The Truth About Fulfillment: Good Intentions, Real Effort, No Guarantees

Welcome to the first episode of Sappy Hour — where the conversations are honest, the feelings are unfiltered, and the wisdom comes wrapped in Vans.

In this debut episode, JB Copeland sits down with the internet’s favorite soft-spoken boss, Tim Chiusano — a corporate executive turned poetic truth-teller — to talk about what actually creates a fulfilling life.

They dive into:

•Why fulfillment can feel so out of reach (even when life looks good)

•The difference between self-awareness and self-absorption

•How to become a friend to yourself first

•Why your effort and intention matter more than your outcome

•What it means to live with curiosity, presence, and a little bit of faith

Whether you’re burnt out, trying to “figure it out,” or just need something real in your ears — this conversation might just change your pace.

Thanks for tuning in to JB Copeland's Sappy Hour.

If it moved you, made you think, or made you feel less alone — share it with someone you care about.

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Transcript

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Up next on sappy radio, 44.4 on your FM dial a little JB, Copeland. He's not licensed, but he's definitely listening. This is sappy hour. You Yeah, welcome to the very first ever episode of sappy hour brought to you by intelligent change. And I'm really excited about today's episode, guys, because I got to interview someone that I really look up to, and that taught me so much in this conversation. He's known as the Mr. Rogers of the corporate space. He was an executive at a huge company where he oversaw hundreds of employees, and he got famous doing it. I found him during 2020, during the middle of COVID on social media, and it was like the boss that I've always wanted, and I have a little write up for him. Here we go. He's a corporate executive who wears vans, writes poetry on his lunch breaks, and talks to millions of strangers, like their old friends. He didn't set out to become a creator. He just started telling the truth, the truth about work, the truth about being a dad, the truth about being a boss and overseeing so many people, and about trying to stay present when the world is on fire. And it turns out, people were craving that exactly. So today, we're sitting down with the internet's favorite working dad, existential commentator, and soft spoken boss of all bosses, the amazing Tim chisano, you're gonna love it. We're gonna start off with the get closer cards by intelligent change. And I have a question for you, and you have a question for me. We picked them. I don't know your question. You don't know my question. You wanna go first? You want me to go first, first? I gotta say, I love the fact that we have the dating series is like the card like, these are, these are dope, by the way. I, I thumbed through them. It was kind of a difficult choice. I know as to which one to go with. They're cool. I gotta keep these. I gotta keep this at home for Kelly and I, I got, I got some extra so, all right, I'll give you some please. So you, how about you ask me first and then, and then I'll ask you. All right, it's a deal. So I chose if you could be friends with anyone in the world who would your top choices be good? That's a hard question. I'll tell you why, as you think about it for a second. Yeah, tell me why I feel like a lot of people would love to be your friend, and I think that that's an amazing way that you express yourself, and that what you get in return from what I've seen in your content, what I've seen your comments, and that you have this openness because of the things you talk about, how openly you Talk about them. So I thought to flip it around a little bit to get, from your perspective, who are the people that would be dope to not just know or have a dinner with, but to be friendly with would be a be an interesting one. This is not, I'm not trying to have a cliche answer, but like this is truly what I'm trying to like work through in my life is, and I think the first answer is, is myself, I appreciate that and to be a friend to myself, yeah, because, I mean, I think performance is both of Our backgrounds, me in sports and influencing, or whatever, whatever this is. And you with, you know, the corporate job. And it's like, sometimes I find myself actually, like 90, 95% of the time I find myself not being a friend to me, yeah, and it, and it, it's just detrimental to the the gratitude that I could feel towards myself in my life. And I think, I think that's the answer to question and, and I don't want it to sound like a selfish answer, because I think there's so many people that I want to be friends with, yeah, but I think I will never find those people until I find a way, and I'm still trying to figure it out, until I find a way to, like consistently befriend myself, because when I don't, and I haven't even in the last two years, Like it's isolating you, that isolates me totally because I'm so in my head. And it is, it is self centered. It is these thoughts of like I'm not good enough or whatever. And so it's almost like this subconscious block off to create external friends and the people that are looking. For for me, because I can't come to the terms with the fact that I'm I'm worthy of my own friendship. My wife actually showed me a video the other day, and it was about how when it comes to healing, we we can become so self centered. And as I talk and as I've looked back in my life, and as I reflect, it's like there is some self centeredness to it, and I think that there has to be some, you know, there has to be some choosing of self in this process, whether it's but at the same time, one of the best ways to maybe become content in the moment is to get out of self and focus on others and not be so like, why am I letting this thought or this thread throughout my life that I've like? Why am I letting this take away my joy from right now? And how can I, how can I get out of this? Well, it's, it's gratitude, and it's, it's thinking about other people. And and, so even the question that you asked is, who? Who would you want to be your friend? Yep, and for me to answer me, that is a, if you think about it as a selfish response. Would you say? Or no, it's, it's a logical response. I would say, Could some people call it selfish? Of course, but people are going to call all kinds of things, all kinds of things. Yeah, have their own reasons for calling them that, right? That's based off of their perception or their perspective on the matter. I don't think that it's selfish, though, because you're right in that if we're not friends with ourselves first and foremost, then we're screwed, right? It makes everything else incredibly more difficult. We're probably also being far too judgmental of other people as well, because we have issues that we have not come to terms with ourselves, and then you start to cast that on other people on a day to day basis, when really you are the problem there. It's not the other person, it's not your judgment of them. Plus, there's that perspective of, if a friend called and said, Hey, I have these problems, or I did something wrong, your response to them, I think a lot of people suffer from this is going to be different than what your response is to your response is to yourself, right? I did something wrong, and therefore I'm beat myself up for X, Y and Z reasons. But you wouldn't tell your friend that, right? You wouldn't be like, that was stupid. Why'd you do that? You most people are like, that was stupid. Why did I do that? That's not helpful. Yeah, to your other point, like you, you nailed it from, you know, I've got 17 years on you, and I've never seen an instance where it's actually helpful to go to is it helpful to be thoughtful and to be considerate in hindsight, so that you can learn from something absolutely and when I was struggling with this, especially over the summer, it came back to is this actually a good use of time to have these thoughts right now? And in 9.9 cases out of 10, the answer is no, because you're just literally wasting time thinking about things that are not helpful are toxic for yourself, that are sending you backwards relative to problem solving or creativity. So I actually think it's a super smart answer to say yourself, and the goal at the end would be, I'm a friend. I'm a friend to me, so I can be a true friend to others totally and a better friend others too, like you can. I would say you can be a true friend to others, but you can be a way better friend to others when you're truly a friend to yourself. First and foremost, I'm gonna ask you my question, and I'm just, I'm honestly just curious, and it is, do you believe in God, the universe or a higher power? Wow, that's an amazing question. It's actually one that I know the answer to, so it's helpful that you went with one that I don't have to sit here and be like, Well, wait, let me think about that. The answer is, I do not know, and I'm totally okay with that. I honestly I don't know if there's God. My assumption is that there is some sort of higher power, that there is something that sparks the magic that is somewhat unexplainable in either scientific terms, or it even might have some sort of scientific explanation behind it that I'm just not aware of, because science is pervasive, in my humble opinion, but it just feels too magical to other worldly at times, and that could just be a sunset, that could be a flower, that could be a feeling, that could be a conversation with my daughter. You. That has an element to it, that, to me, gives me enough doubt in regards to there not being a god, but at the same time too, I don't know. I don't I just, I don't know, yeah, I would say that there's a a positive Guiding Light, I think, is a very healthy thing to keep in the back of your mind that can help bring that how can I be a friend of myself? Piece together that's not numbing, that's just giving you that understanding, my mom loved to say, and this has stuck with me forever. You have two choices in life. You can have a good time or you can have a bad time. She said that to me in the middle of having a bit of a kid moment when I was like, five or six and other kids showed up to play at my rock in Central Park, and I was an only child that was like, This is my rock. Like, why are other kids on my rock? And my mom was like, you've got two choices. You can have a good time or a bad time, and that has stuck with me throughout so I think that, yeah, you know. So there's one you draw your faith or hope from a positive Guiding Light, totally. I think that that is beautifully put. And then you can get into the conversation philosophically, of like, well, is there like, a negative Guiding Light or guiding darkness? I've, I've got, I've got a thought on that. Okay, and this comes from actually studying executive coaching. Oddly enough, there's two types of energy in the world. There's anabolic and there's catabolic. Anabolic is the positive energy. Catabolic is the negative energy. From there, there's a whole bunch of different ways that we can sort through that and then utilize it on a day to day basis. But I think from a guiding light perspective, there's something to be said that can go back to, if there's two types of energy at the you know, speaking very broadly, then that can at least give us a sense of where is where our day to day choices, and how are we directing that with the things we're doing, what we can control, what we cannot control. And I think that that can help set up a really positive day, a really positive interaction, or give you a better sense as to how do I deal with this situation, be it a text message that's annoying or some sort of bigger conundrum or emergency that you need to deal with two types of energy. I want to try to be in the anabolic state as much as humanly possible, based off of what is, what potential exists. And again, that can be something super small or like really, really big. And that helps me consistently when it comes to you can have a good time or you can have a bad time, okay, but then how do you actually sort through that? What are the actionable steps there? And this is part of where my corporate brain starts to kick in a little bit to get more the specific like decision making elements as to, okay, well, then what are you going to do about this thing, having spent a long time trying to solve other people's problems and business problems holistically, you want to cut to the chase super fast, and a lot you want to digest, and you want to be smart and thoughtful, but at the same time too, you want to be specific and intentional with like, what can we actually do here? And to me, that made it easy. And now that I'm not in the corporate space on on a daily basis anymore, there are some things too, that, just in the higher sense of anabolic versus catabolic, do help me, relative to how I just show up and how I interact, and how do I immediately be like, Oh, 1,000% I'm Coming to Dallas and like, whatever the specifics are, logistics, we'll sort through that. But let's, let's go towards that positive Guiding Light. I love that. So I think my follow up question, so we're done with the question cards, so we're good, all right, but I have a follow up and I really what you're saying leads into what I was gonna ask you. But I think all of us, deep down, simply put, we want to choose that good energy. I want to have a good time, not a bad time. Yeah, and I think that's what a lot of people want, is to figure out, how do I have a good time? And maybe it's like not complicated, and I don't think that it is. But for you, how do you have a good time? That's a great question. It's actually way more jarring than the first question, how do I have a good time? It is. It has to be a balance of to your and, if to your answer, being friendly with myself, and to use that as a counterbalance to well, what does good look like for this thing? And that could be for how I wake up, for how I get down the stairs, like I can then break that down into micro instances throughout the course of a day, and then what are my choices in those moments? What are my choices when I wake up, when the alarm goes off, hit snooze, go back to bed, be in a bad mood, stub my toe. Maybe that's not a choice. I just do it anyway, like there's all of those things that then become these, like micro instances of where you're choosing one or the other, and allowing ourselves to understand that those are actually choices and that these things are not happening to you. I think a place where people get stuck is to assume that there is no choice in the matter. When I was at ESPN, they brought this guy in because there were some challenges between the marketing team and the sales team, and like it was almost a relationship manager of sorts for corporate situations, and he was giving the speech about choice, right? How many times do we in a given day, whether it's work, whether it's family, are like, Well, I didn't have a choice, or you feel like you don't have a choice in the moment and that you're going to then do something based off of circumstances, and not necessarily like, this is how I'm going to control the situation, even if it's not control, it's how are you going to guide or how are you going to accept the fact that you can choose? And so he's talking about choice, and tells a story of giving the same speech at another company, and somebody stands up and is like, this is a crock of shit. Like, there are some things in life that you absolutely do not have a choice about. I was drafted into Vietnam. I had to go to boot camp. They taught me how to fire a gun. I got on a plane. They sent me over there. I got off. I was in war. I shot a gun. I killed people. Like I did not have a choice. And apparently, as the story was told, guy stops dead in his tracks, and he's like, oh shit, I actually I had a choice. I may not have liked what my choices were, but I guess I could have gone to jail. I could have moved to Canada, I could have tried to run away from this and get my fingers crossed I don't get caught. I chose to accept being drafted, and I chose, and it's an extreme story, but I think the point of we always have a choice, I shouldn't say always, in a vast majority of situations, on a day in and day out basis, we are going to have a choice. We may not like the choices that we have, but they're always there. I don't have to go home after this. I could go back to the airport and be like, spin a globe. I'm going there and bounce. Not gonna do that. 1,000% gonna go back to Brooklyn and be super stoked when I walk back in the door to see my family. But we've so often pin ourselves in these situations where you just don't have a choice. And that could be I didn't have a choice but to wake up today at this time to do that thing, to go to that job that I do not like, and I think once you accept that you do have a choice and far more situations, and you give yourself credit for then that can be one of the places where you start to free yourself. When I was in some of the darkest places at my job, and felt like all of these things were happening to me. I'm overwhelmed. I've got too much work. There's too much pressure. I've got a toxic situation happening for whole bunch of different reasons. Talked about some of that in the car too, and this is just happening to me, and I'm just going to be that guy that gets a nice compensation package and like, I'll just kind of go down that path and kind of numb myself to these other things, versus, oh, no wait, I actually have a choice in this matter. It's going to mean getting up at four o'clock in the morning every day and doing these things and setting myself up this way to try to control things. And I'm not guaranteed an outcome with that either. So it's okay. You have to be okay to accept the fact that you do have a choice when it's really, really hard to be like, actually, I can choose here, to choose the more difficult path, or to accept the fact that you even can go down that route and then, and then be okay with the fact that that doesn't mean it's guaranteed either, like, Okay, I'm going to choose to control the situation that I'm in, to try to change the fact that it's a toxic environment, and I'm guaranteed nothing by making that choice, right? Because you want to believe you either don't have a choice, so that when you make that choice, x is going to happen, if you can be like, cool, I have choices, and I have no idea what's actually going to come of this that at least for me, and especially in like in the work circumstances I found myself in, became extraordinarily freeing. It's like, you ain't in control. I'm in control. At a poster. My office that said, think someone under the table, and that was very important to me, because I needed to remind myself consistently that I can have as much control as I want to give myself credit for, and I would never do it in a mean way. I mean, I'm on the record and got you know, a lot of content that shows how I interacted. My team even made me a Tiktok when I left. And I'm very comfortable saying I did things the right way. In large part, you had a good time and a good time, and I was pleasant, and like that was my number my number one KPI work. And I didn't think about this until I was leaving. Was like being as pleasant as humanly possible, and being okay to have the understanding that there's a choice you don't know what the hell is gonna happen, and then to be pleasant throughout, to me that like, just unlocked all of these things that led to me being okay with making content and being more awkward and kind of climbing cringe mountain, as they say, in all of those things, being like, I'm choosing to do this. I don't know where the hell it's going, and that's okay, and as long as I'm pleasant along the way, then, like, Let's go have a rip and have fun. I love that. Yeah, I think it's crazy to me as you're saying that, like, just my own reflection of the amount of times I can play stuff, stuff off and say it's out of my control. Really what, what I feel like you're saying is, is you have the permission to be honest with yourself, and you have the permission to make the decision that you feel like is the best decision for you. And those decisions aren't just big decisions, but they're micro decisions throughout your day to day basis. Totally, I think you should give yourself more credit in regards to that like choice and control piece, because I think what you talk about is relative to because there's also the the understanding, while you may have these choices, you may not give yourself enough credit for choices on a day to day basis, there's also a just like a vast majority of the world, that's out of your control on a consistent basis. Yeah, and you in you like, you have to accept that, right, because then you can be more specific and intentional with what can I actually choose? You can't be you can't say, Well, I have a choice in regards to how I change that person. You have a choice in regards to how you interact with that person. Self control your what you what you can control relative to just what's on your side of the table, right? And then it and then it even makes it easier for those things that you don't, you don't get to choose what their response is, right? I think that that's the delineation I've always felt like when you have that conversation that you're you give that distinction because there is so much that you do have to let go of in that regard? Yeah, and that's what you said. You said, you know you're going to be making these choices, and you might be, they might be choices that everyone else is like, why would you make that choice? But then you also have to let go of the outcome. And I think that's where faith and hope comes in to the picture. And so it's not only is it thinking someone under the table, or believing that you're smart and believing that you have the ability to make these decisions and that you can be in control of your life, but it's also having faith in the future. Yeah, and it always came down to me, especially when I had the biggest questions of doubt for myself. Why am I doing this? Why am I making that decision? Why am I pushing towards something from a business perspective, how am I acting as a dad? Are my intentions good and are my efforts solid? That's good. And if I could check those two boxes, I have to be okay with the vast majority of the things that are around that, because otherwise, to your earlier point of like being friends with yourself, if I can't, if, if I'm checking those boxes, and I'm still restricting myself or being too hard on myself, Then you're taking trying off the table. And I think when we do that, that's when it becomes super dangerous. And if I ever take trying off the table, then I got nothing, right? Then I'm not trying to whether it's a really small thing, like, you know what I would select to go for a run before I get on the plane to come to Dallas, or to wrap my head around cool I've just been traveling, but I really want to do like and those things, especially when compounded over time. I think the luxury of being 47 now is having seen things repeated over and over and over again, and seeing. The cumulative effect of some of the things that we're discussing right now, and that those decisions, especially, it's like the same thing as a diet or working out or meditation, you're never going to see an immediate result, but over time and compounded, it can be beyond your wildest dreams. And so some of those decisions, and especially that, like, ability to let go, but also be cool with fully accepting what you can and cannot choose to have some sort of impact on accepting the fact you have choice letting go of like, what that choice may actually do outcome wise, then you're just like, cool, I'm got, I got, what I got. Let's roll and let's have some fun. Good intentions. Yeah, I Yeah. So you said effort, yep. And are your intentions? Is my effort and my intentions? And so I think, I think that right there is an answer to my question and an answer for a lot of people. And it's, it's simple, like, because even having this conversation makes me feel better about myself, good, because I think all of us can question our intentions at times, but at the end of the day, like, I know my intentions are pure and I know that I'm putting in effort, and then in the in between of that, waiting on the outcome or whatever, even if it's not waiting, I just need to be living and enjoying, kind of like you're saying, choose it. Let's choose the good, but like I can let off the pressure, because I know that my intention and my effort is there. Yeah, sappy hour is brought to you by intelligent change. They're amazing. I love them because they stand on business and they mean what they say. And on top of that, they create some awesome, amazing products. Okay, y'all probably already. Y'all know what these are. These are the get closer cards, because we open our podcast, or at least at some point in the podcast, I asked someone a question from this card deck, so they have the get closer cards, couples edition, amazing for couples that want to get closer, they have the get closer cards. Dating edition, when you need a freaking icebreaker because the date got just a little bit awkward and you're sweating and you don't know what to do, and you're having a small freak out. Yeah, it's your best friend here. And then they just have the Let's get closer cards. I don't know. There is no version of this one. It's just, let's get closer. And then this is for your pocket. You can take this anywhere, put it in your back pocket, like you do your wallet. And literally, anytime that you feel very awkward in any situation, just pull it out and just be like, pick a card, and that person can pick that card. And let's I'm gonna act this out. They're gonna pick a card, and they'll say, what helps you get through tough times? And then you would say, these tabletop cards. Do these? Let's get closer. Cards help me get through a tough time, because it makes me feel like less of an awkward person. Get these. They're awesome. I I highly recommend. It actually, really helps me with a guest that I don't really know, to open the conversation up with it's just, it's nice to have some something help me to start conversation, because conversation is what brings connection, and connection brings intimacy, and intimacy brings beautiful loving relationships that give you so much and that bring you so much so. Link is in the description, sappy hour 10 is the code. Make sure you use the code, okay, 10% off. Save your money. Love you guys. What you have is a high level of presentness and awareness, to be able to be so grounded and so here that you're not there or there. If that makes sense, it makes total sense, and it came back to the acceptance of what I could control and what I could control and what I could not control, especially having to go from meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting. And it really stemmed from how do I want to behave and how do I want to impact other people? And I saw there being a massive lack of self awareness in a lot of situations that I was in at work, and that rose that brought all kinds of questions to mind, of like, why is that happening? Is there something here that I'm missing, where that that's like a necessary piece of being successful, you almost have to create this persona, and then you have to be out. Inside of yourself and not as present and not as aware in order to do big, difficult things, because then you're pushing towards something. It's like you created this character, this avatar, and that's the thing that's driving things forward, versus being okay to be like, No, this is who I am and like, this is how I want to behave, and these are the situations I would like to create and digesting that a lot made me and I'm just kind of, I've got a bit of a stoner mindset, and I love it. I I get so curious as to not only why is this person in a bad mood or acting this way in this meeting, but why did they choose that shirt? But not today. It's like, why did they go to the store and like they looked around? They're like, cool, that one. And I try to connect all those pieces together to get a better understanding as to who the people are that are around me, so I can meet them where they are on a consistent basis, because then I can control the dynamic, which sounds odd, and I don't use the think someone under the table, or the control the dynamic, or the mental jujitsu. Your intentions are good, yeah, because my intentions are good and i just i It allows me to be more present, correct? I can then sit there and feel like, okay, cool. I have I can control what I can control. I cannot control what I cannot control. I have a good understanding of this person, both in the curiosity from a micro perspective of why did they choose that shirt, or what's what was that scene? Literally think of that scene of them at the store going through the rack and being like, cool this one, and then have that compound into how they're behaving in the moment, and at least my interpretation of it. And that's enough that would just center you and make you present anyway, right? Like that's a lot of different thoughts to try to combine into a given situation. Well, there's a selflessness to it, kind of what I brought up earlier, of your your focus is not so inward. I think that there's a difference between being self absorbed and self aware. Yep. And I think sometimes we can think that that's the same thing, yep, and, and what you're talking about is self awareness. Self absorption is, is lack of awareness because you're so in but you're saying, you're saying the way that you pre present yourself is by thinking of others I honestly love. Yeah, I hadn't thought of it that way, and you just stated it in a very brilliant and eloquent fashion that honestly had not crossed my mind quite like that. But no, you're spot on. It's and it's even, I'll give myself a little less credit in that, it's just out of genuine curiosity. And again, almost that. And it's Yeah, or the or the stoner mentality, right? Like, I think, man, that's like, that's a, that's a, you know, be like, That's a wild shirt. Man. Like, why did that person or, like, where did that come from? What was the decision, decision behind that? And it also the being present and being aware, especially as things got as chaotic as they were during the most intense times of my career. I lived at the, you know, in the midst of a of the biggest cable merger and the history of of company's existence, you know, three companies, they, all of a sudden came together and created 100,000 person company. You know, all the systems in the job descriptions and like, everything that had to get reinvented during that time, let alone the story of the Thursday before my first day on the job, when they brought me in and said, you can have to fire all 100 people that you're about to inherit and start the department from scratch. You get six weeks to make the first announcement, eight months to rebuild the department. I was 35 I was like, very much. Did not have the background. And even somebody from HR was like, I didn't think you had any shot of doing this, like on those times, and you know this could be, I'd be surprised if you didn't have elements of this in your sports career, where being present almost helps you overcome that sense of this is overwhelming, and if you think about all of the outside forces that are creating that chaos, but all you can deal with is that one play or that one player in front of you, yeah, you can't worry about whether or not the special teams is going to go then do X, Y or Z, or there's there's elements to even the training, where you can't fix your speed and your strength, maybe you can fix your speed and your strength at the same time. But there's like, there's elements of being focused, where if you're too caught in outside things, in a given moment, a you're not doing the other person any good. Fauci in meetings, right? You have a better chance of being a jerk because you're not truly able to give Okay, I am here right during my craziest days when I was trying to make all the tiktoks and trying to have eight hours of meetings and make sure I called my wife on my way to lunch. And am I thoughtful about asking how the quiz went at school. When I get home, it was whoever I'm talking to that's in my calendar that I'm having that meeting with. They don't give a shit about all of those other things. They shouldn't, and even if they're the kind of person that's like, Wow, you got 1000 things going on. Like, thank you for doing blah, blah, blah. It's like, I again, I chose to be here. I chose to be doing this thing. So it's easier almost then to block out all the rest of it and be like, cool, I'm here. I'm in this moment, and this is all I can control. And then it just kind of feels a bit lighter too. Like, oh, why? Why should I be concerned about all these things that I literally cannot control right now. And then I am more present. And then I enjoy it more too, because I'm not trying to carry around more weight than I'm capable of carrying around. Really, what I've taken from this is, are your intentions good? Are you giving effort? And are you curious? What did your mom say? Have a good time or have a bad time? Yeah. Do you want to have a good time or do you want to have a bad time? Yeah. Simply put, I think that that is maybe an answer that a lot of us have been looking for. Number one, do you want to have a good time or bad time. I'll let you choose number two, like, Let's get your intentions set. Like, what? What's fueling you? And I think it's, I think it's awesome, you know, using those quotes like, think someone under the table because your intentions are good. There's too many people in this world with very bad intentions that are thinking people under the table and screwing people. And there needs to be more people with really good intentions to understand how smart they are. And such a such a brilliant way to put it, yeah, because everybody deserves that. Yes, a little bit of Audacity. Yes, a little bit of Audacity. Yeah, and being present and finding that curiosity, I think that is a beautiful way of life. Sappy hour is brought to you by intelligent change. And guess what? I just wrote a book with intelligent change. Been working on it for about a year and a half, and I'm so excited about it. Sappy medium. The rough draft is here. It hit the market last week. So while I have you, I want to read you a quick little paragraph from the book. Tell me what you think your soul will always pull you to exactly where you belong. And I say that, and we all think, oh, you know, that sounds great, when in reality, our intuition can ask us to do uncomfortable things that often don't make sense in the moment, but if we learn to listen, even if we don't understand, life will begin to unfold in a very magical way. If you like little quotes like that and want to have something to read every single day. This is the book for you, and because you're listening, I wanna let you in on a little secret here, if you use the code sappy hour 10, you'll get 10% off all the info that you need is in the description. The link is there. The code is there. I hope sappy medium can become your little book of inspiration. I love this conversation. I really appreciate you coming to Dallas. Is there? There's one thing that you could say to the people watching, just leave them with something. What would it be give yourself benefit of the doubt when you're allowed to go back to how this conversation started with your answer about needing to be your own friend first, which is critical, when you're able to give others benefit of the doubt, you can take the high road. When you can take the high road, I think you're just you can be happier, but it has to start with yourself, right? So give yourself benefit of the doubt and and lean into it because it's yes, it's all I got. Well, thank you. I love that. Thanks for coming to sappy house powered by intelligent change. I'm going to get you a five minute journal, and I'm going to get you these closer cards, because I'd love for you to to number one, go to the journal with me, because I'm doing it, and it's something that's helping me in my hot mess. And then I think you and your wife and maybe your daughter would like to get closer cards. Oh, 1,000% journal me up and let's play some cards. Dope. Thanks, brother, yes. Thank you. And cut.