Tails of Truth: The Truth about Veterinary Medicine

The Hidden Risk in Your Cat's Vaccine

• Dr. Angie Krause, DVM CVA CCRT • Episode 3

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Summary

In this essential episode of Tails of Truth, Dr. Angie and JoJo Smith dive deep into a rarely discussed but critical topic: vaccine-associated sarcomas in cats. With raw personal stories and professional insight, they explore how certain feline vaccines—particularly rabies and leukemia—can, in rare cases, lead to aggressive cancer. They share why vaccine site matters, which types of vaccines pose higher risk, and how cat guardians can make informed, low-risk decisions. The episode also tackles clinic policy challenges, the role of adjuvants, and how to advocate for your cat’s health in a system that often skips the full conversation. If you vaccinate your cat—or ever will—this episode is a must-listen. 

Takeaways

  • Feline vaccine-related sarcomas are rare but serious.
  • Non-adjuvanted vaccines (like PureVax) reduce cancer risk.
  • Vaccine site matters—low on the leg or tail is preferred.
  • Not all cats need every vaccine—risk varies by lifestyle.
  • Rabies is crucial for outdoor cats but optional for some indoor cats.
  • Giving multiple vaccines at once can increase reaction risk.
  • Some clinics mandate rabies vaccines for legal protection, not health.
  • Most pet guardians aren’t informed of these risks.
  • Short appointments make informed consent difficult.
  • Asking the right questions can protect your cat’s long-term health

Please subscribe and review! xoxo Dr. Angie & JoJo


Dr. Angie (00:01)
Today, we are talking about the connection of a certain type of cancer in cats with vaccines. Now, people often want to know if vaccines cause cancer and most often we cannot correlate vaccines to cancer in cats or dogs except for this one exception. And it bothers me that this isn't

talked about more with veterinarians and their clients. So today we're going to talk about vaccine related sarcomas. They have a million different names and these cancers are relatively rare, but Jojo's cat suffered from a vaccine related sarcoma. And that was so sad. Tell me more about that Jojo.

JoJo Smith (00:45)
Yeah.

My kitty did. When I was in college, I had Scottish Folds, which I don't know if they're around anymore. I've never seen one in practice. So I always attributed the fact that she got cancer to her being purebred. But at that time, this is, do I want to admit this? I think it was 22 years ago, 22 years ago. She, indoor only kitty, but we still vaccinated.

We vaccinated for all the vaccines at once. So I believe we were doing leukemia, feline, rhinotracheitis, calicivirus, know, the five in one and rabies. And all of those were given mid-scruff, which is like right between the shoulder braids. And she developed a little nodule is how it started. And they're like, no big deal. It's just, you know, a site reaction. But it grew so fast.

and so rapidly. And my understanding of that cancer is it can be, it's got a lot of legs. It grows and grabs on and for a very lack of a better way to describe it. And because of the location of it, we weren't able to surgically remove it. And eventually it took, you know, it took her life. Yeah, yeah. And I know it's sad.

Dr. Angie (02:10)
⁓ it, and it's so hard. It's so sad because we're doing these things

to save our cat's life. We're trying to prevent rabies. We're trying to prevent leukemia and we've known for a long time that there is a correlation between vaccines. think it's more tied to rabies and feline leukemia.

but 20 years ago, will also own 20 years ago, I was in school and, ⁓ in veterinary school. And at that time we were taught that it was most likely the adjuvant. So the part of the vaccine that is causing the immune system, ⁓ to have a response. And so, ⁓ at the time, ⁓ Maryel created these vaccines.

without adjuvants. They're now owned by BI. And what are they called JoJo? They're called... I know this is a...

JoJo Smith (03:07)
I'm afraid you're gonna ask me that. It's like Boehringer

Ingelheim, something of that sort.

Dr. Angie (03:13)
God,

I wasn't trying to make you pronounce that. Okay. So we won't, we don't have to pronounce no, but what are the, so, so Meriel created these vaccines and they're called, ⁓ they have a name to the line of the non-adjuvanted feline vaccines.

JoJo Smith (03:17)
I thought you were going

⁓ yes. ⁓

isn't it funny when you put me on the spot how I don't know and I do know. Thank you Purevax you're right.

Dr. Angie (03:32)
Pure pure Vax. know pure Vax. Okay.

So they had a line of feline vaccines without adjuvants. So they created this technology and they had a one year rabies and a three year rabies and, ⁓ feline leukemia and the rhino tracheitis, all the respiratory viruses and panleukopenia. ⁓ and they sold it to BI, which no one wants to say.

I don't want to say that the full name. Totally. And, so now they are owned, ⁓ by them. so what's been interesting over time is that other vaccine manufacturers, other pharmaceutical companies have not adopted this technology. And I, I have some hearsay information, which is not trustable or valid, that

JoJo Smith (04:03)
I'm sure I butchered it.

Dr. Angie (04:29)
No one's been able to replicate these vaccines. And unfortunately, over the years, we've started to call them feline injection site sarcomas. And so now we're trying to say, well, it could be any injection. And that I have to say really makes me suspicious and it irritates me because other backs and other other injections like

forgiving sub-q fluids or forgiving an injectable antibiotic, we are still using the same space like in between the shoulder blades. ⁓ but for vaccines now we are vaccinating as low on the leg as possible so that if a kitty gets a vaccine related to our coma, I'm still calling them vaccine related to our comas. can amputate.

the leg. And I feel like this is so important. And when Jojo and I were making house calls, I would often say it to people out loud because I felt like it was important for people to understand that that's why we are now vaccinating. Like here, I'll point to my cat. Let's see. Right there. We're vaccinating right there. So that if that vaccine causes a sarcoma, we can save that cat's life by removing a leg.

JoJo Smith (05:47)
really low.

Dr. Angie (05:59)
And most people don't know this.

JoJo Smith (06:01)
But I think even that conversation, I watched people's response to that and just a surprise that they had no idea that it could be an issue. Like it had never been explained to them before. And the idea of amputating anything is so scary. So I think in that moment, vaccinating their cat becomes a very real procedure and not just a routine procedure.

Dr. Angie (06:18)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

JoJo Smith (06:29)
I also noticed my own, because my own sensitivity to it, I wanted to get so low on that leg. So I was so grateful when they came out with half mil vaccines, instead of a whole milliliter that we had to get into that little sub-q space.

Dr. Angie (06:36)
Yeah.

Right.

Yeah. Because the lower we go down on your cat's leg, the less space there is underneath that skin. So the nice part of being up here is that, here, here. my gosh. It's really hard to do this. there it is in the tail backwards. yeah. Thank you. ⁓ so there's so much space. It doesn't hurt.

JoJo Smith (06:58)
it's there, there. it's like pin the tail on the donkey. for those who can't see it, those who are listening, she's pointing to a cat on the wall.

Dr. Angie (07:12)
And now we're even vaccinating in tails because we can also amputate a tail. now like Jojo said, a lot of manufacturers are starting to make vaccines with less volume. So usually vaccines are one milliliter in volume and now they're a half milliliter, which makes it a lot easier for us to vaccinate.

JoJo Smith (07:34)
much easier. Yes, and the kitty because

most kitties are not real thrilled to have us doing this. And now we've, we have shrunk the space in which we can inject this, making it a little bit more complex. They often took three of us, like we would have to use you, myself and the cat guardian just to make this happen. It's become a whole thing.

Dr. Angie (07:41)
No way.

Yes!

I know. And well, when I was first out of school, I would vaccinate all my cats in the practice I was working at with 25 gauge needles, which is like really small. And I had this week where I had three vaccine reactions, like cats going home and being really sick. So I called the vaccine manufacturer, which I was using Marielle at the time. they were like, someone there, I don't know if it was the rep. I don't even know if it was a doctor, but they were like, Hey, stop using 25 gauge needles.

because when you're putting through like putting the actual proteins through the needle, it's too much at a high velocity. And so maybe you're making things more reactive. ⁓ I've since loosened up on that. Now that I'm doing relief, there are a lot of practices that are doing 25 gauge and I'm like, well, I'll go with it. And so far it's knock on wood. It's been okay, but it really like the lower we, we get on the leg, the harder it is, the harder it is to do.

JoJo Smith (08:56)
And remind me,

we did a tail one. Did we do a tail injection in practice? Only once.

Dr. Angie (09:01)
Yes. Yeah.

Only once. And it feels gross because you're touching the bone with your needle. And there are not too many times I really want to be touching bone with my needle. ⁓ and so I, although I have to say, I don't know that the cats mind them that much. I think I minded it. Have you done it on the tail before? Have you?

JoJo Smith (09:10)
Mm-hmm.

I had not,

had, watched, this is how I learned that was watching videos, right? Because we did not learn that in school. And I remember telling you, you're gonna do this one. This one's on you. Let me see you do it first and then I'll try. But honestly, I think it would be just as difficult or as easy as doing the lower leg.

Dr. Angie (09:48)
And every cat's tail is so different. there's, know, anatomy, like, you know, how much skin they have, how much subcutaneous fat they have, it all is, is pretty different. But I think it's really important for people to understand that there is a risk in vaccinating your cat and that there is a type of vaccine out there that lowers that risk, whether anybody wants to admit it or not. It must lower.

⁓ the risk I do, I have some sensitivity as to why, ⁓ the American association of feline practitioners aren't recommending only non-adjuvanted vaccines for cats. seems crazy to me. And so I don't have any proof, but it, I don't, think that there's money and pharmaceutical, the pharmaceutical industry behind this. And I'm not against the pharmaceutical industry, but

This just something doesn't quite line up for me. And, ⁓ I think if you are vaccinating your cat, you want to make sure one that your cat needs that vaccine and two that it's going low on the leg and three that you're using the non-adjuvanted vaccine, because if it lowers the risk of your cat getting this sarcoma, which is very aggressive and

That's why Jojo's kitty, like there's nothing they could do because they can't surgically remove it in the, in the scruff because this type of sarcoma, like Jojo said, grows fingers and it's so invasive into the tissue that there's no way, ⁓ to kind of peel it out. And it grows so quickly.

JoJo Smith (11:34)
Yeah, I didn't want to do that again. So if I go backwards in time, the mistakes that were made. if we could educate the next cat guardian, one was giving all the vaccines at once. So we have no idea what kind of reaction, which one she was having a reaction to. Whereas if we had pieced them out, and the way we do it in practice is we space them out by two weeks minimum. So one injection, two weeks later, we can give the next.

Dr. Angie (11:59)
Mm-hmm.

JoJo Smith (12:03)
which allows us to know, like, if there's a reaction, we know exactly what that kitty reacted to. Plus, I'm sure it was so hard on her system, having all of those vaccines introduced at once. The location would do that differently. And evaluating what was necessary, given that she was indoor with, living in Los Angeles at the time, she was having no risk. We weren't having bats in the middle of the city.

Dr. Angie (12:19)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Right. And she definitely didn't, she didn't need feline leukemia if she was inside. Yeah. I know.

JoJo Smith (12:32)
So really hiding that dialogue.

⁓ not ever. Like we weren't introducing

new cats. I think the reason I did do leukemia is because I was in school and engaging with a lot of other cats. So there was always the fear like, what am I bringing home? And I know that that's not, you know, just a lot of not knowing, a lot of fear based.

Dr. Angie (12:57)
⁓ yes. Well, and I think it's really important of like, okay, taking the disease, knowing if your cat is even susceptible to it. Feline leukemia is a little bit harder to get that you have to, cats have to be together. ⁓ you know, they can be, they can get it from their mother or they have to be in a lot of close contact. And so the more we find out about the transmission of feline leukemia, ⁓ the more it irritates me, how often I see clinics.

Just giving it because just in case, and I just think, Ooh, I don't think so. Now we've definitely in our practice, seen a lot of really good reasons to give feline leukemia, like a cat that's outside and super social with other cats. That makes sense. Like if they're buddying up to other cats that are outside, that cat is an excellent candidate. Or, ⁓ we've had clients that foster kittens in their home with their other.

JoJo Smith (13:42)
now.

Dr. Angie (13:57)
I think that's an excellent time to use the feline leukemia vaccine. ⁓ but other than that, I just, I don't see a lot of use for cats that are in a closed system that aren't getting out. think it's, I just don't think it's good. Now I'm a huge proponent of vaccinating for rabies, especially cats that are going outside cats that are going to be around open water sources.

Here, in the front range, have bats that have rabies skunks. And so if your cat's outside, risk of rabies far outweighs the risk of that vaccine related sarcoma. ⁓ and so I want you, everyone to understand that you should absolutely vaccinate your cat for rabies low on the leg and with pure backs in my opinion. And so I think it's these conversations that

aren't being had. And now that I'm, I'm, I'm back out in a lot of different hospitals and private practice, there's not enough time. And so we have nurses going into rooms and saying, here's what we have. Here's what we recommend. Yes or no. And either there's a lot of guilt. so people get really defensive about like, if they don't want to vaccinate that conversations really difficult because I think they feel so judged. ⁓ they've

JoJo Smith (15:20)
Which is a whole

conversation. Well, let's go further into that if you don't mind. in terms of we also run into the issue with our clients who have indoor only kitties who we've maybe not recommended rabies for because they have such a low risk of exposure, but they cannot get care in a brick and mortar clinic without they mandate a rabies vaccine to be seen for routine care.

Dr. Angie (15:23)
Yeah, and so I think.

Right.

JoJo Smith (15:48)
So

Dr. Angie (15:48)
Right.

JoJo Smith (15:49)
that is an issue and I wonder.

wonder what the reason for that is, it's, maybe you have a better scope on why clinics would make that mandatory.

Dr. Angie (16:02)
Yeah. So I think clinics are making that mandatory because on the other side of that, so if that cat comes in and bites, which I mean happens, I feel like cats maybe bite a little bit more than dogs. Is that safe to say?

JoJo Smith (16:18)
I,

I, well, I'm like, yeah, let's talk about like, is it chihuahuas or is it what are we talking about?

Dr. Angie (16:21)
It depends on the dog. Right.

And so if we have that, ⁓ that bite, then like someone's bit a nurse, a doctor, you know, a client service representative, someone takes a bite, then it becomes reportable. And then, you know, once it gets reported, if it gets reported, then, you know, we want to know, that animal have a rabies vaccine? So it becomes.

this nightmare for, ⁓ the staff in the clinic and for the hospital manager. so I think most clinics are recommending it or mandating it because it just makes, so then that bite happens. And if it's not that bad, then everyone kind of goes on about their day. Katie doesn't need to go home and get, you know, quarantined. It's just, everything gets easier. So I think that's why.

they're recommending that and why they're mandating it.

JoJo Smith (17:20)
Which is understandable.

can understand, I can understand, again, here I am. I can understand both sides of this. can, having been bit by a can certainly understand that. But I wish there was a different way. if that cat, can we titer? Can we, I mean, are there other options that we can do? And we've seen them, they put them on quarantine at home before.

Dr. Angie (17:27)
Totally.

I know.

Yes. Yeah, we've definitely

seen that.

JoJo Smith (17:48)
The

chance that that cat has rabies is so low, so low. But that's fear piece, right? Because you're going to vaccinate for rabies if you are fearful that they're going to put your cat down if your cat bites.

Dr. Angie (17:52)
I know, and what's interesting.

100%. Yes. And what I have seen in the state of Colorado and what I've seen in the counties around Denver is that if I were to call and say, like, remember we had a client, I won't name any names who told me, Hey, I've been feeding this feral cat and it bit me. And I was like, ⁓ like I was terrified. So I called.

And I reported it because as a public health officer, like I absolutely have to do that. So I called, Boulder County and I was like, I just want you to know this has happened. And they're like, I mean, if we don't care. And, ⁓ you know, cause I thought maybe they'd want to go trap the cat quarantine something, some kind of followup. ⁓ and I really wanted if our client needed post exposure. ⁓ so basically you get.

bitten by an animal and we're not sure if it has rabies or it doesn't have rabies. You can get post exposure vaccines to rabies so that you don't die. takes a long time to develop rabies. And so if you were exposed, we can absolutely prevent your death. And so I, in my mind, I'm like, okay, I'm preventing this person's death just in case. And the Boulder County just was kind of like, you know, we really assess cats to be low risk to carry rabies. And.

So it gets to be really, really confusing. And I'm not saying that Boulder County made the wrong call. They just maybe don't have the resources or didn't feel like they needed to go do something about it. so. Yeah.

JoJo Smith (19:42)
Well, and that's the nuance of it, right? I think every

time you are evaluating whether or not to vaccinate your cat for rabies, it's going to be a different dialogue at every stage of life. It's not a one-time decision. And you can change your mind at any point.

Dr. Angie (19:58)
That's so important.

Yes. Well, it can change from month to month, year to year, your situation, your living situation, what other animals are coming in and out? Are there children? you like, it's nuanced. And I understand why clinics have these kind of blanketed vaccine policies. ⁓ but one thing I've really loved about our practice is that we get to have all those nuanced conversations and then we get to let people, ⁓

decide how they want to vaccinate. Yeah.

JoJo Smith (20:29)
Right? Yeah, there's so much that

goes into play. own risk tolerance plays a role. Like, that's not something that you have room to have dialogue about in most practices. And here's where I go on my limb of like, here's my theory around this is, mean, vaccines are moneymakers in terms of it gets you into the clinic, right? So if you're coming in every year for this, it's an easy, not that that's

Dr. Angie (20:36)
Yes.

Yes.

JoJo Smith (20:59)
why we are administering vaccines, but it definitely gets people into the clinic, which is important. That's an important piece. Without the vaccines, people may not consider bringing their pet in until they're sick. So you might miss out on those wellness exams.

Dr. Angie (21:05)
Yes.

Totally. I worked for a practice when I was first out of school and they did for dogs to stem for parvo. They did it every year. And I kept telling them like, I'm like, listen, we don't need to do this. I'm a new grad. know everything. And now the guidelines are every three years. And I think that this is malpractice and the practitioners were much, much older than me and had been practicing for as long as I had been alive. And they said, yes, I hear you.

But when people get that vaccine reminder, they think, okay, I am going to equate being a good steward of this animal to keeping them up to date on vaccines. And so there's this whole culture of like, yes, my dog or cat is up to date. They're good. And the veterinarian said to me, he's like, this is how I can catch the lump. This is how I can get, you know, tell them that their pet has painful dental disease.

And it was, it was eye opening for me to kind of get the other side of like, yeah, it is a moneymaker, but it's also a way people want to comply. And we can get people into the clinic for the other care that they might not even know their pet needs.

JoJo Smith (22:26)
Mm-hmm.

especially cat people, particularly cat people, especially indoor cat people.

Dr. Angie (22:34)
especially

I

know cause cats don't get enough veterinary care because it's so hard to get them into the clinic. Sometimes it doesn't go well. No one likes the sounds their cat is making on the way to the clinic and the carrier. Maybe they've peed in the carrier. Maybe they've hid under the bed for like 30 minutes before once the carrier came out. Like we could do a whole episode on, on this.

JoJo Smith (22:41)
They don't.

I'm going to write that book. I have another question

for you while we're still on this topic. What is your perspective or your thought on knowing that Meriel makes a non-adjuvanted vaccine? Why would not every clinic carry that vaccine? What would their reasoning be for not having that brand?

Dr. Angie (23:28)
This is so good. Well, it's BI now because Maryel, does Maryel even exist? Yeah. Yeah. BI, BI bought Maryel, but yeah, why doesn't every clinic, most clinics don't carry it. I will tell you as a relief that I would say most don't, ⁓ because it's expensive and it's not that they're necessarily like, ⁓ we can create, you know, increase our own profit margin, but these PureVax.

JoJo Smith (23:31)
I'm so sorry. Yes, it is BI.

Hmm.

Dr. Angie (23:54)
the PureVax line is more expensive because the technology is, you know, more expensive. And so people don't want to pay for that. so at the end of the day, as public health officers, veterinarians are like, well, I want, I want my patients to be vaccinated. so, however I can make that easiest for the pet parent, that's what I'm going to do, which is a bummer.

JoJo Smith (24:18)
That is a bummer. when I hear as we wrap this up as a cat guardian, if you are a cat guardian, the questions you should be asking are where are you administering the vaccine? Which vaccines does my cat really need based on our lifestyle and risk? And what vaccine manufacturer you're using? Like those would be good questions. Am I missing any?

Dr. Angie (24:47)
No, I think that's right. Yeah. Make sure your cat needs it. And if we're talking about vaccine related sarcomas, so there is a three year rabies vaccine and a one year. Now, when you first start your cat out on the series, no matter what you give them, it's only licensed for one year. That's how it is in Colorado. I'm sure that's how it is in most States, to be honest. So that first time you give your cat a rabies vaccine is only going to be licensed for a year. But after that.

Get the three years. So you're doing less actual injections, actual moments where you're injecting a vaccine into your cat. So I recommend people doing the three year whenever possible.

JoJo Smith (25:27)
Is the three year

more, are they getting a larger dose if they're getting a three year over one year? And that would still be your recommendation.

Dr. Angie (25:34)
Yes. Yes. They,

I think so. Yes. That's, that's what I finally did. And that's what I settled on for my kiddies is that I'd rather have that then do it every year. And it's so much easier for everybody involved. Yeah.

JoJo Smith (25:51)
I think your cat would too. Prefer just to, and if you, yeah, especially,

⁓ and try to really make sure they only give one vaccine per visit. Which that can be, that's a challenge though too, if you're going into clinic and you have a cat that does not enjoy that.

Dr. Angie (26:02)
and

I know

I, there are some times where I like, I think just, but so they do it in separate sites. So they do usually rabies on the right rear and then FERCP on the left rear. they usually like, and so if you have to do them, just make sure that they're putting them on different sites, which most clinics these days are. ⁓ but I do like to, I like to space things out.

JoJo Smith (26:16)
Okay.

Dr. Angie (26:33)
I'm sensitive. like to keep, you know, I assume that my patients are sensitive, which maybe sometimes isn't the best, but if we can space them out, do. And especially if you're giving your cat F ERCP and rabies and they're every three years, I'll try to stagger the year if I can, ⁓ or like stagger it by six months or something like that. But it really depends on your kitty.

JoJo Smith (26:55)
I know,

and only vaccinate healthy kitties. Not on a sick visit, ideally.

Dr. Angie (26:59)
And only vaccine. Yes.

Those vaccines are labeled for animals that are healthy. We, we study them in animals that are healthy. And so when we vaccinate sick animals, then we just, we don't really know if they're getting a good immune response. Their body's busy doing other things. ⁓ there are a few times where I would do it, but it's very, very rare.

JoJo Smith (27:24)
I keep thinking of things that I'm like, gosh, and not too young and not too early.

Dr. Angie (27:25)
Anything else?

I know, I know we should

do more episodes on just vaccines in general and how to help people decide. But I think for cats, you know, you just want to make sure you're doing the vaccines that your kitty needs, that they're doing a low on the leg. And I mean, hopefully they're using BI vaccines, but, ⁓ if not, make sure they're doing it low on the leg. You know, the odds of your kitty getting a vaccine related to our coma are very low.

But that doesn't matter when it's your cat. No one feels better when I tell them, this is really rare. I'm sorry it's happening to you. It doesn't matter. And so.

JoJo Smith (28:10)
Right, because once it happens to you, you wish you would have had the knowledge so you can do better. So I hope that's what this episode does is just provide the knowledge.

Dr. Angie (28:13)
once it happens to you.

Yes.

Yes.

JoJo Smith (28:23)
because we don't know what we don't know.

Dr. Angie (28:26)
We don't know and veterinarians just don't have time and veterinary nurses don't have time to go over all of these things. And I think most pet parents don't want to know these things. Now, if you're listening to us or watching us right now, you're not one of those, but I think most people just want to, you know, tell me what to do. I need to move on with my day. I need to get back for a meeting and let's move on. But if you want to be conscious about what you're doing and you want to know the truth behind

why we're doing what we're doing. This is it. I would love to hear your story about how you vaccinate your cat. So you can leave a comment below this post or you can find us on social media. We're at Boulder Holistic Vet on Instagram and Natural Cat Vet. You can find us either place. Thank you so much for listening. Jojo, before we go, is there anything else we should mention?

JoJo Smith (29:23)
No, I just think this was such an important conversation. I'm glad we had it.

Dr. Angie (29:27)
Yeah, thanks so much for hanging out. I always love it.

See how do I stop it? There it is.