Ep 641: Disrupting Hate with Kenneth Schachter and guest Adam Fuller on hmTv

In Episode 641 of Disrupting Hate on hmTv, host Kenneth Schachter speaks with Professor Adam Fuller, author of The Armed Jew: The Case for Jewish Gun Ownership and director of the Center for Judaic and Holocaust Studies at Youngstown State University.

Professor Fuller discusses why he became what he calls an “October 8 gun owner” following the Hamas attacks of October 7 and the continuing rise of antisemitism. The conversation explores why American Jews have historically been less likely to own firearms, the cultural and religious attitudes surrounding self-defense, and examples of armed Jewish resistance throughout history.

From the Maccabees and the Bielski partisans to Jewish soldiers, gangsters, lawmen, and gunslingers of the American West, Fuller challenges the stereotype of Jews as passive victims. He also examines Jewish law and rabbinic teachings on the obligation to protect life, Israel’s civilian gun policies, and the responsibilities that come with firearm ownership.

This thought-provoking episode considers the complex intersection of Jewish identity, personal security, history, faith, public safety, and responsible preparedness.

Transcript

Ep. 641: Disrupting Hate

Host Kenneth Schachter with Guest Professor Adam Fuller

hmTv

[00:32] Kenneth Schachter:
Thank you for joining me. I’m your host, Kenneth Schachter, and on today’s episode of Disrupting Hate, I’ll be joined via Zoom by Adam Fuller, a political science professor at Youngstown State University in Ohio.

Professor Fuller is the author of The Armed Jew: The Case for Jewish Gun Ownership. We’ll be discussing Jewish gun ownership, from gunslingers in the Old West to the rabbinic perspective.

Adam, welcome.

Adam Fuller:
Thank you. I’m happy to be here.

Kenneth Schachter:
Please give us some of your background and explain what brought you to the point of advocating for Jewish gun ownership.

[01:13] Adam Fuller:
As you said at the outset, I am a professor of political science. A few years ago, I took over the directorship of the Center for Judaic and Holocaust Studies at Youngstown State University. I had always been involved with the center, but at that point, I became its director and the Clayman Professor of Jewish Studies.

It was just after October 7 that I decided I needed to start practicing what I had long been preaching and become a gun owner myself. I consider myself a quote-unquote “October 8 gun owner.”

Gun ownership was something I had advocated for Jews before doing it myself, particularly in response to the rampant antisemitism that has been rising over the past 10 to 15 years. This was especially true after the Tree of Life synagogue shooting in Pittsburgh and the Poway Chabad shooting, in which people were killed and injured.

October 7 changed a great deal in my mind. I decided it was important for me to be able to protect myself. I realized that my own safety, as someone known around town as a Zionist and as the Jewish studies professor at my university, might not be guaranteed, even here in the American heartland, where things are normally considered very quiet.

After I became a gun owner and began training and learning how to operate firearms, I became interested in the broader subject of Jews and firearms. Jews are not generally known for firearm ownership. In fact, if you look at the data, Jews have one of the lowest gun-ownership rates among American demographic groups, despite having what I believe is one of the greatest needs for personal protection.

There is also an enormous amount of opposition to gun ownership within our communities. We often want guns to remain exclusively in the hands of the government, or we hire private security agencies to handle our protection. Personal firearm ownership is not something we normally believe is in our interest.

I decided to examine the history of Jews and guns and demonstrate that this modern attitude does not accurately represent the complete Jewish experience. Firearms have been integral to Jewish history in circumstances where Jews sought personal security and fought back against their persecutors.

As a scholar, I asked myself what I could contribute to the effort to encourage Jews to embrace gun ownership. I am not in a position to teach firearms training. I can leave that to others. My role as a scholar and academic is to write about it.

I decided this would be a fascinating subject for a book. The result is The Armed Jew: The Case for Jewish Gun Ownership, which combines advocacy with a considerable amount of history.

[04:50] Kenneth Schachter:
Why do you think American Jews have historically been less likely to own guns than members of some other groups? Are there cultural, religious, or historical reasons?

[05:04] Adam Fuller:
I believe there are cultural, religious, and historical reasons.

First, Jews have traditionally thought of themselves as people of books. Books are central objects in Jewish culture, not guns. We think of ourselves as learned and intellectual rather than as a physical or martial people. Therefore, firearms are not something we have generally wanted to embrace.

Israelis, of course, have had a very different experience. I am speaking primarily about Jews in the diaspora. Zionists have always recognized the importance of having the ability to fight, but that has not traditionally been the case for diaspora communities.

Religiously, you can even look at the biblical story of Jacob and Esau. Jacob, whose descendants became the Jewish people, is described as someone who abides in tents. Esau is described as a man of the field. From the beginning of our history, Jews have often been characterized as intellectual rather than physical people.

Unfortunately, Jews have also frequently come to associate firearms with our persecutors. If skinheads and neo-Nazis have guns, then we want nothing to do with those infernal contraptions.

We tend to believe that guns should be held only by the government and that the government should maintain a monopoly on violence, as the sociologist Max Weber described it. We see firearms as tools belonging to other people, not to us.

[07:22] Kenneth Schachter:
It happens that we are recording this on the eve of Tisha B’Av, the anniversary of the destruction of the First and Second Temples and a date associated with several other tragedies in Jewish history.

What historical examples most strongly challenge the stereotype of Jews as passive victims? When have Jews picked up arms and defended themselves?

[08:01] Adam Fuller:
Unfortunately, passivity has often been the norm in our history. However, there have also been periods when the opposite was true, and those were often the circumstances in which Jews were more successful in standing up for their interests.

You can go back to ancient stories about the Maccabees or Simon Bar Kokhba. They obviously did not have guns, but they used the weapons available to them.

In the modern era, there are several famous examples. Movies have been made about the Bielski brothers, the Jewish partisans in Belarus who fought against the Nazis.

In America, you can also examine the rise of Jewish organized crime. I have an entire chapter in my book about Jewish gangsters such as Meyer Lansky and Benjamin “Bugsy” Siegel, although Siegel hated that nickname. I also discuss members of Murder, Inc. and several lesser-known Jewish gangsters who stood up against neo-Nazis and members of the Ku Klux Klan to protect Jewish interests.

There are also many lesser-known stories that I find fascinating. Personally, I have always been a fan of Westerns. We do not normally think of the American West as a place with a significant Jewish population, because there were relatively few Jews there.

When we do think about Jewish contributions to the American West, we usually imagine tycoons, merchants, moneylenders, or local political officials. However, there were also some fascinating Jewish gunslingers.

I address two of them in my book. One was an outlaw and the other was a lawman. Jews were represented on both sides of the law, which I find to be a fascinating part of the story.

There are also accounts of Jews serving as soldiers in armies throughout the world, especially in the United States. Military service has often provided a context in which American Jews became more integrated with non-Jewish members of society.

That is where other Americans got to know Jews and realized that we were not the timid intellectual weaklings they may have imagined us to be. It is a significant and fascinating part of Jewish history that I believe many readers will appreciate.

I also discuss vigilante groups that emerged later in the 20th century, including the Jewish Defense League and the philosophy espoused by Meir Kahane.

I am not a Kahanist, and I do not endorse everything he stood for, but he promoted Jewish gun ownership. His famous line was, “For every Jew, a .22.” I do not necessarily recommend a .22, but I believe the underlying idea has merit.

It is important for Jews not to cower. We should stand up, protect ourselves, and possess the means to defend our lives if necessary. That does not mean starting fights. It means being capable of protecting ourselves.

[12:16] Kenneth Schachter:
My grandfather owned a Turkish bath in Brooklyn, and according to family lore, members of Murder, Inc. used to stash their guns there.

On another note, what do rabbinic texts and Jewish law say about the obligation to protect life? How do you connect that tradition to firearm ownership?

[12:52] Adam Fuller:
The principle is found directly in the Talmud. It says that if someone comes to kill you, you should rise and kill that person first.

We are obligated by Hashem to protect our own lives and the lives of others within our communities. If someone is pursuing us with the intention of killing us, we are supposed to stop that person before we are killed.

Right there in the Talmud, you have a prescription to protect human life. There are also passages in the Torah suggesting that we must have the ability to defend ourselves and our communities.

Beyond that general obligation, there are many halakhic questions involving Jewish law. Once we establish that Jews are obligated to protect their lives and the lives of others, and that firearms may be necessary to fulfill that obligation, many additional questions arise.

For example, are Jews allowed to carry firearms on Shabbat? Most rabbinic responses have said yes. There are some outlying opinions that say no, but for the most part, carrying for protection is permitted. Rabbinic commentators have used several different lines of reasoning to reach that conclusion.

There are also questions about whether women can carry firearms, either on Shabbat or during the week. Some rabbis say yes, while others say no. Different communities have reached different conclusions.

Another issue involves firearm storage. There are halakhic nuances concerning where and how a firearm should be kept. If your gun falls into the hands of someone who is irresponsible and that person causes harm, you may bear responsibility.

People say the answer to every question can be found in the Talmud. These are among the questions we can bring to the Talmud and attempt to answer.

[15:21] Kenneth Schachter:
Israel is often cited as a place of safety for Jewish people, but it has its own gun-control laws. What do you believe Israel gets right, and what does it get wrong, about civilian gun access and public safety?

[15:38] Adam Fuller:
Israel’s gun laws have essentially adopted what many members of the American gun-control lobby would consider their ideal system.

It is very difficult to obtain a firearm in Israel. Even after passing all the necessary hurdles, you are extremely limited in the type of firearm you may own. You may generally own only one pistol, and it must be registered with the government.

Owners are also limited in the amount of ammunition they may possess. Only certain people can satisfy the prerequisites for obtaining a license. Applicants must pass psychological examinations, and firearm licenses must be renewed regularly.

On October 7, many people were left unable to defend themselves. Some of the people who successfully fought off Hamas terrorists reportedly possessed weapons that the state did not know about. In those circumstances, ignoring the law may have saved their lives.

The situation has improved somewhat, but gun ownership remains extremely limited. Although members of Israel’s political leadership have expressed an interest in expanding gun rights, a bureaucratic civil service still controls much of the licensing system. The bureaucracy can delay or obstruct the implementation of reforms passed by elected officials.

That is what I believe Israel gets wrong.

What does Israel get right? Israel prepares its people for the realities of war. Most people, although not everyone, receive at least some exposure to firearms training.

Israel has mandatory military conscription. Although I am not necessarily advocating mandatory conscription, most people who serve will gain experience with firearms.

People in Israel are also not generally afraid of firearms in the same way that many Americans are. When you visit Israel, you frequently see soldiers or security officials walking through Tel Aviv or Jerusalem carrying rifles.

Israel also uses a controversial practice sometimes called “Israeli carry,” in which a firearm is carried without a round in the chamber. The user is trained to chamber a round quickly if combat becomes necessary.

Some American firearms experts believe this is a reasonable system. Many others consider it unnecessary or even absurd. The practice dates back to a period when firearms were not considered drop-safe. Modern firearms are generally safer in that respect, but the system has continued.

[20:13] Kenneth Schachter:
In speaking with Jewish gun owners throughout the United States, what did you hear that challenged your own assumptions about the issue?

[20:26] Adam Fuller:
I would not necessarily say that the gun owners I interviewed challenged my assumptions, but I found their stories fascinating.

I included a chapter featuring interviews with gun owners from many different backgrounds because I wanted to capture the diversity of people within Jewish communities who have embraced gun ownership.

Perhaps one assumption I held was that Jewish gun owners would represent one particular type of person. That turned out not to be the case.

Jewish gun owners come from across the religious, political, cultural, and geographic spectrum. Gun ownership is not limited to one particular kind of Jew. It can appeal to many different kinds of Jewish people.

[21:36] Kenneth Schachter:
In one of your chapters, you offer guidance for Jewish gun owners that goes beyond simply acquiring a firearm. What does responsible preparedness require?

[21:50] Adam Fuller:
First, you need training. You need to learn and memorize the fundamental rules of gun safety. You must train regularly and understand the laws in your own jurisdiction, because firearm laws differ from place to place.

The biggest question you must confront is when to shoot. That decision carries enormous moral and legal ramifications for you and for everyone around you.

A responsible gun owner must also consider whether an irresponsible person could gain access to the firearm. Your living situation will determine how you should store it.

If you have children, you must make sure the firearm is properly secured and kept under lock and key. When children reach an appropriate age, I recommend teaching them about firearms and helping them become comfortable with safe and responsible handling.

There was a time when firearm training was common in American educational institutions. Some countries, including Poland, have introduced or expanded this kind of training, and similar initiatives have been discussed in some American states.

Gun owners should also advocate for the right to bear arms. They should consider the legal and financial consequences of firearm ownership, including whether specialized insurance is appropriate. I offer several recommendations on those issues in the book.

[23:57] Kenneth Schachter:
Incredibly, our time is almost up.

Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Disrupting Hate on hmTv. Many thanks to my guest, Professor Adam Fuller, for sharing his insights.

Be sure to subscribe, share, and stay connected for more engaging conversations.

Until next time, take care and be well.