Strangers in the living Room: The hidden dangers of a digital childhood with Jess Leslie from ChildFund

In this powerful episode with Jess Leslie, Director of Online Protection Programs at ChildFund International, we uncover the unsettling truth about digital childhoods—and what it means when a child says, “There are a lot of people here today,” while playing a game. Jess shares how a career in combating gender-based violence and child exploitation led her to the frontlines of online safety, where the threats are invisible but deeply real. Key highlights include:

• Jess’s journey from tackling human trafficking to leading child online protection across 24 countries
• Why screen time limits aren’t enough—and the deeper conversations families need to be having
• The importance of trust-building over rule-setting when guiding children online
• Insights into how trauma and digital risks intersect in today’s childhoods
• How ChildFund is driving global change through education, policy, and platform accountability
• Practical tips for parents: from asking the right questions to creating safe digital spaces at home

Let’s empower families and reshape the digital landscape, together.

Transcript

Kay Vasey (00:00)

Hello, it's Kay, and today I'm joined by Jessica Leslie, Director of Online Protection Programs at ChildFund International. founded in 1938, ChildFund is a global child-focused development and protection agency that works all over the world to ensure children grow up safe and healthy, educated and skilled. Last year alone,

They reached 13.6 million children and family members in 24 countries. In her role, Jessica leads efforts to keep children safe in the online world, continuing ChildFund's legacy of helping people break the cycle of poverty and achieve their full potential. Thank you so much for joining us today, Jess. How are you doing?

Jess Leslie (00:39)

I'm doing well, thanks Kay and thank you for having me today.

Kay Vasey (00:43)

So I'd like to dive in with your work. how did you get to where you are today? what inspired you to focus on protecting and supporting children, especially in the online world?

Jess Leslie (00:51)

Absolutely, I'll start a little bit by telling you what I do. so as you mentioned, ChildFund is a very large organization. We have about 23 country offices. And so my role was created to support those country offices in the work that they're doing to push online safety in their communities. And so we have...

child protection specialists in most of those countries. And I work very closely with many of them. had and we've seen particularly since COVID an absolute increase in country offices telling us, including we do have a country office in the United States, telling us that there has been just an enormous increase in online safety risks that they're seeing in their community, children who have been harmed

in the online space and really seeing it just explode in ways that they feel are now becoming quite urgent. And so a lot of our offices have identified it as a priority for their country. And so I work with them to build their programming, not only around how are they working in communities with children and parents and schools, but also

How are they advocating with their government to create structural changes that help adjust environment in which children living and existing?

Kay Vasey (02:13)

amazing. And then how did you get to get into this world? you have you always worked in child protection or is this have you done other things in your life?

Jess Leslie (02:22)

Yes, so most

of my career has been focused on gender-based violence. And I started early on working on issues of human trafficking and sexual violence, domestic violence, and children have always been part of that. And I think that what really brought me now to the space of working on child protection was really looking at how

trauma, particularly unresolved trauma in childhood, really manifests in adulthood and the really lasting and devastating impacts that that can have on an individual throughout their life and how that affects the brain. And so, you're really trying to think about, how can I support individuals in a space, not only a difficult time, but something that's going to have a really

devastating impact for the rest of their life. With that, and then looking at how, more and more, and again, particularly since the pandemic, that we've started to live our lives more and more online. Our kids, I have three children myself. they love, being on their tablet. They love playing the games and engaging with their friends online. And it is a space that

Frankly, sometimes I feel they know more about than me. But it's definitely something where it just became very, clear that this is something that they have to become very, very well versed in and understand how to navigate in a safe and healthy way. Because so much of their future, whether work, whether school, they do all their schoolwork on a computer is going to have to

deal with technology and so they're going to have to understand how to do so safely. And so for both professional and personal reasons, it is just, it became more more clear to me that this is, this is where I wanted to spend my time.

Kay Vasey (04:10)

Absolutely goodness, I couldn't agree more. I've got two boys who are 10 and 13 and you know, it really is a difficult message for them, right? Because if parents always come and say, hey, get off that screen, right? But at the same time, as exactly as you say, they spend most of the day on it at school. So it's quite mixed messaging. Like, what is this device actually for?

Jess Leslie (04:19)

Yeah.

Right.

Great.

Kay Vasey (04:31)

home and I use it for entertainment But then you know why you always on at me for screen time a difficult one, right? So I'm kind of trying to in my house try to catch it more in relation to not so much screen time But screen use what are you using it for and are you having a good balanced approach, right?

Jess Leslie (04:44)

Yeah, absolutely.

Kay Vasey (04:49)

has there been then a specific moment that has shaped the way that you've approached your work? is it being a mum or is it being as part of your professional career? Has there been a moment that has really shaped that?

Jess Leslie (05:02)

Yeah, I'm not sure if there's been one moment, but I can definitely think of just moments that have made the issue very real to me and that has been through being a mother. I think so many times, just the other day, my eight-year-old said to me, man, there's a lot, they were playing Roblox and said, man, there's a lot of people here today.

And I just all of a sudden thought, there are strangers in my living room. Not that they could communicate with those people because there are age, there are some blocks there and safety pieces put in place. I not been aware of maybe some of those safety features and parental controls that, maybe another child would be talking with perhaps adults in this game.

I think it's moments like that where it becomes so real to me that they have so much access to things that I don't have control over. And so I think with those moments, I constantly come back down to that, we not only need to equip them to handle these, but we need some very serious structural changes because not everyone has.

the privilege that I think my children do of having a parent who's going to have open conversation with them because they understand the issues a little bit better. And also because I'm working in this space and so I think that there's a lot more we can do to protect children as a whole and make sure that even things that I may not know that you know we can we can all.

protect our children regardless of whether they're physically ours or not.

Kay Vasey (06:37)

I'd love to know as well, though, is there something surprising that you've learned along the way? And has it changed the way that you actually think about your role?

Jess Leslie (06:46)

I think that one of the things that that always sort of comes back down comes back to me is that structural changes are hard. and so, for me, I keep thinking about we need more measures in between to really

take us through to what will hopefully ultimately be structural changes, but structural changes can take decades. And I think that can be a really frustrating thing, but that can also be a real opportunity. And so I think, that's something that, doesn't always surprise me, but then when, bills don't get passed in governments, you think, man, why wouldn't they do that? It's so obvious.

it just happens time and time and again. And so we have to think about, OK, how are we equipping parents and how are we partnering with the right organizations that can, hold campaigns and education initiatives and how do we work with schools?

it's definitely something that is a constant reminder to me that we need to focus on everything we can do in between while we wait and continue to fight for that structural change.

Kay Vasey (07:55)

Amazing, thank you. And following on from that, it sounds like you spend a lot of time thinking through how you bring people together. Do you work with other organizations as well in the field? I know it's quite fragmented and there's lots of online safety organizations. Do you often find yourself forming an alliance with some of them? And how does that look from your perspective?

Jess Leslie (08:17)

Yes, absolutely. Well, think that one of the things, from the programmatic perspective, one of the things that we're very keen to do is make sure that we're not duplicating efforts. So when and where there are other organizations that are doing similar type work, partnering with them always makes sense because that way we can fill in where the other may have some gaps. And so we always want to make sure that programmatically

we can continue to collaborate in that way. And then on the policy side as well, that is a real important space where collaboration is absolutely necessary. One organization can't move things forward. We really have to do so in a collective. in the United States, we have a coalition, we host a coalition that specifically addresses the online sexual abuse and exploitation of children.

the OCEAC coalition and it is more than 20 organizations that are working to push policy changes with the United States government because most of the big tech companies reside in the United States. So, that is a really important place where partnerships are just so critical. And then I think the third with education is really important and this is also

Why our partnership with k-ID is so important is that we really have to be able to fill in the knowledge gaps that we have with each other. You all have such tremendous technical expertise and ways that we could only dream of. we're there working with the communities and survivors and children directly. And so it's a good way to be able to share knowledge and better both the work that each of our

our entities are doing and organizations are doing. those are all really important ways. so partnerships and collaboration is so critical on so many levels in all the work that we do.

Kay Vasey (10:03)

Absolutely, I absolutely cannot wait to really ignite our partnership around, just the starting point of resources. one of the things that we notice is that, you guys have such incredible resources that whilst you go into schools and you do the work and on the ground, is it possible that, we could take them and using new innovative methods, really remix them and transform them? so perhaps a long form written report.

Jess Leslie (10:10)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kay Vasey (10:29)

could become a short visual comic strip, could become an audio podcast, because everyone learns in different ways, right? So you have the visual learners, the audio learners, the readers of the world are well catered for, but what about the kinesthetic learners, you know? So really partnering with you is going to be so exciting

Jess Leslie (10:37)

you

and

Kay Vasey (10:47)

what does a typical day in your role look like? What does fuelling these social changes actually look like on the ground when you're going into schools and partnering? What do you do each day?

Jess Leslie (10:59)

Yes.

So, you know, my day looks quite different depending on, what is going on. But I will say that for a lot of our child protection specialists and the work that they're doing, we, for instance, one of the reasons why I was just in Indonesia is that we're running a program called Swipe Safe that engages with parents and caregivers as well as children through

an app as well in teaching them how to navigate the internet safely and what to do and what are the signs to look for with regards to abuse and exploitation of children. so, the training that I went to with caregivers, we literally sat in a room, a community house in the northern part of one of the northern parts of Indonesia and

we had a training in which we talked through all of, not only the material that we had, but we talked through all of the cases and the situations that were going through caregivers' minds. What about this and what about that? Because so much of it as well is that we can have a base of information, but it really has to be tailored to what are the needs of that community. And so being able to inform the training with the concerns that caregivers are bringing.

and not just what we think is the information that we need to give them is a really important part of the work. And making sure that that is also trauma-informed and survivor-centered. A lot of our work also really focuses on how do we bring not only children's voices into the work and the programs that we're designing, but how do we bring survivor voices.

because lived experience is so important in understanding how we can best tackle this issue. And so a lot of the work that I do helps to make sure that we can integrate that into our programming. And then also, the question of resources, we're constantly looking to see how can we best not only tell the story of how we are creating impact in the community,

but also what are our successes because that way we can go to funders and donors and foundations and let them know this is why you should invest in our programming. And so much of that is important because it's hard work to measure. It's hard work to, especially prevention work is so hard to measure, but really figuring out how do we tell the story around the success of this work so that

the world appreciates and will invest in continuing to do so.

Kay Vasey (13:29)

amazing. Thank you so much for sharing. I'd love to know a couple of things off that. is there one achievement that you're especially proud of? And then, you talk about it being difficult to measure. so how do you kind of measure that you kind of made a difference in that way?

Jess Leslie (13:44)

Well, I think to start just to look at how we measure some of our work, we do look at it from three different levels. So the first being the individual level, the second being the community level, and then the third being sort of the structural, more national or global level. And there are different wins that we take away from each of those categories.

When you're looking at the individual level, we often will do surveys and take information about how that individual felt in the training that they did, whether it was helpful, and really try to understand what were the biggest barriers to maybe understanding some of the information or where they felt lost so that we can continue to improve because

that also is success, being able to understand what you can do better. And we've gotten a lot of really positive feedback from our surveys and our trainings. And one thing that is sort of important to recognize and as a sort of side story here, in the nonprofit space, we often talk about the starfish story.

And if you're not familiar with the starfish story, essentially it's about a young person on a beach after a massive storm where, thousands and thousands of starfish have washed up onto the beach. And they are one by one throwing the starfish back into the ocean. And an older person comes by and says, why are you doing that?

look at how many starfish are on this beach. You won't even make a dent. And the young person looks back, takes a starfish, throws it into the ocean and says it made a difference for that one. And I think, that is, just a very beautiful reminder and something that we have to constantly tell ourselves is that we can make a difference for one child. That is a huge success.

So I think, being able to focus on that is really important. And then so and moving on to the community level, we look at, our reaches and how many schools are we able to impact and what's the feedback we're getting there? how many more schools are asking for the curriculum

that our local partners or our country offices are developing? Are we able to get into spaces that have a lot of visibility, like the computers in the school where kids access on a regular basis? Is there an icon just sitting there on the desktop? Are we able to work with counties and cities or municipalities on

ensuring that they have to teach online safety in their schools. So I think that's where we're looking at, success on the community level. And then the third, with structural level, every time we pass any bill in any country, it's a huge win. And so, we've been able to do so in bits and pieces. And a lot of times, there's not going to be one massive bill that's going to fix everything.

one piece of legislation that will fix everything. It's going to be a collection and pieces and baby steps. And so every time we're able to do that in a country, a little bit here, maybe addressing grooming in one country, maybe addressing age verification in another, these little baby steps get us closer and closer to our goal. And so making sure that we're celebrating those successes and recognizing.

that it'll probably take a thousand steps to get to where we want to go and then there'll be a new problem. it'll take a thousand steps to get there on the structural changes and making sure that we can, we can pull from that.

Kay Vasey (17:16)

I find that so interesting and I love your starfish story in relation to it sounds like the design and your approach is extremely human centered and I love that because ultimately we can design all day long and think in a vacuum and say I think this is the right way and this is how we're going to get through to these people but it's not until you actually

ask that person, ask that community, how did we do, how could we be better, did we actually engage you, do you understand the materials and what we've tried to communicate with you today, that you don't actually get that true feedback and that true understanding of the success of your efforts. So super, super well done and in relation to the national level as well, it sounds, yes, piece by piece, step by step.

This is not something that we're just going to tick the box and say, all done now, finished. The problem of online safety has gone away. We've put it in the box. We put a bow on it and it's done. Next topic, please. No, this to be something that is a very dynamic shape shifting issue that will continue to need the expertise and the approach that

amazing organisations like ChildFund

And so thank you. Thank you very much for the work that you do. Is there, though, when I pick out what you were saying in relation to storytelling and when you're speaking to the people that you are asking for fundraising support and that kind of stuff, are there a few stories or one in particular that you always come back to?

in terms of telling you the success of what you do.

Jess Leslie (18:55)

Yeah, I think and that's always a delicate balance because some of the most powerful stories for me, there's a balance where I also want to make sure that we're respecting that child, right? And so, a lot of what we have to do in our storytelling is making sure that we're able to anonymize that story because

these children have already gone through something pretty horrific. so using that story should always be done in a way that has their protection and their safety and their concerns, front and foremost. But I think the stories that often, sit the highest with me is

the ones that are most difficult, but also that I'm so glad that we're able to do that we're doing this work are those where a child was really just looking for a safe space and someone took advantage of that. And so they were, you know, looking for a friend or they were being bullied and.

they found someone who was, seemingly very supportive of their situation. And they trusted in that individual and it ended up, trusting too much in a way that then got them into a situation that, they were not wanting. And I think that, and the success stories there is that is where we've been able to

train other adults that had access to that child, whether in a school or in another setting that was able to help them find a way out of that situation. And so I think that, again, where it takes the village, it's really important to make sure that, I have several friends who don't have children themselves, but it doesn't mean that they shouldn't understand the risks of

the Internet poses to children because they could be in a situation, whether it's a nephew or niece, someone in their work environment, the more people that were able to really educate in the space, that I think is a huge success. And that's what I keep coming back down to is that it's not just parents, it's not just caregivers, it really is communities and cities and countries.

that need to understand the risks and the signs so well and how to support kids because that safe adult may not be the person we think it's always gonna be. It may not always be the parent. And I can definitely think of situations, I know my kids never wanna let me down and that's something, they expressed in certain situations and I can see where a child would be scared to tell a parent even who they have a good relationship with.

about something like this. And so that's why that village is so important. And so I think that is work that I'm really proud of because it's the way that we're going to be able to support the most amount of children out there, that this is really an issue that everyone should be worried about.

Kay Vasey (21:44)

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. by starfish, child by child, adult by adult. We're all in this together. And I think ultimately, you're absolutely right that it is not something that it should just be confined to youth and families as a matter for them to deal with, right?

the internet is becoming increasingly a difficult place to know how to navigate it, even for adults, because now with the advent of AI, there's an awful lot of information I struggle with. Like, hang on a minute, is that real?

If I'm struggling with this, hang on, how would a young person deal with this? So we all have a responsibility, we all have a duty of care to those around us and especially the young people. where k-ID comes in is we're trying to advocate not to lock children out, but to them and then to campaign for a movement where we have actually a safer and more inclusive internet.

So is there something in particular,

that excites you about working with k-ID and how does it fit your vision for what's coming up for you in the future?

Jess Leslie (22:52)

I think that the thing that excites me the most is the technical expertise that you all bring because, you mentioned it with AI, with, things that are just so changing, just the way that we approach our work. It's hard to understand what does that change mean? How does that impact age verification tools? How does that impact

the way that we're putting in safety measures or parental controls. And I think that, having that tremendous technical expertise really allows us to be able to propose to communities potential solutions that are actually going to be effective. Because I think that is difficult and you also mentioned it too, it's hard to know how does this work.

how do we best tackle this issue that is so complex? And so I think that deep expertise that you all bring is just exactly what we need to make sure that we're investing in solutions that can make a real difference.

Kay Vasey (23:51)

Brilliant, thank you. And through your extensive work though, I'd be really interested to know what your thoughts are, both as a mother but also in your work. How can parents tell if their child is actually struggling with something online and what should they do about it?

Jess Leslie (24:07)

lot of what, and this is where I think people think that there's a huge difference between what goes on online versus offline. And actually what we notice and what we've seen is that the effects are pretty similar.

If a child is experiencing abuse online, the symptoms and what's going on is very similar to what they would express if they were experiencing abuse physically or in person. so what we're really looking for are things that are out of character for a child. So if a child typically gobbles up their dinner and they don't eat much,

or the opposite, they often don't eat much things that are really changes in behavior that are not appropriate for age. We all know, and you know from your own kids, that there is a sort of preteen moodiness, that's pretty normal. But if it's something that seems out of the norm where they are breaking down a lot.

they can't seem to regulate emotions in places where they used to be able to. Those are all signs that something could be going on. Any changes in their group of friends at school as well could be a sign. And these are all things that could be because, kids also lead complex lives and have things going on that they're thinking about and that they're worried about.

we're calling this the anxious generation. And so as who we're raising, and so, they're often worried about things, but anything that is really out of the norm of what we would see of a kid, they love, baseball and they just all of a sudden decide, this isn't for me, or they love to swim and they decide, you know what, I'm not going anywhere near a pool.

that's an invitation, I always say, to ask more questions and to become curious in a non-judgmental way. Because it could be that, yes, they got into a fight with a friend, but it could also mean that someone in the locker room maybe is bullying them or exploiting them in some way. So, it's that invitation to get curious when things are out of the norm for a child.

Kay Vasey (26:11)

Cool. And then from the other perspective, if you could think back to being a teenager and were a teenager today, is there something that you give yourself advice about in terms of how to navigate this crazy digital world we're living in?

Jess Leslie (26:27)

this is something I would also tell my children is that I think we need to use technology with intention and balance. It's not about eliminating it. It's about intention and balance and really focusing on communication with, if something doesn't feel right.

there might be something wrong, trust that, talk to someone about it and think critically, does this seem odd? And it's really important to be mindful of those things because the internet is a strange place and it's not a place that you can trust everything or a lot of things.

Just to be mindful of that and of course not to let it hinder great experiences and learning because it can also be such a tremendous tool to learn about the world and to learn about different people and to create connection. But also, be sure that. We can look around and make sure that

you're setting your own boundaries about what feels good and what doesn't and making sure that, again, going back to that intention and balance, that it's not all encompassing and that when you're online, there's an intention and a purpose that you're gaining from it. And I think that will ultimately lead to healthy habits with the internet and technology.

Kay Vasey (27:49)

Brilliant, thank you. And it sounds like there needs to be this parent-child conversation going on. Do you have any tips for how you start that conversation as a parent? Are you supposed to be playing online games with them day long? Or how do you start to build empathy for these virtual worlds? Do you have any tips there?

Jess Leslie (28:08)

I think that the important way to start those conversations is to acknowledge that. bad things happen and you know if that happens, I am a source of support to you.

you're not going to be in trouble. Because I think typically that's their first concern with a parent is that I'm going to be in so much trouble. I'm going to get grounded or this can be taken away. And so I think being able to acknowledge that sometimes unfortunately bad things happen. But my role in that situation is to support you.

not to judge you. And then to approach it from an education perspective. Just so you know, and something I've often told my kids, if someone talks to you, you don't know them, let me know. So we can talk about it. Not so you can get in trouble, not so I can take away the game, just so I can help you figure out what to do, because that may not be a safe space. It may be, but it may not be.

And so let's make sure that we're talking about it. And so I think it's just leaving that door open for conversation. It's also about leaving the door open for them to ask questions. and allowing them to feel like you can also trust them because whether or not you're sitting over their shoulder, they're just going to feel like a lot of times they, there are things they have to hide.

And so I think allowing some trust to say, that this can be a conversation that, I'm not going to be all over this and take this away. And it's not going to be a restrictive thing if something bad happens, but also know that if anyone asks you for pictures of anyone who doesn't, you don't know, contacts you, let me know, let's talk about this because it may not be safe. So I think just going back down to that.

and understanding those sort of risks and the warning signs of, this isn't right. I don't know them. They shouldn't be talking to me.

Kay Vasey (29:57)

Brilliant. And so as you are seeing technology evolve, is there something in particular that you're really excited to work on next, but that also we need to focus on in relation to protection of children?

Jess Leslie (30:10)

Yeah, I mean, I think I keep going back down to what I mentioned earlier about structural changes take time. So I think what I'm really excited to work on is how do we scale some of the education initiatives? How do we scale some of these knowledge, imparting knowledge and having safe conversations with caregivers and schools and children on a larger scale?

How do we get more support from, communities and governments on educating our children around safe internet usage? I think those are the things that excite me the most because I know that those are the things in the meantime that are going to have the biggest impact.

Kay Vasey (30:52)

Thank you. And we're going to come to a little close now. if you had one message to parents raising kids into today's digital age, what would it be?

Jess Leslie (31:01)

For parents, what I would say to them is be your child's not in setting restrictions, but in modeling healthy tech habits and encouraging intention and balance with regards to the internet.

Kay Vasey (31:16)

I love that, thank you. What's a common myth about online safety that you'd like to clear up?

Jess Leslie (31:21)

I think the biggest one is

that the impact of online abuse is not going to affect them in the same way that physical abuse affects children. Because I think that folks feel like, well, just something happened online, it'll go away. It's not like someone hit them. But when you look at the long-term effects, bullying online is the same as bullying in person. And often because

the internet has a memory, it lives longer, and that can also be more damaging. And so I think just encouraging folks to really think about the very serious impacts of online abuse, exploitation, and violence.

Kay Vasey (32:02)

Thank you, very important reminder. And finally, if you could describe your vision for online safety in three words, what would they be?

Jess Leslie (32:11)

that would be education, accountability and resilience. Education because that is just a powerful tool that equips children themselves and parents themselves to be able to combat this. Accountability because I think we need to ensure particularly tech companies, platforms, games.

take accountability for the risk that they are posing to children, even though they are not intentionally causing harm, that they are creating a space where harm can be caused and there needs to be accountability there. And then resilience, which I think would be the ultimate goal where our communities, our children are resilient to.

the harms and the risks that the internet poses and that they know how to best navigate it in a way that benefits them and is healthy.

Kay Vasey (33:00)

brilliant thank you so much