Poets & Thinkers
Poets & Thinkers explores the humanistic future of business leadership through deep, unscripted conversations with visionary minds – from best-selling authors and inspiring artists to leading academic experts and seasoned executives.
Hosted by tech executive, advisor, and Princeton entrepreneurship & design fellow Ben Lehnert, this podcast challenges conventional MBA wisdom, blending creative leadership, liberal arts, and innovation to reimagine what it means to lead in the AI era.
If you believe leadership is both an art and a responsibility, this is your space to listen, reflect, and evolve.
Poets & Thinkers
Beyond “Popcorn Innovation”: Human-First leadership from IBM to the United Nations with Frances West
What if the key to navigating our AI-driven future isn’t about becoming more technological, but rather more authentically human? In this inspiring episode of Poets & Thinkers, we explore the intersection of technology, leadership, and human dignity with Frances West, a pioneering executive whose wisdom spans decades of technological transformation. As IBM’s first-ever Chief Accessibility Officer and a global advocate for digital inclusion, Frances brings a unique perspective on how to harness AI’s potential while keeping humanity at the center.
Frances takes us on a journey through her remarkable career, from arriving in America at age 19 to becoming a trailblazing technology executive who helped shape IBM’s approach to human-centered innovation. Drawing on insights from her book “Authentic Inclusion™ Drives Disruptive Innovation,” she reveals why the skills we’ve traditionally considered “soft” – creativity, empathy, persistence, and ethical judgment – will become our most valuable assets in an AI-driven world.
Throughout our conversation, Frances challenges the dominant narratives around AI, arguing that as artificial intelligence becomes more advanced, humans must embrace and cultivate the qualities that make us uniquely human. She offers a compelling vision for business leadership that balances profit with principle and purpose, emphasizing that true innovation must be rooted in meeting authentic human needs rather than merely advancing technology for its own sake.
In this thought-provoking discussion, we explore:
- Why “human first” thinking is crucial for ethical technology development
- How digital inclusion benefits everyone, not just those with disabilities
- The leadership traits essential for navigating our AI-integrated future
- Why “popcorn innovation” fails where disciplined vision succeeds
- The balance between maintaining our authentic selves while embracing AI tools
This episode is an invitation to reimagine our relationship with technology through a lens of authentic inclusion, challenging us to develop the leadership qualities that will help humanity thrive alongside artificial intelligence.
Topics
00:30 - Introduction to Frances West and her career at IBM
03:30 - The concept of “human first” in technology development
06:00 - Balancing AI advancement with human dignity and agency
13:30 - The importance of building inclusive technology from the start
17:40 - How technology has evolved from mainframes to personalized devices
21:10 - The human qualities AI cannot easily replicate
27:10 - "As AI gets more human, humans need to get more human"
30:40 - Balancing foundational skills with creativity in education
34:00 - The evolution of leadership skills needed for an AI-integrated world
36:00 - The Four L’s of leadership: Listen, Learn, Lived experience, Lead
41:30 - Avoiding "popcorn innovation" with disciplined vision and execution
45:30 - How sales experience grounds technological innovation
50:40 - Frances’s vision for the future of business leadership
52:00 - The Five C’s for future leaders: Confidence, Conviction, Communication, Curiosity, and Courage
Resources Mentioned
Authentic Inclusion™ Drives Disruptive Innovation by Frances Wes
Get in touch: ben@poetsandthinkers.co
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Welcome to Poets Thinkers, the podcast where we explore the future of humanistic business leadership. I'm your host, ben, and today I'm speaking with Frances West. Frances is a founder, advisor and speaker. She's the author of the book Authentic Inclusion Drives Disruptive Innovation and was IBM's first Chief Accessibility Officer. I first met Francis a few years ago through my work at Stark.
Speaker 1:It's hard to overstate the impact Francis and her work has had not only on the early tech industry, but on the digital world we live in today. As IBM's first chief accessibility officer, she was instrumental in shaping the company's accessibility strategy and setting new industry standards, and, as an industry veteran, she's had the chance to help shape every major technology revolution so far, from mainframes to AI systems like Watson AI. After retiring from IBM, frances founded Frances Weston Co. A global advisory firm dedicated to helping organizations integrate sustainable, inclusive digital strategies. Now she advises Fortune 500 companies, startups and nonprofits on leadership, emerging technologies and inclusion, empowering them to align inclusion with business objectives for market differentiation and growth Recognized by the United Nations. She speaks around the world on digital inclusion, ai, women in leadership and the workplace. Her journey as a first-generation immigrant informs her perspective on leadership and resilience, highlighting the importance of inclusive leadership in today's interconnected world. In preparation for this conversation, I loved revisiting her book where, already over seven years ago, frances not only outlined a framework for organizations to leverage inclusion as a competitive advantage, but she very specifically talks about the disruptive impact AI will not only have on a technology landscape, but society as a whole. So I couldn't wait to discuss with Frances how we can lead in this future and ensure that we're building technology and businesses that serve everybody.
Speaker 1:If you like the show, make sure you like, subscribe and share this podcast. Now let's jump into the conversation. Frances, I'm so glad we get to do this. It's great to have you here. Where does this podcast find you?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm sitting in my home office in Newton, massachusetts, a suburb of the Beantown Boston.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. And why don't we get started and you tell us a little bit about yourself For those of you who don't know you are not familiar with your work, just to get a little bit of sense for who you are.
Speaker 2:Okay, I am a I guess some would call it. One person actually called me a wisdom whisperer age of a woman in tech. I am an Asian Chinese, born in Taiwan, raised in Hong Kong and came to the US at the tender age of 19. And met my husband and ended up spending my entire life in the United States, including spending 30 plus years at the company called IBM. Some of the millennial and gen Zer may not know IBM, but it is the longest lasting technology company on the planet and I had my very fulfilling career at IBM and retired or I would like to say graduated in 2016. And started my own company, francis West Co, to continue the work that I did at IBM, which was really helping companies, nonprofits and also startups to really operationalize what I call the digital inclusion, also startup to really operationalize what I call the digital inclusion, so every person can have access based on their personal preference and have a great user experience.
Speaker 1:And you know you certainly have inspired me in many, many ways.
Speaker 1:And, to kick us off, just to also summarize a little bit more for people listening and not being familiar entirely with your work, I've been looking forward to this conversation.
Speaker 1:I'm going to give a little bit of a sense for how I see you and the work that you've done. You really have been a trailblazer and pioneer as an executive as you said, ibm is certainly one of the technology companies that has shaped the world many times over, from initial computing all the way to even on the AI side with Watson, I believe, being the really first widely available AI technology provider but also as a leader in digital inclusion, as IBM's first ever chief accessibility officer and really shaping, then, not only the technology delivery but also how humans interact with that technology. And since you've also been advising anywhere from the United Nations to Fortune 100 executives and companies, and that's an incredible body of work and impact already. And, as you mentioned, what I love about the work that you do is that you focus on what you call human first. So maybe, as we dive into the conversation, maybe we'll start there. What does human first mean to you in the context of all of this work that you've done and that you continue to do.
Speaker 2:Well, first, thank you, benedict, for the accolade. I am very proud of my journey at IBM and, like you said, it is a company that actually helped, you know, put the people on the moon and also build, for example, the social security system. And also, you know, every day, when you book your bookingcom online, the American Airline Reservation System. So very big infrastructure projects. And then in the AI space, of course some of the people might recall the Jeopardy game where IBM Watson was pitted against the Jeopardy players. So that was like the first use case of AI. Fortunate to have that broad kind of a business background experience. And when I got into accessibility and in IBM research, as you can imagine, research is all about the most advanced thinking and based on technology. But one thing that what I noticed is that the way that we looked at technology at least the people I work with really focus on what I call the human first experience.
Speaker 2:And in the context of today, as you know, there is some, I would say, anti-woke or anti-DEI talk and a lot of times I think we forget the focus tends to be on the process of getting there versus the outcome. So when I think human first, that means that when we think about technology, let's think about not the identity or the label of individual, but what are the common things that human wants. So, for example, we all want to have a delightful experience when we go online. We all want to pursue happiness, you know. So there are things that are all human, you know can relate to each other, and then also each one of us is different from each other. So can we use technology to actually understand and also respect the differences and then use the power of things like AI to augment our ability so we can be more productive, more happy? So that's what I mean by human first, really put the human in the middle of all the technology innovation.
Speaker 1:I like that reminder which, especially in the current discussion, where you know it's so polarized and you know and we'll get hung up on labels and that kind of distracts so much from, as you said, what the actual human consequence and the outcome is. And, on the flip side, if we do that well, what you're describing, then there's a benefit for both human and business right, and we'll get to that in a little bit. One of the things that I read in your book which was really great to read from today's perspective, because the book came out in 2018, and it's called Authentic Inclusion for those who want to read it, which I would highly suggest you write from the smartphones in our pockets to the artificial intelligence being developed for nearly every purpose imaginable, it is hard to deny that technology is becoming a critical part of human existence. I believe that, within the span of the next decade, any human job that can be codified has the potential to be replaced by artificial intelligence.
Speaker 1:You know, looking at it from today's perspective and the conversation that's happening all over the world, this is even more fascinating to read because you were, you know, on this path and in this mindset for a long time and obviously way before you wrote it all down in a book. I wanted to ask you, how do you assess and kind of evaluate the current moment that we're in, especially regarding the technological advancements, and then that's evolving at record speeds. But also, what does this mean for business, because I already kind of touched on that a little bit, but what's your assessment? Where are we at, what does it mean for the world, businesses, and how we navigate it all? It's evolving so quickly.
Speaker 2:Like you mentioned, my book is called Authentic Inclusion Drives Depruptive Innovation. If you notice, authentic inclusion actually was trademarked because the shorthand is AI. So I always thought of that. As we move into the artificial intelligent world, which is not escapable I mean it's here and it will progress exponentially from this point on that we have to have authentic inclusion built into it. I mean AI is everywhere. It affects how we work and how we play, how we socialize. I mean we now have, you know, ai tool that help us to become like next Leonardo da Vinci, Right?
Speaker 2:I mean this morning on the Wall Street Journal front page about Larry Ellison how he's trying to use AI to create a food of the future. This is like agriculture AI for agriculture using sensors and everything in the island of the future. This is like an agriculture AI for agriculture, using sensors and everything in the island of Lanai. So everything we do, everything we live for, is going to be impacted by AI. So I think any business that's not engaging or individual actually, for that matter, which we can talk about later is not engaging AI. I think you will be either a missing out or be left out. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:But at the same time, I think there is such a hype it came about. You know, of course, thanks to Ted GBT, what two and a half years ago came onto the scene and everybody got blown away. You know, I don't think we need to freak out about it. I mean, this is where, at the very beginning of the AI evolution or revolution, and my analogy is just, like you know, it's like having a child. You know a lot, of a lot of us.
Speaker 2:Before you have a child, you never know what a child is being. You know it's like and all of a sudden, like it came, and then you'll become parents and you have this enormous responsibility. So the first month, two months or a year or so, you're going to be freaking out, but at the same time, it's doable, right? It's doable If you have an ecosystem. It's doable If you is doable, right, it's doable if you have an ecosystem. It's doable if you listen to the elders who has raised children. So I think there are ways approaching AI, because AI is emulating humans. So we have to look for a kind of input and also insight from humans to manage this AI human integrated world of the future.
Speaker 1:There's so many really interesting things in what you just said. One that I would want to kind of pull out a little bit is you know you spoke about how AI is emulating humans, how it's also inevitable that you know we will live in an AI everything world. Now you know we will live in an I everything world. Now I would love to get your take on.
Speaker 1:There's a very dominant narrative currently that's probably been kind of perpetuated by this hype cycle that we're in around this post-human era basically, and there's this kind of underlying narrative of, well, it's going to happen that way and it's, you know, humans will be replaced everywhere. And I was wondering what your take is on how do you balance, you know, using this technology that can do so much good for the betterment of the world, and also how our own sense of dignity and agency as humans plays into all of that. So you know, to your point about parenting, the thing with parenting is typically that you grow through the challenge and that you have really the best intentions to graduate your child into the world to be a decent human. And I wonder what your take is on balancing those narratives and really focus on using this technology for good.
Speaker 2:I mean, I really think there's quite a parallel and I think, could AI lead to a destruction of the world? Sure, there's always that possibility, you know, but is it 1% or 30% or 80%? We don't know right, and we're at the very beginning of this AI world. But AI is built by human. So it's a choice we have to make as to what kind of AI world we want it to be. And that's why I think that we talked about before, when we last chatted, the timing of, for example, really elevating the human element.
Speaker 2:Example, really elevating the human element, a human kind of a trait and character, and also these, what I call more of a kind of a soft power of human, like ethics, like trust, like responsibility, is so crucial Because, just like raising a child, if you don't infuse the child with value, with principle, early on, chances are they're going to go rogue or go off the rails, so to speak. So it is a continual responsibility of the human and especially at the inception stage. We're still at the concept stage as far as I'm concerned with the technology, the concept stage as far as I'm concerned with the technology area, and that's why it's so important we have to have a diversity of thoughts diversity of experience, diversity of insight and also expectation to come together and deal with this quote-un, a human equivalent.
Speaker 1:So when I kind of go back in technology history, which you have been a big part of, of shaping as we talked about before, then I can totally follow your, your, your argument here.
Speaker 1:When we're looking at especially the rise of personal computing and then all the way into the internet, we knew a lot of what you just stated.
Speaker 1:And yet when it came to digital inclusion, there was this whole move fast and break things mentality right, and so we actually in fact excluded a lot of folks that in turn could not become core contributors to economy, society, use the technology that we've built. So what is your take on how do we avoid that in this current moment now, where you know it is very nascent, it has a ton of potential, but it is also built on pretty much all the data that we've produced so far as humanity, which is to a certain degree, not complete, let's say that way I don't want to necessarily say biased, although that may be also true but certainly not complete, because we've been missing out on bringing a lot of people's perspective into the data set. So what's your take? How do we what would be kind of an actionable from? You have been shaping a lot of this. What would be an actionable kind of way to to do better in this very nascent stage of AI development and deployment.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, like you said, I guess I have the benefit of really watching the technology wave. And if you look at the computer in the very beginning, it's really just meant for speed, right, for productivity. I remember when I first entered IBM sales school they talked about three characters of a computer, which is RAS reliability, visibility and availability. Right, this big mainframe computer, to make sure that you have that kind of competitive advantage. And now fast forward. Back then the computer was sitting in the back room. Nobody sees it, right? I mean, most people don't even know there is a thing called computer.
Speaker 2:But it's cranking away, but it did drive their productivity right and helped to, you know, create a better accounting system and better manufacturing system and so on. Fast forward now we have the form factor of a cell phone and all of a sudden, the consumerization and also personalization of technology which, thanks to the advancement of chips and all these, you know, hardware, everybody can use this. So it's democratizing the technology. But because everybody uses it, I think a lot of the technologists of today, because the technology moves a little faster than a human brain can call out, kind of call us by surprise or not by intention, but we did not think about the impact on the human, didn't think about human first, because we're actually following a model of let's just do it faster, better, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But not realizing that human is different than the mainframe computer. Just faster is not necessarily better, right? So I think this is the time. Now we have a new wave of a technology called AI, quantum computing is coming.
Speaker 2:That's right we have a new wave of a technology called AI, quantum computing is coming, and I think we'll be even faster than what we can imagine with 5G, 6g and all that. This time I think we have to really be very mindful that, to know that, because it's so pervasive, it's so impactful that we have to think about the human impact, that we have to think about the human impact, the human insight into the beginning of the build-out of this technology. I don't think we can excuse ourselves a second time around and I think that's why, collectively, through your podcast and your work, for those of us who have been in this field for a while and more kind of focused on the human experience, this is a time to really speak up and stand up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's extremely well said, which is a great segue into the second quote that I pulled from your book, and I promise I won't quote the whole book, although there's a lot of good stuff in there.
Speaker 1:Won't quote the whole book, although there's a lot of good stuff in there, um so, but this is this is great, because you also go into basically embracing the idea that you know, this artificial intelligence wave will kind of go through the world and and become part of our every existence, but you also talk about basically what that means for humans. So I want to read the quote and then ask you about that. The quote is we need to consider the human attributes that a machine cannot codify as easily, things like creativity, empathy and collaboration, or character traits like persistence and grit. So what we consider to be soft skills are going to become some of the most critical proficiencies for managing technology, especially at the AI level. Tell me about that a little bit more in detail, because I've now heard this a few times coming up in different ways through these conversations. I would love to hear your thoughts on that a bit more kind of expanded.
Speaker 2:I think you know, like we talked about before, ai is now being trained by humans, right, and it's just digesting loads and loads of data, and it's very right. Now the process is somewhat binary, right, but then it can do it real fast Now with, you know, kind of neurologics and all that you're beginning to think and beginning to anticipate, which is, but, at the same time, I always are concerned, like one of the difference of me is that I am an immigrant person, so my English is not my first language.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the same for me.
Speaker 2:On the other hand, always correct me. It's almost like in the movie my Fair Lady, you know the rain in Spain and sometimes I like it. Sometimes I told him, I said then, if you make it perfect, it's not me, Right, Right. So there is that, that, that balance of how do I stay authentic as myself, Right?
Speaker 2:And and then not being, you know, smooth over, because ChatGPT is going to spit out probably Oxford level. You know English composition, but then people would not be able to see. That's really me, you know. So I have to make that judgment call and maybe it's.
Speaker 2:It's a bit of a chinklish, but I would leave it like that because that's how I speak and then then that's who I am, right? So, and having that, for example, that confidence to leave that kind of digital mark of myself, it's something that only human can have, and so it's a trade that not necessarily can be processed, you know, by logic or by chips, right? So I think for those of us who really will be living and also living in the world of AI, one has to be very intentional and conscious of what AI does for me and what I do for AI, and then be very mindful of how I can still be differentiating as an individual. And that's when the train, like you know, like how do you codify a grid, right Grid? Says that you know, you just keep trying because AI is going to solve whatever question you know once. But even in that, you know, what I found is that now we have this new profession called prompt engineering.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean, people ask questions, but what I found is that you've got to be very persistent and almost to the level of having grit, ask questions in like 10 trillion different ways, or even ask different AI machines, right, whether it's a deep seek or a. Ct or this gem, because you get different kinds of answers. So perhaps those human traits are still coming handy by. If you have that grid or persistent kind of a personality, chances are you're going to dig deeper and then in the end the kind of collage of output from AI is going to be rendered superior, for example, to just a single prompt of a single AI.
Speaker 2:So I think, there is still actually not just you know.
Speaker 1:I think there will always be opportunity for the individual with these personality traits that cannot be replaced by AI native speaker, so I can very much relate to that, and embracing the fact was certainly not necessarily always easy, but I also, I think I landed in the same place as you and say well, that's just what makes me me, and even more so, I think, in the AI era, where it is so easy to create something that reads perfect, sounds perfect. One of the main reasons I decided to do this as a podcast rather than written interviews or some other format was that I think there's something really important about the artifact of a human to human conversation, right Going back to the very beginning, where you talked about human first. At the end of the day, we're not building technology for technology's sake, right. We're building it so that it can benefit humans. So I found that really interesting, the way you talked about that.
Speaker 1:And then the second point, which is also bringing me to my probably next question, is around these groups like creativity and critical thinking that you described, and using different tools and being able to determine what kind of outcome you want, if the quality of the outcome is actually something that you like.
Speaker 1:So what I found really interesting there is when I compare that to the way we currently educate and train people, all the way from very early elementary schools to higher education, which I know you've been part of as well then what's interesting is that those are at odds with each other. Right, because we've basically built an education system based on industrial revolution, which trained people to try and produce very consistent, predictable, repeatable results. And now we're saying, well, actually we need to train people to be critical thinkers, have a strong value set and ethical principles and creative tools, to come up with new ideas all the time, because the machines will do the predictable stuff. What's your perspective and maybe even your vision for what this means like in the way we train people and teach them all the way from very young people to, you know, managers that have to live and manage through this time now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean in my book I have a phrase that you know as artificial intelligence gets, as AI gets more human, human needs to get more human right as we enter this world of AI as an available tool anywhere, any place anywhere, and that anything can be codified will be done by AI. So, for example, basic accounting, basic engineering, even in the healthcare profession like radiology.
Speaker 1:Yeah, scans right.
Speaker 2:But then so you can assume that's going to be done by AI. But interpretive skill sets, right, the analytical skill sets and the collaboration skill sets, those are going to be the most you know useful skill set one has to have. But that doesn't mean that you don't need to have the foundational skill of reading, writing, arithmetic, right. Because I. Because I now have.
Speaker 2:you know I'm proud, but sometimes I'm a little shy to say that I have grandchildren when I watch them learn and I came to an education system that's very strict, you know very much exam kind of based education system and as harsh as it was and as there was a lot of criticism against that, but I felt like it gave me a foundational knowledge of how things work, you know, in the world, whether it's the literature, whether it's mathematics or whatever, but because of that I can build on other skill sets and analytical skill sets on top of that. So I think, but the creativity definitely is something that has to be nurtured. It's not just like left brain, right brain, you know learner, visual learner versus audio learner. We are all different. So I think as we enter this, there'll be so many tools available. Each one of us will have the actually the benefit of knowing what style or your personal preference that you are and then understand that how you can use the tools that are out there to supplement or augment your call it deficiencies or weakness.
Speaker 2:You know, and to me that's actually actually is the purpose of the technology. Right, and you and I both uh kind of spent quite a bit of time in this world of, uh, digital accessibility. You know, a lot of times people relate. I mean the foundational kind of interpretation is that accessibility is for people with disabilities, but we talked about from day one I didn't think that way. I thought, wow, this is a technology augmenting the different sets of circumstances. Right.
Speaker 2:In the situation of disabled. So why put the label on disability when this is actually a best use case of technology enabling human beings? That's why I decided to, even in my second life or third chapter, to major in this, Because to me I just don't see any other way, especially knowing where the technology is going. So I want to be there. I want the technology to help humanity, not the other way around.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely, of it's augmenting human abilities. It's filling in gaps where, you know, situationally, temporarily, we might not have full access to certain abilities. We have enough proof points that that is, in fact, benefiting everyone in plenty of different situations. What's interesting to me is everything you described on. You know the education system and you know what skills we're looking for.
Speaker 1:I'm really fascinated by what that means for managers. We've both managed at scale, large organizations, and one of the big challenges is always when you manage through big transformations, be that initial personal computing and computing into the workplace, the Internet, the mobile revolution, all of those and now we're in probably one of the biggest, maybe even the biggest revolution that we've lived to. Technology wise, I know you also have spent quite some time teaching. I remember you worked with and taught at Sloan Management, the Sloan Management School, at Sloan Management, the Sloan Management School. So how do you see the managing through this change and how do we build organizations that are human first, that are embracing the challenges and opportunities that come with the deployment of AI specifically, but then also really figure out that transition from old world skills to new world skills? What's your take on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I got involved with initiative that was started, like you mentioned, by the Soul Management School actually during the pandemic, and they had an initiative really begin to look at what the future excuse me, business leader needs to possess right, and then, if you look at before, there seemed to be always, you know, focusing on, I would say, kind of more of operational skills. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know and I mean it included some you know. For example, you got to be teamwork oriented, you got a collaboration, good communication skills and so on and so forth. But I think what they realized is that you know these, what we call the soft skills you know, responsibility and trust. These are very important skills that we have to infuse, especially with our MBA, the business leaders right, let's face it. I mean I worked for a for-profit company IBM all my life and the money makes the world go around right.
Speaker 2:So it's absolutely crucial that we have to have business. At the same time, I think the business has to think about their. It's not just a corporate responsibility, but you know. It's you know and understanding what the purpose of the company is. So that's why we started having these kind of summits to talk about how the ethical leadership means and how it tells you know means and how he tells you know.
Speaker 2:I also feel like the leadership you talked about management is if you're in the technology area. A lot of times I feel like we have not educated our technologists, computer scientists, engineers, enough about leadership. It seems like that leadership curriculum is reserved for the business, you know, students but it should be the other way around as far as I'm concerned, because the world is run by technology.
Speaker 2:I mean it's enabled by technology, so especially each one of us, very soon we will have AI as our agent or we will have robot at our disposal. So it's almost like you will be managing a cadre of real people and virtual artifacts, right? So when you are managing, the thinking is very different when you're just an independent contributor. So there are certain traits that I have when I talk about, I know, this leadership kind of a transformation. I talk about fall. You know the first L is you have to learn, you have to be a good listener. You know Abraham Lincoln is probably the most revered and respected president of the United States and if you look at one of the key attributes that he's been, you know, kind of related to or been accredited for, it's his ability to listen you know, listen to diverse opinions, and always with a smile on his face.
Speaker 2:So the first is to listen and second is to learn. You know, really have a desire to learn every day. You know, yesterday's knowledge is not necessarily good for tomorrow. So you got to be learning. And then to have a lived experience day, you know yesterday's knowledge is not necessarily good for tomorrow.
Speaker 2:So you're definitely learning. And then to have a lived experience. I think we talked about you know, this podcast, the fact that you and I are are, even though we're not in the same room, but we are looking at each other and communicating and there is that lived experience that is so crucial, because it's hard to approximate anybody else's the ideal places that you actually lived, you know. So I live, like I say, united States. When I first came here, I lived with a professor, a Jewish professor family, so I learned how to make blintzes, celebrate Passover and Hanukkah celebrate.
Speaker 2:Passover and Hanukkah. I learned so much about their culture and actually kind of informed my way of thinking and relating to other people with a different cultural background. If you have done all those things, then you earn the right to lead right, so you have to have L is to lead, but then you always have to be very mindful. Are you fear leading or are you leading?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Today's world. A lot of times, because of proliferation of information and social media, a lot of us are on the sideline, fear leading but we're not in the trenches and leading. Yes. So those are what I think is going to be a necessary skills of the future so to speak.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great. And especially, I mean to your point about you have to be in the trenches, you have to be, you know, essentially leading from the front and being with the people that you lead. I think, especially in times of transformation, it's so, so critical. And, as you were talking through the four L's, which I think are fantastic, I also envisioned them in my mind as a circle. It's a loop, right, because once you get to the leading, you still need to do all of this all the time. Yeah, it's a continuous loop, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's right which?
Speaker 1:is really, really fantastic and a great visual for my for my own, you know mind to to keep remember, remembering, I know you know focused a lot on ethical leadership and teaching that, and we already touched on a good bit of that.
Speaker 1:Though, the one thing that I found extremely fascinating from one of our last conversations was your ability and the skills that you've built about around really doing long-term envisioning and research of what the future will look like, but then also and it stuck with me very clearly being really business-minded in the execution, and a phrase that I wrote down from one of those conversations was that you said I'm not interested in popcorn innovation, so you need to tell me and ask a little bit more about that term, but also, I think, more concretely, I'm really interested in how do you balance that, especially in this time now, where I think you're right, we need to look a little bit further ahead, try to anticipate unintended consequences. Try to anticipate unintended consequences, and then we need to go back to work and we need to make sure that we're actually delivering both value for the business but also value for the humans that we're actually building for. Tell me a little bit about popcorn innovation and also, how do we lead, you know, in that kind of tension, space?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the popcorn innovation came about when I saw, you know, for example, right now in AI, there's tons of money coming in right. Everybody is just like a back in the dot com. Everybody will put out a shingle with a web URL, with a dot com. Now it's like everybody is dot AI, no-transcript, a hackathon, you know, or two yep. So these are very big idea, but a lot of time. It really not really have been tested in terms of the rest of the execution right so.
Speaker 2:I guess there is a phrase that's like if you have a vision but then you don't have the execution action, it's just a dream, right, right yes.
Speaker 2:And then a lot of people have all these very productivity-driven so it's a lot of action, but then you say who is going to use it for? And they couldn't explain the vision. So the action without a vision is just a lot of to-dos, you know right. And then it's only action with vision that, coming together, you can really potentially change the world and be transformative. So I mean I watch a lot of the young people with big ideas.
Speaker 2:But that really goes through the kind of rigorous testing of themselves and also the market when you are in a kind of a research arena like I was in IBM, which is the privately funded research, so that every dollar you spend it will come out of the profit, you know. So you have to be very mindful. That's not to say you shouldn't be thinking big, right? I mean that's why we talked about the exploratory research that sometimes takes 20 years, but then you have a very, very disciplined approach to say, okay, maybe it's 20 years out, but at the 10-year mark we begin to test out, you know if there are one or two customers is what we call the one a kind customers will be interested in.
Speaker 2:Then you start testing a few of a kind. Then you test out many of a kind. Then you start thinking you know, can I mass customize this thing to the marketplace? Right. And then you are also very mindful that this could become commoditized because, like anything, if it's a good stock, people are going to to you right then you better start another innovation curve.
Speaker 2:So, so this whole, there's a whole school of thoughts or whole discipline that needs to be you know, at least in the back of your mind, if you're going to, you know, really make it big. You know there are very few unicorns out there, but there are a lot of successful companies. And then I've been fortunate to be working with some of these not quite startup they're growth companies and then you look at every one of them. The CEOs have that kind of mentality. They keep an eye out on their vision but then at the same time, they apply the discipline. Obviously, it depends on the size of your company, but you could be just a three or two man shop. You still need to have that kind of um ethos, I think, in your uh business, uh thinking as part of your uh business acumen yeah, I I think I think you know the way you talk through.
Speaker 1:This is clear and actionable. And I also see the same things where you know, on the one hand, a lot of teams out there, a lot of founders out there with just a dream right and then mistaking action for progress, on the other hand, there's also plenty that really manage really well to balance that. That also. I mean there's an inner tension too, first and foremost, right To say, okay, yeah, I see the big vision, but I also know that I can only get there if I'm taking the right steps on a daily, quarterly, yearly basis. Did it help you at all in all of the impact that you've had and the progress you've made, both actually as an executive but also now in advising, that you had, through your sales experience, that constant touch point with the market, because you briefly mentioned it. So I wanted to see if that is something that you know that critical to kind of keep you in check or keep you balanced.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, like we discussed in our last call, I'm actually an accidental accessibility slash digital inclusion person. My first 25 years in IBM was in what you call the mainstream sales and marketing role right Quota bearing and have to contract customer facing. And one of the probably the highlight was in the early 90s. I actually went on a three-year assignment to help IBM open up the financial services sector and my team actually helped build the China payment system, which is the Federal Reserve equivalent interbank clearance system, and we also built the back office Shanghai Stock Exchange clearance and settlement system. So you are always as a sales and marketing person, you are always measured by outcome, right.
Speaker 2:What are you delivering then? And having pipeline is not good enough. It's the same money before december 31st, so that kind of a go-to-market mindset you know it is is always in in play. And also, what's your routes to market? I mean, people talk about routes to market, uh, especially in the startup world. But routes to market says especially in the startup world. But routes to market says, you know, sometimes you don't have the capacity to sell yourself, so maybe you would sell it through an agent, maybe you sell it through a partner. So there's a whole, you know idea of creating an ecosystem. You know that can actually amplify your presence or your invisibility is some of the things that I, you know, I try to, you know, inform the young, you know CEOs to say don't think that you're the only company you know can do it, but you need to think about a broader ecosystem kind of a thinking.
Speaker 2:And it can start with just one partner, you know. So having that sales and marketing background really grounds me in helping companies and individuals in this accessibility world, because a lot of times most of the entrepreneurs in this space came from either personal experience or advocacy background. So some of the business, you know, exposure is not as strong. So I think it's actually very important that we, you know we help the human-first business At the same time. The business people like I decided to stay in this field because I learned so much, you know from them, from the human first business. So part of my motivation is how can I help to integrate or help to translate in some cases? You know the conversation because at times we do tend to talk passive rather than the business?
Speaker 2:People think that the minute you start talking about human first, you're just like a tree hugging, you know. Progressive, you know. But then and then the people who are on the advocacy side, the men of the business, say no, because the priority is not high. They get very offended and think it's very personal, but it's like you can't, you just have to brush it off, put your helmet on and go back at it again, you know. So that's actually sales, you know, that's right. Sales begins when the customer says no.
Speaker 1:That's right. I love that phrase. That's fantastic, Not heard that before. I can't let you go although we're already at time before asking you because I know you've been working with the United Nations and other institutions that really kind of have a global perspective on the future, and one of the main reasons or the main things I want to explore with this podcast is what does the humanistic future of business leadership look like? Because there are certain aspects of traditional business leadership that have not served us well or have certainly gotten us worldwide into some trouble. So what is your vision for the future of business leadership? With everything you've seen, with the big transformation that we're in right now? How do you envision leadership to evolve as we go, and what does that mean for the world?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I kind of laid it out in my book when I wrote it back in 2018. I feel very strongly that the business leadership of present and also in the future because the AI or the technology impact have to be very mindful to align profit with principle and purpose. So the principle, of course, is some of the things that we talked about, right, ethic and trust and responsibility. And purpose is like why are you in this business? And then the purpose not just for profit, but for your people. The people could be employee, your supplier and your customer Right. Very clear that making money is absolutely important, but then let's not forget that it should be principle driven and with a purpose. And then what do I see as the leader that will be kind of needed for this new world? In addition to the four L's, I have a four C. One is the first one is you have to be very confident, right? I mean the leader of this era going forward is a very disrupted, unpredictable world.
Speaker 2:All the playbook is out the window, right Between geopolitics, between climate change, between pandemic economic ups and downs. You have to have confidence that you can lead and then I think it's very important that you have conviction that you really, you know want to, you really want to lead, and then you know how to lead and then be clear about how you articulate. You know that and then you need to really have a way of communicating, having very strong communication skills and then be able to really work with people. And then curiosity you have to be very curious. I mean technology like AI, like quantum, is something that you have to be very curious. I mean technology like.
Speaker 2:AI, like quantum, is something that you have to want to learn, yes, and not be sitting on your laurels and then thinking what you have gone to school or your MBA or your PhD is going to be good for you. You've got to be very curious.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's my fourth C, but I think I'm going to add one more, which is courage. You know, I think I love that. We are at a point in the world, in the society, where a lot of us are being tested individually or the company is being tested of their integrity and what they stand for, their purpose and all that.
Speaker 2:I think the leader is going to have to have the courage at times to speak what she or he you know believes in and may not be the most you know crowd-pleasing comment or position, but having that, you know, courage is actually a needed trait in this particular turbulent time, both for technology and also for society.
Speaker 1:There couldn't be a better way to end this. Thank you so much for the time and all the insight. It's always a pleasure to talk to you and I'm glad that we have one now on recording that people can listen to. Thank you for your time and it's great. Well, you should probably do another one. Well, thank you for your time and it's great. Well, you should probably do another one.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for this opportunity. It's such a delightful conversation and, yeah, let's do another one when time permits.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. Thank you so much. Thank you All. Right, that's a wrap for this week's show. Thank you for listening to Poets and Thinkers. If you liked this episode, make sure you hit follow and subscribe to get the latest episodes wherever you listen to your podcast.
