Tails of Truth: The Truth about Veterinary Medicine

The Rise of Mid-Level Practitioners in Veterinary Medicine: Concerns & Consequences

• Dr. Angie Krause, DVM CVA CCRT • Episode 19

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đź“– Summary

In this episode of Tails of Truth, Dr. Angie and JoJo dive into Colorado’s Proposition 129, which introduces the Veterinary Professional Associate (VPA)—also called mid-level practitioners. They unpack what this new role means for veterinarians, veterinary nurses, and pet parents, and share concerns about the adequacy of training, increased liability, and corporate influence in veterinary medicine. With real talk and candid reflections, they emphasize why pet parents must ask more questions than ever about who is providing care for their animals. This conversation highlights both the challenges and the unknowns ahead as Colorado becomes the testing ground for a controversial shift in veterinary care.

Learn more about the VPA program launching at CSU here. 

đź“Ś Key Takeaways

  • Proposition 129 introduces mid-level practitioners (VPAs) into veterinary care in Colorado.
  • VPAs will have significantly less training than veterinarians but may still perform surgeries.
  • Veterinary nurses fear being sidelined, further straining an already burned-out workforce.
  • Corporate veterinary practices may benefit more than small, independent clinics.
  • Pet parents must advocate for their animals by asking who is overseeing their pet’s care.
  • Liability concerns for veterinarians will likely increase with VPAs practicing under their licenses.
  • The curriculum raises red flags with heavy online coursework and limited hands-on training.
  • The veterinary profession is already in crisis, and this law does not address root problems.
  • Other states may use Colorado as a case study before adopting (or rejecting) similar laws.
  • The future of veterinary care may look drastically different as these roles are implemented.

🎧 Sound Bites

“No one’s happy about it.” ~Dr. Angie~

“I don’t want someone else to spay a dog or a cat under my license. I’m so uncomfortable with that.” ~Dr. Angie~

“As a veterinary nurse, I feel underutilized in my role. And this makes it worse.” ~JoJo~

“Instead of elevating veterinary nurses, this just left them behind.” ~Dr. Angie~

“Maybe it will benefit rural clinics… but right now, I’m concerned for pet parents.” ~JoJo~

Please subscribe and review! xoxo Dr. Angie & JoJo


Dr. Angie (00:01.134)
Welcome to this week's episode. We are going to be talking about proposition 129 in Colorado that passed this last November, about the veterinary professional. What does VPA even stand for? Veterinary associate.

JoJo Smith (00:15.018)
Veterinary Professional Associate, but they're also calling it an MLP, mid-level practitioner. Yeah.

Dr. Angie (00:20.666)
practitioner. Okay. And no one's happy about it. It's changing. Hmm. The corporate people are happy. I think what's so surprising about proposition 129 is that I was not aware of it even being on the ballot till about August. I don't know. I don't know how it got there. well, I know now, but at the time I didn't know how it got there.

JoJo Smith (00:28.056)
people are happy. Some people are happy.

Dr. Angie (00:50.818)
And then no one really started caring about it until like two or three weeks before the election. And by that time it was too late because a lot of people had already cast their, their vote. And it looked so reasonable to the average pet guardian in Colorado. So basically they're saying, Hey, do you want veterinary care to be more accessible and cheaper? And

You know, for people that love their nurse practitioner or, you know, their, physician's assistant, seems like a reasonable thing because it's kind of, it was advertised as the.

Dr. Angie (01:31.746)
what the it was correlative to that. What's the word I'm looking for?

JoJo Smith (01:34.572)
Yes. and I love my nurse practitioner. Right? I have good feelings about that.

Dr. Angie (01:38.2)
I know they're so much better because they care about you more. Or I think they do.

JoJo Smith (01:44.804)
Hmm

Dr. Angie (01:46.412)
So this mid-level practitioner, no one in veterinary medicine, I worked at one clinic, I did some relief work at one clinic that was a low-cost clinic and they were excited about it. But other than that, there's no veterinarian that I've ever spoken to that's excited about this because this practitioner, this mid-level practitioner is going to go to school for what, two years? Or how many semesters? Five semesters. I know what that means.

JoJo Smith (02:10.56)
semesters. For a master's, so their undergrad does not have to be in anything science-based.

Dr. Angie (02:19.318)
Okay. And then they go to school for five semesters and then they can come into practice and they're practicing under our license, under the veterinarian's license, and they can do really anything, right? Is there anything they can't do?

JoJo Smith (02:31.828)
Almost, yeah. I don't think they can write prescriptions, which then that's a bigger headache for you. Yeah, I don't think they can write or dispense medications. They can dispense medications only if the veterinarian has written that prescription before, but they can't write a new prescription.

Dr. Angie (02:40.729)
Yeah.

Dr. Angie (02:50.2)
Okay.

Dr. Angie (02:57.754)
okay. I'm looking at, I printed off the information I could get at CSU, but they can do surgery. And these practitioners are going to be doing surgeries I would never want to do. I mean, 17 years out of school, I still don't want to do a spay of a, you know, a big dog that's just been in heat.

JoJo Smith (03:06.808)
they can do surgery.

JoJo Smith (03:12.376)
You

JoJo Smith (03:19.79)
Well, it's under this umbrella of routine or relatively easy, easy, that's in quotations for those that are listening, but there is nothing routine about any surgery. I don't know how many surgeries you've been in that's supposed to be routine. That quickly turns into something more.

Dr. Angie (03:47.508)
totally. Well, I think for, you know, pet parents out there, a spay is a hysterectomy. And for people that's major surgery, major abdominal surgery. And things can definitely go wrong in spays. Less often in neuters, but things can happen. And I, I don't want someone else to spay a dog or a cat under my license. I'm so uncomfortable with that. I sometimes don't want to do that under my own license.

And I think they can even take out spleens. And this was just hearsay. think all of this is coming together. And like Colorado always is, we're like the first ones to do it. We were the first ones to legalize pot, and now we're the first ones to ruin veterinary medicine too.

JoJo Smith (04:27.14)
Sure, to our benefit and to our demise.

JoJo Smith (04:33.752)
Right, which, I mean, I guess we can be the golden child for what not to do. I have a feeling that a lot of states will let us try it out. It's what's gonna happen.

Dr. Angie (04:44.216)
And they won't pass it. Hopefully. Yeah. They'll watch us and we can be the cautionary tale. And so in, within veterinary medicine, this is such a problem because we're, we're in crisis already. And I think this was meant to help our crisis, but it didn't actually solve any problems. So right now we have a nurse shortage and in veterinary medicine, call nurses. Veterinary technicians, which I think does.

them such a disservice. then we can, that can be a whole, that's a whole nother episode. but veterinary nurses, and that's what I'm going to continue to label them as they don't really have anywhere to go. so veterinary nurses can make up to what? $25 an hour. think.

JoJo Smith (05:15.968)
A whole episode. Yeah, that's a whole episode.

JoJo Smith (05:31.064)
Yeah, in specialty.

Dr. Angie (05:33.762)
In specialty. Yes. And, these are the nurses that are anesthetizing your pet, providing them treatments. you know, they're doing a lot of really high level and advanced skills required kind of activities. And so I, there's such a problem because there's burnout. No one can actually be a veterinary nurse in a clinic, make a livable wage.

not get burned out. Like there's nowhere to go for them. And so it's not sustainable. then veterinarians also don't make enough money, but we can make a living wage. we're usually overworked and slightly or moderately underpaid. And so there's a lot of burnout, with, for both. but there's really nowhere for nurses to go. And so what this has done now is it's

made the problem with nurses even bigger because I suspect they'll bring in these mid-level practitioners and not even have certified nurses. Right? Can you?

JoJo Smith (06:42.916)
No, like that's the rub for me. You tell me how this feels for you. But it does feel as a veterinary nurse being edged out in a sense or being expected to go back for some schooling with knowledge that many of us already have. So it's like, did you take on that debt load to still make $25 an hour? But I also think it in some way that's going to edge the veterinarian out too.

Dr. Angie (06:53.817)
Yeah.

Dr. Angie (07:01.924)
Mm-hmm.

JoJo Smith (07:12.834)
Because why are you going to go for your degree and that level of debt and that level of responsibility for this mid-level practitioner to come in, which is really, in my opinion, going to put so much more work on your plate.

Dr. Angie (07:13.039)
Yes.

JoJo Smith (07:31.948)
not less work, more work, because now you have to write the prescriptions, like they're gonna be able to see more patients, that's true. I think that from a customer's perspective or a pet parent's perspective, their pet may get seen easier, quicker, but on the back end of that, that veterinarian now has a larger caseload.

Dr. Angie (07:32.075)
So then I know like, yeah.

Dr. Angie (07:56.066)
Right. So on an, in an average day at a clinic that I can have enough time, I will see about 15 appointments a day, sometimes closer to 20 in high volume, low cost. I'll see closer to 25. And so I can't imagine then at the end of the day, how many more records I'm going to be wrapping up. And it's very difficult to keep up with records. even. yeah.

JoJo Smith (08:22.904)
or what prescriptions need to be written or input you need to put throughout the day for where they don't have the experience yet or stepping into the surgery that you know that spay that no she was in heat you know or no she was pregnant like that I mean those things happen

Dr. Angie (08:36.739)
Right.

Dr. Angie (08:43.672)
And then the cost of it. So if this person, this mid-level practitioner is going to maybe, you know, get into trouble and maybe they handle a case incorrectly or God forbid something goes wrong during surgery, that's going to be under my liability insurance. And so then I guess the...

AVMA and the liability insurance, that's who I get my liability insurance through PLIT, they're going to then probably charge me based off of how many mid-level practitioners work under me. Like, how is that going to work? How are they?

JoJo Smith (09:23.96)
Well, I think a statement on their website, I believe about that specifically, I had it pulled up earlier, about because the spays and the neuters are where a good portion of their malpractice comes from. Yeah. I mean, that's a real thing. if your fees go up, I can't see how your pay goes up.

Dr. Angie (09:26.823)
they do.

Dr. Angie (09:30.85)
The PLAT does.

JoJo Smith (09:50.638)
because they have to pay that mid-level who now is a masters, which I'm thinking if you have your masters you probably want to make a minimum of 100k.

Which I don't know. I don't know if that's even practical. I wonder what they're offering, what the expectation is for pay. Cut me off, this butt.

Dr. Angie (10:04.216)
I mean, it should be.

Dr. Angie (10:08.42)
Right. I had someone tell me that they thought that I think it was a veterinarian that used to work in, shelter medicine. And it was her opinion that she thought that it would only be Banfield's at first. Because in, so in three years, if they start this program now in three years, they'll spit out, think like 20, they're going to take 20 in the first class. And they thought it would be exclusively at Banfield. And so they have more corporate funds.

And they will force veterinarians coming out of school because usually Banfield recruits right out of school.

JoJo Smith (10:41.668)
Okay, okay, I'm like, what do I say? What do I not say right now? Okay, when I hear that in the corporate piece of it, one I'm like, okay, well, are they paying off? What's the agreement? Are they paying off some debt? What are they? What? Because I have found that these corporate organizations are some of the lowest paying organizations.

Dr. Angie (10:47.394)
No, say whatever. We say whatever here.

Dr. Angie (11:06.998)
yeah.

JoJo Smith (11:07.084)
When I sifting through the roles, it's more small practice, solo practice, practitioners like you that are paying their people better than the corporations that have the funds. So there's just, I just get a bad feeling when I hear that because that will set the bar of what everything else looks like.

Dr. Angie (11:18.105)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Angie (11:25.048)
Yeah.

Dr. Angie (11:33.048)
Yes. Well, I think what the big corporations can offer is the signing bonus. And so they do the signing bonus and they recruit you on for three years or, you know, and it's, I think they're good signing bonuses. I've never worked for a corporate clinic. but I mean, I, out of school, I was recruited really aggressively by Banfield. I still get, they still try to recruit me.

JoJo Smith (11:38.996)
Mm-hmm. They do do that.

Dr. Angie (11:59.51)
And so they have big signing bonuses. so I wonder if, and they have benefits and that's one nice thing. So they don't, so they're maybe the hourly rate isn't as good, but they do have better benefits for sure. But I think that that's how they'll get veterinarians to agree to this, because I just don't know a veterinarian in the Denver Metro that's going to say, yeah, this is fine. I like this.

JoJo Smith (12:03.574)
and benefits. That's something corporate.

JoJo Smith (12:24.45)
Well, my fear is that we're going to have an exodus. I'm actually really worried about this. Because when I say they're going to edge out for the veterinary nurse, and I don't know about other veterinary nurses, but for me, when I'm reading what the tasks are, I'm thinking, wait, that's my task. Like dentistry. That's that's my task. Monitoring anesthesia. That's my task.

Dr. Angie (12:47.073)
Like what? Like what?

Dr. Angie (12:51.441)
so they're gonna be doing... they're gonna be doing that now?

JoJo Smith (12:55.524)
that on their list of things that they're learning. And yeah, some of their, so I'm like, wait, so where am I going? Am I just going back to restraining? Because that's not interesting.

Dr. Angie (13:09.594)
Well, that's where I think they're just going to have these mid-level practitioners. They don't have to pay very much. They're going to have veterinary assistance. So not certified nurses. And then they're going to have like one veterinarian, a miserable veterinarian, and then they're going to have like five mid-level practitioners.

JoJo Smith (13:25.751)
Yeah

JoJo Smith (13:29.796)
Well, you already have miserable veterinary nurses because they're underutilized. So many of us, like, I mean, some of the states I've worked in were not even allowed to give a rabies vaccine. But then in another state you can. So it's just, there's a lot of ways in which we already feel underutilized.

Dr. Angie (13:34.902)
everywhere.

Dr. Angie (13:40.939)
Right. Yeah.

Dr. Angie (13:50.202)
Well, most nurses aren't happy because they're not making enough money and the job is hard. you know, even in a hospital setting or in human medicine, have nurses and then you have medical assistance and then you have, you know, there are people that clean the rooms and you know, you have a lot of staff and veterinary nurses are all of those. Like

you're filling prescriptions and cleaning up a mess and, you know, taking x-rays. So you're, you know, in radiology and you're, you know, you're the dental hygienist and like all of it. And so I think that most hospitals that I go to have some level of burnout. It's very rare that I go to a hospital where the nurses are happy and it's, I've never been there.

JoJo Smith (14:27.082)
surgery.

JoJo Smith (14:37.922)
Dr. Angie (14:43.854)
There's always someone that's unhappy because they've been around for a while and they're tired.

JoJo Smith (14:47.844)
Well, how many nurses have you met my age? There's just not. There's not, that's why there's just have to, yeah, so I am concerned. I have concerns on so many levels for the pet parent who doesn't really know, like there's gonna have to be new questions they ask when they're coming in for procedures to vet who they want doing the procedures. Like a new level of advocacy they're gonna have to do for themselves.

Dr. Angie (14:51.182)
There's not.

Dr. Angie (15:00.409)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Angie (15:12.73)
Yeah, so what do you think pet parents can do in Colorado in three years time? What do you think the move is for them?

JoJo Smith (15:20.292)
Well, I think some of it's the same that it has been in terms of how we really advocate pet parents. If you're going to take your pet in for surgery, what questions are you asking about? Who's monitoring? What certifications? I think they're going to have to ask that just to have another practitioner. Like, who is overseeing my patient? Who's overseeing my pet's care? Who is the person I'm contacting when my pet has an emergency? Like, who is that person now?

Dr. Angie (15:31.322)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Angie (15:38.414)
Yeah.

Dr. Angie (15:49.86)
And if it's a VPA, do they just go to a different clinic?

JoJo Smith (15:56.28)
Well, the truth is they're gonna be seen quicker. That is truth. So they're gonna have to weigh what is most aligned for their needs. I don't know. I wish I could advocate pet parents to ask all the questions. How are your employees being treated? What is? Yeah, I don't know. Do you have an opinion? What do you think they should be asking?

Dr. Angie (16:04.324)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Angie (16:14.874)
Totally. Yeah. That's how you and I refer.

I mean, I, this might feel, there's something that feels a little immature about it, but there's part of me that's like, don't go to them. Boycott them. And it's not their fault. They're going to be the most hated professional coming in.

JoJo Smith (16:34.296)
Yeah, but it's not their fault, right?

JoJo Smith (16:41.021)
Ugh, it's gonna be so rough.

Dr. Angie (16:43.492)
So if you're thinking about applying for this program, don't. If you're hearing this and you're thinking maybe I should do this, I don't think you should. Because I

JoJo Smith (16:50.872)
think it's gonna be so stressful for them too because I think what I'm reading is this what I'm reading is the curriculum proposed by CSU and for fourth semester is when they finally get into a lab in person first three semesters are completely online. Forth semester they get physical exams and routine care

Dr. Angie (17:09.722)
How can you do anatomy online?

JoJo Smith (17:18.646)
anesthesia lab, diagnostic lab, clinical skills lab, communications lab, surgical skill lab, dentistry lab.

JoJo Smith (17:28.004)
And then their fifth semester they get to do an internship. And from what I'm reading, a lot of this is large animals, small animal. It's not like, so I'm like, okay, let me think back to my, like I like to say, I went to school on a farm. So I had a full semester of large animal, but everything that I still remember to this day is because I did it, like it was deworming the cow, like not reading it in a book. was birthing. It was, you know,

Dr. Angie (17:36.501)
yeah.

JoJo Smith (17:57.336)
to briding the nasty wounds that sheep get. But all of that stuck because I actually hands on did it.

Dr. Angie (18:01.581)
Right.

Dr. Angie (18:07.62)
Yeah.

JoJo Smith (18:08.356)
If I read it in a book, I'd be like, whatever, I don't remember.

Dr. Angie (18:11.758)
I mean, in vet school, we did have the first years, there was a lot of coursework, but we were always touching animals too. And we learned anatomy with cadavers of all kinds. But is it in person?

JoJo Smith (18:24.812)
Yeah, they do have anatomy.

It's no online they have clinical anatomy. Yeah, anatomy came to me from dissecting cats like true if we're telling truth like I still don't like to eat chicken after that like you know because there's like something about hands on doing that. Yeah.

Dr. Angie (18:35.258)
Yeah.

Dr. Angie (18:39.994)
Yeah!

Dr. Angie (18:44.504)
Right. Which is important especially if you're going to be doing surgery.

JoJo Smith (18:48.516)
Well, and it's a two credit class, clinical anatomy.

Dr. Angie (18:53.602)
Why, what do mean it's just clinical anatomy? What does that mean? We're only learning anatomy.

JoJo Smith (18:56.522)
I don't know what that, that's what I wanted to know. What does that mean? What's clinical anatomy?

Dr. Angie (19:01.476)
to screen.

I'm a little disturbed that the first, has mathematics, five credits, college algebra.

JoJo Smith (19:11.716)
I thought that too, but that's your pre-reqs to get into the program. Yeah, because I first read that too and I'm like, what? I'm really worried. I saw that too and I had a moment where I had to take a breath. I was like, wait, my kids qualify for this? What's happening?

Dr. Angie (19:15.182)
that's a progress. Okay, good. Okay. Let me put that. I was like, wait, what?

Dr. Angie (19:24.886)
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So clinical anatomy, was two credits. That's rough. Principles of radiology and ultrasound, two credits. Infectious pathogens and parasite. I mean, I just, I think of all the schooling and that I did, and I just think, and so now I have a lot, I mean, there are a lot of veterinarians that I've spoken to that just feel.

so slighted by this.

JoJo Smith (19:56.302)
so slighted. That's that's justified. And I don't I don't shame or wish any ill on anybody who wants to take this. It's so appealing and interesting. But I even found it. And there's some shame I have around this next piece, but I have some

Dr. Angie (19:59.95)
Yeah, just like, wait, why did we do all that?

JoJo Smith (20:16.932)
Okay, so they are aiming it toward veterinary technicians who want to take this, that's how they are putting it in this box or selling it. But you have to have a bachelor's degree. And I'm like, I don't know very many veterinary technicians that have bachelor's degrees. And I've wanted to go back to school and I cannot believe how much coursework they want me to redo.

Dr. Angie (20:33.807)
No.

JoJo Smith (20:41.558)
at this point. I'm like, so now you're talking about getting me into, I mean, $100,000 in debt.

Dr. Angie (20:49.238)
my gosh. And to do the things you're already doing.

JoJo Smith (20:50.508)
So it's not really slated for us. It's not really slated for veterinary technicians because most of us don't have that bachelor's degree. But that's a shame piece, right? Because I have shame that we don't have a bachelor's degree.

Dr. Angie (20:59.534)
Right.

Dr. Angie (21:04.366)
Right, and then this mid-level practitioner's gonna have a master's. Yeah.

JoJo Smith (21:08.664)
Yeah, so it just makes me feel lower and lower in the industry.

Dr. Angie (21:14.298)
Well, I think that's where they really left veterinary nurses is instead of saying, okay, how can we take them where they are with an associates and then elevate to the next. That's really what we needed. And this, this wasn't it.

JoJo Smith (21:30.404)
I know so many of us would have jumped on that.

Dr. Angie (21:33.37)
Totally. But I don't think any veterinary nurse wants to do surgery except for maybe a cat neuter. Right?

JoJo Smith (21:38.98)
Most of us didn't become veterinarians because of that. Right? Like I don't look at your job and think, yeah, I definitely want to be a veterinarian. Because I just think, why don't I want that? I mean, it's so much more stress. Like I feel I have enough stress. But it's so much more stress, so much more school debt.

Dr. Angie (21:48.41)
Right, because you would have done that.

Dr. Angie (21:58.042)
Right.

Dr. Angie (22:02.964)
much more school debt. I don't know what veterinarians are graduating with.

JoJo Smith (22:04.256)
And your pay just is not, doesn't, like that's when I was really thinking about being a veterinarian. I'm like, the amount of debt I'm gonna have for the ROI for the return on my investment. Yeah, I don't know. And I wonder, so that VPN is very appealing, super appealing.

Dr. Angie (22:16.825)
Yeah.

Dr. Angie (22:26.382)
Yeah.

JoJo Smith (22:26.744)
because you're still responsible for me.

Dr. Angie (22:29.946)
I know that's true. You're like, I get to do all the things and have no, there's no board that's going to take me to task.

JoJo Smith (22:30.692)
Yeah.

JoJo Smith (22:38.926)
They don't even have to go take a national exam. I've had to take every state exam and every national exam. They don't even have to take a national exam. For me, that's just mind-blowing.

Dr. Angie (22:45.636)
Totally.

Dr. Angie (22:51.3)
I hope the word gets out and other states cannot vote this in. I think it's really strange that this would be up to a public vote. And maybe I don't know enough about government and how medicine is regulated, but why wouldn't we be responsible for this? Why are we asking our clients to fix this problem for us?

JoJo Smith (23:18.434)
And where was the conversation about how do we better the veterinary industry? Where was that? And maybe that's where we're headed in our conversations, right? Like what does fix the veterinary industry?

Dr. Angie (23:26.69)
It did not happen.

Dr. Angie (23:30.734)
Yeah.

Dr. Angie (23:37.54)
Yeah.

Well, food for thought. So if you're a pet parent listening to this and in three years time, so it's December of 2024 now. And so I guess they'll, I wonder when they'll actually start.

JoJo Smith (23:52.792)
Well, they said they're going to graduate the first class 2027.

Dr. Angie (23:57.082)
Okay, so in 2027.

JoJo Smith (23:57.892)
Was it 2026? Might have been 2026.

Dr. Angie (24:01.388)
Okay, well they better get on it. They have to have people apply right now. So if, well, if you're thinking about applying to this, probably don't. and then, if you are a pet parent, I would really consider giving this some time. Maybe that's the advice when new drugs come out, new treatments come out. I always just take a beat and I let things kind of settle out.

I remember when Solensia the injection for arthritis for cats came out. I just was like, I'm going to chill for just a minute. And you know, some of my patients did miss out because of that, but I've also took a beat with Librela and Librela has some issues. And so I'm glad I have. remember, remember they rolled out ProHeart and like they rolled it out too quickly and then, you know, some dogs lost their lives. so I think pet parents should take my advice and just.

JoJo Smith (24:48.43)
Huh? Forgot about that.

Dr. Angie (24:58.424)
Give it a minute and let's not let your animal be the one that's ironing out the kinks because that's going to drastically change everyone's day when this person comes in. And there are going to be, man, there's so, there can be so much drama in veterinary clinics anyways, amongst staff.

Can you imagine what's going to happen now? I always tell people to take their pets where people are happy. That's why right now we're recommending Rise in Boulder. So for our Boulder clients, we always recommend Rise because people are happy there. And I think that's really important. And so my advice is give it a beat. What do you think?

JoJo Smith (25:44.932)
I think that's great advice. I would take that advice on our end too. Right? Not just to pet parents, but let it play out. Because maybe it will benefit rural clinics. Maybe there are some clinics that it's really going to benefit and we just aren't in.

need of that specific role. But there might be clinics and shelters that really do benefit from it. Farms, who knows? It could play a bigger role than what I've let my mind imagine.

Dr. Angie (26:05.817)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Angie (26:19.546)
It's so diplomatic.

JoJo Smith (26:20.936)
but it's the truth. you know, I always am diplomatic. I like, I can see things from all sides.

Dr. Angie (26:22.85)
I know.

Dr. Angie (26:26.318)
I know you are. That's your gift. I think I'm just like not ready to make nice yet. Like I just am not ready. I'm like, I can't, I can't see the good in this at all, but maybe I'll get there. We have some years.

JoJo Smith (26:32.297)
I'll play nice for us.

JoJo Smith (26:40.364)
Well, it's not coming from my role either because I work for you. So I know if I were in a clinic, I might not be so diplomatic. I don't know. Yeah.

Dr. Angie (26:44.27)
That's true. We're going to be fine.

Right, Okay, well, you can find out more about this, what, CSU's website? Is that right? Here, I'm just gonna go.

JoJo Smith (27:00.804)
CSU if she does have one.

Dr. Angie (27:03.396)
Yeah. If you go to vetmedbioci.colostate.edu forward slash VPA, will put the link to this in the show notes and we would love to hear what you think. So you can comment below and let us know what you think. Anything else Jojo? Hurry, wrap it up. Okay. Talk to you all soon. Bye.

JoJo Smith (27:24.772)
I it was fun.