Ep. 71: Space Shuttle Challenger Disaster - My Dad Was the Pilot [Alison Balch]

On January 28, 1986, the world watched in horror as the Space Shuttle Challenger exploded just 73 seconds after liftoff. But for Alison Balch, this wasn’t just a historic moment—it was the day she lost her father, astronaut Michael J. Smith. 

In this unforgettable episode of Interesting Humans, Alison shares what it was like standing near the launch pad as a 14-year-old girl watching her dad head into space… and then witnessing the unthinkable happen in real time. She opens up about grief, anger, forgiveness, faith, and the decades-long healing journey that followed one of the most public tragedies in American history.

But this conversation goes far beyond the Challenger disaster. It’s about identity, suffering, resilience, family, purpose, and what happens when tragedy collides with hope. Alison’s story is heartbreaking, inspiring, and deeply human.

Key Takeaways

•  What it was like to watch the Challenger launch from just over a mile away 
•  The exact moment Alison realized something had gone terribly wrong 
•  The untold details about what happened inside the shuttle after the explosion 
•  How NASA engineers warned against launching Challenger 
•  The emotional weight of grieving in front of the entire world 
•  Why bitterness and anger nearly defined Alison’s life 
•  How faith transformed her understanding of suffering and forgiveness 
•  What President Ronald Reagan was like behind the scenes with the families 
•  The powerful story of reconnecting with a Challenger engineer decades later 
•  Why Alison now uses her story to help others navigate pain, grief, and healing 

This is one of the most emotional and impactful conversations ever featured on Interesting Humans.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:22

On January 28th, 1986, the world stopped. Space Shuttle Challenger exploded in midair. Just 73 seconds after liftoff. The Challenger exploded in front of literally millions of people tuned in that that morning with very high hopes. And most of us remember exactly where we were and exactly what we were doing. But today you're going to hear from somebody who remembers it a little differently because her dad was on that shuttle. And this isn't just a story about tragedy. It's a story about what happens after the world moves on. But your own life never does. Thank you so much. And in the podcast world, um one of the things that hosts talk about is is never use these, never use the word and the phrase thank you because it's wasted time with your listeners. And I just don't buy it and I don't believe it. Because I've sitting here I've got a tremendous amount of gratitude.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Okay, so you're very welcome.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

Thank you for taking the time to come and share this story. That's one of not many on the planet. So do do appreciate that. There was a moment that everything changed for you. Where were you standing at the exact moment?

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Sure. If a person has seen a picture of uh down at the Kennedy Space Center, there's the vehicle assembly building, which is a large building that houses the shuttle or something that's launching. Um there's an American flag on that, and next to that is an office building that uh at that time had mission control for the Kennedy Space Center, and um we waited in that office until 10 minutes before launch and went were taken to the rooftop. So we were on the rooftop of the building, maybe maybe a mile and a half just under from the launch pad. Okay, had a clear view.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

Clear view. I mean, so you come out, do you feel excitement?

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Yes. Um it that's a that's a multi-layered question because this was my dad's job, but the excitement I remember feeling um was a buildup to okay, we move here in 1980, dad's an astronaut, and then here six years later, five and a half years later, is his time. And it's he's about to be launched into space, something he had talked with me about. Um and uh I remember my heart beating because of the way my father raised me, it wasn't necessarily out of a fear for what I was about to watch, but but a a a nervous anticipation of this huge event that was about to happen. I mean, the space shuttle. Huge how many people watched their dad on a rocket go into space? So it was a it was a a normal nervousness, um, but excitement.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

Yeah, right. It was they walk out of the building, they walk on, you're still let's go, we're fired up, it goes on time. Everything did anything feel different or weird? Did anything stand out at all?

SPEAKER_00 3:59

No, um, it was more uh did anything stand out? No, it you know, that's a great question because this was my dad's job. Like, so this was we we went to Florida to see dad do what he had been selected to do. Um it was his job. It it seemed very normal in my world because uh this was the 25th mission, the 25th space shuttle to launch. My friends who sat next to me in class, their dads had gone up on shuttles. Like, so it was very much just a part of my world, and this was our chance to be um in Florida to watch. I had never seen the space shuttle in person launch. Um so that as it took off, like you can hear it, you can feel it, you see it, you're it is it's just powerful. Yeah, it it's a really special moment. There was for me, there was zero worry or fear that something would go wrong. Um and I I think I had had mentioned to you one my dad raised us to do our best at whatever we did. Sometimes our best resulted in not the grade we wanted or not, you know, what but do the best. And so my my mental framework had been shaped that that's how the whole world lived. And after um we saw what we saw and learned what we learned, I realized that was not how the rest of the world, you know, acted. You know, some our people sometimes don't do their best and disasters sure happen.

SPEAKER_03 5:37

Um and we're gonna we're gonna get into that so it rumbles, it shakes, all this stuff happens, it goes to show when it when it l takes off, so when it I'm gonna use the word disconnect. So when it there's now no turning back.

SPEAKER_05 5:54

No.

SPEAKER_03 5:54

Like at least when it's going and firing up, if something happens that goes wrong, they can stop it. And I believe they have. But it disconnects. Did the feeling change once it like physically got up in the air for you?

SPEAKER_00 6:09

It's like not necessarily. I I mean no, it was it was more just watching. Like we're just watching, and I don't even know if I had processed, we're gonna watch until it goes away, and then dad's gonna be in space. Does that um now? I mean, I don't know if I could share my brother on this side of all of it. I know that that one of the things my father knew, so he was a test pilot, had been a pilot since he was 15, started taking flying. He knew that those first two to three minutes anything was out of his control. So for a pilot who who had gone through all the training he had, was a test pilot, you know, he knew he was gonna be flying the shuttle when they were up there. Um those couple minutes not being in control was I don't I don't I don't know if he would say it was difficult, but it was what it was. Um so now I know that that that was part of what he was probably thinking also.

SPEAKER_03 7:12

Um makes makes perfect sense. So it's it's going, it's going. I mean the famous we've seen it now thousands of times in minutes or or or or ten seconds might feel like sometimes maybe minutes, just for ten seconds like it's going, it's going. Sixty seconds. I mean, this d was anybody signaled of anything on the ground?

SPEAKER_00 7:36

No. No, none of us.

SPEAKER_03 7:38

You saw what we saw.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Yes. It was if if you were watching on television, you saw a closer up version. It was it it seemed, you know, it was far away, but close enough that I don't know if you've seen uh anything launched. You're you're the TV was seeing it much closer. So when the when the explosion happened, um my brain did not process what I was seeing.

SPEAKER_05 8:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Because I had never seen it I had never seen it in person.

SPEAKER_03 8:07

Um You didn't know what to compare it to.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Not yes.

SPEAKER_03 8:11

So at what point then it's it's 73 seconds after liftoff is the technical, but at what point did did you come to terms with, okay, regardless what people are saying or what like you know.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Something has happened. So um so at the moment of the explosion, at the moment at the like it the explosion, everything happened within, I don't know, one or two seconds. The worst happened. And at that exact moment, I took a picture with my little Kodak camera. I had taken a series of about five pictures, and I took a picture of when the external tank exploded, and the solid rocket boosters maybe had just barely come off. And I turned to my brother, and again, I mean, again, one second, and I turned to Scott and I said, Isn't it beautiful? And I don't know how much I I'd be curious how much time elapsed. It was not less than or not more than a couple minutes, that as I was talking to Scott, and he has told me he knew that that something had happened, um, I saw people coming up up the stairs to the rooftop, and I remember thinking, this doesn't feel right. Something has happened. So I I don't necessarily I remember seeing them because they quickly came and got us. I don't remember turning my head back to watch, and they took us down the stairs. I know that um George Abbey, who was he loved my dad. He was uh he was the person at NASA. There's a book he um I don't know if he wrote it, it's called The Astronaut Maker, but he was in charge of selecting the astronauts, and he has told my mom that uh his first thought was we need to get to the families. I mean, this will make me cry, but we need to we need to get them off the roof, we need to take care of them. This was there was no um there was no manual for what to do when something like this happened, so they did the best they could. They took us down, and it was when we went into the office that we had been waiting in to collect our belongings that um I remember looking out. This they were the windows were a little slanted, all glass, because you know, you're at the Cape, this is a place you can watch rockets launch into space, so it's designed to look out. And I remember looking out and seeing what by then was maybe four or five minutes past the explosion and just seeing the clouds in the air. And you know, you you you put together what I saw, what people, how people were acting. Clearly, we did not stay on the rooftop to continue watching something. I was 14, something bad had happened, and so um they quickly, we got our things, put us on the elevator, and uh to take us down. And when I say us, it's you know, the family, the other people who work for NASA, the flight surgeon, the people who are there to be supportive to the families would um were gathered, and um by this time I was just bawling. Um someone told me I need to stop crying because I was upsetting the others, and I remember thinking that's a you know interesting thing to say when what was supposed to be a a joyful, exciting thing has turned into, you know, I'm putting words to it now. At the moment, you're just responding like a tragedy, you know what was supposed to be a great thing has turned into a tragedy. And um they put us on the bus. My sister was extremely upset, she was eight, and we drove to the crew quarters. Um, I don't know how far that was away. And by the time we got to the crew quarters, um, television was the only thing that would have told us what was happening um since there weren't iPhones and whatnot, and they had turned those off. So uh that day we I bet we got there if at 11:38. I bet we were there by 1215 at the latest. And um they had turned off the TVs and the kids. I remember we 11 of us kids, well, two were babies, so the grow the older kids sat in the living room area of the crew quarters, which was where the astronauts had um quarantined before the launch, and they took the adults, so our parents or like Judy Resnick wasn't married, so her siblings or parents probably went in and they told them, you know, definitively, like it is not it's not good, it's this has happened. So, but I didn't learn for sure until later that afternoon when I talked to my mom.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

So was there still a little bit of hope? You just know.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

I always had hope. I uh the Lord created me to be an optimist. My dad had taught me people do their best. I could not in any, I I that it's it's weird because deep I knew I lost my dad, but I didn't know I lost my dad. I was like, surely, surely they there was some way they could have gotten out. Like, does that make any you know, I'm 14 and and I I remember thinking maybe they're just floating somewhere. Maybe they're like this can't be real. It it can't be real. Um so I I I I knew they were, I mean, when you know, there's more to the story of us being at the crew quarters, but by the time we made it around back home to Houston, I I knew they were gone. I mean, I knew that, um, what my mom had shared with me. But until I saw it on television later that night, and again, there are things that fill in that, until I saw it on TV at my best friend's house, what the world was watching, I was like, wow, okay, this they really, you know, the close-up explosion break apart of the orbiter. The why. The why, the, the, the, that kind of it's a blurry picture of the orbiter where the crew is just because the I don't know if you know this, but the external tank exploded. The orbiter where the crew was did not explode. It it an astronaut explained this to me once, which I would not do a great job explaining, but it the orbiter was was air aerodynamically unable to sustain its trajectory and simply started shaking, and that's what caused it to break apart. So it did not explode.

SPEAKER_05 14:39

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Um, and the solid rocket boosters went off, they did not explode. So it really was the external tank that exploded, and the the orbiter broke apart, and then the crew cabin was uh catapulted into the air. My mom says that would have felt to my father, um, it would have felt like flying off of an aircraft carrier. So it would not have felt he he I I'm sure he knew something was wrong, but it it would not have been an unfamiliar feeling to go into the air and then um well then it that would have been unfamiliar, the the fall to the ocean, which is where they um which is what caused sure their death. Um and I I mean, do you want me to I I can like the uh my dad was alive that whole way down. His um the crew cabin is um it's set up where there it's called personal egress air packs, and so each astronaut has one of those. If there's a loss of cabin pressure, they can turn that on, put their visor down, and it will feed oxygen into their visors. So my my dad was in the right front seat, uh Dick Scoby was in the left, and then behind them were Judy Resnick and Elan Izuka. My father and and uh Dick's were the personal eager's air packs were behind their seats, so the two back passengers had to reach forward and turn them on. My dad's was turned on, Dick Scobie's was not. Uh my mom sat in the actual um crew cabin after they pulled it from the ocean and because she wanted to see how who was able to reach my dad's to turn it on. And I think it it I'm she's about Judy Resnick's size, so Elon Izuka probably was the one who turned my dad's on. And when they found the crew cabin and measured how much oxygen had been used, my dad had been breathing the whole way down. And um, some of the pilot, some of the astronauts who are also pilots sat in my dad's seat, looked at the um switches that were flipped and said, these this is this is what I would have done if I had been in Mike's seat. I would have flipped those because you're as a test pilot, you are trained. I wonder if there was a moment he thought about us as a family. I I I wouldn't be surprised if he was just on no pun intended autopilot, you know, if he was just doing the job he had been trained because he was such a good pilot and so well trained. But they said those that was the sequence and the the switches they would have flipped. So that means there was, you know, for the two and a half minutes, at least for most of it, I I think he was that he was alive.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

I never knew any of that. That's incredible. What uh what what was the last thing he said to you?

SPEAKER_00 17:38

Uh I don't know the answer to the question. Yes. I I'm not sure the answer to that question. He uh I bet I I don't know the exact date, but he they had to go into quarantine at the Johnson Space Center before for maybe a week before they flew they, the crew, before they flew to Florida for the launch, which ended up it originally was gonna be on the 22nd. It was delayed like you know, a couple reasons. And the night before he went in, no, I'm sorry, the night before my mom, which that's a whole interesting story. The night before my mom and my brother Scott and my sister Aaron and I flew to Florida. He snuck home from quarantine, snuck home, uh came home from quarantine and he hugged us. So that's the last time I saw him. Um I remember kind of crawling to the end of my bed and give him a big hug. I, you know, I love you. And uh that I it I never would have thought that would be the last time I would see him.

SPEAKER_05 18:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Um, I I know I talked to him a couple times during the week while we were in Florida. I I cannot recall what we said. Um it was probably just normal, you know, chit-chat. And then my he called the uh morning of the launch and talked to my mom. I remember I was sleeping on the floor of the condo we were in, and I just you know, I was a kid. I was tired. I just pretended I was still asleep and didn't talk to dad. I mean it was you know, he was coming back.

SPEAKER_03 19:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

He was coming back. This was he's just going to work. Yeah, he's just exactly. This he's just going to work. Um so I'm not sure what I'm not sure what I said, and that's okay. Yeah. I knew he loved him. My brother and sister and I talk all the time.

SPEAKER_03 19:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

We know our dad loved us.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

No doubt.

SPEAKER_03 19:21

That's awesome. What was he like when he wasn't an astronaut?

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Oh, that I love that question. Let's talk about that. He was um uh as a person, he was humble. Uh some people who my mom and dad were not their close friends, of course, but acquainted with did not know he was an astronaut. It wasn't something he didn't know. Didn't know. He just, you know, he was uh I was able to speak at um the Day of Remembrance at the Kennedy Space Center this last January because it was well anyway, uh I won't go into all that, but but um one of the things I love about my dad and uh stories that my mom shared, and then I I passed this on, is you know, after work, people knew where my dad was going. Like a lot of astronauts, and it is fine that other astronauts did this, they would go to um some of the gathering places the astronauts would go to. Great. People knew Mike Smith would go home. He just wanted to be with his family.

SPEAKER_04 20:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

So he um I love that I remember we lived he we lived in Virginia Beach. He was in the um Sunday Punchers. The he he was uh you know a pilot for the Navy off out of Oceana, and um he wanted to spend more time with family. So I remember him pulling my brother and I into the master bedroom and saying, Okay, kid, and my sister was little, she was about two, so he didn't, he said, Okay, kids, you know, I'm thinking of doing something different. I either want to uh we would move to Memphis and he'd be a FedEx pilot, or I might apply to be an astronaut. Um he probably didn't go into, you know, they're starting the space shuttle and all that. It was just and uh yeah, I I remember my this is probably the only um my first thought was I I don't want you to be an astronaut because you might die. And I said that out loud. That's the only time, and then it just I went on. I mean I it was that was it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:22

That was it.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

You know, that's but I remember thinking that, but I'd never ever dwelled on that. Uh so he applied with um over 3,000 other people for the 1980. If you ever read, if you ever read that he applied in 1978 and did not get chosen, that is not true. Oh he applied one time, yeah, it's written in some places. He applied one time for the 1980 group. He was selected, and um there were 19 of them selected out of over 3,000. And uh when dad received the call from George Abbey, um the he was the one who met us as or gathered us from the rooftop, uh he in a nutshell said to George, Can I call you back? I need to talk to my wife and kids first. But he he just wanted to make sure we were on board with this. Um being an astronaut was his path to then what he wanted to do next. So it'd be a great adventure. He wanted to fly the shuttle, you know, get that in his His uh flying resume.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

What did he want to do? What did he want to do next?

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Oh, he uh that's a good question. I wish my mom was here, she could answer it better. He he I don't know. He wanted to he knew this would create opportunities for him.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

What a resume. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

But uh like I mean, he so he was humble, he um knew what I mean. My mom has always said when he asked her to marry him. He said, Here's what I want to do, are you okay with that? You know, are you okay for with the adventure? She's like, Yeah, let's go.

SPEAKER_05 22:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Um he loved spending time with us. He loved doing woodworking out in the um garage and remodeled different spaces in our home, built a boat house at uh on the lake we lived on in Houston. Um he he just wanted to hang out. Uh he he he wasn't super warm and fuzzy. I mean, but we l he knew we knew he loved him. I mean, we we knew he loved us.

SPEAKER_05 23:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

He uh helped my brother create a lawn mowing business that then I joined. I mean, he was always you know creating opportunities for us to learn and grow. He I I would not use the word that he was strict, but he was um disciplined and we knew what he expected of us, and so you know, we tried to stay in those fair. He was fair, yes.

SPEAKER_05 23:47

With boundaries.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

He he explained things where we're like, okay, this makes sense. Yes, we'll we'll get out and mow eight lawns today, even though we'd love to watch cartoons, you know. Um so he was he was very driven. He he was yeah, I could go on and on with stories um uh hard work.

SPEAKER_03 24:08

Pick pick pick one of your one of your favorites.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Oh, okay. One one favorite is uh so uh there's six years difference between my sister and I. So my brother's the oldest, and then I'm two and a half years younger, and then Aaron came six years later. And uh so I was six, and dad said, Hey, let's make a bet. Uh you tell me what you think mom is gonna have. So I picked a girl, he and so he by default had to pick a boy, and the prize was the winner would get, well, I mean, I don't know if he would have done us six scoops of ice cream from Baskin Robinson. So he called from the hospital to tell us we were our friends of Van Sickles, you know, mom had the baby, we you know, whatever, and what'd she have? And he said, and I'm six, he says, uh, it's a boy. I'm like, you're joking, no. And he's like, no, no, no, it's a girl, and he told us her name. And so we went and I got all six scoops on one ice cream cone. I don't remember probably Charlie Brown was one of their chocolate and peanut butter, I'm sure, was one of the ones in there. Yeah. So he was always, you know, like, hey kids, can you ride? We'd go on bike rides. Hey, can you ride your bike and uh from here with no hands and turn into the driveway if you can do it? I'll get it was always ice cream, wasn't it? Always ice cream. It's great. So the great motivator.

SPEAKER_03 25:25

Yes ice cream. What what does it look like for an astronaut day to day?

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Oh, um what did they even do?

SPEAKER_03 25:33

Where like you m did you move from Virginia to we moved, yes, we moved from Virginia.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

No, no, no. Um they train in Houston. So at the Johnson Space Center. Okay. So we lived in Clear Lake. Well, we lived in Seabrook, we lived in Timber Cove, look it up, awesome neighborhood. It was created right during um the first astronaut, right after the Mercury astronauts were selected. John Glenn lived there, um Jim Lovell, you know, Apollo 13, he lived we not when we lived there, one of one of the astronauts selected with my dad moved into his house. I mean, it was very natural and normal that down the street where the Kinslers, they created the flag that Neil Armstrong left on the moon that looks like it's waving, but it's not really, it's a stationary flag because there's no wind on the moon. Mr. Schaues, whose lawn we mowed, he would we'd stand talking to him and he's like, Oh yeah, you know, this is in the kitchen of his house. He's like, Oh yeah, you know, Mrs. Schhouse and I, we would play around and come up with space food here. Yeah, like this was just that's just it. This was just our um but your question, what was your question? I got sidetracked. That is so cool. Like no, just the the day. That is part of it. Um sure, yeah. Some of the and I know my dad did because there was um what maybe five and a half years between his selection and his actual mission. So backing up, you know, maybe a year of that was training for the mission he was gonna go on, and so that leaves about four years. The first year you're you're an astronaut candidate, so you're it's it's a lot of um just like like being a first year uh resident for surgery, like you're just gener it it's very basic.

SPEAKER_05 27:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

After that, um they do things like they're aside sometimes, they're assigned to be with a family whose whose astronaut parent or or family member is launching down at the Cape. So they'll go there and you know be like a you know, a go-between take take taking them where they need to be. Yeah, we had one of those. Um they uh my dad designed the uh night landing system for the space shuttles, so for any of the night landing to light the runway, he had a team of I think there were seven of them. Uh I love this is a good he got a cash prize and he knew that you know it was the team, and so he divided it seven ways. Uh, you know, so he did that. He was um What is that thing? What night landing uh it would light up the runway so the shuttle could see as it was um you know he created it. He created it, he and his team. Uh he some sometimes was on the checkout crew um for a launch where you know you're the ones buckling in that like Sunny Carter was an astronaut who buckled in my dad and the crew, and you know, just all kinds of things are needed. Sure. Um he was George Abbey's right hand man in the astronaut office for for a while, and there was a name for that. Um so yeah, they're busy.

SPEAKER_03 28:34

I mean, like simulators and stuff or absolutely what kind of flying training did they do?

SPEAKER_00 28:39

I guess uh well the pilots, um astronaut pilots can use the T38s. So uh that's the that's NASA's jet um T-38. So uh but then training, you're in a you're in the flight simulator. It's a mock-up of the crew cabin of the shuttle.

SPEAKER_03 28:57

Yeah. Did did it ever fully come out as far as like what what actually happened? Oh, absolutely. They know for certain.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Do you think for certain, yes, hundred percent? Hundred percent.

SPEAKER_03 29:08

And what is it?

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Yes. Uh that's a that's a long story. Can I do a plug for a book? Please.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Read whatever answers the question.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Challenger by um Adam Higginsbotham is just excellent.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

Challenger.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

Challenger. Uh it's it's heroism and disaster on the edge of space. I believe that's the okay the the full and Adam wrote uh it's just excellent. Um, and he does a a very good uh detailed explanation that that anyone can understand. But uh, but I'll I'll tell you that the um the Challenger, my dad's flight of Challenger, it was the coldest measurable temperatures of any shuttle flight up to that point. And um I I don't think I can I don't think I'm capable of explaining all, but there had been so so the solid rocket boosters are put together in segments, and in between each of those segments are O-rings, which are uh like large rubber rings. That's much more much more detailed than that. Um and uh the O-rings, there there were there were it came out afterward that there were shuttle flights where there um were incidents called blowbys where the the O-rings have different layers that are for protection so that the solid rocket fuel inside does not escape.

SPEAKER_04 30:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Somebody else can explain it better than I can. Yeah, sure. But there were there were some blowbys where there were almost accidents, but but it um it didn't happen. And uh the cold temperatures before my father's flight uh caused damage to the O-ring that did not okay, so so caused damage to the O-ring, and um when it launched, you can there's a picture that um that I have that I have found somewhere where you can see before it leaves the launch pad, um like a puff, like a cloud of black smoke has come out from the damaged O-ring. And um I learned within the last like 15 years, somebody's telling me that as as the shuttle continued into the air, you know, and none of this we could see, and nobody was watching this. You see it in hindsight, but that that plug that opening plugged back up because of the heat and pressure. And so ironically, one minute into the flight was a gust of wind that was the highest measured wind to hit a shuttle during launch, and it unplug it caused that plug to dislodge. And so the um that opening became a flame that was pointed toward the external tank, and the the um the uh solid rocket boosters are connected to the external tank by metal struts. So that flame burned through the struts, um hit the external tank, it exploded, and then you know, the solid rocket boosters fell off, and you know what you saw happen happened. So um, yeah, I I I don't know how soon after, I think within the first couple months that started to um unfold. And the Rogers Commission, President Reagan, um set that up to find out exactly what happened.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

And there's so much more detail to it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

But You did a great job with it for not being an engineer. You made it make sense.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

A beautiful thing that has come out of that, if I can I mean, it's uh I mean I say that a beautiful thing. So so be the night before any launch, there's a a decision-making um discussion that happens between Johnson Space Center, Kennedy Space Center, Huntsville, Marshall, uh uh, whoever's in Huntsville, and they they look at what and Morton Thyacol, which is the company that makes the solid rocket boosters, and so they look at every, you know, hey, are we good to launch? There's I don't know checklists. Um and during that, like there it it is a it is a uh my actually my daughter studied that in college, and I won't get into that, but studied it has been used in classrooms as a decision-making tool to teach kids how difficult decisions are in business or in companies, and then you know, what what can the res what the result can be. But um in that there were the engineers, there was a group of five engineers who were adamant not to launch and you know uh gave their reasons, and one of them, this is my the point of my story, is one of them, Brian Russell, um, was in the room at Morton Thiacal and uh was part of those five, and as you know, the decision was made to launch, but um full circle is that uh I did a um in an interview for a uh Netflix documentary um challenger uh oh what's the tag anyway, is it you can find it. And at the end, after I did all that, I asked the director, you know, are were there any of the engineers you interviewed who um I could talk to because for years I had hoped that my path would cross with them. And my mom had my mom knew some of them because she just was an adult and dealing with some things after launch. Um but I had never, and I just hoped that my path would cross so I could say, hey, I I'm okay. And I don't I mean there's the element of forgiveness, but not even knowing what really their part was, but yeah, like I know I've heard stories just the anguish that they could not stop the launch. And so I was connected with Brian Russell, who was a you know, young in early 30s and was in that room. And um since then, like we've emailed a bunch, we've done Zoom calls and shared our stories, and his story has been part of my healing, my story's been part of his healing. I I mean it has been a just a it's been wonderful. Like it's really been wonderful to have now a friend who has uh fleshed out even more what happened, but uh that that we could be part of each other's story in this way. That's incredible. Because yeah, forgiveness. I don't have any bitterness toward or anger toward anyone who made any decision. God has worked that out of me, smushed it out of me.

SPEAKER_03 35:34

I can't wait to get into that part. I I do have another question on this though. So, what does that decision-making process look like? You said five said no.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Yes, it that's a comp I don't know if I can fully answer all of that, even though Brian told me his story, so now I understand it more. It's yeah, it the because there's managers, there's engineers, there's there's so many elements that go into it. The time factor, the money factor, the you know, it's it hasn't been a problem before, you know. So do we risk it? And uh it it is extremely complicated. I actually, the my daughter who studied it at school, I that that's a funny story, but I ended up I was able to go have coffee with the professor who was doing that once he found out that the granddaughter of the challenger you know was in his class. Sure. And this is a a lesson he's because he it's it's directly related to Challenger, what he is teaching as far as decision making. And so I was able to sit across the table from him and listening to him talk to me while we were having coffee, and he just the complicated process of making any decision that's not straightforward. Um, and then he was able I was able to hear that part from him, so I don't know if I could explain it all, but and sure, and then he was able to hear the human side from me, which was which I think was mutually again mutually beneficial because um I had not really thought through everything that he shared. But it is it's not any it wasn't just nobody wanted it to happen. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

No one, of course, I mean nobody wanted to make the wrong decision. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

You know, I I and I I was a I've been able to talk to Brian about that. You know, you you can't change what happened, but um, and he did not make my friend Brian Russell, he was we should not launch.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

So what happened then? It was supposed to go January 20th.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

Um it was supposed to launch January 22nd. I can't remember why it was delayed a little bit. January 27th, we went to the Cape or to the, you know, we did the whole process of being in the um office waiting. We did not make it to the rooftop that day because um as they closed the hatch, there was a bolt that they couldn't get to work. They NASA people, you know, whoever's closing the door to seal the astronauts in, there was a bolt that was faulty and they didn't have the right equipment. And so by the time they could get the equipment, I hope this is all accurate. I'm pretty sure it is. By the time they could get the equipment to the launch pad, they would have missed the window. So it was a while, it was a um yeah, they canceled the launch that day. Um, we went back and it was that n afternoon, and I remember it was that afternoon that the cold front came in. Um, when we moved to Atlanta, people were all the people I talked to, yeah, we were home from school that day. We were home from school that that was a snow day. Yeah. And that makes sense weather-wise, that just south of Atlanta is is where the shuttle's launching and the wind, I mean, I'm sorry, the weather pattern had gone, you know, had covered that part of Florida also. I remember we had to switch condos um because we were thought we we thought we were gonna go home on the 27th. We had to stay another day, somebody needed our condo. We so we had and I remember walking up the stairs to wherever the new place we were staying, and it was incredibly windy and so cold. So um yeah, and then for whatever reason they decided to go ahead and launch that next day. My dad thought that they would have launched on that was a Tuesday. My dad really thought they were gonna launch on Sunday the 26th because it was pristine blue sky. I mean, the weather, he was a pilot, and he was fascinated with the weather. We have um weather maps at my mom's house that he ordered before, like within the year before he launched, because he was um wanted to understand the weather patterns. He was he was a pilot.

SPEAKER_03 39:45

This is what that's what they do, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:50

And you know, um, he even asked a friend of ours had to fly back to North Carolina from Florida when the launch was scrubbed. He had to get back to work, and my dad called him, and the guy had a his own plane, and he said, you know, how was the flight back? And that friend was able to tell him how cold it was, you know, that we this and that. And so my dad was like, We're we're not gonna fly.

SPEAKER_05 40:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

He called my mom that morning, the morning of the actual launch, and said, Get the kids ready to go back to Houston, they need to get back to school, we're not gonna launch today. So, but at that at that time also, astronauts did not have any say in the launch decision. Uh now they do. Um, now they are very involved.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

Um as a result. As a result, obviously. Yes, yes. Obviously, right? Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Which is as it should be, right?

SPEAKER_03 40:41

I would think so. What what did your dad fly before?

SPEAKER_00 40:44

Oh, uh, I should know all that too. He flew uh A6s in Vietnam, he flew F4s, um, he flew, I think I I just had looked at I should know these answers, like uh That's okay. Like there's a certain number of different type of aircraft, 20-something maybe. I should know. My favorite is that he has uh he has eight minutes of blimp time. When we lived in Houston, we were able to go from the our family, the good year blimp, and he got to be at the controls.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

So you were in it? Oh yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

Yes, I have a great picture of my my sister and my dad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

So here's that. We talked about it right before. It's like everybody has this story. So you're we're here talking for the story, right? Obviously, but now you have a story within it. You were on a blimp. Yes. I want to have you on another episode to talk about the blimp.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

I I I I can't remember too much about like, oh, that's cool. We're moving really slowly.

SPEAKER_03 41:39

Yeah. Was he was he in the the five-year period of being hired as an astronaut?

SPEAKER_00 41:46

It was when we lived in Houston. No, it was when we lived in Houston. So he were so we were he was an astronaut then.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

Were you six six, seven, other than that? Oh, how old?

SPEAKER_00 41:54

No, no, no. I was probably because we moved to Houston when I was 10, turned 10, and then my dad died when I was 14. 14. So it was within that time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:03

That's so cool. In the in the blimp. So let's move into um so many questions around like the the grief and how that shaped you. And I think a good starting point would be let's let's go to the day, right? So you're there's national platform, it's on the news. I would imagine there's like a whole adrenaline piece. I don't know. Different than somebody's dad who just passes away that's not on national news. Like how did it all play together? Start with the day.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Okay, so um the day.

SPEAKER_03 42:43

Were you just numb all day?

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Like did you accept it or so sad. Yeah. Just so sad. Yeah.

unknown 42:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

Probably sad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

Yeah, so sad. Um just sad all around. Uh so sad that I mean my cheeks burned from all the crying. Um, couldn't believe it. Went home, you know, we we they flew us home to Houston that night. And I remember just putting my head on my brother's lap and crying because we were leaving my dad. You know, I didn't know where he was. I didn't know that they were I I just didn't, I had no context for what I was experiencing. Um my brother did a little bit because Scott had always heard from it. He it wasn't ever the you're gonna be the man of the house, but it was here's what's here's the reality of having a dad who's a test pilot, who's a pilot, who goes away um as a Navy pilot on the, you know, things can happen. So Scott knew that and I didn't. Um so uh my mom knew that and I didn't, you know, and Aaron didn't, my sister didn't, but um it's really sad and uh landed at Ellington Air Force Base from uh you know back in Houston and uh just I remember getting off the NASA jet and just uh like a sea of people, and it was all people we knew who were there to um because because this was the community. The we we were their family, if that makes sense, you know. These were the people I talked about in our neighborhood, these were the other astronaut families, these they were there because they lost their friends. They lost their friends, you know. On so um went back home. I stayed home from school the next day, and you know, of course, it is just on repeat on the TV. Repeat, repeat, repeat. The house is filled. You know, I have to say, uh, and anybody, you know, my story was um extremely public out there. It the that's an element of grieving that's different than someone who loses their family member in a car wreck or cancer, but the sadness is the same, you know. I recognize that. Like, the the does that make sense? Like loss is loss. Um I mean, we live in a broken world, everyone is gonna suffer, which is part of why I like to tell my story. Um, because what are we gonna do with that suffering? You know, God does not waste our suffering if we let Him work through it. But I know we'll get to that. Um, but I stayed home that day. Uh oh, that's what I was gonna say is that it wasn't it was incredibly sad, but there's a part of it like these people who love us are around, and that's fun. Not fun, that's not the right word, but comforting. I mean, there's a you know, it we lost my dad, but I remember it was nice to have family members there, it was nice to have our neighbors there.

SPEAKER_03 45:40

It was, you know, that that yeah did it did it matter that the whole you really had like the whole country.

SPEAKER_00 45:49

Well, so okay, so that day I watched on TV, that hadn't hit me yet. Um, well, I mean, backing up the night before we got on the plane to fly back to Houston, I called my best friend. Um, I can't remember if I didn't share this yet today, did I? And uh Jill, and I wanted to tell her what happened because I I and she was crying, but I thought she was laughing, and I'm like, but I thought she was happy to hear from me because I had missed a week and a half of school, which was a long time, you know, and she was crying, and and I'm like, I but I thought she was laughing, and so I said, No, no, no, Jill, like the worst thing has happened. She said, Allison, it's it's all over the news. They let school out, you know, because everybody's you know, every other kid's parent worked in some way for NASA. They let school out, like, and I was like, really?

unknown 46:35

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

So it was at that moment that my world started to shift from I've lost my father to what now I can say is I lost my dad, the rest of the world also has a story about the day I lost my dad. That's that's still, I'm 40 years older, is still hard to process that. Um, the next day, though this is a great example of how my world changed. The next day I stayed home, I watched TV, I realized, okay, that's fine, but I'm ready to go back to school on Thursday, so two days later. And the way our school was set up, the ninth grade was in its own separate building. And so I was in ninth grade, and before class before school started, we all just sat in the cafeteria. And I mean, I had friends, but I wasn't, you know, I wasn't popular or you know, I just hadn't I just had friends. Um and I walked into the cafeteria and you know, I mean it's loud because a lot of and it went silent because I I walked it like that's how my world changed. Everybody knew who I was because I mean, because this, you know, this was the 9-11, the Kennedy shot moment of that generation.

SPEAKER_03 47:43

And um, yeah, like for lack of a better word, instant popularity is a weird thing for better or for worse, or you didn't even know at that time.

SPEAKER_00 47:55

No, both, both, both. I mean, it it's it it's wonderful to have my dad and the crew remembered like that. That's that's a gift. Um the words people have shared, you know, how they it it just that's a gift. Uh what does a 14-year-old do with everybody knowing who you are? You know, it can it it and I wasn't a Christian then either. So um yeah, more for the good. More more for the good. More for the good. And then the next day, Friday, you know, I'm on world world TV every with President Reagan and our family at the memorial service at the Johnson Space Center, and um that's a whole story in itself, too. Uh you know, suppressing sadness, just cried the whole time. Um amazing to meet the Reagans. Like Ms. President Reagan was like that, he he just was a gentle grandfather.

SPEAKER_03 48:53

Yeah, you know, what you see is what you get totally with him.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

Yeah. I mean, for the you know, the minutes we spent with him, but it would he was, you know, he even years later, uh, we were going through some things at my mom's, and hey, I don't know why this isn't framed, we should really get it framed. He had written a hand note to my sister, he knew she liked horses, and sent uh, you know, here I wanted to send you a picture of myself on my horse on my ranch in California, you know, and there's so um um, but yeah, that the Friday memorial service was so difficult uh with them. It was just listening to everybody talk about my day. I just I just cried the whole time.

SPEAKER_05 49:34

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

But uh within the story that I'm able to share with with groups that I talk to, I show that picture and I the Lord was right there. He like looking back, he was right there, he was right there comforting me. All of us, he was right there pursuing me, he would rescue me years later. Like the story didn't end with what people see of the 14-year-old, and you know, sad to there's much more, there's much more to it.

SPEAKER_03 50:03

So, in so in the grieving timeline, which never which never ends, for you was it were there different pockets where things hit differently, such as I know songs came out about it. Um Mark Wills has a famous song, it it was 1970 something, and then the 80s that I grew up in and talks about the challenger, and there's mentions of it, but when you would hear it, whether it was months later or even years later, is there different pockets of grieving?

SPEAKER_00 50:37

Absolutely, absolutely how did it all work for you?

SPEAKER_03 50:39

Just yourself?

SPEAKER_00 50:40

Yeah, that's a um wow, do we have like five hours to talk? Um, you know, I think there's the I mean I was 14, so my dad was gone, and um we just missed him. You know, we just missed them, and you're you know, we are a very close family, the four of us were very, very close. But we each have our different stories of how we grieved. I mean, my mom lost her husband, we lost our dad. My sister was only eight. Um, you know, different stories. Uh sure. So, like just sadness. I mean, four years later I started dating my now husband, and you know, he learned like I remember for years and years, it would just like the anniversary would come around, and you know, at first everybody remembered, and then it got to a point where it was like, huh, like like I am incredibly sad today, and I'm looking around going, people don't okay, not I'm not the poor me. But right, but but they're not re you know, do they not know what today is? Not again, not that I needed any uh um I'm not answering your question well. I mean, the it the God has really just been um the okay, so here's a great way to explain. So um I lost my dad in a public, very, very public setting. So again, I can even today travel places, meet people, and one of the first things people say is I remember if they were of age, you know, if they remember, uh, I remember exactly where I was the day your father died. They don't say it like that, but that's how I hear it. Like, this is just my dad, but they have a story that's part of my story. So that really became my identity. Okay, like by default, you know, I'm connected with other people because of my dad. And um, fast forward, I'd have to think it's at least 20 years. We lived in Chicago, uh, we were part of a Sunday school, and they and I always knew there was always a tension in my heart, and I haven't even shared with you that in 1989 my husband shared the gospel with me, and and I was like in a nutshell, wow, I knew Christ died for sin. I didn't realize he died for my sin, and that I need a savior, that he can be my like that Jesus died the death I deserve so that I could have eternal life, and I gave my life to Christ. Best decision I've ever made. So that changed slowly was changing how I grieved. Yeah. Um because uh, but my identity was still very much in, I had I didn't I had never heard the phrase our identity should be in Christ. It still was in who my dad was. And so fast forward to we lived in Chicago, we were in a Sunday school class, and we did this series of Sundays about your your identity being in Christ. And I remember thinking, okay, there is a prayer that I should be praying here. I don't know how to word it. Yeah, you know, and and thinking of the Bible says that you know the Holy Spirit brings our prayers even if we don't have words in so uh so I remember thinking, I really want my identity to be in Christ, but but because of how my my story is, it just feels it so much more in my dad. But I so then jumped to we moved to Dallas, and my youngest daughter was in second grade, and um, you know, I never like wore a name tag my dad died on the challenger, but when you get to know people, it comes up and and part of the gift that I also uh had, I don't know however God created me, it was that from the day my dad died, or you know, soon after, like I I was willing to just talk about that day and tell people the story of that day, which is an interesting, you know, which you've heard a lot of and there's so much more, but sure um that that can be telling your story is healing. Um so anyway, uh so my daughter's in second grade, the school we were at in Dallas, parents drove field trips, and we drove, I was driving the teacher was in my car for one field trip trip, and she was an outside the box thinker. And she says, So, so Lauren has told me that her grandfather died on the challenger. Not in a skeptical Lauren was lying, but like, tell me more about that. And so I did, and she she says, You need to come talk to the class. And nobody had ever asked me to speak to any group of people about my dad. Um, and so I remember that morning I woke up and I thought, okay, I should look at you know the things I have and pull some pictures to show them, and I didn't plan anything. I I stood there and I kind of talked, I didn't know what can you tell us, second, like what's appropriate. This is a scary story, you know. What can you tell about that? But I talked about, you know, the space shuttle and what it was like to be an astronaut's daughter and just kind of skimmed over, I didn't go into any detail about, you know, well, my dad, you know, died in an accident. And um, and then I kind of told a few things about what God had done in my life because of dad's death. And then Ms. Spencer, she's like, You need to talk in chapel. So I'm like, okay, you know, I was invited to talk to the chapel, and and I thought, well, I'll just stand up there, you know, same thing, kind of five or ten minutes and talk to them. And my husband said, Allison, you have pictures, you need to do a PowerPoint. And so I had never done a PowerPoint. So I looked through my pictures and the and I got this PowerPoint. I mean, the story has like, okay, I've talked to lots and lots of groups, but but what people don't see, but now I do share as part of the story is that is that I don't want to cry, but the the one-on-one I've had with the Lord, the way that He has been present and real hours and hours of praying. What do you want me to say listening to Him? Just pull together the words that that I share when I share. It's Him. Like He He has He has done it. Like He's He's been right there with me. And like it just makes my soul feel good. I he met me there. Um and and the reason I share is so I can share the gospel. It's like, okay, here's here's the hook, but here's what I really want you to hear. We live in a broken world. We're all gonna suffer. My story is a public one, but uh people have just on repeat told me, you know, what they've when I talked at Perimeter at Veterans Day, somebody came up afterwards and she I had talked about bitterness and how that's gone, and she had lost her father previously, and she said, Two days ago I prayed that the Lord would please take away the bitterness I have about losing my dad. She said, You are my answer to prayer. Like there it just it just goes on and on. And so, so as far as how does grieving work, by me telling my story again and again, and the Lord being in that, he, and I share this as part of my story now, he has healed me. Like he's he, yes, I'm sad, but he has taken away the anger, he's taken away the bitterness, he's healed me. The story, I mean, I I say the story used to be huge, you know, visually huge, and now it's in its right place, and God is big. God was small in my mind as part of my story. I couldn't, I couldn't figure out the words. Yeah, I would just say, Yeah, my dad died, and God is good, and I feel you know, but he's given me the words to then tell, you know, five or six stories as on the back end of here's here's what happened, here's the gospel, and here's the best part is how he has not wasted my suffering. Yeah, he he has shown me himself on repeat. He's faithful, he he is trustworthy, he rescues. He we just need to go to him. Yeah, I could go on and on and on. He's good.

SPEAKER_03 58:57

I want to I wanted to come back to the the goodness. I want you to unpack the goodness part of it. Tell me first the anger that you if you've had did you have an anger towards anybody next to the case? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 59:11

Absolutely. I don't think I had a I mean them. Yeah, you know, whoever absolutely anger. I didn't know enough. I know, like I not the next morning. Well, I don't know the next morning. Um I don't know if I could probably. I mean, as things started coming out in the paper, and um, you know, it's weird to then I would never wish it. I don't even know if I should I don't know why I want to say that. It's hard to, you know, like it happened to my dad. Why was it my dad? Like, and then when it came out, the the mistakes that were made in the decision, you know, absolutely angry that it could have been prevented. Um today, this was the story, you know, nothing surprises the Lord. Yeah, my dad was supposed to live 40 years and certain number of months. Um, there's no guarantee he would be alive today. His birthday was five days ago and he would have been 81. Um, you know, he might have been 81. You know, like I trust the Lord more now that this was the story that was supposed to unfold. How does that make any sense when people make mistakes? I don't know, but um, oh yeah, definitely you can't not have anger, I don't think, when you watch your dad die the way he he did.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:38

Um but the L I mean, he he's just he's amazing. I mean he's just taken that away.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:48

So how do you so how in all of this does somebody reconcile or even use the word goodness?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:57

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:58

How how do you um how he well I know so many people are sitting there you gotta be Yeah, no, that is a that's a great question.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:06

Um nothing is gonna change the fact that my dad died the way he did. Uh I mean I've been walking with the Lord for I don't know decades, you know, 35 years, something like that. And um, you know, there's a phrase having a long obedience in one direction. I I was like, God created me, like just start there by I mean, I'm created by him, and so I I can nothing is greater than him. So if my eyes are on him, if I'm walking with him, if I'm asking him to help me understand um the suffering, he's he's going to answer. Uh I've had a great life. Um I've had a great life. Um I God is not good because circumstances are good in my life, he's good because that's what the Bible says.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:03

That he is good. Uh, this is such a good question. And I just don't know how to there's just a story after a story of um I I think any person listening, if they have let God worked in their heart and mind through suffering, can see. I might have to come back to this question because it's really hard, can see um that God, I mean, he says he brings beauty out of the ashes. He okay, even this morning I shared with the group I was with is that if you put anything up against, well, against the gospel, which is you know, Christ dying on the cross to pay for our sins, if you put in there's no worse suffering than that, I mean, there's no greater suffering than what Christ went through. And so if God can sacrifice his allow his son to be sacrificed on the cross to pay for our sins and and the resurrection happen, and we have that hope that we will be like Christ and resurrected, sure, like you put anything up against that, and I'm gonna be okay no matter what I go through.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:22

Yeah. That is the answer. It is the answer. That is the answer. It's this is no different than when we watch the co in the courtroom uh a parent forgiving somebody who murdered their child. There's not I mean the manner of death is different, is different, but mistakes were happening that caused your father his life. That I don't know. I would think most people would sit here angry at the government for a long, long, long, long, long time.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:59

It that's a bitterness is a really heavy, heavy thing to carry. Anger is very heavy to carry. Yeah, it goes nowhere. Yeah like it's not gonna bring my dad back. That's a cliche, but it it won't.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:15

And um yeah, I mean yeah, like the answer's in you sitting. The answer to me now, listen, is you sitting here with the posture that you have is the answer to it, saying I forgive them. That to me, words don't even need to be spoken when I hear your posture towards I forgive them. I don't because I asked you if you struggle with your anger, sure you did. Now that's been reconciled, there's been a line crossed. I'll call it an invisible line. You don't know the day that you crossed it, but somewhere around a period of time you went over it.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:58

And it and is that staying close to scripture, to what God promises? There's a story I share in when I share my story, and um uh I w we went to the my family went to the last two space shuttle launches. There were 135, I believe, or 37, 35, I should know that too. And two, you know, Columbia and Challenger were the two that did so. There was a lot of success. And um, we went to the last two. It's very bittersweet to be there because like wow, what a reunion with these people who know us. I mean, the community is really tight. The NASA community in Clear Lake is really tight, so it's so fun, but then it's also you know, you're reliving, you're stepping the same steps that you know, and that that's but I would I was kind of going through that, and somebody in my um BS Bible study fellowship class had sent me a verse. We were studying Isaiah that year. It was Isaiah 61, and it's just like it, it's it's a Christ says some of the words in the New Testament about Himself, but it's the you know, beauty to ashes came to um free the captives, and and it goes on and on. And I'm reading those words, and this is what I share with people. I'm reading those words, and I I remember thinking, wow, and I had this image of a glass of clear water, which was my life before dad died, just a normal kid, yeah, you know, nothing had not experienced loss, and then dad died, and it was like like black ink was put into that water and that was that anger bitterness and sadness but then I realized that over the decades of walking close to the Lord knowing his character knowing he keeps his promises doesn't doesn't matter what I'm going that the Holy Spirit and the like has been pouring into that water goodness kindness joy peace patience I mean all of the experiences that you have as a as a follower of Christ and so the the ink is still in there you know I still guess but it's diluted and so God has undergirded me and equipped me to be able to trust him and to know that there is nothing that will separate me from him. Nothing and I get to spend eternity with I mean that that's a I could talk about that a lot.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:12

Right now what's something else it sounds so crazy to even ask it this way but what's something else good that came out of it? That's that's the prize. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:25

What's what's a s a a small thing that you um I mean a a a a a neat thing that happened is immediately after that well probably even before the Friday Memorial Service where Reagan came but it took a while for the letters to get there like every all seven families received like bags and bags of letters from people all over the country. So we estimated about 10,000 letters students I mean every I mean all our I said country that's not right world world world um I mean one within that there was a letter to me by the from this man Brian Williams who was a retired dentist in Wales his daughter's name was Alison and so when you know I was on with Reagan that that whole service he just connected we became pen pals. He came to my wedding you know like um I mean what are good stories like people when I go share my stories one friend in Dallas I I still I would like to someday go back and hear her whole story but she heard my story and she shared with me afterward we had coffee and she said you know about two years ago I went with my husband to um Auschwitz in Germany like you know and saw and she said I have been angry at God since going there and she said something about you sharing your story I'm not I'm not angry anymore. There those little that's probably got got it like the best thing is that the Lord saved me. That's the best thing that's come out of it. You know but these little slices of people's stories that I get to hear are so um such evidence of God working in other people's lives. One time I go back to the same school this year was 14 years in Dallas they just keep inviting me back each year for their it doesn't matter they invite me and uh one year I like was talking to the kids about well because I always you know encourage them like listen to my words you're not going to remember everything but there might be a few that God wants you to remember and at the end one of the um she was actually a substitute teacher came up and she said she said you are so right she said when I was in college I was not a Christian walking by somebody's room on my dorm and I heard the words quiet time and that intrigued her and she went in and she ended up like learning you know quiet time is when you spend time in the Lord I mean in the word in the word and the you know reading your Bible stuff and she said that's how I became a Christian because then I heard you know like like what's good is I mean I've been able to share I don't know I mean close to a hundred times with whoever asks me. I mean I don't I don't if it doesn't interfere with my family and I'm able to go I'll say yes but um I mean that's that's that's something good.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:11

Incredible wow how do they reach out do they reach out to you? Usually just word of mouth through your website like how does it Oh I don't no I don't I don't self-promote or any no I just so if somebody wants to contact they'll leave comments here but do you have like uh Instagram anything no nothing well I mean I have Instagram but uh I mean I think the last commercial use no no but you'll speak if you'll speak if somebody asks you to speak but you're not on a speaker circuit.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:39

No. Okay no great I'm not that's great to know yeah I raised my girls and I mean it's hard enough to be away from them just like overnight to do you know some of but uh but you know I mean I share the say it's the same story but God tweaks it and I'll change up the slides and depending on the audience and but you know I mean it is it's I can't change my story.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:00

You can change it. Right right so your dad um how would how would I see your dad in you do do do I see would I see it?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:13

Yeah you would yes I think in each of us kids my mom would say um I love reading yeah love reading he was a reader yeah uh what do you read what do I read what sorry what did he read he read um oh that's a good question he always had this book well it it's it's actually now it down at the Kennedy Space Center in a display that honors the Columbia and Challenger crew uh he had a book of run that was just called Running that was always next to his thing he uh like like running forever running right yeah he ran about five miles every day yeah he yeah he would come home and he wasn't he was not mean spirited at all but he would always like while he was running take off his shirt because it was so hot in Houston and he'd just toss it on one of us you know as a joke I mean that was it memories I don't I don't know if I could he I don't I don't know what he read he um he had me one time and I never finished it I remember trying to before he came home read this book how to get control of your time money and something else yeah my youngest daughter read it the actual his copy of it yeah uh treasures something I mean yeah yeah yeah yeah he's cool but he so reading reading what else he had to be persistent oh he was persistent yeah you know probably like a little bit of a type A personality in the best ways um how can you not structure yes yes I mean I'm I'm structure I like administrative tasks make sense to me uh um cool yeah yeah he was a good dad do do you have a any kind of re do you feel like responsible to continue to carry um a message of his in any way shape or form? You know I should feel more responsible I I uh I you know I'm involved um just as much as I can with the Challenger Learning Center which maybe you haven't heard of so big plug Challenger Challenger Challenger Center there there are 33 around the United States within within a year of well or less within six months of the crew's death uh June Scoby who was an educator had the idea of creating a center that would educate you know now it's STEM it's all STEM related educate students and teachers because of course my dad's flight had Krista McAuliffe on they they all were educators I mean I need to make sure I and they weren't educators by trade but they all were interested in education teaching continual learning Krista was an actual teacher and her job was is she was going to teach from space some lessons that were prepared but you know as a as a living memorial to the crew there there are challenger centers all over the country my husband just he's doing an executive leadership program and just went to the challenger center in Chattanooga which I have to remember where I am so it's not too far from here there's one in Chattanooga there's one in Chattanooga I mean they're they're all over so um it's just a great people can follow them on Instagram it's it's just a fantastic program they these kids learn about a mission then they go to the in their classroom they go to the Challenger Center they they are have the roles they they participate in a you know mock mission yeah um and and that's just one of the things that Challenger Center does there's so cool I'm following them right now actually I wanted to follow it just this is the actually this is the 40 year so I think it was April it was April like mid-April which is the actual um this is cool start of uh picture your crew right here they just um like like I think it's all the spouses are the family members by one two three four yeah and the seven yes it's it's just a fantastic organization so really cool um okay great that's something great that's come out of yeah well you know the tragedy yeah for sure um what do you think the public still gets wrong about the event as a whole I I I don't I don't think if anything maybe maybe there's not I'm I'm not sure who I mean I think from from my position when I talk to people about it I usually have shared my story so they hear what you know what is true. I it I remember the point where I was talking to people and I realized okay they weren't alive when Dad died. So that doesn't really answer your question but that was an interesting moment where I thought okay I need to give a little bit of context about NASA and space and because there's a time in our country where nothing was launching you know maybe satellites but um I don't know how to I don't know I'd be interested to hear anything out there.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:09

Probably just details and yeah yeah people have an an opinion one way or another but cool um what would you say that families families like you guys um carry that nobody sees that nobody sees um I mean probably the I don't know if I would use the word it was a traumatic experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:43

I don't know if we're living in big trauma but to watch is it's mind-boggling that my dad was you know miles up in the air and the trauma of the that happening that probably is not something which plenty of other people go through trauma.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:10

It's different this one's different when he at least to me I mean if your dad's in Iraq in a war and comes home in a casket that's all the thing it's sad that's loss it's grief it's all those things this happened right above your head. Right I don't know if I don't know if that's even different.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:31

I mean it feels it yeah you know and that makes me think your last question you know what do what do people not see or what do they get wrong? I think that people you know I've read things if you lose anyone there needs to be a even a small part of it where okay I don't know how to phrase it is it worth it not like like was it worth it for my dad to choose to be an astronaut and like why are the astronauts going into space? And um I mean plug for the Kennedy Space Center if you go there you will see a huge amount of everyday benefits that we have because of the space shuttles that launch you know there there's just you could just look it up online that you know and it and it I I I look it up online. I don't want to say the wrong things but there are daily conveniences or things that we enjoy because you know however many men and women have been launched so like freedoms we enjoy that we can't even count because of what the military does. Yes is that that's okay that and you know like that's so are Apple phones there are things about that there they're just our there it it was not for nothing. You know I think that's maybe sometimes people have said you know well what why are we launching people into space but but there's a whole answer to that.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:03

That's a big reason that's a huge one yeah right there. Then I'm still learning about too I mean but you don't feel do you feel that do you question that now you say why are we still why are we still launching people into space?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:14

I think it's really awesome. You're you're all in then I mean I am I mean the Artemis that just what your dad would want you to I mean I think so yeah I mean I I you know God created the universe everything for us to be able to do anything that is creative or interesting or or uh discoveries or inventions or launching space he already put into our world for us to discover yeah so why would we want to squelch that like why why not right go launch you know yes you can get into the nitty gritty of yes it's expensive uh you know and yes there but but like wow I mean it's necessary too it it is yeah like go for it um I love it that's awesome do you do you see your life when you look back right now do you do you look back and see a split down the middle and say life before an event and life after and do you see two parts in your I'm just curious for you like a and here's why I ask cancer survivors that I've interviewed will say there was my life before the doctor said the three words and then there was my life after and they have one split in their life no matter how many other pivot points they had but you have you've had two huge ones really right one was traumatic and one faith and one is the disaster. And that's what I want to hear especially from you your opinion do you see wow I had a split but then I had another split absolutely are they the same size tell tell me oh same size oh that's I've never even thought of it that way I told you I was gonna ask you questions that you're not used to being asked absolutely a a family of five and then a family of four absolutely um you know four dad sure I mean we still talk about them and I mean yeah I mean he he it I would say family of four it yeah you know what I mean um I mean he is gone he's not with us definitely a split and then um yeah and then I think like I'd say God stepped in he was already already there I I I I had this uh so I've kept a journal since I was in seventh grade and um you know not every day but probably every day now but uh and I I've started to my goal was to finish read through them and kind of get rid of what I needed to just get rid of by the time I was 50 well I'm four years delayed on that but anyway hopefully I'll get through them but I was reading through so my husband Glenn um he was talking just about his life and he was talking about how Jesus impacted his life in the fall of 1989 when we had first started dating he never really okay here's the gospel Allison and one two three he didn't say it like that but whatever he said I the Holy Spirit helped me see what I probably had heard before but didn't understand and that was what I shared with you earlier just that you know it was my sin that Jesus died for and he was offering me the free gift of eternal life if I confessed with my mouth that he is Lord and believe in my heart. And as I that the in my journals back to them if I read through my words from that fall it really gets me choked up it it is and I've shared this with people it's it's like I'm reading these words and I just can within the words visualize the Holy Spirit swirling around and doing that now 40 years or 35 whatever six years I whatever it is later I see he was working but as I was writing it I was not I didn't I mean there's so much I it was just faith of you know mustard seed or whatever I mean it was teeny. But now I look back and I'm like it is almost like I can visually see God just working.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:15

And I can't you can't argue with somebody's story and sure it it was a change I mean you know like yeah I mean I didn't yeah do everything right right away or make the best choices but um you know that's that's your journey like sure God He He takes us on a fun journey it's been fun.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:34

Yeah was it more of was it more of attraction than promotion? I love that phrase um it's not unique to me but um was it something you were attracted to in your then boyfriend?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:48

Oh Glenn was my boyfriend then yes and then we was it something like I like the way he handles things or or or was it you clearly I really it was like it was like a veil came off my eyes and and I was like as much as I could understand I was like oh like oh I never didn't believe in Jesus I heard Bible stories.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:13

We went to church on and off I did vacation Bible school but this was a real huh I mean not that moment but it was more I mean in I I didn't I wouldn't have put it this way then but it really in hindsight was more an attraction to Jesus that I that's all like that's it God does that that's him it's yeah he plucked you yes plucked you out of the world yes thank goodness it's awesome rescued me so what matters more to you now because of what you went through what matters give me some choices what matters more to me now uh relationships do you advocate for anything do you see like uh do you see the fragility of life and therefore you you leave your house differently with your own kids that stuck out to me with yours like I just thought dad was going to work so I re me personally I when somebody's going up in a plane there's always a different kind of risk right I'm older I didn't think like that back like 20 years ago I didn't think that way but ha after flying around the world and all that stuff there is more risk.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:27

Anything like that well I mean show up differently for you yeah I mean when I became a mom so I have two girls uh right away I mean they they they're they both love love the Lord they're both following Christ um but early on you know just gave them a biblical worldview but within that and they we talked about it just recently within that I always was sure to age appropriately let them know that if anything happened to me they would be okay they just need to press into the Lord they will be sad I will see them again it's a temporary separation I mean age appropriately they have always known my desire for eternity hope of heaven they've always known that that's the end game I mean it it is for every Tim Keller says there's a hundred percent of chance of death in every person's future so what are you gonna do with that? So I that definitely uh was something I always articulated to our girls in just a conversational way.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:34

Yeah did they ever say to you um mom if all that's true then why would they have why would God have blown up the space shuttle that day they usually like the way kids will frame something up and you can't they they never did they they never did I mean the school they were in the school where I first started the sharing and so they've always they've just they've known my story they've there's very you know there's stuff they don't know but uh but no they never um I mean my husband and I have really they have their own relationship with God but we've really tried to teach them you know through good churches and good community and us you know God's character who he is he can't change who he is um and so no they've never quite they've questioned other things sure in their own lives but yeah um if you're if your dad could see your life today what do you think he would say oh I think he'd just I mean I I can I I mean I think he'd say job well done Alison I mean I think he'd say you know like yeah I I he'd be proud of all three of us all he would I mean yeah I I don't think I ever um made choices because okay this is what dad would want me to do if anything I changed my decisions changed because he wasn't there saying hey I think you should do this.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:12

Um I mean he had me like going to the Naval Academy being he's like you could be the first lady blue angel I mean that was part of that in hindsight was money because astronauts don't make a lot of money I could go to the Naval Academy for free. But um, but you know, like I could, yeah, because nobody pays to go to the Naval Academy. I mean, that's a it's a free school, you know. Any of the service academies are are yeah, you actually 48 when I learned that. Really? Yes, yes, yes. Service academies, yeah, yeah. But uh Wow. Yeah, he would, I mean, gosh, he would love my husband. He would love our kids. He would love who my siblings marry, you know. Yeah, he he would be a happy. Um, but that wasn't the story. That wasn't the story. You know, it's it it's I I used to get caught up in the what-ifs and what-ifs and what, but you can't, any person who's had loss, it that's a normal response, but yeah, it doesn't go anywhere.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:09

Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:11

Anything that that I didn't ask that you would wanna probably there's a ton of things, but does any did you come in here hoping to talk about one thing and I didn't ask it, or I asked it differently?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:25

Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:26

Anything you'd want to share on a platform?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:28

Uh I mean, I think I've said it um I mean, turn your eyes to the Lord. Like it is a it is, I said that this is a fun journey.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:42

I mean, it's hard, it's not perfect, but it's it's something you can trust and that long obedience in one direction. I mean God God sanctifies us through whatever years he gives us, and um he does sanctify I that's a big word, but you know, he changes us. I don't want to be I don't want to be the same person at age 80 if I lived 80 that I was at age 40. And that's the fun journey. Yeah, you know, he gives us a huge range of do this, do this, do this, do this, learn this. It's fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:18

Fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:19

My story. One other thing comes to mind, and I'll I'll conclude here. So I I can't help but think there's tons. I don't know the number, we could probably find it, but uh young girls who lose their dad, whether they it's because of death or um incarceration, I don't know, the list is long. I'm curious did somebody step into your life as a father, like a father figure in the gap until because you did you say your mom remarried? Yes. Yes. So just speak to was there a gap in time, who filled it, did nobody fill it? Then when when your mom remarried, did that even fill that gap? How how did you grow up because you went a long time without a dad or a father? And again, I have the page, hey, the hey dad, can't we page? So yes, I'm helping dads with their sons, and now seeing this.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:20

That's a great question. I shout out to to my stepfather. I adore him, I love him. I talked to him just last week. Um, he knew my dad. I mean, he loves us kids. Uh, I mean, my dad is my dad. Uh I um, you know, mom didn't marry him until I was in college.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:41

I I don't want to sound cliche, but it if if if I'm speaking to young girls who lose their father, there is this is not cliche, this is truth. There is no better substitute than our heavenly father. He's the one who has, I've learned more from him than any man on this earth, even my own dad. Um, he's cared for me better than any person on this earth, even my own father. I just can't go wrong.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:08

I can't go wrong.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:10

Um following after him.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:13

What a what a message. That is the truth. Yeah. Wow. Wow. It's mind-boggling. So so don't look horizontally. Look vertically. Look vertically. Yeah. Wow. That was that was remarkable. See now why I I like to hold the questions.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:30

It some people insist though, they want to know that they don't want to be caught off guard, but you did tremendous.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:35

Great question. Thank you for coming here today. Loved it.