Episode 63 | Warren Jeffs Said I Cut Up Babies: Sienna Haze (part 2)

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In Part 2 of The Jaden Jeffs Podcast with his sister Sienna, she describes being pulled by “revelations” to move with her mother’s family to Fargo, North Dakota, receiving a message claiming she had venereal disease, and trying to start work and businesses while enjoying a brief period of freedom. As more of their father’s family moved in, a harsh hierarchy and conflict intensified, especially around rules, “worthiness,” and even dogs, leading to isolation, secret texting, and punishments after screenshots were taken from her phone. Sienna recounts being cut off from Mother, moving between “good” and “bad” houses, enduring vivid late-night trainings and accusations of extreme crimes, losing pets, and watching leaders bend rules while controlling others. She later reconnects with family, rejects pressure to marry into another group, leaves the lifestyle, and discusses mental health, individuality, and her art business, PaperGardenArt.com.

01:05 Fargo Move Order
07:45 Winter Survival Mode
10:45 Freedom Then Family Arrives
13:04 Dog Drama Hierarchy
18:34 Lonely Internet Escape
29:34 Terrestrialized Ultimatum
38:36 WiFi Deep Dive
40:57 Caught By Screenshots
45:44 Exiled And Shamed
50:19 Mechanical Room Breakdown
52:25 Rash and Relocation
53:09 Mothers Forced Out
54:32 Girls Move Without Her
55:10 Alone With Mothers
56:27 Suicidal Thoughts Surface
57:37 Back With Good People
57:56 Midnight Revelations Marathon
59:49 Fear and Silence Rules
01:02:05 South Dakota Land Rush
01:02:39 Dogs Taken Away
01:04:33 Sheriff Becomes Escape
01:05:56 Scribes and Selective Punishment
01:07:31 Downgraded and Rebellious
01:10:39 Hegeman Permission Control
01:11:39 Getting Saffy the Puppy
01:12:38 Jaska Goes Missing
01:16:04 Telling Mom the Truth
01:17:59 Girls Cut Her Off
01:19:36 Williston With Good Girls
01:21:20 Dogs Trigger Isolation
01:23:13 Cameras and False Accusations
01:25:21 Begging to Leave
01:26:27 Escape to Horus
01:27:28 Learning the Real Dad
01:28:45 Tarantula Targeted
01:30:54 Two Month Reality Crash
01:32:30 Barlow Visit and Marriage Pressure
01:35:03 Why She Finally Left
01:37:13 Fast Freedom Spiral
01:39:23 Forgiveness and Tyrants
01:43:03 Idaho Trauma and Healing
01:44:39 Rexburg Existential Reset
01:45:41 Escaping Rexburg Trauma
01:47:33 Starting Over in North Dakota
01:48:53 Unlearning the Rush
01:49:32 Boundaries and Distance
01:52:17 Individuality After Cults
01:55:42 Seeing Cults Everywhere
01:58:02 Depression and Identity Loss
02:01:48 Mental Health and Victimhood
02:07:35 Did Dad Dismantle the Cult
02:18:01 Art Business and Farewell

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

And then they wanted to like line the men up so we could decide who we wanted to marry. It was insane. And I think I had just tasted enough freedom and I had talked to enough guys that I was like, hell to the no. I will never, ever live this life. We got a tarantula spider. And it was kind of like my pet. And it shed its skin and everything, and I was just obsessed with this thing. It would crawl all over me. And and someone told father. And so he sent this message saying that my spider had killed a bunch of people. So I heard everything he said that I did and the babies I cut up, and I was just sitting there like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. This is part two of the podcast I did with my sister Shianna. So if you haven't seen the first one, go watch that one. This one will make a little more sense. Enjoy the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

We were it was a Sunday, and all of a sudden we get a call, and the mothers are in on the phone for a few minutes, and then they come and they're like, I guess it's for you. And so me and Jas go in our room and um it was Mel on the phone. And she read us this message from father telling us that we were supposed to go live in Fargo, North Dakota with mother and all of her children. And it specifically named every single one of her children, it specifically named that we were supposed to go to Fargo, North Dakota, and um it also it told me I don't remember if it told Jasca this, but it told me that I had had venereal disease and that Heavenly Father had healed me of it, and I had to stay strictly stay clean and pure to not get it again. And what I didn't realize is by this time you had heard tons of crazy messages, but I hadn't heard any of that crazy stuff. So when he was saying this, I was devastated. And this is embarrassing, but the thing about it is like the week before I had had a really bad UTI. Because yeah, we won't say why, but um we can say why, but I don't want them to know why. But it kind of became a punishment, like but I got a UTI because I like after so many corrections from Naomi Jessup, then like I wouldn't let myself like go to the bathroom and stuff to try and punish myself because I felt so wicked. I don't know, because I was so immoral. But anyway, I had had a UTI like the week before, and then I get this message that I had had venereal disease, and it just confirmed that it was true. Because I just figured that's what venereal disease was. I had no idea. I had no idea what venereal disease was, and I still hardly I mean I know what it is now, but anyway, so it just confirmed it in my head. I was like, wow, I've been healed. Anyway, so um we were told that um Jaden was gonna come and pick us up, and we were gonna go meet mother, and we were gonna move to North Dakota, and father and in our message, father said$12,000 to give us$12,000 to move. And so me and Jask, we just hung up the phone and we went and started packing, and we decided we were not gonna tell anybody what we were doing, and they were all just like standing in the doorway, just like, what is going on? And we were just like, Finally, we are leaving this place. And so we told them we were like, somebody's coming to pick us up in like three hours, and they're coming to pick us up and we're going. And I don't know what went on in their heads, but I was so happy. I was just like, thank God I am getting out of here. So you came and picked us up, and we drove through a snowstorm that entire night, and that was miserable. You were so tired. But anyway, we got to Denver and was that time kind of relieving for you?

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Oh yeah. Well, kinda, kinda, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

It's it was definitely relief for me because I had since this Well this is what finish. No, I'm just saying this is backtracking for years and years I had had this weird obsession with mother. It was like I was so attached to her in a weird way because I kept being separated from her. So it was like anytime I got to see her, she was just like my whole focus. And then I didn't get to see her for so long and had heard all these bad things about her, and now we were finally going to see her, and it was just like there was finally some hope in my life because of her. I don't know, it's so hard to explain. It's gotten it's taken me years to get over that obsession with her. Because it's like I'm attached to her, but in such a weird way. I don't know how to explain it.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Well, we gotta tell people a little bit more about this whole nail me Jessup Revelation thing. And the only reason why like honestly, part of the part where she hurt people and stuff, like that's really bad. But the part where she duped all those guys, like she she duped grandfather Meryl, she duped Rich Jessup. They were they they were buying her things.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

They bought her a car, they were paying for her travel. She traveled all over. She said she was atoning for people like father did, like with Hurricane Katrina and stuff. They were she used all her brothers, though.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

It was like she arranged everything in their lives.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

She was starting a priesthood school.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Dude, I find it so funny they all fell for that.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

I know, but it's partly who she was, and I don't know. It's so crazy. But what's weird is this is about the time Sam Bateman started his thing too.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

And you know that was Anna May.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Yeah. Yeah, it was it was insane.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Like, I don't know if Sam Bateman would have ever even done his thing if it wasn't for Anna Mae, who's one of Dad's wives, yeah. Uh basically giving them uh the authority.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

So she's yeah, let's talk about this later. Okay. I have some input on that.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Alright.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Um, so we moved to or we go to Denver, pick up mother, you know, take make our trips to Oklahoma to move them up to Fargo. We move everybody up to Fargo. We live in a hotel for like three days, and we we had never been on our own like that. Like you had been with your uncles. Mother had had her brothers. Well, mother had kind of been on her own, but you know, her brothers had helped her a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

We had been with our uncles, so we'd never Yeah, so when we went before them, you know, they had got us a house.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

We usually had like uncles helping us or like giving us a job or helping us figure stuff out, but this time it was like we were by ourselves. Far away. Do not talk to a single soul, not even Grandfather Meryl. Do not talk to anyone, do not see anyone. You go and you make your own way, you get you a house, and you live by yourselves. And that was hard. It was hard. We go to North Dakota and we find this house. Oh, it was January and it had barely snowed like 18 inches. We had never seen winter like that.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

It was like it was negative 20.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

It was negative 20, but it felt like negative 30. We had never been in that wind, we had never seen that much snow on the ground for so long, and it was insane. I remember us unloading the trailer. We rented the first house we found. Like, we just rented whatever house. And but because we didn't have anywhere to live, and I don't know, we just did not know anything. Anyway, so we rent this house, we're moving in, and every five minutes we would have to go warm up because we did not have the winter clothes that North Dakota requires. We had zero fucking idea. It was insane.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Well, it's just negative twenty for a couple weeks. It's pretty cold, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:41

Well, it's negative twenty, but then the wind chill, it gets down to negative forty sometimes, and it's it's very humid there, so you'll just freeze. Yeah. Anyway, so we moved there in January, rent our house, you know. Father did give us$12,000, so we had the first couple months of payment and stuff. And then the job search began, and that was insane. You guys were like going to temp agencies, and you guys were going to like what do you call those places that work for a day places that give you a job for a day.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Temp agency.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

Yeah. And they would give you guys all manner of jobs, and you guys would come home and tell us all these stories, and it was like it was hilarious, but also just weird at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

And that's when I worked at the DI for a couple days.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

And you worked at the DI, goodwill. Goodwill. And mother went and did laundry at a hotel, and it was just things I had never thought of before. It was just like, what is happening? And then you went to work for the cabinet place and you started getting to know people there.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

And well, that was an upgrade. Oh yeah. From everything else I was doing? Oh man, that was a huge upgrade.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

And then Mother and Barb got a job at this sewing company, and we kind of started getting settled in, and you know, we had our failed business.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Oh, I got right onto starting businesses.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

You got into starting businesses, and you started your wood company, and I was like trying to design stuff for that.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

I have been building furniture for a couple of years.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Oh, for yeah. So you knew what you were doing, but we just did not know how to market it and how to do it.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

No, we didn't.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

But hey, you gotta start somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Yeah, I like I made these lamps and these tables and everything, and then you like put them all in this brochure.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

I did brochures and we mailed them out and we were oh, we were going all out.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

It was I was like, let's start this business.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Anyway, so we were busy on that, and I feel like, you know, when I think back about that time, it's kind of like I wish that we would have just kept going in that time. Cuz we went out and we tried fishing, we would go ice fishing, we didn't talk to anybody, we were just free. And we would go to the stores and we started doing way more things.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

I bought two bikes.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

You bought two bikes, we started watching Trump videos because we were so into Trump videos.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

That's when I sat down on my iPad.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

See, you were doing your iPad, but like me, I was finally just out from under the stigma of you know being under my uncles and having all this stuff. Like, we just did whatever, and we had a lot of fun, even though we were still pretty strict, like and then we did start getting into videos and stuff, and I started getting into politics a lot of that time because it was like the only okay thing. Maybe it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Yeah, that's what all FLDS people did.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

And we would go like to the state parks, and I don't know, I just feel like we didn't have anybody judging us. We did not have a single opinion for a whole year. For a whole well, it was nine months. And we were just we were finally free.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

And this is also the first time all mom's kids were there.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

We were finally living all together, we were just a family.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

All the other times.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

It was one or two of us weren't there, or we were off somewhere else, and anyway. I feel like honestly, looking back, if nothing would have happened after that, we probably would have all eventually left and had way better. Like, the things that happened after that would have never happened. But what happened is after nine months, some of Dad's family moved up to North Dakota, and that just ruined everything. So one day, then we start finding out that people are moving up there and they're getting houses there, and you know, naturally we want to see them and have to do with them and stuff, so we start talking to them here and there, and then eventually we start going over to their house, and I really wanted a puppy, so I ended up getting a border collie puppy, and then other ones of our like the other siblings, our half-siblings that moved there, they started getting puppies, and one thing was um I got a border collie puppy, and all the rest of the girls got German Shepherd puppies, and my puppy was very looked down on because it wasn't what they got, you know. I remember feeling the pressure, the pressure on that so bad at that time.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

All the problems you guys made with those dogs. I know it was insane. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

But I would say when we lived in Fargo by ourselves, that was kind of like when I started finding my independence and just figuring out that being by myself was not bad at all, and there was nobody to judge and stuff, and so when those girls started coming around, I feel like I still kind of had that in me. It was just like I just want to be by myself, and and then with my dog, and the problem started with that, and you know, there was a hierarchy in our family to an extent. Um, you know, some of the kids were better than others, and there was that there, so I feel like even us, we tried to please them to be like uh accepted by them and stuff, and but because I had a different dog and stuff, I don't know what it was, but they they never would invite me to their house, they never would let me come on them with trips and stuff, but they would like let Barb come with them and the younger girls they would let them go over there and hang out with them, but for some reason it was just like all I can figure was the dog because I wasn't doing anything different. Anyway, so that kind of started happening and it just got worse and worse.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Well, some of Dad's family moved in with us.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

Oh, that's right. Father had a couple of his younger wives move in with us, and like it was kind of like thirteen people in our house. Was that is that all? Or so there was yeah, thirteen. And um like Millie moved in with us, and her mother moved in with us, so we had a bunch of people in our house, and then um just down the street was where um a bunch of our other half siblings lived and it was insane. That year was I don't even know. That year was insane. I would say that year was probably when I broke and when I very first started to leave. Because like they wouldn't invite me to their house, and then I was home alone a lot, and then I got into the internet so bad. Like, we had the clean the company phone that had internet, and I would go in at first it was just Trump, and then I started getting into influencers and like watching boyfriends and girlfriends just like just like the random videos you see on YouTube of like them scaring each other or getting gifts for each other, and I d I became so lonely. I was it was insane because I felt so abandoned by everybody.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Well, and I would just describe to people that after the first little while went good, but then mother and her sister started having problems with each other in the house, and their dad wasn't right there to like solve the problem.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

Yeah, there was nobody there to say, hey, stop it.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

I I couldn't solve the problem. Yeah. You know, and so there started to be a lot of problems in our house, but then the other house had problems also. Had problems, but our house, like they were trying to be better than our house for some reason.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Yeah, but it was like that house had problems about our house.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

So they had problems with some of us living in our house, and so then it was just back and forth, and it was like I don't even I don't even know what went wrong because I didn't do anything different than what I usually do, and I don't think mother did either.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Oh, I saw it coming from day one.

SPEAKER_02 17:09

It was just like it was so interesting because once I got that dog, it was like I was on the bottom level of the ladder. And um, like w all the girls would go over there, they would even take um Echo over there, because she was a German shepherd, so that my the Jass got and they would let Echo go over there, but um my dog was named Sparky and she cannot even touch their property.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

And so I those dogs were such a big deal. I know.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Like But also I look back and I'm like, it's because we had nothing else to worry about or anything. And then everybody started getting jobs, and I do not know what was in me, but I was so determined to not work where the girls worked. For some reason, they all went and got a job at the very same place, and I was so determined that I would not work there. I don't know why. I was just like, I will never work there because I want to be different. And so I never really got a job at that time. I mostly just helped Mother with her cleaning because we had started our cleaning company and we had a lot of cleaning, so I just helped Mother with her cleaning and all the other girls went to work, and so it really was it was kind of them and their thing and me and my thing. And so I don't know, the separation was pretty obvious, but I don't know what the catalyst was. It's hard to explain. Anyway, so in this was in 2019, and I was 19, and um you know, I had my dog and stuff, but we started to get to know our neighbors.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Oh, you were tied with your neighbor.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

I would go over there quite a bit, but it's just because I didn't have a place. I did not have I don't know, I felt so isolated. But I would go over there and we would talk and stuff or just hang out, and that was seen as so bad. I was like so naughty because I was having to do with the Gentiles.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Well, I think the other girls were making a big deal out of it.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Oh yeah. And see, it was like I kept doing things that they would make such a big deal out of, and I could never get away from it. So it was like, you know what? I'm gonna go make a big deal because that's all I could do. Anyway, and I did keep watching videos and stuff, and I think my sisters found out about it, and so then they told the girls at the other house, and it just became this huge thing anyway. So um I would go over to the neighbor's house and talk to them, and then I saw like how my neighbor was like with her husband and stuff, and they would have fun, and I don't know, I just kind of started seeing how the world was. Well, let me see. And remember Alicia? You built some things for Alicia. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we would go and tend her kids sometimes, and we kind of started like seeing their family, and I just started seeing outside people a lot. And I think that was when I was like, Why are they happy? Like they're not supposed to be happy because they're not the good people, but why are they happy, you know? What were you gonna say?

SPEAKER_00 20:20

I was just gonna say that I I people need to understand better the dynamic between the girls. So in Dad's family, there was basically the girls from the first two mothers. Yeah. And some of Mother's girls got along with them and they liked them, and then sometimes they didn't.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

But they felt like they were kind of the boss there. And it was like to the point where if you don't do what we want, we're gonna fucking kill you almost. Like that was the kind of vibe it was. So it was like, and I wouldn't do what they wanted. I would not do what they wanted, because I knew I could see this coming from a thousand miles away.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

I refuse to do anything they could.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Okay, but you have to realize we grew up with that stigma. So it was like, like if you look at Barb with those girls, it was like she was always making their food for them. She was always serving them, and it was partly our fault because we wanted to. We wanted to be accepted by them. Right. Because they were important, and they were like the good people, and they were like the neat in the hierarchy, they were the highest.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

And and if you didn't do what they wanted, they would blow the fucking world up. They would, and they would use their relationship with dad to make things worse, they would do anything.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

And everybody automatically believed them first.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

And so, like, if one little tiny thing happened and it was even with good intentions, they could twist it however they wanted. So if you did not even mean to do something bad. Like if you were walking down the sidewalk and someone was passing you and they just stopped and wanted to pet your dog and had a small conversation and those girls would find out about it, you were like the wickedest person on the planet because you are you are they would just make a big problem happen.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Because they could.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

And I but the thing is is they would talk to Gentiles and it was just like so I did never understand. I'm like why can you do it and I can't.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

And but I'm just explaining to people like the dynamic between these two houses got so bad that we were ready to drop nuclear fucking bombs on each other. We were we were too and I wasn't see I saw this coming from the day that they showed up yeah I saw this coming so I was ready for it but I don't think everybody like yeah that's why it got bad.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

It was really bad. It was it was to the point where nobody could even do anything without it going anywhere. Like it was almost like they were looking for the next thing to make a problem about well that's all they had to do. Yeah and it was like especially with the dogs and stuff like I was saying I had a border collie they had German shepherds and border collys have a lot more energy and so my dog was always running always doing stuff and then their dogs would sit on the porch and they were just how much better their dogs were than mine and I felt like that was a reflection onto my character. I mean I felt like that's kind of how they portrayed it so then I was like I'm worse than them and I don't know it was just a whole thing but I did so this is crazy. But at that time I started texting random numbers so I got my own phone it didn't have internet it just was talking text I was so lonely and I was so low to the point where I had to talk to somebody and I would just type in a random number number on my phone and start texting it. And I did it to like 10 numbers and I had these random people that I was talking to at that time just secretly texting and it wasn't even bad stuff. It would just be somebody to talk to so yeah it was really naughty but then we bought the house in Durban and I think I think I probably did push for that house because of my dog. Yeah and I needed somewhere to go but I had high hopes for Durbin I mean I was the one out there pounding the walls down and remodeling the place and that's good. I really wanted it to work because of the dogs and because getting away from those girls was like necessary.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Like I just And one thing I'll say about the girls is like it's not that they're we're not saying they're bad people. They're good people and it's just the dynamic of human nature in those situations.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

Especially when you have so many people in one place there's always going to be some that are above others. And the girls aren't bad and they're really good people but there definitely was a stigma. There was a dynamic there was there was something there which I don't even know what to name it.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

It was just Well I I knew that the only way to win is to not play their game.

SPEAKER_02 25:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

And I never play their game.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Yeah um I was right in the middle of it I was right in the middle of it but I just could never get on top I can never get on their good side no matter what I did. No matter how much I agreed with them for some reason. Anyway so um and they know they know now like that's bullshit Well I think I probably empowered them in that because I was so submissive because I was just like I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Because we want to be accepted.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

We want to be accepted and now I'm just like fuck you and now they they know that I'm not gonna do what they say and I'm gonna be me and they can't really do anything about it so I think I don't know if there's a level of respect there or if it's just they know they can't do it.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Well there is like why why do we have why does somebody have to think they're so far above somebody else? It's crazy. You're a fucking human and another thing is a fucking eagle.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

I'm they might have thought oh I'm better than them but I don't think even in their minds that they were just like I'm so much higher than them but it was definitely there especially for us lower ones.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Okay but they've been in a situation where they've been able to manipulate and control things for a lot and you can't let that go.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

And it's kind of one of those things that people will always believe them over me. No matter what happens no matter what my intentions were they will always believe them over me. So what can I do?

SPEAKER_00 26:50

What can I say And I will say like dad did see through a lot of that in his family and that's one of the reasons why it wasn't worse at times.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

Like he did see through a lot of that.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Yeah and those girls were corrected a lot like they had their experiences too but at this time dad had nothing to do with us.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

It's not like those guys didn't have a lot of trauma too.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

I know but they created a lot of trauma for us. Oh yeah without I don't I'm not saying it was intentional but it was definitely there.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

And once we were gone they just did it for the next people.

SPEAKER_02 27:21

I know it was whoever they were with it was insane. But anyway we bought Durban and we were remodeling it like my dog finally had somewhere to live we had built those dog houses for him and it was just finally coming to an era of peace it was like I can come out here I can be myself I was actually gonna get me a job like in a pizza factory at that time and I was like I don't care if I have to wear other clothes I will not work where the girls work so I was applying for jobs and stuff and I had been helping you with your businesses and stuff and that just wasn't really working out. Anyway so we were remodeling Durban and everything I was out of money well I just mean like when you were you tried real estate and stuff oh yeah I was trying everything I tried to help you with that and then you got cut and it was just it was everything happening everywhere. Anyway so um we were out remodeling Durban and I was already so far out of touch with my sisters and everybody because even like even my full sisters were kind of bullying me too. Yeah like they were over they were trying to be approved by those girls and I just I quit because I didn't know what else to do.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Yeah they were they were trying to be accepted by those girls.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

So I had to be really careful what I did around my own sisters. And so all this time I just felt like I was getting further and further away from the family and every I don't know. Anyway I just stopped caring I guess anyway so we were out we were out before I tell us I gotta get a drink. Yeah you're good getting shaky does it ever get to you when you talk about all this stuff yeah I try to not let it too too much when I'm listening to somebody it's mostly afterwards after I have a conversation about somebody about stuff that happened and I'm just like I don't know I get into it so deep and it's just like why why I don't know so we had bought Durbin we were out remodeling Durbin and I had had a phone all this time since we moved to Fargo and I got I get this call from I think it was Mary she was doing father's stuff at the time and she told me and Mon and Jasca to get back to the house because she needed to read us a message and she said do not tell your mother or Barb or Jada and it was just kind of a it was a really big surprise because I had not had anything to do with any of those guys that had been doing father stuff and so I was just like okay whatever I didn't know what was about to happen. I figured I was being corrected anyway so we got in the car drove back home and actually we went over to the other girls' house there was a bunch of us in there and they put it on speakerphone and they read us this message and see I hadn't heard all the crazy messages and so when they read us this message then father was like naming all our names and he was like he was like you've been s terrestrialized and anyone that is not in this room is like in hell like a living alone in hell and they're in misery and eternal damnation and I just had never really heard that wording before so it was kind of confusing and he told us that we were terrestrialized and so our bodies were changed and everything and he told us that we were living on this this high mountain valley land and it was it was so confusing. But you know it's just one of those things when father talks and you just accept it and move on you know and he like specifically named you and mother and Barb Jaden mother and Barb and said that they were like apostates and they were these terrible people now and it was very I don't know the only word I can think of is numb. I was just numb and it was just like what is happening and especially it surprised me because I had been in so much trouble with the girls at that time and so I expected me to be one of the bad ones so I was just like what? I'm one of the good ones are you sure? And so and in the message then it said pack your things and don't like you cannot talk to them ever again. Anyway so I was in a daze and we went back to our house and we started packing our things and I remember mother and Barb were just sitting there like what the hell is going on? We were packing our things or whatever and I it finally hit me and I just busted into tears and I was just like falling apart and um I went and I we were told like Mother and Barb wouldn't let us say bye. She was like you can't say bye you just need to go gather your stuff and we're moving out. Anyway I went and closed mother's door and I was like hugging mother and Barb and telling them bye and oh I was just I was losing my mind. It was crazy. But I had already I had been you know texting these random numbers and stuff and I still had my phone and so I had already been sinning. So it it really surprised me that I wasn't part of the good people. Anyway so we moved our stuff out of that house and never went back and in the and for some reason they specifically told us that me and Jas could not talk to you guys. So like Melanie and those guys would come go over there and you know communicate with you guys but it was like we were not allowed to go anywhere near that house.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

And I would just say that was the ending that was the ending to the serious problem. It was like that that was kind of their revenge at the end of the day like yeah dad had some to do with it but they also had told him whatever they had told him. Oh yeah and also even if they don't know this and acknowledge that within them like that's the reason she was not letting you guys talk. It was the catalyst it it's the re like she wasn't not letting you guys talk because she hated mother at that time. Oh I know because of their problems.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

She hated her oh yeah that's why well and even the girls the girls the older girls the half siblings they were pushing for it too because oh they hated us.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

And I know if if you asked them about it at that time they would say of course we don't hate you but what else was it? It it it was something like that it was something because it was it was bad enough to the point that they practically had to interview us before we could live with them. Yeah like do you believe this and are you gonna do this and this and that and the other anyway um so I had my phone we moved to the other house and I was tempted to text Mueller every day and just text her and whatever. Anyway so I was talking to boys because the numbers the random numbers I had texted some of them are boys and so I had been talking to boys and um not bad stuff it was just I happened to text a boy and you know they were we were just texting and stuff and I was so shut down but anyway I I was talking to boys and stuff and then my neighbor the one that we the neighbor I would always go over to her house she texted me and she was like where are you? Like you guys just disappeared overnight because we literally did and I was like well father told us that we couldn't see our mom anymore and that we can't talk to her or whatever and she was like well do you do you have a message I can give her like should I tell her anything and I was like I mean I guess you could tell her that we love her and miss her and stuff and she was just like and then her sister the house we rented was her sister's house and she started texting me and she was like I will adopt you I will literally adopt you and take you away from there and I was literally going to walk out of that house and go get adopted by someone I literally was on my way out to get adopted by someone I wasn't even in the mindset to leave the religion I was just so overwhelmed with all the trauma and problems that I'd been through in the that last year I just I was literally ready to walk out of there and get adopted by her and then I could and she was like and you can go live with your mom and everything but I will adopt you so that they cannot because I was like I don't know if they'll let me you know I don't know if they'll come and find me or what will happen you know anyway but then um like you know I was thinking about it and stuff and I was still talking to boys and everything and um then the girls decided that they were gonna move us down to Horace which is like I don't know twenty minutes fifteen minutes out of Fargo and they moved us down there but before they let us move down there that's when they talked to us and we're like you gotta not do this and that and the other and set down all the rules and everything and so backtrack that day that we got the message I had slipped a disc in my back when we were sledgehammering the walls at Durban. Then a disc in my back like slipped out of place. Oh really and so I couldn't hardly like I couldn't bend over anything I just had to be straight so I had to lay straight all the time and I could barely walk and stuff and so a lot of this time I was just in bed for most of the time and you know all the girls would be off doing whatever they were doing and I was just home just in bed a lot of the time because I I literally couldn't move. I couldn't ride in cars because I couldn't sit down and so it got really intense with some of the guys I was texting and um I don't know I was just kind of in my own little world and then they moved us to Horace and it just so happened that they had free Wi-Fi in that house. Oh no and I got a hold of the password and that was when I went on the deepest internet dive because I was still healing and I was still in bed and I found out so many things I got into YouTube. I did what you did when you got into YouTube I was not in reality I was in a totally different universe and it wasn't even so much about FLDS it was just about life and what's out there and everything and then I started downloading apps where you can like find friends. It wasn't necessarily like dating apps but it was just like I mean I know people use them for that but it wasn't it wasn't like Tinder or bumble or anything and I started talking to people on there and even like girls and stuff and I would tell them what I was going through and everything and it was just insane like my my window into the world became a door and it was just like oh my god anyway I started talking to this one kid we were the same age but he lived in West Virginia and I we started talking like every single day and this is January of 2020 and um he I told him everything that was going on and stuff and he told me that he was gonna come and pick me up and we had it like all planned out for like the next week and stuff and so I was like getting ready I was ready to walk out I was like I'm done and um like five days later so two days before he was gonna show up he was just gonna drive down that dirt road and I was gonna walk out with my bag and never be seen again. Anyway this was after we had moved away from you guys. Anyway so like two days before he was gonna come then we did this campfire thing and roasted marshmallows and they had made all these um cowboy jackets and cowboy they had gotten all this stuff just I don't even know why they got it but anyway so we were you know out there playing around and I was finally like able to be up and walking around most of the time and stuff and so we I had a really nice phone at the time and so I took most of the pictures just about over the campfire and the stuff we were doing and stuff and and then the next day then one of the girls came and asked me if they could get the pictures off my phone because we would do the airdrop thing so everybody could have all the pictures and so I opened my phone and she was airdropping them and then she took the phone into the other room. She was like I'm gonna go in there and sit down and airdrop them all and so I was like okay but I had been very very careful to delete every text that ever came through so it would come through I would reply delete so I deleted everything all the numbers like if I had numbers to these guys I it would name it something totally different and so nobody had any idea anyway so I was like yeah it's fine like there's nothing on there for him to see or whatever and so I let her take my phone and she came and gave it back to me and life went on as normal and then the next day then I want to say her name because I want her to go to hell go to hell um one of the older girls came and got me and took me upstairs into her room and sat me down on the bed and I was just like what is going on you know and um she pulled out her phone and I had my phone still and she pulled out her phone and showed me screenshots of my phone so like she had taken a picture of my phone and I had forgotten to delete like the last two texts Yeah that was a mistake that I will never forget Yep even I heard about that.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

Did you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:38

Anyway they had taken pictures of my texts and I think I had sent him a picture of me not even without clothes on. It was just a normal picture of me. Yeah and um she told me that I had to hand her my phone and that I couldn't live with him anymore. And That I wasn't worthy to be around the family if I did that and stuff. I don't know, it was so they so I packed up a few things and they moved me into a house in Fargo. And there was a couple of other people living in that house, but they were worthy enough to go to the main house where everybody was living.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

Same deal. So I Houses, a bunch of houses. Now that everybody's in North Dakota, the same fucking thing. Yep. Houses where people are worthy, houses where people are less worthy, and it's still that way up there.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

I know. It is, it really is. But anyway, I had to move into the city, and like we weren't supposed to go into stores now, we weren't supposed to go out and do anything now because father had taken all that away when we all moved away from mother. And but there was a couple people living at this house, but they were never there. So like they would go over to the main house and be there all day. And I so I was just at this house pretty much all by myself the whole time. And the thing that really hurt was um they took those screenshots and showed everybody. Like all the girls knew, all the mothers knew. And so it wasn't like, oh, she just needs to live there for a while. It was like she did this and this and this and this. And so even eventually when I did move back with everybody, it never went away.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Yeah, and this is another thing I would say about like the hierarchy, it never really goes away. It doesn't, like it's always there.

SPEAKER_02 45:40

Even no matter what side you're on, it's always gonna be there. Yeah. Anyway, so I lived at this house pretty much by myself for a couple months. And that was torture. Anyway, I lost my phone, I lost everything. Oh, they gave me the option to move in with you guys at that time.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

Yeah, that's why we heard about it.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

And I told them no because of what father had said would happen to us if we did.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:16

Which is now I think about it and I'm just like, why did I not move in with them? I would have been free. But I guess it just took a w another year of hell before I could get to that point. Anyway, so after a couple months of living alone, I shouldn't say alone because there was a couple people there at night sometimes, but um, then father sent a new message to all the people that were living in that house, and my name was in it, saying that we should all live together and that we were preparing for him to come home and stuff, so it kind of wiped away the need for me to not live around everybody. But just because he sent that message, it did not erase the the what do you call it, the stigma on my name or whatever. And so I ended up moving back in and I moved into a room with seven of the girls because that house was a four-bedroom house, and we had 18 people living there in the house. And so there was a ton of people there. There wasn't enough room, and I moved into a room with seven girls, and I there wasn't room for me to have a bed, so I just slept on a chair. And the first night I moved in, I like got my stuff all settled, and it was kind of like everybody kept their distance from me because I was contaminated or whatever. Yeah. And um but the first night I moved in and I went to bed and I wasn't quite asleep yet, but I mean, it probably looked like I was asleep. I don't know if they thought I was asleep or if they did it on purpose or what, but and this happened every night, but it happened on the first night. It would then they would the girls would gather over on the beds and and like whisper about me and the stuff I did and talk about it, and that's kind of when I found out that they had shared screenshots with everybody about what I did. And I just I don't know, it's like how do you live in that? How do you live when everybody's whispering about all these terrible things you days? And so I kind of I became so withdrawn, I was just like so and it was even that way at mealtimes, it was like, oh there she is, and I don't know. Anyway, it got so bad to the point where I couldn't even go in there in my room. So then I started like sleeping on the chairs in the living room and and then they would lock their door every night, but they wouldn't wait for me to come in. So like even if I would go upstairs at nine, and it wasn't even that late, and they would already have the door locked and they wouldn't open it. And so then they just started locking me out of my room and it's like, what do you do? Like, where do you go? And so I started just sleeping wherever I could find a place to sleep and stuff, and um at the time then the city we were living in, they were building a high school just right across the street. They were building a neighborhood and a high school. It was like they were developing the place and it was like a lot of construction guys, and I remember one day it was so bad that I decided I was gonna write a paper and go put it on one of the construction guys' trucks that just said, come and get me and just take me away. I don't care where we go, I don't care what you do to me, just come and get me. But I didn't do that. So um, while I was living there and all this stuff was going on, I ended up moving a mattress into the mechanical room because I didn't even have a place in my own room. It was like I don't know, it's hard to explain. Like people will say, why don't you just ignore it and stuff, but you can't ignore it. You can't get away from it. So I moved my bed into the mechanical room and I would sleep in there, and it was hard because of the carbon monoxide in there. So like I wouldn't wake up for like hours and hours until somebody would come in there and be like, hey, what are you doing, you know?

SPEAKER_00 51:01

Where?

SPEAKER_02 51:02

At that house in Horace. Oh, yeah. In the mechanical room.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_02 51:06

Like with the water heater and everything.

SPEAKER_00 51:09

And you're sleeping in the mechanical room.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Yeah, there must have been some kind of gas problem in there because I would sleep for hours and hours. Really? And that's not good. Yeah, so I slept in there for a while and then I got I got a full body rash. Like like pussy red bleeding rash all over my body. Really? And it was misery. It was total, complete misery. And when you're in that lifestyle, you can't talk about your body. You can't talk about any problems you have or anything with anybody because that's being immoral, or and I already had this name on my head, like you're immoral, because I talked to guys, and so it's like, what can I even do about this, you know? And I had that rash for like two months, and it was it was complete misery. It was so itchy, but you can't touch your body. Like, even going like this was bad because you're touching your body, and oh man, I feel like I kind of disappeared from everything. I would go out in the trees for hours just to get away from everything. Anyway, I finally asked them to get me a bunch of they got me like eight tubes of cortisone salve stuff, and I would like use a tube like every hour and just smear that stuff all over me because I was so itchy. Anyway, I don't know what the rash was from.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

It's probably from the mechanical room.

SPEAKER_02 52:47

And the stress and I don't know. It it showed up and I've never gotten one that bad before since. But it was so bad. Anyway, I we lived there for a while. It was almost a year, I think. In fact, it was a year. And then one day then they called again with another message saying that all the girls got to stay at that house and still hear Father's messages, and all the mothers had to move away. Uh and I almost wonder if the f if the girls kind of doped Father into doing that. Duped him into it.

SPEAKER_00 53:36

That's actually funny.

SPEAKER_02 53:38

I don't know, but all the mothers had to move away. So they all moved. They all moved to a different house, and all the girls stayed in this one house.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

And by this time it sucks to be brain watched, doesn't that? You just are at the mercy of whatever. Fuck.

SPEAKER_02 54:02

And so we lived at this house, and all the mothers had moved out, and by this time everybody had kind of just like started talking to me again, I guess. Like I wasn't like the favorite or anything, but I could kind of live. And the mothers moved out, so that made it so we had a lot more room. So there was still at least twelve of us girls there. And but we spread out a lot and stuff, and anyway, it was like that for a little bit, and then one day then um Joe's called and said she had messages, and she pa they passed the phone to everybody except me. And they just didn't even say anything to me. So I was like, What's going on, you guys? And they just all started packing up and they're just packing their things and I was just like, Whatever, you know. And then finally, then one of them was like, Yeah, we're moving out, and I was like, Oh, I must not be, you know. So then I was just the only one left there. And so then they moved the girls out, and then after a few days, then all the mothers moved back into that house. So it was me and a whole lot of mothers. Oh, oh, it was it was interesting.

SPEAKER_00 55:30

It's probably almost better than the girls at the time.

SPEAKER_02 55:32

Oh, it was way easier to deal with them.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

It was also it was like all the pressure just suddenly went away.

SPEAKER_00 55:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:40

And it's like, what do I do with myself now? Like, I'm so used to having to be on a side or everybody being against me or me trying to figure out how to fit in. So now it's just like I'm kind of on my own. Like I could shower whenever I wanted, I could go outside whenever I wanted, and it was just like whatever, you know. I mean, there was still a stigma there, but it was just was not nearly as bad. And so then all the mothers moved in, and it was really awkward because living around that many mothers with just one or two girls is extremely awkward. But you know, there's still that thing of like, I want to go where the good people are, and you know, I want to be part of everything, and I had kind of given up oh, oh, I forgot. Um when they had when they took those screenshots of my phone and I moved into that house, that was probably the first time I ever like considered suicide. It was like anything would be better than this. Like if I can't leave, if I can't have any way to get a hold of anybody and leave, then I would rather just I mean, what could be better, you know?

SPEAKER_01 56:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:57

And but anyway, so when all the girls moved out again, it was a relief, but also they had all gone and moved on, and they were the good ones, and I was one of the bad ones, and it was just like what do you do? Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, it was like that for a little while, and I don't know. That's kind of when I just started doing my own thing. I mean, this whole time I'd kind of just been doing my own thing, but I was to the point where I was like, I do not give a single fuck. Like, I will do whatever I want. And then after a few months, then Father decided that I could come and be with the good people, and that was that was I wanted to come be with the good people so bad, but what I walked into was insanity. Like, this was at the time when he started giving the most insane revelations, and he would call every single day from 8 p.m. to midnight because that's when they would let him use the phone almost every single day. And so when I finally got to go be with the good people, it was like this is so fun and everything. And then the first day I get there, then they're like, hey, you know, you gotta get up because we gotta start our trainings. And it was like father would call 8 to 12, and then he would say, Re-listen to this for five days in a row.

SPEAKER_00 58:29

And this is in 2022.

SPEAKER_02 58:31

One one, so the year had changed to 2021, and we were all still living in North Dakota, but in different cities. So we had kind of all moved out of Fargo now, and we were we were living in Mina at the time. Anyway, um, so he would give a training every day, say listen to it for five days in a row, but then there's one every day. So some days we were listening to three four-hour trainings, so that's 12 hours of trainings, and then sometimes he would go back and say, listen to this training from a month ago or whatever. And so every day it was constant. It was like from five in the morning to nine at night, we were listening to these insanity. Oh, it was it was crazy. I remember the first time hearing it, I was just like, What the fuck? And the thing about it was the first training I heard was about me because they hadn't listened to it the five times before I came. So I heard everything he said that I did and the babies I cut up, and I was just sitting there like, oh my god, what is going on? And it was insane. And then at the end of every single training, every single training, he would say, Do not talk to this to anyone, not even among yourselves. If you do, you will go to hell and you will live an everlasting life alone in hell. And when he would say hell, he would give four-hour trainings on what hell was like, and like what the chains felt like, and what the fire felt like, and what was going through our minds in hell, and it was a very, very vivid picture of hell, which which I would prefer to listening to him at this point, but anyway, um, yeah, I heard everything about what I did and the drugs I took and the babies I cut up, and it's even now I disassociate from it so bad because it's just like, what the fuck? Like, who even imagines those things? Anyway, so that's kind of what I walked into, and I had not heard any of the crazy things. Um so the thing about him is he would say, This happened, but you don't remember because God removed it from your memory. And in my mind, it was either like this is crazy, or I just don't remember. And I just have to trust that something's going on because I don't know. And the thing about it was when he would say stuff, and I would not understand what he meant, like he would tell us we did stuff, and I was like, I wanted to ask somebody, I was like, Did you see me do it? Like, did I actually hurt that person? And it would be person in that room, it would people in that room that we cut apart. And I wanted to ask him, I was like, Are you? But I couldn't. It is, and we couldn't say anything to anybody, and you I would look around that room while he was talking, and everybody was just like in a daze because like we couldn't we couldn't discuss it, we couldn't be like, hey, it's okay, you know, and we would just have to listen to all these murder stories and all these terrible, terrible things that happened, and it was just insane. It surprised me because I had not heard such insane stuff. Anyway, so while that was going on, we were like clearing off the land in South Dakota because the government was taking it at that time. So we were doing those trips and you know, busy all the time, and we ended up moving to Williston for a few months and oh, I completely forgot. Clear back in 2019 at the end when we left Mother. Are you able to clip this and put it right there? Because I don't know. In 2019, when we left, when we were taken away from mother again, we had to sell our dogs. So it was like, get rid of all your dogs, all your pets, and everything. Like you can't take them with you. Yeah. So I had to let Sparky go, and we had to sell all our dogs. And I don't know, we kind of got dogs in the beginning just because we were compromising enough and needed something to do that it was like, let's get them. So then we had to let them go, and that was pretty hard on me. But now, fast forward to 2021, we all moved to Williston, and everybody starts talking about getting dogs again. It's like a few years of repentance, and now we're gonna compromise again. But so we moved there, and you know, we're hearing these revelations all the time, and it's just insane. Through the process of getting everything off of the land in South Dakota, then the deadline came and the girls hadn't gotten everything that they wanted to get. So they went to the sheriff and they were like, We need is there any way we can get like these certain items off the land because we need them? And the sheriff was like, Well, because we weren't allowed to talk to the people that took the land. I don't even remember what their names were.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:05

Just so everybody knows, they basically filed a lot, some XFLDS filed a lawsuit against Warren Jeffs, and because he didn't respond, it went to default judgment, and they took the land up there.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:20

Yeah, they like that was kind of like their payment was the land. They gave them the land. Anyway, so they were taking the land and and it had years and decades worth of stuff on that land. It was a mess. We started, or the girls started communicating with the sheriff, and they finally worked it out, and we went and got a trailer load of stuff from the apostates that took the land from us. And through that whole process, we ended up at the sheriff's office and visiting with the sheriff just to talk about the stuff we wanted to get and make a list and stuff, and that was kind of like the beginning of going to see the sheriff. For some reason, it was like a break. It was like the fun thing to do, it was like the secret fun thing we were doing, and we would go down there, you know, every other week and go see them and hang out with them, and they were just they were very inviting, they were very like like they would take us up to Custer State Park and they would, you know, let us shoot their guns and just stuff that was so naughty. But we were just so stressed out from hearing these revelations all day and dealing with everything that we just we really went down the rabbit hole with these guys. And just kind of became the thing to look forward to. And anytime that the girls were stressed, see, the older girls were the only ones that could decide. Like, I couldn't be like, I need a break, I'm gonna go see these guys. It was only the older girls.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:53

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:54

And every once in a while they would let me join them.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:56

And at this point, like Now they're dad scribes.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:01

They are they've been dad scribes for years though. So they're kind of in charge. They're in charge of the money, of the revelations, of what people can get and what people can do. Like people will ask 'em if they can get things before they buy it and stuff. So they were just in charge of everything. They were in charge. Even when I had to move to that separate house, they were the ones that decided. Like they were the ones that decided I wasn't good enough and stuff. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:27

They're and they're kind of trying to They are, but they're kind of trying to do what Dad says.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:33

Kind of, but they do it in their own interpretation. So if Dad said one little thing about someone they didn't like, they would punish them to the fullest extent.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:42

So like with me, I wasn't particularly their favorite. I feel like if one of the other girls had been doing that, in fact, one of the other girls did do that, were talking to people, and they just took their phone away from them and let them stay there. But when it came to me, then it was like, nope, you have to get out of here. Yeah. So I feel like they interpreted their their punishments according to however they wanted to.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:04

Of course they do.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:05

And it's insane. Oh, it just it pisses me off. Like that was so not fair. Anyway, um, so we go start seeing the sheriff a lot. And it like others of the family started finding out in Heatherman and those guys, and they were like, you gotta stop doing that, and whatever, but they didn't stop doing that. Um after a few months, then I became a bad person again, and I guess I killed a bunch of people and decided dad decided that I couldn't, you know, listen to his insanity anymore. So I had to move down back down to my naught into a house with a bunch of mothers, and that was that was hard because I don't know, it's hard being downgraded. When you're among the worthy people and you get downgraded, then you just feel like shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:04

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:06

Anyway, so I moved there and I was quite rebellious at this point. I was just like doing whatever, whenever. I was going out with my hair hanging. I got the girls to buy me a bike, and I was just all over the place. But the stupid thing is, I was letting my hair hang, but I still wouldn't let myself call you guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:29

Yeah, and I would just say the from the time that you guys left to this point, the the absolute insanity in your guys' brains was at a level I had never seen before.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:50

Like the the mindset that even all the girls that were doing we were having all those problems.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:57

Like everybody that kind of went and they were listening to all those messages that dad set sent and everything, yeah. Even though they were kind of in charge, the insanity was insane.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:08

I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:09

Like two years earlier, they would have condemned you for buying a bike.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:12

Oh yeah, but then all of a sudden they're doing it.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:14

Right, they're doing it, and they're buying you one, and their whole justifications have switched, and the insanity is just on a level that I could never describe to anybody.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:23

I know, but the thing is, is like I've been talking to boys and I was punished for a whole year for that. That was a year of hell. True hell for me. And now they're just off talking to the sheriff and talking to his friends and going and hanging out with him and watching movies. Watching movies and trying beer and are you down there with them? No. Oh because when I when I got downgraded from the good people, then I went to the house in my not, and then I never got to do anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:50

But did you do it before?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:51

So I went down to the sheriff's house a couple times with them. So I knew they were doing it.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:56

And um Were you with them when they were changing their clothes and everything? Oh.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:01

So we hadn't gotten to that point. We hadn't watched any movies or anything, but we were going down and seeing 'em. We would like make present boxes for 'em and spend a bunch of money and get them all this stuff and I don't know. It was it was a stress reliever because when we were with them we didn't have to be listening to the trainings. Yeah. But it was fun at first, but then when I moved to the other house, then I just completely got left out. Like they never included me ever again. And so I was kind of just stuck at that house and I was very rebellious. I was very like, do not tell me what to do type of situation. But then a bunch of the mothers would tell us we had to like we had to call Heathen over everything. Like, we had to call Heatherman and ask him if we could go and deliver letters for father. And we had to call Heatherman to practically go out of the house. So it was like call your brother and ask him if you can step a toe out the front door. It was ridiculous. It was stupid.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:01

Heathen, what the fuck is your problem, dude? Like seriously. We used to pull weeds together.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:09

Oh, yeah, it wasn't get over your self. But the mothers were so strict with it. Like, it was almost like they wanted revenge on the girls. And so the mothers were stoning mean. And then here we are trying to like be all independent, and it was there was some insane problems there. It was ridiculous. I was just like, oh my god. Uh anyway, so I was just living at this house, and then everybody started getting dogs. Like, everybody started getting dogs. And I called the girls, and I was like, you know what? You're getting me a dog. You are. You are getting me a dog. And finally they got them dogs, so I was like, you have a dog, I can have a dog. And so finally they agreed. And so we drove to Minnesota and picked up Safi. And we got two puppies from that litter. We got Safi and then they named the other one Dakota. And so I went and got my puppy. So now I had a puppy, and it kind of just gave me something to do, and there wasn't near as many problems after that. But anyway, so I had this puppy, and so I knew the girls were going down to see the sheriff and stuff. And I knew they were going a lot because I would hear little rumors here and there and whatever. But one day, then Joe's called me and told me to call mother. And I was just like, What is going on? So, which calling mother was like the worst possible thing I could do all this time. It was like I was forgiven for talking to boys, but if I would have talked to mother, I would have been the absolute worst and never been able to come back. Anyway, so she was like, You need to call your mom. And I was like, Okay, this is really weird. Like, you don't let me do this. Anyway, so I called up mom and she was like, She was so hype, like so stressed, she was so what's the word? She was so um undone and stressed, and oh, she was in a panic. And I was like, what is going on? And she was like, Jasca is missing, and I was like, What the fuck? What is happening right now? And she's like, Yeah, he the one called me last night and he was just like He called me. Or he called you guys last night and and was just like, Jasca's missing, have you seen her? And I was just like, What the actual fuck is going on? And so then I hang up and I call Joe's and I am like, what is happening? And she's like, Well, you know, you know, just just don't, whatever, you know, it'll it's okay. Jaska's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:11

Okay, but that's the level of insanity those guys were in. Like, they think it's fine to just call us and say, your younger sister's missing, tell mom your your daughter's missing, and think we're just gonna be like, alright. Yeah, like they are totally out of this world. They're like not even in reality anymore. Like they need I'm I am pissed at that time. Like, I'm like, you guys are sh you guys are fucking out of your mind.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:35

They are, they are, but so they call mother and tell this, and then Joe tells me I can call mother. So I call mother and I'm talking to her, and she's panicking over the phone, and you know, she's crying and like she hasn't heard about us for a year. She has no idea where we are. Two years, and you guys have been going through shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:57

Well, dude, Keelan calls me and he's like, Jasca's missing. Like it was totally fucking normal.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:04

Another day.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:05

I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? She has been living with you guys for two years and now she's just missing, and you're I said, Did you call the police? And she he's like, no. I'm like, well, what the fuck? Like, so where is she missing?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:21

And the thing is, is we were living in Williston and there were so many murders and there were so many creeps in that city. That city is known for its crime. And they said they had dropped Jasca off at their house, and that was the last time they saw her. That's what they told Mother. Or you guys. And I mother was telling me this, and I just started laughing. I was like, oh my god, I cannot believe this is happening. Anyway, somehow Joe's or somebody told me that um shaska was sent to live with us at the bad people house, and she refused. So she went to the sheriff's house. Anyway, I knew this. So I called mother, and mother was freaking out, and I knew the girls would hate me if I told her, but I was like, do I let mother freak out, or do I just say, hey, she's fine? Like, and so I was like, okay, mother, go somewhere where nobody can hear me, and I'm going to two. So I like left the house, and I went to the park, and I just spilled the beans. I told her we went to the sheriff's house, and that's where Jasca is, and just kind of gave her a little backstory about the sheriff and stuff, and how we got to know him and where he lives and all this stuff, and it it kind of pissed her off even more because she was like, Why did they do this to me if they know where she is?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:52

Well, let me add in some details. Uh mom, she called she reported that night, because Heatherman called me that night.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:02

And I appreciate Heatherman for calling me.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:05

Uh b because he did realize, like, okay, something's seriously wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:10

That's why he called me.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:11

Uh but he didn't know. But they did know.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:15

Yeah, they knew.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:16

But mom calls the police that night.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:18

She did a missing persons report.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:20

Yeah. And Jaskins are down at the sheriff's house. But he then doesn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:29

The girls do. So mom is panic kind of panicking. She calls the sh she talks to the sheriff on the phone.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:37

In South Dakota?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:38

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:39

And he basically treats her like she is a serious predator to Jasca.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:45

That's because of what the girls told him about her. They told him that she would come and kidnap her and do all these things.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:53

And that's why he thought that.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:56

Anyway, keep telling your story.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:58

So anyway, this is what I'm I'm so I tell mother everything, and then somehow, uh, the girls find out that I tell mother. And the girls texted me, and it was like, I don't ever want to see you again. I don't ever want to talk to you again. I do not care if you're alive or dead. I do not ever want to hear from you again. And that was devastating. And I think back now on it, and I'm like, if the girls would have had more understanding, I probably would have left with them. Like, I probably would have said, Will you come get me? Because I was going through stuff at this house that I was just done. And but they were so incredibly mean at that time. And just completely I don't know. So then eventually the seven of them left and they all went and did whatever they were doing at the sheriff's house, and then um Teresa and Sandy were kind of in charge now. Because after Joe's and those guys left, then um Teresa and Sandy kind of took over and they would come and see us and everything. And I was considered a good girl because I didn't leave with the rest of the girls.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:25

And so All those girls that had been condemned.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:30

All the girls that had made my life an absolute hell were like apostates now.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:36

Anyway, so Teresa was like, We're gonna move all you girls up to Williston where you're away from this. All the stuff that the drama that was going on in my knot with just all the mothers, and it was a big fucking deal. So Teresa and Sandy move us up there, and you know, I take my dog and I come to you we come and meet you guys and we pick up Pixie, the little border collie that I had bought from you guys, and so that happened, and we moved to Williston, and it was like because I didn't leave with the girls, I was good. Like I was still faithful. And then we moved to Williston and there was two houses in Williston. There was a good people house and then there was our house. And every day then they would come and pick us up and our dogs, and we would go over to their house and just like spend the day with them because it was kind of just like me and like four other girls at this house, so we were just kind of on ourselves by ourselves, you know. So they would come and pick us up and we would go over to their house and just spend the day outside in their yard because they had a big yard. And it was really fun because I had two puppies and they were a lot and you know, just get out and do stuff, and they had a garden and stuff. And anyway, after a few weeks, then it was like my goodness just went away. I don't know where it went. It was just like I started like training my dogs how I had trained 'em, and I had had this uh Sparky before that, so I had had some experience. So I was like training my dogs and just the basics at first, and it was like one day they saw me training them or something, and they didn't agree with my training methods, because I was into a very positive training method, and they were into like choke collars and shock collars, and I was so determined that I wasn't gonna use those. Anyway, so I was training my dog different from them, and the dog thing came up again. It was like my dogs were the worst dogs on the planet, and so then they started saying, You can come over, but you have to leave your dogs. And I was like, I'm not gonna leave two tiny little puppies at this house all day. Like, that's just ridiculous. Anyway, so I just started staying home with my puppies, and then it got to where they would come and secretly pick up the girls. Which I don't know why, because I was not even throwing that big of a fit about them taking the girls. And of course I felt left out and everything, but I was just like, what is going on? And so then they started leaving me at the house for hours on end, sometimes overnight, and I was just by myself, I couldn't go anywhere. And at this time I had been talking to Mother all every day because they couldn't stop me at this point. I was like, you either let me talk to Mother or I leave, you know. Anyway, so I've been talking to Mother every day and stuff, and But Joe's and those guys haven't even left yet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:55

They have?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:56

So the seven girls left the religion, moved down with the sheriffs, and that's when Teresa decided to move all of us good girls that stayed to Williston to be close to them. So Joe's and those guys were living with the sheriffs at this time.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:12

I see.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:13

Anyway, so then it got to where every few days the girls would come home and I would start hearing these stories about me. That never happened. Never, not even once. It did not even cross my mind until they told me the story about myself. And it was just like I was abusing the girls, and because it was um actually my nieces I was living with. It was like my sister's daughters that were living there, and their mothers are very protective of their children, and you their children can do no wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:50

And so it got to where their children would go and tell their mothers stories about me that I had never even entered my mind, like some fucking insane stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:02

And I would come and um Millie was living with us at the time, and she would come and she's like, Did you really do this? And I was like, What the fuck are you talking about? I haven't even thought of doing that. Like, that's insane. And then they put up cameras all all over the house, so I couldn't leave the house without them knowing. I couldn't walk outside without them knowing. And then they were wanting to put them inside the house, and I was just like, Okay, this is way too far. And so one of the girls that had left with Joe's decided she wanted to come back. So they went and picked her up from South Dakota and brought her to live with us at our house. And, you know, she was supposedly all good now and wasn't gonna leave anymore and wasn't an apostate anymore, and everybody was so proud of her for coming back and choosing what's right and whatever, but it was very clear she was not she was not choosing to come back. It's just because she wasn't my sister, she was my cousin, and her father convinced her to come back. So she came back and was living with us, but then a couple weeks later then Joe's and the sheriff came and picked her up again and took her back down there. So she decided to go back and live with them. Anyway, there's the girls leaved and everything was so fresh and so everybody was so worked up over it at this point that when this happened then I was ready to leave. I was like, I can't stay here anymore. And so I begged the girls, please, please take me. Take me with you. I have to go. And they were just like, No, no, you can't come with us. Oh, that pissed me off. I was like anyway, so the next day then Teresa and Sandy came over and you know found out everything that had happened and how the girls had come and picked up my cousin and taken her back and everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:05

And I So the girls that left wouldn't come get you?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:11

No. I tried to get them to take me to the sheriff's with him so I could leave because I couldn't be here anymore. And I was at I was at my wit's end.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:22

Anyway, so You'll never fit in with them.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:26

Nope.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:27

Never.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:27

But you know anyway, so I called mother that morning and I was like, please come and pick me up. Please. Anyway, and she didn't know where we were living, so I told her I was like, This is where I'm living, please come pick me up. And so then I went to Teresa and Sandy and I was like, Mother's gonna come pick me up. It's either that or I leave. And they were like, Well, we don't want you to leave, so you should just go spend a week with her if that will help you or whatever. And I had no intention of just spending a week with her. I had no intention of going back there. So Muller and Bard came and picked me up and we came and lived with I came and lived with you guys in Horace where you guys were living. Brought my puppies and everything came and lived with you guys and I started like talking to the girls that had left, more like Joe's and Rachel and Becky and those guys, and that was when like Nora called me one day and just told me the whole scoop about dad and everything he had done, like all the sexual stuff, and I was it blew my mind. I had no idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:44

But You're like, I've been listening to how I cut up a bunch of people, but that's pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:00

I was in Horace living with you guys. Then we were all sitting in the dining room talking and stuff. And they were like, Well, because I was telling you guys, it is so insane there. Like, you're you're glad you're not there. And um, Mahler was like, Well, why is it insane? I'm just like, it's insane what dad is saying. And um she was like, Well, what? What's he saying? And I was like, You wouldn't understand. You would never understand. And I feel like that is what we all said because it was so crazy. And if you're gonna stay there and believe that shit, then that's the only response you can give. It's like you have you don't even know how to understand, you know? And she was like, just try me, just try me. So I started telling I started telling you guys stuff that the father had said, and you guys were just like, oh my god. So one of the things that had happened was we got a tarantula spider, and it was kind of like my pet. We got this tarantula, and I had like a a cage for it and everything, and it was this cool thing, and it shed its skin and everything, and I was just obsessed with this thing. It would crawl all over me, and I don't know, it was just I had nothing to do, apparently. Anyway, so I had got this tarantula, and someone told father. And so he sent this message saying that my spider had killed a bunch of people.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:34

He's just targeting the spider.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:36

And it's like the spider had gotten on drugs. Insane. And so I had to get rid of my Skylar. I named it Skylar. And I was so sad. It was just like everything I got kept being taken away from me. Anyway, so that was one of the things that had happened that I was just like, that did not happen. Anyway, so I wouldn't say I fully believed all the stuff Father was saying. It was mostly just so much I could not even comprehend. It was just like, what the fuck? And like sometimes when the girls would come, I would almost say stuff. I never really asked them this, but I was just like, who died now? Who died last night, you know? Anyway, so like who who cut someone up? Who took drugs? Anyway, so I was living with you guys, and I remember mother and Barb just like asking questions, and like you would come and ask me questions about stuff, and I was just like, I don't know. I was so far out of it. Ugh. That was a very interesting time because at that time I stayed in my room for like two months. You probably remember that. Yeah, I that was when I did a deep dive on the FLDS, and that was when I really got into like movies, and that was when I found out how babies were made, and oh, it was like 20 years of knowledge and two months, and I was I remember mother and Barb knocking on my door and I would never open it. I was just like on my phone 24-7 because you guys had Wi-Fi and I would oh my goodness. After Nora told me all that stuff about Father, I went and oh my gosh, it was it was insane. I kind of got obsessed with movies and like watching stuff, but after a while after I finally got enough, then it kind of got old, and that's when I finally went and like got a job and decided to get on top of things.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:00

I don't know. But we went down so after Barb and I kind of decided to leave, then you know, we went and saw the girls after they had moved.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:13

Yeah, and shortly after that, I I moved from North Dakota down to Wyoming.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:17

Oh, that's right. You left. Yeah, I left shortly after that. I thought you left because we were leaving and we were such a bad influence and a temptation to you, so you couldn't be there. I didn't know why you left. But anyway, we went and visited the girls after they moved with the Barlows. None of them were married yet, but I think a couple of them knew who they were gonna marry. And we went down there just to visit them and stuff, and they so after the girls had treated me like that for so long, you know, 2019, 2020, and now it's 2021, almost 2022, and they just treated me like trash for years, and same with Barb, they were just trashy to her.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:11

Yeah, they were.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:12

And we went down there and we saw their lifestyle, and like some of them the one with kids, she had like five kids, and they were like stuffed into this tiny little house, and then they wanted to like line the men up so we could decide who we wanted to marry. It was insane. And I think I had just tasted enough freedom, and I had talked to enough guys that I was like, hell to the no, I will never, ever live this life. Anyway, and so we went down there and there was just so much pressure, and they would take us one by one and tell us, like, you know, there's this guy and this guy, and they're really good at this and this, and if you want to go to the celestial kingdom, then you need to marry into this way of life. It was insane, it was just like so much pressure to do that. But I feel like in the back of my head, I already knew I didn't want it, otherwise, I probably would have caved and just done what they wanted. But they had been so trashy to me, I was just like, fuck you guys. And I had started like talking to people on the outside and just like random friends on Snapchat or whatever, and you know, just getting to kind of to know how the world was and stuff, and so after like two days of being there, we were like, we are getting the hell out of here because this is insane. So I never even wondered if I should marry into that because I was like, hell no, I'm not gonna live around you guys ever again. So, yeah, that was kind of our rejection of the Barlow way of life. Which thank God, thank God. And so, yeah, that was kind of when I left. A lot of people asked me, like, what made you leave? And I was like, I didn't really just like up and one day leave. Like, it took years, but also I was just kind of pushed out. Like in Williston and being so targeted and so like I had no room to breathe, and if I needed anything, they wouldn't get it, but if the other girls needed it, they would, and and then plus on top of that I was finally talking to mother and they had jobs and they got all this stuff and they were happy, and I was just like, I don't I couldn't be there anymore because I didn't know what would have happened next. So I kind of felt pushed out a little bit, even though I had already kind of mentally started leaving and stuff, but I don't know. I was compromising with boys since 2019, so I don't know what that says about me. Did you know I was talking to boys?

SPEAKER_00 1:35:58

Yeah, well I I heard about the first time.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:01

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:02

I also knew that you were doing quite a bit of stuff on that cleaner corner phone because I, you know, I I bought the phone. It was time to do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:12

You knew the data. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:15

I I wasn't gonna like Yeah, you know, I was just kind of leaving it up to mother.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:20

Yeah, well the thing was was mother was like really nice to me. And I think that's why I was I trusted her so much, was bec or like was so attached to her because even through all that time I would watch videos and she would tell me, just make sure you're not watching like immoral stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:37

And I really wasn't at that time. Like at that time it was just like random stuff. Anyway, so Muller was like actually one of my best friends at that time, but I don't know. After it all went down, it was Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:53

It's crazy what you'll suffer through to be accepted.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:57

I know, and it um like the thing that makes you say, Kay, this is enough, might not even be as bad as the worst thing that happened. It's just like you're at the end of your rope and you cannot go any further. It's just like I can't take this, I won't anymore. I don't know. I feel like I left like super fast. Like once I moved to to Horace with you guys, it was like, okay, I'm out. And I stopped saying my prayers, I stopped reading any scriptures or Book of Mormon or anything. I stopped all that stuff, just like on a dime. And it was but I feel like I've been working up to it for a while, but it just I don't know. Anyway, I I left really fast, I got on dating apps really fast and some insane stuff happened, but it was yeah, I feel like I kind of jumped into the world really fast. And then I then I got to where I was like, I wanna be on my own. I don't know, I've kind of always been that way, just on my own, just and I was gonna go get my own apartment, I got me a job, I got me a car, and but then it ended up that um mother was moving to Idaho, so then me and Barb got our apartment up there in Fargo. And, you know, we lived there for a couple years, and I got a boyfriend, and you know, had my first boyfriend and that ended in a disaster. But you know, first boyfriend at 22 is not a good idea. Like, let your kids be with boys when they're 15 and 16 so that they can make mistakes then. I don't feel like I have a lot going on in my life now, because I don't know, do I? But then I'm like, oh, I have so much. Let's see.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:58

Well, you gotta tell people about your arts thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:00

I will after. Um, so I did move down to Idaho with everybody for a while, and I'm not gonna put this in my story because I don't feel like it.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:12

Should I whatever you want to do?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:14

I don't want to hurt mother.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:16

Oh, you can say you've said everything about everybody at this point. Might as well keep going. One thing I'll say is like to the girls and to the mothers and to everybody that hurt people in situations, we'll fuck you for that. But also, I totally understand the mindset. I totally forgive you. I don't harbor any bad feelings against you. Now, I'm not saying that's you. You can you can hold grudges or whatever. I'm just saying this is how I feel about it. Like, I understand deeply that if you don't leave a cult, you become the tyrant.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:54

I saw moments in myself when I was the tyrant. I understand why they were. I say, like, why the fuck did you do that? But I also totally understand. I also asked myself the same thing, why the fuck did I do that?

SPEAKER_02 1:40:09

Mm-hmm. Well, I see things like that, and it's like I understand, like, why they did some of the things they did, but I don't understand why they went to that extent. Like, why did they have to be so mean? It wasn't father telling them to be mean. It wasn't like somebody wasn't accepting them if they weren't mean. So it's like, why did they have to be that mean? That's why I tell people Like they were the ones deciding to inflict that. It wasn't someone else saying, if you don't inflict that, then this is gonna happen to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:39

That's why I tell people, if you stay under the rule of a tyrant, you will become a tyrant. And you will do it just out of your own human nature. You will do it because you're resentful, you'll do it because you're upset with your own life, and you will ruin people. And you will be mean, and that's why cult people will do horrendous things.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:02

Even worse than their cult leader.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:03

Ugh. It was amazing. And even now, like, I don't wish anything bad on anybody. Anybody that hurt me or harmed me or, you know, made my life miserable or anything, it's not that I wish some anything bad on them, but I do wonder, like, do people realize the damage, or is it just their everyday life?

SPEAKER_00 1:41:23

Like Well, they probably want to deny what they did.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:27

You know, they probably don't want to accept that that's what they actually did because it's hard to accept.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:32

Because like all this stuff that's happened, I've never had 'em ever try to talk to me about it and like explain or anything. So I'm like, do you even realize that it hurt that bad?

SPEAKER_00 1:41:42

Or I don't know. Well, some of 'em are still too much part of cult. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_02 1:41:47

Yeah. I don't know. And it's I don't have any like bad feelings toward 'em, but even now I'm like, fuck you. Like, I'm never gonna be close with you again or consider you as a close friend because fuck you.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:03

Well, it's it's like, okay, you can't keep playing that game. You'll never win.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:08

Yeah, I know. And now it's like, you know, I I live in Fargo still, which hopefully I move away soon, but it's like I live there, I have my own house, I have my own job.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:20

Well, you know how you were saying you didn't know why I left. Well, I was just getting the fuck out of North Dakota.

unknown 1:42:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:29

Well, I know why I left. I just don't know the moment I decided to leave because like cooler back in 2019, I was on the internet and talking to boys, and even at that time it wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna leave. So I don't know, maybe it was just enough compromising to the point where it was like, and then everything got so bad to the point where I was like, I don't want to do this anymore, I don't care if I go to hell. I'd rather go to hell than be here, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:42:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:53

So I don't know. Um But yeah, I just got my job, got a place to live. I lived in North Dakota for most of 2022 into 2023, and then I moved down to Idaho to live with my mom for a few months. And when I was in Idaho, a lot of things happened, and I was just it's like the time when I finally realized how much healing I needed. Like how messed up my brain was, and you know how much I didn't know who I was and how vulnerable I was to the world. Like you just never know what's gonna happen. And I don't know, things happened that just really changed my life a lot. Bad things, I mean. Just stuff that I was like, I've gotta figure this out so this doesn't ever happen again.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:00

Yep, you go to a ex or you go to a really Mormon town, and if you're vulnerable, bad things will happen. They take advantage of you so bad, and I'll also I feel like I That's why I tell the Mormons, you guys have no fucking idea how much of a hypocrite you are. Well, like I will fucking die on that. Like those guys are fucking evil. The most righteous people of them that think they're so good, it's their towns that are probably the most dangerous.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:31

They will hurt girls the worst.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:34

And we've seen it, and I fucking hate 'em for it. And they're evil.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:38

I know. Anyway, I was living in Rexburg with mother, and it wasn't even it was a good place. Like there was rivers nearby, and I was going through a lot of like mental health stuff, but also it we had a place, we had land, we had stuff to do. But then I broke up with my boyfriend, and that was hard, and then stuff happened.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:02

Okay, but that I would say that's when you were really come to terms with leaving.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:06

Yeah, see, that's when I was finally realizing, like, oh my god, like I don't live that life anymore. What do I live? Like, what do I believe? What do I want? Who why am I even here, you know? And I remember going down and sitting by that river for hours and just watching the water, just like, why is the water here? Like, why is the water here? What's it doing? And it's just like everything in everything at that time. It was like, why is that tree there? Because nothing made sense, because nobody's telling me what to think anymore, or what to live, or what I should believe. Anyway, I went, I got so obsessed with that. It was just like, what the heck is going on? Why are we even here? Like, I don't know. And then some stuff happened in Rexburg and it was very traumatic, and I I had to get out of there. I I just the whole city, I I had to get away from it. It was just like I cannot be here anymore. I cannot chance me running into certain people, and I just I don't know, I was it was either kill myself or leave. And so I just packed up and left. And I know it wasn't very kind to my family and the people that loved me, but I did not know how to go about it. It was just like I mean, I was we have to get out of here.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:23

Uh yeah, I understood. Like uh everybody there was a lot of people. I feel like we were kind of all in the same mother was super in a bad spot when she was like she was she did not just begin to leave. Yes. Yeah. I had kind of already left, but the other people there were also leaving.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:48

And it was not the dream life that we had dreamed about.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:52

Oh, damn.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:55

I was just kind of on the sideline watching, like everybody figure themselves out.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:59

It was kind of like I I made such an extreme decision. I literally packed my bags during the night, loaded up my car, and drove away. I did. But it's like I made such an extreme decision because for the last year and a half since I had first left and started wearing regular clothes and all that stuff, it was like it just had never hit me, and all the decisions I had made just s kept seeming seemed to just keep getting me deeper and deeper in the hole, and bad shit was happening to me, and I was just like, I cannot do this anymore. And then the place that helped me, like the crisis center in Rexburg, and they were like helping me with stuff, and and they gave me the option, like, we'll give you gas money if you need to get out of here, and I was just like, Hell yeah, I'm getting out of here. Because I lived in North Dakota before that. I had a good job, and I mean I had a job that would pay the bills, and you know, they they were like, Yeah, we'll take you back or whatever, but I was just like, I have to get out. So I drove up to North Dakota and that's where I live. But I don't sometimes I kinda wish I wouldn't have. Yeah, I need to figure out what I do. I feel like I work all day every day and then I go home and get a little bit of sleep and go back to work, and I'm still just daily grind, and I just cannot I don't know. I'll get ahead at some point. So you know, we'll figure out what to do. I think another thing about just all our lives is we were always in such a rush. Like everything we did, it was such a rush. It was a rush to get to heaven. I mean, it was with everything, it was a rush to move here, and a rush to get the house clean, and a rush to go to the store. Just everything was a rush, and now it's so hard for me to just be like, you know what? I don't have to do that today. Like, there is a tomorrow, like the judgments aren't coming tomorrow, it's okay, you know. I don't know. It's just slow down. That doesn't have to happen this week.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:27

Like I don't have to move this year, because I have lots of years ahead of me, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:33

But I think one of the main things with our family though, is what we all need, at least what I benefited from, is like if it doesn't affect you, don't let it bother you, and don't let it ruin your life. And just like with the girls, Mary and the Barlows, it's sad and everything, but it's like it doesn't affect my personal life. Like, I don't have to live that. Way and also the more I try to get them to not, they're just gonna be stronger in it. So I'm like, if it doesn't affect you, just don't worry about it. Yeah, just let them live, and that's what I want people to do with me. Like, if if something I do doesn't affect your personal life, just let me do it. Yeah. Because I feel like we're all kind of in a mindset of because of how we were raised, is like if you tell me what to do, I'm gonna do the very exact opposite. Like fuck the hell out of you, you know? And I feel like I'm getting better with it, but when people start digging into my life and start making problems about it, I'm just like, get the fuck out of here. You know? It's not your deal, just go. You know?

SPEAKER_01 1:50:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:44

And I think that's why I kind of like distance right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:48

Well, I'm processing everything because like I can make mistakes and I can think weird things, and I don't have anybody there saying, No, you should look at it like this and like that and whatever. I don't know. It gets pretty lonely sometimes, but Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:02

No, I'm I'm totally fine with you living wherever you want. If you want to live in North Dakota, then I don't want to live in North Dakota.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:10

It is way too cold and windy there. It is not ideal, but I just love the mountains here. Yeah. It's funny because I you I try to come here and visit at least once a year because I know you mean I mean this is where my family is and stuff. But every time I come here I feel so closed in.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:28

Do you?

SPEAKER_02 1:51:28

Because of the mountains. Everywhere I look, there's just a wall around me, even though they're way out there, and I think it's just because I've been living in North Dakota for like eight years now, and I'm just so used to it just being sky, you know? It's weird. Like, I don't feel bad about it, I just feel like there's walls around me. But I know I would get used to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:49

It's interesting. North Dakota is okay, but it's not not where I want to like settle down or anything. So we'll figure that out in the future. That's the future goal.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:02

Yeah. So well, is there anything you want to talk about more?

SPEAKER_02 1:52:07

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:09

Like, we could I'm sure we could talk about quite a few more things.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:13

Yeah, but we can do that in the live.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:15

Yeah, we could.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:17

Um I think one thing that everybody should know is that it's very common for people who have been in a group and in a cult, it's very common when they leave, they kind of stay in the same mindset, and I don't mean religious wise. I just mean like everybody doing the same thing, or everybody looking the same, or like clothes wearing the same and stuff. So it's like we all come out here and yet we're still in our group, and we still kind of have the same traditions as everybody, and it's just like if you're not doing this, then you're weird, or whatever. And I think that distance has really like shown me like individuality is super important. Like, you can't find yourself until you truly like give yourself space to be like, I do like this and I don't like that, and you know, ask yourself the question instead of saying what do they think, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:13

It's amazing how the cult mentality is what hurts people. Like those girls, they probably would have never done something like that if they were individual, independent people.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:23

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:24

One of the reasons I was trying so hard to get like Mon to come away from the Bardo's is because I'm like, those all those people, they have no individuality. That is a cult, they're all doing what each other think they should do, and if one of them kind of goes out and does something different, they won't do it. And do you want to be try like trying to please them your whole fucking life?

SPEAKER_02 1:53:45

But the thing is, is you don't even realize how much you're striving to please someone until you get away from it.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:51

Like when I moved back up to North Dakota from Idaho and I had absolutely no one there, and I had no friends, I had no family there, and or anything, I would sit on my bed and just be like, what am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to wear today? Because I couldn't ask the girls, like, does this look weird? Or is my hair weird? Or do I look okay? There was just nobody. And it was in the tiniest little things, like, should I eat this? Like, is it weird to eat this, you know? And it was just because I was realizing like nobody's here to approve or disapprove. It's it's me deciding if I like it or not. And it's hard.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:25

And what the fuck do I think about that? It is like, is there anybody watching me? Oh, I think whatever the fuck you think.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:36

It's even still, I find myself like when I'm in a group of people and they have like really strong opinions about something, I'll just be like, yeah, whatever. You know, that's fine. Even though I know better in my head, like, yes or no, I don't like that. But even still, I'm just like, you know what, if you like that, that's okay. I I will not mess around with that, you know, because I I hate confrontation. I I do not like arguing and I don't know, unless it's in a good environment or whatever. I don't know. It's just crazy how the cult mindset is not just religion, it's with everything. It's with the I mean some people think you have to cut your hair a certain way or else you look weird, or I don't know. It's just interesting to watch. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:23

What a lot of people say about Utah. Like you have to fit into the culture here. You have to cut your hair a certain way. I'm not involved in it, so I like I don't give a fuck. But like a lot of people here say they feel like they need to dress a certain way, and everybody here does things a certain way.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:39

Yeah, it is, it's crazy. But it's that way in everything. Not I mean, it's funny because the more I'm out here, the more I see cults everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:49

It's like so in Fargo, then it's like the pride center of the I don't know if it's like the Midwest or something.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:58

Like they have pride holidays there that last for weeks, and it is like it is a cult. I swear. It is like people's religion. And like I have no problem with like people's identity and whatever they want to be, but it's like all the stores there and everything. They have like we love pride and everything, just so they can be accepted, and just so that everybody will like them and not sue them and all this stuff. And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is a cult. That's how everything is. It's just like, oh my gosh, this is a cult.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:33

Pretty much all politics.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:35

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:36

All all you you you really can't get an organization that's not a little bit culty.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:42

I agree, but even I worked at a golf course, and those golf people are in a cult.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:47

They are, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:48

It's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:49

And like high-end gyms are a cult.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:51

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:52

Uh it's all, yeah, everything's a fucking cult.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:55

Okay, but anytime fitness is a cult too. So like if you go to Planet Fitness and everybody else goes to Anytime, and it's like, you are so stupid and weird. I'm just like, I don't give a fuck. It's crazy. Uh but I think I see cults more than other people because of everything that I came out of and realized like what I do to please everybody because I'm so used to just going along and having a standard and having, you know, people say what I should think and where and do, and I don't know. It's it's crazy. Even in the music I like. It's interesting because even my sisters, I come down here and they all listen to the same kind of music. And my music is completely different from theirs. And I wonder, I ask myself, I'm like, if I had lived here all this time, would I be listening to that music just because I just didn't really think about going and finding something else, you know? I don't know. It's just things like that. It's like, how far does this affect me?

SPEAKER_00 1:57:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:59

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:00

No, it's real. Yeah. Uh what do you think the thing is when you're le when you leave and after you leave that causes like the most depression? And like, what do you think kind of pushes you past that? Because there's serious depression that comes. I would say the more you lose that identity and you get out of a cult and you do move away from everybody, like the more you do that. The more depressed it's gonna be the more depressing, the more depression you will deal with, the more you don't fit in with other people, the more you do say no, I'm not gonna just do what all you guys are doing. I'm gonna go figure out what I want. Like, the closer like you get to like serious depression.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:47

I would say the closer you get to serious depression, the closer you are to finding yourself. And like finding who you really are and not what other people tell you tell you you are. I don't know. It's hard because I've dealt with depression a lot and I've I've been in some pretty bad and low situations, and it's like the things that got me there was yes, the stuff that was happening to me in the moment, but it was also you just you don't have an identity, and it's like why am I even here? Why am I even trying to do this when there's not I'm not living to see God tomorrow anymore? Like, what am I living for? What am I even here for? And yeah, it's it's pretty hard to deal with, especially when you're on your own. It's like it's a fight every day. I don't know. I think it's different for everyone, it all depends on what you love and what you do and stuff, and I even deal with it still. Like I don't think it will go all the way away. Like I can't say, oh, I'm over that and past that, because I still deal with it, but I think just like like starting my art business and stuff, just like having something to look forward to or something you love, just like when you are that depressed, you have to think, what in this moment do I want? Like, do I want ice cream? Do I want to go outside? Do I want to watch a movie? You know, what do I want in this moment? And if you can get yourself through this moment and then the next and then the next, then I think eventually after even I mean, even after a few months, then you'll kind of get into the habit of like, what am I looking forward to, or what can I plan, or something to get you out of it, and it's a struggle, it's not easy.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:30

And that's the th one of the reasons that those people are so controllable is because they're unwilling to go through that.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:40

So I was um talking to one of my sisters and I was like, So do you believe in mental health? Like, because I didn't used to. I used to think, oh, that's just stupid, they're just being dumb. And I was like, Do you believe in mental health? And she was like, I don't know why it's such a big deal, because I just tell myself to get over it, and I'm like, Okay, yeah, you're not ready to have this conversation. Because I feel like once you realize mental health is a thing, it becomes such a big thing. It's like anything can affect it, and you realize that all those emotions you've had all your life, it was your mental health. And it was you dealing with things you just didn't know how. And I feel like a lot of people choose controlling situations because they don't have to strip away their identity, they don't have to start deciding for themselves. So they just choose to be in a life that they consider easy because they don't have to go through And they can look strong, like, oh we're stable.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:39

Yeah. Yeah, the fuck you are, you're controllable as fuck, too.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:43

Yeah, you're just slaves for real, I know. I don't know, I think mental health will probably be a probably the longest journey of my life because I've really struggled with it. But I also think that people can use it as as an excuse. Like it can be um what's the word?

SPEAKER_00 2:02:06

Um It can be a victim.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:09

You can turn it it can be what's the word? Abused. Uh mental health can be abused. Like people turn it into a victim mindset or they blame other people for doing this to them and oh, you're affecting my mental health. So I think people do have to be very careful and make sure they're focusing on themselves and not focusing on the other people around them. So a lot of people around them will say I'm having mental health because of all these other things, when really if they looked at themselves and be like, Well, what am I doing? Am I exposing myself to this person and it's hurting me? Like, should I pull back on that? Like, it's not that person's fault, maybe, maybe it's something you need to change. So I think that's something that's important to not become a victim. Like, we are all victims, and I think it's really hard for me to admit that because I don't want to be like, oh poor me, I'm a victim, you know. But I do need to realize I am a victim, and things did happen to me, but that doesn't mean that's my identity. Like I get to create my own identity now because I'm free and no one's controlling me over anything. So even though mental health is a big issue for me, like I have control of it, and it's not because of anybody else, you know. Yeah I don't I think a lot of the victim mindset is blaming other people when you could look at yourself and change something with like your environment or like try to find a different opinion about something, or I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:40

I think everybody deals with it differently, but well, your brain is an organ, it literally is an organ, and it has the capacity to make decisions and to orient you. Like at the end of the day, everything you see in the world, everything that you think about the world, any way that you can see something differently, it's all in your brain, and you'll notice that the organizations and the people that don't like mental health, like in the FLDS, it's like, oh, you need some fucking mental health, get over yourself, right? Yeah, like any cult's that way. It's and the reason why is because control of your brain, mental health is gaining control and maintaining a healthy organ of a brain, it's maintaining a healthy identity. Yeah, and every one of these organizations that are like, oh, mental health isn't that important, like your brain is some, I don't know, far-fetched whatever, yeah. It's like, no, this is an organ that needs taken care of, like it needs the appropriate nutrients, and then it also like how how you see the world is basically all in that organ. So if it's seeing the world in a crooked way and somebody doesn't want you to see the world differently, well then just avoid mental health. How about that?

SPEAKER_02 2:05:03

Yeah. But then there's also where you get to the point where you don't want yourself to see the world in a different way. I think that's how my sisters are a little bit. It's like we have the best life and they won't explore the world because they don't want to admit that there is um something controlling them or even mental health involved. So I feel like you kind of turn yourself into a victim eventually. Because you won't allow yourself to like find out what's out there and figure out what's wrong and figure out how you actually feel and not just how you think someone else wants you to feel.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:38

I agree. And you take your brain and you refuse to let it see the world in a different way, and then you just go the rest of your life like that. Like, okay, that's fine if you want to do that, but there is the opportunity, especially in certain in some of our lives, we are given the opportunity to see the world in a different way. If you think about it, when we were leaving Short Creek uh that one time, that first time, yeah, like that was one of the best opportunities of my life. Because now this brain I have has the opportunity to see more, to understand more. Like that was a huge opportunity. Really painful, yes. Really like hard to deal with, yes, but a huge opportunity to escape like the bullshit that Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:33

Well, what I'd say about that time is the the thing that we thought was the worst and the hardest experience we went through was probably actually the best thing that could have happened. Like even though it was shitty and we went aga and it went against everything we had been living for, it was probably the best thing that could have happened to get us to where we are now. And even like all the stuff that happened with my sisters and all the you know, I actually I don't want to just accuse someone else, but it was mental abuse. And even all that mental abuse that I experienced and that we all experienced, if we if we hadn't gone through that, we probably would not have left when we did. We probably would not be free and independent like we are now. So even though it was really shitty and we have trauma from it now, like what else could have happened to get us to where we are now? I don't know. So I know it happened for a reason, but I don't like that it happened.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:34

Yeah, I agree. And that's why sometimes when I think like I see dad's decision to like push me out here and push me out there and here and there, and I'm like, Dad, how did you know this was gonna be so good for me?

SPEAKER_02 2:07:48

Well, that's what I mean, is like, does he realize the mistake he I don't think so? Because like to me, it's not a mistake because I mean I needed that, but for his cause, like he has pushed so many people out. And does he realize it? Does he realize like the damage he caused to his work? It's insane.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:09

Like if I was trying to build a church, I would never do that. It's just stupid.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:14

I agree. I mean, you could think of a like sometimes I want to give dad the benefit of the doubt and be like, he's slowly destroying this on purpose in a wise way.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:26

Um, to your point, I almost I was thinking about his trial in El Dorado and how he had almost got free before that. His attorneys had literally got his case dismissed.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:37

And then they brought him to Texas, and I'm pretty sure they could have done the same thing, but right when it was gonna happen, he fired his attorneys. And I'm like, what in that moment did he really think he was doing the work of God, or in that moment did he actually come to reality and feel a little bit of guilt and be like, it's okay if I go to prison? Like, that was like the stupidest thing to do to fire all those attorneys that could have gotten him free and he could be literally running the church right now.

SPEAKER_00 2:09:04

If you look at everything dad has done since 2011, it is put people through enough pain to where they leave. Yeah. In in not the worst way, like him sending us away from the crick, like that was really painful, but it could have been a lot worse. Oh yeah, he could have done that a lot worse.

SPEAKER_01 2:09:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:09:24

Um, so I don't know. Like, in some sometimes I look at what dad's been doing over the last ten years, and I'm like, is he trying to destroy the mindset?

SPEAKER_02 2:09:38

You know what I'm saying? Which really makes you wonder because he's made some incredibly stupid decisions.

SPEAKER_00 2:09:44

And if he was trying to destroy the mindset, it's the smartest decision.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:48

And the thing is, is um if he suddenly was just like, don't live this way, nobody would believe him. Right. But doing it this way, oh, it's worked. Oh, it's worked. It's definitely worked.

SPEAKER_00 2:09:57

That's what I'm saying. Like, I wonder if back in 2006, when he said, I'm not the prophet, if he like he understands cult mindsets really well.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:06

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:07

He might understand that putting people through insane contradictions and pain is what frees your mind.

SPEAKER_01 2:10:16

Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:16

He might because it's true that if dad one day was like, look, guys, we are in a cult, people wouldn't believe him, and then after a year, they would go start, they would go live in the another cult.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:28

Totally, oh, completely. So, and I think if he you know, I don't really know what's going on in his head because he just seems insane to me. But if he is thinking that, then I I don't see any other way to dismantle a cult. Not except for hurting people enough to where they are like, you it's true.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:48

He and have you ever heard this conspiracy theory that the Mormon church sent grandfather in to like dismantle the FLDS?

SPEAKER_02 2:11:00

I heard that, but do you think I don't really think it's I don't believe it. Okay, but even if it was true, do you think that he was convinced that he was doing the wrong thing? Or do you think that this has been a a 30-year-long?

SPEAKER_00 2:11:12

Oh, it's 70-year.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:13

70-year-long. That would be insane.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:19

I don't I don't believe that.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:20

It's I would kind of be surprised because like he had to divorce his wife and everything.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:26

Okay, but that's what makes it believe he would have never become a leader of the FLDS if he if he didn't go through that.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:32

I know, but it seems like they would have chosen someone who didn't have a wife.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:36

But they wouldn't have become a leader like that.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:38

That's true, that is true. To show that they can sacrifice anything.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:42

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:43

Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:45

Well, I do think like what dad has done to the FLDS is truly the most beneficial thing for the people in the FLDS over the last ten years. Because if he just told them, like, leave, they would just be a part of other cults. And I'm not saying he's actually doing that on purpose, but it's the more he the more time goes on, the more it looks like he's doing it on purpose.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:17

Yeah. Because why would you keep harming your church like that? Like why would you keep doing that to your members if you truly wanted it to stay together?

SPEAKER_00 2:12:25

Okay, but if you look back over since Dad took over, like every decision he's made has been like that. It's like he has the ability to make people be so devoted to him, even in the contradictions, that it makes them be like, what the fuck? Like after ten years, they're like, oh my god, what is my problem? How did I believe this dude? Like every decision he's made since he's become the prophet has been a contradictory, insane decision.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:02

You know, it would make sense even with telling people they can't have children because the younger generation is going to eventually leave. They're going to eventually want children. I'm telling you, like And if he isn't doing it on purpose, then he's just totally insane because that's just stupid.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:16

Okay, but like, even if he was insane. Some part of him is like some part of him knows what he's doing.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:25

Like, it is truly genius how he is destroyed. You can't destroy a cult like that. I know. It's hard.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:33

Yeah. And yeah, telling them outright they're not gonna believe you, especially when you've um conditioned them for so long. Yeah, that's crazy. I don't know, but whatever whatever his intentions are, I I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know because he is so insane. He changes his mind way too much. Unless he's at least on the outside, it looks like he does.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:57

It does.

SPEAKER_02 2:13:58

Maybe he's this master cult mastermind.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:02

Unculting.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:04

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 2:14:06

I'm not so.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:07

I wish we could talk to him. I wish we could ask him if he feels bad. Bad about like separating us from our mothers or like accusing us and taking our complete image out of us. Like I wish I could be like, Dad, do you feel bad? Do you even wonder how we feel? Or did you even consider us? Like, what is going through your mind?

SPEAKER_00 2:14:27

That's why I don't believe that he is trying to dismantle it. Yeah. Because well, unless he understands you have to hurt people that bad.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:37

But Yeah, but sometimes hurting people makes them even more faithful. So is his To a certain point. So is his um mindset to hurt everyone and figure out who's the most faithful? Or to like see who can handle the most?

SPEAKER_00 2:14:52

Here's the thing. We know everybody up there in North Dakota now is fucking insane. Like those guys are scared.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:04

They are living there, they go to stores whenever they want, they w go on the internet whenever they want, they wear whatever color they want, they do whatever they want. They eat whatever they want. So it's like now they're just kind of interpreting for themselves what they should do. They're lying for themselves. So it's like how faithful are they really? They're just they're just not wearing different clothes or saying they support this when their actions show something completely different. So it's like those people in North Dakota, it's not like they're these faithful human beings.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:35

Oh, they're not, but what I'm saying is they're in s some of them are actually insane. I know. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:43

I know.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:43

It's it's it's like when you guys left, or and maybe the other I I'd say the other girls were more out of their minds than you were. Like I talked to some of those guys and oh my god, just reason them with them.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:57

It's like, what is wrong with you?

SPEAKER_00 2:15:58

Right after they left, it's like, no, you actually are insane. And now they're not because they've been gone for this long.

SPEAKER_02 2:16:07

But okay, but even I don't know if this should be on the podcast, but even talking to those girls, they are comparing their husbands to see who has the better husband and who has the better life, and I have this in my house, and my husband deals with this situation this way, and I am like, oh my god, oh my god, this is insane. You're so in a cult. Like, I would not want to be in that environment, but I don't know if they realize it, and I don't know if the reason I realize it is because I've been away from it. I don't know. It's insane.

SPEAKER_00 2:16:47

Yeah, and sometimes I wonder, like, what don't I realize?

SPEAKER_02 2:16:51

Oh, that me too. Sometimes I'll even ask people, I'll be like, Do I do this weird or does this seem off or whatever? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 2:17:00

I consider pretty much anybody's point of view.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:02

Yeah, that's kind of how I am too. Unless it truly affects me in a negative way. Like if it that's especially if it comes with pressure. So like if someone wants to tell me their point of view, but then they start trying to convince me to believe that, that is when I'm like, okay, I've had enough. Like, fuck you.

SPEAKER_00 2:17:22

You're in your own cult.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:25

Yeah, so I I like to consider people's points of view because I know I don't fully know all what my opinions are. Like, I know some of my opinions are still influenced by the cult and everything, so it's like if someone does have a different opinion, I want to hear it, that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. And that's one of my big things is like I'm so used to agreeing with everyone I'm around and changing my opinion so fast because that's what we always did. And now I'm like, do I really agree with that? Or did I just hear someone that is kind to me say that, you know? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 2:18:00

Yeah. Well, thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:05

Yeah, it's been a long time coming.

SPEAKER_00 2:18:07

Let's do it again. Yeah, we should sometime. Uh, but you should tell people where to find your art.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:15

Okay. So I started a little art company, and it's mostly just like 3D wall art, but honestly, I can make just about anything. I mean, it's it's very healing to create stuff, at least for me. And so I started a little art company. I have a website and everything, and we um it's papergardenart.com online. That's the website name, and we'll put it in the video, hopefully. Oh, yeah. In the comments. Um, I have Facebook, Instagram, it's all paper gardens, that's the name of the business.

SPEAKER_00 2:18:57

So and everything she's doing like by hand, you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:19:01

She's it's all handmade, it's all very custom. So like one piece is never gonna be exactly the same as the next piece. So like if you order two of them, I'll try to make them the same, but like, you know how homemade stuff goes. It's just like it's never always going to be the same. But I guess that's the our that's the genuineness of it. So I don't know. It's really fun, and I make stuff for kids' rooms, for um, you know, mom mother's day, any holiday, any birthday, they're really good for gifts. You can decorate your house with them. Honestly, if you have an idea, send me an email. I will totally see what I can do because I just love creating. So that's my that's my healing thing that I do. Like sit down and do some art and you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:19:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:19:57

So um come and order some art.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:00

Yeah, and you know, if you guys know I am the prophet. Like you accept that, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:20:07

Yeah, he's the one man.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:10

Mother knows it too.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:15

Oh, she thinks it's getting to your head. I told her we need to come and hear Jaden's sermon on the mount. She was like, stop. I was like, come on, mom, it's funny.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:35

Anyway, you guys know I'm the prophet, and there is a special hellfire for people that don't go order something from papergardens.com. Right?

SPEAKER_02 2:20:51

Papergardenart.com.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:52

Papergardenart.com. And there like me and God, I've been talking with him lately, and we have worked out this special little spot in hell that's a little bit hotter and a little bit worse than everywhere else. And people that get art from this website, they they're not gonna have to experience that. But I'm gonna have to have me and God have come up with a good solution for like this special spot. We have like special coal and everything made up that's gonna burn hotter. So go to my sister's website if you don't want to experience this insane hellfire and order a piece of art. They're the best things ever. Uh, I'm gonna order some. Pretty soon you're gonna see more and more decorations going up on my walls, and we're gonna have like the best art ever from papergarden art.com.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 2:21:50

Okay. So you guys know the spill. Now CNN.

SPEAKER_02 2:21:53

I'm gonna put the verb God in you.

SPEAKER_00 2:21:57

Do you have any final words?

SPEAKER_02 2:22:00

Um well, about the art business, it is it's very focused on custom stuff. So, like, you'll go on there and you'll see, you know, what I have made so far, but what I kind of my goal is to like, if you can't find your piece somewhere that you look that you're looking for, or something that would make your room look perfect or whatever, just like send an email, send a description, anything. Like, you can order more than what's on the website, and I will like try to design it for you and you know come up with prices and ideas and all that stuff. So that's mainly my goal with my business, is so that people can have somewhere to come for custom stuff that they can't find other places.

SPEAKER_00 2:22:43

So make sure you're charging enough.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:22:47

That's the biggest mistake for new people.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:50

It's really hard to know what to charge because it does take a lot of time, but then I'm like, but will people buy it if it's they will expensive?

SPEAKER_00 2:22:58

I I just talked them into it.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:02

Yeah, you guys, listen to the prophet. The mantle has fallen upon him.

SPEAKER_00 2:23:11

Um I think you should like be making at least$30 an hour when or more. And then as your pieces get more advanced and more quality, then you should be making higher and higher.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:29

Yeah. You know, well, it also depends on sizes, like everything can come in different sizes. So like smaller ones will obviously be cheaper and stuff, but it also depends on materials and it's right.

SPEAKER_00 2:23:40

So, like after you buy the materials, after think about the time that you're working on your website, the time that you're working on the art, the time like everything needs to add up. So, like after all your expenses are paid and your bills are paid and everything, yeah, then you're making at least$30 an hour.

SPEAKER_01 2:23:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:23:58

You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 2:23:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:00

But if you make more, then help fire will be less for everybody else.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:08

I'm just anyway.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:10

Yeah, I I think art is very healing. Or, you know, advice I would give to everybody is find something you love. Like, don't just go through every day and survive. Like, you gotta find something you love, whether it's music or going outside or making art or creating something or even going out and like volunteering at animal shelters. I don't care what it is, find something because if you don't, then you will not have a reason to get up in the morning. And when you lose the reason to get up in the morning, then it's just really hard. Yeah. So I think if you have a passion, then it will get you through the days, even the hard days.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:51

Yeah, for some of us that's talking our sisters into coming on podcasts.

SPEAKER_02 2:24:56

Yeah. I'm gonna convince them all someday. I mean, Jaden's found his hobby, so that's good.

SPEAKER_00 2:25:06

Well, thanks so much for coming, Sienna. Uh tell everybody anything else you want them to know before we and we're we'll do a live together.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:14

Yeah, we should do a live together later.

SPEAKER_00 2:25:19

You're always invited to come back too.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:22

Yeah. It's fun because I live where nobody is. Like nobody from the cult is there, so it's nice to have people to talk to just about it because they just get it, you know. And some people are just like, okay, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 2:25:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:37

So everybody leave the cult you're in and don't go to another one. That's what I have to say. And if it doesn't affect you, don't worry about it. Don't try to change other people and what they're doing, because it usually makes them stronger in what they're doing. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 2:25:57

Okay. Well, wise advice. Uh thanks everybody for coming. Thanks everybody for watching. Reminder to go buy Sienna's art at PapergardenArt.com. PaperArt and Paper Papergarden. Is it Gardens or Gardens?

SPEAKER_02 2:26:14

Paper GardenArt.

SPEAKER_00 2:26:15

PapergardenArt.com. Okay, thanks everybody. We'll see you next time. Peace out.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:21

Peace.