Protecting boys and challenging assumptions in the online world with Francesco Cecon, ECPAT International

Tune in for an insightful conversation with Francesco Cecon from ECPAT International and Kay Vasey from k-ID exploring:

•  Breaking stereotypes about boys' online vulnerabilities.
•  Practical tips for parents to build trust and open communication.
•  The role of online platforms in fostering supportive experiences for kids.
•  New initiatives to protect children while encouraging inclusion and community.

Discover practical solutions to help kids thrive in digital spaces while staying safe, no matter their background. 

Let’s empower families and reshape the digital landscape, together.

Transcript

Kay (00:17)

From your perspective, Francesco, whether as a parent yourself or from the parents and kids you have actually worked with, can you share a story that really brought home the importance of creating safer online spaces for kids?

Francesco Cecon (00:29)

There are many stories that come to mind, but maybe I think more than a story, I would talk about an opportunity. We feel that throughout the work that we do at ECPAT, especially in the online spaces, doesn't matter if it's on social media or online gaming environments, we saw a huge potential to really have these spaces harnessed and leveraged to support children proactively. We conducted a lot of research with children, parents, caregivers themselves, and through the research one common threat was the fact that many children struggle to have those trusted figures in their offline realities. 

But they do trust people they can meet online, whether it's peers, whether it's other trusted community members. So we really want to leverage that potential and I think that's what we want to focus on, this is what we want to put our efforts on because there is a lot of potential there that is not being leveraged enough but we also want to do it in a way that is risk conscious. So we want to be aware of how children engage online but also not to say everything is a risk but there is also an opportunity.

Kay (01:29)

Your work is so incredibly inspiring. What first motivated you to get involved with the work of ECPAT?

Francesco Cecon (01:35)

I've always worked in the child protection sector, like since the beginning of my career. So what's really motivating me to work with ECPAT International is because ECPAT works on all issues related to sexual exploitation and abuse of children across different settings and forms. And the approach that we use at ECPAT International is understanding the intersecting root causes of sexual abuse and exploitation of children, which really allows us to have a holistic understanding and how to develop a holistic response that takes that into account.

I think what I like the most is the fact that ECPAT International is not afraid to raise uncomfortable yet critical issues around gender norms, stereotypes, and how these gender norms, stereotypes, social norms, cultural norms really impact children and children's agency over their lives.

I do believe that through the work we do at ECPAT and also because of my personal beliefs, we understand sexual violence against children as a social justice issue. That really allows us to contribute fight off a bigger system of oppression.

Kay (02:37)

Thank you so much for the important work that you do. not only in the of the real world, but I suppose, you know, the ills of humanity are actually amplified by technology. And so, we have to kind of fight from both angles. Has there been a pivotal moment though in your career that's shaped your approach to protecting children?

Francesco Cecon (02:54)

I think a really pivotal moment has been understanding the complexities of what children experience, but also the complexities of emotions that people that want to support children have to go through. 

And I think that's been the revelation for me to understand that people who are trying to provide support to children, it doesn't matter if they're parents, caregivers, social workers, NGO they also have their emotions, they also have their triggers, they also carry their baggage and it's really important to understand that. It's really important to understand that every human being, children or adult, that is trying to support children, has a very unique personality, has a very unique experience, a very unique journey and we need to take that into account. So I think it was pivotal to me because it really made me understand that.

We cannot only talk about child protection, we need to talk about also about the adults that are in their lives. And we need to understand as well how to not make assumptions about someone's journey just because we think we know something.

Kay (03:53)

Yes, there really isn't a of like a one size fits all approach to this kind of issue, right? You need to take it on a case by case basis. Is there any kind of like a particular unexpected lesson, though, that you kind of learnt along the way as well?

Francesco Cecon (04:07)

It's about never making assumptions. So for instance, with the work we do at ECPAT, we have this ECPAT Global Boys Initiative that looks at the protection of boys, specifically from any form of sexual abuse and exploitation. And I think it's been a learning journey for us on how to work with boys. We conducted the research, but then we started to really engage practitioners in our network on how to work with boys.

The research gave us the full framework, the picture of how sexual violence against boys is perpetrated, how it happens and so on. But when you talk about practitioners that do engage with boys every day, you understand that the issue is way more complex and there are so many different considerations to take into account.

Every single country, every single community might have different ways of working on the issue. So really keeping an open mind on that. So I think that has been our biggest learning.

Kay (04:58)

I think that's so fascinating because I mean, I'm a mum of two boys and I think from the outside looking in, I think it's mostly more of my parents' friends who have girls who are more kind of in, you know, worried about this sexual exploitation issue. Was there some kind of trigger that actually made you kind of think, hang on a minute, we're not actually addressing boys here? And what kind of led to the initiative being set up? 

Francesco Cecon (05:24)

I feel that there is a paradoxical bias around that, right? And we believe that boys are unvulnerable, especially when we talk about uncomfortable issues such as sexual violence, right? And so we provide them with less supervision, because we don't think that that could happen to boys. So that bias is the one that really made us starting to work on this.

You know, what we saw is that so many boys go completely undetected and unsupported because we don't even think that they could be victimized in the first place we're missing the conversation around boys because of that bias that we have that boys should be strong, self-sufficient, not ask for help, not show emotions, and that is translated in the way that boys understand their own experiences, but also in the way we understand their experiences.

Having the conversation on how to protect boys is also an opportunity to educate boys, parents, caregivers, around different forms of masculinity. Teach your boys how to be caring, how to be supportive, how to share their emotions and how to build a sense of trust that eventually, we also believe, will contribute to reducing any other form of violence.

Kay (06:32)

That's so interesting. At my kid's school, they had the Breck Bednar Foundation come in and give a presentation and they were breaking down all sorts of stereotypes. Breck Bednar was a young boy who was actually lured somewhere else by another 18 year old boy and actually ended up unfortunately passing away. And so, you know, the kind of age old, you know, this kind of thing doesn't happen to boys, number one.

And number two, actually the perpetrator, unfortunately, was another boy who was not and old, hairy white man, the kind of stereotype of the lurkers and the monsters, you know, the stranger danger that you might be telling kids about online. And actually just was effectively another, you know, child who'd just become an adult, which is quite shocking, right?

It's not just vulnerable young girls that it happens to, and it's certainly not all the old white men who are the perpetrators, right?

Francesco Cecon (07:26)

So especially adolescent boys go completely undetected. And that's the case you also raise, right? But also boys who come from marginalized communities. So there is an intersection between being a boy and with your racial, ethnic background, your religious background, your cultural background that really comes into play. So when we struggle to see boys as victims, we struggle even more to think that boys from specific marginalized communities can be victims.

All different kinds of boys can be at risk. There is not a perfect victim as we like to I want to talk more about the exposure to risk. 

So for parents and caregivers to really understand that children and especially adolescent boys want to explore themselves, want to explore their sexuality, their gender identity, and they have the right to do so like we all did in the past even before technology and the online world. They go online and use technology also to get some information that many times they do not have access to in their offline realities because maybe that's not a discussion that is happening in the family. It's not a discussion that is happening at school or, you know, in communities.

And the fact that they do not have that information offline, also makes them more vulnerable to be groomed online. And to be involved in situations that can be risky and harmful for them. So I really think that if you have conversations with boys offline about boundaries, consent and safe exploration, not from a risk prevent kind of approach and attitude, but more like let's have an open, not taboo conversation that can also improve their lives online.

Kay (09:21)

Thank you so much for that. That's one of the reasons why we want to do this podcast and speak to people who are professionals working in the industry, because we feel the need to empower the parent-child conversation. What impact then are you most proud of, Francesco, from your work so far? And how do you measure success? 

Francesco Cecon (09:42)

This year is a special one because as ECPAT International we convened and launched what we call the Global Alliance for the Protection of Boys from Sexual Violence. The Global Alliance is a result of an event we did last year in 2023 where we brought practitioners and decision makers and advocates.

for children's rights and especially working on questions of gender and voice protection from more than 30 countries together to

influence a lot of spaces where decisions are made about children saying boys should also be part of the conversations. in a way that is an opportunity, to engage in a conversation on masculinity, on ideas of gender norms, on wider issues that also we strongly believe will contribute to gender equity and will contribute to the feminist fight. Let's reimagine what masculinity looks like, let's provide an alternative to boys and let's also do that in a way that prevents violence against women and girls.

Kay (10:38)

Brilliant, thank you. And that's how you are expanding the conversation and making sure lots of different perspectives and voices are heard. So I think it's such important work that you do. And looking ahead then, what initiatives are you most passionate about and how do you hope that they're going to change the online landscape for kids?

Francesco Cecon (10:55)

So next year we want to work even more with online gaming companies and partners such as k-ID to develop guidance for companies on how to develop an online game

for children that by design wants to challenge stereotypes, beliefs, biases about boys, girls, but also children of diverse gender identities actively, And the second potential we're really excited to be working on next year is how do we connect.

online gaming platforms with civil society organizations for those children who do want to seek out help for any issues they might have in their lives. think one thing we're really passionate about is that one finding of our research was that because especially boys but all children might lack

people of trust in their offline words to ask for advice, to ask for help, or to report any issue, to disclose any issue they have, online gaming environments provide that potential. So how do we make sure that that conversation happens between those who provide services and online gaming platforms who are places where children go to have fun, enjoy, but also build community?

Kay (11:58)

we see the gaming landscape evolving, I'm hopeful that if there's more emphasis on the types of work that you're doing, bringing different perspectives into the picture, we can make sure that the gaming world is also very much more inclusive as well. as you see technology evolving, is there one key area that you think that we need to focus to keep kids safe?

Francesco Cecon (12:22)

technology is changing so fast that we need to be smart and up to speed with those changes as well. And I think for us one key area of focus next year is what I said before but it's break the line between offline and online.

So if offline we're able to talk about boundaries, consent, respectful relationship, emotions and so on, we may expect that that could also happen online.

Let's make sure that there is coherence in how we talk to children offline, also what they teach, excuse me, what they learn and what they absorb offline. So how do we leverage technologies to install certain positive values of, as you said, diversity, inclusion, respect, gender equity actively? That's really the potential we want to focus on.

for us as NGOs, sometimes we do a lot of community awareness raising activities and we might reach out to that specific community or a specific target population in some area, but the number is always limited, whereas technology offers us the opportunity to open the world, in different ways.

Kay (13:24)

I couldn't agree more. think it's so important to remember that we cannot and should not lay the ills of humanity at technology's feet. If we can't solve things in the offline world, how do we expect them to be completely solved in the online world?

And I'm going to give you now a magic wand.

If you could wave that magic wand and solve just even one issue in online safety right now, what would it be?

Francesco Cecon (13:49)

definitely breaking stereotypes and biases. I think it's one of the key issues that we should be working on to tackle violence against children. If we're able to understand that connection and tackle that and make sure that...

Online spaces are spaces where children can just be joyful, play, connect, build community, stereotypically, in a respectful way, that would make a massive difference in any other kind of intervention that we want to do. So this is just one issue in a world of many different problems, but if we're able to say to children, you can go online and be sure that that's a space where you can enjoy yourself, learn, discover,

explore,

connect with others and do it in a way that no one's going to judge you for who you are, where you come from, how you decide to portray yourself online. That will be a massive change. Also because I think one learning from many children that we consulted with

safety means first of all respect and inclusion.

Kay (14:54)

absolutely. couldn't agree more. So why do you think partnerships like ours between ECPAT and k-ID are crucial for addressing online safety challenges? And at the same time, maybe you can kind of share a little bit about what excites you most about working with us.

Francesco Cecon (15:09)

I feel like together we can reach targets and impact and outcomes that we could not do by ourselves. And so bringing one voice, especially as we share principle and values, will, you know, widen the

I think what excites me the most about our collaboration is that I think we complement each other both in expertise and network. I think we bring

different languages, different approaches and different areas of expertise through the table. And there is so much to learn from that. as civil society organizations, sometimes we tend to stay in our own sector and speak our own language and assume that everyone else understands us in that way. And I think for us, we have a lot to learn from you on how to adjust, innovate our language, our approach, how to reach a different audience in different ways and how to evolve in that sense. And we also feel that we have the opportunity to also

share what we have learned, we know, what we hear from children, from practitioners themselves, and share that information with you, and that you have that capacity of transforming that information in a probably more accessible way that we don't have the resources to do. And I think another interesting point of working with you is that you can guide us on how to navigate even

working with the tech sector, with the private companies, with big stakeholders in that market, guide us, advise us and help us in advocating in all of that.

we learned one very key important outcome from our research. That was the fact that children do not disclose, children do not report, children do not talk about their experiences online with parents, caregivers.

and adults in general. Most of the time they tend to share with peers, with other children or with people that they feel they trust, including people they might trust online, like in online gaming communities. So there is a big issue there. There is an issue around trust. There is an issue about, if I'm going to speak about this with my parents, am I going to be punished for it? know, am I going to be... are the consequences of speaking up worse than the issue itself?

So I think the biggest piece of advice would be maybe to work on our own beliefs, attitudes, biases,

what makes us feel uncomfortable, why we're not able to have that conversation with children, what makes it so difficult, and educate ourselves about how should we be able to speak to our children about this. And if we're able to create that sense of trust, children are also going to be able to talk about some of the things that they might see online that made them feel uncomfortable.

That's what we really advocate for, to make sure parents know how to have those conversations and can become people that children trust automatically be involved in understanding how children live online. So what are the different platforms?

How do they function? Who do they speak to? And not always from a risk adverse kind of attitude, but also sometimes just out of curiosity. One learning we had from engaging online gaming companies on this work is that many of them said there is a lot of potential in parents playing games together with their children because it also creates a sense of connection in that moment that also increases trust, right? So it goes beyond just understanding the risks and all of that, but it's also

How can we create new memories or playful moments together through something that is part of their children's life and it's always going to be part of their children's life

Kay (18:38)

Cool, thank you for sharing. And now I'm going to go myth busters on you. What is a myth about online safety that you would like to bust right here?

Francesco Cecon (18:49)

I have two. The first one is online spaces are not simply dangerous and risky and places where harm can happen, know, and violence is there. They can be places where children can explore and build communities. And I think one big learning for us has been, especially for children who do not have that opportunity offline, we should understand those as critical spaces of socialization and exploration and discovery, right? The second one is that

is not only one group of children that face risk and harm online. It's all children according to different issues,

So really challenge that bias and understanding that there are many factors, age range, ability or disability, gender, that can play a role in exposing children to harm.

Kay (19:35)

brilliant, I love it. And I know it's really hard to distill down, but if you just had one message to parents raising kids in today's digital age, what do you think that that would be?

Francesco Cecon (19:46)

Talk to your children. Talk to your children in a very comfortable way. I think that's the most honest advice. Create a space where children feel they can trust you and they're not going to be punished for just discussing things that they see online or that happened online to them or their friends. Build that sense of trust. Challenge your own biases and challenge your own...

way of seeing online world and risk and all of that and also hear the positive stuff that children have to say to you about their experiences online.

Kay (20:19)

Awesome, thank you. And then if you could just sum up your vision for the future of online safety in just three words, what would they be?

Francesco Cecon (20:29)

opportunity, education and transformation.