The Jaden Jeffs Podcast

Episode 65 | My 13 Year Old Sister Died to Save Our Mom

• Jaden Jeffs • Episode 65

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Get Andrews Book: Escaping the Kingdom of God (Amazon / Audible): https://a.co/d/0bPrfiaX

Escaping the Kingston Group (The Order): Andrew Robinson on Abuse, Forced Labor, and Leaving Polygamy | The Jaden Jeffs Podcast

On The Jaden Jeffs Podcast, Jaden interviews Andrew Robinson, who was born into the Kingston Group (The Order/Davis County Cooperative Society) as the son of Daniel Kingston’s third wife; Daniel had up to 14 wives and an estimated 160 children, and Andrew says Daniel was abusive, controlling, and kept families separated. Andrew describes childhood forced labor at the farm, limited schooling and sex education, social anxiety, and a marriage process requiring approvals from Paul Kingston and parents, with expectations to propose on a first date. He recounts his mother’s cancer being treated with a YouTube-found regimen, his sister Rachel running to police over abuse, being returned home, and later dying by suicide, after which his mother died soon after. Andrew says COVID and cult-exposure videos helped him recognize the group as a scam, and he and his wife left with help from Holding Out Help; he urges members to “unpack the boxes” and stop lying to themselves. He promotes his book, "Escaping the Kingdom of God."

00:59 Meet Andrew Robinson
01:50 Marriage Age and Hierarchy
02:56 Abuse and Farm Labor
06:24 Kingston Leadership Explained
07:46 Incest and Normalized Praise
11:38 Puberty Without Sex Ed
18:52 Resenting a Violent Father
20:40 Shyness and Forced Isolation
24:32 Sunday Night Dread
28:31 Dances and Mom’s Push
34:08 Direction to Choose a Wife
38:41 First Date Proposal Pressure
40:45 Fighting for Permission
42:58 Engagement Yes Moment
43:51 Quick Wedding Culture
45:30 Order Money System
48:46 New Marriage Reality
51:26 Shelfing Doubts
54:17 Mom’s Cancer Control
01:00:16 Rachel Runs Away
01:07:07 Aftermath and Blame
01:17:15 Leaving the Order
01:26:09 Polygamy Pressure
01:30:50 Rewiring as a Parent
01:36:41 Therapy and Trauma Humor
01:41:07 Faith and Final Advice

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SPEAKER_02

Okay, so it's twenty twenty one, so five years.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Should be good. The Air Force?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Nice. Well, yeah. Yeah, let's give these give these headphones a try and see.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. I probably I should probably not also not disclose that I work at the Air Force because you know the doxing. Yeah. There's a lot of people that don't like me in order.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well let's not say that.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, I don't mind um saying um that I do work in um in the I guess that field of work. Uh computer programming.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, for sure. Uh is your volume good or can you hear me alright? Yeah, I can hear you pretty good. Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's a bit different when you have the headphones on. Feels like uh almost a virtual.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Okay, can you pull the mic just burning closer? Yeah. There you go. Alright. If you wanna so I'll just like do a podcast introduction, and then you can introduce yourself after I do the introduction. And let's see. You just want to be introduced as Andrew Robinson or Yeah. Okay. Sounds good. Okay. Where would you like your book?

SPEAKER_02

Um I don't know. I mean, we we we can like just pull it out eventually, like towards the end or whatever, just so okay. Yeah, it was nice. Writing it is more of a form of therapy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. Yeah, we can maybe put it right here.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that works.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, well, that does work. It just has to be you comfortable?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, as much as I could be.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. You you nervous?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I need to just get over it. I was hoping like interviews like this would help me get over that. That's why I just do women. I I think it probably just looks awkward. But it's Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01

We'll make you look good. Don't be worried. Okay. Guess if you're ready, then we'll start.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Just make sure my phone's on silent. All right. Andrew Robinson. I'll tell you ever I'll tell, I'll introduce you as Andrew Robinson. Then you can kind of tell people your story. Alright. Welcome everybody. This is the Jaden Jeffs Podcast. Today I'm joined by a fellow from the Kingston Group or the Order, Andrew Robinson. Uh Andrew, if you want to introduce yourself and tell everyone anything you want them to know about ya.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Um, so yeah, my name's Andrew Robinson. I was born in the Order, the Pygamous Group, also known as the Davis County Cooperative Society. Um my mom was the third wife to Daniel Kingston. Um at one point he had 14 wives. I think right now he has 11 living.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well thanks. Thanks, Andre, for coming, and uh we'll we'll just get into your story here. Uh so when you look back over your life, because you got married there in the Kingston group, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, at 21.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. You got married at 21? Yeah. Okay. Is that kind of the typical age people get married there? Um if you're a guy, you're lucky to get married at 21. Okay. So. So you felt important?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I guess so.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Yeah. Okay. When when do they usually get married?

SPEAKER_02

Um, guys. It honestly it's changing a lot. I like I heard, um, especially with Daniel's family, he has a lot of single boys over the age of 18. I think it's like over half of his boys over 18 are single. Okay. So it it depends on the family you're in. If you're like one of Patty's kids, one of Paul's kids, or Patty's kids, uh, more particular, then you can have uh a few wives by the time you're 18.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um, so Dan Daniel, your dad, he he was one of the guys that beat his kids a lot, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, he's I think the only one that actually went to jail for child abuse, but you know, when he was um supposedly in jail, he had like he was able to leave during the day and he continued beating his kids during the day. Oh. From what I I thought from what I remember, I think he just needed to be there at night. Uh I don't know if that was the majority of the time or in jail. Yeah. Okay. But he was out uh during a lot of the days.

SPEAKER_01

What interested you as a kid? Like what was interesting to you?

SPEAKER_02

Um I don't know. We I guess when I was younger then liked video games, cartoons, I think pretty a lot of pretty normal stuff. Uh we would try to be good so we wouldn't have like get pulled out of our mom's home and like work up at the farm, because that was one thing that was always a possibility. Um and typically every summer, if you didn't have summer school, then you're working up at the farm. And what that entails is uh like 12 years old or younger, um, you're waking up at maybe 640 in the morning, 6 30, got to work and eat breakfast, you rush down to uh the meeting place, you have morning meeting, and then you just start working the fields the rest of the day. And uh what you go to home to at night is a sleeping bag on a lawn, so you just sleep on the ground. You just slept on the ground. Yeah, there wasn't really any parent uh supervision. You kind of just expected to uh Yeah. I I I would just resemble it to we were just slaves.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Do you feel like your childhood gave you kind of an avoidant personality where you kind of don't confront people?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. It it like even though our group is very um excluded from the outside, like you also have inner groups in the group that are also excluded from uh uh I guess other parts of the order.

SPEAKER_01

And um you felt like you were kind of on the outside of the inner groups, maybe?

SPEAKER_02

Well, being one of Daniel's kids, Daniel had access to resources, so we were kind of side by side by some of them that had more access to maybe do things that they want to do or um access to um maybe communicate with other families more, but like even in Daniel's family, he tried to keep some families in his family separated from other parts of his own own family. That's on top of separated from other families in the group, and then also the group being separated from the order, I guess the rest of the world.

SPEAKER_01

So just so people know, how many wives did Daniel have, and what's his relation to Paul Kingston, who's what the kind of like the prophet, you know?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so Daniel is the older brother to the current leader, Paul. Um like the big brother. Yeah. Yeah, and there there was a time where it it sounded like they that maybe he would have been the leader, but then I guess it worked out that Paul was. And what Daniel would tell us in Is that God's choice or um I me personally I think it's just due to capabilities. I think Paul was a little bit smarter. Okay. Able to or had more charismatic uh care like characteristics. And but like Daniel's response was he's glad he wasn't the leader because then he wouldn't be able to do the things he does.

SPEAKER_01

So like beat his kids as hard and yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I I I I think that's what it would be, um, or just be more crazy because the members don't have to tie to him so they could kind of just excuse his. So many wives? Oh yeah. Uh he had 14 wives. Okay. And yeah, my mom was the third.

SPEAKER_01

And what was your relationship or or your mom's relationship with your dad?

SPEAKER_02

He she was his half-brother, so really? Yeah, so I'm an incest baby.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Dang. Like, so they have the same father.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, same father. I have one grandpa.

SPEAKER_01

Oh wow. That is insane. That's insane. I don't think I've ever met somebody like that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. And do you feel like there's um some weight with that, like how other people feel about you?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I I would say like what I guess I joke, I tell I tell myself that my birth was a sin. It was also against the law. And um like yeah, you you do hear all those uh expectations that people have uh foresee, or I guess what they expect an incest baby would be. But uh I hope I don't have a lot of those characteristics.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I guess that's one way to make the family reunion a little more compact.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well it it doesn't really matter because there's still a lot of a lot of people. Yeah. So it doesn't really make it smaller, like a smaller event. It's still huge.

SPEAKER_01

But I feel like it's a scam to not have a choice between who your favorite grandpa is. Yeah. Like you just you just have to add the same one.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, it's the same one. And it it's like like what what do I think of it as when wh when I was growing up, it was just it was normal, it's just what it was.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it was totally normal to you. Yeah. So the guys in the Kingston group, they never mocked you or anything for having the same grandpa.

SPEAKER_02

No, they actually praise it, they encourage it and say it's uh like a blessing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, yeah, I just don't want you to feel like we're judging you, you know, because that's the thing is we can't control where we came from, you know, so I don't want you to feel like I'm judging you or you know, mocking you for you know, maybe coming from incest or whatever, because like even me, probably a little bit.

SPEAKER_02

So Yeah, well, if you look at history, I think at one point everyone has some incest in their ancestry.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's probably true. Okay, so as a young boy, were you pretty happy or how was life?

SPEAKER_02

Um there's for sure a lot of happy moments. Uh what do you mean? Like eating popcorn or um, well, it it's like, yeah, we are born into this family, but um like you're born in and I I had a lot of like Daniel's boys that were my age or within age range. That yeah, we did hang out a lot, we grew up together. Um we did fun things like we we'd had open mics, we had game nights. Um there and like make some jokes or um no, I I tried to sing a couple times. Okay, I don't know how that was.

SPEAKER_01

Is that what you did at the open mics, is sing? Yeah. Okay. So kind of like karaoke night.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. I I would say most of them were musical numbers, if not all of them. Gotcha. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so as you get older, uh like when you hit puberty, for example, how was that experience for you as far as like your connection with the people around ya? How did you start seeing the world differently?

SPEAKER_02

Um We don't really have much um sex ed education. Right. Like the only education you have is just keep yourself clean down there and don't touch yourself. Um but yeah, I I would say at that time then it was probably not normal. They they decided to separate the genders uh in school, so yeah, there wasn't really much interaction, which uh I guess would also contribute to not being able to communicate with like girls or you struggle socially. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So like if if me and you both uh decided to walk up to a girl and ask her for a number, then uh we'd both be awkward.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Because I'm married, I'd probably I'll probably just have to ask for you. Yeah. Okay. But I don't know, I'd say right now, it's just at the point where I I it's just gonna be awkward. I just I'll just do it anyways. Yeah. Just to kind of try to get better at it.

SPEAKER_01

Sure. Okay. Um, I just heard this rumor that, or I was talking to some of the other Kingstons, that the boys in the order or the men are like super horny. And there's a lot of like kind of crazy sexual stuff going on in the young young man, and then the boy as the boys get older, you know, hitting 18. And I just wondered, like, as a boy, what was your what was the talk like? Was there no sex talk? Was there jokes? Was there did you guys look at or talk about girls at all? Like, what was the I'm trying to understand the dynamic of how the boy view of the world is?

SPEAKER_02

I would say that um even just being in Daniel's family, it wasn't the same as what I see other families experiencing because Daniel always kept us really busy. Then we yeah, we would like talk to each other and say, yeah, I I think I had direction on, or I want to pursue this girl. And as far as like jokes about it, n we wouldn't really joke about it, but we would hear rumors of other families um engaging into like actual physical things, and we we would just we would just wonder, like, man, if we did that in our family, then we would be judged so much harshly.

SPEAKER_01

Because yeah, Daniel was so in some sense you felt like you were pretty pure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You had a pretty pure mind. Um as far as a pure mind, then like yeah, you ha you have thoughts when going through puberty, especially, but as far as acting on anything, then at least the age group that I grew up with in Daniel's family, then I don't know if like many people, most of them didn't like really act on anything.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I would never judge you for having thoughts or even wanting something, you know. I would I would just I would judge the outlets that are appropriate, you know. Yeah. And so I'm not I'm not judging you for because like I was horny when I was when I hit puberty. You know? It just happens. Yeah. Thank God it happens, you know, like we're human. So yeah, we're I'm I'm just kind of trying to understand the dynamic because you know, I've heard so many stories. So you feel like maybe is it like Paul's family, maybe, or Paul's boys get away with more sexual things, or they're more open sexually with a bunch of that stuff, or like which which part of the Kingstons? Is it the lower side of the Kingstons or the the higher side of the Kingstons that are more kind of sexually insane, would you say?

SPEAKER_02

Um I would say Paul's family. Like, yeah, we'd hear a bunch of rumors of of that stuff. Like, so yeah, they got away with a lot of stuff. As far as like families on the outer circles, then um yeah, they definit definitely had different standards.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Is that is that too uncomfortable of a question? Or um do you not mind?

SPEAKER_02

No, I I don't mind it. It's and I think some of it too is like uh things change over time. Yeah. I I grew up in a generation where I I felt like we were actually pretty good kids. Okay. But like 2000. Yeah. Yeah, 2000. Because what year were you born? 91. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. And but yeah, I feel like maybe the younger generation, even in Dial's family, uh seems to get away with a lot more stuff than what we could have.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. It's kind of wild that he was having kids back then. And he's he's still having kids now, right?

SPEAKER_02

I don't know if he's having kids still. I I think all the wives are getting a bit too old. Because yeah, they're getting pretty old now.

SPEAKER_01

Well, how old is uh Daniel?

SPEAKER_02

Pretty sure he's in his upper sixties, if not seventies.

SPEAKER_01

How many w or uh how many kids did he have like among all his wives?

SPEAKER_02

Um we don't even have an exact number. Can you guess? I I would say like in the 160 range. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And where would you be in that? Kind of the first or

SPEAKER_02

Um I would say in the not the first, but like the first phases, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01

Somewhere like 40 or 50 or maybe close.

SPEAKER_02

Maybe. Maybe like 50 to s 50 to 70, maybe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Do you resent your dad for not loving you more? Or do you feel like he loved you?

SPEAKER_02

Um, I know he didn't. He just viewed us as a tool to to be used however he wanted it. Um, do I resent him? I don't like him. Yeah. I don't respect him. I I I kinda just come to the idea of I I had a bad dad, and that's just reality. And that just happens.

SPEAKER_01

So if you had the opportunity to punch him in the face, would you do it or would you just leave him alone?

SPEAKER_02

Um, no, I wouldn't. Just because I I have a family, I have responsibilities, I I don't want to go to jail. Um I I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

Would you just let him I'm just trying to get your feeling. Like, no consequences. Would you would you leave him alone or? Um, sorry to say. Okay. Yeah. You're not sure on that. Yeah, I'm not sure. We'll put you in a room together and see what happens. No, the last time.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I met up with him. Well, not really met up, he just went to an event that I was also at, and I had my wife and kids, and I just told him um to frick off.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And we don't we don't want anything to do with him.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Did you believe in your religion when you were a boy?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. I would say that starts phase phasing out typically, I would imagine for most people when they start going through puberty. Oh really.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So can you kind of tell me the story of getting a little bit older from twelve to twenty? And then when when you were gonna start getting married and and whatnot?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, 12 to 20. Um yeah, I I guess I was really nervous around people. It got to a point, and this was probably even at like 16 or 17 years old, where I would not approach anyone. Um I'm rem like there was a instance where I was at the store, I guess Walmart, and um I was looking for something um, and like there was an associate and one of my brothers that I was with, he said, go ask him where it might be, and I I told him I would rather leave the store.

SPEAKER_01

Dude, the other day I was at Walmart and I was walking through the aisle, and there's this insanely hot girl in uh Walmart vest, you know, she's like stocking shelves. Yeah. I'm like, damn, you gotta do a lot to like be that hot and be working here at Walmart. That's insane. Yeah. Um, so you d you didn't even want to talk to the associate.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, like and at that time I wouldn't even go to dances because I didn't know how to approach a girl to ask him to dance.

SPEAKER_01

But I see. Was that just like super awkward? You just like stood over in the corner and were just kind of quiet and just like I'm not gonna say anything.

SPEAKER_02

I just didn't go.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, you just didn't go. You're just too nervous to even go. Yep. You didn't even want to talk to a girl. I I already knew I wasn't going to.

SPEAKER_02

And why was that? Um I think it's because of the circumstances we were put in. Uh so right after eighth grade, then um our schooling was it was Penn Foster. They just give us a pile of books and say, alright, go learn. At the same time, we're also moved up to the farm, so we have to work from before the sun comes up to after the sun sets, and then we need to go go learn by ourselves. And it was with a small group of people. We was living in a a home with one of the one of my one of my dad's wives. She didn't like us, and um yeah, that didn't make it easier, but it was like a small group of maybe seven people for just a few years during those um like probably yeah, eighth grade all the way up to 17. So I didn't I didn't approach anyone.

SPEAKER_01

I were you were you corrected by your father or even beat for like doing anything with a girl when you were younger, say when you were even even from the time you were seven to all the way to the time you were twenty, like what is the reason you were so closed off from people?

SPEAKER_02

Um I think the biggest reason is just some characteristics that I inherited and then just the circumstances that I was also put in. I think that contributed the most to it.

SPEAKER_01

Um Do you think you were just pushed to work instead of having a social life? Is that part of it?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, I guess like w one example to um kind of understand the frame of mind. So what one of the things we dreaded the most was Sunday nights, because that was the night that you're you're done with church, you go back up to the farm, and you're just everyone's depressed. You know, you got you gotta work another week, you're not really getting paid. And like I remember just sitting there with some of my brothers, and um I smiled because I thought of something funny, and my one of my brothers turned to me and said, Why are you smiling? You have nothing to be happy about. And then we all burst out laughing, and it's like, you're right. There's nothing good going on. And it's it was basically that repeated year after year. Nothing to look forward to. Yeah. Kind of just do what you're told or something bad will happen.

SPEAKER_01

You know what? I still have problems with Sunday night. Because it was kind of that way. Like, Sunday night was the one time we had a break. Like after we usually did something, like we went on a little walk outside or something like that, and we'd have a little break, but it was like the only break, and so I kind of hated it because I knew that like okay, we're about to go into next week, and I was just like, and so even to this day, Sunday night I'm I just feel like I gotta go do some because I don't like that feeling. I still have that feeling on Sunday night.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, like Saturday, if we if we happen to come home on a Saturday, then we'd I just try to try to stay up all night, just doing things I want to do, like playing games or um just talking with uh some of my other brothers that maybe I didn't see through through that week.

SPEAKER_01

You close with some of your brothers?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. And are they just as shy as far as or I shouldn't say still, but were they just a shy?

SPEAKER_02

Um, yeah, some more, some less. So yeah, they're yeah, there's some that are having it harder than me and are older than me. Okay. But and are still part of the group. Still single.

SPEAKER_01

Still single? Yeah. Okay. They're still they're some some of Daniel's kids. Yeah. That are sh your age, so they must have been shyer than you, because they also probably didn't dare go to the dance.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

They would just sit off in the corner or not even go.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Doesn't it feel kind of tough to be sitting off in the corner and not going to the dance?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And it's like for a lot of them it's getting worse because when I when I was younger, at least the girls were my age. Because I got married at 21, so. And yeah, I was dancing with girls that were my age or a year or two younger. But now, if you're going and you're over 35, the only ones available are just little girls. And that's also something that they struggle with because they don't want to feel like a predator.

SPEAKER_01

They should uh leave. Yeah. Yeah, they definitely should. That's that's called getting scammed right there. To live in a society where every one of the like all the women are taken. Now the only ones are the youngest ones, so yeah, if you take one, you're gonna like look be looked on as a predator. Yeah. Yeah, that's tough. That that's that's a scam. Yeah. Okay, you gotta tell me how how did you meet this girl that then? If if you were so shy, yeah, how did you how did you get married?

SPEAKER_02

Um, I just pushed myself to just start dancing. My like I wanted to get a new computer, and so my mom said the only way that I would be able to get a new computer is if I went to the dance and I danced every song. And so I d I just prioritized the computer. That's a smart mom. Yeah. After that, like I didn't I didn't like not being able to approach people, especially in a group like that where we're told you need to get married. Like it it's drilled in you every single like at least every single Sunday. It's like, who are you gonna marry? Like, what are you doing right now to to get that figured out? And so I just push myself to just try to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Yeah, it was the dances that I met her.

SPEAKER_01

Nice. I feel like your mother's responsible for this.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

How was your relationship with your mom growing up?

SPEAKER_02

It was good. Um she's definitely uh like the smartest of my mom, I guess my dad's wives. Um and she she realized uh a while before she passed that she couldn't survive on what she was getting working for my dad. So she decided to kind of break off and um make her make money her own way. And it got to a point where my I guess my mom would say say that, say to my dad that I would work for you, but you can't afford me. Yeah. So she Yeah, she did end up prioritizing her kids over I think her relationship. Yeah. Which obviously in that case is it was a better decision.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. As a as a as a boy and since you have grown up more to what degree do you feel like you feel in your body? Are you are you living outside of your body to some degree, even to even still? Or do you like feel things down through your heart, through your body? Do you listen to your body? Do you listen to your heart? Or do you mostly live in your head thinking about things logically, um not comfortable, like experiencing your body kind of?

SPEAKER_02

Um, I would say there there was for sure moments, like a lot of moments where I was living outside of my body. Um at this time, no. Um and I guess it kind of I like to think about why uh things are the way they are, and uh I guess the question of do you believe in God? Um one of the questions I asked myself was is God or was God created by man because man needed a God? And it's a it's a real possibility.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Um but the I I'm just curious if you like feel things in your body very w when's the last time that you really felt something deeply like in your in your chest, like you know, you you were sad about something or um like if it's too personal, you don't have to tell me, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Uh I would say st still pretty common. Like there's topics that will I guess uh come and go in my my brain and yeah, it can affect like the my r the rest of my day uh in a positive or a bad way. Um I I definitely like it like kind of a switch where you just turn off emotion and you just operate. I I I definitely don't have that switch turned off. I like to at the same time think of things logically, but also appreciate life where I can because um I want to make sure I live a happy life. Like I I do believe that by the time I pass, then I will have lived a happier life than my dad did.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's good. So I'm excited to hear this story about you meeting this girl. So your mom tells you you don't get a computer until you go to the dances. Yeah. And this leads to meeting a girl. Well, why don't you tell me this story?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So um yeah it it wasn't like any one particular dance, it kind of um like you like you go to a dance, you d if you're dancing with a lot of girls, you kind of have a rotation of girls that you do enjoy dancing with. Um, so yeah, I guess she was in kind of that rotation. And it's a swing dance. Um, more like waltz. Okay. Yeah. It it's like a made-up waltz, it's not real waltz, but um I I guess there was one night before a dance, then my mom went up to me and said that she had direction that I should know who I who it is I'm supposed to marry by the the end of the dance, or the end of the night.

SPEAKER_01

And so Well then, so your mom came up to you and said you should know who you're supposed to marry from these girls that you're dancing with.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Okay. And direction can be um a dream, it can be a feeling, it can be whatever you really want it to be.

SPEAKER_01

So it's some sort of revelation from God that you should know by the end of the night.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and just went to the dance and danced, um, and then yeah, by the end of the night, th they closed with prayer, and I was just thinking, okay. Um, so if there is anyone, it's this one. And so I guess that was my direction to then go forward um to my parents and then the to the leader, and then to her parents, and then eventually to her.

SPEAKER_01

Do you feel like your mom was sincere in that she felt like she had got revelation or was she strategizing how to get you a uh wife?

SPEAKER_02

It's hard to say. Cause it I I can see it as being both. Cause like reflecting on things I've seen uh in my my mom's life then. It I know she had that struggle of believing the order and not believing it. So I think it it probably was direction. I don't know if it was a dream or she just wanted to get me married.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So tell me the story after that. Like, now you have this girl who you feel like you're supposed to marry. Yeah. And your mom's kind of pushed you to the dances. So you're kind of lucky that you got pushed to the dances at that age, right? Yeah, yep. Yeah, good.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so basically the process was um I then went to my mom and dad to tell them my direction. And then I I ask, is it okay for me to go to the leader to to pursue this? And they they say yeah. And so, yeah, I went to Paul and yeah, he said, okay, yeah, it's okay to go to the dad. And then I went to the dad. Um, he had some ideas on who he wanted her to marry, and I wasn't one of them. So he kind of delayed that. But luckily, uh, more for me, she also wanted to get married to me, so she pushed it on her side. So, and without that, then it wouldn't have happened. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So she had a crush on you too. Yeah, yep. Nice.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that definitely makes it easier.

SPEAKER_01

Well, it feels good to be wanted. Yeah. Okay, so what tell me about your first date? Like, you get you get permission from her father, she kind of pushing it, yeah. Your father's good with it, and then you get to go on a date, right? Yeah, tell me about this date.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, um, so the date I showed up late because I didn't know how to get to her house. And Google Maps wasn't out at that time. It but yeah, I got there and um we went to uh like an arcade place, played some games. Wait, what year was this? Um 2012, I think, or 2011.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Actually probably probably 2011.

SPEAKER_01

And did she forgive you for being late? Yeah. It's easier to forgive somebody if they're like in the Kingston group. For if they're being late, you know, there's probably a real cause.

SPEAKER_02

And it's like a lot of us are just late all the time. Really? Yeah, it's pretty common. But yeah, um, went we had our date and I told her um the direction I had, and I didn't know, but um I guess she was waiting for me to like get on my knees and ask her to marry me.

SPEAKER_01

Cause in the Kingstons you're supposed to propose on the first date.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, but nobody told me that. Oh so she's waiting for that, and she had other dates with people that they did that, and she's just wondering why I didn't. And I in my mind I was thinking that was a good date. And I had no idea that that was uh an expectation. No like I didn't had no idea. So I if I did I w obviously would have, but yeah, 'cause at that point then yeah, we've gotten to know each other. I guess. As best you can at a dance.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Okay, so you don't propose, but she's wondering what's wrong. Yeah. I I think that was that was probably a good move on your part. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You probably made it happen in the end. Yeah. Yeah, in the end. Then she yeah, she had a fight with her dad and even Paul to um basically allow her to marry me. And meanwhile, I'm just shaking like the her dad's hand, saying hi, trying to be nice.

SPEAKER_01

Tell me all the details. Yeah. So sh you drop her off and then it goes quiet for a while, or? Yeah, it goes quiet for quite a while. Your dad her dad doesn't like you.

SPEAKER_02

No. Okay. Well, I I think it's mainly that he would have rather her married someone else that would um kind of give him more access to more resources. Oh, okay. So more for financial benefits. Got it. He wanted her.

SPEAKER_01

That's my speculation, yeah. Marry higher in the hierarchy. Yeah. Okay. Yep. So we got some forbidden love happening.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. But I followed all the rules, so they can't really be mad at me.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, tell me more. Um about this situation. What what what brings you guys together? What how do you end up getting married?

SPEAKER_02

So, yeah, after fighting, or I guess a lot of fighting on her side, and it's like, and that's um that that's what made our situation really unique, is that she was fighting on her side to be able to marry me, where that's really rare. Like, I don't know of another case where that was a situation. Usually it's the girl will just have to marry whoever the dad wants, and they'll they'll just cry on their wedding day and just try to make the best of it. But yeah, eventually then um she's she got permission from the leader to say, yeah, that that we can get married. And then yeah, we had a um engagement night where I guess we all met up at the park. Um they they do like yes moments where the girl like will kind of present herself saying. Did you ever propose? No. I mean, I I did at that that yes moment.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, you did? You finally proposed then? Yeah. So you did it the normal way where you ask and then they say yes right there. Yeah. Nice. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, we got engaged. Did you get a ring? Yeah, I did. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And then How did you choose what ring to get?

SPEAKER_02

Um, I just went to a jewelry store and just did my best. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

These aren't important details in the Kingstons, but they are in the general world, so I'm asking.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

No, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, no, we had um like a three-week engagement, and then um So was who was there? Her father, your father, Paul? Yeah. Yeah, and then just family on both sides. And then we just have a reception. The reception's usually bigger because it's after a wedding and it's more of the like they have a program where people will sing and do like a funny song or s funny skit. And then um there there's a dance, so yeah, people like to attend the dances. There would be one. Like this time of year, there's at least one every weekend. So tons of dances.

SPEAKER_01

So you kind of just skipped over the part where you got married.

SPEAKER_02

Was that pretty normal or uh yeah, it's pretty normal. You get engaged. Um it was a quick engagement, three weeks. So uh it was a lot of stuff happening in those three weeks, but in that community they have everything set up so it can be quick. Like, they already have wedding planners, um, I already have a place to to have the wedding, we already know who's going.

SPEAKER_01

How much did your wedding cost?

SPEAKER_02

I don't even know. Probably around um maybe like four thousand.

SPEAKER_01

Did you pay for it or uh both. Both of you paid for it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And what have you been doing for work to afford um so that's one thing that's also interesting. A lot of our wait, like wait, when you have an order job, then they have their own currency. They say it's uh one-for-one equivalent of a dollar. Um so you kind of just build up your the currency you have in the order, and then when you need it, then you can just request it in in a cash form. Or if it's paid to people that are also in the group, then no cash has to exchange at all. It's just their own currency.

SPEAKER_01

Basically their own bank.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, it's it's more than a bank, like um, it's like a like a crypto coin.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. It's basically where I like a dad says to his son, you earn this much money, and then both of his sons are trying to exchange things, so in his mind he just says, Okay, now I owe you this much and you this much instead of. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Kind of like I owe you.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Yeah. And so what job are you doing to to earn money for this? Um like how much were you getting an hour?

SPEAKER_02

I don't know. Because like they would a lot of the jobs then they would tell us we're we're getting like maybe twelve dollars, but after working maybe forty or sixty hours, then they realize they don't want to pay that much, so they'll adjust our hours to something that um is more reasonable in their eyes, like to be able to pay us less. Um, but yeah, some of the jobs were uh an auto mechanic. Um I worked at a uh like a still place where you uh still fabrication. And then yeah, up at the farm. Um let's see. Oh yeah, and I guess um we have uh a rental company for WaveRunners. And I was working with with that company for a few years, but it's like it's a seasonal one, it's only during the summer.

SPEAKER_01

It's quite a realization to know that you need to pay somebody a little bit less. I have that realization in my business sometimes. Like, oh my god. Yeah, I need to pay that person a little bit less. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I never do it. Yeah, what when working up at the farm then, um the mom that was up there, a lot of her a lot of uh Daniel's kids didn't like her at all. But one of her ideas was you should be paying us because this is like uh a camp.

SPEAKER_01

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02

Like a like a summer camp that we should be paying them to be forced to go work up there.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so you get married. Yeah. And how's married life? It's good. Um Is it awkward?

SPEAKER_02

It's well it it's uh it has its struggles, especially when you're a part of the group, because now when you have a wife and your first kid, you start realizing that you need to be able to provide for these people. And what like maybe what I'm doing isn't giving me the resources to feed my family, and it's a struggle because you're doing what you're told to do, but it doesn't pay the bills.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, but I want to know I I understand that, and but I want to know like the cup the right after you guys got married, because you really hardly knew each other. You really hardly knew each other. Like, how awkward was it getting to know each other? Like, how were the days after? Did you guys move in the house and were were you just like sitting on both ends of the couch? Were you snuggling up to each other? Like, like how awkward was it?

SPEAKER_02

Um I kind of just let her in, so yeah, we were cuddling on the couch. Um uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You're kind of just like this new couple.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Kind of.

SPEAKER_02

Like yeah, the typical honeymoon phase. Okay. So, no, it like I there are some uh stories of uh some couples will get married and they don't know how to procreate. So we didn't have that issue, but yeah, it was funny to hear about those.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I was just asking because a lot of couples in the FLDS are that way. They they don't know what to do after they get married because they didn't know each other. Then they get married and then they're both just together, and it's just like, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, and it's like we were a little bit older, I was twenty one and she was nineteen about turning yeah, she was nineteen, turning twenty that year. So it's a lot different when you have those extra years than like sixteen. Yeah. Sixteen and seventeen.

SPEAKER_01

Alright. What would you say kind of the next turning event in your life is, or is it kind of this realizing that you don't have enough money to take care of your family?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, one thing that is that was really common in our group, and like I wonder if the FLDS has these issues as well, is um so at like you get older you kind of see things that the like the group's doing, and y in your brain, because you have the ability to think, you you start thinking that maybe this isn't a good way to go about things. And like we would have people in church, they would say when you have those issues or you have those thoughts come up in your your head, what you do is you you put it in a box and you put it on a shelf. And it'll get resolved later. Um at that time I had a ton of oxes. And I think it's just obviously it's just a like a manipulation tactic. And um we would have uh I think what would happen is these like things get introduced, a lot of people have these same ideas, but they get them, put them in a box and put them on the shelf, and then when a lot of people have them, then maybe Paul or someone will get up in front of church and kind of they know that this is the issue a lot of people will have, and they will come up with something to resolve it in a way that benefits the church. And then people will say, Oh man, I really like that meeting today. It's it's like he was talking to me, and it's like, well, he was talking to a lot of people, a lot of people had those same issues, and so that that's one of the benefits of just putting in a box and putting it on a shelf because eventually if enough people have those same um like I guess ideas, then they will eventually get addressed, but addressed in a way that will manipulate them to tie in closer with the church.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I would say that's very common in all Mormon sects, including the Mormon Church, they have a a level of that. The FLDS definitely has that, so yeah. But yeah, um so you were kind of starting to ask questions about what the leadership was doing and stuff. Yeah. Okay, I I read in your book uh about your sister Rachel dying. Yeah. I can say her name.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Well can you take can you kind of tell us what happened there?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so I'll try to not make it too long, but um I would say it started with uh my mom, she was diagnosed with cancer. And she at that time, then the doctors wanted her to go take like a treatment, and they from what I remember then, they said take this treatment and you have a high success chance of living. But Daniel decided we're not gonna do that. Um we're we're we're just going to do this random treatment that um that he found on YouTube. Like he just went on YouTube, just did a bunch of his own research and decided we're gonna do um cancer treatment this way. And yeah. So what that caused was Daniel was at our house a lot more. We didn't like that. Like growing up, we that was one thing nice about being in a polygamous family when you have an abusive dad, is they're not there every single night, so you get a break from them. But because he was there, then he was having um he he didn't like how my sister was rebelling a little bit. And it's like her rebelling wasn't really that big of an issue, it was more of um you know how you got those personalities that kind of clash with authority.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It's kind of that, like she's not really doing bad things. This is Rachel. Yeah. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01

So she has this personality that just clashes with authority and that that's yeah, Daniel.

SPEAKER_02

And it's like, I don't know what you can expect from a 13, 14-year-old girl. That it's just gonna happen. But basically, so in that process, my mom was going through that, and then um a few months progress, and uh she goes back to the doctor, the doctor says, You should have taken this um, you should have taken this route for treatment because now it's too late. Uh you're only gonna have like four months left, or three or four months. At that time, then Daniel's lying to us, saying, She's getting better, what we're doing is working. And so we we believed it. Um that that yeah, she was really getting better. And so we just went along, and this this treatment would involve starving my mom, uh forcing her on some weird diets of like uh like a bunch a bunch of juiced fruit and wheatgrass and oh boy.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, not yummy stuff.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, and there was even moments where she was throwing up um blood and the response was she's throwing up the cancer. It's like, no, she's dying.

SPEAKER_01

Oh man.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and the at the same time, because Daniel's more around and they're clashing, or I guess he's clashing with my younger sister Rachel.

SPEAKER_01

What why why are they clashing? Over your mom or just in general?

SPEAKER_02

Um with over my mom, over like just questioning why do we do things the way we do it, kind of things. And Dino's response is we do it because I say. And when you have like those don't go well together.

SPEAKER_01

But okay, so your mom, does she want to get the official treatment for this initially, or um I think she did, but I don't know what happened behind closed doors.

SPEAKER_02

Um, I believe my dad really bullied her and pressured her into taking his treatment. And I I I think that's what happened. And so she went along with it, and then things changed when she found out that yeah, it's too late now, you're gonna definitely gonna die. Um she started doing things behind my dad's back, like she changed her will. She had a million-dollar insurance policy where she had before the beneficiary be the church, but she changed it to just her kids and her sister. And my my dad had no idea until after she passed that she did this. But she just went along with it. She didn't I think she just didn't want there to be more drama than there needed to be, so she just complied with whatever I get. That's insane.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's kind of too well it's uh it's sad, you know. Yeah. I I totally understand that. I've seen it too. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, at the same time, all of us believe, like at not all of us, I I I I should say a lot of us, me me especially though, believed that 100% she was getting better. Okay. So yeah, the clashing's going on with my dad and Rachel, and she calls the cops, she tries to run away, and says the whole everything that's going on. Uh my dad is Daniel, he's abusing me, he's doing all these things, and I need to get out of this home. But being in Utah, and I typically when a per a kid goes to the cops and says that there's um like a DCFS case that's opened. I don't know of one that would get open on that.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so she actually does run away from the house, and she says, I'm being abused, and my mom's dying, and whatever else.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Okay. And the cops just get her and bring her back to her abuser.

SPEAKER_01

And so And you would consider that Daniel. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02

And I can only say what I would imagine was going through her head was there was no escaping. She went through the proper channels to try and better the situation, but um like even like I I felt her, the police felt her, her family felt her, her parents felt her. And she got this idea in her brain that um well maybe if she dies she can sacrifice herself so my mom would live. And so yeah. And yeah, at that time she her attitude changed. She was a lot happier because she I think it was because she found a solution of how to get out of this bad situation. But and also at that time my dad pulled her out of my mom's house and put her in my brother's home because he couldn't stand being with her in the same house, and my dad was always at my mom's house during that time. And yeah, she got the idea that if she did that, then my mom would live on. But so yeah, uh, I guess one morning, I guess the night before, she prepared things and got letters ready and uh decided to go in my brother's garage and take her own life. It was frustrating because at that time, I I guess yeah, she took her life, and I remember that morning because um I was at my mom's house, and Daniel like got a lot of the brothers and brought us down to the basement and say, How am I gonna break this to your mom that Rachel just killed herself? And we didn't know but yeah. So yeah, he went upstairs and told her at that time my mom just gave up on everything. And yeah, she passed away a couple months later. And like Daniel's response to his kid committing suicide was that more hatred. He didn't even want to have a funeral because how mad he was at her. But he decided to that we're we'll go ahead and have a funeral for mom. And yeah, a lot of like because Daniel is expressing this to not just my mom's kids, but to his whole family, then it kind of twists the thoughts of all the other siblings into also hating Rachel, blaming Rachel. But like you don't blame a kid, you blame the people that were in charge of her. But yeah, like yeah, a lot of people saying they're having nightmares, they believe her belongings were cursed, and they wanted to like get rid of everything that she ever owned. And pretty sure they got rid of most things. But yeah, that's about how that went.

SPEAKER_01

Dang. Yeah. Oh my god. That's fucking crazy.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So she pretty much went to the cops, the cops wouldn't help her. Then she kind of cheers up because she knows she's found a path. She's found a path. God, God, I know how that is. That's insane, you know?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's really sad. That's really fucking sad. I can't believe. Can't believe that happened. And then that shows the level of emotional disconnection of everybody there to be like we need to get rid of her stuff. She was cursed. Like, like, that's insane. That's insane lack of personal connection with yourself to understand what someone else is going through. That's fucking insane.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, they in the group they teach us hold the people above you 100% innocent in everything they do. Yeah. So he what happens in with that is he doesn't take any ownership of any of the bad things he did. He doesn't blame himself for anything bad he actually does. Which is it's I I think it can stunt progress in a person to not be held accountable for anything bad that they do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

How did you feel when Rachel passed away?

SPEAKER_02

Um I yeah, I I put the blame on my dad because that's where it needed to be. I wanted him to go to jail. Um at that time I had two kids. Um but yeah, no. I felt part like partial, I guess it was also my fault because um I should have done more. But I would say the one that was most at fault is the one that holds themselves the most innocent, my dad.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Yeah, that's just insane to me. I think the the saddest part is just the detail about her just becoming more happy and and realizing, you know, that that is just insane, but that is the uh path of life and death. It's like we fear things, we don't appreciate them, we can't handle them, our body won't accept them, certain really hard things, especially when it comes to death, until we see no other way. It's it's the similar thing that somebody maybe that goes through cancer, any life cycle, really. You live, you live, you live until the moment you realize you can't anymore, and then you accept it, you become happier in that moment, and it's just really sad that it it was that that made her become happier, and you know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, I just appreciate adding that detail because I just want people to understand like what she was going through. Or the in her mind the only the the the cycle of life and death had had occurred in her mind. That's what cheered her up in those final days. And so the the acceptance of death kind of that's crazy. Okay. Um well, tell me a little bit more about your mom passing away after. Yeah. So your dad is struggling to break this news to her. How does he do it? And what's kind of the result?

SPEAKER_02

Um, yeah, so we came up from downstairs and he broke the news to her, and yeah, she just fell apart. Like she's already deathly ill, and now she has to um also bury her own kid before she passes in. Yeah, at that point she she gave up, but I think that uh she just wanted to to pass on. But yeah, it yeah, it was uh a few months later, then yeah, she passed on and we handled that, and like what you were saying earlier, um living outside of your body, yeah, I would say then at that point I was definitely living outside of my body. But luckily for me, then I had a wife and kids, and I remember just turning to them, questioning myself, like how how am I gonna get past this?

SPEAKER_01

You pull that mic a little closer.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah, just uh it wasn't and it was at my mom's funerologist wondering how am I gonna get past this, but luckily with having um responsibilities of being a father, then I just looked to my boys and said that um sometimes life sucks. And that's just how it is that I have to get through this. But yeah, I definitely have always held my dad responsible for for that for both of their deaths.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, you you said he didn't want to have a funeral. Yeah. So why why didn't he want to have a funeral? Was he clashing with Rachel that bad? He just wanted to bury her?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, he just wanted to bury her. Uh typically in the group, if someone passes away, especially like um someone like a a student at the school, then they'll close school and everyone will attend the funeral and there'll be like this big um uh funeral event, but he didn't want to do that because um he says he he convinced himself that that would only encourage more kids to take their own life. And what she did was completely unacceptable, and only Rachel can could have prevented that, is what Daniel was telling us. And he told us, if you're gonna take your life, I don't even like kind kinda like don't even warn me because I won't even I won't even try to stop ya. That's what he told us.

SPEAKER_01

But that's insane. Yeah, I can't believe that all just slid. Like, he needs to die. He needs punished, you know. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I I look at like obviously growing up in the group and watching him, I realize he's not a happy guy. He's already miserable. He like like what I was saying earlier that I'll live a happier life. It's like it won't even be by comparison. I I don't see him enjoying his life at all. He's just so hateful and so mad all the time.

SPEAKER_01

Was there a police investigation?

SPEAKER_02

Not that I know of.

SPEAKER_01

That they came, right?

SPEAKER_02

They came, they saw, and um later on, a few years later, then um there was a cop that had an interaction with my wife, and he he said that he he remembers the case and he knew that they were bringing this girl back to her abuser, but they were following orders. But yeah, I don't know of any uh DCFS case that got opened up. And maybe there was, but I don't think so. Yeah. Yeah. He's he's protected. For some reason the order uh order people, especially the leaders, are protected by the people in government.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, that's that's part of playing the political game, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well it's like I thought about it because that was one of the questions I had, is why is this allowed? And then I kind of pictured myself, well, if I was in Paul's shoes and I had an extra million dollars, why would it be unrealistic to try and bribe people in political positions to protect myself? Yep. So I can see how in his mind he can probably see it as um it would be dumb of him to not do it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, they definitely have something going on there.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. When do you start thinking about leaving the order?

SPEAKER_02

Um, honestly, I've always thought about it, but one thing that I came to realize was, and it's just what I believe, I think it's easier to control people when they're in a survival state. Like they're just trying to survive, they can't handle another bad thing happening, so they're just going to put their head down, try to survive and ignore the bad. One thing that my brother said is one of the best things about the order is you don't even have to think. You just do what you're told. So and yeah, I think I can see that being a lot easier if you just turn your brain off and stop thinking. But yeah, I I would say uh eventually um during the COVID shutdown, everyone, like including myself, we got put out of work. And I started watching this YouTube channel, and like it was a guy exposing um colts and scams, and I was just watching it thinking, man, why are these people falling for this? This is obviously a scam. Yeah, and and it's like, well, it during COVID and it was kind of like a a snowstorm but frozen in time. I was able to look around me and see what was going on. Then I was like, dang it, I think I'm in a scam. And ever since then, then I I knew that I I couldn't continue being part of the group.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Do you feel like that when your mom died and Rachel that whole deal with Rachel and all that stuff kind of helped you realize that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And it it for sure helped. When my mom passed, I I like to uh look at it as my mom's role was to put the sheet over the monster, and when she passed, then the monster was revealed, and the monster was my dad. So Okay. And it's like once you start seeing things, you can't unsee it. One of them was I was talking with some of my brothers, and we made a resemblance of Daniel and Satan, because Satan's plan was to, uh, like we were taught in the group that Satan's plan was to take all the glory for himself, and he will be like this great being. And then we just replace Satan with my dad, and it's like, wow, it's a it's identical. And it once you have some of these realizations, you can't see it any other way, and then yeah, yeah, I would say since then we just started getting our things um situated to to leave. I don't know how much money we left in the group, but we just we had our own bank accounts that we were using more, and then uh uh we just packed up our family and left.

SPEAKER_01

You and your wife? Yeah. Okay. How was your wife's journey along that leaving?

SPEAKER_02

Was she totally on board or yeah, she was definitely ready before I was. Yeah. I think she was ready um when we got married because she didn't like her living situation. But she already worked at the office and actually worked close with Paul. And I think that's one thing that's interesting is when you are closer to the inner circles of the group and how it operates, you're exposed more to it, like good or bad. And yeah, she worked really close with Paul. And she only saw corruption in a lot of the things he was doing.

unknown

Excuse me.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So it is interesting that a lot of women there in the group, they see through it faster and they're ready to leave sooner. They leave sooner. Do you think it's because one, they don't really have any benefit of staying? And two, why why do they I guess men have the priest and they have authority, right? So even if their circumstances aren't good, they have an illusion that things might be worth staying. Yeah. I feel I wonder if women leave sooner because they don't have any benefit and they're kind of at the bottom already. Is that why they leave sooner? Or what's your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02

I think that yeah, girls do leave sooner because they're like it obviously it's har it would be harder for a girl to like share a partner, um, and just not wanting to live the lives that their that their mom is living. But when it comes to the guys, then um maybe it doesn't sound too bad to like have a bunch of wives and have a bunch of kids because I I think it's part of our biology that we want to have kids, but and like we don't have that um we wouldn't be sharing our our partner, so it that part is easier for the guys. But I would say for the guys, it would it it is hard to provide for a family when yeah, you you don't get enough resources to provide for them. And then also to push your kids into marrying, into families for um maybe resources, access to more resources. Like uh one thing I told myself was I would rather live a life in poverty and have my kids marry who they want to than to traffic one of them for any amount of money in the world. And like I say that knowing that I have siblings that are trafficking their kids to marrying their uncles or other people in the group to get access to more resources and it's n it's not worth it. It's it's like it's access to more resources, but they don't ever really own it, if that makes sense, because everything we own is supposed to be turned into the church, which means that it can be taken away.

SPEAKER_01

Well, it's a good man. Don't rather be poorer than you know give up your kids. And the whole system is messed up because a lot of those men in there, they know that if they give one of their girls, get them married over in this place, that'll give them more connections and resources and stuff. But they also justify it in the sense that oh, God wants them to marry here. God wants them, you know, that's that's their justification.

SPEAKER_02

Right? I I think that's their justification that they tell themselves and to other people, but um I don't think it's the reality of how they feel. Really? I don't think so. Like okay. And like I I say that that statement, um like rather living a life in poverty because I believe I like I would be happier because I I couldn't do that to my kid. Um to traffic them or live in poverty.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, that's admirable to me. Uh did you ever consider or look at or try courting another wife? Because it was very it was very normal. It was probably even uh somewhat w like you should try to have two wives, maybe.

SPEAKER_02

So what so yeah, when I was approached with that uh situation, then I I knew that it would make it harder for my current family to survive because it it's more resources I would have to gather. I knew it would hurt my wife's feelings to share me with someone else. Um but I did get pressure. My mom was pressuring me before she passed that she would go to me and say, It's time for you to start looking for another wife. And I would have different people even after my mom passed, and even before, like right before I left, my sister called me up and say and told me that she knows who my next wife is supposed to be. But like she wasn't gonna tell me. It was kind of just to pull me back into the group. But I looked at my parents and looked at what it would take for me to to do that, and I I I just saw my life getting worse if I went down that route.

SPEAKER_01

So you never really tried because you could just see it was it was not an ideal path?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I I didn't. It was more trouble than it's worth.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Okay. Alright. So your wife's ready to leave pretty early on. Is she kind of the one that pushes you to see more things and to kind of leave, or what what makes so that you're able to kind of see it?

SPEAKER_02

Um, honestly, I've always seen it. Uh, even before I got married, there was a time where I was working for my dad, and like the job I was doing required me to to buy equipment and like a truck and stuff. And after um, I guess I I was working for him and I lost money working for him. And so I uh there was a I I left the group, but then I came right back like a day or two later because my mom was blowing up my phone and I missed my mom and but and and I think that's really how it is for almost everyone in the order. I don't believe that they actually believe in the group or like the teachings. I I think they all have things on their shelf and they're just not addressing them because maybe they're in survival mode and they can't handle one more bad thing happening. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So you and your wife decide to leave. And you just pack up and and move to a rent rent a house and move move or?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah, we rented a place in Draper. Uh it was actually with the help of Holding Out Help. Oh, okay. Yeah, they helped us um with furniture and even part of the rent. And then Yeah, it was a bit of work to get like everything separated. But like slowly over time then How much money did you leave in the order? I don't even know. Because they don't have accounting systems that gives at least at that time, that gives people real numbers. They'll they'll put it in an account and then that'll get pulled into a different account and you don't have access. And I I think a lot of it's just a lot of poor accounting on their side. Like I I I remember my mom going to the office or the order bank and saying that she's missing $30,000, and then she has to show them it's like, no, I really am missing this money. And I I think eventually she got it, but really bad accounting there, like on top of everything else they have going on.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Okay. Um what is your process after you leave of becoming more connected to yourself? Or do you still feel like you're working on it?

SPEAKER_02

Um, yeah, there's definitely things I'm still working on because like I especially being a father to young children, then what was normal to me growing up isn't a good path, if that makes sense. Um like what so I I guess an example would be um so I was getting the kids ready for school, uh, my little girl sitting on the bed throwing a tantrum like kids do, and then in my mind, what was normal for me to see was my dad beating up my sister or beating up another sibling. And I like I just think that is not that's that's not how we're how we do things. And it's like you you probably won't experience it until you have kids, but you can imagine um being a child trying to get rushed out the door. Um the kind of the frustration a parent has um of just get ready and we gotta go. We don't we don't have all day. But yeah, I took a uh like it was I kinda just uh frozen that time and um looked at her. I knew the path I obviously didn't want to go down, and uh I thought, you know what, she does she's kinda cute, so I just gave her a hug and told her that she's gonna have a good day. And yeah, she got up, got ready, and um it was I guess a good outcome. But it's uh it's like a thousand little things like that trying to rewire what is normal in your like in my brain to do what I think is best for for them and for me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Did we skip over anything important in your life that you felt like we needed to talk about or that you came today, like, oh, I really need to tell this to the audience. Did we skip over anything important in your story or?

SPEAKER_02

Um I don't think so. Or not that I can think of at this time. I mean I guess yeah, the process of leaving is definitely hard. Like it definitely feels like it gets worse before it gets better. But it's definitely worth it. Um luckily today then there are more resources out there to help with that. And like I I would tell people like definitely get those boxes off your shelf and start unboxing them of like the issues that you might have in the group or in other things and try to find out answers to those questions because they're they're good questions.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Yeah, and just so everybody knows, uh, Andrew has this book. Well tell people where they can find this book.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, um, so the title of it, Escaping the Kingdom of God. Uh I kind of went with that title just because um that's what we were taught in the order that this that the order was the kingdom of God and we were there to build it. So it's kind of just like a mind thing. You got you gotta escape that that mind. Yeah. Um and yeah, you can find it on Amazon. Um, it's easy to and and audible. Um so it's very easily very very easy to get. But yeah, I wanted it that way just to kind of get it out there and um it it kind of use it as a form of therapy. Uh I I think whatever you can use as therapy is good, but there's not one type that works for everyone.

SPEAKER_01

One thing I noticed, sorry, just one second. I felt like in the book you really skipped over. I was listen I was actually listening to it on Audible before you got here. I felt like you really skipped over Rachel fast. Like, it I I felt like I hardly knew the story. It was Yeah, it was like it it was barely a memory in your mind type of a deal. And that's one of the reasons I was asking you, like, are you emotionally connected to things? Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and a lot of the details that I even went over today was like the first time I went over it, like been been able to say it out loud or something like that. But it's because it was uh very traumatic. Like it was one of those experiences where we at least I was like really living outside of my body and just kind of watching it, like watching my life as if I was watching a really sad movie. But yeah, it's just time to learn how to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01

Have you dealt with anything since you left, like any kind of uh problems that you needed to like you get help on s psychologically or you know, or ever do you feel like you've been pretty stable, kind of?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I feel like I've been pretty stable. I tried some therapy sessions. I feel like for me, um what kind of works is just and like obviously I don't think it would work for a lot of people, is kind of just sitting down with my thoughts. I I kind of I I like to think of it as sitting in kind of a a a swamp full of uh like like these big um vines that are tangled up and um kind of just unwiring the mess in my brain kind of thing. And then also um visualizing uh problems as like as like maybe a monster. Like I don't know if you watch scary shows, you see when they see something scary, they a lot of people will turn away and try not to see it. But I like to think of it as just kind of sitting in the moment and staring at this monster, trying to understand it and why it is the way it is.

SPEAKER_01

So I don't know if it's healthy, but yeah, well, I agree that doing that is a really good thing. Like sitting with your own thoughts, thinking about things, staring your fears straight on, looking at them and not trying to run away from them, that's a good start. Um, but I wanted to ask, like, if you've been to therapy sessions a couple times, what is is it almost like you can't make progress there? You can't go to the depth of thought that you otherwise would. Like, why doesn't it work?

SPEAKER_02

Um I feel like it would be talking or I would be talking to a person that is from another country that's trying I'm trying to can like explain to them how things are in this world, and I don't think that they can really grasp the the issues to learn how to help me with them. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think that one of the reasons therapy doesn't work for a lot of men is because we go in to talk to a therapist and there's no can real deep connection with ourselves. And so when we talk to them, it's just like, well, I'm I'm good, what the fuck is your problem? You know, that's pretty much men's approach to therapy. I'm good, what the fuck is your problem? You know, and it is very difficult, like a lot of them just aren't good, they they can't see through it, and so I I totally get what you're saying when it comes to therapy.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, when it when I like meet up with my brothers and we talk about things that like bad things that happened in the past, we kind of just laugh about it. Yeah. Kind of attitude. It's like, man, yeah, things were really messed up. And yeah, kind of just make a joke about trauma.

SPEAKER_01

That's what that's what I do with my brothers and a lot of my sisters even would just kind of laugh, and you know, some of them are still downliving polygamy and everything, and it's just like, what can you do besides just laugh and be like, alright.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, like some of the um encounters of my dad um abusing some of my siblings. We probably shouldn't laugh about it, but there are some stories that are I mean, there's some funny parts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I think when everything's kind of sad, then might as well laugh.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, kind of like when I was up at Wash Key with my brothers and there was nothing to be happy about. We're all just laughing.

SPEAKER_01

It's like, yeah, it's true. Uh do you believe in God?

SPEAKER_02

Um, so yeah, I I don't know, I don't know if I really believe in God. I question was God created by man because man needed God because I can totally see that as one of the most likely answers. Um I do like looking at a version of like uh like a higher uh not really being but a state of I I like to envision it kind of like your future self. Um someone that like a state of something that knows uh like everything you've been through, um what paths can you take to make your life worse or make your life better, and kind of just a state of something that just wants the best for ya. If that makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Well, do you want to say anything to kind of finish up the podcast? Anything you feel like you need to tell your Kingston friends or your dad or your mom or it I mean not your mom, but uh anything you want to say to kind of finish up the podcast, as well as like if you have a social media you want people to know about or maybe tell them where to get your book again?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, um, I'm not really big on social media. Um, but yeah, you can get my book on Amazon if you're interested in it. And as far as what I would uh say to people in the order is unpack those boxes, figure out for yourself why things are the way they are in the order. And one of the most important things is don't lie to yourself about reality. Because I think that's one of the biggest things I was I I stopped believing in the group when I stopped lying to myself.

SPEAKER_01

Don't lie to yourself about reality. Yeah. I would agree. That that was pretty much my problem, too. Yeah. From the day I was born. Yep. Yep. Good advice. Well, I think you're a good man. I'm glad you care more about kids than you know, wealth, personal wealth. And you know, I I think wealth is good, just not not training for kids, you know. That that's sad that that goes on.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So I admire you for leaving and setting a setting an example for you know your brothers and any other men to you know take care, truly take care of people.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah, and I appreciate you having these podcasts to help paint the picture of the reality of these groups. I I I see it as everyone has a puzzle piece to the uh of like example, uh I have just a puzzle piece to what the order is, but without the whole picture, you're not gonna be able to tell what's really going on or what it really is. So the more people that talk about it will help that picture be more defined. So we can all stop lying to ourselves and see it for what it is.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I agree. Every person has a unique story and a unique experience if they'll embrace it and you know, talk about what they went through. No no person's experience is less meaningful than another's. You know, my my story isn't isn't more meaningful than somebody else whose dad isn't wearing jaffs or something, you know. That's how I see it. Like every person is a human, we all go through things and uh we're just all trying to live together and love each other more and get past our bullshit, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Just pr a progress in the the positive direction.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, Andrew, thanks so much for coming. Everybody you should uh buy his book and make sure you leave a nice comment for Andrew below. Thanks so much for coming and we'll see you guys on the next one.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01

All right.

unknown

Yeah.