Where Do We Go Now? Processing the BBB as Chinese Americans

What does it mean to be Chinese American in 2025, when a sweeping new federal law, HR 1 a.k.a. the “Big Beautiful Bill,” reshapes immigration, enforcement, and who feels like they belong?

In this episode, we speak first with Jose Ng, Immigrant Rights Program Manager at Chinese for Affirmative Action (CAA), who breaks down how the BBB impacts mixed-status families, raises application fees, and heightens fear, especially among San Francisco’s estimated 10,000 undocumented Chinese immigrants and their communities.

Then we turn to Cliff Yee, Vice President of Programs and Leadership Development at Coro Northern California and a lifelong resident of the Richmond District. Cliff shares how his family’s history, his grandfather’s arrival through Angel Island, the same house he grew up in, grounds his efforts to reclaim Chinese American identity in a neighborhood often overlooked, despite its deep immigrant roots.

 Together, we explore how we’re dealing with the ground shifting beneath our feet in real time, trying to make sense of change, heritage, and home. 

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The Sunset Connection — exploring the stories and histories that connect us.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Immigration Enforcement Crisis
• 8:13 Jose Ng on Immigrant Rights Work
• 14:51 Providing Free Immigration Legal Services
• 19:24 Community Fear and Confusion
• 26:13 The Big Beautiful Bill Impact
• 33:26 Cliff Yee's Chinese American Experience
• 40:28 Richmond District's Changing Demographics

Transcript

Jessica Ho - Host

00:00

Hey everyone, welcome back to Sunset Connection. My name is Jessica Ho, and I'm your host today. And today's episode was recorded just days after the signing of one of the most sweeping federal bills in recent history, what some are calling the Big Beautiful Bill. It's over 800 pages long and touches nearly every corner of government, from housing to healthcare to climate change and, yes, even immigration. The bill signals a sharp extension of immigration enforcement. It raises fees significantly for asylum seekers, work permits, green card applicants, and it pours billions of dollars into the immigration system as a way to fund ICE and also the immigration courts as a way to prop up the court system. The demand for numerous hearings on immigration is bogging down that. So it's quite an unusual time.

00:53

All of this is unfolding at a moment when quiet crackdowns and delayed renewals are already taking shape. It's already been an issue across the country, but it also affects us here in San Francisco, and if that weren't enough, we're living through some really surreal times. Case in point, I don't know if you guys have heard of Alligator Alcatraz, but that's not something I made up. It's real. It's a nickname for a new immigration detention center built on a former airport deep in the Florida Everglades. Definitely wild times.

01:26

Meanwhile, reports have surfaced that ICE are detaining people in MacArthur Park in LA and it's just a neighborhood I lived in. You know where families picnic and you know kids play and I used to run there all the time and now they're just ICE agents just arresting people, disappearing people there. It's just really unreal and it's super close to home. To make sense of what's happening and what's at stake, I'm excited to welcome Jose Ng, Immigrant Rights Program Manager at Chinese Reverb Action. Jose leads both direct services and policy advocacy, supporting immigrant families through legal guidance, Know Your Rights workshops, and citywide campaigns. He also serves on San Francisco's Immigrant Rights Commission, helping bridge the experiences of our neighbors with the decisions made at City Hall. So without further ado, let's get into it. All right, Jose, thank you for being here.

Jose Ng - Guest

02:18

Hi Jessica. Thank you for inviting me. I'm glad to be here with your audience.

Jessica Ho - Host

02:22

Can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself, where you grew up, and what brought you to this type of work?

Jose Ng - Guest

02:28

Yeah, I grew up in Hong Kong and came here really in 2015, almost 10 years ago, right now. First to Chicago, where I stayed for my grad program, and after that, I decided to come to the Bay Area. You know, partly it's because my experience there, you know, as I work with a lot of immigrants in Chicago when I was a grad student mostly you know people leaving their home country to sit asylum here. All you know the people who had to flee war in the middle east if you remember, like 2016, 2017, that was at the height of the Middle Eastern refugee crisis that's kind of exposed me to a lot of these issues from more global lenses and that's how I also, you know myself as an immigrant in this country and also, you know, but you know, on a more privileged side and you know, that's how I started to learn more about it and verse myself in the immigration world. So, yeah, that's, you know, a short history.

Jessica Ho - Host

03:28

So where are you living now in San Francisco?

Jose NgGuest

03:31

Right now, I live very close to City Hall. You're familiar with the downtown area, so it's a very vibrant neighborhood as well. You know, but not as nice as the sunset area.

Jessica Ho - Host

03:40

Yeah, thank you. Can you tell us, for our listeners who may not know, what Chinese is for Affirmative Action, and what is its history?

Jose Ng - Guest

03:49

Absolutely. So, for those who haven't heard about us, CAA, Chinese for Affirmative Action, we were founded in 1969. That was during the civil rights era. Part of their mission is to protect the civil and political rights of our Chinese American community. Also, our goal is to advance multiracial democracy in the US. Basically, what we do here is to fight for systematic change that protects immigrant rights, promotes our language diversity, and also remedies any injustice embedded in our system.

Jessica Ho - Host

04:20

And how does your team support immigrant rights on a day-to-day basis?

Jose Ng - Guest

04:25

Yes, so the team that we have here at CAA, the immigrant rights team. We do a lot of work. To be honest, I'm not bragging on that team, but definitely from providing direct services to all the way to advocate on the policy front on behalf of the immigrant community. We provide free immigration legal services to the community, particularly limited English proficient, chinese speaking immigrants in our city. A lot of them are low-income, and they have difficulty navigating the US immigration system, and we help them.

04:58

For example - I'll give you an example. We help people if they have been here long enough and qualify, and we want people to become a naturalized citizen. So that's why you know what we do here at CAA as well. We help people to apply for citizenship for free. For others, you know if they might still want some time to think about it or help them remain under lawful permanent residency status by you know, applying for renewing their green card. For others, you know if they have questions about - you know - how they might be able to adjust their immigration status. Here we provide consultation to them. We have been doing a lot of Know Your Rights sessions. You know, Know Your Rights in the sense that you know we inform our community about what's going on on the national level, especially on immigrations, and how you can protect yourself regardless of your immigration status. We have hit almost 40 neural rights workshops so far this year.

Jessica Ho - Host

05:56

And if someone is interested in attending one of these workshops, how would they find out about them?

Jose Ng - Guest

06:02

Yeah, good question. So we have so many teams at CAA, and you know, the information we share through different platforms. You know we have our own WeChat platforms because a lot of Chinese immigrants in our city they're very active on WeChat. So our team, we actually share a lot of information over WeChat, including our community events. We do have our own monthly immigrant rights workshop, which is being held at our program site and our organizations in Chinatown. They can just go to our office, and they can connect with us through our social media account as well.

Jessica Ho - Host

06:35

And so, if someone were having trouble with their immigration status today and they're hearing this, how would they get a hold of you? How could they get help with changing their legal status? Do they just call your office, or is there a special process that they have to go through?

Jose Ng - Guest

06:49

They can just call our office, and they can also call our immigration hotline.

Jessica Ho - Host

06:53

Okay. So, speaking of people who are asking for help right now, what are you hearing from your clients?

Jose Ng - Guest

07:00

Yeah, we have been hearing a lot of different inquiries from our community, a lot of fear, a lot of mixed information. So I think right now, what we have been hearing a lot from the community is confusion and fear. You know, a lot of fear from the community about making international travel plans if you're going back to China to visit the family. I think these are the things that we hear, that you know what things you have to prepare beforehand if you make international travel and some other things. You know, if they're undocumented, if they live in a mixed immigration status family, they have a lot of fear that the government will come after you, especially when [you’re hearing] anti-immigrant aggressive tone and rhetoric you know from our leaders.

Jessica Ho - Host

07:45

I mean, are people just staying at home? Is it like the pandemic? How is it affecting people's day-to-day life?

Jose Ng -Guest

07:50

As a community organization, we are trying to get the information out accurately because the worst thing that we don't want to see is people who are afraid of going to work, people who are afraid of sending the kids to school. So, we have been doing a lot of messaging, you know, trying to calm down the community. At least you know we haven't seen any massive immigration raids or immigration crackdown in our city, because a lot of people when they look at the TV you know when they're those operations being conducted in LA. Especially during the first couple of months, people kept calling the San Francisco Rapid Immigrant Response Hotline asking about hey, is there any immigration raids in the city? Is it safe to go out? Right now? We haven't seen any massive scale like that being conducted in San Francisco, and it's still kind of safe for you to go back to your normal life.

Jessica Ho - Host

08:46

Well, that's on a case-by-case, day-by-day basis, right?

Jose Ng - Guest

08:51

Yeah, unfortunately, I guess this is the reality that we're living in right now, with, you know, those new immigrfants.

Jessica Ho - Host

08:59

I mean, it's affecting people's decisions to travel internationally, it's affecting people's decisions to even go outside, and it sounds like people are just living kind of confused and in fear, which is, I think, a very reasonable thing to feel when you're hearing a lot of different things, especially with policies.

Jose Ng - Guest

09:17

You know, any immigration policy, right now, a day is also too long, because things keep changing on a daily basis. That's also making it way more confusing and complicated for our community.

Jessica Ho - Host

09:27

So I think it's not just English literacy, but it's also policy and law literacy, and I think that is in itself a barrier for a lot of people because they don't really have a good understanding of what's happening. And, honestly, it took me maybe eight hours to go through the big beautiful bill, because that's like 100 pages an hour. But like, yeah, like you know, it takes time and it takes effort to really comprehend everything that's happening in DC and in the courts and how it will apply to people on the ground. So have you seen a significant difference in the last couple weeks or months? Are they seeing that this is happening to us now, and is it causing more alarm?

Jose Ng - Guest

10:09

Yeah, I totally understand that. I feel a lot of people, you know, when they think about the immigration issue, their Chinese faces haven't been really showing up or popping up enough. But in fact, I mean our community is not omitted from all these issues. You know, think about immigration rate. You know how many people in our community actually are undocumented. I'll give you a number in San Francisco. In San Francisco, we have about 10,000 undocumented Chinese immigrants. Wow, 10,000. Yeah, we never think about that. Right, you know, it's 10,000. Actually, that's a lot, that's quite a significant number.

10:46

So, this issue hasn't been talked about enough. I feel like in our community, that's always kind of like a social stigma that, oh, I don't want to talk about it, even with my friends, but actually there might be people around your circle, your friend, your family, sometimes they might be undocumented, but they just don't want to disclose it publicly. We do have undocumented in our community and these are the people that I work with on a daily basis in our city. They could be a mom, you know, with a family of four, you know three to four, you know, US citizens who are all grown up, but she just doesn't have a pathway to adjust their status. They could be someone who's been living in our city for more than 30 years, but still don't have a pathway.

11:32

You know, so a lot of us, you know, we don't quite get it. You know, why don't you, you know, find a way. You know why don't you adjust your standards. But sometimes, you know, it's just frustrating because immigration system is very broken. If you make one mistake, that mistake might prevent you from finding a way to recognize your status here. Also, I want to remind our audience some of you might remember a couple of weeks ago our Secretary of State, Michael Rubio, just came out saying that you know, oh all, right, right now we really want to look into all the Chinese international students and we want to aggressively revoke their immigration status and the student status here.

Jessica Ho - Host

12:11

In the one big beautiful bill. It adds billions of dollars for immigration enforcement and processing, right? So that tells me that the courts are going to start really cranking out these immigration court hearings, and so that's one thing I think we're, you know, probably going to see moving forward now that this bill is in law. And another thing that I'm really kind of watching is the increase in fees for everything, like even fees that didn't exist before, and so earlier you were saying that it's free for people to apply for citizenship or change status through CAA. So I'm wondering- does CAA already cover these costs, and if so, are you going to continue covering these costs when they've increased significantly? Like one of the fees increased from $50 to $5,000. One didn't exist, and now it's like $100. It's just, it's like being penalized for trying to become a citizen.

Jose Ng - Guest

13:09

I think I can go into more detail regarding the application fee itself, but this is really a terrible bill due to its consequences. It's going to, you know, going to, you know, bump up, you know, immigration enforcement, even at a way more larger scale. Because in the bill, you know, as you're saying, it's, you know, allocating 170 billion dollars for immigration enforcement. Think about a figure of 170 billion for immigration enforcement, it means you know, they are going to double down on the budget for immigration and customs enforcement agencies. So basically, they are going to appropriate almost 30 billion tourist eyes for them to enforce immigration law inside the us. So that's actually three times, you know, higher than the current budget that they have. So, you know, just think about that in your mind and picture that, especially a city like San Francisco with a huge immigrant population. Just think about, you know there's always, you know, ICE agents anywhere, everywhere, trying to knock on the door and you know tear apart a family. That's the worst thing that we want to see. But even worse, it's at the expenses of all the other federal programs. But they gotta take out all the money that are supposed to go into, you know, yeah, the Medicare and the SNAP program, the CHIP program and those are all had a huge impact on our community. So that's you know it's a terrible bill.

14:33

And then back to your question early on about the immigration fees. Um, you know the fee itself right now it's already very high, it's about $725. It's such a huge investment already and that would, if more increase on the fee would just discourage more people from applying. I know that a lot of people actually gone for CAA. They are low-income family so we try to wait for them to apply for free waiver. So a lot of them, you know they end up they don't have to pay any to become a citizen. So that's a good thing. You know. We just have to keep defending those benefits that are available for our community right now.

Jessica Ho - Host

15:15

Given this new reality, what are you thinking in terms of, you know next steps? What are you preparing for? What are you looking for? How should we be? What should we do? What is the situation right now?

Jose Ng - Guest

15:32

Yes, I know it's too much bad news already. I think, something that we are, you know, another, a lot of other immigrant rights organizations that have been doing. It's one, it's more, trying our best, you know, to stop all the bad policy. You know, I know a lot of organizations that are filing lawsuits against the government, trying to block it from happening. And other organizations, I think, are trying to give out quality information and resources to our community.

16:04

Well, right now, our message to the community has always been like that, you know, if you're eligible, try to be, you know, a natural citizen, try to apply for naturalization as soon as possible. At this local city fund, we are trying to ask for more funding from the City to prioritize immigration, especially right now, as you all know, immigrant communities are being attacked by the federal government. So a lot of those advocacies actually have gone into budget advocacy for our local immigrant community organizations. like CAA, our city-wide network, San Francisco Immigrant Legal Education Network, and some other citywide partners as well. We've been trying to advocate for more funding so we can provide more services, especially right now. It's more needed than ever.

Jessica Ho - Host

16:54

Absolutely. I don't know how to access information about the latest news of what's going on about immigration. If there's raids, like if there's what's what's true, what's not like there's, is there like a platform that a CAA has that we can kind of rely on, just like how, when COVID-19 kind of happened, we have a network of like people who were keeping up to date with all the changes and really communicating that out to the rest of us?

Jose Ng - Guest

17:25

Yes, we do have our presence, as I said earlier, through CAA. We have been very active, especially on WeChat spaces. We also run a Chinese language fact-checking website. and you can also find some resources on our CAA website as well. We do provide updated information out there, especially you know - fact sheet one-pagers, trying to break down all the policy and the impact of it. So I can share our you know website information here, and then you can share with your audience as well.

Jessica Ho - Host

17:57

Yeah, no, that would be great. I know it's a really tough time and it's a tough topic to kind of engage on. So thank you for talking to me about it, because I think these issues they're happening in real time. At least for me, one of the things that I really like to do is be prepared and know what's going to happen, and I feel like the game has changed and I think the new rules are being written as we speak, and so in this new system, you know, I wonder what is going to be the way that we can fight back.

18:30

Right, is it just surviving? You know, at this point it’s like the first kind of mode. And then what can we do for each other in terms of just being kind, you know, to one another, when there's a world that is not kind to people like us? And I think maybe just that is a good start, you know, and like what Dr Russell Jung said in his podcast episode, like, just have conversations, just ask your parents, ask your kids, like, continue the dialogue with people in your community, check in on people, see if they're okay, kind of be together emotionally and physically if possible, but for each other, when things are so tough, there's not really any answers that I have that I can see right now, and maybe the answers will come in the future. In the meantime, I think all we have are each other.

Jose Ng - Guest

19:22

Absolutely. I like the idea that you are talking about. You know how we can treat each other as just human beings. Support each other as much as we can. I know you know if someone is more fortunate, you can donate your money, you can donate your time. Definitely, a lot of community-based organizations would love to have your money and support as well. So I encourage people to talk to one another especially, I feel like, about one another's immigration history. So it's been always part of our history, so I think we just have to keep talking about it until one day that everyone is being liberated and free.

Jessica Ho - Host

19:59

Yeah, thank you. Thanks so much, jose. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me about this thank you.

Jose Ng - Guest

20:06

Thank you for having me, thank you okay, well, thanks so much.

Jessica Ho - Host

20:10

All right, now that we've heard from Jose about the legal and policy dimensions of immigration enforcement, both in the past, now, and potentially in the future, let's shift to the places, our neighborhoods, that shape how we belong. For Chinese Americans, life and culture aren't just a backdrop. They're embedded in the built environment and the histories and cultures of people who live there. You see it in the Chinese characters on storefronts, the language is spoken on the street, and the way that communities layer and blend over time. Take the Richmond district. It's just across the park, not very far from the Sunset District. Ruble is considered the west side, but I would say that we're.

20:46

You know there are differences between the Sunset and Richmond, but the Richmond has been called a second Chinatown for decades by those who've lived it, who know it, and even without formal recognition. And so, to help us unpack all of this, I'm delighted to welcome Cliff Yee. Born and raised in Richmond, Cliff has over 20 years of experience in leadership, development, and community organizing. He currently serves as vice president of programs at CORO, Northern California. He is deeply involved in civic life in the neighborhood, most recently helping lead Richmond's first-ever Lunar New Year parade and serving on the board of the Richmond Neighborhood Center. Cliff brings both personal history and institutional insight to questions of place, identity, and political belonging in 2025. So, Cliff, welcome.

Cliff Yee- Guest

21:33

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Jessica Ho - Host

21:34

Let's begin with your family's journey.

Cliff Yee - Guest

21:37

Yeah, I mean, it's a story that's very near and dear to my heart. I grew up not knowing a whole lot about it probably until college when I got one of those assignments to an Asian American Studies course to sort of learn about your family's history, and it was then that I really started to unpack and learn more about my family's history, particularly on my father's side, where my grandfather was born in China, in Zhongshan, and came over when he was 15 in like 1925. And at that time, he ended up being detained at Angel Island and stayed there as a 15-year-old trying to come into San Francisco. And thankfully, when he finally settled in San Francisco it was in Chinatown where he worked odds and ends jobs, ended up being in a restaurant, ended up being like a barback. He and my family at the time they all grew up in a flat in San Francisco.

22:42

Chinatown had the awareness, I guess, or this is part of the trend, if you will to move from Chinatown to the Richmond District.

22:50

So as prices were starting to increase, they knew or something told them to let's move out to the west side, let's move out to the Richmond district. So they moved in the 60s and thankfully, I grew up and get to still live in the house that's been in my family since then, and so now, being in a multi-generational household where my dad lives with us, I have two kids that are 11 and 7.

23:14

It's something that's both really familiar and also different as things kind of change in the community, and so that's my dad's side, and for my mom's side, they are ethnic Chinese, born in Burma and also came over here and also back in the day, and so that is sort of the combination of who I am and kind of what brings me here, and I've been able to, over my time being in the Richmond District, start to find ways to give back and model what it means to give back, and I've been very fortunate to do that both professionally and personally.

Jessica Ho - Host

23:54

That's beautiful. What do you see as different now, like how is it different in Chinatown versus Richmond versus Sunset?

Cliff Yee - Guest

24:01

I start with kind of like my upbringing. So, growing up in the Richmond district, the only times that I went to Chinatown were probably to bring one family association meals and then to bring my grandma, to like the Chinese hospital, because that's where she still got care regularly. That's where, like, I would either go take the bus with her when I could finally drive, I would drive her over there, and then we would do a little bit of grocery shopping, but for the most part, that was sort of the interaction with Chinatown. It would be maybe a couple of times a month, whereas here in the Richmond we still had access to a lot of the food, the markets, the sense of community with other folks that lived in the Richmond. And then, as I see it now, since the pandemic, there has been an increase in the investment or ties to Chinatown, and I think a lot of that comes from early on in the pandemic, where a lot of the businesses were hurting, where there was a lot of Asian hate to be honest,. The community, though they were resilient, there was still opportunities to increase that resilience for Chinatown, and so what I have seen happen over the past few years are friends of mine who live in the Richmond have either started organizations or have actively helped out in how they contribute and give back to Chinatown, while still remaining community ties here in the Richmond, but they see sort of the importance of really wanting to invest back in Chinatown and to be able to. You know, I wouldn't go as far as saying they're doing it to like model how to give back, but you know, for those that are families it's so important to have that tie and that connection, and so I see that happening as a trend.

26:01

I think when I see what's happening in the Richmond district, there's a growing aging population, for Chinese seniors have to figure out what to do, whether or not they want to stay in the neighborhood or move out, because people that are either my age or younger, so their children or grandchildren, are at a place where they've either identified I cannot stay here, I cannot afford this or they want to be somewhere else, and so what I have seen in the neighborhood is how would you say it?

26:35

Like there's a lot of like for sale signs. I know there are still some Asian elders in the community, but I also feel like there's less and less, and so that's an interesting shift. One of the other things that I have been fortunate to be able to do in a volunteer role was for our elementary school. I was their PTO co-chair/ So that meant that over several years, I'm trying to be a liaison between the school community and the families. One thing that I've seen over the past few years, particularly at our school in the Richmond district, is that there's less Chinese families, there's less Chinese students coming into the kindergarten grade level, and so that gives me a data point about what might be happening with the demographics of the Richmond District.

Jessica Ho - Host

27:22

Interesting. I mean, there's a market dynamic, I think, that's in play. You know, if you came out here, and you bought a house in the 80s, you know, you could have bought it for $100,000 and now you can sell it for $1.5 million. So there's also that yeah, right? So I mean there's a cashing out, which is like a benefit, right? But then, where do they go after?

Cliff Yee - Guest

27:40

Yeah, yeah. And that's where I don't quite have that. You know, I don't have that insight, other than to know that the information that I am observing is that there is a change in the demographics, acknowledging that there is an aging population in Richmond that is making these decisions right, folks who are homeowners and selling. When I think about my own family, as I shared, like you know, I have family that has moved towards the peninsula, towards the South Bay, but that's one of the shifts, yeah, my family has a very similar pattern.

Jessica Ho - Host

28:17

My family has a very similar pattern, and I've known a lot of friends and people who have shared very similar patterns, where their family started out in Chinatown or they came, and they moved out to Richmond. They've also spread out to the Sunset and down the Bay. So then the demographics of Richmond are also shifting now to everyone, and so it is a great place to live, a great place to raise your family, and I think that's a great thing to have more families. But, yeah, it's something to recognize that it is a shift.

Cliff Yee - Guest

28:59

Yeah, and one of the great things also that I've happened over the past few years in the Richmond and I think maybe part of this is due to the pandemic and coming out of the pandemic, more folks wanting to connect as a community. And so we've seen more night markets and street festivals and, you know, having a few years of that I think was really building towards the opportunity to have the first ever, you know, lunar New Year festival in the Richmond. Of course, we all know the famous one in the city that happens every year, and to be able to have one here in my backyard in the Richmond district and to be able to be the first ever Grand Marshal is both very humbling and a very exciting place for the community to be at, a place where we can celebrate ourselves here?

Jessica Ho - Host

29:52

Yeah, tell me about the parade.

Cliff Yee - Guest

29:54

Yeah, yeah, it was. I mean I have to give a lot of shout out to the Richmond Neighborhood Center. I am fortunate to be their Board chair, and shout out to the staff for all the organizing that goes into that and to really get buy-in from the merchants, to get volunteers from local faith-based organizations and other you know, and other youth serving organizations like CYC. Everyone is just excited to see the performers, to have the stage, to have the elected officials, including the mayor, come out and really mark this moment and the opportunity. I remember, after the parade, eating with family at one of our favorite family spots, little Henry's, and I think even at like 9.30 at night, people were still like just walking the streets and just abuzz and you saw people of all ages and big smiles on their face. It really was a remarkable moment for the community. When I say the community, I'm thinking of both the Chinese community and also the Richmond District community.

Jessica Ho - Host

30:59

As the Richmond District becomes more diverse and, you know, brings in more people of different backgrounds. I think it is very beautiful. I feel like that's what America, in my eyes, was meant to be is that we all contribute our past and legacy equally, but it creates something even better.

Cliff Yee - Guest

31:20

I feel like one of the number one things that is celebrated is the diversity. The diversity of people, cultures, languages. The food represents that, and even as we think about some of the newer businesses moving in, there's this really interesting contrast of like cultural tradition, of like legacy businesses with some of the newer businesses that are like right next door, and so it becomes just a really energizing like stroll when you go down Clement Street and just see how things are changing over time.

Jessica Ho - Host

32:00

Right, yeah, yeah, thank you for sharing your story. I really wanted to kind of turn our attention now to kind of what's happening in real time, right? No matter how much it feels bad in the moment, I don't know, for me, whenever I look back I'm like, oh yeah, those were the days right and it feels comforting because we know the ending and so it's less scary. But when we look to the future, we don't know how things will end. We don't know how things will turn out right, yeah, but I think humans are smart enough to realize when big things happen, there are repercussions, even though we don't understand what those repercussions are. If there's a comet that comes down, and you know that could be really bad, yes, and there could be a lot of unintended consequences. Similarly, this big beautiful bill is kind of like a comet that just like came on and like struck us, and we're not really sure what the aftermath is, but we know it came, yeah.

Cliff Yee - Guest

32:55

Yeah, oh, my gosh, that's where I like taking a deep breath as we shift gears and talk about this a little bit. But often times, I say this in my leadership development work, actions have consequences, right, and so what are the consequences - both known and unknown? And we're not sure what's going to happen right now. We just know communities are going to be hurting more. I feel like families and friends are going to be impacted.

33:29

I have some hope and I say this with that kind of cadence because I may be trying to really wish it and will it - that is - hope that I've seen family and friends speak out and show up when they have, when they have not done that before, and so that's really saying something different about this moment. When I have relatives texting me, photos of them at rallies or sharing with me how they feel, and they have not done that ever, and I'm talking about like in 40 years. Well, I didn't have a phone for 40 years, but you know like but they've just never shared that sort of angst and frustration and concern with me, and these are like older relatives, and so that says something really remarkable about this moment around what they're seeing and experiencing to be able to take action at this point in time.

Jessica Ho - Host

34:23

Yeah, that is inspiring. You know I'll share something personal about my own family. They haven't hit that point yet. I'm waiting for that moment. I can't wait until I get a text from my parents saying like I see it, I see how this is impacting the people you care about, Jessica, but us too, and now I want to give back, because I see that what you're doing is helping. Yeah, that's I mean maybe like a selfish dream of mine, but you know, that's like that would be so beautiful because I would also be so inspired and I'm hoping that will come soon. But I also don't want that to come soon because that means that these are so bad, right? So it's like kind of like a double edged sword.

Cliff Yee - Guest

35:01

Totally, totally, and I appreciate you sharing that and disclosing that. I feel like that's real for a lot of Chinese families where, particularly for more traditional families, that you don't rock the boat, going back to the model minority myth you don't rock the boat, you don't talk back, you put your head down, you do the hard work, it'll pay off, and to them that's success at the end of the day. And I think there’s so much more to that now. It is about how are we all interconnected? How do we really create a community where our selves and our loved ones can feel like they belong and they can thrive and are cared for and treated with dignity and respect.

And this is where my leadership development and parenting combined come together. 

Jessica Ho - Host

35:57

What do we do?

Cliff Yee - Guest

35:58

It's really for me, we have to model the behavior we want to see and, and I think it’s being the change you want to see in the world and right now, because we see people exhibiting behaviors and actions and modeling it in a very detrimental way. To be honest, young people are seeing that and observing that and they're going to think this is the norm and if we don't say something or have a counter narrative to that, then that means it's going to take generations to undo, and this isn't just even on the local level. How do we exercise leadership and model it in a positive way, even if we don't always agree? But we have to model it in a positive way for the young people, because if we can't do that, then we're failing our communities because they're not going to know or observe or see. How do we engage in conflict? How do we talk when we disagree? How do I find my voice, or what are the spaces for me to even try to test out what my voice sounds like if I disagree with something?

Jessica Ho - Host

37:06

One point of contention I have is that I believe our youth are already modeling bad behavior, because the counter-narrative is the antidote, but it's not evident, and it's not rewarded. So, it's really, really hard to be kind and to be good and to hold your tongue and to think about how you can improve yourself when everyone else is blaming everyone else, and it's just like easier, I think, for people to say that it's not their fault.

Cliff Yee - Guest

37:39

Yeah.

Jessica Ho - Host

37:40

But to take ownership and to change and to learn continually, even when it hurts. I mean that it's not something that happens overnight. It's not something that is evident. So, like it's not shiny right, that happens over time and I hope, too, that our young people can see that and maybe be inspired by that. You know, and I think the more of us who like show up, the more of us who are trying to reject the current hate and see if there's an alternative, even if it isn't cool, even if it isn't polished right, like we have to try and and, yeah, I hope that we see a counterculture to the current status quo.

Cliff Yee - Guest

38:23

Yeah, I mean, you're spot on around. Young people are, and have been, ready to lead and make their voices known and to share things from their unique perspective platform, or it's like a checkbox of like great, you know, we have this one young person. And their perspective in sort of the work that I've done with with youth and youth development, they're, they're ready. And there's something really powerful about putting the trust in young people, because this is their future that's going to be most impacted. How would they like to do things differently? What are some of the hopes and aspirations that they want to really embody so that way they can thrive and that you know their communities can thrive? And I feel like we're at this tipping point, if you will. And this is not that moment in time to just like sit back, it is a moment to figure out who can you talk to, who are organizations you can support, what are some of the counter narratives out there? We got to treat each other like we care about each other in our communities.

Jessica Ho - Host

39:38

Yeah, especially when we're all being attacked.

Cliff Yee - Guest

39:44

Yeah. Instead of us attacking each other, maybe we should stand together to fight the bigger fight, honestly share, maybe, what our core values are or, to a degree, what our unique perspectives are, and channel that in a way that's productive towards a community we want to see, like. I feel like there aren't many of those spaces, and to have those spaces cultivated in a way that is multi-generational is so important right now.

Jessica Ho - Host

40:28

Great, well, thank you so much. Thank you. Cliff, I really appreciate this conversation. I appreciate you sharing your wisdom with us and kind of some ideas of how we can move forward from this moment.

Cliff Yee - Guest

40:43

So yeah, I appreciate you having me on as a guest. Shout out to the podcast, shout out to the West Side of the city. Hey, um, you know, we gotta be able to have more opportunities to support one another. So, thank you.

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