C. Neil Davenport - From Crushed to Creating: How I Established My Film Career

In this conversation, Neil Davenport shares his journey in the film industry, detailing his early experiences with scams and the lessons learned from them. He discusses the current state of the film industry, particularly the differences between Georgia and LA, and the economic factors influencing filmmaking today. Neil also explores the role of AI in the industry and the rise of vertical content, providing valuable advice for aspiring filmmakers.

Takeaways

• Get an entertainment attorney to protect yourself.
• Recognizing red flags is crucial in the industry.
• Scams can happen to anyone, even the inexperienced.
• Learning from failures can fuel future success.
• The film industry is currently facing economic challenges.
• Georgia is becoming a significant player in filmmaking.
• AI is changing the landscape of content creation.
• Vertical content is a new trend in the industry.
• Support systems are vital for aspiring artists.
• Owning up to mistakes is essential for growth.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

All right, folks, welcome back to another episode. His bio to his IMDb will be there. You can learn everything about him, his history and all that stuff. I got to do this one justice today and dive right in. Sure. Let's do it. Deep end. Yes. Into the fire. Every day we're hearing about these scams. And... I hope nobody on here ever gets scammed. I hope you never go through what you're about to hear. And I hope your kids never have to deal with it. But the unfortunate truth is that it's happening every day and it's happening all around us. I hear them and I go, how are people falling for that? Well, we're about to hear the story that got Neil into the industry for starters. And I'll just say this. They're not walking around with signs on them going, I'm the criminal. Tell me this story.

SPEAKER_00: 1:25

You hit a very pivotal point right there. I think if there's a lesson to this story,

SPEAKER_02: 1:34

if

SPEAKER_00: 1:36

there is an aspiring artist wanting to get into this specific industry, the first thing to do, get an entertainment attorney. Just, that's not... First thing. First thing. Okay. First thing. Great. Because you need someone on your team. You need someone there to protect you. So you were how old when this all went down? I graduated with my undergrad in 2016. It was a year after that. So I was around 22, 23, 10 years ago. Wow. And so I... started out as an actor in this industry. I was reared in black box theater. Acting was the only craft that I could provide at the time to get into the industry. And had an agent and I always felt that there was something more I could offer. So did a deep dive uh, found out that I was a writer at heart, have always been a writer at heart. And, uh, I had one screenplay to my name, um, a feature and, uh, I sent it out cold to people. You know, I, I treat networking as a second religion for me. Yeah. And so this script got in the hands of a, uh, producer who walked up and shook my hand and said, hi, I'm so-and-so and I love your script and I want to produce it. I want to make it. And, uh, I was young and stupid. Yeah. I mean, eyes bigger than my stomach. Sure, sure. And of course, I'm not gonna say no. Right. And this person, like you said, acted trustworthy, looked trustworthy. There was nothing about this person that had any signal red flags.

SPEAKER_01: 3:23

They didn't have their shirt on that day that said, I'm about to screw you?

SPEAKER_00: 3:26

Yeah, no. That would have been a lot helpful. I mean, that's the thing, right? That would have been

SPEAKER_01: 3:30

great. Here we are, the table set for like, you're 22. Wow, it's all right here. All I got to do is say yes. Yeah. Then what happens?

SPEAKER_00: 3:37

Yeah. You know, so it... Goes very quickly. You know, any time, unless you're just like touched by the divine and you just have the right people a part of the project, this particular project happened very quickly. Like we started hiring people very quickly and everybody were yes men. Now that I look back on it with hindsight, it's like everybody was like jumping on board because... It was a job, you know? And there were contracts being drafted. There were signatures being put on these contracts. There was money being promised. And the whole time, I'm going... Well, isn't this great? Right. You know, I'm like, how lucky am I? Is it this easy? Is it this? Yeah, exactly. Because you hear nightmare stories about scripts taking 10 years to get off the ground. Right. And I mean, it's like, wow, this is insane. But the thing is, I kept asking the question, where is the money coming from? Right. How are these people getting paid? How am I getting paid? And you're young and you're thinking those questions. Oh, yeah.

UNKNOWN: 4:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 4:49

Yeah, well, because the thing is, I was reared by mom and dad who are, they balance the checkbook together. Like, if my mom controlled the checkbook completely, we would have all the money in the world, but nothing to play with. And if my dad had the control of the checkbook, we would have no money,

SPEAKER_02: 5:06

but

SPEAKER_00: 5:07

have all the toys. So I was reared to be very economically... literate, if you will. So I just, you know, that question kept coming out. Where did the money come from? Where's the money coming from? Who, I don't know how these things work, but someone has to.

SPEAKER_01: 5:28

Something here was turning.

SPEAKER_00: 5:29

Yes, yes. Something didn't feel right. And so I finally reached out to our family's attorney at the time and told him what was going down. And he was like, dude, you're getting scammed. And I'm like, are you kidding me? What kind of attorney was he? Just curious. Yeah. Do you remember? He was a real estate attorney. Yeah. But

SPEAKER_01: 5:55

he was helping you out. Yeah, he was helping me out. So he wasn't like an entertainer. Oh, I paid him. He wasn't an entertainment lawyer.

SPEAKER_00: 6:00

No, no. It was just someone that I trusted. And someone who had an understanding of the law. Because, I mean, at the time, again, I was ignorant. Yeah. I didn't at the time understand that there were different facets of the law that cover different sectors. So I didn't know I needed an entertainment attorney. So I reached out to him. I'm like, what's going on? I don't feel right about this. This is happening way too quick. I don't understand where the money's coming from. There is no money. And yet people are expecting checks from me and from you. Yeah. Because that was the contract. When I look back on the contracts, that was how it was lined out. It was like there was this promise of a production company being developed under my name and everything was falling upon me. And so he told me I'm getting scammed by these sharks. What did you feel? Let's pause.

SPEAKER_01: 6:59

What did you feel right there? Absolute dread. Did any of you go... no, this lady's too, it was a lady, right? Lady producer. Yeah. Was any of you like, no, I think she's right, and I think

SPEAKER_00: 7:10

you're wrong? You know, honestly, my initial reaction, I mean, it was dread, but, because I mean, nobody likes being that vulnerable, being taken advantage of, but at first, I was actually going up to bat for this, because I was like, no, she's not this person, and she can't be, yeah. I mean, so... I mean, so I went, I was the first one in defense for her. Because I did not want to face that hard truth. What'd you do after? So he tells you you're scammed. So, you know, we look at the contracts and he says, get out now. Just don't go away. Just stop. The only communication that you need to have is, is a letter that is written up that says you're fired.

SPEAKER_01: 8:03

But you had signed something. Yeah. Okay, so I want to be really clear with everybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You didn't just start doing, like you put a

SPEAKER_00: 8:11

signature on something. Okay, cool. No worries. Yeah, I put a signature on there that says, I owe you money for doing X. And again, that just like triggered the question. It's like, I don't have any money. But you don't have money, right. And you're signing X. me up to do, I don't, it's so many questions. Yeah. So, um, ultimately, you know, we eventually got the producer gone. I didn't, we, we, we, because that's the thing. What happens is like when you're getting, when you're getting scammed, the person who's scamming you, if you, if they find that you catch them in time, then they'll leave. Really? I mean, it's just there's been certain incidences with other people that I've known who have gotten scammed. And fortunately, because they caught them in time, and they did the appropriate legal steps, then it's like, bye-bye. But the director that we hired on didn't go away. And this person was like, I'll go away. for 15 grand. And I'm like, I don't have 15 grand to just, are you kidding me? I'm just, ah. So that dread turned into frustration and anger. And at the time, because I was an actor in that year, I had only made three grand. And that's all I had to my name. So I negotiated with this person. I whittled the number down from three grand, excuse me, from 15 to three grand. And then, you know, as soon as, as soon as, because I mean, as soon as it was like in the email, yes, I'll do it for three grand. I'll be out for three grand, you know, screenshot that because it's, it's legal. And, and, and okay, here's a three grand. Here's, here's a letter from the attorney saying, that everything is wrapped up in a nice little bow, there's no more communication, bye bye. Where most people who go through that would say, oh, I don't wanna do that again, I'm gonna get out of this field. Run far. Run far, yeah, as fast as you can. Even though I ended up paying this person all that I had, it was still a win for me, and it was gasoline in the engine for me to continue this pursuit of my career. That's incredible. Because, I mean, a therapist can explain it better, but there was something in that failure of mine that I was able to take and learn from and apply to other business opportunities.

SPEAKER_01: 11:13

That's incredible. What a story, man. To then be the fuel that gets you right back in. So it's like you touch a hot stove and you go, like the scar's not even healed. And you're like, I'm going back to touch it again.

SPEAKER_00: 11:32

Yeah. Almost. It's insane. I know.

SPEAKER_01: 11:34

Because it's a terrible, like we're going to get into this. It's a terrible place. Yeah. Right? Infested with sharks?

SPEAKER_00: 11:42

I mean, if you're not... And snakes and everything? I mean... It's an ocean full of potentially very dangerous territory, but on the surface, it's very beautiful and serene, and everybody wants to be a part of it. But until you pull that curtain back, it's like, oh, this is what it is. It's, you know, a lot of... I have... Two days ago, actually, I met up with a buddy of mine, and he's getting out. He's been in the industry for a while as trying to be an actor, and he's gotten some stuff, but he's just tired of it. He's tired of the bureaucracy. He's tired of the game that you have to play. And there's truth to that. It's, you gotta be willing to play. And I'm not saying that everybody in this industry is corrupt and untrustworthy. I have fortunately, because of the incident, I have been able to garner how to evaluate trustworthy people and navigate those waters to where I've been able to work with very, terrific individuals of this industry since. That's awesome. I mean, have I run into fiery, spiky hoops of fire that I've had to jump through in the interim? Sure. It's everywhere. Yeah. But I know how to jump through them now because of that.

SPEAKER_01: 13:11

See, that's incredible wisdom, man, that you're passing on. I love it. All right. There's so much going on in this industry.

UNKNOWN: 13:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 13:21

The first thing I want to talk about, so you have LA, which everybody knows, that's where films are made. Yeah. So you go in, you get your popcorn, your soda, you sit down, you're like, I'm watching a movie. I know for my whole life, that's all I knew. Like, that's cool. Great. Watch another movie. Watch another movie and it'll be there and I'll pay and the movie will be there. Now, since this podcast, I'm interested in everything because I know there's always another side of it. Sure. So you say... Hollywood, LA, now you got Georgia, which to us, to the consumer looked like, hey, things are moving from Hollywood to Georgia, but you talk about this word here, is you say there's a significant segregation between Georgia and LA that we aren't them. So what's going on?

SPEAKER_00: 14:15

So, you know, when Marvel, DC, everybody was coming here because of the tax incentive, you know, it...

SPEAKER_01: 14:22

What year was

SPEAKER_00: 14:23

that,

SPEAKER_01: 14:24

roughly? Like, is that a couple years ago?

SPEAKER_00: 14:26

Oh, I knew, it was like 2002. 2002. Well, Ant-Man was the first film, first Marvel film in, in Trillith. Yeah. And I think that was in 2019. No, earlier than, it was some time ago. So let's say like

SPEAKER_01: 14:43

19,

SPEAKER_00: 14:43

just to flag. I'm probably going to have that date wrong, but, um, you know, when I'm going to use Trillith as an example, when, uh, Trillith was originally rebranded and was, uh, Previously, Pinewood Atlanta. And so there was like this deal made that they were going to bring films here. And at the time, Georgia, I mean, look, Georgia still offers the best, in my opinion, the best tax incentive for union development of entertainment, whether it's features or television. But, you know, right now, everything's moving overseas. Right now, everything is... And there's a lot of factors that go into play with that. And the industry is very much in a dry spell currently. People don't know what's happening. There's not enough information out there to... I hear the word pivot constantly now. You have to be willing... Like a producer I was talking about. Pivot or die. And so... In the last, I'll give it a grace period of 10 years, films were booming here. And so when the money is good, then people go where the money is. Because at the end of the day, you look at a film, it hits you emotionally. It could be an artistic piece, but... But it's a product at the end of the day that needs to be marketed and sold and earn a profit. Because if you're not earning a profit, then guess what? You, as a filmmaker, aren't doing the next day. Yeah. You're not working on films. Yeah. So the thing with it is there was this hype up Georgia, sell Georgia. Georgia's the place to go. Right. Especially with Tyler Perry Studios and Assembly Studios and all these studios happening here, which is wonderful. Yeah. But then after COVID and then after the trifecta strike went down, then the big five, Disney, Universal, Warner Brothers, these major companies that are based in LA, they found that it's becoming too expensive to film and develop movies in the states. And the places that don't have union fees and other additional benefits and tax incentives are overseas. So we're going to go over there. Okay, so basic math. It's basic economics. Basic economics. Say you have a problem with your car and where are you going to go? You're going to go to the dealership that's going to charge you an arm and a leg and then fear monger you into fixing other things? Or are you going to go to your local mechanic who you trust who's not going to you know, charge you an arm and a leg and not gonna fearmonger you. You're gonna go to your local mechanic. It's just, it's money. And so, you know, going back to your comment about segregation, I find that there is this subliminal segregation between the South and the West when it comes to this entertainment industry. You know, I've been hearing a lot of people in Georgia decision makers in Georgia in this field go, we're not LA. We're not Hollywood. We're the Hollywood of the South. We're not like those people. I heard this one individual say, I'm regrettably from LA. I'm like, why are you saying regrettably? Because when you look at the numbers, everything comes from LA. If LA is hurting, then everywhere else that is making decisions will hurt because that's just how the money trickles down. I mean, and look, yes, Georgia and these studios are wanting to make homegrown content and that's wonderful. They should absolutely do that. But at the same time, they should, I think, be willing to support LA in its economic infrastructure in some capacity because, you know, it goes along with the saying, A rising tide lifts all boats. And when the industry comes back to the states, which it will at a certain point, you know, you still want these companies to come back to Georgia because Georgia is going to offer the best tax incentive and the best benefits. But what I think is going to happen, you see trickles of it happening now where certain states are lobbying for higher taxes. tax incentives and higher benefits so that they can attract the film business and so my prediction is that when these companies find that it's economically beneficial for them to come back to the states and bring the business back here and all the jobs and everything Georgia won't be there's going to be a huge competition between states because if these other states garner or get the stamp of approval for higher tax incentives and benefits, Georgia's not going to be the place to be. It

SPEAKER_01: 20:24

won't be a shoo-in. Okay, so I understand the good that comes with it. You got thousands, if not tens of thousands of people moving in. It's great for local restaurants, all that other good stuff. Totally got it. It's the argument of like, The casinos, right? Yeah, they'll bring a fortune to a town, but if you want to destroy a town, bring a casino to it, right? Because with it, and it's, I mean... It's just the way it works. It's the way of the Lord, right? So you have money, you got temptation, you got all this other stuff. What's the sin that comes in? I'll use the word sin, but what's the filth that comes along with it? Or am I making a gross assumption myself and there's not any filth and it's all clean?

SPEAKER_00: 21:04

Well, no, no, no. It's not all clean. You know, it's the sin. That's actually a really good word to describe it. The sin that comes with that is just the the politics, the bureaucracy, the game that people make other people play in order to get ahead. You know, There was this one incident where there was this film that I was working on and nobody really understood where the money was coming from. And I made a joke. It was a joke with the producer. I'm like, yeah, someone dropped a big bag and a white cloud poofed out of it. And he was like, hmm. not far off. I'm like, what? Wait, are you kidding? I don't want to know anymore. I just, uh,

SPEAKER_01: 22:00

but was it like nuts? What was it? They were just burning money. Yeah. Spending like, was it cause how much they were spending or the crazy stuff they were spending on?

SPEAKER_00: 22:08

Well, it was how much, it was how much they were spending on and the quality of the film wasn't great. Um, and it's just, you know, when you, when you look at, um, you know, the reason why particular investors invest, it's sometimes, it's because they genuinely believe in the film. And that's wonderful. They believe in the project. For example, I am producing a short film currently that's all about suicidal prevention for teenagers. And we're talking about I mean, our budget's not as significant as a feature, but it's a good budget. And we're talking to this one person who's potentially willing to give us our full amount because she believes in our mission. Wow. I just got goosebumps. That's incredible. I'm happy to talk about that more, but there are other investors out there who are just insatiably wealthy people who, because they do their taxes quarterly, and they learn that, oh, they have to pay... you know, a couple million dollars in taxes, well, their accountant goes, okay, well, you can donate to this charity, or you can do this 5013C, or you can, you know, under the purview, invest in this LLC, which pays people, and that's a nice little tax write-off for you. So, which isn't... Film credits, right? Film credits, yeah, which isn't bad, but it's just another... That's part of it. So, you know, with me... Venturing into this further further further into this field producing you know I'm learning more and more about where the money is going why the money is going in that particular place at that particular time and just. trying to figure out the win-win-win of the situation. Because, I mean, I'm producing this one feature. It's a faith-based football biopic of Chase Blackburn, titled All In, about him getting cut from the team as a linebacker for the New York Giants in 2012. And I had an investor meeting, and this investor was like, I love this story. you know, this great, but this is not the right time for me to invest. I'm like, what are you talking about? You, you have, you clearly have the money. You're very interested. Why is it not the time for you to, and it was because of certain taxes, tax breaks and whatnot for this guy. Yeah. And it just, it was like incredibly eyeopening. Sure. Um, I was like, Oh, but you see a

SPEAKER_01: 24:55

whole nother side of it.

SPEAKER_00: 24:56

Absolutely. Absolutely. I see another angle. Um, I mean, cause that's what, that's kind of like going, going back to the sin of, of this industry, you know, you just have to be aware that the, you know, on the surface, everything looks very artistic and magical and amazing. And cause I mean, when you watch a film, that's, that's what you get. You, you, you go, Oh, this is incredible. Um, but, but then when you get into the weeds of it and you pull back the curtain bit, uh, you learn, I've learned that this industry is all about risk mitigation. You know, how, how do I as a decision maker, as a business developer, um, uh, uh, put in a certain amount to get more, more out of it at the end of the day? Yeah. How do I mitigate that risk of losing my investment? Sure. Um, And whether it's economic or resources or whatever. But it's just learning that reality of people... The further you get into this, yes, people are in it for like... They want to help the world and they want to put out their artistic voice and whatnot. But really, it's about the money. And if someone's not making money... that artist isn't going to have their voice out

SPEAKER_01: 26:25

there. Are there times where you're asked to alter something that goes against your morals? Absolutely. From an investor?

SPEAKER_00: 26:36

Yeah. There's no such thing as free money. Yeah. So they're giving you

SPEAKER_01: 26:41

money, but it's... Yes. Tell me about something that they want to change. Yeah. A line, a sentence, a date. Do they want to flat out lie? The whole, I mean,

SPEAKER_00: 26:49

it could, it sometimes is an entire script. I mean, the, there's, there's one project that I was, I was producing. Well, okay. There's, I'll use this other example. There's this one project that I, yeah, I was producing and a feature and, and the i read the script it's it's an okay script but as a writer storyteller i was like i was talking to that producer i was like you need to really alter x y and z and x y and z what it wasn't a major rewrite but it was somewhat of a significant rewrite yeah and the only reason why he didn't want to apply these notes uh was because he didn't have any money and he couldn't pay his writers to do the rewrite. And I explained the reason... Look, you want to make this movie. You're aiming for this very niche audience. You're aiming for this very niche brand of a production company to take on this project, to develop it. It has to hit these bullet points. It has to hit these tropes. And right now, the script is not hitting these notes. I'm not giving notes on this script because... I think my voice as a storyteller is profound or whatever. I'm giving notes on the script because in a marketing point of view, it's not telling the story that it needs to in order to garner a profit at the end of the day. And long story short, they didn't apply the notes. And you know what? They still haven't gotten the money. no way because every every uh person that this script goes in front of they always say the same thing it's missing x y and z

SPEAKER_01: 28:51

yeah have you ever flat out seen anybody try to like hey here's my here's your script it looks good but i want you to put some political crap in there, whether it's like, this isn't a political conversation. Sure. Sure. Like they want to force some political agenda in there. And you're like, this is, this is so blatant. It's sickening. I can actually throw up.

SPEAKER_00: 29:15

Yeah. Anything like that? Yeah. There's, it happens more often than, than you would like to think. I don't even

SPEAKER_01: 29:21

know if

SPEAKER_00: 29:21

I want to know. I mean, I mean, well, I think, I mean, do we want to know this answer? I think, I think Disney is the best example for this. you know back when I mean look we're in post woke movement you know it's it's done and you look at the model of Disney during that time and the films that they developed during that time they tanked and they because they focused on that niche audience instead of instead of the family unit audience in which classic Disney was hinged upon I mean Iger came out and said well broke Disney and right after that point, I forget which Super Bowl it was, the number, but there was a Super Bowl commercial about Disney+, because all these families were saying, we don't like what Disney's doing, we don't like their direction, they're catering to this woke ideology, and we're unsubscribing. Well, Disney put out a commercial that where it was just quotes, black text quotes over a white backdrop that had like from Toy Story and Little Mermaid and Winnie the Pooh, all these famous quotes from these classic Disney films because Disney Plus was advertising the fact that they were putting all of these films that were successful, films that people, the family unit loved, back on Disney Plus so that they don't go away, so that they don't lose subscribers, and so they don't lose money. They pivoted. And so I think that was like, that's the best example I can give for trying to make something, trying to make something that could be great something that it's not. Trying to play that agenda, if you will.

SPEAKER_01: 31:21

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the easiest way to not have any kind of dispute over the content is to speak with your wallet and just hit unsubscribe. What? That's what we did. Yeah. I can't take it anymore. One day we're this. One day we're that. One day Disney's doing this. One day they're taking... Now we're going to take the content down. They'll fight, then they'll back off. Then they'll fight, then they'll back off. And it's like, okay, good. We'll find another place. So we haven't had it in a...

SPEAKER_00: 31:46

Yeah. And I, and, and I think, you know, you're, you see trickles of this evidence where, where the audience are seeking authentic, uh, stories, you know, it's, um, they're, they're, yes, there's always going to be, uh, well-developed commercial franchise entities. And, you know, those, those are needed and, you know, escapism is fantastic. Um, You know, Marvel is trying to get back on the high end with that, with the coming Fantastic Four and Doctor Doom movies, which are great, you know? You should absolutely do that. But we, you know, over the last decade, we have spent so much time in... in my opinion, unauthentic work. Work that is clearly agenda-driven and we just want your money and there's no heart in the story. Whereas now you look at the recent films that have come out and they genuinely speak to people. I mean, it's amazing. Hollywood is paying attention. These companies that are putting out commercial material are paying attention to their audience, finally, and giving them what they want. And it's wonderful.

SPEAKER_01: 33:10

It's awesome. That's like the other side of it. All right. Tell me a theme or a movie or something that Hollywood just absolutely... And when I say Hollywood, now I've got to be clear. Hollywood meaning... Hollywood's everything. Sure. Okay. Yeah, yeah. It's not just like... Hollywood, California. Yeah, yeah. Hollywood, Georgia, wherever it's at, international. The film industry. The film industry. The creative economy. Yeah, there you go. What's a theme they just will not touch or they stay away from at all costs? Oh,

SPEAKER_00: 33:44

man. I'm going to refill our coffee. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The theme I think they are afraid to touch is currently... I think there's this growing trend of not being willing to acknowledge they don't know what's going on. They want to seem like they have this sense of stability, but realistically they know that they're hanging on by the skin of their teeth. So it's just things such as that, not being willing to... talk about where they are financially, where they are in a business orientation, where things are moving, because they just don't know. They're not willing to say, they don't know, we don't know.

SPEAKER_01: 34:47

I'm

SPEAKER_00: 34:49

sorry. So that's one theme. The other theme that I find that... people or the film industry aren't willing to talk about is how it's not, again, in my opinion, financially viable to make anything right now. There's this huge selling point where it's like, I keep hearing, oh, this is the age of the independent artist. Well, thing is, we didn't go anywhere. We've always been here. The thing is, when you break down the finances and the cost of doing business, of making a feature film, it doesn't make sense to do anything currently. For example, and I'm just going to give very generalistic numbers, because there are always... exceptions to the rule. But, you know, let's say there's this independent filmmaker who wants to make a feature. Okay, there's that perceived unwritten rule that it needs to make money. Because again, if you're, I mean, look, you look at a prestigious artistic director such as Nicholas Winning Refn, who is known for his surreal type of movies. He's quoted to say that he knows he has to make money with every film he makes because if he doesn't, he's not going to be able to make another one. So even artists at some point understand money is pivotal, or excuse me, money is vital. So if an independent filmmaker is wanting to make a feature with the context of making money, making a profit at the end of the day, you could go non-union, right? You know, you can make a feature that is well written, well developed, that doesn't have an A-list or B-list director attached or cast. And at the best case scenario, you win, you know, best feature at Cannes or whatever, South by Southwest, a high-tiered film festival. At that point, it's probably not going to be sold, right? You know, a sales agent isn't going to pick it up and offer you money for your IP because you're a nobody and you don't have any names associated. So you can't really do anything with it. It's just a wonderful laurel and bragging rights at the end of the day. It could offer you a job. It could get you hired on a feature down the road. Yeah. your film, that product itself, probably won't get picked up, probably won't get bought. Then you're an independent producer. On the other side of things, you're an independent filmmaker. You make a feature. Okay, let's go union. You attach, you know, union DGA affiliated director, you attach SAG affiliated actors, you use IATSE, you use these unions, which are vital in the creation of a union feature. So if you go over the threshold, I think it's$2 million currently, if you go over the threshold of$2 million, then when you have the film in the can, ready to be edited, ready to be put together, these unions will come out and say, okay, you went over the threshold and so you owe us some extra fees because that was one of the negotiations of the trifecta strike. But then you've capped out on your investors. They're

SPEAKER_01: 38:44

not$50 fees, I'm sure, right? No. Or millions of dollars,

SPEAKER_00: 38:47

I'm sure it points. It's nuts. So it's just, you know, it's like say your feature costs$3 million and you've capped out on your investors, right? You don't know where else to get money. I mean, you can get money through loans and banks and whatnot, but you still have to pay that back. So you're left there having to pay these extra fees with a film in the can that you're not able to put together to go sell or distribute.

SPEAKER_01: 39:20

That's

SPEAKER_00: 39:20

frightening. It's not the best time to make... That's the thing I don't feel as though a lot of people are... are willing to say. And again, it's just my opinion based off of research and experience that I've had. Because it's so expensive to make projects in the States right now. So

SPEAKER_01: 39:42

when you say it's going overseas, I get that fundamentally. A lot of things are going overseas. A lot of things are bringing back here. I get the general economics of it, the general math. But what does that actually mean? look like. Are we taking actors from here and flying them over there and then they're living there for months? Yes. We're building sets over there?

SPEAKER_00: 40:04

Well, they have studios out there. What

SPEAKER_01: 40:06

country? Let's pick a

SPEAKER_00: 40:07

country. London, for example. So you're

SPEAKER_01: 40:11

doing a movie in London and walk me through what happens.

SPEAKER_00: 40:14

From my understanding, Marvel moved to London. Okay, another... more personal example, is I have a buddy who is trying to produce his Hallmark film. And they're looking at shooting, I think it's Vancouver or Toronto. It's in Canada. But it is cheaper for him to fly his A-list cast in above-the-line films crew such as the director the writer well he already has a script but fly the decision makers of the film in the A-list cast to this other country and utilize their resources and then make the movie and then ship the movie over here to make a profit. Now, I mean... That

SPEAKER_01: 41:18

makes sense. I can understand

SPEAKER_00: 41:19

that part. But the reason they're doing it is because the tax incentives with these other countries are... good and they don't have the pressure of using unions like we do

SPEAKER_01: 41:31

so there's no you so i'm guessing there's no union and where marvel moved

SPEAKER_00: 41:37

you know i i don't know okay well you know fact check that yeah i'll note that i don't know but i just know it's it's because of all those other factors it's more cost efficient for them to fly over there which is absurd

SPEAKER_01: 41:51

which is that in a in and of itself Totally nuts. Got it. All right. Then how in this movement is AI playing into all

SPEAKER_00: 42:02

this stuff? It is on a fast track, dude. I love individuals such as Michael Bay, who I believe is quoted to say that he wants to use AI in certain elements that doesn't get rid of employees or mitigate jobs interesting so you know there are there are big-time creatives out there who are embracing this technology, which I think is fantastic. And then there's other people out there that just think it's the stay away, the plague that's going to kill us all.

SPEAKER_01: 42:42

How's somebody using it?

SPEAKER_00: 42:44

What's an example? So I use it. I'll just preface it to say that I don't have it write my material. But the way I use AI is when I am in a creative funk, I use it as a brainstorming session. I'll throw in my script and type into the prompt, this is where I'm at, this is where I need to go in the story, these are the beats that I need to hit, give me 10 creative suggestions that could help me outline this certain chunk of the narrative that I'm just having a block. a brain fart on, you know, and I'll type it in and it'll read all the stuff and it'll go. And the thing is, it will give me wonderful suggestions and not so good suggestions. But the thing is, those suggestions, I may not use any of the suggestions, but when I read the suggestion, it'll spark an idea, right? And then I'll go, oh, that's what it is. And then I'll start writing. And so I use it for that purpose. I also use it for research. I save so much time. uh, with research now, 80, I always say that 80%, whenever I'm on a project, 80% of the development of the script is research. And 20% of it is application because even if it's a, uh, a fiction story, you still want to maintain that sense of authenticity. And, uh, because like, there are people like my dad who come from a militaristic military background and you go, his stripes are on backwards. I've checked out, you know? And, uh, That's a great point. I had

SPEAKER_01: 44:37

that happen once. Flag was on backwards

SPEAKER_00: 44:39

on the opposite side. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, it's every time. Great point. Great point. So just, you know, my research has become so much more efficient as well. Like, for example, I got invited to pitch for Hallmark. You know, I got invited to develop six feature ideas for them. And the thing is, like, Am I aware of Hallmark? Yes. Do I spend time with Hallmark in my free time? No. I appreciate what they develop and they develop wonderful things. But prior to me developing these six ideas for them, I needed to understand their brand. So I scoured their website. I read everything I could about homework. I went to AI and did a deep dive into what their output was and what their output wasn't. Because they have strict stipulations about what they don't develop. Because the thing is, I'm not going to... I need to develop six producible ideas where I'm not... wasting my time, their time, or embarrassing the person who got me in the room.

SPEAKER_01: 45:52

Yeah. And they're how long, like, are they just a couple sentences for each one? Or are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00: 45:57

Page, yeah, like, so a treatment, which is about like a one to two page summary of an entire. And six of those. Yeah. You have to go

SPEAKER_01: 46:03

in with six. Are they completely different?

SPEAKER_00: 46:06

Yeah, they have to be. Like completely separate. So they wanted six Christmas genre and six rom-com genre. And so I had to develop three different stories that, pertain to Christmas, and three different rom-coms that were completely different. And what's rom-com? Romantic comedy.

SPEAKER_01: 46:26

Romantic comedy,

SPEAKER_00: 46:27

okay. Interesting, rom-com. Yeah, and so yeah, they were interested in two of the six. That's awesome. And I got a phone call to say that they passed on the... the golf rom-com that I developed, which is okay. So now it's just down to one. That's great, though. I'm praying that that one comes to fruition because it's a great story. But going back to the whole AI conversation, I would not have been able to develop those ideas if I didn't have the accessibility of what AI was able to generate for me. Um, I think, you know, I think at the end of the day, you're going to see a two branch system where one branch is going to be hyper commercialism, you know, franchise heavy IP stuff that you see in the commercial cinema that is going to, you know, be a lack of heart, but very entertaining and abuse AI. Um, And then the other branch is going to be hyper-independent, where you're going to see very low-budget yet heartfelt narratives on the screen that avoid AI at all costs. I think there's going to be a little disclosure card on there that says AI was not used in the production of this film. Well, that's what's happening on

SPEAKER_01: 48:02

social media. You have to disclose when you're using it.

SPEAKER_00: 48:04

Really? Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01: 48:06

Yeah. Some of the posts you have to put in there. And I put one up that had content in this blew me away. I use chat GPT to generate a description. I posted it and got an alert back that it was chat GPT driven. Wow. So you have to enable, and I'm not a social media, uh, not a, I wouldn't even use the word expert. I'm the farthest from an expert. I know how to like put up a post. So I want to be very clear on that. But I know that there's like you prompt, I don't know, like probably figured out. But when you're making a post, there's a button that says something to the tune of this post uses generated

SPEAKER_00: 48:43

and generated content. You have to disclose it. That's crazy. I mean, it's a tool. Yeah. It's a tool. We've got to

SPEAKER_01: 48:50

separate reality, though. I say this on the show. When I just got up to fill our coffee, I leave that in.

SPEAKER_00: 48:58

I

SPEAKER_01: 48:59

don't pull it out because I'm the person on the other side. I want real and raw. And if you got to sit and rehearse something 10 times to get it, I'm saying in our world, not in the movie world, in the podcast world, I want absolute authentic. And if your phone goes off like yours did, it stays in. I don't edit it out because it shows that it's just real. And that's me, I have control of my podcast and my content,

SPEAKER_00: 49:26

and I like that kind of content. I wanna know that you're you. I think that's a very, as an amazing point you bring up, I was actually in a conversation with a producer recently where we were talking about what the effects of AI, and what I mentioned to him was that there's going, I think there's gonna be a shift in embracing the imperfect sense of of being human, you know, we're going to start celebrating the scars and the mistakes and the failures and, and, and going, you know, uh, you don't have to be beautiful to be loved kind of thing, you know, because we're, like you said, we want authenticity. So I think, I think we're going to start embracing that more and more embracing the flaw. But the problem with embracing the flaw is that you don't ever fix the flaw and, and, and don't become a better person, but that's just my opinion. Um, so, you know, it's, um, it's just one of the AI is just this, this super wonderful yet scary tool that is still in its infancy. And, uh, I mean, look, if it's either you get on the boat or it's going to leave you behind. Yeah. Like there was this one story about Shrek, for example, you know, the people who were developing Shrek, which was one of the, first three-dimensional uses of animation. Prior to this, people who worked in animation were all 2D, and they were super against 3D animation. Like, no, 2D is going to be the thing. It's not going to change. Well, you know, after Shrek...

SPEAKER_01: 51:08

The gates

SPEAKER_00: 51:09

open. Those people no longer had a job that did not embrace the new technology. And so... It has its proper applications. And I mean, my grandfather, who is a Johns Hopkins alumni and medicine guru, he loves AI. Because he broke it down for me. If you're going about trying to fix or cure an illness, then the only way to do that through medicine is through trial and error. And if someone spent every waking moment of their life and never went to sleep trying to find the solution, they could spend their lifetime and still not find the cure. Whereas AI goes, here it is. Here it is. This genetic code is, yeah. Yeah, it's incredible.

SPEAKER_01: 51:58

And that's great. And I agree with the right application. The right application when the goal of... us being on film is for people to know and feel you and like we buy at the end of the day we buy from people we like yes people buy the trust they like so it's hard to get the true person when there's 100 scripting 100 polish everything's perfectly edited who really are you yeah that's where my struggle is yes absolutely we use ai in incredible ways here like the three to one that i was telling you about before so we do everything's done on one camera and i people go, how are you doing a three camera look alike on one camera? Sure. You know? So anyway, that's a, that's a separate episode that we can have. Oh yeah. I want to hit a, I want to hit something you told me about before. So you talked about these one to two mini one to two minute mini film. Oh yeah. These verticals. Yeah. What's up? What's this world all about?

SPEAKER_00: 52:54

My pivoting man. So this is pivoting. Dang. Pivot or die. Pivot or die. The thing that is paying, in my experience, as of right now, the only two things that are paying creative people are corporate commercials for like Delta and Home Depot and all that. And like brand stuff and verticals. Like, I know so many actors here that are making money with verticals. What is it? Yeah, verticals are, another name for it is microdrama. Microdrama? Yes. And so a little bit of history is that these, though they are becoming the hottest thing on the market for the states presently, they're nothing new. They were developed in China in 2020. And some incredibly wealthy people out there found a way to put in a significant but super, super low amount of money to produce this content and get high returns from it. And so... What a vertical is, it is a serialized series. It's like a television series. Okay. That is filmed from a 16 by 9 ratio like your phone. It's social content. It's social content. I describe it as soap opera for social media. Oh, that's awesome. It's like the guiding light on your phone. or Dallas on your phone. And each season is about 60 episodes, and each episode is about a minute and a half to two minutes in duration.

SPEAKER_01: 54:57

What's one? What's a name that comes to mind? Where can I go find this?

SPEAKER_00: 55:01

Oh, so there's a few companies. The two that come to mind are Drama Box and Real Shorts. And they are... They are production companies that push out this content. And they're a brand, man. They know their audience. They know the exact content to produce that garners attention and establish addiction.

SPEAKER_01: 55:24

Establish addiction.

SPEAKER_00: 55:26

Frightening. Because what happens here is, you know, I'm going to... The next person who comes to me and says, oh, you know, developing a vertical is simple and not rocket science. I'm just going to... punch him square in the nose because it is rocket science. There are as many rules to developing a vertical, writing a vertical, as there is with developing a feature or an episode. For example, one rule in which verticals follow, because, again, it's a time duration between a minute and a half to two minutes per episode, you have to hit... the 3-7-21 rule, which means in every single episode, by second three, you have to show a visual hook. By second seven, you have to establish a clear thematic that is presented throughout the entire narrative. And by second 21, you have to establish a... unit of emotional engagement to a point where it establishes addiction. Because what happens is you're given the first 10 episodes for free. And then because you're addicted and you want to know what's happening, you have to buy the remaining episodes. You have to buy the remaining 50 episodes or so. And And again, companies are making so much money from this. It's insane. Is

SPEAKER_01: 57:02

there a series you could point us to that you know about or like? I don't know that I've seen this. Or maybe I'm seeing it and I don't even know that I'm seeing

SPEAKER_00: 57:09

it. Well, a lot of them are on these platforms, on these apps. But then when a series is done on a real short app, then they send it to TikTok or they send it to... youtube shorts or or something so

SPEAKER_01: 57:29

so those are the apps drama box and real shorts yes apps yes so that's nothing different than having paramount plus

SPEAKER_00: 57:34

correct yeah it's just another streaming service but on your phone

SPEAKER_01: 57:38

one to two minutes yep holy cow i've been living in a cave

SPEAKER_00: 57:41

yeah well it's okay it's all right they

SPEAKER_01: 57:43

got to be please tell me they're fairly new there

SPEAKER_00: 57:45

they yes these are but but again they're in the in the context of of how they were built, they're nothing new. Um, but they're new, they're new to the States, which is why they're blowing up.

SPEAKER_01: 57:56

That's why they're blowing up.

SPEAKER_00: 57:57

And I mean,

SPEAKER_01: 57:59

it's, it's insane. If somebody is at home right now and they're like, this is my hope. They're like, this kid's cool. I want to work with them. Cause that's how we buy. No matter if we want to agree with that or not. We, we buy like that. We get to a certain point where we establish these two things. Right. Um, Character and competence, and it takes a long time for one of them and a short time for the other. You identify one, and then as soon as the person drops the ball on the other, you're out. So that's like the psychology of what's happening. So character, competence. Your competence is in your IMDB, but your character bleeds through the camera. And at some point, somebody's either going to go, not my guy, or I only want to work with this guy. So if somebody wants to work with you, what can they just, do they just call you through your IMDB?

SPEAKER_00: 58:51

Well, they can. Yeah. Certainly. You know, the IMDB, I'm uh, on LinkedIn, which is another great way to connect me. Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 59:03

Very important. And we'll make sure we note that it's seed period. Next word, Neil. No, it's very, very critical to get that right. So see Neil Davenport. Okay. So your IMDB, um, do you, do you have any regret that last question? Yeah. Yeah. Last question. Is there anything you regret, any content you put out, you were forced into some kind of ethical dilemma, you have a film out there and you're like, I wish my name was just not even on that dang thing. Don't give us the name of the film.

SPEAKER_00: 59:34

Yeah, yeah. You know, fortunately, that has not been, I don't have that because I, what's the best way to put this? I've dodged the bullet on projects like that.

SPEAKER_01: 59:50

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_00: 59:51

And to make it full circle, predominantly due to getting scammed. You know, I've learned how to read the red flags and develop an exit plan. And when things just start getting hairy and the details of certain people start coming out, it's like, okay. Yeah. I'm out.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:17

This goes back to when you were 22. Yes. So you're way ahead of your time,

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:21

which is cool. I hope I am. That's a compliment. I

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:24

mean, that's a compliment. Like what a blessing that you got crushed when you were 22 and all that happened. And my hope is that comes loud and clear to everybody out there because you've got sons and daughters who are out there going, I'm getting in the film industry and that's great. Or I'm getting into whatever it is, music. This is all the same. It's all creative world. Get a lawyer quickly.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:43

Yes. Because there's a trust, a trustworthy lawyer i mean i mean at that because they again they see a young person with stars in their eyes and they go i can take advantage of this person and the thing is that person doesn't doesn't know i mean unfortunately this industry is just a trial by fire like oh a quick story yeah i was on set and um i'll i'll say his name he's a good friend of mine um he's actually producing feature that I wrote but I was hired by Mark Crump a Georgia producer to work as an office PA on one of his sets and and I it was toward the end of the production of this particular set of this project and I messed up in a big way I made a big mistake like it was it was As soon as I say that, it's like, Ooh, what's the mistake? But, um, I, I, I can't say, but I just know it was, it was something that I, it's fireable. And my heart was in the, it was, my heart was in the right place when I did this thing. I didn't know it was the wrong thing to do. Um, but as soon as I did it, I, I, I was like, it hit me. I was like, Oh, I just messed up big time. And, um, It quickly, you know, Mark is a line producer on this project, and it quickly got back to him. And first thing I did when I got to the office was I know he's busy, but I went in, I shut the door, and I just straight up asked him, I was like, am I fired? I made this mistake. Am I going to be let go? And he says... He just looked at me. He was very blunt, very straightforward. He was like, you realize you made the mistake? Yes. Do you realize why it was a mistake? Yes. Will you ever do it again? Hell no. All right, get back to work.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:52

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:53

And after the film wrapped and we had some more time, he came up to me and he says, the reason why I didn't fire you, even though I should have, was because you owned up to it. You didn't blame it on someone else like always. Everybody else does. You didn't have an excuse. You came to me and admitted fault and you went about fixing it right after. I am willing to work with that person. Even if your skillset doesn't match the job description, I want to work with those types of people because I can trust them and they'll do the job I need them to do. So, you know, Own up to your shit. Sorry, I don't know if I can cuss on this. It's very much that. You have to make the mistakes. You have to be willing to own up to the mistakes and say, yeah, I messed up and I'm still learning. For example, I met Dan Cathy the other day at an event. And he said, you know, if he were wearing his Chick-fil-A name tag, it would say Dan Cathy, CEO, in training. I mean, the dude has had his company for like, I don't know, 50 years or so. He was born into it. And it says in training. I was like, what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:16

And

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:18

he goes, I'm still learning, man. There's something new for me to apply to make my business better. That's so awesome. I'm like... That's beautiful. I'm not surprised. I'm a student at heart. I love it. And I'm like, yeah, okay, I'm in the right place. It's just I'm affiliated with the right people because, again, going back to your point being authentic, not bullshitting your way through. It's not always all good.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:45

You can't possibly always be all good. You just can't possibly be

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:48

all good. But you can be honest.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:50

Man, that's a great lesson to people out there. And you were in– that wasn't just like mom going, who spilled the milk? I did. This is– you're in a high-stakes environment going– I made the mistake.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:06

Man,

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:06

thanks for sharing that. And if you get fired, you get fired. You move on. And

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:09

you'll sleep great at night. Yeah. Rather than having to rustle. Very much so. And I hope they don't find out. Man, this has been incredible. I learned so much. I can only imagine somebody out there who's trying to get in or break into this business or they're in it struggling and they can't move forward. So I hope people reach out to you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:28

Can I share two pieces of advice that I found was very beneficial to me? Yes. I would say I hate giving sexy advice because it's not actionable. Yeah. First piece of advice is get out of debt. You're pursuing this thing. Get out of debt because debt is a great dream crusher because this business is expensive. Excuse me. This chasing your dream is expensive. Yeah. Number two is make sure that. whoever you lean on for support, like economic or spiritual or moral support, emotional support, make sure your support team supports you. Because being an artist is already a career of doubt, and you don't need to question whether you're worthy to pursue this. And knowing, like I told you the story before, but I called my dad early on in my career, I called my dad, And I hit a low point career-wise and spiritually. And I lean on my dad, my mom too, for a lot. And I said, are you disappointed in me? You know, this is not the career that you wanted me to go into, but are you... I'm not hitting the points that I'm wanting to hit. Are you disappointed in me? And he said, Neil, the moment I'm disappointed in you is the moment I hear you say you give up. So... Make sure your support team supports you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:51

That's awesome. What a way to end. That's great. I mean, what a way to go into the world every day. Like, literally, what a way to wake up and know that. Like, just keep going. I bet you're hearing that message all the time from Dad. Whether you know it or you don't, it's in there. That's cool. Thanks for coming up here. Thanks for reaching out to me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:12

Do it. Of course. I mean, I'm so glad you did. I love your content. Yeah. You know, I, I found your content and, and I was like, this guy is, I like this guy. He, he puts out fantastic stuff and it's like, it's, it's an honor to be on your

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:24

show. So thank you. And you're going to be, this episode is a perfect compliment to it. And I'm so glad we went behind the scenes because this content here is so good. Thanks, man. I appreciate you very much. Pleasure. Yeah.