Ep 609: Disrupting Hate with Ken Schachter and guest William G Holst on hmTv

In this episode of Disrupting Hate on hmTv, host Ken Schachter welcomes William G. Holst, former assistant county attorney in Suffolk County, longtime member of the Smithtown Anti-Bias Task Force, and author of Bicentennial Trifecta. Together, they explore how bias and hate can surface even in communities that see themselves as welcoming, and why early education is essential in preventing hate from taking root.

Holst reflects on the origins of the Smithtown Anti-Bias Task Force, created after swastikas were found on a high school graduation field in Commack, and discusses the importance of school-based programs, bias-free zones, community partnerships, and helping young people understand that hateful acts are not harmless pranks, but deeply damaging messages. The conversation also touches on the changing diversity of Long Island, the challenge of proving intent in hate crime cases, and the ongoing need for local action, awareness, and education.

The episode concludes with a look at Holst’s background in journalism, law, military service, and his historical fiction novel Bicentennial Trifecta, which follows an Army journalist during America’s Bicentennial year.

Transcript

Ep 609: Disrupting Hate with Ken Schachter and Guest William G. Holst on hmTv

Series: Disrupting Hate
Episode: 609
Host: Ken Schachter
Guest: William G. Holst
Platform: hmTv

[Opening]

Ken Schachter:
Hello, and thank you for joining me today. I’m your host, Ken Schachter, and on today’s episode of Disrupting Hate on hmTv, my special guest, William G. Holst, will join me for a conversation exploring practical strategies to combat bias in schools.

Bill Holst served as an assistant county attorney in Suffolk County and spent decades as a member of the Town of Smithtown Anti-Bias Task Force. He is also the author of Bicentennial Trifecta and received degrees from New York University in Journalism and St. John’s University School of Law.

But first, Bill, let’s start with a little geography for our listeners who are not familiar with Long Island. Suffolk is one of two counties that constitute what is known in these parts as Long Island. The other is Nassau. And of course, at the western end of Long Island are the New York City boroughs of Brooklyn and Queens.

So please describe Smithtown and the Anti-Bias Task Force on which you served.

William G. Holst:
Well, first, it’s nice to be with you, Ken.

As a county legislator, I used to always say there are three townships in Nassau County and ten in Suffolk County. Nassau County is about 16 miles wide, and Suffolk County is considerably longer, almost a hundred more miles to get out to Montauk.

Ken Schachter:
Yes, geographically far larger, but about the same population.

William G. Holst:
Yes. Suffolk is ahead of Nassau. Suffolk County has about 1.5 million people. Nassau has about 1.4 million. Suffolk County, at 1.5 million, has about the same population as Manhattan, but Manhattan is considerably smaller.

Ken Schachter:
Of course. So tell us a little bit about where Smithtown fits into all that.

William G. Holst:
Smithtown is sort of in the center of Long Island. Suffolk has a couple of bays and harbors, but Smithtown Bay is basically a good portion of the northern middle part of Long Island. You can look out and see Connecticut from the beaches in Smithtown.

Ken Schachter:
So it’s on the north end. Tell us a little bit about the Anti-Bias Task Force on which you served.

William G. Holst:
The creation of the task force goes back to around the late 1980s or early 1990s, when an incident happened during a high school graduation in Commack. It was an outdoor event, and during the middle of the night, somebody came and put, I think, two swastikas on the field.

People got there and were aghast. They said, “Wait a minute, this is something that really shouldn’t be tolerated in a community that is a mixture of people.”

So the Town of Smithtown formed the Smithtown Anti-Bias Task Force. There was a reporter from Newsday, an award-winning journalist named Bob Green, who was one of the original members. For a couple of reasons, he had to get off the task force, and then one of the town council people asked me to consider joining.

I had been president of the local school board, so maybe that was one of the reasons she asked me to join. I was also active with the Smithtown Chamber of Commerce.

Ken Schachter:
How does bias show up in communities that otherwise seem welcoming? I’m sure this came as a shock to people in Smithtown.

William G. Holst:
Yes, especially because there is a very large and significant population of people of the Jewish faith in the Commack area. So it was really something people were very surprised to see.

Ken Schachter:
What kind of actions did the Anti-Bias Task Force take?

William G. Holst:
To deal with that incident, obviously, they removed the swastikas. Then they started asking, “What can we do as a township to make it clear that this is not going to be tolerated in Smithtown? And what can we do to educate the population, particularly the youth of the town?”

The assumption was that it was probably young people who had done this for some reason.

Ken Schachter:
Were there particular programs, substantial programs within the schools or outside the schools?

William G. Holst:
It required coordination. Over a series of years, discussions developed between members of the Smithtown Anti-Bias Task Force and representatives from the school districts. They talked about what could be done.

We weren’t really sure whether this was actual hate, ignorance, or something else. So the program developed with a focus on young people and talking about the hurt that can be created by doing things like this, things that go beyond simply being insensitive.

Ken Schachter:
We’ve come a long way since then in terms of people having channels for hate speech. Have you noticed changes in the nature of bias or hate incidents over the past years?

William G. Holst:
During the time I served on the Smithtown Anti-Bias Task Force, there were only a few really glaring things that seemed organized in Suffolk County.

One required the district attorney’s office. I think it was in the late 1990s, when I was a county legislator. People were going into neighborhoods out east, in places like Shoreham in Brookhaven Town, and dropping leaflets. It looked like a neo-Nazi or Ku Klux Klan type of operation.

They weren’t really going after one particular group. It was more like the Ku Klux Klan going after people of color, Jewish people, Asians, and others. It was basically some sort of nationalistic, back-to-the-1950s type of thing.

Ken Schachter:
Sort of a white nationalism type group.

Why is it important to address these issues early on before they gain momentum?

William G. Holst:
We certainly don’t want young people thinking that it’s a prank to deface property and do something that targets any particular group.

There were programs started by the Suffolk County Police Department. When some younger people went to court, programs were set up so they could receive training and understand that this is not something socially acceptable in a community of people with different faiths and backgrounds.

Ken Schachter:
Of course. I think Long Island has become more diverse over the years.

William G. Holst:
Very definitely. Our local daily paper, Newsday, was talking about the difference between 1973, when the Knicks first won their championship, and 2026. Especially Spanish-speaking people have increased significantly throughout the towns in Suffolk County and Nassau County. That has been a significant change.

When I was a county legislator, we actually signed a consent decree with the Department of Justice regarding the way police interacted with Spanish-speaking people.

Ken Schachter:
So there were questions about law enforcement propriety in terms of dealing with minorities.

William G. Holst:
Right. In addition to being a member of the Smithtown Anti-Bias Task Force, I also participated for a couple of years as a member of the Suffolk County Anti-Bias Task Force.

We regularly had members of the Suffolk County Police Department come in and talk about bias incidents and how some of them rose to the level of being crimes. That was a big distinction.

A lot of people might go to a park and see something placed there that was more than inappropriate and actually targeted a particular group. But if it was done in chalk or something that washed away, it might not rise to the level of being a hate crime.

So the actual number of hate crimes investigated while I was on the Smithtown Anti-Bias Task Force was pretty limited.

There was, I think, a burning of a cross at someone’s house. I believe it involved a couple where one member of the couple, I forget whether it was the husband or the wife, was a person of color. It was never really determined who did it or what the motivation was.

That is another problem with hate crimes. You have to prove intent.

Ken Schachter:
What trends concern you most about the local climate today, and perhaps the online climate as well?

William G. Holst:
In terms of bias incidents, I think there has been tracking that says in the last couple of years there have probably been more incidents of people saying they felt they were being targeted.

But I don’t know that the number of hate crimes has increased that much in a way that could be prosecuted. It is very difficult unless they identify the person or people and ask them why they did it, and the person acknowledges that the intent was criminal. It is very hard to pursue those cases.

Ken Schachter:
Is there any way to measure success in this kind of work? I know the FBI comes out with data on hate crimes, but at the lower level, there are probably many other hate incidents as well.

William G. Holst:
One of the things we did that I think was most significant with the Smithtown Anti-Bias Task Force was that we had discussions with the school districts about what could be done.

The thought was that the best thing would be to make sure young people had a sense that what they were doing was hurtful.

We had some success. This was all pre-COVID, because I don’t know whether the effort to create bias-free zones is still active. But prior to COVID, we would have a presentation at the end of the year for students who did artwork that talked about inclusion and tolerance.

We would work with the local Chamber of Commerce to give out awards. We invited the students and parents, and presentations were made. There was recognition for the young people who helped make others aware of bias-free zones and of the fact that certain actions are not just pranks, but can be hurtful to someone.

Ken Schachter:
Take us into that a little bit. What was, or what is, a bias-free zone, and how do you create it?

William G. Holst:
It was done through the schools. We helped direct it, but we did not actually go into the schools.

In Smithtown, we have two school districts entirely within the township. Then we have two that are partly in the Town of Smithtown. One is partly in the Town of Huntington, and one is partly in the Town of Islip. There is also a tiny piece of another school district that is in Brookhaven.

We left it to the teaching staff and administration of the schools to come up with a program, whether it was an art program or something written, talking about how someone may have had a friend who felt marginalized by something that happened to them, and how they stayed with that person and helped them feel better about themselves.

That is really what we don’t want. We don’t want students feeling marginalized and worrying about these things. We want them to be able to focus and achieve what they can academically.

Ken Schachter:
Did you also have contact with minority community leaders or religious leaders?

William G. Holst:
Absolutely. Initially in Smithtown, the chairperson was the head of the Suffolk County NAACP. She was very cognizant of what can happen in the town.

I happened to know her from when I was a kid. I went to school with her son. They were the first Black family to move into the neighborhood. I can remember somebody leaving the neighborhood and saying they didn’t want to live in a neighborhood that was Black.

But to everybody’s credit, that family moved in. They were the only Black family on that street, and 30 years later they were still the only Black family on the street, and nobody else had moved, just that one family.

Ken Schachter:
Long Island, in the early days, had a reputation as being largely white, people who had some connection to New York City perhaps, but had decided to live in the suburbs. But now the suburbs are quite different.

William G. Holst:
They have changed very dramatically.

Fortunately, in Smithtown we have very good school districts. That is an attraction. In the development where my daughter and son-in-law live, there are a couple of Black families that have moved in.

I think one person was a police officer in New York City, and he wanted a backyard with a pool. He got his pool in his backyard.

Ken Schachter:
Absolutely. Long Island school districts are another big attraction for people moving out to the suburbs. They want trees, they want a pool, they want a school district. That is definitely it.

Looking ahead, when future generations look back, what do you hope they will say about efforts to combat bias on Long Island?

William G. Holst:
The hope would be that there are fewer and fewer young people who think that doing something that indicates hatred toward a group is acceptable.

I have a grandson whose godparents are both from Jamaica. They live in a suburban neighborhood, and they like the schools their children are going to.

I think it is a transitional thing. It doesn’t happen overnight in terms of attitudes. But in general, not in every case, I think the suburbs now are more welcoming than they were 30 or 40 years ago.

Ken Schachter:
That is significant.

While we’re here, why don’t we talk a little bit about your book?

William G. Holst:
Okay.

Ken Schachter:
Since I get to hold up my book.

William G. Holst:
You get to hold up your book.

Bicentennial Trifecta: Patriots for the American Evolution is about an Army journalist.

Ken Schachter:
Like you.

William G. Holst:
Like me.

Ken Schachter:
Tell us again about your Army journalism experience.

William G. Holst:
After I graduated from NYU and started looking for journalism jobs in 1974, there really weren’t any.

Out of high school, I had gone to the United States Merchant Marine Academy for a year, and I went all over the Far East. It was pretty exciting as an 18-year-old. But I knew I wanted to go to law school.

After coming back from sea, I said, “I think I have to do something more in the humanities rather than learning about the maritime industry.”

So I wasn’t afraid of going into the Army and being a journalist. I went to Fort Dix for basic training, and then I went on to the Defense Information School, which was a combination of all the different branches of the service. We had Air Force people, Navy, Marines, and Army.

I ended up graduating as the Distinguished Honor Graduate and getting assigned to a newspaper at Fort Knox, Kentucky.

I had never lived that far south. I grew up on Long Island. I’m actually an eleventh-generation Smithtown resident on my mother’s side. My mother’s family goes back to Richard “Bull” Smith, the legend connected to Smithtown and the bull as you enter the town.

To finish the journalism experience, I spent a little over a year at Fort Knox, Kentucky. I worked for the post paper. We laid it out on Wednesdays, and it came out every Thursday. We had a civilian enterprise newspaper in Elizabethtown, Kentucky that printed it for us.

We laid it out and wrote the stories. I had the opportunity to meet generals and go to conventions where there were NATO officers and all sorts of people. It was a good experience.

Then, for the last year, I got orders to go to Japan. I was an Army journalist in Japan. I got to climb Mount Fuji and write a story about it. That was fun.

Ken Schachter:
Fantastic. Now bring us forward to writing your book.

William G. Holst:
I was very fortunate when I got out of the Army. First, I had to go to St. John’s Law School and get settled, finding a place in Queens to live because I was going to St. John’s.

When I registered, there was a sign-up saying CBS was looking for people from law school to come in and help on an antitrust case. I called them, and they said to come in for an interview. I went in and ended up working at CBS for a few years while I was going to law school.

They rewarded me by saying, “We usually don’t take people right out of law school, but we’re going to give you credit for being in the litigation section for years and working on some important cases.”

I worked as an attorney for about five years at CBS and represented Dan Rather and 60 Minutes out in California as part of a trial team. That was pretty interesting.

Ken Schachter:
What prompted you to write the book?

William G. Holst:
I guess most people who have experience in journalism think in the back of their heads that someday they are going to write a novel.

I had written a script for a movie, and that wasn’t going anywhere. I spoke to someone and asked, “If I wrote a novel and people got to know that I’m a writer, would that help me maybe someday get the script produced?”

He said yes.

I asked him, “What genre do you think would be good to write about?” He said historical fiction seemed to be pretty good.

Ken Schachter:
Give us a quick synopsis.

William G. Holst:
The book starts with the Kentucky Derby in 1976. The Kentucky Derby is always the first Saturday in May.

This Army journalist then gets to go to the Preakness, which is the second race in the Triple Crown. Then he gets the idea that on July 4, 1976, he wants to be in Washington, D.C., Philadelphia, and New York City, all historic capitals of the United States.

That is what he sets out to do.

Ken Schachter:
That makes sense for the title, Bicentennial Trifecta.

Our time is up. I want to thank you for tuning in to this episode of Disrupting Hate on hmTv.

Many thanks to my guest, William G. Holst.

William G. Holst:
Thank you, Ken.

Ken Schachter:
Thank you for sharing your insights.

Be sure to subscribe, share, and stay connected for more engaging conversations.

Until next time, take care and be well.

[Closing]