The Sunset Connection - Perspectives from SF's Sunset Neighborhood

Sunset Commons: A New Kind of Third Space for the Sunset

• Jessica J. Ho

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In this episode, Jessica sits down with Carmen and Steven Lee, the creators of Sunset Commons, a brand-new arts and crafts café in San Francisco’s Inner Sunset. The two high school sweethearts turned small business owners talk about what it takes to launch a small business post-pandemic, the importance of third spaces, and why crocheting in public might just save your soul.

The episode was recorded earlier this summer, but we’re launching it now because Sunset Commons officially opened its doors on August 2nd!

You’ll also hear about their longtime peer learning group SPREAD (@spread_sf), their favorite DIY kits, and their vision for a Sunset where creativity, community, and curiosity collide.

Follow them at:

  • @sunset.commons – for cafe & event updates
  • @spread_sf – for their peer-led learning group

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The Sunset Connection — exploring the stories and histories that connect us.

Jessica Ho:

Okay, hi everyone. Welcome back to the Sunset Connection. I'm your host, Jessica Ho, and today I'm thrilled to introduce Carmen and Steven Lee, the visionaries behind Sunset Commons, a new arts and crafts cafe in the inner sunset. This space isn't just about creativity. It's about community connection and cultivating a sense of belonging in our neighborhood. In times where division seems prevalent, initiatives like Sunset Commons remind us of the power of coming together, sharing experiences and building relationships. Let's dive into their journey and learn more about this inspiring endeavor. A quick note before we dive in this episode was recorded before Sunset Commons officially opened on August 2nd, and if you are listening to this, they are officially open and ready for you to visit, so I guess we're ready to go.

Steven Lee:

Okay, All right, we're here, we made it.

Jessica Ho:

You made it. Thank you so much for coming to my humble abode. So let's start with where you're from. What brought you guys to the sunset Like? Tell us your story, so my story.

Carmen Lee:

I actually born and raised in the sunset and that's where I started. I attended Wah Mei, I attended Jefferson Elementary, St. Anne's, and then Wash. So I've always been in the Sunset, grew up there. I know Irving like the back of my hand, so it's always been my community.

Steven Lee:

Yeah, my family came to San Francisco. As my parents were immigrants, we landed in actually a couple blocks up from Chinatown in Knob Hill, and then they got a place when I was in third grade in Bayview, hunters Point. But my parents wanted me to go to school on the other side of the city, so I ended up in Presidio and Washington High School and that's when I started hanging out in Sunset. My dad would drop me off early in the morning every day, but going home I would take 29 all the way home. So let's say I grew up on the bus, but that cuts through the sunset, as everyone knows, and so after school sometimes we hang out on the sunset. I would say the main reason I'm in the sunset is because Carmen here, who we got married, actually earlier this month, Congratulations.

Jessica Ho:

Thank you.

Steven Lee:

So the main reason I'm in the sunset is because I was hanging out at Carmen's house since high school, and that was 13 years ago. So ever since then that's been my story in the sunset. I've also went to Skyline College, which is not too far. So during my community college years I also hung out in the sunset with Carmen. During those years I dragon boated at Lake Merced, so we'd always get food on Terravel, noriega. Also, not many people know I'm in the National Guard. I've been in the Guard for about eight years now. There's a National Guard armory near Lake Merced as well, tucked hidden away near the zoo, and I was in that unit until 2021. So that's kind of my short history in Sunset.

Jessica Ho:

That's great. How did you guys meet High school JROTC? Oh, both of you did JROTC, Both of us Wow.

Carmen Lee:

We were friends before we started dating.

Jessica Ho:

Yeah, I noticed most of the guests here are from Lowell so we gotta represent, we gotta represent.

Carmen Lee:

Wash here and then went to college in LA and was considering staying there because I made friends there.

Jessica Ho:

I also have a community over there, and so what was like the defining factor for you to come back.

Carmen Lee:

I decided to move back because my family's here. I also have friends, and community here, so to give back to this community.

Steven Lee:

The answer is always family, right, family and community. Still here, we mentioned the program that we're in high school, jrotc. It's a pretty, it's a unique program in the sense that it combines different classes, so freshmen to senior, and it's peer-led, so there's a big community there as well that is still really tight-knit. So that's one of the main reasons I came back to San Francisco, and even now my day job is in Sacramento, but I'm back every weekend.

Jessica Ho:

That's commitment. I know that commute it is not easy. It's not easy. Some people do it every day, know that commute it is not easy.

Steven Lee:

It's not easy. Some people do it every day, which is crazy.

Jessica Ho:

It's not healthy.

Steven Lee:

It's not.

Jessica Ho:

A lot of driving. Yeah, Third spaces is what you guys are creating, correct. This is like a big big deal yeah.

Jessica Ho:

As the Surgeon General mentioned before this administration, vivek Murthy, that loneliness is an epidemic. It's a public health epidemic, right, and I think the lack of third spaces is something that's really important for people to combat loneliness, and there just aren't a lot of spaces in the Sunset District. So I think that what you guys are doing is really awesome and actually something that I am also trying to do as well. So we're like trying to build more spaces for a community, which is great.

Jessica Ho:

I love that yeah Awesome. You came back from LA, you're here, you're back in the community. Then what inspired you to create Sunset Commons?

Carmen Lee:

Yeah. So when I came back, most of the friends that I knew also went off to college. So coming back, I needed to find a community again. And when I started hitting up my friends, we went to go hang out, get lunch, get dinner, and then after dinner, super full, but I still wanted to hang out, they still wanted to hang out. So now we're like all right, what should we do? Let's go get dessert.

Carmen Lee:

But at a certain point you know I'm just too full to eat anymore, so that I'm looking for alternatives besides just eating dessert. And if you think about the sunset, like what can you do in the evening time if you're not eating dessert? Well, you could go to the bar, you could go to the game parlor or you could go to karaoke. But other than that, it's hard to find evening activities to do in the sunset. And personally for me, I wanted a space that I could hang out with my friends at, also craft, because I like crafting. So I'm like all right, there's nothing in the sunset that we could do that, so let's do it ourselves, let's start that ourselves.

Jessica Ho:

That's amazing. So what do you envision the Sunset Commons to provide? Like, will it be open late at night? Like what is it? What's the format?

Steven Lee:

Well, we're going to be open throughout the day and the evening. The daytime there'll be a little coffee shop. Folks can, you know, work from home there, hang out, read a book or do the crafts. We're also going to be offering workshops on the weekends with instructors that will provide the material. So there's that if folks like to do a more social and instructive activity. And then there'll also be opportunities for private events if folks want to do that birthday parties, what have you.

Steven Lee:

But we also envision it really to be a third space, as you were talking about a common room or a living room for the sunset. We want to make sure we have a community board, for example, where we can advertise all the fairs that are going on. The sunset is really experiencing a sort of renaissance and it's really amazing to see. I know, Jess, you've been a big part of that work, so we're really happy about this. We want to make sure folks know about that. We also want to make sure that there's discourse and discussion among the community about any topics. Officials can come and have their coffee hours and groups, like you know, the city has more than 20 Democratic clubs, clubs like that. They can host their membership meetings and things like that. We want to make sure there's a space for community, and so that's what we're envisioning right now.

Jessica Ho:

I have also felt that way, but like I never thought let's open up a storefront, so like, what made you take that leap?

Carmen Lee:

I think for me, I've always wanted to start a business. So it's always been percolating at the back of my mind oh, I could do this, I could do that. But I think what really drove me to really want to do Sunset Commons is because the pandemic happened. Everyone's anxious, depressed, lonely. We need more spaces like this. So it's like what did I get a degree for at UCLA if I don't do anything substantial with it? So I'm like all right, let's try, and if it fails, at least we tried.

Steven Lee:

Yeah, carmen's family has always been the more you know business or entrepreneurial side of things, and Carmen, you know Carmen has an MBA. For me, I've always been focused on public service and I just love the challenge of doing something, planning it, going from planning to execution. Sunset Commons to me, I think it's, you know, something that we're doing for the first time together. So we're going through all the permitting, all the renovations, all this for the first time, with a lot of help from the city, which has been really helpful. Just setting that goal and telling ourselves that, you know, life is a little too short to always want to think about doing something but never actually doing it. So we want to make sure that we take our best stab at it, provide something valuable to the community.

Carmen Lee:

I agree, I don't want to be at my deathbed and be like, oh, I regret not even trying to start something or not doing it. So it's just like, okay, let's just do it, let's just start, let's find out, and then go from there.

Jessica Ho:

Great. So what is your goal? Like, what is it that you want to achieve? Like, when you see X, you're like this is it, I made it, we made it.

Carmen Lee:

I think success to me looks like whenever someone comes into sunset commons, they're feeling excited about, oh, the possibilities of what can I do today at the store, what, what should I make? Um, so definitely, uh, feeling excited, um, about all the potentials, excited about all the potentials, feeling curious about, oh, what am I going to learn today, what's going to happen today? And then also practicing courage so that they're not afraid of failing. That you know, making something with your own hands takes courage, because you don't know if it's going to be something great or something that maybe there's a few cracks, it's okay. But entering into Sunset Commons and then having that kind of environment and then also having a bustling kind of common space, there's something going on every day, something to look forward to every day.

Steven Lee:

I myself. I don't love going to a bar and screaming over you know 50 people, maybe once in a blue moon, but we want to offer something in the community that is not currently there and we want it to be well utilized. We want folks not feel like they have to spend a lot of money, for example, to be in the space and just expect things are happening you know once a month or what have you, and just feel welcome and warm in the space.

Jessica Ho:

So yeah, tell me more about the types of crafts and arts you will be offering.

Carmen Lee:

Yeah, so, for example, types of crafts and arts you will be offering? Yeah, so, for example, I'm super excited to teach others how to hand crochet. So how to hand crochet a bag. A lot of other people have reached out to us and they're like oh, I want to teach how to mend holes in my shirt or holes in my jeans. I've had people reach out to me about lino cut. So it's like kind of like block printing. What's block printing? It's when you have a block, then you shave it down and you make a piece of like a shape or art and then you paint over it and then you stamp it onto, for example, canvas and then you'll have a piece of art. So I've had people reach out to me about that Sewing, knitting, knitting clay, all types of art yeah, we wanted to have a wide breadth of things.

Steven Lee:

we've noticed there's a lot of cool studios in town, but they'll be focused on just painting or just pottery. So we want to be able to provide the huge breadth of of activities and know we're not the experts on any of these activities. We are looking for instructors that you know are good, experienced. They're, you know, very passionate hobbyists and we've gotten a big response so far. So these are the folks that will be teaching the workshops. So we want to leverage them and have them have a place to invite their friends to participate in their passions. We've always been community focused, so something we've been doing the last maybe six years is this peer learning group PowerPoint presentation parties where folks share their passion, something they're interested in. We've been doing that once a month for about six years now.

Jessica Ho:

Yeah, tell me more about these PowerPoint parties.

Carmen Lee:

I've never heard of this, yeah, so we started a group called Spread supporting peer respect, education and discourse, and it just started among friends and then friends invite friends. So that's how it grew. But we ask our friends to share what they're currently working on, what they're interested in. So most recently, our friend Sachet. He just shared his passion about biking so he prepared a whole kind of lecture session about, okay, types of bikes, maintenance, how do you fix a flat tire. After that we went to Golden Gate Park and then we biked. So we have a variety of workshops that we've done financial management, skincare, bartending it's a whole array of different topics and it's nice to see what your friends are interested in and you learn about it or they learn more about their topic, and then it's a. It's a nice thing that we have going on.

Jessica Ho:

So how many people are part of this group now?

Steven Lee:

Well, let's see. Well we are. We've been, we've had about 55 events. I want to say they're pretty well documented. We record them for, you know, our own purposes and we average about 12 or so attendees every month. And you know, sometimes it's just going out to participate in one of the cleanup events that folks are hosting throughout town, or it's just a social event we just hang out. It's been going pretty strong. Is it five years or so? Something like that? Yeah six.

Jessica Ho:

Yeah, how do people learn about it if they want to join this group?

Carmen Lee:

Yeah, spread underscore SF, and so you'll find us there and just go ahead and DM us and we'll add you to the roster.

Jessica Ho:

Great, I'll make sure to link that to the show notes. Is that how most people find you? Is through the Instagram.

Carmen Lee:

Instagram, but also just word of mouth. Friends will invite friends, and that's how we expand the group.

Jessica Ho:

Great. So another question I have for makers, or like enthusiastic hobbyists how do they reach out if they want to teach a class and how will they be compensated Like? Is there sort of a business model for that?

Steven Lee:

Yeah, absolutely so. The primary way to reach out is through our Instagram. Of course, we have email and everything everything but we know folks are on instagram. Sunset commons is the uh account. Uh, we're very responsive and, um, yeah, there is a business model where both ourselves and the instructors um split the share of the revenue, so it it's ticket revenue. We'll be offering tickets to all the workshops on Eventbrite. That's a platform that folks are familiar with and it's a model where we're also getting the word out, marketing the event, and the instructor is also doing that to their network, and so the more folks that show up, the more beneficial for both parties.

Jessica Ho:

When are you planning to start?

Steven Lee:

That is the magic question. So we signed the lease on our place. It's on 17th and, irving on the corner, folks might have seen it as they traveled through the sunset. We signed the lease for that space in December 2024. As we said, we're the first time business owners We've been working with the city on inspecting the space. There's a whole number of inspections you have to do with different city departments. Since the space wasn't renovated in about 30 years, there wasn't enough material between the commercial space and the residential space above. So the building inspector came and said yes, you actually need to redo your ceiling, and so that's what we're going through.

Jessica Ho:

So that added a few weeks between opening dates and I've known a lot of small business owners who have had to delay their openings by months, sometimes a year because of permitting issues or anything else. So the fact that you guys are only a month off of your target date is really impressive. Yeah, I was going to ask you what advice you would give to small business owners.

Carmen Lee:

I think one of the major lessons I learned from this experience is over communicate, and it helps that we're not afraid to reach out to the different resources. So the Office of Small Business was really helpful. There's all these resources that I didn't know about until I started looking into it, but there's resources out there and it's good to always reach out to different people and just ask them for their opinions and experience, because then you'll have a whole, a lot more option.

Jessica Ho:

What advice would you give to a new business owner that was interested in picking a location?

Carmen Lee:

If you're starting a cafe, you want to look for a space that was originally a cafe. You want to look for a space that was originally a cafe Because it already has all the infrastructure. It'll have the plumbing, it'll have the sinks. You don't have to worry about that. You already know the city's going to approve it because it was previously the cafe use. We kind of took the other option, even though we knew this advice, because, yeah, great advice, we didn't take it.

Carmen Lee:

We didn't take it because I mean the rent for the space that we had, also the proximity location. But I mean, if there was an option that was ideal, the ideal thing would have a space that was previously a cafe.

Jessica Ho:

But so since you guys didn't open a space that was previously a cafe, so how did you guys? Did you guys have to change use? Did you guys have to go to the planning commission, or was it a simple permit change, Like? How did it work?

Steven Lee:

The long story, short answer is utilize all the services that the city provides as far as small business coaching Kitty Tank Shop, but also the state has designated small business development centers. Those are the experts, because it is such a daunting journey to go through and it's very, it's pretty complicated. So you need help, you need to find a mentor, you need to find communities that are like-minded and have the resources to help you. That's absolutely crucial. If we try to do it ourselves, we would be so far behind from where we are. With the help that we got, we were able to navigate these things right. So, though, folks in the Office of Small Business, for example, can connect us directly to the inspectors that know the code back and forth and told us exactly what we need to do in order to have that renovation work out. For example, you know we are not a full kitchen in the cafe. We are a I don't know what the legal term is a limited use cafe, meaning that we don't have a stove and we're not going to be cooking in the space. So, with that, there are less requirements, right, but we still had to put in a number of sinks according to the state health guidelines. But so, and all that information is gleaned from conversations with the city and the folks who are actually going to be inspecting and approving your plans.

Steven Lee:

We also lean on our friends and our architecture team because they have to draw up plans for the renovations. They know all of the engineering code and whatnot. They draw the plans up to standard. So, yeah, I can't imagine doing any of this yourself at all. It's impossible. You can't draw plans according to whatever requirements they have with whatever software that they pay a lot of money for, so you have to lean on folks to get help. So you're not going to do it alone, unless you're just doing, I don't know, etsy or something, which is good and you can start that in our shop. But if you're doing a full brick and mortar.

Steven Lee:

Yeah, then you need to lean on the existing resources which are out there.

Carmen Lee:

Definitely reach out to your designated inspectors. I didn't know this beforehand, but, depending on where the store location is, you have a designated inspector for building inspection, fire department of public health. So reach out to them during the beginning and not towards the middle or the end, because you need to work with them hand in hand and, at the end of the day, they're the ones who are going to go and inspect your space. So if you can talk to them directly, introduce yourself, do that.

Jessica Ho:

So before this, what were you doing? Because I remember you were at the farmer's market.

Carmen Lee:

We've been doing pop-ups while we've been renovating, just to engage with the community and introduce ourselves, tell them that we're coming. So please, please, be prepared to come over and also just to test our products, to see which ones are more popular, and go from there.

Jessica Ho:

Yeah, so what products are you selling and what are popular have?

Carmen Lee:

you heard of Wubbles. They're these crochet kits. It comes with video tutorials and it'll teach you, step by step, how to crochet, and that's actually how I learned how to crochet and so I've been crocheting these small animals. So we were selling that. We're selling air dry clay kits.

Steven Lee:

Yeah, these are products that when you first come in they'll be on the wall and you can just pick it up and do it yourself. I love to do puzzles, so I like these 3D puzzles that can make a lot of different shapes. We have our favorite so far the flowers. They're super cute and they only take about 45 minutes to do. So those are those. I think those will be popular. Those have been popular. We have paint by number kits where you know you can just follow the number. It tells you what color you're putting in there. So those are very beginner-friendly activities and, again, they span the wide breadth of things you can do. So those are quick, small things that you can pick up when you come in. We'll even have a place where you can leave it. If you don't finish it, come back next time and work on it. So those are the type of things we're offering.

Jessica Ho:

So it sounds to me like you guys just come across things that are interesting and you're like, wow, this is super cool, and then you guys want to share it with the world. Is that kind of what I'm hearing?

Carmen Lee:

Yeah, basically we test our products before we, before we sell them. Rolif, the clay ones, those are really fun and it's nice to be able to, you know, say with confidence that oh, we tried it, we like it.

Steven Lee:

So I'm sure you guys will like it as well.

Steven Lee:

Yeah, we definitely want to encourage folks to come out and share their passion with the world. I mean, it can be arts and crafts, could be different things. You know, that's the whole idea behind a third space to have a community where you're comfortable around, where you're not in your head all day, where you're not doom scrolling in bed, you can unplug, come in here. You know, it's a, it's a chill vibe, it's community and social if you want it, but if you don't, you can also figure out a different hobby that that gives you that dopamine hit instead of tiktok. Um, so that's that's where we're from, that's where we're coming from, that's where we've been, uh, based in community for for the last six years, um, and just continuing that journey, and now we're happy to have a brick and mortar space where we can host these events, um, encourage the community to come out and engage in their community, not just through arts and crafts but through different events that will help the community advertise and just provide that anchor in the sunset.

Jessica Ho:

That really captures the heart of it. Great job, Stephen, Great Well. Thank you, Carmen and Stephen, for sharing your inspiring journey with us. What a lovely couple. Sunset Commons is more than just a cafe. It's a limited cafe, but it's also an art space, a third space and a testament to the power of community and creativity. Irving Street on 17th and Irving there right next to the Golden Gate Park. Explore their workshops and perhaps find a new hobby or passion. So now to shift gears a little bit. We're moving on to then to trivia. All right, let's do this. Question number one which Wubbles brand became popular for making witchcraft more accessible to total beginners? A Embroidery, B Weaving, C Crocheting or D Needle felting, Crochet?

Steven Lee:

C Crocheting.

Jessica Ho:

See, you guys know that's correct, right? Yeah, great, the Wubbles made Amigurumi crochet super beginning friendly with cute animal kits in a just-learn-a-little-loop approach that went viral on TikTok. Claymoo is known for its viral videos featuring which of the following A Hyper-realistic miniature furniture. B Whimsical air-dry clay characters. C Resin ocean art or D Giant pottery wheel challenges Air-dry clay. It's B, yes, it is. The answer is B Whimsical air-dry clay characters. Claymoo's squishy little clay characters are handmade, oddly satisfying to watch, and often include fun accessories like tiny hats and eggshells. Two out of three, pretty good. So last question which of the following is a real subscription box that delivers monthly do-it-yourself art and craft products straight to your door? A Craftify Club. B Art Sparkle. C Maker Crate or D Glue Company.

Steven Lee:

That's tough. I feel like there's a few of these out there. I'm gonna say B.

Carmen Lee:

I'm gonna say A.

Jessica Ho:

Cover or base is A, the answer is C Maker Crate, offered by KiwiCo. Maker Crate focuses on hands-on, creative products like punch, needle art, terrazzo trays and sculptural paper design perfect for crafty adults. All right, that's it for this episode and hey, if you made it this far, thank you. I would like to share for people who are here that I have a quick life update before we go. I'm in the middle of switching brokerages, which is a big move for me as I learn more about real estate and really understand, kind of how to be a new agent and really help my clients get what they need and get the home that they dream of or be able to sell for the price that they're dreaming of. So yeah, that's been a lot of work on in the back end that I don't talk about that much in the podcast yet, but I've been thinking a lot about how on in the back end that I don't talk about that much in the podcast yet, but I've been thinking a lot about how this podcast fits into all of that. For listeners of the pod, you know that I tried doing a realty rundown and this will become more of a real estate focused podcast.

Jessica Ho:

I guess I also made it to a thousand podcast downloads. So thanks everyone who's listened. I really appreciate all of you guys and I really appreciate the advice or the feedback you give me. So, as we continue on this journey together, let me know what you want to hear. Otherwise I'm gonna be, you know, sharing more about my own life and how it affects me, and what I'm learning, and sharing it with you all. So, yeah, from the sunset to wherever you are, talk to you guys soon. Bye.

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