Dr's said "Impossible" : From Autism to Author, Black Belt, Speaker

Meet Joan and Mike Goodroe. Persistence despite flying in the face of what 8 medical doctors called "impossible". I  would call them superheroes. The effort these parents produced consistently for 20+ years is nothing short of remarkable. They followed their hearts and knew deep down they can get their son to comprehend and read. They even had 2 sets of books for their son in college and read every single word of every single book to him. Jokingly, the parents said they should both have degrees from their sons' school, too! Their story is a blessing to all and it's sure to nudge any parents out there who want the best for their children, but sometimes don't know what that could mean at times.

This episode features the parents Joan and Mike. Be sure to check out the son Michael on this episode:  

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

So an author and a third degree black belt. Let's work through the two of those. Karate started at what year? That was all the way back in kindergarten?

SPEAKER_00: 0:07

Five.

SPEAKER_03: 0:08

Five. Okay, five. And I know he's still active today.

SPEAKER_00: 0:10

You know, I sit there one day and was watching Michael and saw him struggling and I just said, good lord. I said, Michael, come here. You've got to do this. And I was critiquing him like most people do. And he said to me, you know, if you think it's so easy, why don't you get

SPEAKER_01: 0:26

out?

SPEAKER_00: 0:28

I joined and it was some Welcome

SPEAKER_03: 0:38

to another episode of Interesting Humans. Today I have with me Joan and Michael Goodrow, both successful in different avenues of business, but we're not going to focus on business today. Today we're going to focus on a remarkable story of a diagnosis they were staring straight down the barrel of with their four-year-old son. Multiple doctors said that this child will barely be able to speak throughout his life, let alone attend school. Deep down inside, these two folks felt that something was off. They pursued it deeper. Fast forward today, we have a third degree black belt and author of What Autism Gave Me. His name is Michael Goodrow. His parents are here to share their story today. And I promise it's going to be incredibly remarkable. Folks, thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31

Yeah, our pleasure. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 1:33

Yeah, there's so much to this story. So I'm looking forward to unpacking it with the audience. So high level, you all get a diagnosis that would be a nightmare for any parent. And it's not one doctor. It's not two doctors. It's multiple. And you're going to unpack that as the show goes on. It's multiple one after another. But something deep down, you all say, something deep down says something's not right here. There's more. And we're going to roll up our sleeves and get to the bottom of this.

SPEAKER_02: 2:13

That's correct.

SPEAKER_03: 2:14

That's correct.

SPEAKER_02: 2:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 2:15

This story is just so incredible. All right, let's start off, folks. Let's go one at a time and just tell us who you are, where you're at today, grandchildren, children.

SPEAKER_00: 2:23

All right, Joan, you go first.

SPEAKER_02: 2:27

Joan Goodrow, and I'm a mother of two sons, Michael and Nathan, and a grandmother of two grandchildren, Marie and Miles, and a third one on the way. And they are children of Nathan's.

SPEAKER_03: 2:44

Good. Congratulations.

SPEAKER_00: 2:46

And I'm Mike Goodrow, Michael, and I'm Joan's husband, and all of those people she just named are part of our family as well.

SPEAKER_02: 2:56

It's special. Oh, and we have to throw this in. I'm an identical twin, and so my identical twin's daughters, Katie and Jenny, and they have six grandchildren between them, are sort of our other

SPEAKER_03: 3:12

grandchildren. Great. So before we dive in and get right to the heart of this story, I think it's important to note, you all have, in different categories, tremendous success in the business world, from startups and software and healthcare and selling companies to CEO of a very large corporation. So I think that's just important to note that the audience knows because we're actually not going to really get into that stuff, right?

SPEAKER_02: 3:46

But I do think probably the backgrounds helped us sort of manage through the problems with Michael and look for answers. I think because we were used to doing that at our our different work.

SPEAKER_00: 4:08

Yeah. I would agree that it's not that your family's always different than your work life, but yes, Joan's right there. The similar skillset to manage that.

SPEAKER_03: 4:18

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's very important.

SPEAKER_02: 4:19

Yeah. I think, you know, both of us just without talking about it, we have very different approaches, but we, Both of us just kept moving forward and saying, there's more. And Mike's approach was not to look at that testing at all. He never looked at it. And that was fine because he stayed on a very positive track. And then I think I used more of my health care background totally differently. in the way I tried to manage the situation. Right. Same thing.

SPEAKER_00: 4:59

But I think in our roles, we weren't competing. No. We were complementing each other and using our strengths to accomplish that objective of Michael having an independent life. That was the goal. Yeah. It has been the goal from day

SPEAKER_03: 5:13

one. From day one. Yeah. Special. All right. Let's go all the way back to the beginning then.

SPEAKER_00: 5:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 5:17

Where and how did it start? Was it a phone call? Was it a doctor's appointment? What happened?

SPEAKER_02: 5:23

No. No. It was interesting because my identical twin's second daughter is the exact age as Michael. So we could see that Michael had some challenges that Katie didn't have. So you can sort of think of them as twins because, believe it or not, people don't think about this. They have... Her daughters have half the same DNA as Michael. Sure. Because twins have the same DNA, so the mothers, you know. So they stay together, and Katie always took the lead on things and everything. And we noticed that Michael was having trouble answering questions, just simple questions. And so we knew things, but he was in preschool, and they say boys are always delayed. But it was the teacher in the preschool program that said he needs to be tested for his ears. That's where it started. Is he hearing well enough or whatever? And so each test showed hearing wasn't a problem. So then you go on to the next test. Then you go on to the testing that now looks at really what are the problems that the child's dealing with. And it was that test when he was four years old that really uncovered everything.

SPEAKER_03: 7:01

When you say a simple question, like, give me, what's an example? What's your name?

SPEAKER_02: 7:07

Yes. Yeah. Or how old are you or anything? He, he, was not able to answer it, and yet he could talk fine.

SPEAKER_00: 7:15

Yeah, describe to them the test he took where they asked, why is the girl crying, right? Well, why was the boy crying? And all Michael knew at that stage was to mimic back what somebody said to them. He couldn't answer the

SPEAKER_02: 7:28

question. Yeah, he would say, and Michael does a lot of public speaking, and he actually takes questions The results from the test, and this will give you a clue of what 1994 was like, the test results are in cursive writing from the therapist.

SPEAKER_00: 7:54

Remember, there wasn't really an internet that the public could have access to.

SPEAKER_02: 7:59

And that becomes important to the story too, believe it

SPEAKER_00: 8:02

or not,

SPEAKER_02: 8:02

because there was a lack of information in general So Michael shows this slide that, you know, what the therapist is saying, why is the boy crying? And three times the therapist asks the question and three times Michael says, why is the boy crying?

SPEAKER_03: 8:25

Sure. Just repeats it back.

SPEAKER_00: 8:26

Yes, that's right. That was the extent of his language. was the ability to repeat what he heard someone else say.

SPEAKER_03: 8:33

Okay. Yes. Okay. And then, so you get testing, you continue on saying, okay, we're going to get some other opinions. Yes. What was the next step?

SPEAKER_02: 8:43

Yeah, the next step was a very comprehensive test. It took a couple days to do. And then when the results came back, there was just no good news in it. They said his... His IQ was low. And that becomes the stopping point. Because back then, and it's still sort of the same, it was defined that your IQ was your IQ no matter what. That that couldn't change. You know, someone that has a very high IQ has a very high IQ their whole life. So that became the stopping point. But then, probably the big thing was it was not just the word autism. There were pervasive development delay, they wrote, in the results. And they said it's a form that we see in autism. Back at that time, autism was so rare. It was one in 2,000. Today, it's one in 36,000. Wow. Okay. So we're faced with people only thought of autism then based on the movie. Rain Man.

SPEAKER_03: 10:08

Rain Man. Right. Sure.

SPEAKER_02: 10:11

Rain Man. So we decided at that point we would never, ever use the word autism. And what we came up with is we would say that Michael's got a disconnect between his left brain and his right brain. And that's what we told Michael even.

UNKNOWN: 10:33

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02: 10:33

Because we were so frightened that between the IQ, because some people with autism are some of the smartest in the world.

SPEAKER_03: 10:47

Sure.

SPEAKER_02: 10:47

You know, and autism is a spectrum, you know, So many of the inventions we have and everything come from people that have autism with high IQ. And Michael does a great job in his talks of explaining all the different things. But we did not let Michael know the word autism even existed until he was ready to graduate from high school. Because then we knew that that was going to be important. But that sort of gets way ahead of the story. Sure, yeah. So... Then our goal became, we were able to get him into kindergarten, and I say we, I was able to get him into kindergarten. That was because, and this is part of the story over and over again, we were turned down so many times, so many places. But where we found an opening that someone would give him an opportunity to And a kindergarten teacher was willing to take him into her class. And that became, you know, his opportunity to get into kindergarten. Then we knew we'd have to find some special school. And there were several schools at the time. Atlanta wasn't as big as it is

SPEAKER_01: 12:13

now.

SPEAKER_02: 12:14

But there were several schools for learning disabilities. So I started applying to it. Every school, every school. I'm not kidding. Before I thought the mail would get to them, I would get the rejection letter back. All but one school. I mean, it was like, and they would just say, he no more qualifies to come to school. It was to me one of the hardest, hardest parts, thinking that your child could not even go to a special school for disabilities.

SPEAKER_03: 12:49

Sure.

SPEAKER_01: 12:49

It

SPEAKER_02: 12:50

was overwhelming.

SPEAKER_03: 12:53

What kind of questions were they asking on those applications?

SPEAKER_02: 12:56

They had to see the testing results. That's all they asked

SPEAKER_03: 12:59

for. Were they asking any more like black and white stuff? Oh, no, no, no. Any learning disabilities? No, no, no, no. They just wanted to see a result.

SPEAKER_02: 13:05

They just wanted to see the results of the testing. And from that testing, it was like, no, not even maybe. So one school... did not answer us back right away. So I figured I needed to call. And so I called and they said, it was a very small school. It was actually in an old house in Sandy Springs. So very, very small. And we took Michael in for the interview. And they were gonna interview him and us. And we walk in the door And it was a school that at the time took children with behavioral problems. And, you know, if you're not in that realm of understanding, you know, like people don't realize that some children are born with severe behavioral problems. So we walk in the door and they're putting a child in a straitjacket. It would be like, Walking in here.

SPEAKER_03: 14:14

For real? Yeah. A real straightjacket.

SPEAKER_02: 14:16

Yes. So we sit down, and it's no bigger than where we're... This area? Yeah. Right

SPEAKER_01: 14:24

here? Wow.

SPEAKER_02: 14:25

And they call Michael in. The lady that started the school was named Tweety, Tweety Moore. And her office was covered in books. I can't even explain it. Totally from every ounce of it. Every ounce of it.

SPEAKER_01: 14:46

Everything.

SPEAKER_02: 14:47

And the desk was just this little spot. Well, she calls Michael in there. Michael's in there for about 15 minutes at the most. And then she calls us in. And I'll never forget what she said. She looked at us and she goes, your child has no language ability. And I thought, this is it. We're not. And she goes, we'll take him. Okay, but that's not the end of the story. Wow. That's not the end of the story. So we walk out the front door, and Mike looks at me and goes, he's not going in.

SPEAKER_00: 15:26

Right. Well, I had an image of them holding this guy down and putting him in a straitjacket. I know. You know, it was like, no, no. Right. But then Joan, in her infinite wisdom, phrased it and allowed me an out, Jeff. She said, okay, well, if he's not going here, where is he going? And I started naming him off. She said, rejected, rejected, rejected. And so at the end, I said, okay, he's going here.

SPEAKER_03: 15:54

Made it seem like a great choice, right?

SPEAKER_02: 15:57

Yeah, no, but it's so... You know, there's moments in your life that you remember the details like it was yesterday. It's like it

SPEAKER_03: 16:08

was yesterday. That was one of them. Okay, so let's pause right here before school starts. What was life like for you all, for your family? What else was happening during that time?

SPEAKER_02: 16:20

Okay. Okay, one of the things that when he was four, I had gotten him into and diagnosed. I'd gotten him into a type of occupational therapy that I knew existed for kids that are born with disabilities, physical disabilities in particular. And some of them were brain disabilities that I thought, okay, let me get him into this and everything. So through that year and a half before kindergarten, He was in that type of a program, and he had finished up. So I was looking for what's next to help his brain, you know, and everything. And there was a place called Taito Karate.

SPEAKER_03: 17:19

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 17:21

That existed right near our house. And... My twin and I, and there's a nanny named Gita that was involved all along. We go down to karate with Jean's two daughters, Jenny and Katie, and Michael. And they are having them do just some very simple moves, just simple. That's just a movement of the hands. Michael can't accomplish that. It was, again, a devastating moment for me.

SPEAKER_03: 18:09

I

SPEAKER_02: 18:16

go out to the car because I'm about to cry. I just realized this is going to be so bad. And my twin stays in, and she talks to the sensei that it's his place. And he's got three sons, young sons that are there working with him. And I see her nodding and everything. She comes out to the car with a big smile on. She goes, he's going to take him. Oh, yes. He's going to take them and work with them. Right. And everything. And so then we've got a school and we've got Toto Karate. And for us, that was everything we needed.

SPEAKER_03: 19:10

That's incredible. So as we fast forward, and then I want to hear from you, Mike, too, what was life like initially? It's incredible as we're sitting in these chairs right now in 2024, how many degrees black belt is Michael?

SPEAKER_02: 19:27

Third degree.

SPEAKER_03: 19:27

Third degree black belt. I mean, so remarkable. All right, Mike, how about for you? What was going on work-wise? You

SPEAKER_00: 19:34

know, Joan did a fabulous job with Michael, and we just realized that we had to do something unconventional, that it was just going to be different.

UNKNOWN: 19:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 19:47

What were you doing with Michael the whole time?

SPEAKER_00: 19:49

Because you were doing your thing. It was everything to try to get him out and get him involved. And we would go places and we would... Tried different sports. We ended up skiing because it didn't require a team event, you know, because that was a challenge for Michael to be involved with a team activity. So we found independent ones that worked for him and that worked for his environment and that he felt good about doing so.

SPEAKER_02: 20:18

But Mike would dedicate. If he wasn't at work, he was with Michael. And then when Nathan came along with Michael, with the boys then they would go do things but michael never slept ever slept and so uh saturday mornings early they'd go get breakfast yeah oh go get breakfast

SPEAKER_03: 20:42

where was your spot

SPEAKER_00: 20:43

you know it varied from jrs to waffle house you name it we would go and we would do it and then When Nathan woke up, we would go again and have second practice. It was no problem.

SPEAKER_02: 20:57

Yeah, because that was– but it was always what worked. And, you know, I may have been doing one part of it, but Mike was definitely doing the other part. It's like–

SPEAKER_00: 21:15

But it wasn't a competition.

SPEAKER_02: 21:17

Maybe that's a good way to think about it. Yeah, yeah. To me, you were focusing on making his life so normal. That's what Mike was doing.

SPEAKER_00: 21:27

I think both of us realized that we were just going to have to knuckle down and make it work. Joan and I have a work ethic that's uncharacteristic. Most people would think it's absurd. But the challenge was Michael was no different than that. We had to find a way. To achieve that goal of an independent life, we would have failed him as a parent if we didn't allow him to achieve that.

SPEAKER_03: 21:59

Would most people at this point have just sort of, hey, the doctor told us what he is, that's what he is, and then what? They just sort of like... What would they do? What would they be prescribed to do?

SPEAKER_00: 22:13

But I think the key is that Joan had a vision that we had to go to the next thing. We had to be preparing for the next thing.

SPEAKER_03: 22:21

That

SPEAKER_00: 22:21

in kindergarten, we had to prepare for school. In elementary school, we had to prepare for middle school. And then college, and then home beyond that.

SPEAKER_02: 22:31

And I took my thought process from other things that I would apply to To this situation. So I would look at a lot of stories. I remember reading about a lady who had a daughter who was blind. And she wanted this child to experience things that didn't really... work for a blind child. So she said, I'll be the eyes. The mom said, I'll be the eyes. And it's a disability that we can get around and stuff. And so I would think, okay, we've got a type of disability and part of his was definitely his auditory processing part. So You know, I'd say if he was deaf, you wouldn't be expecting him to hear. So let's figure out how we can compensate for him not being able to process what he's hearing right now as if you would for someone blind, can't see, or whatever. And so it was more trying to put together what you would do to get to the next level. And now a lot of that exists, believe it or not, but didn't. They're working a lot harder. If now Michael was diagnosed, they would look at it differently. However, I just, I'm on the Marcus Center Advisory Board. And I met just the other night, a family that actually had two sons, and their son was diagnosed with a very similar type that Michael was. And the IQ was right there, same thing. But they're telling me what their son is already doing, and it's very hopeful what they're telling me. And I said, no, you just cannot... I said, they can't measure the IQ if certain things aren't working right. You know, that's what we've learned. Because it turns out Michael is very smart.

SPEAKER_01: 25:10

Sure. Yeah. Right. I'll bet.

SPEAKER_02: 25:12

Yeah. But, you know, did anybody realize that? No. Right. And stuff. So there's a lot that's been learned and stuff. Now, though, like on autism, there's so many kids diagnosed with, But to even get diagnosed now, that testing we talked about, there's such a delay now because there's not enough people to do the testing. It's very expensive. The market centers come up with an unbelievable invention that will diagnose literally right after birth almost now, but it's going to take a while to get to the market and stuff. So kids are delayed because testing. Parents can't even get them into testing right now. And so they're stuck because they're not even sure what that child needs. So in a way, we were fortunate in a way.

SPEAKER_03: 26:10

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 26:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 26:12

So let's come back to kindergarten now. He's accepted. You guys are excited. You go home. You're excited. You're fired up. Are you explaining anything to him at that time? Does he... It's hard at kindergarten age, right?

SPEAKER_02: 26:25

Yeah. No, we didn't really sit down and explain anything. And he seemed to accept that he was going to a different school than his cousins. But we never talked about it. There was really no talking about things, believe it or not, because he...

SPEAKER_00: 26:48

And that's probably the most important thing. There wasn't things to talk about. There were things to do. You know, we needed to get him ready and get him ready even at that stage to go to kindergarten. Yeah. There were things we had to get him ready

SPEAKER_02: 27:01

for. Sure. Yeah. But we never, and he never asked. But again, remember now, he's not someone that you're having conversations with. Right. Now, he's talking, but it's not a conversation.

SPEAKER_03: 27:15

Got it. Yeah. Okay. So at that point, were you being advised on anything? how to do these things or were you just sort of trying?

SPEAKER_02: 27:24

Oh no, no, no, no. There was no advice.

SPEAKER_03: 27:26

You were just doing what you felt was inherent, I

SPEAKER_02: 27:31

guess. Yes. Totally. Sure. Totally.

SPEAKER_03: 27:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 27:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 27:35

Day one in kindergarten, how to drop off, go. What was it

SPEAKER_02: 27:39

like? Good. Michael never. Okay. There's things about Michael that I think were easier. Michael's always been very cooperative. Right. Matter of fact, when we talked about behavior, he never had a behavior problem.

SPEAKER_00: 27:56

No,

SPEAKER_02: 27:57

never. And

SPEAKER_00: 27:59

I would say he's very positive.

SPEAKER_02: 28:01

Yes. He's a positive

SPEAKER_00: 28:02

person. For sure.

SPEAKER_02: 28:03

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So no, no issues there. And the way the school, the school was so small, there were only six kids in, in his, and it was, It wasn't even just his class. I think that was like first and second grade together. And then also, I remember we got over very much, very quickly, even being worried about anything because you meet these parents and you just can relate to everybody. And the other kids were, you know, everybody was just trying to get to the next step.

SPEAKER_03: 28:45

Sure. Everybody. Yeah. Okay, his relationship with his brother then. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 28:55

Okay, so Michael is five years old, just turned five, a month before his brother was born. And this is the thing about Michael that it just says everything. We called him from the hospital. He knew I was having a baby. And Mike said to him, he was on speaker, and said, Mom's about to have the baby. And he starts crying. He says, I don't want Mom to have to throw up that baby. So he knew the baby was in my stomach. And he was worried I was going to have to throw him up. And I thought that actually I got one. It was just, he's always been so worried and so kind. He would be one that if he heard you coughing in the middle of the night, he'd come and say, can I get you some cough medicine? So there's things about Michael that, and I'm talking about from the time he died, Yeah, that's what I mean. From

SPEAKER_03: 30:11

right early on.

SPEAKER_02: 30:11

Those are the parts that when somebody tells you he's not capable and he does that, that's what sticks in your mind. Like, no, this isn't right, what we're being told. And so I thought that thought process of how that baby was going to get out of my stomach, because that's what you tell a child.

SPEAKER_03: 30:35

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 30:36

The baby's in my stomach.

SPEAKER_03: 30:37

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02: 30:39

was unbelievable.

SPEAKER_03: 30:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 30:41

That he...

SPEAKER_03: 30:41

He got it.

SPEAKER_02: 30:43

He got it.

SPEAKER_03: 30:44

I mean... Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 30:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 30:46

Incredible. And when... Okay, so when his brother was born, you said five. So Michael's five.

SPEAKER_02: 30:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 30:51

Nathan's born.

SPEAKER_02: 30:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 30:54

Michael's still in kindergarten?

SPEAKER_02: 30:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 30:56

Okay. And then what... Was that school just kindergarten or did it have more grades?

SPEAKER_00: 31:01

No, no, no. What did that all look like? He stayed there and went all the way through to the 12th grade. No, no, no,

SPEAKER_02: 31:06

no. That was church kindergarten. Oh, okay. That was church kindergarten. Okay. It was at a church. And that was when... Well, he actually, when he was born, he was at the first grade. Yeah. It was the church when... Yeah, yeah. So... But he did stay the whole 12 years at the same school. But the school grew beyond what it was when it started. Oh, for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 31:36

For sure. Yeah. Tell us some stories about Milestone. So now I'm going to sort of push everything together from we got to kindergarten. We know where you all were at in life. Nathan's born. Just sort of like over the next 12 years. So let's say like the school years.

UNKNOWN: 31:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 31:55

some stories what pivotal times were there times he came home and you were like whoa this is a different child than I sent to school this morning how did it go and how did it progress and just as much detail as you have

SPEAKER_02: 32:10

he had Michael had the scope of his problems were so much more than we've even talked about he had so many motor problems that showed him in karate but The writing his name, even to this day, if he goes to write his name, it looks like something he would have done in kindergarten. The motor problems were so great. So the thought of him, what it took to write out his name was maybe 20 minutes.

UNKNOWN: 32:50

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03: 32:51

Right from the get-go, from like when they started writing it?

SPEAKER_02: 32:54

Yeah. So you couldn't imagine how are we going to get through this? Because even if it's up here, he couldn't get it on the paper. And he couldn't get it out of his mouth either. And so, you know, the school was real good because... they would set small goals. And so in Michael's mind, we didn't know a lot of this until we went back when he was writing his book. He thought he was always doing great because he always met his goals. Again, he was real positive. He had no idea. No idea. And he said he just focused on what he was doing. He wasn't He wasn't really looking at what everybody else was doing.

SPEAKER_01: 33:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 33:56

But we didn't know that. We didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01: 33:58

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 33:58

Because I used to worry so much that he was comparing himself and all that. But he wasn't. Right. He wasn't. It just shows you. You just don't know.

SPEAKER_03: 34:09

Sure. And then how did the relationship progress with his brother? What did that look like? Yeah. As the years went on?

SPEAKER_00: 34:17

It was good, I think. I think Michael and Nathan have a really good, and till today, even today, have an excellent relationship. And it morphed. Nathan saw Michael as his big brother, and Michael saw Nathan as his little brother. And they were just pals all through the ages as they grew and matured. Who did all the bending?

UNKNOWN: 34:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 34:44

I don't know. Michael. Michael. Michael.

SPEAKER_03: 34:48

All the bending?

SPEAKER_02: 34:49

Like, in other words, if there was a TV program to be watched, who decided?

SPEAKER_01: 34:56

Oh.

SPEAKER_02: 34:57

Nathan. I mean, Nathan would decide. Michael definitely, again, was the one who just said, you know, well, whatever somebody else wants, he did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he was real good about... And he didn't have a jealous bone in his body. No. No. No. In some ways, Michael's personality made things easier, to be honest.

SPEAKER_03: 35:32

As a family, you mean? Uh-huh. For the family?

SPEAKER_02: 35:35

For the family.

SPEAKER_03: 35:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 35:36

Yeah. If he... He's always wanted to do whatever the right thing was.

SPEAKER_00: 35:42

But I think Nathan, just in fairness, Michael can suck the air out of a room. Yes, he can. It's pretty easy. He can take all the attention and all of the fanfare away. And Nathan has been extremely tolerant. Yes. And extremely humble about it. He really deserves a lot more

SPEAKER_02: 36:04

credit than what he gets. There's many things we couldn't do because... of Michael and many things we had to concentrate on for Michael that took away from

SPEAKER_03: 36:15

Nathan.

SPEAKER_02: 36:16

Nathan had it real hard with all that.

SPEAKER_03: 36:18

So, okay, there's two key themes here. So we have third degree black belt, and then we have another theme here. I want to make sure that it didn't get overpassed or misheard in your last story. We have an author theme. that we're talking about as well, right? So an author and a third degree black belt. Let's work through the two of those. Karate started at what year? That was all the way back in kindergarten?

SPEAKER_01: 36:44

Five. Five.

SPEAKER_03: 36:45

Okay, five. And I know he's still active today. Yes. So let's tell some stories. I know we were with you guys summer camp for many years. Yes. Just tell us how that went and his experiences and just what you got out of it as family. And I know you're still there and involved today. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 37:03

Yeah. Well... You go first. What

SPEAKER_00: 37:06

did you do with the test

SPEAKER_02: 37:08

as part of it?

SPEAKER_00: 37:09

Michael's had an illustrious career. But you joined. You know, I sit there one day and was watching Michael and saw him struggling and I just said, good Lord. I said, Michael, come here. You've got to do this. And I was critiquing him like most people do. And he said to me, you know, if you think it's so easy, why don't you get out?

SPEAKER_01: 37:32

So

SPEAKER_00: 37:34

I joined and it was something that we've done throughout the years. Nathan was there for a very long time and did an excellent job. He got his first degree black belt. Oh, great. And, you know, both of them, it was just an enrichment experience. experience. We got so many things we got to experience, so many people that we got to be around and be a part of their lives and get to experience their culture, their view of the world, and got to see foreign lands that we would have never seen without experiencing that. And it's a very loving and kind and caring environment

SPEAKER_03: 38:11

that

SPEAKER_00: 38:12

we feel very fortunate to be a part of.

SPEAKER_02: 38:14

Yeah, and I think a couple things that You just have to give it to Taito and stuff. They did such a good job of helping Michael just get to the next step. And they didn't need to do that. They just did it. And they even, at one point when it got really tough to get over that next hump, Mitsaki Sensei, who now is in charge all these years later, was 14 and came to our house and worked with Michael in the basement.

SPEAKER_03: 39:01

Oh, I never knew that.

SPEAKER_02: 39:03

Yeah, no, they didn't tell anybody for a long time, but what they wanted to do is figure out how to get him to the next thing. And they were just doing that out of total dedication. And We're convinced that the TIDO truly helped strengthen everything. It brought us motor coordination. Once that motor coordination's there, you've got the ability to learn, to do all kinds of things. So there's no way to even... And it was... a place where you had friends, which is very hard with people with autism. And it just was a community. It was just something. The other thing is a family. It was a family activity because all of them were doing it together.

SPEAKER_01: 40:10

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_02: 40:11

And all were at a different level, but it doesn't matter. Everybody does it on their own terms.

SPEAKER_03: 40:16

Sure.

SPEAKER_02: 40:17

Pace and everything.

SPEAKER_03: 40:18

So roughly what year or what belt, whatever you can recall, when Michael said that to you, if you think it's so easy to come out and do it, was he just getting started or where were

SPEAKER_00: 40:29

you all at? I think it was early on in the process when he was like in his adolescent years because– or maybe when he was like 10 or 11. Yeah, I think that's when it was. It was around that time period. Yeah. You know, he's had so many experiences, you know, that culture was really not, doesn't want you to hug or touch or any of that stuff. And Michael, we were in Japan with the group, and we were there, and the grandmaster of the martial arts was there. And Michael just felt like he needed to hug him, and he's the only person in history that's ever hugged this

SPEAKER_02: 41:09

guy before. I mean, there was– people were gasping.

SPEAKER_00: 41:12

Get out. It wasn't the only one. I was gasping. That's great. But he– Michael's had an experience there that just, you know, you– It's interesting. That's all there is to it. But, Jeff, I think we'd be remiss if we didn't get Joan to talk just a little bit about Michael's singing because that has been a big part of his life, too, and allowed him to grow and mature. He would not have gotten into college without an event that occurred many, many, many, many years before that. And, Joan, why don't you tell that

SPEAKER_03: 41:46

story? Oh, this

SPEAKER_02: 41:48

is great. What is interesting is– Even from the time he was little, he could sing. I mean, you know, four years old, he could sing. And he, as a matter of fact, he couldn't understand why I'd always ask him to sing. Because it was something he did better than everybody else. And for me, you know, I'm looking for... I'm looking for reassurance. Everything's all right. And so he couldn't understand why I always wanted him to sing. Well, from Taito, there were some other students that we were new and good friends with. And it turned out that their grandmother, the students were the exact age of Michael and Nathan. And their grandmother... was an opera singer in New York, sang at the New York Met. Juilliard. The whole works. She was something. And it turned out she gave piano lessons, and we knew piano was important. He'd gotten kicked out of every piano lesson we'd tried because, again, no motor coordination, and they just felt like it wouldn't do it. Well, her name was Fran Richards, and she really became another grandmother. I'm from an Italian background, and she was Italian, and she was just, like, part of the family. She didn't like Tito. She saw Michael for the good sides of things. And so she took... Him on for piano and Nathan. And then he actually sings very, Mike sings very good also. And so he'd be singing. And then when Michael got to be about 14, she switched him from piano to singing. And it was classical music. And he could sing. Wow. Yeah, he could sing. Well,

SPEAKER_00: 44:04

she and he had a real rapport. Yeah, they did. Their personalities blended well. Yeah. She was the stern disciplinarian that really had a real soft side to her. Right. But Michael would work her and work her into his realm and get her to be okay. She'd get outside her comfort zone, and Michael would get her back into it. Oh. It just proved a great relationship with her. And as Joan said, he ended up there because everybody else kicked him out. She didn't want anything to do with him.

SPEAKER_02: 44:37

And yet she's probably one of the most accomplished and everything. And she literally became part of the family in so many ways. And so Michael's getting towards the end of his time in high school. And he's going, I want to go to college. And now we're back in panic mode. Because Michael's so funny when he tells the story in his motivational speeches, which he has gotten nothing but rave reviews on his speaking. You would not believe. And we'll tell you a story about

SPEAKER_03: 45:20

that. Okay, pause real quick. Are there links to either the speaking

SPEAKER_02: 45:23

or... Yes. The singing as well? Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 45:26

Okay. We're going to insert them in and make sure that we... Okay,

SPEAKER_02: 45:29

good. Yeah, no, there's some good stories, too. So, like Michael says, SAT, he got the score you get for putting your name on the test. Yeah. And so, back at that time, SAT scores were necessary to get in. Sure. So... He got in for some interviews that were related to auditioning for singing. And University of West Georgia was one. And I went with him for the audition. And I was seated where I could see the dean of the program watching him when he was singing. And I could tell it was going well and stuff. And sure enough, he says, I want Michael. And I said, well, the SAT scores don't work. And he says, I'll look for, I'll ask for an exception. So he goes to get an exception. And they said, we'll give an exception, but he'll flunk out. So he got in on a singing scholarship. That's awesome. And he didn't flunk out.

SPEAKER_01: 46:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 46:48

But, what we went through. Why didn't he flunk out? Okay. Okay. This is the next plan. Let's hear it. Remember when I said, if you're blind, somebody's got to see and all that. So we bought two sets of books and he would, he would be there Monday through Friday, but our jobs were to read every word out loud. And that would, Mike, from the textbooks. Wow. But it was,

SPEAKER_00: 47:22

I mean. Prepare a practice test.

SPEAKER_02: 47:24

Prepare

SPEAKER_00: 47:24

a practice test. Get ready with homework. Do study guides. Do study guides. Get him ready to send him back for that week's event. And see, we'd

SPEAKER_02: 47:34

be having to work while he was over there doing the study guides and all that. But then they would read every word out loud. Mike started reading, I'm talking about every textbook.

SPEAKER_03: 47:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_02: 47:47

Well, I'm telling you, what we saw, Michael then started reading so well. It was unbelievable.

SPEAKER_03: 48:01

Is this for the first time

SPEAKER_02: 48:03

that you can actually say like, oh, wow. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It's like, okay, see, now he's, his dad's, because he did all of that and I'm doing all of the other stuff. Because they're doing the reading like crazy. And I'm talking about, we'd work 12 hours a day without stopping for anything but eating. And again, this is when Nathan was in high school. We were just ignoring him and stuff. But we knew what we needed to do. Right. Okay, Michael. We weren't ignoring him. We were loving him. Yeah, but we were busy. I'm not kidding. We were busy. Okay, Michael never missed one class. Not one class. Matter of fact, it snowed, and he was living off campus in an apartment. He walked everywhere. to the campus. He got there. They'd canceled classes, but he still walked

SPEAKER_01: 49:09

there.

SPEAKER_02: 49:10

But he worked as hard as anybody could work. And he had accommodations based on his disability. And again, that's a move forward. The word accommodations never even existed when he was first diagnosed and everything. So Michael's doing his part. And I'll never forget that first semester because, you know, we're wondering, you know, what's going to happen and everything. And it's like the people, what you see are all these people, not just, you know, that you know of that graduated, you know, from high school that, you know, had gone to regular schools and had done great. They're dropping out of college. And you start realizing it's not as simple as you know, being able to do everything. There's a stick to it and make it work. And again, that's where we saw sort of the tortoise in the hair. It's like Katie that was the cousin.

SPEAKER_03: 50:18

The cousin,

SPEAKER_02: 50:18

yeah. Who graduated top of the class. From high school. Yeah, early admission, early admission into Georgia, University of Georgia. Hard, hard to get into. She dropped out. And she had a lot, she'd lost her dad and stuff. So there were a lot of things going on. But what you see is it's not about just the ability. There's much more to, it really, the story of the tortoise and the hare makes so much sense when you look at an example like Michael. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 50:57

Yeah. Now at this point, I remember in the beginning you mentioned you held off a long, long time until he even knew autism. Did he know it right at college or was it high school?

SPEAKER_02: 51:07

We told him right at the end of high school because he was going to make– his school was small. And anybody that wanted to could– and they always did this– could get up and speak at their graduation. So we thought, now's the time to tell him. And like he said, he goes, you said the word autism, but I didn't really know what it meant. It wasn't until we dug in deeper. And actually, when he was in college, he had a speech class. And again, when he'd go in, he'd have to tell the professors what his diagnosis was and his accommodations so that And people automatically assume, you know, you're not going to be a good speaker. And he was in speech class and the professor tried to get him to not take that class. And he said, no, I'm going to take the class and everything. And he did a whole thing on not just autism, but him, I think it was. And he ended up getting an A in that class. class he i mean yeah because it then that was probably the we always knew because if you ever say to him like um you know say a few words he always seems to be able to come up with the wrong words but um that was that was probably the start of him really um getting in to enjoying the speaking yeah and you know like preparing his slides and everything. And there's never, it's, it's, it's amazing how, how that's, it's an innate infidelity he has with that.

SPEAKER_03: 52:56

Sure.

SPEAKER_02: 52:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 52:57

So I want to go all the way back now to the beginning to four and five years old when you were doctor after doctor, test after test. Now that we sort of put the whole, the whole puzzle together, what in the beginning were doctors saying that he would be like at, 23 years. Were they saying like, Oh, don't even worry about college there. He'll never see college.

SPEAKER_02: 53:20

They didn't say he's, they said he wasn't going to school. I mean, grammar school from day one. And that, that was devastating, you know? And they told us that he needs, yeah, he'd be a group in a group home as an adult.

SPEAKER_03: 53:38

That was their predictions. Yes. How many, how many predictions? I remember

SPEAKER_02: 53:41

everybody,

SPEAKER_03: 53:43

everybody. Five people? Ten people,

SPEAKER_02: 53:45

roughly? At least six or eight, yeah. Incredible. It was very hard, and the intervention was for me to accept that.

SPEAKER_03: 53:54

Right. Tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_02: 53:57

Well, I thought we were getting together. I was called the meeting because these were all people, and these were professionals I was paying for their time.

SPEAKER_03: 54:08

Yeah. Professionals such as?

SPEAKER_02: 54:11

Psychologists. Speech therapists, occupational therapists.

SPEAKER_03: 54:15

Okay, so you get them all in one room.

SPEAKER_02: 54:17

Yes. And they know of each other because back then, again, it was a smaller community. And so they all knew who they were and stuff. And I guess all talking about this crazy mom, I guess. I had no awareness that was going on until I got there. I'm always early, so... I got there early and they were already there. And I had a funny sense when they were all there because I thought, this is weird. So I sit down and I go, you know, I really want us to come up with a strategy to help figure out how we're going to get him into school. And they go, well, we want to talk to you about it. It was it was devastating. It was devastating.

SPEAKER_03: 55:00

So this is right before kindergarten.

SPEAKER_02: 55:03

Yes. And I was pregnant with Nathan.

SPEAKER_03: 55:04

And you got up. You got

SPEAKER_02: 55:05

up. Well, we were in kindergarten because I was pregnant with Nathan. And I'm trying to plan getting out of kindergarten. Like, we're early on. We're like in September, and I had Nathan in October. And I knew to plan for that next year, I needed to start early because I didn't know, like, can we be doing certain things with Michael to get him to the next level and all that. And basically they were saying, no, you just need to get to acceptance that your child does not have ability to do this. It was, it was devastating. It was probably one of the most devastating things I've ever, ever encountered. Okay. Because it was a group of people.

SPEAKER_03: 55:58

Right. Experts telling me. So you leave there. How long did it take for you to just completely, there obviously was up and down emotions. Yeah. Are they right? Are they wrong? Are they right? Are they wrong? When did you guys as a team just completely turn and go, there's that something else inside of

SPEAKER_02: 56:20

us? Pretty immediately. Pretty immediately. Okay. Yeah. Pretty immediately when you get home and you just go, You're watching him and you're seeing those things, like I'm saying, like the child that offers you cough medicine when you're coughing. Right, right. You know, it's funny how, you know, these little things are just the way, I know he couldn't communicate with us, but I didn't feel like he was like, I could tell he was purposeful in what he was trying to do and stuff, right? I agree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 56:57

Okay. Right there, you're looking out in the future. You just heard from experts. Here's what we think is going to happen. How would you categorize? What did you think? Were you saying like, no, no way, he'll be in college? Or how did

SPEAKER_02: 57:12

you see him? I think, you know, and matter of fact, I told somebody this just the other day. In my personality... If I've got a problem, whatever the problem is, the worst part of it is if I'm not doing something. So as long as we were doing something to get Michael to be better tomorrow than today, we weren't looking too far ahead.

SPEAKER_03: 57:46

Special.

SPEAKER_02: 57:47

Yeah. Okay. And pretty much that way, That's sort of my personality I've decided because when something hits, some people freeze. For me, it's like I'm going to get through it if I am doing whatever it is and trying to make it better.

SPEAKER_00: 58:10

Right. Yeah. I think both Joan and I just... Don't accept the fact that there are no alternatives. There are absolutely no alternatives that we can explore. And when we were talking about music and sports and activities, if it didn't work, we abandoned it and went hunting for the next one. Something that would work for him or work for us and that had some positive results. And if it did, we kept going with it.

SPEAKER_03: 58:39

Great. What an inspiring story.

SPEAKER_02: 58:43

We went to, there was a funeral for a family member. And at the funeral, Michael was four. They sang Amazing Grace. And we get home and Michael is singing Amazing Grace. And that was probably the first time it was like, he is singing this song and it sounds so good. And he knows most of the words and he heard it one time. And that was again, that singing thing was like, that's, that's important.

SPEAKER_03: 59:20

Sure.

SPEAKER_02: 59:20

That's important.

SPEAKER_03: 59:21

Sure.

SPEAKER_02: 59:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 59:23

And he's an author. Yeah. We, we, we, right. We got that. Um,

SPEAKER_02: 59:27

yeah. And tell us about

SPEAKER_03: 59:28

that.

SPEAKER_02: 59:29

What, how that came about. Um, Jacksonville State University in Alabama, they do the largest teaching program, I think one of the largest teaching programs I know in Alabama, but maybe in the Southeast. And with the rise in autism, they were having an annual conference, and they asked him to be the keynote speaker. And this was going to be the first time he had really spoken, um, at this. And so, um, it really, any event, right. It was the first time ever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:17

And this is what, what year he's in college

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:20

or he's out of college. Um, I'd say 2015, 16. Okay. And so, um, You know, and we helped him prepare the PowerPoint slides and stuff, and we're both real good about not a lot of words, but Michael loves, you know, to tell stories with pictures anyway and stuff. So he gets up, and he does this and everything, and I'm there, and I'm thinking, wow, you know, he's doing really good, you know, like I was nervous wreck, but he did, you know, I'm feeling really good about it. They were so... wowed by the story and um so many people said to him you need to write put this in a book well if you tell michael something

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:16

it's considered done

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:17

yeah and and so he we're driving back and he goes well he goes how would i put my story in a book So we're talking about it, and we realized one of the things, we had all the testing that had been done. And, you know, you always, when you have any medical things, you keep that information, you know. But then his school, for 12 years, every week at the end of the week, they would document how the week went.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:53

Feedback

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:53

sheets. Yeah, the feedback sheets. And so I said, you know, we'll just get that out and maybe that'll be the start. That's when he realized how bad things were. He met all the goals, but then he started realizing, wait a minute, in fourth grade I was doing first grade

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:19

work. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:21

And It stopped. He literally had to stop for a while because it really made him feel bad. But then I pointed out, I said, Michael, the reason they want your story out is because you got through it. The other people need to get through it. And as soon as he figured out what was really the goal, He literally, it became like he'd work, and then when he was not at work, he wanted to work on the book. And he and I worked on a lot of it together because we didn't know. He didn't see what we saw. And I guess nobody

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:13

does. No, you don't.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:14

Sure.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:15

You don't.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:15

But I never would have thought, like, I thought he'd, would be more understanding of why he was at a different school than his brother and his cousins were. But he said he really just never thought about it that way. And good for him. Good for him. Because that's the one thing. Michael's always had his good self-esteem. And it's probably served him so well in life.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:45

Special.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:46

So tell us, where's Michael today? What is he up to?

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:49

Okay, well... When he got out of college, it's very hard for somebody with autism to get a job, believe it or not. The word still has just the wrong, wrong context. And many people rely on family businesses or whatever. And so one of the companies that I started, my youngest brother took that over fairly, fairly early and he has been with him it's a medical specialized medical billing company and um um michael does a lot of it's a small company um so he does um data processing and a lot of other stuff and um matter of fact that i my brother hates for him to take a day off because He has an important job. He feels it if he takes off. And so he does that. But the motivational speaking has been really unbelievable and it has not been as much autism specific. It's much more the business community. His story just helps anybody who is stuck see nothing's hopeless or and it doesn't so what we find is the business community seems to love the story that he tells and the way he tells us is it's got humor in it it's got and there's so many facts so you can follow it that's the thing with the testing you've got objective data so you can understand what was going on versus, um, um, you know, a subjective type thing. Sure. And, um, so he does that and he does the karate. He, um, works out at a gym doing CrossFit. He, um, he, um, Loves Dungeons and Dragons games and stuff. So he stays busy.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:15

And he's a great artist too, right? Drawing?

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:18

No. Coloring. His brother, Nathan, is the artist. Okay, I remember seeing it on Facebook. He's really a talented

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:25

artist. Yeah, incredible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:28

But you know, I think to compliment what Joan said, people are looking for hope. They're looking for an encouraging outlook that people... had adversity, but then overcame it through perseverance. And I think that's the message of Michael speaking. It just says you too can do this if you just recognize you got to take those small steps and accept the small accomplishments and then move forward.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:54

Right. One story that just happened that he did not belong to this gym. They invited him to speak and opened it to the community. And he got a note back. And for me, being a mom, it was from a mom that brought her son in high school. And she was writing to thank him for the speech. And see, again, it makes me cry because I can relate to this mom. And she said she was so worried about her son and brought him to this talk because she had heard that, you know, I guess, you know, for him, whatever was hard and everything. And she said after the talk, he looked at her and said, Mom, you don't need to worry. I'm going to be okay.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:45

Oh, incredible. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. What

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:50

a story. So we've been tremendously blessed. Sure. Tremendously blessed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:59

Remarkable. Let's end here. Thank you. You guys each take a minute. I want to have you give just a message of encouragement. Pack in as much as you feel necessary to anybody out there, if it's specifically in the testing phase. As I heard from both of you, it could be struggles or hang-ups or hurts or habits or whatever it could be. They're stuck. How would you inspire them? Yeah. coach them?

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:36

I think one of the things on any child, even an adult, perfection or ability to do everything is not at all important. It's just looking at each individual for who they are. Our world is requires diversity. And diversity means that we're not good in everything and we shouldn't be. It's so wrong. And sometimes the way we're structured, even in the way we do school and we grade and everything, we're not seeing the full picture of what somebody can be. And I know even when Michael was young, there was a book released by a PhD person. I remember the name of the book. It was One Mind at a Time. And that book, when I read it, I was like, well, yeah, I know this, I know this. And then I realized others don't see it this way. Others get upset because their child's not good in math or math. Or the teacher does. I mean, it's like we want everyone to be at this high, high level and we reward that. And so sometimes we take away people's self-esteem in trying to say that everyone's got to be able to do certain things. Whereas if you can survive those years and then find what you're good at, And what makes you happy? And Mike and I are both into that people need to find joy in work because you need that to survive. People who think I'm only going to work if I need to is probably not a good long-term strategy because you get to the end and you better be able to take care of yourself. But I think that's probably like it should never be. be the end of the world that somebody's not good at something. It really should not. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:05

You know, I think for me, it's that we saw early on that that story of Michael was not written. It was yet to be determined that there were tons of blank pages that we get to decide how they get filled out. And Michael's done a fabulous job. And I think the takeaway for many people is that Life doesn't give you all the answers up front and it's okay. You just got to stay with it. And I had a dear friend that recently passed away and I was at his funeral and they did not read his SAT score. They didn't talk about his accolades in college. They talked about what a good person he was and his family and his accomplishments as an individual. So I think We need to focus on those types of things. And I think you can't ignore some things, but I think you can't make them up front and always the whole part of that conversation. I think there are other things that good person, the values that they bring. And, you know, Joan and I have been real blessed with a family of both Michael and Nathan and Our daughter-in-law and our grandchildren and our extended family, we've just been extremely blessed throughout our lives. And she's right. We have a work ethic that's not right for everyone, but it's right for us. And, you know, I think people have just got to find what works for them. But Joan's done a really good job of telling Michael and Nathan and anybody that'll listen that you've got to find your own way. fun in places you've got to make yourself happy you've got to look for the little things in life because life will throw you those curveballs and it's okay and know that your faith and your values will see you through and those are the kinds of things you need to be measured

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:06

by and just one more thing we are forever grateful for the people who stepped in and helped and Yeah,

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:15

it wouldn't have been possible just through our efforts. It was a cast of characters that supported

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:25

us. There's no way to even ever explain because you... Or the gratitude that we had for those people. That's

SPEAKER_03: 1:13:37

awesome. Yeah. Remarkable. Well, this was an incredible story. So I do want to say to you both, um, that I'm grateful, uh, to sit here and listen, literally be part of like to relive the story. That's all I, as I'm sitting here in the seat, I just keep thinking I got to go through your life.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:56

Thank you for, thank you so much. It's

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:00

an incredible, incredible story. Um, Just

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:05

special people to go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:06

There's hope. There's hope. Yeah. And that's what I took away from Joan and Michael's experience at Jacksonville State, that the people that talk to her and the people that come up to Michael and I after his speeches are not looking for Michael to solve their problems.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:23

They're looking for somebody to tell them there's hope.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:26

There's

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:26

hope. It's going to be okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:28

Yeah. And it's not. about autism. It's about the person that just feels like their life is just bad today. They need hope. It's for everybody. It's for everybody.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:41

And that's a market that's probably grown vertically like this, the mental health kind of depression, anxiety. What a great story. So thank you both for being here. Thank you. Just as a reminder, we're going to link to Michael's YouTube videos and the stuff that we talked about, seeing him singing, especially. We'll link to his book as well. So thank you so much for taking the time out of both your days to be here. Greatly appreciate it. And folks, thanks for joining us again on another episode of Interesting Humans.