k-ID Talks

Parenting in the digital age isn’t about control — it’s about guidance. In k-ID Talks, online safety experts share practical insights to help you foster healthy digital habits at home — without the screen-time struggles. Tune in and make digital parenting simpler, smarter, and more empowering.

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k-ID Talks

Talking so kids talk back: Online safety and digital parenting with Debbie Downes, Director of Global School Initiatives at ICMEC

April 08, 2025 • k-ID • Season 1 • Episode 4

1. Why most online grooming happens with people kids already know

Debbie breaks the myth of “stranger danger” online and explains why trusted adults can be the real threat in digital spaces.

2. What good digital parenting looks like today
From avoiding surveillance-style monitoring to asking curious, open-ended questions, Debbie outlines practical ways to raise safe and confident digital citizens.

3. The emotional toll of being constantly online
The episode explores how online exclusion and social dynamics, like not being added to a WhatsApp group, can deeply affect children’s mental health.

4. How schools and parents can work together to create safer online environments
Debbie shares stories from working with educators, emphasizing the importance of aligned policies and consistent boundaries for adults interacting with students online.

5. Where AI fits into the conversation around child safety
While AI can detect harmful content, Debbie explains how it’s also being used to create abuse, making regulation, awareness, and ethical tech design more urgent than ever.

Let’s empower families and reshape the digital landscape, together.

"Hello, it’s Kay, and today I’m chatting with Debbie Downes, Director of Global School Initiatives at the International Centre for Missing & Exploited Children. With eighteen years of experience in the nonprofit international school sector, Debbie has held various administrative and teaching roles in schools and right now she develops training resources and helps with the implementation of policies and procedures to respond to child protection concerns in schools around the world. Hi Debbie, I’m so glad to have you here with us today. I’m going to dive straight in with the first question.”

Kay Vasey (00:00)

from your perspective, whether as a parent yourself or from the parents and kids you've worked with, can you share a story with us that really brought home the importance of creating safer online spaces for children?

Debbie Downes (00:10)

Sure. So I think it involves the pandemic. That might be unsurprising. As soon as lockdowns were announced, I think all social workers...

were very worried for children who might not be safe in their homes. For those of us in healthy family situations, the beginning of lockdown I almost enjoyed because I was home, I was getting more time with my children, But I did worry about children who I knew were not having that experience. And then...

additional concerns began to surface because in my own home my kids were in upper elementary at the time and I was very involved with monitoring their screen time. That all went completely out the window.

in talking to other people, especially in talking to the schools I worked with, I found out that was a very representative experience, hoping that when our kids were online, they were doing what they said they were doing. Mine weren't. And so then I started to really understand that this was a much bigger problem

realizing that many parents and caregivers were not privy to these research statistics,

children continued to choose online interactions over in-person interactions. We saw a massive uptick in anxiety over self-image or online bullying. And then an exponential increase in the number of child sexual abuse images or CSAM on the web. And the victims were becoming younger and younger. The material was becoming more severe, that's

when I was transitioning into my role in ICMEC and really understanding that online safety needed to be a huge focus of the work that we do here.

Kay Vasey (01:28)

your work is so incredibly inspiring what first motivated you to get involved in empowering and equipping the global community to protect children

Debbie Downes (01:36)

I was a pretty sensitive child.

so child abuse has been something I've been interested in since I can remember. when I went to university, I studied psychology. then I eventually went on to UC Berkeley. I earned my master's in social welfare. worked as a social worker in California for several years. my

husband, we had met in Peace Corps in Senegal and knew that we wanted to get back overseas. So we moved to Thailand, we lucked into positions at a local international school in Phuket

I was an elementary teacher and then a principal. then I worked at headquarters of an organization that runs international schools in, 36 countries

my job at headquarters was supposed to be working on accreditation I also took on the role of being a child safeguarding and protection lead for all 36 schools because in 2016. a case had just broken where a teacher who had worked at multiple international schools over a long career.

it was revealed that he had been abusing students at each school. So international schools were finally confronted with the reality that This kind of abuse is happening in our school.

when the woman who had my job before me at ICMEC was leaving, she said, please apply I did. Here I am. And the more I do this work, the more I realize that most abuse has an online component.

if we're not keeping online safety as a focus, we're not doing our job to protect children.

Kay Vasey (02:55)

thank you so much for sharing because I think it's really important for people to understand journeys

always fascinating to hear everyone's different motivations and journeys to where they are. have you had one unexpected lesson you've learned along the way that's changed the

way you view your work.

Debbie Downes (03:10)

the more research I do on online safety I'm learning about algorithms, how they can put us in silos, how they can share more radicalized information with us. that makes me more and more concerned about healthy boundaries for children.

They're growing up with so much of their lives lived online and no clear boundaries between their online and offline lives. I feel like I'm never gonna be ahead of what children are doing online.

There's always some new game coming out if we keep focusing on this one TikTok challenge or this one AI component that's dangerous

we're never gonna get ahead. We have to have a way of teaching a broad umbrella of safety that can be applied to everything that students do online.

Kay Vasey (03:47)

So then What are the biggest online harms do you think that parents should be aware of today when it comes to the online space?

Debbie Downes (03:56)

Certainly social media in terms of.

FOMO, fear of missing out, feeling excluded. comparing themselves to others, if we're comparing our real selves to other people's social media content, we're never going to feel like we add up.

then I think gaming, there's research that adults are using online games to contact children.

and to begin grooming them for sexual abuse. I'm not sure all parents are aware of that. when students are communicating with other people online, people are who they say they are.

or the communication between children and adults isn't allowed, that parents are able to block that kind of communication.

Kay Vasey (04:33)

in terms of going back to what you actually do every day could you walk us through a typical day in your role?

Debbie Downes (04:38)

If it's okay, I'm gonna tackle a week generally within a week, I will have done a few workshops. virtual or in person at a school.

those workshops would be focused on educating educators making sure that everyone who works with children at the school deserves that privilege,

We do offer an online safety workshop and pretty much every time I give it, I have some updates to make to it because this is never like I made the online safety workshop and I can give this for the next 10 years. every single time there's something new

I spend a lot of my time collaborating at ICMEC I'm in a department of one. I collaborate on policy writing.

Some schools have reported trouble when they bring in an outside consultant to campus. the consultant has shared their social media. Follow me on Instagram. And then the students do. now...

those students are having chats with an adult on an unregulated platform,

Another brainstorming session I've just started,

Someone at the school creates an anonymous online account focused solely on bullying that kid.

how do we, protect the child who's the target

because parents and caregivers, they're in the best position to support their children. So I'm very happy, you know, this partnership with k-ID is very timely in doing this.

Kay Vasey (05:59)

I can't wait to hear more about the Parents as Partners program. That sounds right up our street and fascinating because some of the other amazing guests that we've been able to interview at some of the other world's most respected safety organizations also talk about it in the sense that, you know, they work on a case by case basis because they're always learning exactly as you say. There's always something new, always something changing. It was like, goodness, like two weeks ago, I've never heard of a case study like this. But actually now, because I now know this, I need

to include this and tweak my materials a little bit to include this because it's very important that kids and parents and educators know about this new thing. It's an ongoing work in progress, we in the industry, just have to keep our hopes up that

we do our best but there will always unfortunately be kids who fall through the net and that is a sad fact of reality. you have to also realize that for example when

seatbelts were introduced in cars. It was in the 1960s. It was not until the 1980s that we actually had to wear them by law. There are still people in this world that unfortunately die in car accidents, even with the seatbelts on. So we won't be able to save everyone, but we will always absolutely do our best acknowledging the fact that because technology is always changing, it is this dynamic creature, we have to just kind of like go with the flow.

and see what we can do and not focus so much on what we can't. So looking ahead then into kind of 2025 and beyond, of all the amazing initiatives that you're working on and super passionate about, how do you hope they're actually gonna change the online landscape for kids? And what are you kind of excited to work on in the new year?

Debbie Downes (07:32)

I've been very happy to see a trend of involving student voice in schools all over the world, bringing students to the table when we're designing curriculum, when we're designing policies. And then also when we're educating parents, I know that some schools out there are asking students to do presentations to their parents about online safety. And I think that's an incredibly powerful tool because number one, students know what they need protection from. And number two,

When you say to parents, I want you to come to school and see your child present, parents come.

When you say to parents, I want you to come to school and talk with the director about child safeguarding, I'll tell crickets, nobody wants to come for that. So when you can say that, you know, your child's going to be talking to you about something that's very important to them, parents will show up and the students are really the ones who should be educating us about this. And if we're not allowing them to inform everything that we do around online safety, then we're never going to be meeting their needs. And so I don't know what's going to come out of that because I think I'm just excited to see what students' guidance

toward as we continue to work in schools on their online safety.

Kay Vasey (08:35)

I love it. mean, they say that the best way of learning something is actually to teach it to somebody else, right? So that's fantastic. Well done. And if you, I know this is a difficult one, but if you did, if I was able to give you a magic wand and you could solve one issue in online safety right now, what do you think it would be?

Debbie Downes (08:50)

I'd go back to those algorithms because children are more manipulatable online when algorithms are used to target children, to keep them on a game longer or to even

introduce them to

information that's more harmful than helpful and can even lead to grooming and sexual abuse.

if we could get rid of the algorithms that take people there, that would help us some other problems.

Kay Vasey (09:11)

so then in terms of k-ID, how do you actually see this collaboration with k-ID empowering parents

Debbie Downes (09:16)

The more I'm learning about k-ID, the more I love that you've partnered with apps, online games, and that you're making it easy for children and parents

I'm excited to learn how I can support this approach, making it easy rather than burdensome or even scary for parents to support their kids online safety. Because there is a lot of scary information out there.

it can feel really burdensome for us to try and catch up. k-ID has just made it so simple for parents to go to one spot, I'm really excited to figure out how we can work together.

Kay Vasey (09:45)

Yay, thank you so much. And we cannot wait to shine I can't wait to shine a what you're doing and bring it to so many more people around the world, because we really can use technology for good in these scenarios and say, look, know, on one hand, we may be able to leverage the power of AI to remix

and remodel some of the materials that you have. And I know that large safety organisations often have extremely well researched, for example, long hundred page reports that are really, really excellent, but that sadly no parent is going to sit down on a kind of like, you know, Friday night and be like, yes, I must get through that report. And so...

Debbie Downes (10:22)

Yes,

Kay Vasey (10:22)

trying

to distill that into really easy to understand information for everyone around the world, making it as inclusive and accessible and actionable as possible. So that if you are coming in from, for example, Vietnam, and you have a 12 year old, you are not locked out of this world of online safety information. And actually, it then becomes at your fingertips powered by ICMEC and the other.

top world safety organisations. So I think it's going to be really amazing to work with you, so I'm really excited.

Debbie Downes (10:54)

I do too, and

I think it is just generally so exciting.

partner with someone so solidly in the tech space because I'm coming in as an outsider to this space. I use tech for work. I use it for a bit of entertainment. I use it for connections with friends and family who are far away. But it's definitely not a space I inhabit out of any passion. It is something that is purely utilitarian. So to share what is my why, my passion, my purpose of safeguarding children and partner with you all who also have

that passion. mean, this is very exciting. So, yeah, very happy to be working with you all.

Kay Vasey (11:27)

can't wait. And so what's one thing then though that in your experience from speaking to lots of different parents, kids and teens and educators, what's one thing that parents can start doing today to create a healthier balance between online and offline activities for their kids?

Debbie Downes (11:42)

this doesn't work in all families, but I think a good start can be a contract, a family contract, where the family sits down and draws up a contract about devices and online use. You know, there might be rules on there, like we don't bring our phones to the dinner table, or we have an hour of tech-free time after dinner where we play a family game.

something like that, offline has been really helpful for my family. So I am a non-gamer, married to a gamer and with two kids who are gamers. So I have had to learn to play offline games that are a little bit out of my comfort zone. You know, they're more into very strategic games. fantasy games, Dungeons and Dragons type things. So I'm definitely experimenting and trying to find games that I enjoy more in that world.

Kay Vasey (12:24)

Yeah, I completely agree. I'm not fully a gamer and I kind of grew up with it a little bit, but I've tried really hard to join my two sons who are 10 and 12 in their kind of like Roblox games or Fortnite games or kind of like, as you say, like other little offline games as well. And it really, really helps because it's not like I have to do it all the time. It's not like I have to make time and

my diary to kind of sit down and really get into Fortnite. But just even just that little bit means so much to them because then they're able to be like,

you're going to come into my world and again, I can then teach you something. I'm going to teach you how to get a victory royale or I'm going to teach you how to build that path really quickly within bed wars and that kind of stuff. it's like, they love seeing me fail. think it's hilarious that I just cannot play this game. And meanwhile, I'm also like, I have new found respect for how you play this game. Cause I, does not come naturally at all. Right. This is really hard. So in a way kind of meeting them where they are, even

just a tiny bit has been so powerful and groundbreaking for us as a family.

And then, as you say, making sure you spend some time on that family contract, being like, maybe there's things where it's like, let's make sure we just go out for a cycle ride altogether at the weekend or just do something totally nothing to do with the online world and having that balance.

Debbie Downes (13:59)

Mm-hmm.

Kay Vasey (14:01)

stop and think for a yeah, probably a good idea actually, you know? So it's the way that you can approach these conversations without kind of alienating your child to be like, they just don't understand, they're just so clueless, they don't understand anything about my video gaming world and I'm just gonna do this with my friends and then the more that you do that, then you shut yourself out from their little world where they are so happy, but then yet, potentially still in danger.

Right? So how do you think parents can then potentially recognize some of the signs that we might be having a child that might be facing some kind of online harm and what should they actually do next?

Debbie Downes (14:37)

Excellent. some things that parents and caregivers might look out for if students are...

Children feeling scared, feeling stressed if they're separated from their device. Any drastic changes in behavior. not sleeping enough. secretive about what they're doing online.

Being angry or withdrawn after being online. Having lots of new contacts or followers. those might be...

signs that something's going on online, they might also not be.

So I think it is just a matter of approaching all of these. When you see this happening, approach with curiosity, not judgment. If a child does come and say something that really scares us

The last thing we wanna do is say to our child, well, why would you do that? I told you not to share an image. Now we've stopped that conversation, and they don't think they can come to us for help anymore.

So when they come to us for help, we need to say, thank you, you've done the right thing. We're gonna get through this together.

If there is someone abusing a child online, we want to take screenshots of the offending profile and then block that profile.

report to law enforcement if a law has been broken, report to the app and then immediately seek emotional support for our kids because we know that there's a high risk of self harm.

Kay Vasey (15:39)

if you just had one single message to parents raising kids in today's digital age, what do you think that that would be?

Debbie Downes (15:47)

Be curious, not judgmental. Talk to your children what they do online, who they're spending time with, what they're sharing Let them know you're interested And then make sure students or children know that when they come to us for help,

We're not going to blame or shame them

Kay Vasey (16:00)

MythBusters question, what is a myth about online safety that you'd like to bust

Debbie Downes (16:06)

One myth that I would like to bust is stranger danger online.

There was recently a study And they found 62 % of perpetrators of online sexual abuse of children were acquaintances of the child in the offline life.

And 33 % of perpetrators of online abuse were intimate partners of the children who were abused. So it might be people they know who

are crossing boundaries

And one other myth, that with generative AI, that child sexual abuse material might become a victimless crime. And that has not borne out.

AI has been trained on real images.

So we know it's not a victimless crime. hopefully we'll start to steer AI in a positive direction

Kay Vasey (16:46)

Thank you so much for your sharing today, Debbie. It's really, been a fantastic journey through your work and the future looking as well. So I cannot wait to work really closely with you in 2025 and beyond.

Debbie Downes (16:56)

Thank you so much.

Outro by Kay

Thanks so much to Debbie Downes from the International Centre for Missing & Exploited Children for joining us today. I love what Debbie shared about being curious and not judgemental. The last thing you need to be playing with your kids is the blame game. Talk to them, and be on their side, in the real and digital worlds. Until next time, this is Kay Vasey handing back to Kieran Donovan at k-ID with a quick reminder.

SUGGESTED EDITS

Link to video interview
Note for editing: delete name Dr. Emily Meadows in final recording as per Debbie’s request

3-5 second of music - then voice over (music in the background as far as Kieran speaks)

Intro By Kieran Donovan:

Parenting in the digital age isn’t easy, and keeping your kids safe online can feel like a full-time job. But here’s the good news: I’m Kieran Donovan, here with our host, Kay Vasey, to tell you: you’re not alone. At k-ID, we bring together experts, parents, and changemakers to tackle the challenges of raising kids in a digital world—and find the opportunities for innovation along the way. Let’s fearlessly go!”

Music fades out - Kay starts speaking

Kay (00:02.904): …From your perspective, whether as a parent yourself or from the parents and kids you've worked with, can you share a story with us that really brought home the importance of creating safer online spaces for children?

Debbie (00:26.518): Sure. So I think it involves the pandemic. That might be unsurprising. As soon as lockdowns were announced, I think all social workers were very worried for children who might not be safe in their homes. For those of us in healthy family situations, the beginning of lockdown I almost enjoyed because I was home, I was getting more time with my children… But I did worry about children who I knew were not having that experience. And then additional concerns began to surface because in my own home… my kids were in upper elementary at the time and I was very involved with monitoring their screen time. That all went completely out the window…

In talking to other people, especially in talking to the schools I worked with, I found out that was a very representative experience… hoping that when our kids were online, they were doing what they said they were doing. Mine weren't. Then I started to really understand that this was a much bigger problem… realizing that many parents and caregivers were not privy to these research statistics… children continued to choose online interactions over in-person interactions. We saw a massive uptick in anxiety over self-image or online bullying. And then an exponential increase in child sexual abuse images on the web—the victims were becoming younger and younger. The material was becoming more severe. …That's when I was transitioning into my role in ICMEC and really understanding that online safety needed to be a huge focus of the work we do here.

Kay (05:42.422): Your work is so incredibly inspiring… what first motivated you to get involved in empowering and equipping the global community to protect children?

Debbie (05:42.422): I was a pretty sensitive child… so child abuse has been something I've been interested in since I can remember. When I went to university, I studied psychology. Then I eventually went on to UC Berkeley. I earned my master's in social welfare… worked as a social worker in California for several years… My husband and I had met in the Peace Corps in Senegal and knew that we wanted to get back overseas, so we moved to Thailand… we lucked into positions at a local international school in Phuket.

I was an elementary teacher and then a principal. Then I worked at the headquarters of an organization that runs international schools in 36 countries. My job at headquarters was supposed to be working on accreditation. I also took on the role of being a child safeguarding and protection lead for all 36 schools because in 2016 a case had just broken where a teacher who had worked at multiple international schools over a long career… it was revealed that he had been abusing students at each school. So international schools were finally confronted with the reality that this kind of abuse is happening in our schools.

…When the woman who had my job before me at ICMEC was leaving, she said, please apply… I did. Here I am. And the more I do this work, the more I realize that most abuse has an online component… If we're not keeping online safety as a focus, we're not doing our job to protect children.

Kay (12:16.906): Thank you so much for sharing because I think it's really important for people to understand journeys …It’s always fascinating to hear everyone's different motivations and journeys to where they are. Have you had one unexpected lesson you've learned along the way that's changed the way you view your work?

Debbie (12:16.906): The more research I do on online safety… I'm learning about algorithms, how they can put us in silos, how they can share more radicalized information… That makes me more and more concerned about healthy boundaries for children. They're growing up with so much of their lives lived online and no clear boundaries between their online and offline lives. I feel like I'm never gonna be ahead of what children are doing online… There's always some new game coming out… If we keep focusing on this one TikTok challenge or this one AI component that's dangerous, we're never gonna get ahead. We have to have a way of teaching a broad umbrella of safety that can be applied to everything students do online.

Kay (17:09.194): So then… what are the biggest online harms you think parents should be aware of today when it comes to the online space?

Debbie (17:26.282): Certainly social media in terms of FOMO, fear of missing out, feeling excluded… comparing themselves to others. If we're comparing our real selves to other people's social media content, we're never going to feel like we add up. Then I think gaming… there's research that adults are using online games to contact children and begin grooming them for sexual abuse. I'm not sure all parents are aware of that… When students are communicating with other people online, people are who they say they are—making sure that parents are able to block that kind of communication.

Kay (22:29.056): In terms of what you actually do every day, could you walk us through a typical day in your role?

Debbie (22:46.186): If it's okay, I'm gonna tackle a week… Usually I'll have done a few workshops, virtual or in person at a school. Those workshops focus on educating educators… making sure that everyone who works with children at the school deserves that privilege… We do offer an online safety workshop and pretty much every time I give it… I have some updates to make to it because this is never like, I made the online safety workshop and I can give this for the next 10 years. Every single time there's something new…

I spend a lot of my time collaborating at ICMEC. I'm in a department of one… I collaborate on policy writing. Some schools have reported trouble when they bring an outside consultant to campus. The consultant has shared their social media—“follow me on Instagram”—and the students do. Now those students are having chats with an adult on an unregulated platform… Another brainstorming session I've just started: If someone at the school creates an anonymous online account focused solely on bullying a kid… how do we protect the child who’s the target?

ICMEC has a program called Parents as Partners. It's been quiet for a couple years because when I took this job, there was so much else I had to get up and running. So I am finally able to focus on getting Parents as Partners back up. There will for sure be an online safety component… because parents and caregivers… are in the best position to support their children… So I'm very happy, you know, this partnership with k-ID is very timely in doing this.

Kay (28:34.222): Amazing. I can't wait to hear more about the Parents as Partners program. That sounds right up our street and fascinating because some of the other amazing guests that we've been able to interview at some of the other world's most respected safety organizations also talk about it in the sense that, you know, they work on a case by case basis because they're always learning, exactly as you say. There's always something new, always something changing. It was like, goodness, like two weeks ago, I've never heard of a case study like this. But actually now, because I now know this, I need to … include this and tweak my materials a little bit to include this because it's very important that kids and parents and educators know about this new thing. It's a lot… it's an ongoing work in progress. We in the industry just have to keep our hopes up… We do our best but there will always unfortunately be kids who fall through the net and that is a … sad fact of reality. You …have to also realize that … for example when seatbelts were introduced in cars. It was in the 1960s. It was not until the 1980s that we actually had to wear them by law. …There are still people in this world that unfortunately die in car accidents, even with the seatbelts on. So we won't be able to save everyone, but we will always absolutely do our best acknowledging the fact that because technology is always changing, it is this dynamic creature, we have to just kind of like go with the flow and see what we can do and not focus so much on what we can't.

Kay (31:27.116): So looking ahead then into kind of 2025 and beyond, of all the amazing initiatives that you're working on and super passionate about, how do you hope they're actually gonna change the online landscape for kids? And what are you kind of excited to work on in the new year?

Debbie (31:50.902): I've been very happy to see a trend of involving student voice in schools all over the world, bringing students to the table when we're designing curriculum, when we're designing policies. And then also when we're educating parents, I know that some schools out there are asking students to do presentations to their parents about online safety. And I think that's an incredibly powerful tool because number one, students know what they need protection from. And number two, when you say to parents, I want you to come to school and see your child present, parents come.

Kay (33:03.404): I love it. I mean, they say that the best way of learning something is actually to teach it to somebody else, right? So that's fantastic. Well done. And if you, I know this is a difficult one, but if you did, if I was able to give you a magic wand and you could solve one issue in online safety right now, what do you think it would be?

Debbie (33:24.33): I'd go back to those algorithms… Because children are more manipulatable online. If algorithms are used to target children to keep them on a game longer, or to introduce them to harmful content, that can lead to grooming or sexual abuse… It's not a victimless crime. But hopefully we'll start to steer AI in a positive direction.

Kay (37:12.878): …so then in terms of k-ID, how do you see this collaboration empowering parents?

Debbie (37:54.05): The more I'm learning about k-ID, the more I love that you've partnered with apps, online games, and that you're making it easy for children and parents… I'm excited to learn how I can support this approach, making it easy rather than scary for parents to support their kids' online safety. Because… there's a lot of scary information out there… it can feel really burdensome for us to try and catch up. k-ID has just made it so simple for parents to go to one spot… I'm really excited to figure out how we can work together.

Kay Vasey (39:01.036): Yay, thank you so much. … I can't wait to … shine a huge spotlight on what you're doing and bring it to so many more people around the world. We really can use technology for good in these scenarios and …say, look, know, on one hand, we may be able to leverage the power of AI to remix and remodel some of the materials that you have. And I know that large safety organisations often have extremely well researched, for example, long hundred page reports that are really, really excellent, but that sadly no parent is going to sit down on a kind of like, you know, Friday night and be like, yes, I must get through that report. And so...

Debbie Downes (39:51.06)

Yes, exactly.

Kay Vasey (39:52.128)

trying to distill that into really easy to understand information for everyone around the world, making it as inclusive and accessible and actionable as possible. So that if you are coming in from, for example, Vietnam, and you have a 12 year old, you are not locked out of this world of online safety information. And actually, it then becomes at your fingertips powered by ICMEC and the other… top world safety organisations. So I think it's going to be really amazing to work with you, so I'm really excited.

Debbie Downes (40:24.256)

I do too, and I think it is just generally so exciting to partner with someone so solidly in the tech space because I'm coming in as an outsider to this space. I use tech for work. I use it for a bit of entertainment. I use it for connections with friends and family who are far away. But it's definitely not a space I inhabit out of any passion. It is something that is purely utilitarian. So to share what is my why, my passion, my purpose of safeguarding children and partner with you all who also have that passion. I mean, this is very exciting. So, yeah, very happy to be working with you all.

Kay (45:01.21): And so what's one thing then though that in your experience from speaking to lots of different parents, kids and teens and educators, what's one thing that parents can start doing today to create a healthier balance between online and offline activities for their kids?

Debbie Downes (41:26.132)

This doesn't work in all families, but I think a good start can be a contract, a family contract, where the family sits down and draws up a contract about devices and online use. You know, it might, there might be rules on there, like we don't bring our phones to the dinner table, or we have an hour of tech-free time after dinner where we play a family game.

Something like that, offline has been really helpful for my family. So I am a non-gamer, married to a gamer and with two kids who are gamers. So I have had to learn to play offline games that are a little bit out of my comfort zone. You know, they're more into very strategic games… and fantasy games, Dungeons and Dragons type things. So I'm definitely experimenting and trying to find games that I enjoy more in that world.

Kay Vasey (43:07.086)

Yeah, I completely agree. … I'm not fully a gamer and I kind of grew up with it a little bit, but I've tried really hard to join my two sons who are 10 and 12 in their kind of like Roblox games or Fortnite games or kind of like, as you say, like other little offline games as well. And it really, really helps because it's not like I have to do it all the time. It's not like I have to …make time and my diary to kind of sit down and really get into Fortnite. But just even just that little bit means so much to them because then they're able to be like, you're going to come into my world and again, I can then teach you something. I'm going to teach you how to get a victory royale or I'm going to teach you how to build that path really quickly within bed wars and that kind of stuff. It's like, they love seeing me fail. They think it's hilarious that I just cannot play this game. And meanwhile, I'm also like, I have new found respect for how you play this game. Cause it does not come naturally at all. Right? This is really hard. So in a way kind of meeting them where they are, even just a tiny bit has been so powerful and groundbreaking for us as a family…

And I think that if you ask them that question rather than, we need to have a balance, you need to have less screen time, blah, blah, blah. If you can approach it as more like a question and a kind of like, yeah, what do you think? Should we have a balance? And they're like, stop and think for a yeah, probably a good idea actually, you know? So… it's the way that you can approach these conversations without kind of alienating your child to be like, they just don't understand, they're just so clueless, they don't understand anything about my video gaming world and I'm just gonna do this with my friends and then the more that you do that, then you shut yourself out from their little world where they are so happy, but then yet, potentially still in danger.

Debbie (46:01.142): Excellent… Some things that parents and caregivers might look out for: children feeling scared, feeling stressed if they're separated from their device, any drastic changes in behavior, not sleeping enough, secretive about what they're doing online, being angry or withdrawn after being online, having lots of new contacts or followers. Those might be signs… or they might not be. So approach with curiosity, not judgment… If a child does come and say something that really scares us, the last thing we want to do is blame them. We need to say, “Thank you, you've done the right thing. We're going to get through this together.” …If there is someone abusing a child online, we want to take screenshots of the offending profile, block that profile, report to law enforcement if a law has been broken, report to the app. And then immediately seek emotional support for our kids because there's a high risk of self-harm.

Kay (52:39.094): If you just had one single message to parents raising kids in today's digital age, what would it be?

Debbie (52:39.094): … Be curious, not judgmental. Talk to your children about what they do online, who they're spending time with, what they're sharing. Let them know you're interested… and that when they come to us for help, we're not going to blame or shame them.

Kay (53:38.84): MythBusters question: What is a myth about online safety that you'd like to bust?

Debbie (53:49.854): One myth I'd like to bust is stranger danger online. A recent study… found 62% of perpetrators of online sexual abuse of children were acquaintances offline, and 33% were intimate partners of the children who were abused. So it might be people they know who are crossing boundaries. Another myth… that with generative AI, child sexual abuse material might become a victimless crime. It has not borne out. AI has been trained on real images. So it's not a victimless crime… hopefully we'll start to steer AI in a positive direction…

Kay (57:01.58): Thank you so much for your sharing today, Debbie. It’s really been a fantastic journey through your work and the future looking as well. I cannot wait to work really closely with you in 2025 and beyond…

Debbie (57:19.232): Thank you so much.

Kay outro?

Kieran outro

“Parenting in the digital age isn’t about perfection—it’s about progress. Thanks for listening. Let’s build a safer, brighter online future for our kids, one conversation at a time. Stay tuned on k-id.com and until next time, stay informed, stay vigilant, and remember: together, we can protect and empower kids and teens as they play, learn and grow up online.”

3-4 seconds of music only - fades, end.

Kay Vasey (00:02.904)

Hello, thank you so much, Debbie, for joining us today. I'm really, really pleased that you're here today and you're going to be able to speak with us today. So I want to kind of like quickly just dive straight in, frankly. So from your perspective, whether as a parent yourself or from the parents and kids you've worked with, can you share a story with us that really brought home the importance of creating safer online spaces for children?

Debbie Downes (00:26.518)

Sure. So I think it involves the pandemic. That might be unsurprising. As soon as lockdowns were announced, I think all social workers...

were very worried for children who might not be safe in their homes. For those of us in healthy family situations, the beginning of lockdown I almost enjoyed because I was home, I was getting more time with my children, I was getting more time with my husband, more dog walks. We were thankfully able to go outside where we were locked down. But I did worry about children who I knew were not having that experience. And then...

additional concerns began to surface because in my own home where I was a mom, my kids were in upper elementary at the time and I was very involved with monitoring their screen time. That all went completely out the window.

And in talking to other people, especially in talking to the schools I worked with, I found out that was a very representative experience, that all of us were kind of just doing the best we could to do our jobs, hoping that when our kids were online, they were doing what they said they were doing. Mine weren't. And so then I started to really understand that this was a much bigger problem and that our students were in this world that was completely unregulated without us looking over their shoulder most of the time they were in it.

receiving statistics from research, confirming all of those fears and realizing that many parents and caregivers were not privy to these research statistics, didn't understand the bigger, what was going on online while we had our children online learning. You know, very easy for them to say, I'm in class, I'm doing homework. And again, often they were not.

Debbie Downes (02:13.556)

And then I think post pandemic, we started to see that children continued to choose online interactions over in-person interactions. We saw a massive uptick in anxiety over self-image or online bullying. And then an exponential increase in the number of child sexual abuse images or CSAM on the web. And the victims were becoming younger and younger. The material was becoming more severe, more violent over time. So all of these concerns came true. And I think that's when...

around that time was also when I was transitioning into my role in ICMEC and really understanding that online safety needed to be a huge focus of the work that we do here.

Kay Vasey (02:51.566)

Wow, that really resonates with me, goodness. I mean, it takes me back, right? That pandemic period was really, really tough because on the one hand, know, yeah, great. Let's spend more time at home with the kids and, but at the same time, it was extremely challenging, right? Because teachers were sending home all of this stuff. hey, you've got to log in to this video call. We're to have a class online and then you've got to kind of like become this educator. And it's like, I'm not very good at teaching.

Debbie Downes (03:02.453)

yet.

Debbie Downes (03:13.27)

Mmmmm

Debbie Downes (03:19.754)

Man.

Kay Vasey (03:21.472)

suddenly realized and you know, certainly not my own children. And even just trying to get my son to sit down at the time, was six at the time, I didn't understand because like, no, but we're at home. We don't normally do this stuff at home. What do you mean, you're learning at home? Like, yeah, maybe little tiny, maybe little bits of that age, we're like little bits of homework here and there, but nothing in relation to what was expected. So there was like multiple video calls during the day. And so then, you know, this screen became, you know, this route into connect...

Debbie Downes (03:34.666)

Yeah.

Kay Vasey (03:51.488)

with their classmates and also a way that we're continuing education throughout this very difficult period where we all have to stay at home. And then at the same time though, those screens are then the source of all of their entertainment as well. So that's actually when people don't realize that Roblox was actually born in the early 2000s. And it wasn't until the pandemic era that it massively had a huge uptick and became what it is today.

Debbie Downes (04:04.374)

Mm-hmm.

Kay Vasey (04:18.55)

So it's been a very interesting kind of journey through what the screen time is used for in relation to entertainment and education. And very much now I see a lot of the homework that comes down from school is very on screens as well. And they spend a lot of time on screens at school. So there's really blurred boundaries. And I can imagine if I was Gen Alpha, they'd be like, hang on a minute, this, they, you know, my mom like shouts at me for like being on my screen too much and stuff. like, you know, that's like,

Debbie Downes (04:35.306)

Yep.

Kay Vasey (04:48.456)

at home on my video game, but then they have no idea that we spend most of the day on screens at home at school too, right? but what is this? And it must be quite confusing, mixed messages around what technology devices are for, where the boundaries are, et cetera, et cetera. So it is a massive uphill struggle.

Debbie Downes (05:05.856)

I will say, you my kids were on lockdown with two educators as parents and we still failed. So please don't be too hard on yourself for anything that happened during the pandemic.

Kay Vasey (05:12.078)

Thank you, yeah, was really, really challenging, goodness. So, and your work is just so incredibly inspiring and I think I would love to let you share actually what first motivated you to get involved in empowering and equipping the global community to protect children from really serious things like abduction, sexual abuse and exploitation. Share a little bit of your journey of how you got here.

Debbie Downes (05:42.422)

to start way back. I was a pretty sensitive child. think I was just very sensitive to...

people around me. so child abuse has been something I've been interested in since I can remember. Just being concerned about some of my friends, some things that I saw in public between parents and children. And so when I went to university, I studied psychology. And then I eventually went on to UC Berkeley. I earned my master's in social welfare. And I worked as a social worker in California for several years. At that time I was living with my

then boyfriend, now husband, and we had met in Peace Corps in Senegal and knew that we wanted to get back overseas. So at some point we just kind of decided to do that. So I left my social work job, we moved to Thailand, we lucked into positions at a local international school in Phuket and did not have teaching qualifications, but the school had a couple needs that we were able to fill for one year on an emergency basis.

And then with the understanding that if we wanted to stay, we had to go get our teaching certificates. So we did. And then we both eventually got our educational leadership certificates as well. And through working in international schools, I was an elementary teacher and then a principal. And then I worked at headquarters of an organization that runs international schools in, 36 international schools in I think about 30 countries at the time I was working there.

And my job at headquarters was supposed to be working on accreditation with international schools. And I did do that. That way I did do that job. I also took on the role of being a child safeguarding and protection lead for all 36 schools because this was in 2016. And a case had just broken where a teacher who had worked at multiple international schools over a long career.

Debbie Downes (07:44.424)

it was revealed that he had been abusing students at each school. And so he had been able to sexually abuse hundreds of students over a long teaching career. And that became very public. So international schools were finally confronted with the reality that we're not safe from this. This kind of abuse is happening in our school. And I, over my career as a teacher and principal at international schools, also felt, you know,

At the end of every day, the sleep I lost at night was about what we weren't doing in terms of child safeguarding and protection at our schools because there were students who we knew or suspected anyway were not safe in their homes. And I don't think that we were doing enough at that time to help them and their families to make sure that homes were safe environments for them.

So when this case finally broke in 2015, international schools started acting and putting together child safeguarding protection programs, including teams of educators who would address any concerns that arose at schools. So I did that, put programs in place at all 36 of our schools, and through that work was working with the International Center for Missing and Exploited Children because they had gathered all of the resources to support schools in this work.

So when the woman who had my job before me at ICMC was leaving, she kind of tapped me, said, please apply for this position. I did. Here I am. And I could not be more thankful to be able to use my social work background and then to be able to help a much broader range of international schools because I work all over the world now with any schools who need me. So it's been a wonderful transition. And the more I do this work, the more I realize that most abuse has an online component.

You know, it might be an adult contacting a child online to groom them. It might be online bullying between classmates. But we see that a lot of abuse has an online component. And then of course there is, you know, just multiple other threats that only exist online.

Debbie Downes (09:52.19)

really do affect a child's mental health, affect their ability to do their daily functions, to stay awake in school, all of those things. So I think the more, the deeper I get into this work, the more I understand that if we're not keeping online safety as a focus, we're not doing our job to protect children.

Kay Vasey (10:13.998)

Amazing, thank you for sharing. Thank you for sharing. What an incredible journey. mean, it's so interesting, I suppose, if you can look back when you were a child, that sensitive child, wondering, know, the world is so difficult and challenging. And it's, know, and just, if you could just have talked to her at the time and said, don't worry, because you're gonna have such incredible value and impact in your later life, because you're gonna then be in a position where you truly understand children and how to protect them and how

Debbie Downes (10:14.176)

That was a lot.

Kay Vasey (10:43.964)

to empower them in this crazy world that you can't even imagine yet my darling small Debbie. You you you won't even imagine what technology is going to create that you then will as an adult be able to protect so many children around the world with the important work that you're going to do so hang in there sensitive Debbie you know. I also had quite a kind of challenging childhood where I kind of felt often that the world was against me and you know and I've just kind of now dedicated my life to always thinking.

Debbie Downes (11:06.868)

You

Kay Vasey (11:13.8)

about people and planet in whatever way that I can. Always having that kind of service mentality. I need to add value to others, have impact in the world. And if you could just talk to kind of more sensitive children around that and like, don't worry, hang in there, because you guys are going to be the ones potentially that can kind of save the world and patch over the difficulties and help others get through challenging times too. So thank you so much for sharing because I think it's really important for people to understand journeys and how did you get to where you are.

always fascinating to hear everyone's different motivations and journeys to where they are. And it's just been, it's brilliant that you can then now enjoy it as an adult and then being a mother as well of your own children and then kind of guiding them through this whole, you know, crazy information slash digital age that we are living in, So along that way then though, have you had like maybe like pick one unexpected lesson you've learned along the way that's kind of changed the

way that you actually view your work.

Debbie Downes (12:16.906)

Yeah, the more research I do on online safety and helping students to navigate the online world, I'm learning about algorithms, how they can put us in silos, how they can share more radicalized information with us. They might target our interests in a way that addict us, that keep us coming back. And that makes me more and more concerned about healthy boundaries for children.

They're growing up with so much of their lives lived online and no clear boundaries between their online and offline lives. And so I think, yeah, just trying to work within the system that exists and create something, you know, help students to create boundaries within that system because we're never, I don't feel like I'm never gonna be ahead of what children are doing online.

they're always gonna be ahead of me. There's always some new game coming out that has different aspects that might be dangerous to it. You know, I get a lot of specific questions sometimes. Like a TikTok challenge might be ripping through the school community and schools are reaching out to me, what can we do to address this one TikTok challenge? And I'm like, if we keep focusing on this one TikTok challenge or this one AI component that's dangerous or this one game that just came out,

we're never gonna get ahead. We have to have a way of teaching a broad umbrella of safety that can be applied to everything that students do online. So I think that's really where I'm trying to guide my work and where I look forward to working with KID is just figuring out how we can make that broad umbrella of protection that applies to everything students do online.

Kay Vasey (14:01.934)

fascinating. I mean, you're so right. mean, in terms of the algorithms, I have to have a chat with my 12 year old the other day about exactly that. Why do you think that you want these certain items, right? You are being fed these things, you see them as an influencer, etc. And the influencer has them and you want them as well. I had to explain to him, when I grew up, there were things called advertising standards. And those agencies were responsible for what we saw on the television.

advertisements had to be very regulated, etc. What you could show, what time you could show it. There was this thing called the watershed at 9 p.m. in the UK. That's when the adult content would come on, etc. And now with your phone that you now have, right, it's always on and there is hardly any regulation. And certainly none of these influences on social media have very much kind of regulation behind them. That you are supposed to now declare that you are having a paid partnership and buy a brand, for example, but many don't.

don't. And so it's kind of like, you know, is this ever reinforcing kind of algorithm that's kind of feeding you all these things and just be trying to think critically about things that you see online, right? Don't jump on every last like trend and especially as you're saying, certainly not in relation to just retail opportunities, but goodness, what about these crazy, you know,

challenges etc hold your breath and do this and it's like my goodness and I read was the other day there's a quote I think was a few years ago actually I mean maybe 2022 there's an article from the BBC calling them tick-tots so T O T S at the end so children as young as five being on tick-tock because you know at the beginning

Debbie Downes (15:24.566)

Hmm.

Kay Vasey (15:44.076)

TikTok was all just about dancing and having fun, right? But now it's evolved an awful lot. Now on the one hand, you know, it's great. The Economist is on TikTok. Goodness, right? So you can have all this amazing content. But at the other end, there's an awful lot of kind of, you know, perhaps quite toxic stuff that certainly wouldn't have got through any advertising standards back in the day at all. Right? So we do have to kind of like really be careful around these algorithms, what our children are seeing.

and really trying to encourage healthy gaming habits, healthy online habits, and keeping those lines of communication open. Because yes, we cannot be at the forefront. Unfortunately, sadly, we always have to be a little bit reactive because we have no idea what's coming next, right? And it does shock me too. like, my goodness, there's this new thing. You know, I think I was telling you the other day about this new one, Pump.Fun.

which is all around, know, just create a meme coin and anyone can do it. And then they'd like challenging each other to do all these silly things. And I'm not, my goodness, another site that just pops up from almost nowhere where children are also getting involved and being completely exploited. mean, you know, so. No.

Debbie Downes (16:55.732)

And memes aren't always nice, right? Like we've seen some celebrities react to memes that have been made of them that they're like, wow, I didn't know that you could make something so innocent. I did make me look so terrible. Like, yeah.

Kay Vasey (17:09.194)

Exactly. So then moving on to kind of like bit more about your work diving deeper in there. What are the biggest online harms do you think that parents should be aware of today when it comes to the online space?

Debbie Downes (17:26.282)

I think.

Certainly social media in terms of.

you know, FOMO, fear of missing out, feeling excluded. And then in terms of just comparing themselves to others, because of course what we're putting out on social media is showing the best sides, the best aspects of ourselves and our lives. And so if we're comparing our real selves to what we see other people's in other people's social media content, we're never going to feel like we add up. So I think that's something we need to just have conversations with our kids about and our students just to recognize that.

to know that when you're looking at other people's social media content, that's not their life. That's what they're choosing to show you online. And then I think gaming, I do know there's research that's been done that adults are using online games to contact children.

and to begin grooming them for sexual abuse. And so I'm not sure all parents are aware of that. And I think that's something that we do need to focus on. I know that some of what KID's platform addresses that. And so that's fantastic. And I think that's definitely an area for growth of making sure that when students are communicating with other people online, people are who they say they are.

Debbie Downes (18:56.168)

or the communication between children and adults isn't allowed, that parents are able to block that kind of communication.

Kay Vasey (19:05.496)

That's absolutely right. I think ultimately, you know, what we're trying to do, part of what we're trying to do is create technology that is fitting to the digital maturity of the child. And who knows their child best is the trusted adults in their lives. Now, whether that's a parent, whether that's an educator, whether that's a guardian, we want to bring that person into the picture and say, well, you tell us.

Debbie Downes (19:19.135)

Mmm.

Kay Vasey (19:31.074)

Do you think this child is ready for text chat, voice chat, all of these different things? Because in your country, where you are based, based on the age of this particular child, they're allowed to have all of these things, but you tell us whether or not they're actually ready for them. And then we, on the other hand, want to work with amazing organizations like ICMEC to then power that parent-child or guardian-child conversation so that we're like, okay.

if your child isn't digitally mature enough to have text chat, voice chat, et cetera, because maybe they've already been bullied, or maybe when you have that conversation with them, that kind of testing, would you say your name to someone, or would you tell someone where you go to school, et cetera, and they're like, yeah, yeah, I probably would, yeah, they're really friendly, these people, then maybe that is a little red flag as the trusted adult there to be like, hmm.

sure they are ready actually. And then here are some resources, really amazing materials, multimodal learning approaches. If you're a visual learner, or audio learner, know, a reading learner, or a kinesthetic learner, you're then able to then get hold of the resource and, I understand now how to power that parent-child conversation and then, you know, not overreact to a digital technology scenario that might be challenging and not like, right, I'm just taking

it all away and you know I just have to lock it all down and actually keep that lines of communication open and how to then bring that kind of trust into that picture and that knowledge is power and then we go forward together into the digital world. So yes I think you're so right in relation to the things that we need to look out for and but as you exactly as you were saying earlier there are more things coming.

Debbie Downes (21:11.03)

100 % Yeah.

Kay Vasey (21:22.562)

Right, so be on your guard. You you've talked about social media. We've talked about now adults using gaming as well.

beyond your guard because there are more things coming up in the kind of web three and probably web four, et cetera, beyond that we can't even imagine right now. But I'm hearing also that AI is making it in some senses quite a lot easier for fake sexual exploitation images to be made and then using those to then further exploit children, all sorts of things. I went to the We Protect Summit and that was very much a whole session around how, yeah, know, we

are bad actors using AI, causing real issues. However, on the flip side, please don't lose hope because we can harness AI for good and then also help to fight those bad actors too. So it's like, goodness me. But it's it's a net, you know, this is a work in progress and it will constantly always be a work in progress. I don't foresee a time in future where I'll be like, well that sorted that then. We've, we've solved the problem of online safety. Done. Tick. You know, and off we go. Right. So it's so important.

Debbie Downes (22:22.25)

Yeah.

Debbie Downes (22:27.574)

Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Kay Vasey (22:29.056)

Yeah, let's not hold our breath on that one. But in terms of going back to what you actually do every day then, could you walk us through a typical day in your role? What does protecting children from such harms that we've been talking about look like actually on the ground?

Debbie Downes (22:31.593)

Yeah.

Debbie Downes (22:46.186)

If it's okay, I'm gonna tackle a week because if I pretended I do all of this in a day, I wouldn't have time to breathe. So generally within a week, I will have done a few workshops. Those might be virtual workshops or they might be in person at a school. Usually when we do do workshops in person, we try and involve as many schools in the region as possible.

Kay Vasey (22:52.993)

Absolutely.

Debbie Downes (23:11.326)

And that those workshops would be focused on educating educators and others who work with children in the school setting to successfully safeguard children in that setting. And that includes, you know, making sure that everyone who works with children at the school deserves that privilege, is a safe person to is a trusted adult for those students. And then also making sure a school knows what to do if they have a concern that a child's being harmed in any other environment.

outside of the school. We do offer an online safety workshop and pretty much every time I give it, which is every few weeks, I have some updates to make to it because of everything we've just been saying that this is never like a, I made the online safety workshop and I can give this for the next 10 years. Nope. Like every single time there's something to update in there. Whether it's some new research that's come out or a new, you know.

AI, we've massively updated it when students started interacting with AI. And then we also do weave online safety into almost all of our other workshops, just because, like I said, it's often a component of abuse of children. And it might also, it's often where the grooming happens. And so if we can catch it when it's in the online form, then we might prevent it happening offline.

I spend a lot of my time collaborating at ICNIC. I'm in a department of one. My title is director of global school initiatives. I direct myself and the program. So I spend a lot of my time collaborating and I'm very thankful for collaborations. I collaborate on policy writing.

So a couple of policies I'm working on right now related to online safety. Some schools have reported having trouble when they bring in an outside consultant to campus. So they can background check the consultant, make sure when the consultant's on campus that they're never alone, unsupervised with students. So keep it all safe there. But what has happened in a couple cases is that the consultant has shared their social media. Follow me on Instagram. And then the students do. And now...

Debbie Downes (25:19.392)

those students are having chats with an adult on an unregulated platform, on a platform that's not school supported. And then the conversations might not be going where the student intended initially. And there might be some grooming in there. So how can we solidify our policies to make sure that there are repercussions, that...

that anyone who does have contact with our students follows the school's social media and communication policies around online communication between adults and students, and that there are some repercussions when the policy isn't followed. Another kind of brainstorming session I've just started, I have a colleague who works in the LGBTQ plus space in international schools, and she and I were talking last week and she mentioned that schools are coming to her for help because...

A student who might identify as being part of the LGBTQ plus community or might have been identified, their peers might perceive that they're part of that community. Someone at the school creates an anonymous online account focused solely on bullying that kid.

And so how do we, number one, prevent that from happening in the first place? And number two, empower bystanders to speak up when they see this happening. And number three, protect the child who's the target of the bullying. So how can we respond effectively to that? So I'm super thankful to have, I'm working with Dr. Emily Meadows on that and she is just absolutely the expert in this space. So I'm very thankful to work with her on that. And then,

Debbie Downes (27:17.482)

because I think parents and caregivers, as we've said, they're in the best position to support their children and having a healthy online life. So I'm very happy, you know, this partnership with KID is very timely in doing this. And then there are other colleagues who I'm happy to work with.

Over the past few years, I've been thankful to partner with CASEL on creating standards and benchmarks for an SEL and child safeguarding curriculum that international schools can use to implement such a curriculum in their schools. And of course, all of those online safety is enmeshed. And we are thankful that was supported by a grant from the US Department of State Office of Overseas Schools.

I gather resources constantly to share on the ICMEC Ed Portal, which is where we share free resources for everyone who works with children and parents and caregivers and the students and children themselves. And then a lot of those resources are, of course, focused on online safety, especially what we've been adding recently. Designing new workshops and revising old workshops.

and I'm sure there's more. But that's what's coming to my mind right now in a typical week.

Kay Vasey (28:34.222)

It's a lot, it's a lot. Yeah.

No, amazing. I can't wait to hear more about the Parents as Partners program. That sounds right up our street and fascinating because some of the other amazing guests that we've been able to interview at some of the other world's most respected safety organizations also talk about it in the sense that, you know, they work on a case by case basis because they're always learning exactly as you say. There's always something new, always something changing. It was like, goodness, like two weeks ago, I've never heard of a case study like this. But actually now, because I now know this, I need

to kind of include this and tweak my materials a little bit to include this because it's very important that kids and parents and educators know about this new thing. So as we were saying earlier, it's kind of an ongoing work in progress, And we as people who work in the industry, we just have to keep our hopes up that what we are doing is effective and then we measure as much as possible and then keep going forward and do not lose hope.

in the sense that we still need to stay focused as well on solving real world systemic problems because bullying that happens in the real world is simply amplified by technology. So we need to kind of like, the important work that you do going in, in the real world, speaking directly to children in real life is so important because otherwise, and if there's like,

Debbie Downes (29:51.19)

Yep.

Kay Vasey (30:06.338)

funding that's cut from these types of programs and activities in the real world, we will just continue to have all of this kind of toxic behavior, bad actors, et cetera, amplified by technology. And we must not lay the ills of humanity at technology's feet for it to kind of just... And we cannot expect that a place like social media, a place like gaming would be totally...

clean place and a totally safe place. We can hope and we can try with technology like KID. We can try with amazing expertise from ICMEC and the other partners and we do our best but there will always unfortunately be kids who fall through the net and that is a kind of like sad fact of reality. You you have to also realize that you know when we had for example when

seatbelts were introduced in cars. It was in the 1960s. It was not until the 1980s that we actually had to wear them by law. So there are still people in this world that unfortunately die in car accidents, even with the seatbelts on. So we won't be able to save everyone, but we will always absolutely do our best acknowledging the fact that because technology is always changing, it is this dynamic creature, we have to just kind of like go with the flow.

Debbie Downes (31:05.654)

Mm-hmm.

Kay Vasey (31:27.116)

Debbie Downes (31:50.902)

When you say to parents, I want you to come to school and see your child present, parents come.

toward as we do continue to work in schools on their online safety.

Kay Vasey (33:03.404)

Debbie Downes (33:24.33)

think I'd go back to those algorithms because I think that's the root of a few problems is, you know, algorithms manipulating us and we know that children are more manipulatable online and in real life also. And so when out, when algorithms are used to target children, to keep them online, to keep them on a game longer than they might be healthy or in a conversation longer or to even

introduce them to things, you know, they start, we've seen cases where someone starts looking online into a healthy diet and then all of a sudden they're being shown images that are promoting eating disorders, right? And so we know that that happens in other areas as well. If a student who may be,

does feel like they belong to the LGBTQ plus community, isn't quite ready to talk to someone in real life about it, might start doing internet searches about it. Initially, hopefully they find some safe places like Trevor project to explore this, but they might also get thrown down other holes connected with other other rabbit holes connected with other people. And all of sudden getting information that's more harmful than helpful in that space and can even lead to grooming and sexual abuse. So I think.

if we could get rid of the algorithms that take people there, that would help us some other problems. Curious what you think about that because tech space is not one I inhabit as much as you do.

Kay Vasey (34:49.41)

Yeah, absolutely.

No, I I was close to deleting a lot of my social media profiles for exactly that reason, right? And you do kind of simple search for like a wedding gift for your friend. And then suddenly, because the album maybe has a little glitch and it doesn't get it quite right, then I'm being fed loads of like wedding dress adverts and all that kind of stuff. I'm like, I got married years ago. So I'm like, I do not need these things. And so, of course, exactly as you say, imagine me being a Gen Alpha kid in that scenario, right? why am I being like, know, advertised all these things?

Debbie Downes (35:13.524)

Yeah.

Kay Vasey (35:24.0)

and what they can establish. I my goodness, they just don't understand the power of the algorithm. And so I wish that we were able to have more open and honest conversations about how the technology works and then to be more, you know, even on a basis of kind of maybe saying.

this could be a future career for you. Maybe you want to be like a software developer and therefore you need to understand how algorithms work and how actually easy it is to manipulate people. And maybe you could do something good with this type of technology, right? Because yes, I do feel, especially in recent years when there's been kind of a lot of expose of different things that have actually happened at social media companies and the largest ones, and we all had no idea, right? that's what you're using our data for and that's

much you're manipulating us and yeah I don't see you know the feed in my social media feed in chronological order no no it's all the things that you want me to see and that you're then kind of reinforcing these particular kind of like little mini thoughts I might have had throughout a day I mean our brains we don't even truly understand as human beings right there's still a lot of research into how our brains work in the first place so you know do we really need to have our children being manipulated so heavily it's you know it's a big question

question, But it's a difficult one as well at same time because I totally understand that social media has been very, very helpful to certain children, right? Like in terms of some channels which are highly educational, for example, extremely inspiring, for example. know, it's, and when you have certain governments around the world saying, hey, you know, we should be banning all of this stuff.

It also doesn't make you kind of think maybe this is not the right.

Kay Vasey (37:12.878)

because there's an awful lot of good that happens in social media and we need to actually educate kids and have open honest conversations about it to then try to encourage those healthy habits and critical thinking about what they're actually seeing and hearing, right? So yeah, it's a difficult one. And again, one that we're not just gonna crack by waving our magic wands, but we continue to kind of...

dynamically evolve within this space. And so then in terms of KID, how do you actually see this collaboration with KID empowering parents and making a difference in children's online experiences?

Debbie Downes (37:54.05)

The more I'm learning about KID, the more I love that you've partnered with apps, online games, and that you're making it easy for children and their parents and caregivers with minimal work on their side to empower their kids to stay safe online.

And I'm excited to learn how I can support this approach, making it easy rather than burdensome or even scary for parents to support their kids online safety. Because I think, you know, of course parents and caregivers have every interest in making sure their kids are protected online. But I think once you start looking into the dangers, there is a lot of scary information out there.

And again, because our kids are so far ahead of us in what they're doing online, it can feel really burdensome for us to try and catch up. So I think KID has just made it so simple for parents to go to one spot, get their kids to access games and apps through the KID portal. Yeah, anything I can do to support that and get the word out there that this exists. I'm really excited to figure out how we can work together.

Kay Vasey (39:01.036)

Yay, thank you so much. And we cannot wait to shine a light on the really important work that you've been doing, right? So instead of it just being Debbie who goes into a few schools and, you know, tries to do as much as she possibly can, I can't wait to then be like, shine a huge spotlight on what you're doing and bring it to so many more people around the world, because we really can use technology for good in these scenarios and kind of say, look, know, on one hand, we may be able to leverage the power of AI to remit

Debbie Downes (39:17.046)

Mmm.

Kay Vasey (39:31.092)

Debbie Downes (39:51.06)

Yes, exactly.

Kay Vasey (39:52.128)

of the top world safety organisations. So I think it's going to be really amazing to work with you, so I'm really excited.

Debbie Downes (40:24.256)

I do too, and I think it is just generally so exciting.

that passion. mean, this is very exciting. So, yeah, very happy to be working with you all.

Kay Vasey (41:04.846)

Debbie Downes (41:26.132)

I do, this doesn't work in all families, but I think a good start can be a contract, a family contract, where the family sits down and draws up a contract about devices and online use. You know, it might, there might be rules on there, like we don't bring our phones to the dinner table, or we have an hour of tech-free time after dinner where we play a family game.

something like that, offline has been really helpful for my family. So I am a non-gamer, married to a gamer and with two kids who are gamers. So I have had to learn to play offline games that are a little bit out of my comfort zone. You know, they're more into very strategic games. I've, and fantasy games, Dungeons and Dragons type things. So I'm definitely experimenting and trying to find games that I enjoy more in that world. I also am

heard a great interview on Adam Grant's podcast with a woman who is a middle school teacher and she recommended a few games for non-gamers. we've won something about Edith Finch. It was so good. And so I found some online games that I will play with my family that I do enjoy. I know that's not getting them offline, but it is at least like finding ways that I can interact with them and find out what they're doing. And like you keep saying, keeping those open lines of communication. But I do think that

Family games offline are a very easy way to engage the family. And then, you know, there's always conversations during games. And so I think it...

It builds safe spaces within our families where our kids know that they can come and talk to us.

Kay Vasey (43:07.086)

Yeah, I completely agree. think I'm kind of halfway as well. I'm not fully a gamer and I kind of grew up with it a little bit, but I've tried really hard to join my two sons who are 10 and 12 in their kind of like Roblox games or Fortnite games or kind of like, as you say, like other little offline games as well. And it really, really helps because it's not like I have to do it all the time. It's not like I have to like, know, okay, I now have to make time and

my diary to kind of sit down and really get into Fortnite. But just even just that little bit means so much to them because then they're able to be like,

just a tiny bit has been so powerful and groundbreaking for us as a family. My husband doesn't game at all, right? So he's then like, okay, well, can we, you know, there are other things that we can do with daddy that...

don't involve any video games or offline games, but then he loves to teach them about little things like 3D printing or music making and using a little bit of technology to make a sound and that kind of stuff, which are his passions, right? And then, as you say, making sure you spend some time on that family contract, being like, maybe there's things where it's like, let's make sure we just go out for a cycle ride altogether at the weekend or just do something totally nothing to do with the online world and having that balance.

Debbie Downes (44:38.39)

Mmm.

Kay Vasey (45:01.21)

and just making it like a, it's a pretty cool thing that we should have a balance, right? And I think that if you ask them that question rather than, we need to have a balance, you need to have less screen time, blah, blah, blah. If you can approach it as more like a question and a kind of like, yeah, what do you think? Should we have a balance? And they're like.

Debbie Downes (45:18.806)

Mm-hmm.

Kay Vasey (45:21.002)

stop and think for a yeah, probably a good idea actually, you know? So it's like, just again, it's the way that you can approach these conversations without kind of alienating your child to be like, they just don't understand, they're just so clueless, they don't understand anything about my video gaming world and I'm just gonna do this with my friends and then the more that you do that, then you shut yourself out from their little world where they are so happy, but then yet, potentially still in danger.

Debbie Downes (46:01.142)

Excellent. Yeah, I like what you just said there about approaching all the conversations we have around this with students with curiosity and not judgment, because that's definitely part of how we react when we do have a concern. So some things that parents and caregivers might look out for if students are...

Children are feeling scared, feeling nervous maybe about online use, feeling stressed if they're separated from their device. Any drastic changes in behavior. You know, not eating enough, not sleeping enough. Really being stressed about the need to be online. Being secretive about what they're doing online. know, lots of switching screens or, you know, holding the device so parents can't see what's going on on there.

Being angry or withdrawn after being online. Having lots of new contacts or followers. And then anything like academic decline, some sudden mental health issues, physical health issues like feeling sleepy, changes in eating, and then pulling away from family and friends. And with all of those, I do want to say those all might be...

signs that something's going on online, they might also not be. You know, a lot of these things are... have perfectly normal explanations and the child's not in danger of harm. Like, my own children for a while were very angry when they got off their devices. And my reaction, again, as a non-gamer was, fine, then you don't get your device tomorrow. If you're act like this, when you get the online time, then tomorrow you're not gonna get it. And my husband said, hang on, hang on, and talked to them.

And what it was was that they were much younger and they were given 30 minutes of online time to play a game every night. And whatever game they were playing, it took about 40 minutes to level up. So every night they were going through this level, getting to the point where they were about to level up and then mom was like, get off your device. And so they're getting off all mad. And so we compromised and made it 45 minutes of online time, a few nights a week so that they could get that level up. And...

Debbie Downes (48:06.986)

then they weren't angry when they got off anymore. So I think it is just a matter of approaching all of these. When you see this happening, approach with curiosity, not judgment. Don't assume something's going on. Just try and find out what's the root of the behavior. And then always, we wanna be positive and supportive. Let our children know that they did the right thing in coming to talk to us. If a child does come and say something that really scares us like,

you know, mom, I'm really, something's going on online. I've shared an image that I shouldn't have shared, and I think it's been shared to a wider audience than I meant. The last thing we wanna do is say to our child, well, why would you do that? I told you not to share an image. Now we've stopped that conversation, and they don't think they can come to us for help anymore. So we wanna make sure when a child does come and say, hey,

I've done this thing you told me not to do online. We need to understand their prefrontal cortex isn't blocking everything it should yet. It's not telling them, don't do that, it's dangerous. Their brains are encouraging risk taking behavior. So they're gonna make mistakes online. So when they come to us for help, we need to say, thank you, you've done the right thing. We're gonna get through this together. I'm here for you. Talk through some steps of what we can do to address this. Invite the child's input in how to address it.

Something we do want to talk to parents and caregivers about is trying to avoid viewing images of child sexual abuse material.

You know, it can be really, it can re-traumatize the child if we see the image and it can traumatize us. You know, especially if it's our own child or a child we care about to see an image of them in a sexually suggestive or naked photo. That's something that will never leave us. So if a child says, I've shared an image and tries to show the phone, say, you know what, if I look at it, what am I going to see? And then we're just going to help you without looking at the image. I'm going to help you try and get it off the internet. And there are resources out there for getting child sexual abuse material off of the internet.

Debbie Downes (50:07.268)

There's one that's done through NCMEC, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. It's called Take It Down. And then the Internet Watch Foundation. There's a link right from NCMEC's front-facing webpage to report child sexual abuse material and help get it removed. So parents should know about those resources that they can get help from.

If there is someone abusing a child online, we want to take screenshots of the offending profile and then block that profile. Stop the chat.

you know, block the account, report to law enforcement if a law has been broken, definitely report to the app that it's happening on. Don't confront the offender online ourselves, leave that to the authorities, and then immediately seek emotional support for our kids because we know that there's a high risk of self harm. In cases where a child has been targeted for abuse online, there's a really high risk of self harm up to and including suicide. So we want to make sure we get emotional support immediately.

Kay Vasey (51:11.064)

Thank you so much for sharing. That's really, great. I think, and ultimately, as you say, keep those lines of communication open because you never quite know what is the cause. So hopefully for parents and educators out there listening, majority of the time, it won't be something horrible. It may be something as simple as, if changes in behavior are like, I was literally about to get that victory royale and I couldn't. So I've totally been there as well with my kids. And it wasn't until I started playing with them that I

Debbie Downes (51:27.296)

Mm-hmm.

Kay Vasey (51:41.008)

realised, you've been grinding so hard in this game. And of course, me now telling you, no, you have to come for dinner right now, otherwise you're not going to have that screen, et cetera, is not helpful, right? So yeah, so now I'm very much more empathetic to the worlds in which they're living. And I think that that's really, really improved our relationship. In relation, I think they feel much more respected by me and they feel that I'm much more of a kind of not a clueless parent, but very clued in and empathetic to what they're actually going through.

Debbie Downes (51:50.752)

Mm-mm.

Kay Vasey (52:10.928)

But yes, so absolutely, but if something is uncovered, and I thank you so much for sharing the different resources out there that can be a tremendous support in very difficult situations. And so we're sadly coming to the end of our amazing conversation. I've enjoyed it so much. But we've just got a couple of things to ask you. if you just had one single message to parents raising kids in today's digital age, what do you think that that would be?

Debbie Downes (52:39.094)

It's one that you've said a few times already. Be curious, not judgmental. Talk to your children what they do online, who they're spending time with, what they're sharing online. Just keep those lines of communication open. Let them know you're interested in what they do online and that you do want to hear from them if there's something that they need help with online. And then make sure students or children know that when they come to us for help,

We're not going to blame or shame them for getting themselves into the situation in the first place. We do have resources to help. We will use those resources and we will help the child undo as much as possible whatever they've done to get themselves into harm online. Because again, we know that the risk of self harm is huge when a child's been a target online. And so we do want to make sure that our children know they can come to us. We are safe and we will get them help.

Kay Vasey (53:38.84)

Brilliant, thank you so much. And as a final question, MythBusters question, what is a myth about online safety that you'd like to bust right here, right now?

Debbie Downes (53:49.854)

I love this question. One myth that I would like to bust is stranger danger online. think, you know, within the past 10 to 20 years, we've stopped teaching stranger danger as the only form of child protection because we know that most people offline who abuse children are known well to the child. The same is actually true online.

There was recently a study done by Crimes Against Children Research Center at the University of New Hampshire. And they found this is solely with American students, but I do believe it can be applied more widely. 62 % of perpetrators of online sexual abuse of children were acquaintances of the child in the offline life.

And 33 % of perpetrators of online abuse were intimate partners of the children who were abused. So meaning, you know, preteens or teens who are in relationships. So I think as much as we do need to make sure our children are aware of who they're interacting with online, what they're sharing online with strangers, we also need to let them know that it might be people they know who are.

breaking trust online are crossing boundaries and when that happens they should also come to us for help.

Kay Vasey (55:10.698)

Excellent, thank you so much for that really, really important reminder. That reminds me of something that the Breck Bednar story with in the UK where there's a foundation now set up in his name because he was sadly groomed by an 18 year old. So it's very much not the kind of image of the old hairy white man sitting and kind of like trying to get to kids and groom them. It could absolutely be somebody who's a fellow teenager. yes, so stay vigilant and stay informed.

Debbie Downes (55:29.462)

Mm-mm.

Debbie Downes (55:42.344)

And one other myth, if I may. I think that there was, not sure if hope is the right word, but kind of a thought that with the advent of generative AI, that child sexual abuse material might become a victimless crime. And that has not borne out. Stanford University did a study. They found that...

Kay Vasey (55:44.568)

Close.

Debbie Downes (56:06.536)

AI has been trained on child sexual abuse material on real images. Somehow it was on the dark web. And so when AI generates child sexual abuse material, it is often revictimizing children who were abused in real life. And or perpetrators might put in an image of a child, an innocent image of a child who they fantasize about and then have AI create sexual content using that child's image.

So we know it's not a victimless crime. Like you said, the good side of this is that AI can help us. Organizations are turning to AI to help get child sexual abuse material off the web, but it is also creating some of the content that's on there. yeah, hopefully we'll start to steer AI in a positive direction when it comes to helping with child sexual abuse material and getting it off of the web instead of putting more out there.

Kay Vasey (57:01.58)

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for your sharing today, Debbie. It's really, really been a fantastic journey through all of your journey to today and then also through the work that you do and the future looking as well. So I cannot wait to work really closely with you in 2025 and beyond. And yeah, thank you so much for your time and see you very soon.

Debbie Downes (57:19.232)

Thank you so much. And can I?

15 second clips

Debbie:
“Be curious, not judgmental. Talk to your children about what they do online, who they’re spending time with, what they’re sharing.”

Debbie:
“One myth I’d like to bust is stranger danger online… it might be people they know who are crossing boundaries.”

Debbie:
“If a child does come and say something that really scares us, the last thing we want to do is blame them. We need to say, ‘Thank you, you’ve done the right thing—we’re going to get through this together.’”

Example Individual Episode Introduction for Debbie Downes: Greetings and Salutations! I’m Kay and I bet if someone shared this podcast with you, chances are you’re looking for ways to help kids and teens navigate the online world. I’m here to help you build confidence in the digital age, and the best way to do that is by asking online safety experts for practical tips that power conversations and actions. To get confident, we need to feel competent and at the heart of it all is a willingness to try.

I spoke with Debbie Downes, Director of Global School Initiatives at the International Centre for Missing & Exploited Children. Debbie is based in Tbilisi, Georgia and she trains educators and works directly with kids and teens in schools. She is here to remind us to be curious, not judgmental as we help young people to navigate the online world safely.

Outro by Kay