚至移民問題。該法案標誌著移民執法力度的大幅擴大。它大幅提高了庇護尋求者、工作許可和綠卡申請者的費用。它向移民系統投入了數十億美元，以資助ICE和移民法庭，從而支撐司法系統。所以，這是一個相當不尋常的時期。

00:53

All of this is unfolding at a moment when quiet crackdowns and delayed renewals are already taking shape. It's already been an issue across the country, but it also affects us here in San Francisco. And if that weren't enough, we're living through some really surreal times. Case in point, I don't know if you guys have heard of Alligator Alcatraz, but that's not something I made up. It's real. It's a nickname for a new immigration detention center built on a former airport deep in the Florida Everglades. Definitely wild times.

這一切發生之際，靜悄悄的打擊和延期的續約已經開始顯現。這早已成為全國性的問題，也影響到我們舊金山人。更何況，我們正經歷著一段超現實的時期。舉個例子，我不知道你們是否聽過「鱷魚惡魔島」（Alligator Alcatraz），但這不是我杜撰的。它是真實存在的。這是佛羅裡達大沼澤地深處一座舊機場上新建的移民拘留中心的暱稱。這絕對是一段瘋狂的時期。

01:26

Meanwhile, reports have surfaced that ICE are detaining people in MacArthur Park in LA and it's just a neighborhood I lived in. You know where families picnic and you know kids play and I used to run there all the time and now they're just ICE agents just arresting people, disappearing people there. It's just really unreal and it's super close to home. To make sense of what's happening and what's at stake, I'm excited to welcome Jose Ng, Immigrant Rights Program Manager at Chinese Reverb Action. Jose leads both direct services and policy advocacy, supporting immigrant families through legal guidance, Know Your Rights workshops, and citywide campaigns. He also serves on San Francisco's Immigrant Rights Commission, helping bridge the experiences of our neighbors with the decisions made at City Hall. So without further ado, let's get into it. All right, Jose, thank you for being here.

同時，有報道稱，ICE 正在洛杉磯麥克阿瑟公園拘留人員。那隻是我住的一個街區。你知道，那裡是家庭野餐、孩子們玩耍的地方，我以前經常去那裡跑步，但現在，ICE 特工只是在那裡逮捕人，讓人消失。這真是太不可思議了，而且離我很近。為了更好地理解正在發生的事情和利害關係，我很高興歡迎華人反響行動的移民權利項目經理 Jose Ng。 Jose 領導直接服務和政策倡導，透過法律指導、了解你的權利研討會和全市範圍的活動來支持移民家庭。他還在舊金山移民權利委員會任職，幫助將我們鄰居的經歷與市政廳的決定聯繫起來。好了，不用多說，讓我們開始吧。好的，Jose，謝謝你來到這裡。

Jose Ng - Guest (節目嘉賓)

02:18

Hi Jessica. Thank you for inviting me. I'm glad to be here with your audience.

你好，潔西卡。謝謝你的邀請。很高興能和你的聽眾一起來。

Jessica Ho - Host

02:22

Can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself, where you grew up, and what brought you to this type of work?

您能否先向我們簡單介紹一下自己，您在哪裡長大，以及是什麼促使您從事這項工作的？

Jose Ng - Guest

02:28

Yeah, I grew up in Hong Kong and came here really in 2015, almost 10 years ago, right now. First to Chicago, where I stayed for my grad program, and after that, I decided to come to the Bay Area. You know, partly it's because my experience there, you know, as I work with a lot of immigrants in Chicago when I was a grad student mostly you know people leaving their home country to sit asylum here. All you know the people who had to flee war in the middle east if you remember, like 2016, 2017, that was at the height of the Middle Eastern refugee crisis that's kind of exposed me to a lot of these issues from more global lenses and that's how I also, you know myself as an immigrant in this country and also, you know, but you know, on a more privileged side and you know, that's how I started to learn more about it and verse myself in the immigration world. So, yeah, that's, you know, a short history.

是的，我在香港長大，2015年才來到這裡，差不多十年了。我先去了芝加哥，在那裡讀研究生，之後決定來灣區。部分原因是我在那裡的經歷，我讀研究所的時候在芝加哥接觸過很多移民，他們大多離開祖國來這裡尋求庇護。你們都知道，這些人都逃離了中東的戰亂，如果你還記得的話，2016年、2017年正是中東難民危機最嚴重的時候，那次危機讓我從更全球化的視角接觸到了很多問題。我也是這麼看待自己，作為一個移民，在這個國家，而且，你知道，我比較有優勢，就這樣我開始更多地了解移民，並熟悉移民的世界。所以，是的，這就是一段簡短的歷史。

Jessica Ho - Host

03:28

So where are you living now in San Francisco?

那麼您現在住在舊金山哪裡？

Jose Ng - Guest

03:31

Right now, I live very close to City Hall. You're familiar with the downtown area, so it's a very vibrant neighborhood as well. You know, but not as nice as the Sunset area.

我現在住的地方離市政廳很近。你對市中心很熟悉，所以那也是一個充滿活力的社區。不過，不如日落區。

Jessica Ho - Host

03:40

Yeah, thank you. Can you tell us, for our listeners who may not know, what Chinese is for Affirmative Action, and what its history is?

是的，謝謝。對於可能不太了解「平權行動」的聽眾，您能否介紹一下中文裡「平權行動」的意思以及它的歷史？

Jose Ng - Guest

03:49

Absolutely. So, for those who haven't heard about us: CAA, Chinese for Affirmative Action. We were founded in 1969. That was during the Civil Rights era. Part of their mission is to protect the civil and political rights of our Chinese American community. Also, our goal is to advance multiracial democracy in the US. Basically, what we do here is to fight for systematic change that protects immigrant rights, promotes our language diversity, and also remedies any injustice embedded in our system.

當然。對於還沒聽過我們的人：CAA，即華人權益促進會。我們成立於1969年，正值民權運動時期。他們的使命之一是保護我們華裔美國人社區的公民權利和政治權利。此外，我們的目標是推動美國的多種族民主。基本上，我們在這裡所做的是爭取系統性變革，以保護移民權利，促進我們的語言多樣性，並糾正我們體制中根深蒂固的任何不公正。

Jessica Ho - Host

04:20

And how does your team support immigrant rights on a day-to-day basis?

您的團隊日常如何支持移民權利？

Jose Ng - Guest

04:25

Yes, so the team that we have here at CAA, the immigrant rights team. We do a lot of work. To be honest, I'm not bragging on that team, but definitely from providing direct services to all the way to advocate on the policy front on behalf of the immigrant community. We provide free immigration legal services to the community, particularly limited English proficient, chinese speaking immigrants in our city. A lot of them are low-income, and they have difficulty navigating the US immigration system, and we help them.

是的，華促會的團隊，也就是移民權利團隊，我們做了很多工作。說實話，我並不是吹噓這個團隊，但從提供直接服務到代表移民群體在政策層面進行倡導，我們確實做了大量工作。我們為社區提供免費的移民法律服務，特別是我們城市裡英語能力有限、會說中文的移民。他們中的許多人都是低收入者，在美國移民體系中遇到困難，我們會幫助他們。

04:58

For example - I'll give you an example. We help people if they have been here long enough and qualify, and we want people to become a naturalized citizen. So that's why you know what we do here at CAA as well. We help people to apply for citizenship for free. For others, you know if they might still want some time to think about it or help them remain under lawful permanent residency status by you know, applying for renewing their green card. For others, you know if they have questions about - you know - how they might be able to adjust their immigration status. Here we provide consultation to them. We have been doing a lot of Know Your Rights sessions. You know, Know Your Rights in the sense that you know we inform our community about what's going on on the national level, especially on immigrations, and how you can protect yourself regardless of your immigration status. We have hit almost 40 neural rights workshops so far this year.

舉個例子，如果有人在美國居住時間夠長，並且符合條件，我們會幫助他們成為歸化公民。所以，你們也知道我們在華人援助協會（CAA）的工作內容。我們免費幫助人們申請公民身分。對於其他人，如果他們可能還需要一些時間考慮，或者透過申請更新綠卡來維持合法永久居留權，我們會幫助他們申請。對於其他人，如果他們對如何調整移民身分有疑問，我們會為他們提供諮詢。我們一直在舉辦很多「了解你的權利」的講座。 「了解你的權利」是指我們向社區通報國家層級正在發生的事情，尤其是在移民方面，以及如何保護自己，無論你的移民身分為何。今年到目前為止，我們已經舉辦了近40場神經權研討會。

Jessica Ho - Host

05:56

And if someone is interested in attending one of these workshops, how would they find out about them?

如果有人有興趣參加其中一個研討會，他們如何了解這些研討會？

Jose Ng - Guest

06:02

Yeah, good question. So we have so many teams at CAA, and you know, the information we share through different platforms. You know we have our own WeChat platforms because a lot of Chinese immigrants in our city they're very active on WeChat. So our team, we actually share a lot of information over WeChat, including our community events. We do have our own monthly immigrant rights workshop, which is being held at our program site and our organizations in Chinatown. They can just go to our office, and they can connect with us through our social media account as well.

是的，問得好。華促會有很多團隊，我們透過不同的平台分享資訊。我們有自己的微信平台，因為我們城市裡的許多華人移民在微信上非常活躍。我們的團隊實際上在微信上分享了很多訊息，包括我們的社區活動。我們每月都會舉辦移民權利研討會，在我們的計畫現場和唐人街的組織機構舉行。他們可以來我們的辦公室，也可以透過我們的社群媒體帳號與我們聯絡。

Jessica Ho - Host

06:35

And so, if someone were having trouble with their immigration status today and they're hearing this, how would they get a hold of you? How could they get help with changing their legal status? Do they just call your office, or is there a special process that they have to go through?

那麼，如果有人今天在移民身份方面遇到麻煩，並且聽到了這些消息，他們該如何聯繫你們？他們該如何獲得幫助來改變他們的合法身分？他們可以直接打電話給你們的辦公室嗎？還是需要經過一些特殊的程序？

Jose Ng - Guest

06:49

They can just call our office, and they can also call our immigration hotline.

他們可以直接致電我們的辦公室，也可以致電我們的移民專線。

Jessica Ho - Host

06:53

Okay. So, speaking of people who are asking for help right now, what are you hearing from your clients?
好的。那麼，說到現在正在尋求幫助的人，您從客戶那裡聽到了什麼？

Jose Ng - Guest

07:00

Yeah, we have been hearing a lot of different inquiries from our community, a lot of fear, a lot of mixed information. So I think right now, what we have been hearing a lot from the community is confusion and fear. You know, a lot of fear from the community about making international travel plans if you're going back to China to visit the family. I think these are the things that we hear, that you know what things you have to prepare beforehand if you make international travel and some other things. You know, if they're undocumented, if they live in a mixed immigration status family, they have a lot of fear that the government will come after you, especially when [you’re hearing] anti-immigrant aggressive tone and rhetoric you know from our leaders.

是的，我們聽到了來自社區的各種詢問，很多是恐懼，很多是混雜的訊息。所以我認為現在，我們從社區聽到的最多的是困惑和恐懼。你知道，如果你要回中國探親，社區裡很多人對制定國際旅行計畫感到擔憂。我想這些就是我們聽到的，你知道如果你要進行國際旅行，你需要提前準備什麼，以及其他一些事情。你知道，如果他們沒有證件，如果他們生活在一個混合移民身份的家庭中，他們非常擔心政府會找上門來，尤其是當你聽到我們領導人發表反移民的咄咄逼人的語氣和言論的時候。

Jessica Ho - Host

07:45

I mean, are people just staying at home? Is it like the pandemic? How is it affecting people's day-to-day life?

我的意思是，人們只是待在家裡嗎？這和疫情一樣嗎？它如何影響人們的日常生活？

Jose Ng -Guest

07:50

As a community organization, we are trying to get the information out accurately because the worst thing that we don't want to see is people who are afraid of going to work, people who are afraid of sending the kids to school. So, we have been doing a lot of messaging, you know, trying to calm down the community. At least you know we haven't seen any massive immigration raids or immigration crackdown in our city, because a lot of people when they look at the TV you know when they're those operations being conducted in LA. Especially during the first couple of months, people kept calling the San Francisco Rapid Immigrant Response Hotline asking about hey, is there any immigration raids in the city? Is it safe to go out? Right now? We haven't seen any massive scale like that being conducted in San Francisco, and it's still kind of safe for you to go back to your normal life.

作為一個社區組織，我們努力準確地傳播訊息，因為我們最不想看到的就是人們害怕去上班，害怕送孩子去上學。所以，我們一直在做大量的宣傳工作，試圖讓社區平靜下來。至少你知道，我們城市沒有發生任何大規模的移民突襲或打擊行動，因為很多人看電視就知道洛杉磯正在進行這些行動。尤其是在最初的幾個月裡，人們不斷撥打舊金山快速移民反應專線，詢問市府有移民突襲嗎？現在出門安全嗎？我們還沒有看到舊金山發生任何大規模的行動，你仍然可以安全地恢復正常生活。

Jessica Ho - Host

08:46

Well, that's on a case-by-case, day-by-day basis, right?

嗯，這是根據具體情況、每天進行處理，對嗎？

Jose Ng - Guest

08:51

Yeah, unfortunately, I guess this is the reality that we're living in right now, with, you know, those new immigrants.

是的，不幸的是，我想這就是我們現在生活的現實，你知道，有那些新移民。

Jessica Ho - Host

08:59

I mean, it's affecting people's decisions to travel internationally, it's affecting people's decisions to even go outside, and it sounds like people are just living kind of confused and in fear, which is, I think, a very reasonable thing to feel when you're hearing a lot of different things, especially with policies.

我的意思是，它影響著人們出國旅行的決定，它甚至影響著人們外出的決定，聽起來人們只是生活在困惑和恐懼之中，我認為，當你聽到很多不同的事情時，尤其是政策方面的事情，這種感覺是非常合理的。

Jose Ng - Guest

09:17

You know, any immigration policy, right now, a day is also too long, because things keep changing on a daily basis. That's also making it way more confusing and complicated for our community.

你知道，現在任何移民政策，一天的時間都太長了，因為情況每天都在改變。這也讓我們的社區變得更加混亂和複雜。

Jessica Ho - Host

09:27

So I think it's not just English literacy, but it's also policy and law literacy, and I think that is in itself a barrier for a lot of people because they don't really have a good understanding of what's happening. And, honestly, it took me maybe eight hours to go through the big beautiful bill, because that's like 100 pages an hour. But like, yeah, like you know, it takes time and it takes effort to really comprehend everything that's happening in DC and in the courts and how it will apply to people on the ground. So have you seen a significant difference in the last couple weeks or months? Are they seeing that this is happening to us now, and is it causing more alarm?

所以我認為這不僅是英語素養的問題，也是政策和法律素養的問題。我認為這本身就是很多人的障礙，因為他們對正在發生的事情並不十分了解。說實話，我大概花了八個小時才看完這份冗長而精美的法案，因為這意味著我每小時要讀100頁。但是，是的，你知道，要真正理解華盛頓和法庭上發生的一切，以及這些法律將如何應用於基層民眾，需要時間和精力。那麼，在過去幾週或幾個月裡，你有沒有看到顯著的變化？他們是否意識到這種情況正在發生在我們身上，也因此更加警覺？

Jose Ng - Guest

10:09

Yeah, I totally understand that. I feel a lot of people, you know, when they think about the immigration issue, their Chinese faces haven't been really showing up or popping up enough. But in fact, I mean our community is not omitted from all these issues. You know, think about immigration rate. You know how many people in our community actually are undocumented. I'll give you a number in San Francisco. In San Francisco, we have about 10,000 undocumented Chinese immigrants. Wow, 10,000. Yeah, we never think about that. Right, you know, it's 10,000. Actually, that's a lot, that's quite a significant number.

是的，我完全理解。我覺得很多人在考慮移民問題時，他們的華裔面孔並沒有真正露面，或者說沒有足夠地出現。但事實上，我的意思是，我們的社群並沒有被排除在所有這些問題之外。想想移民率。你知道我們社區裡有多少人是無證移民嗎？我給你一個舊金山的數字。在舊金山，我們大約有1萬名無證中國移民。哇，1萬。是的，我們從來沒有想過這個數字。對，你知道，是1萬。實際上，這是一個很大的數字，一個相當可觀的數字。

10:46

So, this issue hasn't been talked about enough. I feel like in our community, that's always kind of like a social stigma that, oh, I don't want to talk about it, even with my friends, but actually there might be people around your circle, your friend, your family, sometimes they might be undocumented, but they just don't want to disclose it publicly. We do have undocumented in our community and these are the people that I work with on a daily basis in our city. They could be a mom, you know, with a family of four, you know three to four, you know, US citizens who are all grown up, but she just doesn't have a pathway to adjust their status. They could be someone who's been living in our city for more than 30 years, but still don't have a pathway.

所以，這個問題還沒有得到足夠的討論。我覺得在我們社區，這一直是一種社會恥辱，我不想談論它，即使是在朋友面前。但實際上，你身邊可能有人，你的朋友，你的家人，有時他們可能是無證移民，只是他們不想公開披露。我們社區裡確實有一些無證移民，這些人是我每天在我們城市接觸的人。他們可能是一位母親，你知道，一家三、四個孩子，你知道，她們都是美國公民，都已成年，但她就是沒有調整身分的途徑。他們也可能是在我們城市生活了30多年，卻仍然沒有途徑的人。

11:32

You know, so a lot of us, you know, we don't quite get it. You know, why don't you, you know, find a way. You know why don't you adjust your standards. But sometimes, you know, it's just frustrating because immigration system is very broken. If you make one mistake, that mistake might prevent you from finding a way to recognize your status here. Also, I want to remind our audience some of you might remember a couple of weeks ago our Secretary of State, Michael Rubio, just came out saying that you know, oh all, right, right now we really want to look into all the Chinese international students and we want to aggressively revoke their immigration status and the student status here.

你知道，我們很多人對此都不太理解。你知道，為什麼你不想辦法呢？你知道，為什麼你不調整一下你的標準呢？但有時候，你知道，這真的很令人沮喪，因為移民系統非常不完美。如果你犯了一個錯誤，這個錯誤可能會阻止你找到辦法承認你在美國的身份。另外，我想提醒各位聽眾，你們中的一些人可能還記得，幾週前，我們的國務卿邁克爾·盧比奧剛剛公開表示，現在我們真的要調查所有中國留學生，我們要堅決撤銷他們的移民身份和學生身份。

Jessica Ho - Host

12:11

In the one big beautiful bill. It adds billions of dollars for immigration enforcement and processing, right? So that tells me that the courts are going to start really cranking out these immigration court hearings, and so that's one thing I think we're, you know, probably going to see moving forward now that this bill is in law. And another thing that I'm really kind of watching is the increase in fees for everything, like even fees that didn't exist before, and so earlier you were saying that it's free for people to apply for citizenship or change status through CAA. So I'm wondering- does CAA already cover these costs, and if so, are you going to continue covering these costs when they've increased significantly? Like one of the fees increased from $50 to $5,000. One didn't exist, and now it's like $100. It's just, it's like being penalized for trying to become a citizen.

這項法案本身就很美。它為移民執法和處理增加了數十億美元的資金，對吧？這說明法院將開始真正加大移民法庭聽證會的力度，所以我認為，隨著這項法案正式生效，我們很可能會繼續看到這種情況的發生。我非常關注的另一件事是所有費用的上漲，甚至包括一些以前不存在的費用。你之前說，透過公民身份法案（CAA）申請公民身份或更改身分是免費的。所以我想知道，CAA是否已經承擔了這些費用？如果是，在費用大幅上漲的情況下，你們還會繼續承擔這些費用嗎？例如，其中一項費用從50美元漲到了5,000美元。還有一項費用以前沒有，現在變成100美元了。這就像是因為試圖成為公民而受到懲罰。

Jose Ng - Guest

13:09

I think I can go into more detail regarding the application fee itself, but this is really a terrible bill due to its consequences. It's going to, you know, going to, you know, bump up, you know, immigration enforcement, even at a way more larger scale. Because in the bill, you know, as you're saying, it's, you know, allocating 170 billion dollars for immigration enforcement. Think about a figure of 170 billion for immigration enforcement, it means you know, they are going to double down on the budget for immigration and customs enforcement agencies. So basically, they are going to appropriate almost 30 billion tourist eyes for them to enforce immigration law inside the us. So that's actually three times, you know, higher than the current budget that they have. So, you know, just think about that in your mind and picture that, especially a city like San Francisco with a huge immigrant population. Just think about, you know there's always, you know, ICE agents anywhere, everywhere, trying to knock on the door and you know tear apart a family. That's the worst thing that we want to see. But even worse, it's at the expenses of all the other federal programs. But they gotta take out all the money that are supposed to go into, you know, yeah, the Medicare and the SNAP program, the CHIP program and those are all had a huge impact on our community. So that's you know it's a terrible bill.

我想我可以更詳細地談談申請費本身，但就其後果而言，這項法案確實很糟糕。你知道，它將會加強移民執法力度，甚至規模更大。因為正如你所說，法案中撥款1700億美元用於移民執法。想想看，1700億美元用於移民執法，這意味著他們將加倍移民和海關執法機構的預算。也就是說，他們將撥出近300億遊客的資金，用於在美國境內執行移民法。這實際上是他們目前預算的三倍。所以，想像一下，尤其是在舊金山這樣一個移民人口眾多的城市。想像一下，到處都有ICE特工試圖敲門，拆散一個家庭。這是我們最不想看到的。更糟的是，這筆錢是以犧牲所有其他聯邦計畫為代價的。他們卻把所有本該用於醫療保險（Medicare）、補充營養援助計劃（SNAP）、兒童健康保險計劃（CHIP）的資金都拿走了，這些計劃都對我們的社區產生了巨大的影響。所以，你知道，這是一份糟糕的法案。

14:33

And then back to your question early on about the immigration fees. Um, you know the fee itself right now it's already very high, it's about $725. It's such a huge investment already and that would, if more increase on the fee would just discourage more people from applying. I know that a lot of people actually gone for CAA. They are low-income family so we try to wait for them to apply for free waiver. So a lot of them, you know they end up they don't have to pay any to become a citizen. So that's a good thing. You know. We just have to keep defending those benefits that are available for our community right now.

然後回到你之前關於移民費用的問題。嗯，你知道現在的費用本身已經很高了，大約725美元。這已經是一筆巨大的投資，如果費用進一步增加，只會讓更多人望而卻步。我知道很多人實際上選擇了CAA。他們來自低收入家庭，所以我們盡量等他們申請免費豁免。所以，你知道，他們中的許多人最終無需支付任何費用即可成為公民。所以這是一件好事。你知道。我們只需要繼續捍衛我們社區目前享有的福利。

Jessica Ho - Host

15:15

Given this new reality, what are you thinking in terms of, you know next steps? What are you preparing for? What are you looking for? How should we be? What should we do? What is the situation right now?

鑑於這一新現實，您下一步打算做什麼？您在準備什麼？您在尋找什麼？我們該怎麼做？我們該做什麼？目前的情況如何？

Jose Ng - Guest

15:32

Yes, I know it's too much bad news already. I think, something that we are, you know, another, a lot of other immigrant rights organizations that have been doing. It's one, it's more, trying our best, you know, to stop all the bad policy. You know, I know a lot of organizations that are filing lawsuits against the government, trying to block it from happening. And other organizations, I think, are trying to give out quality information and resources to our community.

是的，我知道壞消息已經太多了。我想，我們和其他很多移民權利組織也一直在做同樣的事情。一方面，我們竭盡全力阻止所有糟糕的政策。我知道很多組織正在對政府提起訴訟，試圖阻止這種情況發生。我認為，其他組織也在努力為我們的社區提供高品質的資訊和資源。

16:04

Well, right now, our message to the community has always been like that, you know, if you're eligible, try to be, you know, a natural citizen, try to apply for naturalization as soon as possible. At this local city fund, we are trying to ask for more funding from the City to prioritize immigration, especially right now, as you all know, immigrant communities are being attacked by the federal government. So a lot of those advocacies actually have gone into budget advocacy for our local immigrant community organizations. like CAA, our city-wide network, San Francisco Immigrant Legal Education Network, and some other citywide partners as well. We've been trying to advocate for more funding so we can provide more services, especially right now. It's more needed than ever.

嗯，目前，我們向社區傳達的訊息一直是這樣的：如果你符合條件，就努力成為自然公民，盡快申請入籍。在這個地方城市基金中，我們正努力向市政府請求更多資金，以優先處理移民問題，尤其是在目前，眾所周知，移民社區正受到聯邦政府的攻擊。因此，這些倡議很多實際上都用於我們當地移民社區組織的預算倡導，例如CAA、我們的全市網絡、舊金山移民法律教育網絡以及其他一些全市合作夥伴。我們一直在努力爭取更多資金，以便我們能夠提供更多服務，尤其是在現在。這比以往任何時候都更需要。

Jessica Ho - Host

16:54

Absolutely. I don't know how to access information about the latest news of what's going on about immigration. If there's raids, like if there's what's what's true, what's not like there's, is there like a platform that a CAA has that we can kind of rely on, just like how, when COVID-19 kind of happened, we have a network of like people who were keeping up to date with all the changes and really communicating that out to the rest of us?

當然。我不知道如何取得移民的最新資訊。如果有突擊檢查，例如哪些是真的，哪些是假的，CAA 有沒有一個我們可以依賴的平台？就像新冠疫情爆發時，我們有一個由人組成的網絡，他們隨時了解所有變化，並真正地將這些變化傳達給我們其他人？

Jose Ng - Guest

17:25

Yes, we do have our presence, as I said earlier, through CAA. We have been very active, especially on WeChat spaces. We also run a Chinese language fact-checking website. and you can also find some resources on our CAA website as well. We do provide updated information out there, especially you know - fact sheet one-pagers, trying to break down all the policy and the impact of it. So I can share our you know website information here, and then you can share with your audience as well.

是的，正如我之前所說，我們確實透過華促會（CAA）保持聯繫。我們一直都非常活躍，尤其是在微信上。我們也經營一個中文事實查核網站。您也可以在我們的CAA網站上找到一些資源。我們確實會提供最新的信息，尤其是單頁事實說明書，力求將所有政策及其影響分解開來。這樣我就可以在這裡分享我們網站的訊息，您也可以分享給您的受眾。

Jessica Ho - Host

17:57

Yeah, no, that would be great. I know it's a really tough time and it's a tough topic to kind of engage on. So thank you for talking to me about it, because I think these issues they're happening in real time. At least for me, one of the things that I really like to do is be prepared and know what's going to happen, and I feel like the game has changed and I think the new rules are being written as we speak, and so in this new system, you know, I wonder what is going to be the way that we can fight back.

是的，不，那太好了。我知道這是一個非常艱難的時期，這是一個很難討論的話題。所以謝謝你跟我談論這個話題，因為我認為這些問題正在即時發生。至少對我來說，我真正喜歡做的事情之一就是做好準備，了解將會發生什麼。我覺得遊戲規則已經改變，新的規則正在我們說話的同時被制定出來，所以在這個新的體系下，你知道，我想知道我們該如何反擊。

18:30

Right, is it just surviving? You know, at this point it’s like the first kind of mode. And then what can we do for each other in terms of just being kind, you know, to one another, when there's a world that is not kind to people like us? And I think maybe just that is a good start, you know, and like what Dr Russell Jung said in his podcast episode, like, just have conversations, just ask your parents, ask your kids, like, continue the dialogue with people in your community, check in on people, see if they're okay, kind of be together emotionally and physically if possible, but for each other, when things are so tough, there's not really any answers that I have that I can see right now, and maybe the answers will come in the future. In the meantime, I think all we have are each other.

對，只是生存嗎？你知道，目前這就像第一種模式。那麼，當這個世界對我們這樣的人並不友善時，我們能為彼此做些什麼，例如友善地對待彼此？我認為這可能是一個好的開始，就像羅素·榮格博士在他的播客節目中說的那樣，比如進行對話，問問你的父母，問問你的孩子，繼續與社區裡的人對話，關心他們，看看他們是否安好，如果可能的話，在情感上和身體上與他們在一起。但對彼此來說，當事情如此艱難時，我現在真的看不到任何答案，也許答案會在未來出現。同時，我認為我們擁有的只有彼此。

Jose Ng - Guest

19:22

Absolutely. I like the idea that you are talking about. You know how we can treat each other as just human beings. Support each other as much as we can. I know you know if someone is more fortunate, you can donate your money, you can donate your time. Definitely, a lot of community-based organizations would love to have your money and support as well. So I encourage people to talk to one another especially, I feel like, about one another's immigration history. So it's been always part of our history, so I think we just have to keep talking about it until one day that everyone is being liberated and free.

當然。我喜歡你談論的想法。你知道我們應該如何以人為本，互相支持。我知道如果有人比較幸運，你可以捐錢，捐時間。當然，很多社區組織也希望得到你的捐款和支持。所以我鼓勵人們互相交流，尤其是談論彼此的移民歷史。這一直是我們歷史的一部分，所以我認為我們必須繼續談論它，直到有一天每個人都獲得解放和自由。

Jessica Ho - Host

19:59

Yeah, thank you. Thanks so much, Jose. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me about this. Thank you.

是的，謝謝你。非常感謝，何塞。非常感謝你抽出時間和我討論這件事。謝謝。

Jose Ng - Guest

20:06

Thank you for having me. Thank you. Okay, well, thanks so much.

謝謝你們的邀請。謝謝。好的，非常感謝。

Jessica Ho - Host

20:10

All right, now that we've heard from Jose about the legal and policy dimensions of immigration enforcement, both in the past, now, and potentially in the future, let's shift to the places, our neighborhoods, that shape how we belong. For Chinese Americans, life and culture aren't just a backdrop. They're embedded in the built environment and the histories and cultures of people who live there. You see it in the Chinese characters on storefronts, the language is spoken on the street, and the way that communities layer and blend over time. Take the Richmond district. It's just across the park, not very far from the Sunset District. Ruble is considered the west side, but I would say that we're - you know - there are differences between the Sunset and Richmond. But the Richmond has been called a second Chinatown for decades by those who've lived it, who know it, and even without formal recognition. And so, to help us unpack all of this, I'm delighted to welcome Cliff Yee. Born and raised in Richmond, Cliff has over 20 years of experience in leadership, development, and community organizing. He currently serves as vice president of programs at CORO, Northern California. He is deeply involved in civic life in the neighborhood, most recently helping lead Richmond's first-ever Lunar New Year parade and serving on the board of the Richmond Neighborhood Center. Cliff brings both personal history and institutional insight to questions of place, identity, and political belonging in 2025. So, Cliff! Welcome!

好的，既然我們已經聽了Jose關於移民執法的法律和政策層面的介紹，包括過去、現在以及未來可能出現的情況，那麼讓我們轉向那些塑造我們歸屬感的地方，我們的社區。對華裔美國人來說，生活和文化不僅僅是一個背景。它們植根於建築環境以及居住在那裡的人們的歷史和文化之中。你可以從店面的漢字、街上的語言以及社區隨著時間的推移而層層遞進和融合的方式中看到這一點。以里士滿區為例。它就在公園對面，離日落區不遠。 Ruble被認為是西區，但我想說，日落區和里士滿區之間是有區別的。幾十年來，里士滿一直被那些在那裡生活過、了解它的人稱為第二個唐人街，即使他們沒有正式承認。因此，為了幫助我們解讀這一切，我很高興歡迎Cliff Yee。克里夫在里士滿出生長大，在領導、發展和社區組織方面擁有超過20年的經驗。他目前擔任北加州社區發展中心（CORO）的專案副總裁。他積極參與社區的公民生活，最近協助組織了里士滿有史以來的首屆農曆新年遊行，並擔任里士滿社區中心的董事會成員。克里夫將個人經驗和機構見解融入2025年的地點、認同和政治歸屬等議題。歡迎克里夫！

Cliff Yee- Guest

21:33

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

非常感謝！感謝你們的邀請。

Jessica Ho - Host

21:34

Let's begin with your family's journey.

讓我們從您家人的旅程開始。

Cliff Yee - Guest

21:37

Yeah, I mean, it's a story that's very near and dear to my heart. I grew up not knowing a whole lot about it probably until college when I got one of those assignments to an Asian American Studies course to sort of learn about your family's history, and it was then that I really started to unpack and learn more about my family's history, particularly on my father's side, where my grandfather was born in China, in Zhongshan, and came over when he was 15 in like 1925. And at that time, he ended up being detained at Angel Island and stayed there as a 15-year-old trying to come into San Francisco. And thankfully, when he finally settled in San Francisco it was in Chinatown where he worked odds and ends jobs, ended up being in a restaurant, ended up being like a barback. He and my family at the time they all grew up in a flat in San Francisco.

是的，這個故事對我來說意義非凡，也讓我感同身受。我小時候對它了解不多，直到大學時，我接到一門亞裔美國人研究課程的作業，學習家族歷史。從那時起，我才真正開始深入了解我的家族歷史，尤其是父親那邊的歷史。我的祖父出生在中國中山，大約在1925年，他15歲的時候移民到了美國。當時，他被拘留在天使島，並在那裡度過了15歲，試圖前往舊金山。幸運的是，他最終在舊金山唐人街定居，在那裡他打過零工，在餐廳工作過，也做過酒吧服務員。他和我的家人當時都在舊金山的一間公寓長大。

22:50

So as prices were starting to increase, they knew or something told them to let's move out to the west side, let's move out to the Richmond district. So they moved in the 60s and thankfully, I grew up and get to still live in the house that's been in my family since then, and so now, being in a multi-generational household where my dad lives with us, I have two kids that are 11 and 7.

所以當房價開始上漲時，他們知道了，或者說是某種因素讓他們決定搬到西區，搬到里士滿區。所以他們在60年代搬了過來。謝天謝地，我長大了，現在仍然住在我家那棟房子裡。現在，我住在一個幾代同堂的家庭裡，爸爸和我們住在一起，我有兩個孩子，一個11歲，一個7歲。

23:14

It's something that's both really familiar and also different as things kind of change in the community, and so that's my dad's side, and for my mom's side, they are ethnic Chinese, born in Burma and also came over here and also back in the day, and so that is sort of the combination of who I am and kind of what brings me here, and I've been able to, over my time being in the Richmond District, start to find ways to give back and model what it means to give back, and I've been very fortunate to do that both professionally and personally.

這是既熟悉又不同的一件事，因為社區中的情況發生了變化，所以我父親那邊和我母親那邊的人都是華裔，出生在緬甸，也來過這裡，所以這就是我的性格以及我來這裡的原因，在里士滿區工作的這段時間裡，我開始尋找回饋社會的方式，並以身作則，我很幸運能夠在職業和個人生活中做到這一點。

Jessica Ho - Host

23:54

That's beautiful. What do you see as different now, like how is it different in Chinatown versus Richmond versus Sunset?

太美了。你覺得現在有什麼不同嗎？例如唐人街、里士滿和日落大道有什麼不同？

Cliff Yee - Guest

24:01

I start with kind of like my upbringing. So, growing up in the Richmond district, the only times that I went to Chinatown were probably to bring one family association meals and then to bring my grandma, to like the Chinese hospital, because that's where she still got care regularly. That's where, like, I would either go take the bus with her when I could finally drive, I would drive her over there, and then we would do a little bit of grocery shopping, but for the most part, that was sort of the interaction with Chinatown. It would be maybe a couple of times a month, whereas here in Richmond we still had access to a lot of the food, the markets, the sense of community with other folks that lived in the Richmond.

先從我的成長經歷說起。我在里士滿長大，去唐人街的次數可能只有一次，就是帶家人一起吃飯，或者帶奶奶去唐人街醫院，因為她仍然在那裡定期接受治療。在那裡，我要么在終於可以開車的時候陪她坐公車，要么開車送她過去，然後我們會買點東西。但大多數情況下，這就是我和唐人街的互動。大概一個月去幾次，而在里士滿，我們仍然可以吃到很多美食，逛逛市場，感受和里士滿其他居民的社區氛圍。

And then, as I see it now, since the pandemic, there has been an increase in the investment or ties to Chinatown, and I think a lot of that comes from early on in the pandemic, where a lot of the businesses were hurting, where there was a lot of Asian hate to be honest. The community, though they were resilient, there was still opportunities to increase that resilience for Chinatown, and so what I have seen happen over the past few years are friends of mine who live in the Richmond have either started organizations or have actively helped out in how they contribute and give back to Chinatown, while still remaining community ties here in the Richmond, but they see sort of the importance of really wanting to invest back in Chinatown and to be able to. You know, I wouldn't go as far as saying they're doing it to like model how to give back, but you know, for those that are families, it's so important to have that tie and that connection. So, I see that happening as a trend.

現在我看到，自疫情爆發以來，對唐人街的投資或聯繫有所增加，我認為這在很大程度上源於疫情初期，當時很多企業都受到了衝擊，說實話，當時有很多仇視亞裔的情緒。儘管唐人街社區已經具備韌性，但仍有機會增強其韌性。過去幾年，我看到住在列治文的朋友們要么創辦了組織，要么積極地為唐人街做出貢獻和回饋，同時仍然保持著與列治文社區的聯繫。他們意識到真心希望回饋唐人街並且能做到的重要性。我不能說他們這樣做是為了樹立回饋社會的榜樣，但對於那些家庭來說，擁有這種聯繫和紐帶非常重要。所以，我認為這是一種趨勢。

26:01

I think when I see what's happening in the Richmond district, there's a growing aging population, for Chinese seniors have to figure out what to do, whether or not they want to stay in the neighborhood or move out, because people that are either my age or younger, so their children or grandchildren, are at a place where they've either identified I cannot stay here, I cannot afford this or they want to be somewhere else, and so what I have seen in the neighborhood is how would you say it?

我認為，當我看到里士滿地區的情況時，就會發現老齡人口正在不斷增長，中國的老年人必須想清楚自己該做什麼，是想留在這個社區還是搬出去，因為和我同齡或比我小的人，以及他們的孩子或孫輩，要么認定自己不能留在這裡，要么負擔不起，要么他們想去其他地方，所以我在這個社區看到的情況是，你會怎麼說？

26:35

Like there's a lot of like for sale signs. I know there are still some Asian elders in the community, but I also feel like there's less and less, and so that's an interesting shift. One of the other things that I have been fortunate to be able to do in a volunteer role was for our elementary school. I was their PTO co-chair. So that meant - over several years, I have tried to be a liaison between the school community and the families. One thing that I've seen over the past few years, particularly at our school in the Richmond district, is that there's less Chinese families. There's less Chinese students coming into the kindergarten grade level, and so that gives me a data point about what might be happening with the demographics of the Richmond District.

有很多類似的待售標誌。我知道社區裡仍然有一些亞裔老人，但我感覺他們越來越少了，這是一個有趣的轉變。我很幸運能夠以志工的身份做的另一件事是為我們小學服務。我是他們的家長教師會共同主席。這意味著——在過去幾年裡，我一直努力成為學校社區和家庭之間的聯絡人。過去幾年我看到的一件事，尤其是在我們列治文學區的學校，就是華人家庭越來越少了。進入幼兒園的中國學生越來越少了，這讓我了解到列治文學區的人口結構可能正在發生的變化。

Jessica Ho - Host

27:22

Interesting. I mean, there's a market dynamic, I think, that's in play. You know, if you came out here, and you bought a house in the 80s, you know, you could have bought it for $100,000 and now you can sell it for $1.5 million. So there's also that yeah, right? So I mean there's a cashing out, which is like a benefit, right? But then, where do they go after?

有意思。我的意思是，我認為市場動態正在發揮作用。你知道，如果你來這裡，在80年代買了一套房子，你知道，你本來可以花10萬美元買下它，現在你可以以150萬美元的價格賣掉它。所以還有這個，對吧？我的意思是，有一個套現機制，這就像是一種福利，對吧？但是，之後他們會去哪裡呢？

Cliff Yee - Guest

27:40

Yeah, yeah. And that's where I don't quite have that. You know, I don't have that insight, other than to know that the information that I am observing is that there is a change in the demographics, acknowledging that there is an aging population in Richmond that is making these decisions right, folks who are homeowners and selling. When I think about my own family, as I shared, like you know, I have family that has moved towards the peninsula, towards the South Bay, but that's one of the shifts, yeah, my family has a very similar pattern.

是的，是的。而這正是我不太了解的地方。你知道，我沒有這方面的洞察力，除了知道我觀察到的信息是人口結構正在發生變化，承認里士滿的人口老化正在做出正確的決定，那些擁有房產和出售房產的人。當我想到我自己的家庭時，就像我分享的那樣，我的家人搬到了半島，搬到了南灣，但這是其中一種轉變，是的，我的家庭也有非常相似的模式。

Jessica Ho - Host

28:17

My family has a very similar pattern, and I've known a lot of friends and people who have shared very similar patterns, where their family started out in Chinatown or they came, and they moved out to Richmond. They've also spread out to the Sunset and down the Bay. So then the demographics of Richmond are also shifting now to everyone, and so it is a great place to live, a great place to raise your family, and I think that's a great thing to have more families. But, yeah, it's something to recognize that it is a shift.

我的家庭模式非常相似，我也認識很多朋友和其他人，他們有的最初在唐人街，有的後來搬到里士滿。後來他們也搬到了日落區和海灣地區。所以，里士滿的人口結構現在也正在向所有人轉變，所以它是一個宜居的好地方，一個養育家庭的好地方，我認為擁有更多家庭是一件好事。但是，是的，承認這種轉變是值得的。

Cliff Yee - Guest

28:59

Yeah, and one of the great things also that I've happened over the past few years in the Richmond and I think maybe part of this is due to the pandemic and coming out of the pandemic, more folks wanting to connect as a community. And so we've seen more night markets and street festivals and, you know, having a few years of that I think was really building towards the opportunity to have the first ever, you know, lunar New Year festival in the Richmond. Of course, we all know the famous one in the city that happens every year, and to be able to have one here in my backyard in the Richmond district and to be able to be the first ever Grand Marshal is both very humbling and a very exciting place for the community to be at, a place where we can celebrate ourselves here?

是的，過去幾年我在里士滿也經歷了一些很棒的事情，我想這可能部分是由於疫情，疫情過後，更多的人想要團結起來，成為一個社區。所以我們看到了更多的夜市和街頭節日，你知道，這些年來，我認為這些活動真的為在里士滿舉辦第一個農曆新年慶典創造了機會。當然，我們都知道這個每年都會在城裡舉行的著名慶典，能夠在我家後院的里士滿區舉辦這樣的慶典，並成為有史以來第一個“大元帥”，這既讓我感到謙卑，也讓我感到非常興奮，因為社區裡有一個地方可以讓我們在這裡慶祝我們自己。

Jessica Ho - Host

29:52

Yeah, tell me about the parade.

是的，跟我講講遊行的情況吧。

Cliff Yee - Guest

29:54

Yeah, yeah, it was. I mean I have to give a lot of shout out to the Richmond Neighborhood Center. I am fortunate to be their Board Chair. Shout-out to the staff for all the organizing that goes into that and to really get buy-in from the merchants, to get volunteers from local faith-based organizations and other you know, and other youth serving organizations like CYC. Everyone is just excited to see the performers, to have the stage, to have the elected officials, including the mayor, come out and really mark this moment and the opportunity. I remember, after the parade, eating with family at one of our favorite family spots, Little Henry's, and I think even at like 9.30 at night, people were still like just walking the streets and just abuzz and you saw people of all ages and big smiles on their face. It really was a remarkable moment for the community. When I say the community, I'm thinking of both the Chinese community and the Richmond District community.

是的，是的，確實如此。我得特別感謝里士滿社區中心。我很榮幸能擔任他們的董事會主席。也要感謝所有工作人員為此所做的組織工作，以及他們如何真正獲得商家的支持，如何從當地宗教組織和其他組織，以及像CYC這樣的青年服務組織招募志工。每個人都很興奮，期待看到表演者，期待舞台，期待包括市長在內的民選官員前來，共同紀念這一時刻和機會。我記得，遊行結束後，我們和家人在我們最喜歡的家庭餐廳之一Little Henry's吃飯。我記得，即使到了晚上9點半，人們仍然像往常一樣在街上行走，熙熙攘攘，你可以看到各個年齡段的人，臉上都洋溢著燦爛的笑容。這對社區來說真的是一個非凡的時刻。我說的社區，指的是華人社區和里士滿地區的社區。

Jessica Ho - Host

30:59

As the Richmond District becomes more diverse and, you know, brings in more people of different backgrounds. I think it is very beautiful. I feel like that's what America, in my eyes, was meant to be is that we all contribute our past and legacy equally, but it creates something even better.

隨著里士滿區變得更加多元化，你知道，它吸引了更多來自不同背景的人。我認為這非常美好。我覺得這才是我眼中的美國，我們每個人都平等地貢獻自己的過去和遺產，但這創造了更美好的事物。

Cliff Yee - Guest

31:20

I feel like one of the number one things that is celebrated is the diversity. The diversity of people, cultures, languages. The food represents that, and even as we think about some of the newer businesses moving in, there's this really interesting contrast of like cultural tradition, of like legacy businesses with some of the newer businesses that are like right next door, and so it becomes just a really energizing like stroll when you go down Clement Street and just see how things are changing over time.

我覺得最值得慶祝的事情之一就是多樣性。人群、文化和語言的多樣性。食物就體現了這一點。即使我們考慮到一些新進駐的企業，文化傳統、傳統企業與一些近在咫尺的新企業之間也形成了非常有趣的對比。所以，當你漫步在克萊門特街，看到這裡的一切隨著時間的推移而變化，就會變得充滿活力。

Jessica Ho - Host

32:00

Right, yeah, yeah, thank you for sharing your story. I really wanted to kind of turn our attention now to kind of what's happening in real time, right? No matter how much it feels bad in the moment, I don't know, for me, whenever I look back, I'm like, oh yeah, those were the days, right, and it feels comforting because we know the ending, and so it's less scary. But when we look to the future, we don't know how things will end. We don't know how things will turn out right, yeah, but I think humans are smart enough to realize when big things happen, there are repercussions, even though we don't understand what those repercussions are. If there's a comet that comes down, and you know that could be really bad, yes, and there could be a lot of unintended consequences. Similarly, this big beautiful bill is kind of like a comet that just like came on and like struck us, and we're not really sure what the aftermath is, but we know it came, yeah.

好的，是的，謝謝你分享你的故事。我現在真的很想把我們的注意力轉移到即時發生的事情上，對吧？不管當時感覺有多糟糕，對我來說，每當我回首往事，我都會想，哦，是的，那些日子真是太美好了，對吧？而且感覺很安慰，因為我們知道結局，所以沒那麼害怕。但當我們展望未來時，我們不知道事情會如何結束。我們不知道事情最終會如何好轉，是的，但我認為人類足夠聰明，能夠意識到大事發生時會產生後果，即使我們並不理解這些後果是什麼。如果有一顆彗星墜落，你知道那可能真的很糟糕，是的，可能會有很多意想不到的後果。同樣，這張美麗的大鈔就像一顆彗星，它突然出現並撞擊了我們，我們不確定後果是什麼，但我們知道它來了，是的。

Cliff Yee - Guest

32:55

Yeah, oh, my gosh, that's where I like taking a deep breath as we shift gears and talk about this a little bit. But often times, I say this in my leadership development work, actions have consequences, right, and so what are the consequences - both known and unknown? And we're not sure what's going to happen right now. We just know communities are going to be hurting more. I feel like families and friends are going to be impacted.

是的，哦，我的天哪，當我們換個話題稍微聊聊這個問題的時候，我喜歡深吸一口氣。但在我的領導力發展工作中，我常這麼說，行動會產生後果，對吧？那麼這些後果是什麼呢——已知的和未知的？我們現在不確定會發生什麼。我們只知道社區會受到更大的傷害。我覺得家人和朋友都會受到影響。

33:29

I have some hope and I say this with that kind of cadence because I may be trying to really wish it and will it - that is - hope that I've seen family and friends speak out and show up when they have, when they have not done that before, and so that's really saying something different about this moment. When I have relatives texting me, photos of them at rallies or sharing with me how they feel. And they have not done that - ever. And I'm talking about like in 40 years. Well, I didn't have a phone for 40 years, but you know like but they've just never shared that sort of angst and frustration and concern with me. And these are like older relatives, and so that says something really remarkable about this moment - around what they're seeing and experiencing - to be able to take action at this point in time.

我抱有希望，而且我之所以如此積極地說出來，是因為我可能真的希望並且願意這樣做——也就是說，我希望看到家人和朋友站出來發聲，挺身而出，而他們以前從未這樣做過，所以這真的說明了此刻的不同之處。親戚們給我發短信，發他們在集會上的照片，或與我分享他們的感受。而他們從來沒有這樣做過。我說的是40年來。好吧，40年來我都沒有手機，但他們從來沒有跟我分享過那種焦慮、沮喪和擔憂。他們就像年長的親戚，所以這說明了此刻的非凡之處——圍繞著他們所看到和經歷的一切——能夠在這個時間點採取行動。

Jessica Ho - Host

34:23

Yeah, that is inspiring. You know I'll share something personal about my own family. They haven't hit that point yet. I'm waiting for that moment. I can't wait until I get a text from my parents saying like I see it, I see how this is impacting the people you care about, Jessica, but us too, and now I want to give back, because I see that what you're doing is helping. Yeah, that's I mean maybe like a selfish dream of mine, but you know, that's like that would be so beautiful because I would also be so inspired and I'm hoping that will come soon. But I also don't want that to come soon because that means that these are so bad, right? So it's like kind of like a double edged sword.

是的，這很鼓舞人心。你知道，我會分享一些關於我家人的私人事情。他們還沒達到那個程度。我正在等待那一刻的到來。我迫不及待地想收到父母的短信，說我看到了，我看到了這件事對你關心的人的影響，傑西卡，還有我們，現在我想回報他們，因為我看到你所做的正在幫助別人。是的，我的意思是，這也許是我的一個自私的夢想，但你知道，那會很美好，因為我也會受到很大的啟發，我希望那一天能快點到來。但我也不希望那一天來得太快，因為那代表這些事情會很糟糕，對吧？所以這就像一把雙面刃。

Cliff Yee - Guest

35:01

Totally, totally, and I appreciate you sharing that and disclosing that. I feel like that's real for a lot of Chinese families where, particularly for more traditional families, that you don't rock the boat, going back to the model minority myth you don't rock the boat, you don't talk back, you put your head down, you do the hard work, it'll pay off, and to them that's success at the end of the day. And I think there’s so much more to that now. It is about how are we all interconnected? How do we really create a community where our selves and our loved ones can feel like they belong and they can thrive and are cared for and treated with dignity and respect.

完全同意，非常感謝你分享和披露這一點。我覺得很多華人家庭，尤其是比較傳統的家庭，都秉持著這樣的理念：不惹是生非，回到模範少數族裔的神話：不惹是生非，不頂嘴，埋頭苦幹，努力工作，最終會有回報，對他們來說，這就是成功。現在，我認為還有更多值得探討的地方。這關乎我們如何相互連結？我們如何真正創造一個社區，讓我們自己和我們所愛的人都能感受到歸屬感，能夠茁壯成長，得到關愛，並享有尊嚴和尊重。

And this is where my leadership development and parenting combined come together.

這就是我的領導力發展和養育子女結合的地方。

Jessica Ho - Host

35:57

What do we do?

我們做什麼？

Cliff Yee - Guest

35:58

It's really for me, we have to model the behavior we want to see and, and I think it’s being the change you want to see in the world and right now, because we see people exhibiting behaviors and actions and modeling it in a very detrimental way. To be honest, young people are seeing that and observing that and they're going to think this is the norm and if we don't say something or have a counter narrative to that, then that means it's going to take generations to undo, and this isn't just even on the local level. How do we exercise leadership and model it in a positive way, even if we don't always agree? But we have to model it in a positive way for the young people, because if we can't do that, then we're failing our communities because they're not going to know or observe or see. How do we engage in conflict? How do we talk when we disagree? How do I find my voice, or what are the spaces for me to even try to test out what my voice sounds like if I disagree with something?

對我來說，我們必須以身作則，展現出我們希望看到的行為，我認為這就是我們想要在世界上看到的改變，尤其是在當下，因為我們看到人們的行為和舉動，並以一種非常有害的方式進行模仿。說實話，年輕人正在目睹並觀察這種現象，他們會認為這是常態，如果我們不發聲或不提出反對意見，那就意味著需要幾代人的時間才能消除這種現象，而這不僅僅是在地方層面。我們如何發揮領導力，並以正面的方式樹立榜樣，即使我們並不總是意見一致？但我們必須為年輕人樹立正面榜樣，因為如果我們做不到這一點，我們就辜負了我們的社區，因為他們不會了解、觀察或看到。我們該如何應對衝突？當我們意見不一致時，該如何溝通？我該如何找到自己的聲音？或者說，如果我不同意某件事，我有什麼空間可以試著表達自己的想法？

Jessica Ho - Host

37:06

One point of contention I have is that I believe our youth are already modeling bad behavior, because the counter-narrative is the antidote, but it's not evident, and it's not rewarded. So, it's really, really hard to be kind and to be good and to hold your tongue and to think about how you can improve yourself when everyone else is blaming everyone else, and it's just like easier, I think, for people to say that it's not their fault.

我的一個論點是，我認為我們的年輕人已經在塑造不良行為，因為反敘事是良藥，但它並不明顯，也得不到任何回報。所以，當所有人都在指責別人時，保持善良、保持善良、保持沉默、思考如何改善自己真的非常非常困難。我認為，人們更容易說這不是他們的錯。

Cliff Yee - Guest

37:39

Yeah.

Jessica Ho - Host

37:40

But to take ownership and to change and to learn continually, even when it hurts. I mean that it's not something that happens overnight. It's not something that is evident. So, like it's not shiny right, that happens over time and I hope, too, that our young people can see that and maybe be inspired by that. You know, and I think the more of us who like show up, the more of us who are trying to reject the current hate and see if there's an alternative, even if it isn't cool, even if it isn't polished right, like we have to try and and, yeah, I hope that we see a counterculture to the current status quo.

而是要承擔責任，不斷改變，不斷學習，即使會很痛苦。我的意思是，這不是一朝一夕就能做到的。這不是顯而易見的事。所以，它並非一帆風順，而是需要時間的累積。我也希望我們的年輕人能夠看到這一點，並可能從中受到啟發。你知道，我認為我們當中站出來的人越多，我們當中試圖抵制當前仇恨的人就越多，去探索是否有其他選擇，即使它並不酷，即使它不夠完美，我們也必須嘗試，是的，我希望我們能看到一種與現狀相反的文化。

Cliff Yee - Guest

38:23

Yeah, I mean, you're spot on. Young people are, and have been, ready to lead and make their voices known and to share things from their unique perspective platform. But it's like a checkbox of like great, you know, we have this one young person. And their perspective in sort of the work that I've done with with youth and with youth development. They're ready. And there's something really powerful about putting the trust in young people, because this is their future that's going to be most impacted. How would they like to do things differently? What are some of the hopes and aspirations that they want to really embody so that they can thrive, and that their communities can thrive? And I feel like we're at this tipping point, if you will. And this is not that moment in time to just like sit back, it is a moment to figure out who can you talk to, who are organizations you can support, what are some of the counter narratives out there? We've got to treat each other like we care about each other in our communities.

是的，你說得對。年輕人已經準備好，並且一直準備好引領潮流，發出自己的聲音，並從他們獨特的視角平台分享訊息。但這就像一個複選框，就像一個很棒的複選框，你知道，我們找到了一個年輕人。他們的觀點與我為青年和青年發展所做的工作類似。他們已經準備好了。信任年輕人的力量非常強大，因為這是對他們未來影響最大的。他們希望如何以不同的方式做事？他們真正想要體現哪些希望和抱負，才能讓自己和社區蓬勃發展？我覺得我們正處於一個轉捩點。現在不是坐下來休息的時候，而是要弄清楚你可以和誰交談，你可以支持哪些組織，以及外面有哪些反對的聲音？我們必須像在社區裡互相關心一樣對待彼此。

Jessica Ho - Host

39:38

Yeah, especially when we're all being attacked.

是的，尤其是當我們都受到攻擊的時候。

Cliff Yee - Guest

39:44

Yeah. Instead of us attacking each other, maybe we should stand together to fight the bigger fight, honestly share, maybe, what our core values are or, to a degree, what our unique perspectives are, and channel that in a way that's productive towards a community we want to see, like. I feel like there aren't many of those spaces, and to have those spaces cultivated in a way that is multi-generational is so important right now.

是的。與其互相攻擊，不如團結起來，為更大的目標而戰，坦誠地分享我們的核心價值觀，或者某種程度上，分享我們獨特的視角，並以一種對我們希望看到的社區有益的方式將其引導出去。我覺得這樣的空間不多，而以跨世代的方式培育這樣的空間在當下至關重要。

Jessica Ho - Host

40:28

Great, well, thank you so much. Thank you. Cliff, I really appreciate this conversation. I appreciate you sharing your wisdom with us and kind of some ideas of how we can move forward from this moment.

太好了，非常感謝。謝謝。克里夫，我非常感激這次談話。感謝你與我們分享你的智慧，以及一些關於我們如何從現在開始前進的想法。

Cliff Yee - Guest

40:43

So yeah, I appreciate you having me on as a guest. Shout out to the podcast, shout out to the West Side of the city. Hey, um, you know, we gotta be able to have more opportunities to support one another. So, thank you.

所以，非常感謝你們邀我作客。向播客致敬，向城市西區致敬。嘿，嗯，你知道，我們必須有更多機會互相支持。所以，謝謝你們。

41:07