No Life 'Til Lager Episode 21 - Conor Begley x Joe Cloyes x Fathers

No Life 'Til Lager Episode Twenty One with Conor Begley and Joe Cloyes, co-founders at Fathers Brewing.

Hosted by failed Master Cicerone® Adam Zuniga. Produced by Jeremy Batchelor.

No Life 'Til Lager theme song by The Bad Actors. Episode art by ChatGPT.

Follow @nolifetillager, https://nolifetillager.buzzsprout.com

Clean Beer Here - https://www.fathersbrewing.com

Copyright 2026 No Life 'Til Lager

Transcript

Welcome Conor and Joe!

SPEAKER_03 0:14

Welcome to No Life to Lager, a show about lager beer, the brewers who make it and we that drink it. This is a conversation between three people over one or two pints. My name is Adam Zuniga. I'm a failed master Cicero and I'm part of the creative team behind the Six Most Metal Breweries and Beer Like and Dust movie. Today, my guests are Connor Bagley and Joe Cloys, co-founders at Father's Brewing based in Lafayette, California. My neighbors to the East. Cheers and welcome and thank you, Connor and Joe.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Ah, thank you. Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Yeah, it's been fun uh getting to know the industry and getting to know people like you. And um, you know, it was fun collaborating on that Super Bowl event, getting you guys involved. It's a good time.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

Grateful for it, Joe. As you've seen, it's a small world, and as you're gonna see even more, it gets even smaller as we go. So I am so thankful to have fathers on No Life Till Lager. Uh, this is a good follow-up to our previous episode with Figaroa Mountain, just because we talked a lot about the nostalgia around lager beer, uh, particularly around lager and 12-ounce brown bottles. And uh just this idea of quality contract brewing, like breweries supporting breweries in what are perceived as tough and challenging times for the industry right now. So um I want to talk about all that. We are 21 episodes in. We are officially legal with this episode of No Life to Logger. And we're ready to be a dad. We're ready to be fathers. Um, I think

The beers at hand

SPEAKER_03 1:50

you were brewing really interesting beers. Uh, I have the light beer in my hand because what? It's still before noon Pacific time. Tell me about what I'm drinking. Let's talk through the beers, then we're gonna talk through, uh talk about you, and we're gonna talk about the brand you're building because I really want this episode to read like a playbook for anyone who's setting out in 2026 to build a national lager brand. But before we get there, tell me about the beer in my hand. Tell me about the light lager from Pope.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yeah, the light lager, our fathers. We we you know internally love to just call it father's blue, but you know, both beers, especially the light beer, started out as uh Connor and I have loved beer our whole lives. Well, since we were 21, we'll say. Yes. But uh, you know, it kind of came back going through all of our craft beer days, really wanted to make just a great American lager, a good light beer. And I think it was a lot of opportunities in the market. There's a lot of great products out there, but nothing we were finding that that really, you know, stoked our palate and our and our goal for organic products in our life. And uh, so we're like, let's make it. Um sometimes I think that's how a lot of companies start. Just do something you want for yourself and see if other people like it.

SPEAKER_03 2:52

I wish that was always the case. I think that's very sincere, that's very authentic, that's giving most companies the benefit of the doubt. Um but I see it in what you're building and I taste it and what's in the glass.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Yeah. Yeah, I think the the things we wanted to capture on are, you know, like we, you know, went through the craze of drinking IPAs and pale ales and all the crazy stuff, the hazy's, and you know, just a little, it was a lot, right? It was a lot to take in. And so for us, like I wanted to be able to dial it back without having to go to a course light, no offense to coors light, but just you know, something that had some complexity to it, yeah. Um, you know, but wasn't uh, you know, wasn't a 7%, you know, 250 calorie IPA, right? And so um and so that was definitely a big part of it. And then we tried to, we tried to spend time to really get it right. So we went, you know, well over a year developing these two core recipes because we knew that like big beer brands are built off of one or two SKUs, right? So you got to get those right. And so we didn't stop until we beat every other logger blind with their eyes closed and blind taste tests. And uh yeah, and to answer questions specifically around what you're drinking, so that's Admiral Malt, um, all organic. And we've got uh Contessa, organic Contessa, and organic helios hops in there are the two kind of hop hop varieties.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

Really interesting. So 4.2% alcohol. Um I know you've been working with Admiral malt. So they're Pilsner malt, they're Midway malt. Uh these are um, but of course Pilsner, lightest base malt, but Midway's more of kind of a Vienna or a Munich style. And we see this in your, we'll call it Father's Red as well, and then some. Um Helios and Contessa are really interesting choices just because they're they're US bred, but they're they're noble-esque, right? They're noble type hops with similar profiles to what you'd find from Germany. Um and then are either of you drinking father's red white right now.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

I am, yeah. Um, you know, because I'm a man and not a good kid. That comes back.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

As you imagine mentioned, it's before noon. I gotta pick up my kids in a couple hours. So every point of ABV counts right now.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

Oh agreed. Every point counts. So Father's Red, similar base, but includes what? Victor malt from Admiral. Um and then it's uh substantially more hoppy, organic citra and a twist of Nelson Sauvin from New Zealand. And you can smell it the moment you open the bottle.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Yeah. And I think we wanted to, you know, again, going back to like people that like IPAs, but wanted to kind of dial it back. That was why we integrated those hops. And our brewer actually calls it, we call it an American lager. It's actually like a dry hopped Vienna style lager, is the way that he kind of categorizes it. We just knew that that that kind of naming convention would turn off a lot of brewers, right? It's like the same way that like Boston Lager, you know, it's not really what it is, right? It's got a lot more complexity to it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think what's so interesting, what's really compelling about these is it's just it's uh like it's a different idea and a very classic idea of both Light American lager and American lager. Like when I drink these, it's so much fun to speculate about, you know, how uh how would Budweiser may have maybe have tasted pre-prohibition? Might have been more malty, might have been more hoppy. There's elements of that in this. Um, how did Anchor maybe taste uh pre-prohibition or even pre-Fritz Maytag, you know, uh slightly more malty, slightly more hoppy than the rest. You know, these are beers of character, these are beers of distinction, um, and clearly kind of what you were looking for when you built out the recipe for these. So um before we

Know your Fathers

SPEAKER_03 6:35

dive deeper into the beer, um, I just want to know, get to know about you. Like let's get to know whose house we're in. Let's get to know dad. Let's get to know you all as fathers. So tell us uh just a little bit about who you are as people, as humans, other jobs you've had life before beer, and ultimately what led you to this moment.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Yeah, yeah. So uh we are in Connor's house currently. Uh so that's some maybe maybe his kid here in the background. He's never my kids, but uh both live in a city called Lafayette, which is in the East Bay area of California. Um, Connor and I met through our prior companies, both had separate companies, but worked together. He had a really cool um software platform that was one of the biggest in the world and best in the world at tracking the effectiveness of brands and social media and working with influencers. I had a skincare brand. Uh, so number one way of marketing there is social media and influencer. And so Connor and I met, uh, probably had a few beers together before we actually realized we lived five minutes apart. Uh and and you know, we're and so then continually over the years worked together, you know, as peers and uh just kind of built beyond just working together and became friends, families became friends, and uh over the years kind of joked about it'd be fun to build a beer brand. We the way we want to market, I don't think you're quite seeing in beer yet. So that would be fun, and again, we love it. Um, and ultimately that opportunity came up. Um, my brand was in skincare. Uh, we sold out in the end of 2021. My cousin and I built it to L'Oreal. There's a brand called Youth to the People. Impressive. So I had a few years of kind of relaxing, uh, chilling, very fortunate there. And so the opportunity to make some beer was pretty exciting. And again, calling up Connor, uh, or Connor called me up actually on the final idea. Um, as he was starting to wind down from his company he had sold, and it was like, all right, let's go. And I'll let him share a little more on that. But it was uh, you know, definitely I think ties in even to the name of fathers. Is we we became friends through work, but uh us being dads, us living in similar communities, having similar values for as far as what we eat, drink, and taste and how we treat people, I think really aligned to build a cool partnership together.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

Well, you're you are friends, you are neighbors, and you are fathers. So you have a lot of and Joe, maybe tell us uh just a little bit about uh kind of history and beer, preference in beer. Uh was there a beer you had a certain epiphany around? Was there a lack of that in the market, maybe, that kind of wanted to that you wanted to answer with this brand? Just tell us more about your history in beer, and then Connor, tell us about your history in beer and business.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Perfect. I'll just so you don't have to listen to Joe talk for so long. Nobody lets us. I'll go first. Um, so I think for me, you know, the kind of the big idea that Joe was kind of alluding to was this idea of clean beer, right? That was definitely what I think really kind of got us excited about this. Was like, hey, you don't really know what's in a beer. There's no calories, there's no ingredient list. Um, and so, you know, the idea of making a beer that you can feel great about drinking was really what kind of sparked this. And then from my background, so I had started the software company, but actually before that, I had worked at a brewery in Australia called Thunder Road Brewing. Um, and I ran all their digital, social, web, all that kind of stuff. And so um, it's been funny, my life has been very circular. It was like I was in the uh software business, then went to beer, then went to software, then went to beer. Now I'm launching another software company. It just keeps going in a in a in a circle between the two. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

Yeah. Well, you're in the right part of the world for that.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah. Um, but that was actually how you know we ended up getting um our brewer. So he's one of the best lager makers in the country, a guy named Harvey uh Kinney. So he was a protege of Will Kemper up at Chuck A Nut, and then a protege of uh Charlie Bamforth over at Davis, was in the first class there for that Master's Brewers program.

SPEAKER_03 10:20

Two legendary names, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Exactly. And so um, so that was my kind of background on beer, was like, you know, started there and then now kind of come back to it.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Um, yeah. Yeah. Well, and I mean, if he doesn't know Harvey, I don't know if any of this comes out. I don't know if we're sitting there today. So that like, you know, because it's when we're like, let's what is in beer, what's happening? Let's make clean beer, we want to make a lager. Well, Harvey's again one of the best in the world, and is very um focused on how to make beer cleaner. He was looking at it more from the just calories, carbohydrates, enzymes left over, because that really, as much as he's a brewer, he likes a very healthy beer for his gut. Yeah. Um, and so it was an interesting process talking with him and learning a lot from him. So his ideas ended up translating a lot into making ultimately what we came out with as a clean American lager. Um, so that was it was it was it was a very fortuitous uh, you know, 20 years ago happen stance 15 years ago when you're in Australia that it happened that way.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

But I've been keeping tabs with him because I always thought like I might come back to it, you know. Yeah, and so we were we just became friends similar. It's like, okay, this is a guy I really like. Like, I probably want to do stuff with him in the future. Yeah. And he's a bit of a mad scientist at the same time, right? He got his degree in like chemistry and microbiology, like, you know, aren't all brewers.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Yeah, I love it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think that to circle back on the beer question, you know, I went through I would say the full beer arc from the cheapest beer you could find when I was, you know, call it 21 and up, and then uh from there into eventually graduated to Cors Light, Bud Light, then graduated into went through my full into my 30s, into my craft beer obsession from you know, every local IPA I could find. Of course, the classics being Northern California was, you know, getting Pliny the Elder, and then eventually trying Planning the Younger was the big like, okay, I've made it all the way through the beer for local beers. Um and just a lot of great craft breweries around here that I really enjoy and went through the IPA to the hazy to the sours, the whole process. Um what's interesting is I would say even before Connor and I really put this plan together to make this beer was I was already kind of I couldn't really drink as many IPAs, things like that anymore. I just wanted to have a couple of light beers while I was, you know, playing golf of the day or hanging out with my kids at a barbecue with friends. And so um was going back trying course lights, trying both lights. Wasn't really loving it candidly again, nothing against it, just wasn't really loving it personally. Just trying to a lot of different a lot of the local uh craft brews I like had some great, some good pilsners, but I'm not a big pilsner person. I don't like the kind of extra bitterness there. So it was definitely like this this hole where I was like, man, what's the what's that premium great tasting American lager out there? Yeah, you know, that that brings a bit. And you you really get in the full. And I love our our red, our full because you get that extra hop, you get that kick of flavor that you need. Um none of that kind of like, oh, I'm full afterwards.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

You know, everything you just described, uh kind of down the craft beer rabbit hole and back, not even just craft beer, you're describing the journey of most drinkers now, kind of there and back again. And what we're seeing is this kind of constant return to the idea of light lager, uh, the idea of clean beer, which I definitely want to get to and talk much more about because I know that's how you're positioning fathers. Uh, the idea of clear beer, the idea of crisp beer, the idea of beer-flavored beer. A lot of people have gone down that rabbit hole and come to a similar conclusion. And I'm glad Fathers is here to help answer that. Um

Know your Dad brand

SPEAKER_03 13:45

before we get to clean beer. All right, we know you a little bit more. We know your dad's, we know you're in Connor's house right now. Uh thank you for sharing your past with us. And let's get up to the present. Because, like I said, anyone listening, I think this will be a really an interesting conversation just for the business side of building a brand, founding a brewery. Um, let's get to know how you do that and how you might accomplish that on a national scale. So you already have kind of talked about it, but just first and foremost, why lager? Like, why did you not set out to be like we are going to make two beers, a West Coast IPA and a hazy IPA with complete transparency on the labels and this idea of clean, kind of better for you beer. Why not an IPA? Why lager in the first place?

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Yeah, I mean, I think if you were to look at the kind of sales, beer sales nationally, like it's like 80% loggers, right? The vast majority of sales revenue for beer is loggers. Yeah. And so I think being on the West Coast, you're inundated with, you know, IPAs, but actually broadly, that's not what most people drink. And so for me, I think going after, and I think that was a category, like Joe mentioned, like that had really been ignored. Like people hadn't put a lot of time and effort into there into making something that was really, really good. And so for us, you know, it was the biggest category. We thought it had the best opportunity for kind of reinvention. Um, and so yeah, so that was definitely why we went after it. Um, I saw I heard a really interesting anecdote. We were talking to one of our distributors who's a West Coast distributor, I won't say who who, but one of the big ones. And he's like, I think IPA has killed the beer industry. I was like, oh, that's a statement, you know. But his theory was that, you know, for a generation of drinkers, if you drank beer, it was an IPA, right? And if you didn't like IPA, you didn't like beer. And he's like, when the reality was that like loggers are much more approachable for most people. And so it actually turned off a whole generation of drinkers, turned them off beer because, like, well, I don't like IPAs. And it's like, so I don't like beer. It's like, well, no, you just don't like IPAs. There's a lot, there's much broader kind of set of options here. Um, so that was definitely why we went after it. Um, I think also it's just was our own personal preferences, just the type of beer that we wanted to drink, right? Sure.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

And so um, and I think you're seeing that in the market, right? Like you obviously saw garage beer really emerge. You're seeing Outlaw do really well. Like you're, I think you're seeing people kind of come back to this category, but also not want to drink, you know, the Cours Light that they drank when they were 21, or drink, you know, the Budweiser that their dad drank, right? And so um it just seems like a seemed like a good category generally.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

Absolutely. You know, that trend is not only national, but I would say international. You know, I have a conversation similar to this like almost every day of my life because I've worked in beer for about a decade now. And maybe I don't say it as eloquently or gracefully, but you know, IPA kind of made the beer industry stupid, or at least the craft beer industry, if for no other reason than it just became synonymous with a single beer or a single style of beer. And to your point, if you don't like IPA, then maybe you don't like beer, uh, which just credits uh the majority of beers that are actually made. And it's good to have that perspective and kind of get outside of the bubble of what's immediately in front of you, which can easily be an IPA, a West Coast IPA, a hazy IPA, a double IPA, especially you know, if you live on one of the coasts. But there's a whole world outside of that. Um and I'm glad you landed on Lager to do it. And uh when it comes to actually brewing

Quality Contracting

SPEAKER_03 17:15

uh to your brewer and to your roots in New Zealand there, you know, this came up on the last episode with Fig Mountain. They hadn't announced yet, you know, that they were merging with like Drake's, and that includes like the Bear Republic brand. But they talked about how that was really helping sustain their operations. And you know, they're a logger-centric, logger-focused brewery by no means exclusive to loggers, but this idea of brands supporting uh each other um, you know, into the future is really appealing. And I don't know that model has been around probably since modern brewing began. I don't know if you want to call it contract brewing or what, but it sounds like you have collaborated with uh Del Chilo at one point, five sons, these are both in Martinez, maybe ultimately going to Gordon Birsch and you have your own brewer and your own equipment kind of leading the charge there. But how did you land on this model, first of all, as opposed to making a huge capital investment in your own brewery? And is it working? Is it succeeding? Is it a work in progress? Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Uh yeah, no, uh well, we went through as much as as we were doing the research to figure out how we want to do this. We went through all the we researched everything. We we looked at breweries that were for sale, we looked at ones that had space, we looked at contract brewing. We went through every you know kind of step and process to figure out what was going to be best for us. Yeah. At the core, we had hoped that we could contract brew everything. That's what that's how we're labeling it, if you will, because of the upfront capital cost to build a brewery. And again, the goal that we had this dream of building the next rate American lager brand that would be national, and knowing that there would be constraints no matter what we built if we do that, because you just can't scale that up fast enough. Right. Um, unfortunately, some of the local craft brewers you mentioned, Five Sons Del CL, especially Five Sons, they um they had a little bit of availability and they had the willingness to work with us as long as you know, hard with Harvey around going in and really working with their brewer Mike uh hand in hand. And so that's been an awesome relationship to help us kind of build it and figure out you know, is what we're doing making sense? Do people like it? All that. And then from there, starting the conversations with Gordon Beers, who's got such a great reputation in the industry and um has the ability to to help us grow and scale as much as we want. And he's been great. He loves Harvey, Harvey and him. They they start talking, him and Dan Gordon. We I don't know what they're saying at that point. Um, but you know, it's it's awesome and the beer tastes fantastic. And so it allows us to grow as we as we get more um, as we build our community out and kind of have unlimited scaling ability with that, which I think is to your point earlier, is why you're seeing some of these mergers happen because you know, those fermenters can't sit empty uh on the beer side. And if they do, it's it's a problem. So if we can keep filling them up, there's still a ton of great brands. And I think almost every other industry is uses contract brewing. So I don't think this is like, or contract, if you will, for manufacturing. So I don't think this is a bad thing for beer. I think it can actually be a good thing, and because you still have your own recipes, your own formulas, your own, you know, tips and tricks that you do to make great beer.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Yeah, and I think you know, the thing I'd add is I think that the kind of owning a facility, making your own beer in that facility got mythologized, or whatever the term is, like it got, you know, and like this is the way you do it. Um, and the reality is that the actual quality of the beer coming out of those facilities is actually quite a bit lower than what you'll get at some of these larger facilities that are more sophisticated. And if you were to look at the heritage of like, let's say, Boston Lager and, you know, Sam Adams, right, which is now a multi-billion dollar company, like that was how they were built, right? And so when you're growing really fast, you know, the idea of saying, like, let's plunk $2 million into a facility that's going to be outdated in six to 12 months, and they have to add another facility, another facility, like it's just not actually how you build one of these really big brands. And if you look at the actual kind of economics of building one of these companies, you know, it is essentially impossible to make it profitably and sell it in packages in grocery stores if you're doing it 20 barrels at a time, 40 barrels at a time, 80 barrels at a time. Like you just can't do it. It doesn't, the math doesn't math. It doesn't work, right? You can't compete. And that's why you see four packs that are $20, $22 and that just can't ever reach, you know, escape velocity and scale. So it's like we're moving over to Gordon Bierch, who's one of the most sophisticated brewing operations in the country. They make a lot of the brands that you got everybody around on this podcast knows and loves. Um, and you know, we're doing it 400 barrels at a time instead of 20 barrels at a time. And the amount of labor required to make that, you know, is less, right? Even though you're 20xing the volume. And so, um, yeah, so those are the that's the kind of rationale.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Yeah, and it's yeah, and it's again, and for us, it's like there's some really cool local breweries that we love. And they you can do you can build a phenomenal business that way. But again, you you're you've got your great brew pub, you've got your maybe your food service too, but you're really serving a local. Community, which I think I love. I mean, we love there's a couple great breweries here in uh La Federa that we go to with the family, and it's awesome. And so I think that's a a really cool need, too. And we both knew that um that's not the side we wanted to be on. We did not want to own a brew pub. We did not want to have you know serving that direct beer to people. Yeah. Um there's basically two businesses. Yeah, you make a lot of money that way, too, and it's great business, but it's just not what we wanted to get into.

SPEAKER_03 22:22

So that's frankly, you know, everyone, uh everyone on the show to date, you know, every episode so far has said kind of the same, you know, summarize the state of the of the beer industry, of the craft beer beer industry. Like you said, the math doesn't lie. The reality and the challenge that they're up against. The ones who are finding success are basically reinvesting and doubling down in their tap room as a destination regionality, locality, you know, and that's kind of the way that craft beer is emerging. And maybe what it was historically, beer was always meant to be kind of like this fresh and local thing, you know? Yeah. And then the other side of that is, of course, going to a name like Gordon Beersh, uh, highly respected name, highly respected beer that can allow you to scale without that investment tying you down. Um, are you all at

Taproom or Man Cave

SPEAKER_03 23:10

all interested in creating like a taproom environment where people might be able to come kind of visit and meet fathers and you know, talk to you and try the beer on site, even if it's not being brewed there? Or does economically that not even make sense at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Uh we've thought about it, right? I think we get pushed on it a lot, you know. I think the reality is that running something like that is running a restaurant. Running a restaurant is really hard, right? Yes, and it takes your time and effort and focus. And it's like, you know, we launched packaged products in September and we're already in like 250 or 300 locations in just a few months.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

And so that's you know, 250, 300 customer bases that we're reaching instantaneously, and we're adding them, you know, very quickly. And so, versus if you have a tap room, 90% of the time it's you know, the people you know within a 15-minute drive of that tap room. Sure, you get people that come in and do pilgrimages and get to know the brand and whatever, but it's like it's just it's uh, you know, I I would say Joe and I have this very much as a shared value. Like there's a finite amount of time you have in any given week, right? Sure. And so being like hyper, hyper focused is something that I've observed across all the best entrepreneurs. Like, you can only do so many things, right? And like as soon as we open a tap room, we're running a restaurant and running a restaurant. Now I'm like, okay, how do I get people to go to my tap room instead of how do I get people to go to Primo's in Danville and make sure they're buying our beer there, right? Like I'd much rather spend my time thinking about that than thinking about, you know, how do I get people to my my spot? Yep.

SPEAKER_03 24:41

I'm glad you compare it to the restaurant industry just because I mean the bulk of my background is in New York City. And it's just amazing you realize these restaurants that you think are institutions aren't even turning a profit. You know, how easy it is for them to go away and never come back. And it's shocking. These are names everyone knows and loves and recognizes. Um and the other part of this equation, I guess, is say, you know, again, like if you are operating a small brewery or running your own brew pub, you know, chances are you're also self-distributed or have a very small distribution footprint. You're kind of going in the opposite direction, right? Like you were eyeing national distribution. And I'm assuming

Two beers and three tiers

SPEAKER_03 25:20

you're partnering with wholesalers to do that, correct?

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, right now we're so we're just in that process right now. We've been self-distributing out of the gate just to, again, we wanted to learn. We had never sold a beer before in our life. I don't care how much skincare I sold, I don't care how many tech things Connor sold like, we'd never sold a beer. So we had to do that for a while, really figure it out before we somewhat passed the keys to the, you know, of the beer brand to distribution partners. So now we've been in the conversations with them, getting ready to roll out here in the East Bay and North Bay with the distributor and San Francisco soon. Congratulations. And then wholesale-wise, yeah, talking with all the all the wholesalers. We started Whole Foods was the first retailer to take us on, very much aligned missions with an organic beer. It's a good one, yeah. But talking with all the other retailers as we speak and a bunch of uh announcements coming soon to help push that out, which will then help make the distributors go faster and quickly get full Bay Area coverage and really understand that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Well, and I think the story of like how we got the attention of the distributors is like worth mentioning, right? Please. Because I think there's a lot of brands out there that, you know, kind of wonder, you know, how they do that. Um, at least that's been my observation. And so for us, you know, we have a lot of credibility, right? We both sold our companies, you know, for lots of money. We've done well individually, but within this industry, we're not known quantities, right? And so we knew that we wanted to, you know, target a specific network. And the best way to get the attention of that network was to invest really aggressively in like a, you know, uh a small geographic area that they serviced to get their attention. So it's like, okay, if we go get, you know, a hundred tap handles in this distributor's county, they're gonna be like, oh shit, who are these guys? Right. Like absolutely, you know, and so we just hammered on premise to like build up initial momentum and trial and get the attention of the distributors um as well as the attention of the retailers. And that ultimately led to, you know, us getting them and getting we're getting sprouts and bedmo and more coming on. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:14

Well, you've got to start by doing it yourself and leading by example. Um, people are who are pursuing third-party distribution. How do you answer the question or the objection that there's no more shelf space? There's just nowhere else for distributors to put your product on the shelf in an oversaturated beer market. How did you answer that?

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Or how do you continue? I think well, just like Connor said, we proved it by getting the shelf space. Yeah. Without any without any mandates. We just walked in and started, you start knocking on enough doors, you know, there's there's always handles available. There's always shelf space available if you just keep knocking.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

Oh, I love the optimism. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes you just got to be willing to uh well I think you have to have a product that people like yeah, point of different. I would say that too. The distributors beyond everything else, like wow, you guys really got our attention. They love our we do have a point of differentiation. Yeah. No one's really pursued this clean beer category. No one's not too many, no, not too many craft brewers are walking in and saying we have American lager. They're coming in with, you know, so we had two points of differentiation, both with an American lager and they liked it. Also, big big caveat there. They like the beer. And then a clean differentiation, which they're seeing some of them carry RTDs, they carry alcohol, they carry wine, and they're seeing clean spirits come along too. So they they see the trend happening.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Uh let's uh let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

Let's talk about that right now.

Brown bottles, clear labels

SPEAKER_03 28:30

Like, so first of all, like transparency on your labeling, right? Like historically, why has it been so hard to get the calorie count or the carb count on a beer bottle? Um, do you know anything about the process, about how your brewer does that? You know, just why do you think we're only seeing now increased interest and transparency in calories and carbs and labeling on beer cans and bottles?

SPEAKER_01 28:55

I mean, I think people want transparency. They want to know what they're consuming, right? And I think for a long time, you know, people didn't care because it just wasn't there and it wasn't a topic of conversation. But um, you know, I think that it's the only thing in the grocery store at this point that doesn't have it. So like, why is this the only thing that doesn't have it?

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

And so for us, um, you know, I think that's why it's become so it's an important part of like our story and kind of who we are. And then frankly, I think why it hasn't happened yet is partially the industry doesn't want it, right? Like there's a lot of drinks that have a lot of added sugar, they have a lot of, you know, they have things that like you know, people don't want to know that your double IPA is 350 to 400 calories, right? Or like a hazy IPA has more sugar and carbs than a crispy cream donut.

SPEAKER_03 29:38

Like, yeah, like it's that thing with lactose. Yeah, absolutely. God so in the light lager I'm drinking, like 100 calories, four grams of carbs, uh, of course, no fat, you know, and clear ingredients, you know, filter water, the organic admiral pills we talked about, uh, the helios and the contessa hops and yeast, the the four fundamental ingredients of all beer. Um, it seems so easy, it seems so simple. But the the main thing is there's just there's nothing to hide, at least not in this beer, at least not in this style, in this type of beverage, right? I mean, if anything, that's a low calorie and a low carb count, it's not gonna hurt you. It's nothing to be afraid of, and it's certainly nothing worth concealing. Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

I think the interesting thing too is that we learned is you know, once you label it a uh light beer, you do have to list calories because there's a limit on that. And so that's the one. So if you do look at beer, any light beer will, if they say the word light, they will list it. A few other beers do. So you're also most of the beers craft, otherwise, most large most beer, they don't list it because it's not a rule. You don't have to.

SPEAKER_02 30:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

So why would you? Um now you're setting specs, now you're setting parameters, right? And especially in craft, it's a little harder to hit those specs every time. So um, you know, it just makes it easier, candidly, from like a packaging perspective, too, as a small business. Um, but for us, again, it was about transparency. It was about what can we do? And it, you know, it's um consistency and brewing process allows us to hit these numbers, but more importantly, it's just about transparency. And that that's something I learned. Connor witnessed it. So my brand in skincare was quote unquote part of the clean beauty movement. Um, and our idea there was the same thing: clean, transparent, better ingredients, better for you, better for the planet. Um, and similar there, where there were really no rules or laws. So most of the beauty packaging, this even to this day, it's a lot better now. You don't have to list everything. Now you do, and the rules have changed because of this movement. Um, but you saw a lot of success for both the businesses, brands, and the consumers ultimately adopted it and were into it. And now everyone does it. And collectively, the you know, beauty space is much more transparent than it used to be. Very good. That's what I'd say. And so I don't know if beer and alcohol will get that way, but um, you know, we know that that's the way we want to do it. Um, you see a lot of the German beers doing getting more success lately because of the German purity laws, which are we're also very aligned with how we do it. So nice, nice things happening.

SPEAKER_03 31:48

So, what is clean beer?

Clean Beer

SPEAKER_03 31:50

Like, let's talk about this. Um, what is clean beer? What is clean alcohol? Um, you know, you kind of describe it as dual filtration, ultra fine filtration, reducing heavy metals, chemicals, microplastics, and then of course an emphasis on glass packaging. And presumably that's because aluminum is lined with a thin layer of food-grade plastic when you're drinking from a can or out of a can, which is obviously why you went to bottles. But you tell me this idea of clean beer, clean alcohol. What does it mean to you? How do you market? What is uh how do you go to market with it? What is your elevator pitch for it? What is clean beer?

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Yeah, well, we like really want to start from the ground up and say, well, what are the actual problems? And so you spent about $25,000 and ran all these different beers through labs. So we just went to the top of the Nielsen list and said, let's look at all these beers and see what's in them, right?

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Um and it turns out that, you know, some of them have lead, some of them have arsenic, some of them have, or they all have Roundup. Um, and then one of the more recent phenomons is like people get weird about plastic water bottles. But, you know, one of the pale ales we tested had 40 times the plastic of a plastic water bottle, right? And about 600 grains of sand worth of plastic per liter of liquid. Wow. Um, so just a shocking amount of plastic. And that was not unique to them, right? Um, and as we tested it, what was really interesting was if you looked at where that was versus let's say, you know, a mainstream lager brand, the mainstream lager brand would have 90% less plastic, right? And it's like, well, why? And it turns out that the hops are actually, you know, super absorbers of plastic out of the soil and air is what, you know, what the kind of what the guess is at this point. But they are whatever. They are carriers of just an ass load of plastic, right? And so we said, okay, well, what are the problems? And then we're like, okay, and now let's go fix them, right? And so the way that we fix them, we're a fewfold, right? So first is organic. So any organic ingredients, that gets rid of the lead, the arsenic, and the roundup, right? So it gets rid of those. Um, the second one is the glass bottles. So you talked about it. There's BPF, BPA, right? So BPF is like the, you know, people didn't like BPF, so they came up with BPA, neither or BPA, so they came up with BPF. Neither one of them are good. And those are inside the actual liners of those cans. So those are not good. So the glass bottles are inert so that it doesn't impart anything. Um, if we wanted to get really insane, even the caps have some minor problems. We looked at doing like growth style tops at first, but we're like, I don't know, this is a little too much for a little bit of exposure. But like that was another thing we looked at. And then the third thing was the plastics, right? So, okay, we want to use hops, but the hops are imparting just these, like our beer had double the amount of plastic as the worst beer we tested the first time that we ran it through, right? And so because we dry hop our red and whatever. And so um we're like, well, how do we get that out? And so Harvey devised this filtration method um where we're filtering down to the wavelength of yellow light. It's like four microns. It's like really, really, really small. And that gets out, you know, 99% of the plastic. Um, so we'll be, you know, 90% less than the worst, you know, than you know, a typical lager, right? Yeah. And so, and 99% less than an IPA or a pale ale. And so um, you know, that was the way that we got uh, you know, we got it to be clean.

unknown 35:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:14

So so okay, first of all, I mean it's um well, you say it's kind of shocking. Like without obviously naming any names here, you're saying you lab tested a variety of beers of variety brands across the board. And hops maybe were kind of the biggest culprit, but you found surprising amounts of plastic of lead in those beers that the average consumer would never know or suspect, right? And uh second of all, I guess uh part of what you're saying as well is like you have to have a high quality, high-performing lab and be able to make that investment or have access to it to manage uh those things to begin with. And I've definitely spoken to breweries on the show that are making this investment, anyone who ultimately cares about their beer cares about their lab, right? But I think that's shocking information information for most people, for most craft beer fans, for most for most beer drinkers to hear in the hear in the first place, you know, that what they were drinking, what they might love, what they might enjoy can contain microplastics, can contain lead. Um so how do you continue to like monitor that? Uh, how do you answer that? I mean, first

Organic ingredients

SPEAKER_03 36:20

of all, like in organic ingredients. I remember when I was coming up in beer in New York, like Peak Organic was a was a growing brand and a successful brand, but they found it difficult to grow or scale any further just because the amount of organic ingredients available for malt for hops is limited. Have you found that to be the case as well, which maybe drove your decision of malt, drove your decisions in hops, or has that market also continued to evolve and grow?

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Uh well, from what we're seeing, again, we're only at now a couple years, but we're seeing continued availability. It doesn't, I mean, it would be hard for you know, corezite to switch to organic, right? Like there's not enough there. But for us, from what we've telled, can tell from the different suppliers we've talked with, there's plenty of supply and continually more. And you know, they're willing and able as we grow to sign some contracts for hops and malt to ensure we have that that consistent supply flow. Um, we are looking at redundancies, especially on the malt side, because it takes a lot of malt to make beer. Um so other high quality or organic malts potentially that are out there. Um talking to them now to make sure we do have those backups. But um, it's it's you know, it's definitely available. I think they're at some point down the road, we may hit a supply chain thing. But hopefully, as we keep growing, other brands are starting to do it. Organic as a general like way of life is continually growing, you're gonna see those, you know, those more fields, if you will, transition over malt fields. And I think for like all the consumers out there that are drinking those beers that have that, you know, I think the best way to think about it is you go to the grocery store. You know, if you if you had an organic tomato and a non-organic tomato tested, that non-organic tomato is probably gonna have some of these same things in it. And that's just how the whole grocery store is, right? So that's the whole, that's kind of the point of organic. Um it's it's there, it's something that's a part of it, but it's not like beer specifically is like trying to do a bad thing, it's the general whole food, you know, it's the these the food supply chain, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Yeah, and we tested like other brands, other RTDs, and it was like similar problems. Yeah, the plastic in particular was very much a beer-specific problem, more so, you know, because of the hops. Because of the hops, yeah. Um, which is just weird. It's just like nobody knows that these hops are.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Yeah, and even our organic hops have like, whoa. Yeah, but um, you know, and the more the beers, right? Like we're filtering, but other brands do filter, so that's gonna help. So there's there's some paths for sure. And again, we hope to not just make a great brand, but educate a bit and and learn more together. And then the microtextic, they're in everything. Of course. I mean, that's the weird thing. It's not even just food, they're in every I don't know. You go through a point of testing where I was like, I don't know what to eat anymore. I mean, it's easy to do.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

You know, this is honestly, it made me a little bit less of plastic, less less afraid of plastic water bottles because I'm like, I don't know, these beers have 20, 40 times as much. So I'm like, it seems fine. I think um one thing I'll comment on the kind of commercial availability of organic crops. Like at one point we were like switching hops, and somebody's like, oh, sorry, we'll sold out like something there was a particular hop that got um basically like knowed by like you know, Europe, right? Europe's like, oh no, no, you can't use that. That's not actually approved. And so there's a surge to this other one that we were using. It was the Nelson solver. Yeah, I think it was the Nelson. And um, and anyways, so I think what's driving it is a lot of Europe is pushing towards more organic alcohol as well. And so they're really driving kind of the, you know, the conversion of fields from conventional to organic. Um, and so for us, there should be a lot of availability. Um, you know, just isn't at this point a lot of brands in America that are that are moving that direction.

SPEAKER_03 39:44

Excellent. I mean, again, I'll say it's kind of shocking to think about it. And I almost don't know how to answer it, you know. But your so your uh the definition of clean beer, of clean alcohol, is basically you're saying organic ingredients, uh, glass packaging. And can you just tell us for both the brewers listening, for consumers listening, like what does something like ultra fine dual filtration mean? Does that literally just mean you're filtering your beer twice over?

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Uh it's it means we we actually have a three-step uh filtering process. So a lot of beers are filtered once through like a sheet filter, which we do do, and then we've essentially, as Connor mentioned, we've built out a second two stages of filtering that helps just reduce continually gets essentially gets smaller and smaller and smaller because in the initial stage a sheet filter press, which is most breweries do use, is going to get all the heavy, thick stuff, the extra yeast or enzymes left. And then each step after that gets finer and finer and finer until you have just like very clear, very clean beer. Yes. Um, which funny enough, being in the lager category has actually even been perfect for us with that because of that method. The first thing people say they tastes really clean, tastes really crisp, right? Because we are literally cleaning it up. And I think us using higher quality ingredients and hops even allowed for that filtering because you lose a little bit of flavor with filtering to help like stand up. So we actually over-indexed on the amount of ingredients and like, if you will, taste in there, like IBUs to help offset that loss.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

One of the most fascinating parts though, like during this process, because we had to test different filtering types. Oh, yeah. And um, you know, one of them, it was like, oh, well, it like stripped out all the foam. It's like, well, that's a problem, right? So yeah. So you like you had to try different methods. And then um, but one of the methods that really popped up that was interesting was like, like, oh, this is like a paper plastic filter. Like, what does that mean? You know? And we used it, and then we saw a huge and we tested it at each stage, like pre-filtration, after the first filter, after the second filter, after the third filter, to see like which one was working and which one wasn't. And we saw a huge surge after this one, after this plastic filter. And it's like, oh, that's like one of the most commonly used, if not the most commonly used, filtration mechanism for most beverages you drink, is like this like paper plastic filter that turns out to actually shed a shitload of plastic into your drink while it's filtering out the other stuff. And so it's like, yeah, and apparently the uh, I don't know if it's the EPA or the FDA, but they're up the ass of a lot of these beverage companies right now because they're using these filters that are shedding all this plastic into their drinks.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

And it's an unknown thing, right? No one's doing it, it's an unknown people just don't, we no one knew about it. It's just it's not even like we used to microwave things in a plastic tub, right? Like we didn't know. Yeah. No, hey, these, so they're there for taste and purity and actually like safety of drink, but then they impart these microplastics that you can't taste and no one would know, and you can't see them. Yeah. Um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:32

Well, yeah, no, it's in the air, it's in our bodies. You know, I so it's it's just again, it's really interesting because like the amount of people I interact with that say like they don't like IPAs, for example, like the first thing that comes to mind is like, well, they're just saying they don't like an aggressively or like exceptionally bitter beer. But it gets more complicated than that. I often hear feedback like I think I'm allergic to hops, or just in the general sense of like, why do I feel so sick after drinking this like double, tip, triple, dry hopped, hazy, 8% plus IPA? And there's a variety of answers to that question, but it's a recurring theme, and there's multiple answers to it. So, one, yes, it's high alcohol, but it's disguised to taste like fruit juice. But I think also you just don't know the full extent of what's living in that can. And there are a lot of high-quality IPA producers out there that I'm sure you're gonna get some flack and feedback from. And I probably will, I probably will too, from for this episode. This isn't exactly like an anti-IPA show, but again, we're we're just trying to kind of address this change and this shift in the market. So the idea of clean alcohol is really compelling, and that's what's led so many of us back, again, to clean to clear to crisp lager beer. But I really appreciate you making the investment to actually lab test and verify. By what can be in your beer? What might be living in that 16-ounce silver can that you might not know about? And it's it's kind of shocking. It's kind of shocking.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

Yeah, I mean, honestly, it was shocking to us, right? Like part of the reason we did it was to validate to us like, is this idea worth pursuing? Is this idea real? Like, will this actually have a big impact on people? Yeah. And so, you know, that was part of the reason that we did it. And I think after that, you know, Joe, having come from the kind of clean industry, he's like, dude, we got to be buttoned up. Like we can't, this can't be voodoo, this can't be hand wavy, like we've got to like do all the testing. And it's like they cost a lot of money, right? Running a microplastics lab on one beer is like $800, right? And so you have to test that. And we're not just testing it once, we're testing it multiple times to make sure it's real. You gotta test all these other brands, and that's one test, right? Each test you run, okay, heavy metals, that's another $400. Okay, you want to run PFAs, that's another $300.

PFA PSA

SPEAKER_01 44:55

We didn't even get into the PFA stuff. Like what the uh there's a chemical called P PFOAs.

SPEAKER_03 45:02

What it is for anyone listening.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

Yeah, so PFADs are like the you know, the forever chemicals, right? And so there's one called PFOA. Um, that's the stuff you find in Teflon that everybody freaks out about, right? Yeah, so there's a brand, it's one of the best, most drunk brands in America, right? And this is not unique to them, but they were the worst, you know, the ones we tested. Um so the old limit used to be six parts per million of PFOA. That's how much you're supposed to have in drinking water. And then in 2016, they're like, hey, this shit's so bad. We're gonna lower the limit by a thousand X, okay, to six parts per billion. Well, this company was at 20 parts per million, so at 3,000 times the amount of PFOA that we definitively know causes cancer. Like, there's no question about it, right? Like it's very much 3,000 times the amount you're supposed to have, right? And so, yeah, I think uh, and again, to Joe's point, I think one thing we do want to make sure is not to vilify the beer industry. Like this is in, you know, this is a problem across food, right? Like this whole kind of clean food movement um or clean alcohol movement is something I expect to have happen across categories. Obviously, we spent the most time studying the beer industry just because we wanted to make sure that like we were fixing every problem we could find, right? Um, but yeah, it's it's crazy, dude. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 46:19

Like I mean, I think that I appreciate you evaluating beer as food because it often gets lost. You know, beer is food, beer is an agricultural product, not just um like you know, macro industrial product. So giving it the same evaluation that the food industry has in recent years, I think is well just well done, well deserved. I mean, you're definitely making a believer and a fan out of me. I mean, I already is that to begin with. Um, but it's not just me. Like you're you're these beers are racking up awards

Award season and seasonals

SPEAKER_03 46:50

across the board. I know both of them have won the World Beer Awards Gold uh just recently. I think that was just last year. And they're among the top-rated loggers uh on Untapped, um, which you can tell me, you know, I've it's so I love it when Untapped comes up on this show. Some people love it, some people hate it. Um provokes an opinion because, you know, the consensus is it can hurt or help or build or not our business, you know. So people are actually looking at these ratings. So the fact that in a short period of time you've racked up some gold medals that you're highly rated at Untapped shows that people are responding to this idea, uh, not just in a resurgence of lager beer in clean beer, in clean lager beer. Um, do you have any intention in the near future of adding anything else to your lineup? Are you gonna start doing seasonals? Are you gonna invest in other styles? Or for right now, is it the blue and the red until we hit national distribution? I've got like six more SKUs that I'm rolling out.

SPEAKER_00 47:55

No, don't ask me that. You always want something more. No, yeah, no, the number one, I think again, we I think we said it earlier in like all of the biggest beer brands really in the country but in the world, they have one, maybe two hero products that are 90% of their business. And so we know we want to stick to just our red and our blue. It would be cool to try some other formulas, especially with some is the talent that we have within Harvey, our brewer. But we also know that not to interrupt you.

SPEAKER_03 48:22

Are these are these Harvey's recipes like at the end of the day? Are you maybe you told him what you wanted and this is how we brought it to life? This is these are Harvey's recipes.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

There, I would say it's more iterative than that. Yeah, you know, obviously Harvey's been making lagers for a really long time, but like we started out and said, okay, this is kind of what we want. He said, Okay, you know, and and and he also was like, and these are my Harvey's a co-founder, right? So he'sn't just some like Yeah, he's a brewer for hire. Oh, yeah. So and we wanted, we knew how important flavor was to kind of success. And so, you know, we said, okay, hey, this is kind of what we're thinking. And he said, okay. And he, you know, he's like, yeah, this is what I'm thinking. Like, we actually weren't originally going to do um, you know, uh kind of low calorie, right? That wasn't something that was like really, but he really pushed for that because he as a drinker cares a lot about that. And he's like, and I think I can do it really, really well enzymatically processed, right? So it lowers the calorie out. Um, but then it was like, okay, hey, I think actually like this IPL style we really like, but like it's kind of under under leverage. We actually started with like, hey, can you do a dialed back IPL with the red, right? And we're gonna not gonna call it an IPL because that turns off too many drinkers, but like, you know, and so I think it was a fairly iterative process where like we'd make a batch, we'd try it, okay. We like this, we don't like that, make this tweak, make that tweak, do a bunch of blind tastings. And that was you went through, I mean, 50 to 100,000. We'd do a lot of beer.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

Because our we wanted to make sure they were at least first level. So each batch was 20 barrels, so it was, you know, you're you're making a lot of beer at a time to figure it out. But we we didn't want to do a small, tiny batch, and then you scale up a step and it just doesn't, it doesn't work. You need to have some sort of minimum size to really know if it's commercially viable formula, yeah. Um, and we used that all that iteration to also figure out our filtering and clean side. So it was a dual process, and yeah, that's kind of I think a big part of it was you mentioned the awards and stuff. We knew this would never work if it wasn't the best tasting beer. It had to be the best tasting American lager that we thought we could make first and foremost, and then we had to make it clean. It couldn't be, I think the brands that in any any industry, it was Same and Beauty, if it doesn't work or it doesn't taste good, people aren't gonna adapt to it. They don't, you know, like personal belief our choices are always gonna be based on taste or like you know perception of it working. And so we had to do that, you know, first and foremost. Um and now we'll, you know, hopefully we can continue to to get a few more awards and win and submit because again, we're we're spending money on the on the juice for sure. I think our ingredient costs are much higher than most than anything you'd see in a lager for sure. Um, but that's very intentional because we want to be the best tasting out there.

SPEAKER_03 50:52

Yeah. And don't let me interrupt what you were about to say before, just in terms of adding additional, additional skews, developing more recipes and more beers in the clean beer category. Like, can you see that in the near future? Is there anything in the pot, in the kettle, so to speak? Or for right now, is it red and blue kind of marching from west to east?

SPEAKER_01 51:11

Yeah, I was just joking. It's definitely red and blue. And I think that, you know, I always think about it as you go into a restaurant, how many tap handles are there, right? Four, eight. Obviously, you have the big craft ones, you know, there's 20, but like there's a limited number. And like the idea that you're gonna get in two, three, four, five SKUs in there is just unlikely, right? Yeah. And so I think in general, you know, and Joe saw this in his business, where like, you know, one skew that was the vast majority of the revenue for the company. And so for us, putting all of our effort and time and dollars behind, you know, um, both making these the best beers around and also then getting them into the hands of as many people as possible is ultimately how you win, right? And how you drive, frankly, you know, yeah, like how you make it profitable, right? Like you just can't, you know, running 10 different styles in small batches and trying to sell it, you know, for $12.99 to six pack is just not possible, right? You just can't do it. And so, um, yeah.

Craft on Craft

SPEAKER_03 52:10

You know, I'm gonna ask one more question um before we move on to kind of uh our lightning round and like a rapid fire questions I love to ask everyone at the end of every episode. But this has been a little bit of controversial content to date and oh so much fun. So I really appreciate you joining No Life to Loger. Um this has come up before uh on some previous episodes, and just this idea if um, you know, if craft beer, if the term craft kind of still like applies and encapsulates what's happening in this industry, you know, originally it was kind of like micro, microbreweries, and that evolved into craft, and the beer industry continues to evolve in response. So I guess just from your point of view, fan founding a new brand, a new brand in recent years with national ambitions based on two core lager beers, would you call this craft beer? Do you ultimately consider father's a craft brewery, or do you consider this the new standard for beer, for beer beer, for beer-flavored beer across the board?

SPEAKER_00 53:10

Um I I wouldn't necessarily I it's funny. I think in some ways people think about it as craft. I wouldn't label us as craft, but because I I think if you're craft, you should probably be making the beer yourself and selling it in like your own brewery and along with distributing out to other places. Um at the same time, I want to be sure that people understand like we own this company, we are taking care of it, we are making sure this is the best tasting tear possible, beer possible. We're not, you know, a large multinational company that owns a bunch of beers. And I think that's a very distinct difference. So I'm not sure the middle ground we're in, but you know, I think the word craft can be is a great word, and I think it should be used as long as it's used the right way. I think there's some big brands that still use craft, and it's like, I don't know that you're a craft anymore. Um I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 53:53

I think there is for me. I think when I think of craft, I think of more of a flavor profile than anything else. It's like a flavor profile plus an ethos and like uh to your point, an ownership thing. It's like we own the company, we are making the beer, right? Harvey's making everything, designing everything, we're using other people's facilities, but like we're making it. Um and uh yeah, I think the thing that Joe wants to be careful of is, you know, for me, there are two different business models that are emerging, right? Like, you know, you're either Coca-Cola, or like, you know, Coca-Cola doesn't own any restaurants, and there's a reason for that, right? Or you're a restaurant, right? You make beer, it costs you two or three dollars a beer, you sell it for seven, eight, nine dollars a pint, you make eight to ten different styles and small batches, and you know, half your revenue is food, right? And so, and that model works really, really well. And so for me, you know, uh I think that's often where the word like craft is going. Um, but I don't know, I'd still call us a craft beer. I'd call us a craft beer for sure. Yeah, just it tastes way fucking better. Well, yeah, pardon my language.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

Yeah, don't know not at all.

SPEAKER_03 55:03

No censorship on no life to lager. I mean, uh I think the simplest way to approach the term craft is with quality. Like craft in and of itself in the dictionary is a good thing. You can see the Brewers Association definition of craft beer and craft breweries, it just changes year over year. It continues to evolve with the industry. And it's just how do you think about this? I think in terms of flavor profile, transparency, authenticity, you know, those are kind of the most important elements as opposed to necessarily pointing fingers so much as to who exactly is brewing it or where exactly it's being brewed or whether you own the brewery or not. If you're invested in the craft, uh, the quality of your beer that qualifies. Um, and yeah, and people need a good story behind it. People need something to believe in. I think people still need something to support uh when they're drinking their beer, whatever their choice may be. Um, so yeah, I mean, here is to the craft brewery, uh craft brewing industry as it continues to develop. And here's to raising the bar for beer in the beer industry across

No Life 'Til Leather

SPEAKER_03 56:10

the board. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 56:12

Why did you name it no life till lager?

SPEAKER_03 56:14

Uh well, it is a subtle reference uh to no life to leather, being a metal head and a Metallica fan. Okay. But it represents um the journey that we all seem to be on together and everyone who's listening to this show, that we've gone down the rabbit hole of more and now we want less. And that's not in terms of quality, not in terms of value. We still want flavor, we still want impact, we still want beer that tells a story. Uh, but maybe it doesn't need to be necessarily high alcohol. Maybe it doesn't need to be over the top with flavor, maybe it should taste like what it was intended to be uh historically up until present day, you know. So here is to lager beer, and I see uh a lot of hope and a lot of faith and sustainability uh in the industry ahead uh that's more lager-centric. And it's frankly what's keeping me in the game. So it's uh it's selfish as well. It's for personal reasons, you know. But yeah, no laugh to lager, and you know, all my metal head friends still help me produce this. So shout out to uh our producer, Jeremy Bachelor, as he works to go host. Um so on that

Light beer vs near beer

SPEAKER_03 57:20

note, a few things I like to ask everyone before we wrap up. Um, non-alcoholic beer, uh, the rise, uh, the dialogue, the volume around it, the growth and the category in recent years. Um typically I ask just kind of what you think about that as a brewery that's producing alcoholic beer. Um, but I think for you, I'd also just really like to know if you consider your light lager 4.2% alcohol. Uh, is that part of like an answer to this question that people are drinking less year-round and they can do that with both your beers, frankly, being 5% and under. Um, just how do you feel about the rise in non-alcoholic beer? Can you see yourself ever producing or investing in it? And where does fathers kind of fall into that equation as a low alcohol logger and light logger?

SPEAKER_01 58:07

Yeah, I mean, uh, for me, I was very much not a believer in the non-alcoholic movement for a while. And then, you know, I was like, all right, let's do it. You know, so I bought a bought a six-pack and uh, you know, it was athletic at the time and tried it. And I was like, oh, like I think my body got tricked into thinking this is like beer. You know what I mean? Like I felt a little bit of the same euphoria. I felt a little bit of the same, you know, uh, yeah, I'd had a I just had a similar experience. Now, I didn't end up being kind of a longtime consumer of it, but I think if you were to look at the people who do drink it, it's often people who drink beer, right? Like they drink beer on the weekends and they might have a non-athlete or a non-alcoholic beer during the week, right? Yeah. Um, I think that in terms of us brewing it or not brewing it, you know, we want to stay really focused on the category that we're in. Um, but you know, never say never. It's definitely the number one thing we get asked for. You know, number one would be uh non-alk, and number two would be, you know, like an IPA are the two things that we can ask for in terms of SKU expansion. So never say never in terms of us getting there. We already have a white label that looks really sick that could be a good third one. But uh but yeah, I think uh but I think I've become a believer in it as a you know broader movement because again, you do get a lot of the flavor, you do get for whatever reason, I swear it just like your body gets tricked a little bit and like, oh, it's like, dude, I was I was at the Expo West and we went to the um we went to uh the Guinness booth and they poured me uh a non-out Guinness and a regular Guinness side by side, and we both tried to guess it and I actually got it wrong. I couldn't tell the difference, right? So it's like it was wild. So I think um, so yeah, so I'm a I'm a believer in the movement now, but um initially wasn't.

SPEAKER_00 59:47

Yeah. And I think again for us, we're already trying to tell a pretty complex story about like what is clean beer. We're trying to be a great American lager, we're trying to be clean beer. So also adding in the non-alk story, I think, can get a bit I think we have to get big enough to where people are like, I only drink fathers and sometimes I want to have fathers non-alk. So I think I'd like to get to that, you know, kind of size of a business first before we did it. Versus if we do it now, I think uh the consumer, the distributor, the retailer is like, where are you non-alk? Are you clean? What are you? Are you both? Like, and so I think that differentiation is important when when again we're trying to somewhat carve a new path within beer.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

We'll just wait till we start selling as much beer as Guinness and then the perfect time. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:27

You know, yeah. No, I believe, I love the ambition. You know, I get a lot of praise for Guinness Zero Zero and those dark malts. I mean, again, I think malt in general, you know, is the backbone and the soul of beer. It like can really help with more of like a lingering finish and aftertaste in non-alf beer in the case with Guinness Zero Zero. So it is hard to tell the difference. Um, and also again, like the flavor of malt, it's just nice to be reminded of it. You know, that's what I definitely taste in your uh in your light lager here. Um so uh here is to increase uh yeah, increase growth and progress in the non-out category. But you know, I love again that people can drink like a 4.2% light lager and feel good about it and not feel bad about themselves, or to the point of like they necessarily have to go to non-out because they don't trust themselves around what they might be drinking otherwise, you know? Um uh

Crazy Mountain

SPEAKER_03 1:01:20

and also so we've seen an increased investment in like celebrity non-alk lagers in recent years. Um I always love, I love to ask people what they think about that. But here again, for you, a little specific and a little different as like a startup beer brand here. Just so one, uh I'd love to know your idea of like what partnerships make sense. Because typically breweries and brands, you know, they have limited funds to invest in partnerships in social media. There was a recent write-up on beer crunchers just talking about how like the way you're running your Instagram can make or break your business, that may or may not be true. I would just love to know from you who would you consider ideal, um, just ideal partners as you build out fathers. And do you see uh a necessary investment and equal return on social media as you're on this journey?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:18

I mean, yeah, go ahead. If you want to start it. Sure. I mean, I think, you know, we we both built our careers on social, right? Like my that's why I ask. Yeah. Yeah, my company was in the influencer space. His company was one of the best in the world in influencers. So we're clearly believers in the space. I think historically, I was very, you know, I think the uh influencer-founded brands or celebrity founded brands often were kind of boomer bust, right? And mostly bust. And so just because you get an initial spike off of their name, but then, you know, people actually perceive the quality of the product to be lower often, right? Just because, like, oh, well, this is only doing well because it's so and so's brand, not because it's actually the best brand, right? Um, with that said, I mean, you were just observing that, you know, in the beauty industry, there's some brands that are celebrity founded that starting to change. Have had some staying power.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:05

Yeah, it's starting to change a little bit. I think I think like I think the partnerships, whether it's a partnership with a celebrity founder or a partnership with a celebrity founder, I think those can all work really well. I think again, it has there has to be behind it at the end of the day, I think I believe I truly believe every brand has to have a purpose for existing. Whether that's like I think what will where you see a lot of failure in these in these partnerships is it's really forced and it's not like a true coexistence. And so if you as a brand have a whether you're celebrity founded or not, if you have a belief and a core existence of why you exist, ours is making the cleanest, greatest American lager possible. Okay, now we're working on something. So then who would, if we did bring on partnerships or otherwise, who would be the right partner for that? Who fits that profile? Not just somebody because they're popular, but who would actually be like, yeah, they're into our mission, they're gonna be down for like our high quality, they're gonna be like into the testing, they're gonna really like they naturally have to fit in. And if we start to see something like that come out through our different connections and you know, kind of early partnerships, great, then we'll build it out more. Um, and so I think you see that in in most industries, right? Like, I think Garage Beer is doing a really good job in the beer industry with the Kelsey brothers because like they drink, they've been very clearly been beer fans their whole lives. They they are from you know Ohio, they drink beer and they're gonna go like everything is aligned very well. It's like I get the mission, and I believe that they actually would sit there and drink that. Yeah, right. I've seen him. We've been we've hung out with him a lot, and he's slamming garage before, right? So I love it. And he really does live and breathe it. And whereas like, you know, and I think that happens a lot, right? You see, you saw the uh what the Clooney's, what was Clooney's tequila brand? Casamigos, Casamigos, and it was just like easy drinking tequila. They just launched an Ana today. Interesting, yes, indeed. But like they were the first, there were these cool guys, they're you know, the whole vibe made sense. Like, and you hadn't really thought about tequila that way of like drinking it on the rocks, and now you are. Now it's different again. Tequila's moving, but 10 other brands launched with celebrities around it, but you didn't feel the same like vibe because you didn't feel like it connected to like, are those guys really doing it, or they just want to put their name on a brand and get some money? So, again, I think it comes back to they can be very effective. I think social media is incredibly important. I think at the end of the day, the winning um brands and regardless have people walking in the door asking for it versus relying on people coming in and discovering. That's the like current consumer model. Um, doesn't matter how many retailers you have, if people aren't walking in like looking for it because they saw it in social. I don't know that you can make it these days as a new brand. I see. So, how does social media translate to in real life? That's how it translates. Yeah. At the end of the day, you know, it's hard in beer because you're generally not all national. So if you're local, how do you get a local, really strong following of people walking in and be like, I heard this is in this Whole Foods now? I need fathers. Yeah. And that's our goal.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:51

Adam, we gotta we gotta run. We're late for an important uh. Yeah, that's our closet.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:57

Let's let's move toward wrapping this up. Um

Last word on decoction

SPEAKER_03 1:06:00

Just for shits and giggles, one in one word, one reply. Decoction mashing, yes or no? And I'm assuming these beers are not decocted, but uh tell me, yes or no? No. And we're just gonna leave it at that because usually it turns into a much longer-winded explanation.

Last words from Fathers

SPEAKER_03 1:06:15

And last question to anyone pondering their first beer at 21, give or take, their last beer at 101, give or take. Why should it be fathers? And which fathers should it be, the red or the blue?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:27

Ooh. Um, I mean, I think it's personal preference, right? You find people either like one or the other often. Like I'm a big red guy, Joe's a big blue guy, Harvey's a blue guy. So I think you typically just find one you really like and stick with it. Um, in terms of why you should. Um, to your point on untapped, right? Like I think the blue is now the highest-rated lager, at least in California, if not the country, on untapped. It's quite up, it's up there. And the red's real close behind. And so it just tastes really it just tastes really good. It's great, and it'll feel good about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:57

So I'll give you a take on it. If it's your first beer 21, go with the light. And if you make it to 101, you know, heck yeah, and go with the full logger. Get a little easier. Not the diesel. But yeah, your first beer, you need you got to start light with that first beer. I think you know, we want, as we mentioned earlier, we want the beer to survive, and so you got to start light and not a lot to it, and then develop that profile, and then you go red.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:17

Well said. Uh, well, to you,

Goodnight and Good Lager

SPEAKER_03 1:07:20

Connor, to you, Joe, to you, fathers, I will say thank you for being to the point, and thank you for your transparency, and thank you for joining No Life Till Logger. So if you like what you're hearing, I guess you just heard here the value of social media. So, yes, like, follow, subscribe, No Life Till Logger. Help us hit the road and make a better kind of beer show and go out and support your local fathers. Support your fathers, support your dad, get your dad a new beer, or if you're a dad becoming, or if you're a new dad like I am, everyone needs a beer. I can't imagine being a father without it. So as we get to where we're going, I will say good night and good lager to you, Joe and Connor, to you, fathers. Thank you very much. Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:06

Thanks, Adam. Cheers.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:07

Thanks, Adam.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:08

No life to lager. No life to logger.