Episode 66 | I Was Expected to Take Wives—But I Wanted a Husband | Josh Kingston

Ex-Kingston Clan Insider Josh Kingston on The Order: Hiding Wives, Abuse, Queerness & Escaping Polygamy

Follow Josh on tic tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kingstonkaboodle?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc

On the Jaden Jeffs Podcast, Jaden and co-host Amanda Rae interview Josh Kingston, who left the Kingston Clan (“The Order,” DCCS). They discuss the group’s polygamy, incest and underage marriage allegations, financial exploitation of wives, and strict control tactics including forced displays of happiness and corporal punishment. Josh describes realizing he was gay young, repression in the group, and how coming out led to family estrangement and only a few relatives acknowledging his husband. He recounts being sent at 17 to help run families hiding in Colorado to avoid DNA warrants, the harsh living conditions for wives and children, and leaving at 19 with little money after unpaid labor. They cover the group’s schooling, cheating, distrust of medical care, Josh’s mother’s preventable death, and the ongoing impact of trauma, identity, and rebuilding life outside the cult.

01:06 Podcast Introductions
02:08 Kingston Family Ties
04:17 Coming Out In Polygamy
08:55 Hiding From Authorities
13:57 Polygamy Economics
16:45 Abuse And Obedience
23:26 Medical Neglect Stories
28:13 Daily Rituals Explained
30:29 Prayer Rituals and Doubt
31:40 Puberty Without Sex Ed
35:18 Privacy Policing at Home
37:59 Body Shame and Siblings
43:05 Marriage Pressure and Opting Out
45:57 Kids and Fostering Dreams
49:24 Leaving the Order in Colorado
52:38 Cut Off After Coming Out
54:00 Money and Bloodline Status
59:52 Schooling and Cheating Scandal
01:03:31 Education Catch Up
01:03:53 Whitewashed FLDS History
01:05:14 Missing Pop Culture Basics
01:06:07 Rebuilding After Leaving
01:08:04 Spotting Cult Red Flags
01:10:31 Dating After Brainwashing
01:12:19 Finding Your Social Self
01:14:53 Therapy Drugs and Normal
01:17:01 Cult Leaders and Charisma
01:18:50 Family Ties and Judgment
01:22:27 Faith Doubt and Heaven
01:29:57 Death Anxiety and Ghosts
01:34:08 Trump Shooting Conspiracy
01:37:25 Daycare Abuse Coverups
01:38:11 Biodiesel Fraud Fallout
01:39:26 Vanguard School Money Laundering
01:40:45 Cheating and Accountability
01:42:25 Healthy Narcissism Talk
01:44:31 Therapy and Healing
01:46:02 Future of The Order
01:49:08 Polyamory vs Polygamy
01:50:43 Monogamy Betrayal and Consent
01:57:34 Leaving Cult Life Reflections
02:02:16 Recruitment and Mormon History
02:05:47 Shoutouts and Wrap Up

👇**SHOP MERCH HERE FROM JADEN**

fromjaden.com

👇 **FOLLOW + SUPPORT THE PODCAST**

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3GHUWDyJ5ZJ0QzVu8EihBH?si=hpDUxgqMR9CIkwei0Ghiew

🎧 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-jaden-jeffs-podcast/id1795576157

✉️ Newsletter (Substack): https://jadenjeffs.substack.com/

👇 **MY Website**

JadenJeffs.com

👇 **SOCIALS**

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/realjadenjeffs?igsh=cm9ybmY1dzk1dmNp&utm_source=qr

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jadenjeffs100?_r=1&_t=ZP-91rDt1rkLz5

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/1BtYdgFoS5/?mibextid=wwXIfr

👇 **WATCH NEXT**

➡️ Most Popular Videos: https://youtu.be/I-gZtaxMv9w

https://youtu.be/3WIYe15Osts

https://youtu.be/rNKg83fMuN4

➡️ Podcast Playlist: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLk3w3VkHlWzRgsNC_wNeOBxa0AEBnpsCz&si=izu5YMpxghxqO13m

👇 **BUSINESS**

📩 Contact: heyjadenjeffs@gmail.com

Buy me a Coffee via Venmo ❤️ 

https://venmo.com/u/fitoj

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

It is my firm resolve and fixed purpose to give my all to the Lord, my time, my talents, all that I am or ever expected to be. The establishment of the building of the building of the kingdom of God upon the earth. True happiness is not found to do what you want to do, but then you'd like to do the things you ought to do.

SPEAKER_05 0:14

I really appreciate you guys saying that.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Doesn't the presence in your house just feel more fenced?

SPEAKER_04 0:18

Praise the gay way.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Pray the gay away.

SPEAKER_05 0:20

Pray the gay away. Yeah. I feel like if you're in the FLDS, just thinking about being gay is way too big of a sin.

SPEAKER_04 0:29

He would be threatening a child to hit that child and be like, unless you can be happy, smile and be happy. And like she's like crying, he's like, Are you gonna are you not gonna be happy? And like you're gonna run over there and hit her. And so she's like, happy, happy. So it's like shutting everything down and trying to pretend that you're happy. But that's how all of us in the order were.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

He loves me and my husband, and he wants he helps one day we separate and and redeem ourselves and find God and pray for forgiveness or whatever for ever having fallen in love in the first place. Two and two adults loving each other is a mortal sin, apparently.

SPEAKER_04 1:00

So weird. What a weird verb is too. Like, I respect you, I respect your decision to go to hell. No.

SPEAKER_05 1:05

Welcome everybody. This is the Jaden Jeffs Podcast. Today I'm joined by Josh Kingston and I'm the one and only Amanda Ray, who is today our co-host and here to keep the podcast on track. Uh, Josh, if you want to introduce yourself and tell everybody anything you want to say or anything you want everybody to know about you, and then Amanda, if you want to like tell everybody anything you want them to know about you and like set set set us all in order and whatnot.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

So in order. Okay, Josh.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Set us all out of order in this case. Uh yeah, I'm Josh Kingston. I came from the same. Um many of you probably already know Amanda from Colte Cup of Coffee. Came from the same group as she did, the Kingston Clan. Um, they call themselves the Order. Order members, but the media, Fox News calls them Kingston Clan, right? Kingston Clan.

SPEAKER_04 1:58

But their legal name is DCCS, right? Davis County Co-op, Davis County Society.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Go by many names. Scandalous.

SPEAKER_04 2:07

Yeah. And I'm Amanda Bray. I came from the same place. My dad has three wives. First wife is my mom's older sister, and the third wife is your own is my dad's own half sister. And my dad has over 30 kids. How many kids does your dad have?

SPEAKER_01 2:22

I think 26.

SPEAKER_04 2:24

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Within three.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Wives? With two. He only got the two. In our group, you have to have three to make it to the highest degree of glory. So he just barely.

SPEAKER_04 2:36

He's not gonna make it into the celestial kingdom.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Not yet. I mean he's 80 years old. He still has a chance. He's in his 80s, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:42

Oh my gosh. I think my dad's in his 60s.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

It wasn't for lack of trying. He's he's tried to marry more girls. He just didn't.

SPEAKER_04 2:52

I heard, and maybe we could cut this out if you don't if you're uncomfortable with this part, but I heard that your dad tried to marry Michelle. Michelle that you had on this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Oh, I have heard similar things to that too.

SPEAKER_04 3:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

What who's your dad? My dad is Roger Kingston, so he's number is he 50? I should know this. 56 or 57?

SPEAKER_04 3:11

I think fift yeah, 56.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

I was under the impression for the longest time that he was 57, and and in our group, it's supposed to be like super significant to see your father's number everywhere. So after I left, I would see 57. I'd be like, oh, that's my dad, Spirit, saying hi. But it turns out you ended up telling us 56.

SPEAKER_05 3:28

So somebody else's dad's been saying hi, but is that Paul's full brother or half brother? Yeah. Okay. Just older brother.

SPEAKER_04 3:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 3:40

So so we have the same grandpa, but yeah, different grandmas. Who's your grandma?

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Um, Lavenda and Louise.

SPEAKER_04 3:48

Okay. And Louise is is your mom's.

SPEAKER_05 3:53

And you're one of the few people that actually has a Kingston name. They have left, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Um, most men don't leave that privilege from that group.

SPEAKER_05 4:01

Okay. Do you feel like you were one of the more privileged ones in the Kingston group, or I think people with the last name Kingston are.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

I wouldn't say myself, just because I didn't really tie into a lot of the things that they expect of us, but uh my brothers were always had that type of privilege. Like didn't have any issues getting wives in there.

SPEAKER_04 4:21

But you didn't really want wives, or did you?

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Oh no, no.

SPEAKER_04 4:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:25

You don't want wives. Why not?

SPEAKER_04 4:29

Yeah, he wanted husbands.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

I wanted a one hubby and no wives.

SPEAKER_04 4:34

When did you know that though about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Uh probably like 11 years old, I was aware that I was attracted to men. So and then I I always had the plan to stay in the order anyway, just so I can have that familial tile tie with them. But it overall it wasn't doing it. I tried dating women too after I left. I was like, maybe I can go back and have wives, and I was not having it. I'm like, you guys are no fun. We can we can go to a club, but that's the end of it. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 5:02

Yeah, it is interesting to hear. You've heard of some of the men knowing that they're gay but still living polygamy.

SPEAKER_05 5:08

Not really.

SPEAKER_04 5:09

You've never had anyone in the FLDS come out and say anything like that? Really?

SPEAKER_01 5:15

You guys are probably more deeply seated repressed in that area than we are. You think the critics probably, yeah. Probably.

SPEAKER_04 5:21

Yeah, because there's quite a few that are still closeted in, but then there's there's one that I know of that's left. Like Nephi, you know, Nephi. And he had multiple kids. I guess he didn't live polygamy, but he was married, had multiple kids, and then he was like, I can't do this anymore, I'm gay.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

That's tough. Good for him, though. Yeah, I mean, as long as it comes around eventually.

SPEAKER_04 5:41

I think they tried to make him do conversion therapy. Did you hear about that?

SPEAKER_01 5:46

I haven't heard anything about Nephi, but that doesn't surprise me whatsoever.

SPEAKER_04 5:50

So they didn't have conversion therapy in the FLDS?

SPEAKER_01 5:53

What's that?

SPEAKER_04 5:54

Like for it praise the gay away.

SPEAKER_05 5:57

Pray the gay away, I was gonna say yeah. I feel like if you're in the FLDS, just thinking about being gay is way too big of a sin. I think so too.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

It was kind of similar, like mum's the word as far as the gay is concerned. I didn't know what gay was when I knew I was attracted to men. I was just like, I'd see Charles Ingalls on TV watching Little House on the Prairie, as sad as that is. That's all we were allowed to watch. But I was like Charles Damn Boy, and then eventually eventually I learned what gay was. It's probably what I am, yeah. But mum's a word they don't talk about.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

It's Charles Ingalls.

SPEAKER_05 6:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

He was fine.

SPEAKER_05 6:35

Yeah, I feel like I'm still uncomfortable talking about gay people. Really? I don't believe. Yeah, I'm uncomfortable talking about it.

SPEAKER_04 6:42

Yeah. Well, because it was so just not talked about, huh?

SPEAKER_05 6:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:45

I wonder why you're gonna say something wrong. Yeah, we're being a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

I I understand where you come from too. So it's like it is deep-seated. It's even in my mind sometimes. I see a gay couple kissing him like ew, and then I'm like, wait, I'm married to him.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Like, am I gonna focus against myself?

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah, I do have to like, just because it's so instilled, that's the lifestyle we came from. You and I both came from similar, so I don't blame you for having that instinct to be like uh-uh, but about the simple.

SPEAKER_05 7:13

I can joke about it sometimes. I just don't know if I can do it appropriately.

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:18

Like it's pretty easy for me to walk up to some random guy and be like, you know, it's been like a couple weeks since I told a dude he was hot, but you're like smoking hot, you know. See, see, there's nothing offensive about that until he was funny. Yeah. That makes guys uncomfortable. Really? It's funny, you know. That's actually fun to do.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:39

Tell guys that like you're serious.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Like you're just kind of gauge what where they're at. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:46

If they take you too offensive offensively, then you're like, dude, he's gay.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Really?

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Oh yeah. I can see what you mean. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. When I was in the closet, I was like very hostile towards I was I was exaggeratively acting like I was homophobic. And then it and when it came to women too, I'd be like, I'd exaggerate that too. Like, oh, she's so fine, just to try to prove to my straight buddies that I'm straight. Yeah. So I it twists the mind up a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 8:14

Do you think it tricked people or were people like nah he's gay?

SPEAKER_01 8:17

I think it was both sides. I've had people tell me that they're they're like, yeah, no, straight guys don't actually talk like that.

SPEAKER_04 8:22

You're like trying so hard to pretend to be straight.

SPEAKER_05 8:25

Yeah. Well, can you tell us a little bit about your childhood and growing up and like how was it different from because you're quite are you quite a bit older than Amanda or it was only about the same age? A few years older. Few years older.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Yeah, I'm 36 right now.

SPEAKER_05 8:39

Okay. So did you grow up kind of in the same uh social life as Amanda? And how was that?

SPEAKER_01 8:47

We saw each other at church functions.

SPEAKER_04 8:49

Yeah, we weren't like super close because we were different age groups, but and different families, but also I feel like he in the same breath of like that Kingston name and and the differences with having that, you had some pretty big responsibilities because of that. Like he was supposed to, you've heard about when Paul was getting questioned for because Paul has uh a few incest wives, so then there was like the state was trying to get uh DNA samples of these incest kids. So then he put those families in hiding. Um and Josh was supposed to go basically live out in hiding with them and run the families. And you were only like 17.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

The the district attorney had uh released some warrants for uh to collect DNA from the children to determine which ones were products of incest, which ones were the product of underage marriage and things like that. Um they didn't want me to go out originally, they had basically sent them out on their own, and we weren't allowed to know where they were either. So all of my sisters, a few of my sisters just vanished off the face of the earth. They never talked about it ever. Like my parents didn't tell us where they went, so I had to just eventually notice they didn't come around anymore.

SPEAKER_04 9:57

What the hell? Yeah, they just thought you wouldn't notice, or they just didn't bother to tell you.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

I don't know what their frame of thought was, but basically, once I figured it out, I asked my dad, and he's like, Don't worry about it, they're safe. Um, and then a couple years later, he they came to visit, but they weren't allowed to tell us because they thought that somebody would let it slip to the state that they were visiting, and then they would get collected.

SPEAKER_05 10:19

So pretty much Paul has some wives that well, they're like way too related. Half half sister or something, yeah, sisters, half brother or sister.

SPEAKER_04 10:29

Sisters, nieces, and then I guess you were saying like because the marriages were under really underage. And so if they if they traced the child back.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

I think they were just very uncomfortable with the practices that they were doing altogether, and so they were trying to find anything that they could that tied to illegal activity, and so uh, but it's very difficult because polygamous men don't claim the children on birth certificates, and there's just not a paper trail to tie them back.

SPEAKER_05 10:55

Yeah, I had uh Andrew on the other day, and he was he was telling me that his mother and father were like half half siblings. Andrew who Andrew Robinson.

SPEAKER_04 11:06

Oh yeah, Dan Daniel's kid. So Daniel and Patricia were half siblings.

SPEAKER_05 11:10

That is crazy.

SPEAKER_04 11:11

And Daniel, in did he tell you the the daycare story? How he told her, like, I'm gonna marry you in daycare or or being babysat? That's how when he knew that he was gonna marry his sister.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

That is so it wasted.

SPEAKER_04 11:23

When they were still in diapers.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

That is how it wasted.

SPEAKER_04 11:26

Wait, so then my question is how did you get put in charge of the family out in hiding?

SPEAKER_01 11:31

No, they so eventually they did come to visit um out of the blue, and they still didn't tell us where they were hiding. Um and they said they were there just for the day to wrap some paperwork up or something like that. I can't recall, but uh I I begged my sister to let me go back with them because they told me they were in hiding alone and it made it didn't set well with me. And so she called Daniel, which is Paul Kingston's brother and right-hand man who was married to my sister, and she asked him, and it it took her a while to convince him a little bit, but finally he allowed me to crawl into a win windowless van with zero seats with a bunch of kids.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

What the heck?

SPEAKER_01 12:08

They didn't have seats in it, and so windows were blacked out. Didn't tell us where we were going, and ended up in a single wide trailer in the middle of nowhere with three wives and 20 something kids.

SPEAKER_03 12:19

In one trailer?

SPEAKER_01 12:20

For a while, then it was eventually they split them out. Paul's favorite wife, um, the leader's favorite wife that was out in hiding, she got her own little farmhouse, and then the rest were still in that trailer.

SPEAKER_04 12:30

What the hell? Yeah, would you could you tell there was jealousy?

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Oh yeah. And you can you can totally understand the jealousy too, because when they were all in the trailer together, Paul would only visit his wife's to impregnate them, so he he timed it with their cycles and things. And then he would stay with one wife one night, the next wife the next night, and the next wife the next night, and two rooms were next door to each other, and the other one was across the hall. So you can kind of imagine, and there were only three bedrooms in the trailer, so all of those children were sleeping in the living room and in the breezeway outside.

SPEAKER_05 13:02

That is the level of efficiency you gotta put on to have the world record for the kids.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

That's the efficiency I strive to kind of look up to.

SPEAKER_04 13:11

You've been you've been trying really hard to get that number.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Yep. I've always wanted to have a million kids that I don't have to support.

SPEAKER_04 13:17

Is your is your husband pregnant?

SPEAKER_01 13:20

He could be.

SPEAKER_04 13:22

That's a crazy thing.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Efficiency won't solve that one.

SPEAKER_04 13:27

Just imagine that trailer with all the kids. You're just like open open the doors, kids here and there, open the cupboards, there's kids in there.

SPEAKER_05 13:33

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:34

Kids everywhere.

SPEAKER_05 13:35

Yeah. I feel like all polygamists have it have to have a trailer house.

SPEAKER_03 13:40

Why?

SPEAKER_05 13:41

You don't qualify as a polygamist if you don't have some sort of a trailer house. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

White trash. I don't know. Your white trash.

SPEAKER_05 13:49

I don't know. It's just one of the requirements. Everywhere I go and see polygamists, they have a so they have some sort of a trailer house somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

In the Kingston group, that they have a practice. Uh the men will, a lot of the men will purchase apartment buildings, apartment complexes. But then they'll marry women to fill up those apartments, and then the women will pay them rent, so they're paying their mortgage, and they're profiting off their wives, and they're sleeping with these women, and they're forcing them to have multiple children, and they're not providing for them financially unless it's the first wife.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Isn't that insane?

SPEAKER_01 14:20

They're institutionalizing childhood neglect, is what I tell people. And I have brothers that try to defend this, and they'll say, Well, on the outside of this group, um, there's most of the men will impregnate a woman and then take off on her, and they'll abandon the children. I was like, What you're doing is worse. Yeah, you're making them suffer. You're forcing them to have all these children, you're still abandoning the children because you don't pay for them for financially. And those women on the outside who do have men that leave them, those women are then free to find a man that's going to support their children.

SPEAKER_04 14:51

Right. I'm free to not have to keep getting pregnant every year.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Exactly. Yeah, it's like what they're doing is worse, in my mind.

SPEAKER_04 14:57

But yeah. But it's so different than FLDS, though, right? Because FLDS, from my understanding, they at least try to take care of the women.

SPEAKER_05 15:06

Yeah, they they do try to take care of them a little bit more. I wouldn't say they actually do take care of their emotional needs at all, but physically I feel like they take better care of them.

unknown 15:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

You know? I mean, there's only so much you can do. Um, one person can do you're spread you're spread thin when you have a large family, but when you have an insanely large family, there's only so much you can do for them.

SPEAKER_05 15:28

Yeah. So is this the only time Paul's really put his wives in hiding? Because my dad did that a lot, like always putting his wives in hiding, you know.

SPEAKER_04 15:38

Why did your dad do it?

SPEAKER_05 15:39

I think part of it was just he was paranoid. But he always had his his wives over in some secret house in Colorado, you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

So is this kind of the only yeah, yours isn't they did end up in Colorado, they're very lenient in Colorado for polygamy and incest for some reason.

SPEAKER_05 15:55

Yeah, they're more lenient, but also everybody over up in the mountains in Colorado is either like growing weed or or there's some rich kid that that can have a house over there, or they're you know, polygamous or something. So weird. It's like not associated with Utah. It's it's kind of a way to get away from it all. They're more lenient over there. Everybody's kind of doing their own thing, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

They ended Paul ended up buying a large property, and the neighbor came and asked us if he could use the back 20 to store fertilizer, and we were all too naive to understand that he was growing magic mushrooms, which we saw, but we didn't click. I'm like, I wish I knew back then I would go collect them.

SPEAKER_03 16:39

Any um other patents from there.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Good time I'd go on a trip.

SPEAKER_05 16:43

Yeah. So when you were a young child, did did you have a pretty normal childhood? Like, did you go to school have a pretty chill childhood? Was your dad very mean? Or was was he like pretty chill? You know?

SPEAKER_01 16:58

That's a broad, broad ranger question.

SPEAKER_05 17:01

Well, because everybody, every kingston kid that comes on, I feel like, is like, yeah, my dad like beat beat the shit out of me.

SPEAKER_04 17:08

And so I was just so basically this is his way of asking, did you get beat?

SPEAKER_05 17:12

Just yeah, did your dad beat the shit out of you?

SPEAKER_01 17:15

I'll start with I I started my YouTube channel that I haven't been nearly as um focused on as I should be, but it's called a life out of order because I'm out of the order, and then also it was very unstable and like inconsistent growing up, so my life was a tangled mess.

SPEAKER_05 17:30

So it was in the order, but out of order.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Oh, life out of order, in the order. Yeah, exactly. See, he gets it. No, um, my dad, I heard from my brothers he was very aggressive to the younger children before I was born. And then at some point, my mother died very young, and we all had to move into one house together, and for those two years of chaos, and he was very, very aggressive and physically abusive, and so was his wife, who was pretty young at the time in her 20s. Um, they did grow out of that, and right now they're they're pretty respectable as parents, I would say now.

SPEAKER_04 18:05

Yeah. I think too, the reason why you hear everyone from the Kingstons has been abused. I I mean, tell me if you agree or disagree, but that whole idea of like the children need to be uh obedient at a young age. And so I remember them talking about like even a six-month-old baby can obey. You just gotta teach them. And by teach, it's like they would slap them. And sometimes like you're they're like slapping them like, quick, Brian! Like that's how dumb they are, because they want the respect of this child.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Yeah, they get frustrated that the that a child can't obey in the way that they're preteens and teenage children.

SPEAKER_05 18:41

Yeah, and I think that's really harmful because like I think I was pretty shut up by the time I was three. In the FLDS, they have this thing like, if a child is not obedient by the time they're three, they never will be.

SPEAKER_03 18:55

Oh my god. Why three?

SPEAKER_05 18:57

This is a random just just if like you can give them some leniency before that, but by the time you're three, you gotta be perfectly obedient.

SPEAKER_04 19:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 19:06

Or you're or you're gonna be a piece of shit your whole life.

SPEAKER_04 19:09

So do you think that that was three years old is when you kind of shut off all the oh a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Yeah, they're still shitting on diapers and they're expecting you to pay your bills.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Yeah, it's funny. Is it? Just kidding. It's not, it's a funny, it's fucked, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:24

Well, I think that's one of the big reasons I I like struggle so much to say what I think a lot of times.

SPEAKER_04 19:31

Yeah, because you were shut down your entire life for having emotions and feelings. So then now you're like, Am I even a is this a a true thought or emotion or feeling that I should be having? And then for us, it was like happy was the only thing that we would get praised for. So my dad would literally be like, he would be threatening a child to to hit that child and be like, unless you can be happy, smile and be happy. And like she's like crying, he's like, Oh, are you gonna are you not gonna be happy? And like you're gonna run over there and hit her. And so she's like, Happy, happy. So it's like shutting everything down and trying to pretend that you're happy. But that's how all of us in the order were. Everyone was just this zombie that's pretending to be happy.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

And you're constantly in fear of what you're saying or doing is going to trigger your parents because they were so short-tempered.

SPEAKER_04 20:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Yeah. Kids need to be allowed to be children. Uh, a lot of people on the outside will like spank their kids to punish them, and I'm pretty much against that too. But you gotta think if you're an adult and you think that that's an acceptable way of teaching your child something, why do you stop spanking them when they're old enough to fight back? It's because you're okay hitting something that's defense for defenseless, and as soon as they're old enough to defend themselves, then you're like, oh, I better think of another way to communicate or get my point across to them. So I think it's abusive.

SPEAKER_04 20:46

Yeah. They're only hitting them when they're too young to defend themselves.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

And I think if you're not capable of resolving, I'm not a parent, so but I'm by I am super preachy.

SPEAKER_04 20:57

But you also helped raise your family, so you had to be a parent, kind of.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

If you're not capable of getting a child in line or accepting that they're going to be out of line, sometimes I don't think you should be a parent.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Right.

SPEAKER_05 21:08

Well, you know how you were saying one of your dad's younger wives was kind of mean. Uh I get some sometimes I get some shit for talking shit on dad's wives.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:19

And when when when they were uh 15, 16, 17, I was just like eight or or whatever, and they were being mean, and I was like, yeah, now I I get to talk shit on them now if I want to.

SPEAKER_04 21:37

Yeah, I'm gonna.

SPEAKER_05 21:38

And everybody's like, oh, but they were a victim. I just I just wonder, do you feel like, from your view, even no matter the age or the gender, if you stay in a cult like that, don't you think you like become kind of a tyrant or whatever?

SPEAKER_01 21:55

I mean, you kind of have to. Um I used to call my Grandmother a warden because she has so many grandkids, she just had to be super strict. So I think it does they do kind of evolve into that type of person. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:08

I can sympathize for the women because obviously it's obvious that the women are put through a lot more, like they're the ones pushing out like a kid every year, they're the ones, like Josh was saying, like paying the rent, you're not getting any support, having to like all these expectations on the woman. But does that mean that they're not also an abuser? You know? Yeah. There comes a point where it's like you can sympathize with and like even with my mom, I'm like, I feel bad. She was manipulated into the relationship with her sister's husband. She was very young, she was also a victim of the situation, but then a long enough time she became a perpetrator too.

SPEAKER_05 22:45

Yeah. And I give a I give my dad's wives a lot of grace too. I'm I'm just saying. Like I also get the privilege to shit on them.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Yeah. Yeah, you should be able to speak your mind. No. I respect my dad's second wife a lot. She's she took uh our family in when my mother died. She took in way more children than she uh was expecting to, and she she did a really good job. It was just those couple of years that things were hectic for all of us. Like I was abusive to my siblings, everybody was just chaos because it wasn't you went you go through a tragedy and your families are all forced together, you're gonna have some conflict. So I do give her grace there, but I'm like, yeah, she did beat the shit out of me for a good for a good minute there. I will admit that.

SPEAKER_05 23:23

And when did your mom die?

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Uh so I was nine years old and she was 45. Um, the order does not do regular checkups at the hospital. Uh they they don't believe really in Western medicine or they say that, but I really think it's because their families are so large they can't afford medical for everybody. So she died from a very uh easily preventable condition at a very young age. She never drank, she ate pretty healthy, and yet a blood clot knocked her out. Like we went to school, came back, and she was gone. It happened that fast.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Just like a heart attack.

SPEAKER_05 23:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Yeah. We didn't we didn't know she was sick or anything or had any issues. It was just spur of the moment.

SPEAKER_04 24:02

She never complained of anything, any pain.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Um, my brothers say she complained about what is it called? Veric calls. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:12

And they thought that had something to do with the blood clot, but I was getting scared that I might have a blood clot because I'm bruising. Like, look at this. There's like all these bruises right here. But what is that on your wrist? That was from the bar last night.

SPEAKER_05 24:33

Was that what you got beat up at the bar?

SPEAKER_04 24:35

No, I did play volleyball, so maybe, but that's weird to have that many bruises from volleyball. But then I spiral, I looked it up and I was and uh it was like it could be a blood cloth. So then I looked up all this. But I get paranoid.

SPEAKER_05 24:50

That's when you get a panic attack.

SPEAKER_04 24:52

Yep. I'm gonna die, I know it's happening right now.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

WebMD will do that.

SPEAKER_04 24:58

I'm still that way though, with uh, are you like this where because we were so educated anti the hospitals, it's so hard to get yourself to finally allow yourself to go get checked out.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

Oh yeah, I do put things off way too far. There's just for like uh an example, um, I'm pretty sure I had asthma as a kid because I would have these really sharp pains that would come up randomly, and when I would inhale, it was like a blade was coming out of my stomach, like stabbing me in the lung. And so I would not tell my parents about it, I would just try to sit and breathe through it. But one day it got so bad that I felt like I was gonna collapse and I couldn't breathe for a good few minutes, so I ran inside and I like was very hectic about it. So they loaded me into the car to take me to the hospital because they were able to acknowledge that it was an emergency situation. But then on the way there, they're shoveling powdered vitamin C into my mouth because they believe in natural healing and they think vitamin C is the cure-all. And I'm like, I cannot breathe, and you're forcing powder, clay-like powder, it mixes with the mice alive and it's like choking me with clay. And so I'm still having this asthma attack, I believe it is, and looking back. And so I stop and I'm like telling them, No, I'm better, I'm good, I'm better, you can stop now. And so from then on, when it happens, I had to sit sit alone quietly and breathe very slowly through it and handle it myself because I was so terrified to go to the hospital because they were gonna cram clay down my throat. Oh no, because they're so uneducated about medicine.

SPEAKER_04 26:27

But yeah, that's what they would do. Like, I swear to god, it was like, oh, your arm got cut off. Here, drink some comfreies. Oh yeah, oh my god. They were crazy. Even like my little brother Victor. My little brother, so I was outside um unloading stuff from this garage, and I hear him screaming. So I run over and I and he's like limping. He had been playing on my grandpa, he was a potato cutter inventor, so he had all these like rusty potato cutters in the back of the home. He had been jumping back and forth and playing on them and slid his foot open. His sock was like full of blood. So I lifted him up and I ran inside. And my mom is like, Oh, call your dad. And so she's like taking his sock off, it's like full of blood. He's screaming, and she's like calling my dad to see what we should do. And then, meanwhile, the neighbors come knock on the door and they come in and they're like, We just wanted to know if you guys wanted to buy some shirl scalp cookies. And I thought my mom would be like, Not now, but she was like, Can you put me down for she's like making an order while her kid is like screaming with blood in the sink? My dad gets there and he just had my brother hold him down and he stitched him up. He had like tissue coming out of his foot and he just stitched him up right there.

SPEAKER_05 27:40

Dang.

SPEAKER_04 27:41

I think I'm pretty sure that's illegal, right?

SPEAKER_05 27:44

Yeah, yeah, they have to LDS are a lot that way.

SPEAKER_04 27:47

They just do themselves.

SPEAKER_05 27:48

Yeah, I broke my leg and they're like, oh, let's wait a few days.

SPEAKER_04 27:53

See if it heals itself.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

That's not even it's sad that that's not surprising to us at all. To me at all, at least. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:00

So then eventually you got to go to the hospital.

SPEAKER_05 28:02

Yep, it just hurt too bad. Totally broken.

SPEAKER_04 28:07

They're like, just try walking on it.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

God will heal you.

SPEAKER_05 28:12

Right. So, how did that affect you having your mom die at nine?

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Um, that was pretty rough. Um, so that's actually when I started to question the order. So I um would go to school. Basically, my frame of thought, even as a at a nine-year nine years old, is that we dedicate our entire lives to God, to Jesus, to the Messiah, whatever. And we're praying every day consistently. We had like, did you guys also do the 7 a.m. and the 7 p.m. and then noon and meditation and then reciting the order standard all methodically?

SPEAKER_05 28:45

Every day, and dedicating okay, so you have 7 a.m. like prayer or something, yeah, right before school.

SPEAKER_04 28:51

Yeah, so it's five-minute meditation, so you like bow your head, and you're supposed to meditate about like the order, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

And the downfall of our enemies, the downfall of the enemies. Oh, okay. Anybody hurting the order, I'm supposed to be like, get up, get up.

SPEAKER_04 29:05

Kill him. And then every it's it's so cold. Everybody raises their head at the same time and they go, It is my firm. Do you remember it?

SPEAKER_00 29:12

It is my firm resolve and fixed purpose to give my all to the Lord, my time, my talents, all that I am, or ever expected to be. True happiness is not found doing what you want to do, but then you would like to do the things you ought to do.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

That's where I always it gets murky after that, yeah. They all added a lot to it after that, so there was always. I really appreciate you guys saying that.

SPEAKER_04 29:37

Isn't that creepy?

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Doesn't the presence in your house just feel more thankful? Yes. I know, right?

SPEAKER_04 29:42

Yes. But yeah, just imagine that everyone's in a circle every day, and then you literally everybody comes and gathers at seven and then they bow their head together or something.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

For five minutes, for five minutes, everybody in a tire order, no matter where you are. When we're at school, noon would hit and the bell would go off, and everybody in outside recess in your class, you drop.

SPEAKER_05 30:01

Yeah, so you you just bow your head and then say that all at the same time.

SPEAKER_04 30:06

I don't remember we said it in school.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

We don't we don't say it until our head comes back up, so it's quiet five minutes.

SPEAKER_04 30:11

Yeah, you hear pin drop.

SPEAKER_05 30:13

Dude, you should take a video of that. Yeah, that'd be creepy.

SPEAKER_04 30:17

Just do a uh one.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

You'd be able to go to the just go to the school and to the parking lot when they're out. Little recess. I guess it's creepy to film kids. So when the school let's not film kids.

SPEAKER_04 30:28

Yeah, that that was always something that I mean it's normal when you're in there, but then when outsiders would would somehow get a glimpse of it, they're like, that was weird. And they would say the facing north thing was weird. Everybody for prayer would get up, turn the same direction, and then bow their heads.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

The same to the holy spot was north. Yeah, but uh yeah. So we dedicate all that time to our God or whatever, and then my the tragedy happens and my mother dies. So in my nine-year-old brain, I'm like, why are we giving all of this energy to this omnipotent being, and then he doesn't defend our family? Yeah, doesn't protect us from tragedy. So I'm questioning, I think at that point God looked down and he turned to Peter and he said, Make that one gay, we don't want him reproducing. He questions too much.

SPEAKER_03 31:13

He has too many critical thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Don't reproduce that one. He's questioning me. But yeah, so that's a difficult part. But then I also when I started questioning the order, so after that I became kind of distant from the order, and I I would go to church just to establish a presence there, and my dad would see me, and then I would sneak out the back, and my friends would go wander around until it was time for dad to see us at church again. But yeah, pretty much the basic of it.

SPEAKER_05 31:40

So I was hitting puberty for you because maybe that's kind of an odd question, but I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_04 31:48

Well, why because it was a big thing for you?

SPEAKER_05 31:50

Well, I just I just feel like it's super untalked about. Like you nobody ever knows they're hitting puberty. I sh I didn't know I was hitting puberty. Yeah, I didn't even know that was a thing. I didn't know that you change or anything as you get older, so you know I was just curious.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Like they really don't talk about it in in groups like ours.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

We did discuss on our when we did the podcast together, we discussed Paul performing his first maturation class, and I think the state required him to perform maturation class for him to be considered an accredited school. And that's the only reason he did it. Like it had to be a part of a syllabus. Like a sex class for him to get public funds. Yeah. Okay. But he didn't trust a doctor or anything to come in because I think they'd questioned anyone from the outside coming in that was a professional because they would see something that would question like they'd send DCFS or something.

SPEAKER_04 32:40

Or they didn't want them to give them too too much information for the kids to know about it.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

I didn't want to teach them about their reproductive parts before.

SPEAKER_04 32:48

And I'm sure they would come in and be like, and here's what a condom is, right? And they don't want anyone having condoms.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Makes sense too.

SPEAKER_04 32:55

So then were you just confused then when you were a kid?

SPEAKER_01 32:58

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:59

Well, I didn't know what gay was, and I just knew I was attracted to men, but um that's basically all the puberty was for when you hit puberty and you're gay, do you just start being more attracted to men?

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Yeah, I just started being attracted to men and it was a little bit weird. I was like, why do I want to kiss Charles Ingalls? That's not normal.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

Charles Ingalls can kiss me.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Why why am I having these feelings? But um, yeah. It it looks it feels normal now that I'm looking back. I don't know that I have an understanding of puberty, but back then I was like, what is happening to me?

SPEAKER_04 33:32

I wonder if it's similar to like girls too, because when I hit a certain age, I was like, boys, boys, like I would like to start foaming in the mouth.

SPEAKER_05 33:41

When you hit puberty, you feel that way.

SPEAKER_04 33:42

And it's even worse because you're not allowed to really be around them. So when you are around them, you're like, ugh, I don't know what to do with myself.

SPEAKER_05 33:51

Run.

SPEAKER_04 33:53

Was you that way with girls?

SPEAKER_05 33:56

Well, I so much didn't think of them, but yeah, they started giving me boners.

SPEAKER_04 34:01

What's happening to me down there?

SPEAKER_05 34:04

Yeah, just trying to tuck it up under my belt, you know.

SPEAKER_04 34:06

You're like, I'm I'm allergic to her, I'm smelling.

SPEAKER_05 34:09

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 34:11

You never asked anyone, like, how come this happened to me?

SPEAKER_05 34:14

Oh, hell no.

SPEAKER_04 34:15

I guess because it was your privates, right? Yeah, talk about it.

SPEAKER_05 34:18

Yeah, I remember the first time I got a boner.

SPEAKER_04 34:20

You too?

SPEAKER_05 34:21

Oh yeah. What the fuck is going on? I don't know if something's wrong with me. Almost every time I walk, you know, I did something after that. I just accidentally get a boner, you know. I'd be walking into our, you know, our our living room and I just get a boner. I'd be like, how do I make this go away?

SPEAKER_01 34:41

You just flap it up, flap it up into your belt and tighten it and be like, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 34:50

Because yeah, I've heard that the because obviously I don't have a painter, but I've heard that at that age, it like a gust of wind can make it hard to do.

SPEAKER_05 34:59

Yeah, yeah, that's true. It's a problem. God, it was a problem. I was always trying to hide that. It's a good thing. I had like we always wore jeans and several layers of clothes, you know, keep that thing strapped in there.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Pitching a chant when you're sleeping was the worst. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:18

Wait, but you had people coming and checking checking in on you at night because he was saying that he had to have his hands above the sheets.

SPEAKER_05 35:24

Yeah, we did. Uh, I would say by the time I was 13, 14 that people didn't really come in in the room very often. Yeah, when we were when we were eight and nine, yeah, people come put put your hands above the sheets, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Wow. That is insane.

SPEAKER_04 35:41

We didn't have much privacy because we were all crammed into one room together, but what when you were cause because you guys moved into the second wife's home, how many kids did you have to share a room with that?

SPEAKER_01 35:53

So there's an old Victorian home that his second wife was living in that she had gotten from her parents after they died. It was a pretty small Victorian home, but the bedrooms were tiny, so we had like seven boys crammed into three sets of bunk beds into a tiny, tiny room. Um they did have two massive rooms downstairs, but my parents consider that too far from their bedroom and away from um their eyes or whatever. Thought that we'd be all doing things wrong, so they didn't allow us in those rooms, so they turned those into storage rooms.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

Are you serious?

SPEAKER_01 36:25

So they had the space. Yeah, they had the space, they didn't use it. My dad was a hoarder. I think I've mentioned this to you before. So any anytime he saw open space, he didn't think, oh, comfort for my kids. He thought, oh, my useless documents and stuff can save.

SPEAKER_05 36:40

So so he was pretty strict because he didn't even want you to be very far away or Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Yeah. He even set up an alarm, uh, like a laser alarm to prevent us from using the bathroom at night without him being woken up. Yeah. Because the girls' room was on the other side of the alarm and he didn't want us walking past the girls' room.

SPEAKER_05 37:00

What did he think you guys were gonna do? Like fuck each other?

SPEAKER_01 37:04

I think so. I mean, we're from a polygamous group and that's pretty common. So at least he thought that there was a potential that that could possibly happen, and he wanted to take all measures to prevent that, even if it made us super, super uncomfortable. Even if I had to wake up in the middle and I piss out my bedroom window because I was so afraid of waking the entire house up.

SPEAKER_04 37:21

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Just to use the bathroom.

SPEAKER_04 37:23

Yeah, there was some stuff like that. We're like, don't go in the boys' rooms, but I think it's because they were fucking their sisters. Like my dad was with his sister having kids, so he's like, Don't be going in your brother's rooms now.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

That's all fucked.

SPEAKER_04 37:37

Yeah, but then it creates this weird relationship where you can't actually have a genuine relationship with your sibling. Cause it's like you're being accused basically of sexualizing them when you're a child and don't even know how to do that. So then it creates this monster. You kind of talked about that, right? Where it's like you felt like your body was this evil thing.

SPEAKER_05 37:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:55

Because they projected that onto you.

SPEAKER_05 37:58

Yeah, I have kind of a weird question.

SPEAKER_04 38:02

They've all been weird thus far.

SPEAKER_05 38:04

Yeah, stay consistent. You bet. Um, so me and my brothers, like we would never like, I don't think any of us ever like we never saw each other even without our shirts off. Okay. Like, how strict are like if if you're with your brothers in the Kingston group, is that pretty common to like see each other with your shirt off or even see each other's dicks or whatever?

SPEAKER_00 38:33

No.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Uh uh.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

I think it depends.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

I think we would moon each other every once in a while. I mean when you just a full moon out and just show your ass. You guys didn't do that? Oh wow, yeah. I really not in front of adults because we would get whooping. It wouldn't be a moon, it would be a scarlet sky or whatever. Uh yeah, so we'd moon and then we we often talked about who had larger ones, which is not fun to talk about anymore. No, I'm just kidding. But we'd go in the other rooms and we'd measure, and then we just trusted that we were telling the truth. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:04

Okay, so you you did it on your own measure and then showed each other.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Yeah, not in front of each other. I have heard stories of people in my family doing in-person measuring like visually, and I'm like, oh, and I'm the gay one.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

You guys are gay.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

That's the gayest thing I've ever heard.

SPEAKER_05 39:24

Well, the reason I had to ask is because uh my brother's girlfriend, she was we were talking, you know, when you have these family meetups, you can't help but sometimes get sexual talk going on. But she was like, You guys haven't ever seen each other's dicks, and we're like, fuck no, she couldn't believe that. She's like, What the fuck? Every every guy, every every brother's seen the other brother's dick. Like, you guys are crazy, you know. And I was like, What the fuck are you talking about?

SPEAKER_04 39:52

I think in a normal world, yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

It varies, yeah. It depends.

SPEAKER_04 39:55

And me and my sisters were really weird about that stuff. Like when we were little kids, our mom would bath us all together because we were so little and she didn't want to waste water. But then when we started to go through like puberty, then it was like no more bath times, and we were all like, Don't look at me when I'm changing. But then after leaving, it wasn't a big deal.

SPEAKER_05 40:14

Yeah. Well, these are the kind of important things I need to get to the bottom of sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 40:19

So yeah. And it was weird too. Val said it was weird how we were raised so strict in that way, but then he got sent off to the mine and everyone was showering together at the mine.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

He's like a perverted Sherlock Holmes over there. Sherlock Holmes. Yeah, we need to get to the bottom of these dick questions.

SPEAKER_04 40:36

Someone's gonna help me. So, so now are you wanting to measure your brothers?

SPEAKER_05 40:42

No, I have absolutely no desire.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

Are you at least curious who's the biggest? That's like the ultimate measure of masculinity.

SPEAKER_05 40:50

Yeah, I feel like I can't fully trust their measurement.

SPEAKER_04 40:53

No, yeah, they would be lying, you think?

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Yeah, they'd probably lie. Tell them to take a picture, black it out just with the edges showing, and and a tape measure next to it. And a tape measure next to it. You just get the silver lining of their penis. That's not gay.

unknown 41:06

That's not gay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

Or incest.

SPEAKER_05 41:10

I'll get my mom on the podcast and question her down about dad's day. I would watch that all day to Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Please do.

SPEAKER_04 41:18

I have a feeling he Warren has a small one.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

I mean, yeah. She has that kind of energy.

SPEAKER_04 41:24

He does. He has the same as Sam B.

SPEAKER_05 41:26

I guess we'll we'll find out.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

I mean, you can kind of question your own, like what's mine, and I have his genetics. Does he have a small one? I don't think he does. Let me see your feet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:39

I heard that theory of um, you can tell by the tip of this to this. Is that what? Oh, it's supposed to be that?

SPEAKER_05 41:46

Wait, you can tell how big someone's dick is? From the tip of their thumb to dick.

SPEAKER_04 41:50

Is it pinky and thumb?

SPEAKER_05 41:51

How do you do that?

SPEAKER_04 41:51

I've never seen it that way. I thought it was actually the top of the middle finger all the way down to like the So that hits the base of your taint, and then this goes.

SPEAKER_05 42:04

If you want an accurate. I don't know if that's about everybody's like it's a very good thing.

SPEAKER_04 42:10

You're right. I don't think that that's uh uh accurate because some people could just have micro in there.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Some people's are growers and some people's are showers, so it depends at what state are the rest of it.

SPEAKER_04 42:22

It makes it such a big deal. I feel like men created that idea because I've never I don't share how big people's dicks are. I've had talked with a lot of girls about it, and they the the general consensus, I guess, is it doesn't matter as long as it's at least average, then they're not really gonna be upset. If it's micro, then yeah, it's a problem. But I've never met a girl that was like, it has to be huge, you know what I mean, or like talking so much about how big it is. I would say it's men that are always talking about how big it is.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

I'd say if it fits, it's decent, but if it's stretching you out, you're probably just daily.

unknown 42:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

If you if you're a different shape when it's done.

SPEAKER_05 43:04

Oh bang. Okay, so uh what age did you first uh did you ever get think did they ever want to marry you in the order or uh around the time that all my brothers of the same age were um questioning getting married, we'd have to present present ourselves for it when we felt like we were ready and I was not ever ready.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

So all my brothers would go and speak to Paul and then their entire personalities would change because he gives them a very strict, narrow list of traits that he would qualify them for the marriage. Um so they would all change. But I I myself they would talk to me about pursuing that, but they uh I never presented myself. Like, no, no, thank you. And then I did leave when I was I left to help them in hiding when I was like seventeen, and I stayed there till I was about nineteen, and then I left the order after that. So that was About the time when I would have been married otherwise.

SPEAKER_04 44:02

Yeah. Because you know the process of marriage, right? Is that the man has the direction and then he has to do the coming forward. So that's the having the meeting with Paul, getting the approval to actually talk to the girl. So you base your brothers were doing the deeds to like have the direction, go talk to Paul. And then Paul was telling them, okay, do the solve these riddles, basically. Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

It's solve the riddles before you're allowed to be um have the direction. Before you're allowed to have the direction, before they'll consider your direction valid valid, you have to uh change these certain things about at least in my brothers' cases. Um, they never had a specific girl in mind, and they just knew they wanted uh marriage and family, and so they were told this is what you have to do.

SPEAKER_04 44:44

Okay. Did you ever have direction on a girl?

SPEAKER_01 44:47

No, before I hit puberty though, I had a crush on a girl that I felt like every time she'd come around, my heart would start fluttering, but there was nothing sexually desirable about it. But I was very, very flush in the face, and I I just wanted to be around her all the time. I'm like, I love her, but it's because she was on the outskirts of the group, and I got sick of seeing the same people all the time, and then she came in and I was like, something new. Oh my god, it's so exciting!

SPEAKER_05 45:13

So you don't know if you're gay until you hit puberty.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I absolutely 100% would have never considered doing anything with a man before you hit puberty. And then the devil entered me.

SPEAKER_04 45:26

And he never left. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 45:29

So did you feel left out when your brothers were getting married? Did you feel like the need to get married or girl?

SPEAKER_01 45:36

No, it just wasn't in my nature at all.

SPEAKER_05 45:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

I didn't uh I there is no FOM, no nothing.

SPEAKER_03 45:43

What about kids?

SPEAKER_01 45:47

FMO. Is it FMO? F O Fear of Missing One.

SPEAKER_04 45:52

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

FOMO. FOMO FOMO.

SPEAKER_04 45:56

FOM.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

No, um, I do feel like that that's a little bit of a struggle for me even now thinking about having kids because I would love to foster children so that I can give um some children that already exist a better life if I was going to do anything. But as far as reproducing, A, there's already enough Kingstons in the world. We don't need any more of those. Okay. And B, I did help raise my siblings and my nieces and nephews, so I don't feel like that desire that's like innate in all the humans, I don't feel like that went unanswered already. So I feel like I've already gotten that out of my system. I don't crave to be raising children because I already kind of did.

SPEAKER_04 46:38

That's how I feel too.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

But I would foster if my husband would ever grow up.

SPEAKER_04 46:43

He he doesn't want to foster?

SPEAKER_01 46:45

Well, he wants to be the baby. Like every six months, I think that's part of it. Every six months I'll bring it up and have a discussion with him, and then I'll gauge what his response is. And I'm like, I'm not gonna push him in anything that he's uncomfortable with, but he's slowly coming around.

SPEAKER_04 46:59

Yeah. For the longest time, I was like, I would want to adopt like maybe a baby, but babies are always the ones that get adopted. The ones that are just left there that no one wants are the teenagers. So if I ever did, I would want one of the ones that no one wants. It's like going to adopt a mutt mud that nobody wants.

SPEAKER_05 47:18

You want a kid that nobody else wants?

SPEAKER_04 47:20

Yeah, because those are the ones that that need it the most.

SPEAKER_05 47:23

Oh, yeah, that's fair. Why are you looking for a mom? A mom. Oh, I need oh, she she's like my older sister.

SPEAKER_03 47:32

Adopting you.

SPEAKER_04 47:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

No, it'd be fun to foster.

SPEAKER_04 47:37

I'm in the same boat. And and foster is like less commitment than adoption, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:42

I think so. Yeah. Also, the state helps financially. And if I was gonna adopt, I I'm not, I can't afford to adopt somebody. So the state would have to help financially.

SPEAKER_04 47:52

Isn't that crazy? You can't sell your kids, but the state can sell kids.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

That's weird.

SPEAKER_01 48:02

Yeah. Marco will say it shouldn't be, my husband will say it shouldn't be a business um thing. He thinks it's a business arrangement, right? And I tell him no, they're barely they're um they're just paying for the child some of the child's needs.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

So you're not making any money off of it. They're covering a portion of it, and you get to help too.

SPEAKER_02 48:24

Right.

SPEAKER_05 48:26

Um, so in in a gay marriage, uh, does top. I'm the top.

SPEAKER_04 48:33

Next question is.

SPEAKER_05 48:34

Next question is does both dudes call each other a husband? Or not really?

SPEAKER_01 48:42

I think we'll say spouse. I'll I'll gauge if I'm around a MAGA person and it's very obvious, I'll be like my spouse, so that they don't shit their pants.

SPEAKER_02 48:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

But um, so it depends what it is. I'll be like, we do call each other husband. Um if it's just me or him, I'll call them Pewter Pants.

SPEAKER_03 49:01

Pewter pants?

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Puder pants.

SPEAKER_05 49:03

Well, you don't call somebody a wife. I mean, you could if you want. Is that is that you only call women a wife?

unknown 49:10

I think so.

SPEAKER_04 49:12

I think some some gay couples jokingly are like, I'm the wife, he's the husband.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

I do think that that is pretty common.

SPEAKER_04 49:17

Yeah, like the one that the one that brings home the money is the husband.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

The one that wears florals and stuff.

SPEAKER_05 49:23

Well, can you tell us a story about leaving the order? And because you went to Colorado, you're with Paul's wives. What did you guys do over there? Like, were you just hanging out, chilling, chilling in the backcountry over there in Colorado, or what the fuck were you guys doing?

SPEAKER_01 49:40

Yeah, they had the so, like I said, they were on a trailer single wide um in the middle of nowhere close to Denver, uh, probably like a hundred acres of property, and this trailer was smack dab in the middle of it. Um, and like we had also mentioned, Paul doesn't support any children that aren't his first or second wife, basically. And neither does Daniel financially. So they were expected to provide for themselves. Um, so basically they set them up with the LLC winterizing and remodeling uh foreclosed homes. And so I went there to basically oversee that. Uh, but all his wife kept getting themselves knocked up, and that's it. I mean, at least they let them stop working when they're pregnant. And so at those points, when they're all pregnant, I would go do everything on my own. And then money would still go to them, obviously, because they needed to be supported. But so how you say somebody's pregnant?

SPEAKER_03 50:31

Knocked up. Knocked up.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Okay. I mean, in the order they don't call it that, they call it a blessing from from heaven, yeah. But um, yeah, so basically we did that for a couple of years. I got very uncomfortable with the living conditions of the children and the whole situation. Um, they were living in a breezeway that was uninsulated, so in in Colorado winters, and it was ice cold, and they would just like cram space heaters and and bunk beds, and all the children would crawl under heated blankets and they'd all be shivering and they're all it was very, very uncomfortable. And it wasn't the fact that they didn't have the resources. Paul has access to 10% of tithing from thousands of members. So he it's not that he didn't have the resources, as it's that he's stingy and he wants the money to himself. And then also in Colorado, when he purchased his favorite wife, that um large, beautiful country home, they had a guest house that was massive too. And they wouldn't let any of the children or myself who was providing for those wives live in there. I was living in in a garage. And so when Paul came next time, I asked him, I said, Can I please live in that guest house? I'm very uncomfortable in the garage. And he said, No, we need that in case there are any young wives that also need to come out here with us. And by that I thought he meant underage marriages that he needed to hide from from judgmental eyes. And so he was leaving that open while people that were actively trying to help him were going without any housing. And so um I had to decide at that point that I wanted to leave. I didn't have a vehicle or anything apart from the company uh vehicle, but they asked me they can't go to Utah or else the state will be on top of them. Um so they asked me to drive the company vehicle back to get it registered in Utah. Uh and at that point I drove back, got it registered, got everything taken care of, found another man in the order that was willing to drive it back, and then I stayed. And I just never went back to the order after that. Uh got a job at a diner, um stayed with a friend, and that was all freedom from there, basically.

SPEAKER_04 52:38

Was you kind of able to go back and forth like you could still see your family for a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 52:44

Uh they would ask me to go to church and to weddings and things, but the further the more radical I got to be, like I pierced my ears and I was like sinful. And I started smoking cigarettes, the more radical they would just cut me off more and more. And then eventually I wasn't able to go to any of my siblings' weddings, and I wasn't able to do any of these things. And they called me up and say you can't come for Christmas anymore. And I'm like, Okay, well, that's nice of you to say. Um, and then when I ended up coming out, that kind of cut off most of my family, so I fan figured out which ones were the true, like the people that I want in my life, people that were willing to overlook it and accept it.

SPEAKER_04 53:23

Was we got very few?

SPEAKER_01 53:24

It was about three or four that still talk to me. Only two of them will acknowledge him as my husband. They'll just say, How's your friend doing?

SPEAKER_00 53:32

Your friend?

SPEAKER_01 53:33

Yeah. So that's always fun. They always complain about how our parents don't give enough acknowledgement or recognition to their wife and children, and they're telling me that, venting that to me, and in my mind, I'm like, You have never said my husband's name. I've never heard my husband's name come out of your mouth, but I don't bring it up because I don't want that drama.

SPEAKER_05 53:51

But yeah, that's rude.

SPEAKER_01 53:53

Yeah. I mean, you get used to it. I appreciate the sisters I do have that do acknowledge it and things.

SPEAKER_05 54:01

So, how much money did you have when you left the order? Because you've been working from when you were younger, right?

SPEAKER_01 54:06

Yeah, I was working from when I think 12 years old is when I started. Um, and that I don't think they were paying me for the first couple years, they'd just give me a candy bar at the end of my ship.

unknown 54:18

Like, oh boy.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

They'd have me in the back where customers couldn't see, and I'd just be tagging clothes for eight hours a day, and then um at the end, they'd be like, Oh, you tagged enough clothes to earn this candy bar. And then when I got old enough to start thinking, where am I where's my money? Like, why can't I afford anything? Then uh about 14 years old, I asked if I could have access to my money, and they all got skittish and running around sending me around in circles, talking to this person, this person, this person, this person. And eventually found out I wasn't getting paid, and then they gave me the minimum hour back then, which was like three dollars an hour back in the day. Um, but they wouldn't let me have access to it for a while. So when I left, there was a few thousand dollars in because they don't pay me accurately. While I was in Colorado, they promised me 30% of the income that came from winterizing and and the construction we were doing, but they never paid it out. They said they had to wait until all of that stuff was over because I couldn't have a paper trail or whatever, and that was code for we don't want to pay you, basically. So didn't have a lot of money, and what I did have, they just pretended it didn't exist.

SPEAKER_05 55:26

So were you part of like the more chosen bloodline? If you if your last name's Kingston or if you have Kingston blood in you, are you more part of the chosen bloodline or I do you have to be one of Paul's kids to be like one of the best?

SPEAKER_01 55:40

I think modern, yeah, Paul's kids, but I I mean my grandfather was one of the founders, so I'm part of that bloodline. But um, Paul's family pretty much took over like a tumor.

SPEAKER_04 55:52

Yep. I feel like you can tell just how high up the bloodline is by the girls they allow the boys to marry. Yeah. You notice that? Yeah. Because there's the ones that they no matter how hard they try and work for the order and do everything for Paul that he asks, they will never be awarded a wife. And they're always just like, pray harder, you'll get one. And then eventually, if if they're lucky, they'll find one on the outside to bring in. Those are the ones that are like the lowest of the low bloodline. But then it once you get up further and further, then sometimes they'll throw a bone to the ones that are higher up the bloodline.

SPEAKER_01 56:29

Yeah, they'll they'll throw a bone to give hope to the few people that are busting their asses daily for a wife. But if you're Paul's children, there's some men that I think uh one specifically I believe is closeted gay. But and I believe Paul learned about it and he threw a bunch of wives at him, like all within a two-year time frame. He just kept throwing wives to cover up the rumors that were going around about his sexuality. And so his kids don't even have to work for wives, they just blink hard enough in his direction.

SPEAKER_04 57:00

Yeah. I used to be like mad about it, like wow, they just get awarded all these wives, da da da da. But if you think about it, you're like a teenager getting thrown all of these wives at you. That's like that doesn't even sound fun.

SPEAKER_01 57:13

And all these kids, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 57:14

Yeah, it sounds like responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 57:18

I mean, but I guess it does come with a lot of status in the order, so that's true.

SPEAKER_04 57:24

And they do walk around like they're hot shit afterwards.

SPEAKER_05 57:28

Yeah, so the hotter the wife, kind of the the higher they are in the set satellite.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

I'd say so, yeah. Paul's got some very gorgeous wives, and his kids all have pretty wives.

SPEAKER_04 57:41

That's true, yeah. Yeah, that was one of my questions when I was there. It's like interesting that this guy just seems to only have direction on the gorgeous girls of the order.

SPEAKER_01 57:50

That is cooinky dinky. And then he's the only one that can speak to God or get get the marriage rights from God, and he happens to have the most wives. Right. It's funny how that worked, though.

SPEAKER_05 58:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:04

It's the same with Warren. He's the one that had the very most.

SPEAKER_05 58:07

Yeah, my dad, he shook everybody's hand and they came, you know, the families would come, so he knew he knew every family and who was who who could come into his fam, you know.

SPEAKER_04 58:20

How do you think he did it? He just started to find an attraction to one of the girls, and then he would he would pretend that he had some kind of connection to go get that girl.

SPEAKER_05 58:28

Yeah, I mean, he didn't he didn't even have to fake that much, he just pretty much needed to be like, yeah, God told me. God told me you should marry me.

SPEAKER_01 58:38

So the entire society is groomed into believing he is the divine providence, and so anything he says is the golden word.

SPEAKER_05 58:46

That would never be a temptation from his sexuality. No way. Oh, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

Oh my god. I don't understand how a lot of those men think because I could not have multiple husbands or multiple people that I was connected to that way. I don't understand why that's appealing to them.

SPEAKER_04 59:05

Do you think it's maybe because they're not because you seem like you're pretty in tune with yourself, and when you're in a relationship, you want to actually be in that relationship. Whereas there's no way he has any connection with these 27 women. Maybe he has one that he has a somewhat closer connection with, but you can't invest that much. And that's why he can be okay with his kids living in this cold garage and his wives going with n without because he just doesn't really care.

SPEAKER_01 59:30

And they seem to have an attraction to vulnerability, they groom the girls into being vulnerable people and uneducated and sheltered. So that aspect too, they collect those vulnerable women as if they're like Barbie dolls, and then they show them all the attention like a kid showing a Barbie doll on your toy, and then put them on the shelf so they can look for more dolls, basically.

SPEAKER_04 59:50

So there's really no deep connection.

SPEAKER_05 59:52

So, did you do a lot of school growing up? Like what education did you get by the time you left?

SPEAKER_01 59:59

That's another uh facet of the um inconsistencies that I feel like I was robbed the proper education. Um, I was in outside school for the first few years, so basic public school, which I appreciate and I love those years. Uh, but then Daniel was all over the news back then in the late 90s, and so uh our polygamous group became basically like mainstream in Utah. A lot of eyes on them.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:30

For those of you who don't know, it's because Daniel Kingston basically beat the crap out of his own uh teenage daughter because she didn't want to be married to her uncle, which was Daniel's brother, and then that ended him in he didn't even go to prison.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

And the police like found her bleeding and beaten up on the side of the road. And people in the order still believe that uh a drug addict pumped her full of drugs and that she just lied about him beating. Yeah, it's a whole mess.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:55

Even though she was in Washiki, which is where he always takes the kids to there are no outsiders there, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:00

So pump her full of drugs. Yeah, it was it was very clearly him, but they still believe it.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:05

But so so because of that, you couldn't get an education?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:08

Because of that, um they were mainstream, like I said. So I would go to church, and because my last name or school, and because my last name is Kingston, my teachers would have recently watched the news, and so they'd be like, Kingston, are you related to this Daniel person? And they'd ask me questions, and since I was super young, I'd be come home and be like, Yeah, they seem to know Daniel, and that made them nervous. And I'm sure other children were doing the same thing that made them nervous. So out of nowhere, they're like, Oh, I had divine revelation, we got to start our own our own school for no apparent reason whatsoever. And so they basically threw us all into a warehouse together. Um, it wasn't a school, it was like a doctor's office with a warehouse in the back and different grades all together. Um, we're taught by sister wives that didn't have any credentials to be an educator. And so I feel like I was robbed that way, and slowly it did evolve into something. What it is now is currently it's it's a kind of a respectable school um now, but I was I was the guinea pig, me and in that uh generation were all the guinea pigs, so I feel like I was robbed of that. And then getting into junior high, I begged my hat dad to go back to public school, he let me go for one year, which was awesome, I loved it. And then um high school, he told me that I had to pay for Penn Foster, which is uh online high school program, and they put us back in a warehouse with all the high schoolers and they would help us cheat so that everybody would have high scores. It got so bad that there was an investigation from Penn Foster to investigate because everybody in that specific general area was getting 95 to 100% on every single test and getting the same answers, right? So the teachers were helping you cheat?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:56

Yeah, well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:58

So the city teacher would sit at it was just one teacher would sit at the desk, we'd all go study, and then we come back with the finished test, and she would test it, and then she would tell you which ones were wrong, and they were all like multiple choice or whatever. Basically, they gauged it anyway, so you go back and forth until it's 100%, so they can say you're not cheating, but there's no way that you'll get under 90%.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:18

Jeez.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:19

So it was robbed that way because I I I think I would have benefited a lot more from one-on-one interaction with a teacher rather than saying go sit in the corner and and play the guessing game until you get them all right.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:30

Yeah. Did you ever feel like um because of the lack of education that we got, then you're like playing catch-up out here? Like people's general knowledge of history, even. I was like, What? That happened.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:44

You probably would do it.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:45

Yeah, history's that way because the FLDS only teach their version of history.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:50

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:51

No, we were the same way. I've told you before, but they had they did have to have their syllabus in the school. Uh, to get funding, they had to have a specific syllabus, but they would receive the syllabus, and then two months prior to starting school, they would go and edit it all, and they would uh paint uh they would paste white faces over anybody in the history books that was brown or black.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:11

Really?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:11

Yeah, so like George Washington Carver, they'd turn him white and be like, he and a white person invented peanut butter. We can't tell tell our children that anybody, anything they're using is was invented by a black person, not really, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:22

Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:24

Yeah, well, even in the church, those pictures of Jesus next to all the children they edited so that the one child's not black.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:31

Really?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:32

Yeah, only Jesus only loves white kids.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:35

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:36

What about Hitler? Do you remember learning about Hitler?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:39

Uh I remember speaking to people in the group, and they their discourse around Hitler is like he's misunderstood.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:47

That's true. But I didn't know who Hitler was until I went to public school and someone was talking about Hitler, and I was like, who's that? And then everyone laughed. I'm like, I'm dead serious, you guys. Who is this? But for some reason, I I don't know why they didn't teach it, or maybe they just skipped it on accident with me. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:08

They they looked past a lot of things that they should they everything in history, they edit everything pretty well. I was the same way with Tupac though when I left my friend group. I kept hearing about Tupac, but I was too embarrassed to ever ask who he was. And then I was walking through the mall one day and saw a blanket that said Tupac in his face, and I was like, Oh, that's Tupac. And all of them busted out laughing, and then they were like texting people like Josh just said he didn't know who it was really. I didn't know anybody mainstream, and I'm like, oh my god, I'm a weirdo.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:36

Dude, I don't even know who that is.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:38

Yeah, Tupac.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:39

Yeah, see, see that you don't feel so alone. Did you know who Michael Jackson was, at least?

SPEAKER_05 1:05:43

Yeah, oh I know who Michael Jackson is. The king of pot. Yeah, you gotta know.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:48

You gotta know you know what though, there's something that I was jealous about when I first became friends with Marianne uh Marianne Barlow from I helped her leave on Escaping Fluid Me. We became best friends, and I was kind of jealous. That she got to experience all these Disney movies for the first time as an adult. That's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:07

I can see the appeal of the cool.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:09

So, what now that you've left the order, do you ever look back and are like, man, if my childhood was just normal, I would be so much farther along, or do you pretty satisfied with that?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:21

Pretty much every day I do have that run through my brain. Like I am content where I am now, but everyone's I pretty much every day it passes my brain that damn, if I wasn't robbed of the education, even if I was giving a standard public education, I would be so much further in life. I absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:38

Or if I had the social, if social structure that a proper education would have built, I wouldn't have been so awkward in my teen years or like socially strange. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:47

Well, it's like this is the thing I felt when I first left is that the average person, and I'm sure this isn't correct for everyone, but I felt like the average person got this starting line and we got all the way back here. And we're just running to try to like keep up with them.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:04

But there is a positive because I do find that there were some things that we did learn that the average person didn't, like a hard work ethic. We we always knew how to take care of ourselves because no one else was gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:17

Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think another silver lining or a positive is that um the general public is taught a lot of propaganda in history, some of it's whitewashed or whatever. And so as an adult, I listen to podcasts and I get to see that side of it that we were supposed to be taught as a child, that's supposed to be ingrained and manipulate and brainwash us. And then I can listen to podcasts to tell the true story or watch drunk history if I'm feeling like being entertained by the history and they tell the actual truth of it. And I'm like, for me to be learning of it firsthand as an adult, I do appreciate that more than being lied to as a child.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:51

Yeah, the skill of what is it called? Discernment? Is that what it is? Is that the wrong word? Discernment.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:58

That's something my dad would say.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:59

Oh, skill of discernment.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:01

Well, it's a good it's a good skill to have.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:04

I'm trying to say, like how we were talking on one of our podcasts about how it's easier to point out the cults now now that you've been in a cult, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:08:12

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:12

To see the red flags because they're so familiar.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:15

Yeah, everything looks like a cult. To me, pretty much all politics looks like a cult, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:22

It is.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:23

Yeah, it's hard not to see a cult in everything. There's kind of a paranoia aspect to it, too. I'm like, maybe I'm blowing it up in my mind as a cult when it's probably a little bit normal.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:35

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:37

Mormons knocking on the door every day. I'm like, that looks really culty. You're wearing the same outfit. You guys slept in the same room, woke up, and put the same clothes on, and you're just like mirroring each other to knock on doors. That feels cultish to me.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:49

Dude, I can't believe how many times those guys have come to this apartment. I've had those guys this apartment like 10 times by now.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:56

Have you ever invited him in?

SPEAKER_05 1:08:58

Yeah, I was doing a live stream with my sister, and I invited him in on the live stream.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:03

What did they say?

SPEAKER_05 1:09:04

You're an opportunist. Yeah, I was an opportunist. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:09

And they're okay with you on camera?

SPEAKER_05 1:09:10

Uh I told them we were we were live and uh told them who our dad was and stuff. So nice. What did they have to say about it? Um, one of them had this pamphlet they wanted to leave with me. And there was kind of this funny moment where I asked one of them, he was trying to give me this pamphlet, and I says, Well, if you have an extra one for my dad.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:36

Yeah. They were probably, I mean, being from a group that was start founded in polygamy, they were probably thinking in their minds, you come from good stock. I've literally been told that by people that learn my last name. Like, you come from good stock.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:46

What?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:47

Yeah. Like it's a good thing to be in a it's usually very MAGA centric people. They're like, You come from good stock. You're your parents, your dads have the absolute dream for men. Get to collect women.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:59

Yeah, I've had a lot of state presidents and bishops and uh uh church authorities take a lot of interest in me. Yeah. Like, hey.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:09

You would definitely be an asset to them. I can see that absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:12

An asset?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:13

Yeah, because it's foundation, we would too. Our foundation, if we just zoned back into that mindset.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:19

You just go right back to being the zombie. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:23

I mean, they they train us to brainwash us. We're groomed daily to do exactly what this specific cult needs. So if we could just zone back into that.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:31

Yeah, do you find that based on based on that, like how it was just so ingrained in us to be brainwashed, to be to be this robot that wants to be told what to do? When you left, did you find that your next relationship or the people that you're around, you you attracted or were attracted to people that were gonna kind of like drag you around and tell you what to do?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:53

I have never felt a desire to submit to anybody um after I left, but uh my my dating life was affected in the aspect that um I felt like I was so un inexperienced in dating that I told myself with my first relationship. I was like beforehand, I set it in my mind. I was like, I'm going to ignore every red flag because I'm probably prejudiced based on my background and I I'm probably looking for way too many problems because of my experience, so I'm just going to ignore all the red flags for the first relationship and try to work through everything because I thought it would make me a better person. And the person I ended up dating was the most gigantic piece of shit on the planet.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:39

Damn.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:40

He was garbage human being, and I knew it, but I ignored those red flags because I set myself up because I thought that I had a mindset that would project things that you're like they weren't there.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:50

Escaping, escape the order. Now you escape this this relationship. You're like, check that off the list. How long was it?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:57

It was a couple years.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:59

Yeah. Yeah. Similar thing where well I didn't I didn't know that it was toxic though. I was just like, oh yay, somebody to can to tell me what to do. Not thinking I was consciously doing that, but it was like felt safer to have this patriarchal thing because that was what I was comfortable with.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:17

I can tell it wasn't. Well, how was your social life after you left? Like right after you left.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:24

Everybody I met, I kept being called a blank slate.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:28

Uh-huh. Yeah. That makes sense to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:30

And the one of the more offensive ones they would call me is they'd I'd eventually I would ultimately people that I would associate with long term, I would eventually tell them where I came from so they'd have an understanding of my social behaviors or whatever. And um, yeah, they would call me blank slate. They would think, oh, that's so cool. They have a ton of questions, but then on top of that, so many of them were like, Oh, so you're a lost boy. And that one really offended me. I never understood that. I'm like, I'm not lost, like, I figured my shit out and got the fuck out of it. I was lost. Like, yeah, but that's just what they call that.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:08

Lost boys, the ones that kind of got pushed out.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:10

Yeah, so I was called a lost boy. Well, I I had never heard of it until I left, but after I left, everybody was calling me a lost boy. I was like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Like, that's bad, like that's offensive.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:19

And you're projecting it onto me when I'm finding myself.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:22

Yeah. I kind of felt like people treat me that way, like I'm but I probably am that way. Well, I'm getting better, but you know, I I'm kind of a blank slate. I wonder why people don't click with me or talk to me, and then I find I figure out, oh, because you didn't say a fucking thing. Or you just couldn't you didn't have any personality.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:45

Oh, you're saying about yourself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:47

Oh, you weren't proactive, and it's hard to do that. That's kind of what you learn. It's a whole new world when you're outside of a polygamous group after growing up. Yeah, the completely different way of interacting with people.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:57

Yeah, and learning how to connect to because because the the things that we had to survive in our groups was not really how how you connect to people out here. And what I've learned is when I I'm opening up to someone and I can be deep and vulnerable with them, I'm bonding with them. And then also if they feel safe enough to do that with me, it creates that bond, right? Rather than just listening to them or me just telling them my life story.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:20

So if you want to force yourself to take mushrooms with strangers, then you're probably normal. No, that's what that's what broke me. I was super, super awkward, even with the people I worked at the diner. They they invited me to a party, and I would just sit in the corner, like, what the hell am I doing here? And then they passed me some drogas.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:42

Drogas?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:43

And it was all uphill from there. I don't do that anymore, but I I do appreciate those few years that I that helped open me up, which was nice. It was therapeutic.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:53

Have you ever done ketamine?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:55

No, but my therapist said I should.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:58

It's nice. Cut that part out. What why that I did ketamine?

SPEAKER_05 1:15:03

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:04

I mean it's it was prescription, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:15:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:08

Well, isn't it good?

SPEAKER_04 1:15:09

Good to try or it only lasted like 30 minutes, but it's it's like allows you to just get really deep and vulnerable.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:17

Like, I feel like I already can somewhat do that, depending on the topics, but you're not the walls just come down and you can just be but they require you if you're doing it um legally, they require you to do it in a controlled environment. So you do have to be in a medical facility with people observing you.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:36

It probably kills the vibes a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:38

Which one of my therapists told me, I want to put you on academy, and I feel like it would do this and this and this. I was like, fuck yeah, and then she's like, but this is how you have to do it. And I'm like, oh no, no, thanks.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:46

Could you at least do it like with your husband so you could have that experience together to bond?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:51

That might be good. That might be therapeutic.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:53

Because alone it would probably feel unless they're guiding you, but it would feel like a test.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:58

Like you're just no, I was still kind of open to it, but it was just like when she said that, I was like, maybe not, but um she said there's I also have to have been taking different medications beforehand and things, so it's kind of a process.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:14

So you feel like you've made a lot of progress to being pretty normal now? I mean, I guess I shall never say normal, you know, because I I mean, personally, I don't think I'll ever be like normal in the sense that I fit into the everybody's social world.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:30

I like your quirks, Jets.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:32

Thank you. I like you.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:34

No, I do pride myself on being a little bit abnormal. So instead of um years ago when I first left being super insecure about being abnormal, now I'm like, it is a part of who I am. So the the best route we can take is just to kind of accept it and be okay with being abnormal.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:53

Everybody comes from a weird background, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:55

We all have our quirks, no such thing as normal, and to be able to just embrace who it is that you are and the genuine person that you except Sam Bateman.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:03

Fuck that guy.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:03

Oh, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:05

He's he's the exception.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:08

Yeah, well, he's a cult leader at the end of the day, so I don't know how he got that position.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:14

He is unqualified.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:16

Well, he just had the perfect victims, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:18

He had that level of charisma and he did not have any of that.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:21

He didn't, yeah, like even you could see it through the screen. It was like, what the he he even seemed unsure of himself at times.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:28

I think he just plopped into a position that was open that nobody else was willing to take or had the amoral mindset to take. Right. He saw he would never have been able to build himself to that position. He had to jump into it when it was opened up before him.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:40

And that's that's exactly what it is. Other people that had the opportunity didn't have the I guess, like perversions that he had, because he was already trying to marry his own daughter before that, right? That's why his wife left him.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:53

So then, of course, when he sees that position that he could have, then he got it. But yeah, he could never be. I said this too about Paul, in my opinion, could never have started a cult. He could to pick it up where they left off. He is not the kind of person that could find followers. Obviously, Eldon was. But I believe Eldon was very charismatic.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:15

Oh, yeah, you could tell just in his pictures.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:18

In his pictures?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:19

Like in his photos, he looked like a charismatic person, and he's always been described that way.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:23

Yeah. But supposedly Paul was in in high school, like people really was drawn to him, blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:30

He was like the president of whatever in his school class president.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:36

Who now, no? I think more than the same. Yeah. Your dad couldn't have started a call that way.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:42

Yeah. It does take a lot of get up and go that a lot of the takerovers don't seem to have.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:50

So how do you feel about your family nowadays?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:54

Uh I do love and respect them. The people that I do still talk to, I it's it's kind of a process of trying to find a middle ground where we can have a relationship and not offend one another. I I do call it a kind of a mutual disdain for each other's lifestyle. Like I see you with multiple wives and I'm like, how could you do that to women and not respect them or respect yourself enough to monogamize yourself or whatever? And then they look at me and they're like, How could you be with a dude? It's the same kind of mutual disdain. So we try to avoid those topics, but it's harder than you think. Really? It's really hard. And when I bring up my marriage, it spirals fast with a lot of people. So I try to avoid the topic altogether when I'm talking to them, so can I I can have this semi-functional relationship.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:41

Does a spiral just look like how do you live with yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:45

Like they're just shaming you or the uh the pattern seems to be that when I bring it up, it always spirals into them telling me they've learned how to respect my lifestyle, but they also want me to be aware that they know I'm going to hell still.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:01

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:03

And and like my brother has told me recently, I can almost stop talking to him, but he's told me recently that he loves me and my husband, and he wants he helps one day we separate and and redeem ourselves and find God and pray for forgiveness or whatever for ever having fallen in love in the first place. Two and two adults loving each other is a mortal sin, apparently.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:25

It's so weird. What a weird verb is too. Like, I respect you, I respect your decision to go to hell.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:30

Yeah, yeah. I've ever seen so many friends because they they tell me that exact same thing. I'm like, why is that common in people's minds? Like, if you've believed that, there's things I don't like about you too, but I keep my mouth shut about them.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:41

But like flat out, they're they're basically admitting that they know everything in your silly, silly, stupid little boys.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:48

Yeah, I tell them, Well, I believe the things you're doing is gonna send you to hell. How do you like that?

SPEAKER_04 1:20:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:53

What now do you think? It's all opinions.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:55

Yeah, it's all open. Have you seen the the the most fun argument I have now with with people who are like that? Is the the fact that it's thou shalt not kill in the Ten Commandments. But have you seen the kill count for God versus Satan in the Bible? So if you can Google it, it's basically Satan, Satan's kill count was around 10, but most of those were with the story of Job. Remember the story of Job where God was like, Yeah, you can tempt Job by killing his entire family and he'll still be faithful. So, in my opinion, it was still God's kills because he he wanted it. So Satan's kill count is 10, and I think God's kill count is in the thousands or millions. Millions, millions, yeah. And that's where we're all trying to fight to get to, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:36

God is just Satan in a mask. I think most people that believe they're going to heaven in modern society are probably the worst people. Most of them are the worst people on this planet.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:46

I think it's also similar to like if you think you're all hide mighty and I'm gonna go to heaven, uh-uh-uh, versus the ones that are like just trying their best, trying to do their best. It's similar to like parents that are like, I'm the best mom in the world, and it's usually the one that's like beating the shit out of their kids.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:00

If you're Christian because you want peace, love, and tolerance and acceptance, the things that Jesus supposedly was supposed to teach, then I can respect the hell out of you and I'll even I'll even be able to relate to you on a lot of aspects. But if you're wearing a big old cross, if you're Carolyn fucking Levit and you're praying before, and then you're getting up to defend disgusting wars and a disgusting PDF president, then you're not the Christian that you think you are, and you're probably going to hell.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:26

Yeah, Carolyn.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:27

Do you believe in heaven now?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:29

I want to. I I do uh when I'm feeling overwhelmed, I do lay in bed and push all my problems off to a higher power, and I just accept that it's going to work out, and that feels really therapeutic to me. But then I'm also like, why are you killing children in Palestine, you stupid prick? And it's just like we give a bone.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:49

So you you don't really believe in God.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:51

I want to, but I he he doesn't make it easy.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:56

Yeah, really difficult.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:58

Yeah, he either doesn't exist or he exists and he's entertained by all of the evil things going on, too entertained to intervene.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:06

Wait, what do you believe?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:08

Me?

SPEAKER_03 1:23:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:10

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:10

You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:12

Well, you know sometimes how you see these Mormon families, and everybody's looks really nice, they look really healthy, they have this nice community, they have this nice church building, um, you know, their whole family looks pretty beautiful, they're all together, they have these nice pictures on the wall. You walk into their house and they seem like they all love each other, and then you come to the rest of the world and it seems kind of dysfunctional, and it can sometimes feel like fuck. Um I think the dysfunction is fucking have that shit, you know what I'm saying? But I think at some point you realize, well, they they all are doing what they're told, they're being how they're told, and so none of them can actually be themselves, and that's why they all fit onto their fucking wall perfectly, you know. But but you you see what I mean? Like sometimes I'm like, why can't we fucking have something like that?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:16

Like, why can't we all be surrounded in wealth? No, I get what you're saying, but at the same time, I do believe the dysfunction is like honesty. I think everybody has a dysfunction. Some people are just better at hiding it, and it would be nice to be in a grand house with everybody wearing clean clothes and everything everything's perfect, but at the same time, that's all marketing, that's all a mask. Everything about Ruby Frankie, her house seemed beautiful and her life seemed amazing, and millions of people would lift their phones up and stare at her and and and uh glorifying her glorifying her, appreciate the way that she um operated her family. And on the sidelines, it turns out her and her lesbian partner therapist built a torture champ torture camp in the desert for her children.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:01

So they were dysfunctional, they just didn't show it to the public, and that's how a lot of them do it. She was never discommunicated from the Mormon church, too, which Ruby was it? No, she was not excommunicated, and the therapist also wasn't, which says a lot about because they brought in millions for the church.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:17

Wow. Oh my gosh, I did not know. Which is crazy because John Delyn was excommunicated.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:25

Which one is that?

SPEAKER_04 1:25:26

John Delyn on Mormon Stories.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:27

I haven't seen you never seen Mormon Stories? He he runs Mormon Stories podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:32

And he got excommunicated because he was digging a little too deep into the Mormon history, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:36

Oh, I might recognize him if I saw him now.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:38

Yeah. So so he gets excommunicated for that, but Ruby Frankie doesn't get excommunicated for like what the hell?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:45

She would she was dumping cayenne and honey in her son's wounds on their arms and duct taping them and like having them walk in the blazing hot deserts of Utah and cutting up with their feet. She they she he showed up at his neighbor's at their neighbor's house after he broke out of the house and he had tape all over him, and he was cut up and he was malnourished. He was a skeleton, skeletor.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:08

Well, when you said a lot of really religious people that believe they're going to heaven are some of the worst people, then I think that kind of shows what you mean. I I think a lot of LDS people don't realize that that's what they're capable of if they took their beliefs to the full conclusion. Ruby Frankie isn't some crazy person. She just believed her beliefs more than most other Mormons are willing to take them. And I think that's true about my dad too. Like he just was willing to push his beliefs more than most Mormons.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:41

And it actually doesn't feel crazy. It feels like, oh, this is just I'm just I'm just doing extra of the work, the extra credit.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:48

Some monsters are born and some people they just they evolve into monsters because they're given too much power or they're in a position where they feel like they can do things that are justified from their religion.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:59

Yeah. Do you think people like Ruby Frankie and like Daniel Kingston are just like getting off on this abuse? Like they enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:09

There's a different dynamic with Ruby. Someone needs to break down her psyche, but she's um she genuinely believed that God was telling her to do those tortuous things to her children. So because she thought they they had demons in them that needed to be expelled through pain. And I don't think she enjoyed doing it, except for the aspect of enjoying following God's teachings.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:35

No, I totally see that. I totally agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:38

Whereas Daniel, I've seen him in person, and I do think that sometimes he does get off on being abusive.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:44

And hearing the stories, like I I this memory always burning my brain of how Jessica talked about how he finally got out of jail and he went straight to Heidi's house and went straight to Jessica to give her her beating, and she was like looking at him and he was smiling. Like it was like he was finally getting his fix.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:02

Yeah, he's a twisted fuck.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:04

Sorry, sis. Sorry for talking bad about your husband, but Oh, I forgot I have a sister married. Yeah. What is it? My sister's married to Daniel.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:16

Oh.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:16

His Daniel has 14 wives. Well, now one left and one passed away.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:21

Out of respect for my sister, I very I won't very uh publicly speak about my disdain for Daniel, but it's I'm doing it more and more later.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:30

I feel like she has to also know he's like that. But he also mellowed out as he's gotten older and now he has a limp.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:36

No, that his sons are strong enough to beat the shit out of him. And he's like, oh, I'm a weak old frill frill old man.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:41

He's like, I live.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:42

I broke your leg three years ago, but now you got muscles. Lead me alone.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:46

There's just so many people in the order. But like though with that obvious, there's just there's Barlows and Jessups, and then the Barlows that married the Jessups and people in the order don't recognize me anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:56

Like they I ran into some of who was the one that ran Wash Q Renewable Energy?

SPEAKER_04 1:29:03

Uh Jacob Kingston.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:05

Jacob Kingston's kids. I met them on Marketplace because I was buying a trampoline from them, and I all I just recognized their voices as polygamists. I didn't know who they were. But then we got to talking and they had no idea that I was ever from the group. I'm like, I've really been along or away that long to where they just don't know who I am anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:22

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:23

That's weird.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:24

They recognize me and then they recognize you because we're doing this. Yeah. They're gonna recognize you more now.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:30

Probably.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:31

You do have a um well it's more of like I wouldn't say Kingston look, it's more of like Rogers family look.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:39

Oh yeah. The better when it does finally click for them, they're like, oh, are you Rogers? I'm like, yeah, that's why I look like all my sisters and my brothers.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:47

Um of that.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:49

So what do you find important nowadays if you don't really believe in God? Is it what's important in life to you?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:57

I think that I think it's a very narcissistic uh behavior in humans to believe we're important enough to have an eternity after death. I think that's very narcissistic to think that you deserve some sort of permanence in this universe when everything around you is finite and will end eventually. So I get a lot of peace out of the idea that I will be laid to eternal rest at the age of 65 or 70, perfectly fine with that. I don't need to go to an afterlife, I don't need to be around my family, let me sleep forever, and I'm not gonna be awake to care.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:32

Like, um, I I like that you can find peace in that. That always gave me anxiety. You know, you said exactly what um I was a huge fan of Jennifer, the girl from Hunger Games, Sten for Lawrence. Until I watched her, this was back when I was married, I watched her say that exact thing. She was like, humans are such narcissists to think that we're gonna live forever. Of course, humans think that. And I and I heard her say that it made me feel some type of way because I wanted to live forever.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:59

Um no offense, public mind. No, but I I don't think I've seen her say that either, so I like her more now.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:05

Yeah. And and it's an interesting topic because um we are the only creatures really that, but we're also the only creatures that can really think about and understand that there's gonna be death and what's gonna happen after that, and it's scary because we've only ever known existing.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:23

Well, people say that, and that's the argument always, but we do understand what it what it's like to not exist because there's history, Earth's history where we didn't exist.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:33

Before we were born, we didn't exist, and things were existing. And after we die, things are going to continue to exist, whereas you're not going to be existing.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:40

What about the idea though of um have you ever had a ghost experience or a spiritual experience?

SPEAKER_03 1:31:49

That you couldn't explain.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:50

I think I was hallucinating on drugs, so I don't think about that one. I don't think that one can be called ghosts. Um no, they have they have uh Hiawatha, the the polygamous group we come from order has Hiawatha, which is a ghost town, an old mining ghost town. And I have had par to paranormal-esque experiences there. Uh, we like took a picture and we saw the outline of a of a woman in white like praying and really and it was like pretty terrifying and and just weird things would happen around the house. But I I have a very rational mind, I think. So I was like, it was just very, very convenient. Lighting, maybe.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:33

Yeah, I've had experiences similar where because there was other people that witnessed it, if it was alone, I would have convinced myself I was crazy, but because other people witnessed it, my brain still can't fully understand, but it but it wants to believe that there is souls and spirits, but I also don't understand how that can exist while I'm in this existence. But I want to be able to get to a point where I am at peace, whatever the outcome is with death, I'm at peace with it. Because I get some of my panic attacks would be because of that. Like, well, what happens when we die? It's like so scary.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:08

You kind of want to live forever.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:10

Well, and because we are taught you're all narcissists.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:14

I want to live forever.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:15

I don't think that but it's because I believe it's not necessarily well, maybe it is narcissistic because we were raised by narcissists, but it's also because we we were raised that that this was the layout, right? Yeah, you have all the answers. If you do all these things, then you're gonna get celestial, telestial charges. So all these answers to your questions, then all of a sudden it's gone. It fucks your system.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:37

Yeah, it does fuck that fucked me.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:40

I mean, I think there's also I think there's peace in the fact that we all end eventually, so it's not like something has happened to me. That's if I lived in a world, for example, where Donald Trump was going to have an eternal existence, I would burn this motherfucker down. Like the peace I find is that he's gonna be gone soon, hopefully very soon, of natural causes. But if he was going to have some sort of permanence, I would freak the fuck out.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:08

Do you because sorry this is gonna shift the tone a little bit because it's not anything to do with the order, but it's a little culty topic and conspiracy. The shooting that happened was that faked Trump getting shot.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:21

There's there's been multiple. There was like 30 shots that went off at the White House itself. Like the press caught the sounds of it. It was more recent. But the I think the one you're talking about is at the where nicked his ear. Oh, he's had a lot of those.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:36

What?

SPEAKER_01 1:34:36

Because the correspondence dinner, not the hit his ear, the correspondence dinner was the most recent. So I assume that's what you're talking about. But that one was fake, I believe. The camera, somebody caught on their phone, him running to the back corner and being protected, and then as soon as he got out of view of where he thought the the actual cameras were that were catching the whole thing that he set up, he stops, he stands up, and he turns around and he starts watching everything happen. He's freaked out, and then you see him turn around. And someone released that, and then news press asked him about it, and he's like, Oh yeah, I wanted to see if there was anything I could do to help. I was like, dude, I have literally watched somebody have a heart attack behind you, and you acted like they were a massive inconvenience to you. You didn't lift a finger.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:14

You fat buck.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:15

You don't care.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:16

Yeah. Such a pain in the ass. And so I think all of his shootings, conveniently timing as they are, I think there's a lot to be said about faking it, setting it up.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:28

Now we need a secure ballroom because the president.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:32

Yeah, because there's benefits that they get afterwards. So so convenient, yeah. Yeah, I had a similar opinion. Do you watch a lot of that stuff or you just kind of stay out of politics?

SPEAKER_05 1:35:42

I I haven't been near as involved, but that one with his ear was definitely a big one. I definitely saw that. Oh yeah. Yeah, that was a big one.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:51

That was interesting.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:53

The the recent ones have been uh pretty weird, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:01

That thing was yeah, that I mean his ear grew back in two days. He's half chameleon or else he's a liar. There's only two options. Yeah, I don't know what happened that day. And then he had the the cameras perfectly slide into position as an active shooter, like the no noises, and people catch us on camera, they act like there's not cameras in everybody's pockets. But his his own camera staff slide up to the front and they're lowering the flag to the perfect position to take a picture of him with blood dripping out of his ear when there's somebody actively shooting, if it's an emergency like that. And then he stands up to cheer when they don't know how many people could possibly potentially be trying to assassinate him. Just like, yeah, America!

SPEAKER_03 1:36:40

Yeah, that was weird as hell.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:42

Like, yeah, and then he is the most vain person on the face of the earth, but he shuts down the investigation and he doesn't talk about it anymore.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:49

Where well, yeah, because he's president now. He he could investigate that harder.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:56

You know, I don't even know the shooter's name.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:58

You know, it's giving Paul Kingston when his own child died, and he's like, No, no, you guys are just trying to prosecute us for living polygamy. Lay it to rest. It's like it's your get your child. Yeah, you gotta suffer so much. Guilty. Michelle talked about that, right? On baby dying. Yeah, a crazy story.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:19

Dan Kingston basically killed killed a kid.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:23

No, Jesse, her dad.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:24

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:25

Jesse Kingston.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:26

I think Daniel's responsible for a lot of but but he did he he did uh like hit a two-year-old or something.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:33

Dan? Daniel?

SPEAKER_05 1:37:34

Yeah, didn't he?

SPEAKER_04 1:37:36

I'm sure many, yeah. I'm sure so many.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:38

It wasn't his kid.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:39

It was someone else's.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:41

Yeah. Well Jesse.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:43

Because Andrew was telling me his mom went to jail for it.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:47

Oh, Patricia went to jail for something similar? Where so she took the fall for Daniel beating up a kid? Because Patricia did daycare, I'm pretty sure, right? And so maybe same story. Yeah, I mean, I believe that. Because it's just happened so much there. And like it's so common for the men to be like, I don't want to take the fall. Anybody else? Okay, you. Even if it's their own wife, their own kids, they don't care. And that's why I believe Jacob Kingston went to prison for that biodiesel fraud. They were letting Jacob Kingston do all of that. They were benefiting from all the money, but they were and they were happy that his name was on it because they knew he was gonna go down. Oh yeah. Yeah, and then he did. So very common practice.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:26

How much $500 million of fraud? Half a billion.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:29

Half a billion. Yeah, that's $500 million, right? I think so.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:34

Yeah, that is a lot of money. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:37

I don't know how they thought they could get away with it. Fucking morons.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:40

Yeah, well, I think that I I believe Daniel and them didn't think that he would. And but they were just trying to siphon as much as they could until they knew he the inevitable was gonna happen. Maybe they didn't know that Rachel was gonna go to Daniel's wife, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:38:57

They are his wife and she was the one orchestrating all the way, of course.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:00

She was gonna go now. Teaching them how to do all this fraud. Yeah, and then she gets cancer and I think she died in jail, didn't she?

SPEAKER_01 1:39:07

Did she? Oh, that's kind of sad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:11

Jacob's mom also went to prison for the fraud because she was teaching them how to steal all that.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:16

Oh and if she has all that know-how, what else are they doing?

SPEAKER_04 1:39:19

Right. This is the only one that we know of, right? Well, the biggest one that we know of. There's so much more going on behind closed doors.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:26

I mean, they they're cheating in high school to get the best scores. We get them into call their students into college with great GPAs when they really don't know fuck fuck shit.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:34

Yeah, and then they're taking millions in public funding for the Vanguard school that's that's supposed to be public school funding, but it's not a public school. So they're just they heard that they have something that they're paying to constantly try to find loopholes in the government to just bleed the beast and take as much money as possible.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:49

Is that investigation still ongoing with Vanguard?

SPEAKER_04 1:39:52

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:53

Because they were funneling all the public money into order businesses that were unaffiliated and just paying suspiciously high prices for basic needs.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:02

What's that called? Laundering?

SPEAKER_01 1:40:04

I think it's laundry, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:06

So it was like all they because they have to be public with where their funding is going. So this whole list is just all order businesses, a bunch of random ones. And then right back.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:14

Didn't they post somebody uh from the public in the school because their excuse was that they didn't know they weren't familiar, so they gave them the resources to learn how to do things appropriately, and they basically sh pushed them out, shouldered them, made everything uncomfortable for the stranger until they were gone?

SPEAKER_04 1:40:32

This sounds familiar, but I'm I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:34

I read an article, but I don't know the specific because they don't want public teachers there. Yeah. Because the 14-year-old high school students are pregnant.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:43

That way, yeah, yeah. Was everybody cheating like that? You know, just in life and power being such a game. Do you believe in cheating at all or cheating on your wives and husbands? No, no, just like cheating in life.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:57

Like, I mean, if you can get away with it and you don't have too many um victims, that's fine. But if you have a ton of victims in modern society with Trump is ahead, he'll he'll probably if you slip him a few dollars, he'll probably give you a pardon. So go for it.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:12

I think if you're cheating in life, a lot of the times you're cheating yourself. If you the the more genuine I've been able to be, the more it's echoed in my personal life. But yeah, I can see like how it could be tempting to just be like just just like my flawba. Just cheat my way to the top. But that's why I believe that most people at the top are narcissists because they're okay with stepping on as many people as it takes to get to the top. So the shitty thing is now everyone that's running everything is narcissists.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:41

I do think there, I do believe that there is accountability coming for anybody who does significant fraud or uh cheating like that. I do think I have faith in our country enough to know that it's super super slow progress, but eventually everybody will get their come up ins. And it might not be soon enough because uh Trump is 80, so he might die before he's be been held accountable. But if he, as a Christian, if there is an afterlife, he's going to hell and he'll be held accountable anyway. So fuck it.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:12

Well, that's what I would hope so. I thought you didn't believe in an afterlife.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:15

I said if.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:16

Narcissist.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:17

I step in Trump's shoes. I am a narcissist.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:23

I am, I must be too.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:25

I think we all have, so there's like 12 traits that if you have all of them, you're definitely a narcissist. I think we all have at least, if we're being honest with ourselves, we have at least two or three that we struggle with.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:35

I ain't taking that test.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:38

I think I did, and I didn't like the results. Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:41

Because you were more narcissistic than you wanted to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:43

It was years ago, but a buddy had me take it. I think he was he felt very strongly that I didn't take it when I when I first left. When I first left the group. Because I was a huge, I was a massive dick when I left. Like I was I was closeted, so there was that aspect of like hating myself because I was closeted and wasn't open to anything. So I was very short-tempered, blunt, I was very rude. Like I would offend, I would actively offend people, and it wasn't like I was trying to, it just was my personality at the time.

unknown 1:43:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:13

So he's like, take this test. And yeah, eventually I came out of the closet, and now I'm only I can tune back into that when I need to. I'm only an ass when I I need to be.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:23

Is it usually like the bully the bully before you get bullied? Or what yeah, you tap into that.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:28

Well, isn't there healthy there's healthy narcissism, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:43:31

Some people say that that's interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:34

Yeah, like like you can't be too willing to be run over. You got you gotta like stand up for yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:40

You can't always be submissive or yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:44

Yeah. And I have heard this topic of like to be able to tap into a little bit of the arrogance so that you can go follow your dreams more rather than being like, I could never do anything. If you can't genuinely believe that you can, then tap into the delusion for a little bit so that you can go chase your dreams, that you the normal you would be like, I can't, I'm I'm unworthy, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:06

I see that.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:08

But it tapped in and out.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:09

I think if you're able to be, if I never thought of the concept before you brought it up, but if you were able to be a healthy narcissist, I think that it if it was productive and and you didn't have any victims of your narcissism, if you were like predictive uh protective, productive, and nobody got hurt.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:28

Oh yeah, that's what a a therapist told me that.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:30

Oh really? Yeah, you've gone to therapy last time.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:33

I hate the word therapy. You know, it feels embarrassing.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:36

Does it trigger you?

SPEAKER_05 1:44:38

Yeah, it feels embarrassing. What's a but what's another word? Counselor.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:42

You'd rather counselor?

SPEAKER_05 1:44:43

I don't know. How long have you been? Feels less embarrassing. Counselor? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:48

You got your head shrunk. Yeah. How did you like it? How long did you take therapy?

SPEAKER_05 1:44:54

Oh, that was just one session.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:56

But it helps.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:59

Oh. You got a little taste.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:03

In that one session, they said something about healthy narcissists.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:06

Yeah. I was like, okay. They're like, you're a straight up sociopath. I don't need to, we don't need to continue.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:12

Case closed.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:14

I can't help you.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:15

Was it through holding our health?

SPEAKER_05 1:45:18

Oh no. Oh. No, it's just a local, local one here.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:22

And it turned you off? You were like, nope.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:24

I loved my therapy. It was like a year of a decent amount of therapy. Like the the most aggravating part was that it was the same day every week. And so I just knew the day prior I had to like evaluate something from my past that really upset me, and I had to let myself dive into it so that I'd have something to talk about in therapy the next day, and that got exhausting.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:47

But yeah, you're emotionally going there.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:49

Yeah, I got tired of complaining and bitching about things that were in the past. And I think that was kind of the point for me to realize that I needed to stop complaining about a spanking that happened 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:01

Yeah. So what do you think should happen to the order nowadays? Like to Paul and everybody.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:08

I think the fact that we are keeping a light on it is keeping them holding themselves a little bit more accountable so it's not nearly as negative. I would love for them to be dissolved and for all of them to find a functional um way to be. I don't mind them being polygamist as long as the women are also able to seek out love when the when the man's a little piece of shit. But um realistically, I do think they are going to continue to exist. They're probably gonna be the next Mormons, and they're going to be the Mormons that were able to stay polygamist. Because the Mormons only quit polygamy because the state threatened to stop funding them.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:46

Yeah. Well, in order for Utah to become a state, right, they have to denounce it. Right. But um you so you think they're gonna keep growing?

SPEAKER_01 1:46:55

I mean, they'd have to. They're in the thousands now.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:58

They're over 10,000 at least, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:47:00

And the worst things that they've done are all in the past. So as far as I know. I mean, they've done a lot of things that would get people cancelled and they're not canceled.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:08

They're still currently doing underage child marriages to uncles forcing incests. Well, it's not necessarily in the past.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:14

I do I do believe that they're a cancer, but I I believe they're like a tumor that if you try to rip it out, the host will die, basically type thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:24

Like if if if so, because my brain is like if we get rid of Paul and like let's say somehow they all go to prison, then the next leaders would just come up and it would just keep going. So, how do you rip out the tumor?

SPEAKER_01 1:47:37

I mean, we have to let the tumor I think taking the tumor out would kill the host. They're just too what I mean is they're too ingrained into society right now. Um the Utah economy is boosted. I I mean highly reliant, yeah. Wow, they're worth hundreds of hundreds of millions of dollars. And also they've got they have lobbyists fighting for their cause, and they have I mean, they have all the things that um corrupt people are able to obtain, so they aren't brought down. They have all those protections, they have a corporation that um builds weapons, like designer weapons, or what's what's the word? Desert experimental weapons and things. Like they're they're set for life. If shit goes down, they're set. Like, I don't see any world in which they're brought down, or else it would have happened. Um, in the documentary that talked about his uh the pygmus leaders' wives in hiding, they s they mentioned that they only stopped pursuing those warrants because they expired, and I believed him at that point, but then I did the research, and the judge has to retract DNA warrants, they don't just expire. So something convinced that judge and the district attorney to just give up on pursuing any charges for Paul. The bribe, you think? Ah, he's in the pockets, I believe. Like that's a very fair assessment.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:58

Yeah, I totally believe that. That's how you play the game.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:02

I mean, yeah. More power to you as long as you stop fucking teenagers, I guess.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:09

What do you think about relationships that are polygamous type relationships outside of cults?

SPEAKER_03 1:49:17

And like, do you think those work out or like yeah?

SPEAKER_00 1:49:24

Wait, say that again?

SPEAKER_05 1:49:25

What I'm just wondering what you think about polygamous or uh other odd relationship situations outside of like the polygamous or or the cults.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:37

So it'd strip religion away from it. There's this this family that just wants to be, I guess, polygamous. What about polyamory?

SPEAKER_01 1:49:44

That's what I was going to say.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:46

Yeah, I think polyamory seems more even. Polygamy, I can't even picture a polygamous family that's not rooted in uh religion.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:55

Yeah, I was going to say polyamory. I'm it might sound super picky. Me to say, but I'm I'm a firm believer in equal between partners. So if if you're expecting your partner to stay loyal to you, you should be loyal to them. But polyamory is this exception where it's I've I have dipped my toe in, it's not for me, but I also respect anybody who wants polyamory because the woman can also seek out things she's missing in the relationship. So there is a I think there's a healthy aspect to it, much more healthy than the man possessing the woman and also wanting to both possess more women. So as long as there's no victims and everybody has freedom and there's no uh societal guilt or pressure, I think you can live whatever life you want.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:43

I've been thinking a lot about this, but you know when two people are married and then let's say one of the people in the marriage gets really like into another person. Like in their feelings. Like they're just they're just really fucking into this other person. Is it is it evil to like fuck that other person because uh because you were being loyal to the other to to your partner? Or is it evil like like what actually makes it evil? What actually makes it wrong? I don't think is it tradition? Is it just our just because we we we are narcissist and have to make sure we to possess the other person or is it genuine like the best way?

SPEAKER_04 1:51:39

I think that if a person yeah, I don't know that everyone's monogamous. I think that some people thrive in monogamy and some people would rather polyandry, or some people shouldn't even have relationships because they kind of have a relationship with themselves. But I think that the You talking about me?

SPEAKER_05 1:51:53

I'm just joking. Are you having a relationship with yourself?

SPEAKER_04 1:51:59

Um But I do believe that for me, if the person if if you and your partner are just honest with each other and you're able to because the the part that that feels wrong is the the dishonesty and the disloyalty. But if there's a conversation, if you're on the same page with your partner all the time, it's never gonna feel like there's this betrayal, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:52:23

But I think it's I think it's fair to allow people to make mistakes in their 20s and and and accept that they're going to make mist mistakes in relationship. I do think it's very immature if you're like 30 or 40 and you're married and you want to pursue other people without some sort of arrangement or discourse with with your partner. There has to be an agreement for it to be not evil of how you put it. But if your wife is sitting at home taking care of your children and you're off fucking the your secretary, then there's probably something a little immoral about that. Tell your wife about it. If she doesn't like it, get a divorce, if she's okay with it, then you can continue doing it and everybody wins.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:01

Right. It's the betrayal part, really.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:05

I mean, in my marriage, I'll I'll allow we've talked about it, and I and we don't pursue it very often, but I I tell my husband if you genuinely feel like you would be happier and healthier if you just went and sewed some ounce for a while, go ahead and do it. Like just stay safe.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:19

Yeah, and we were just talking about that. The the option to explore creates this where you don't want to explore because you don't feel confined to this strict relationship.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:30

You want you want what you can't have and you want something a little bit. I think all humans want a little bit of toxicity in their life as as much as we denounce it, but when you allow it in your relationship, this like as soon as we started, I used to be monogamous with him and there was jealousy and discomfort, but as soon as we opened up that side of things, we neither of us ever feel the desire to, and if you did, I really wouldn't care.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:50

So yeah, well, I see this so much where people get hooked on somebody else and they go years just dying.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:00

Wait, so like they're married and they're just like obsessed with someone that's not their wife?

SPEAKER_05 1:54:04

Yeah. Or or the other way, and you know, it's just like how how long does that have to happen? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:13

We're still stuck to the boomer tendencies where we expect um the only way to respect a married couple is if they commit to each other forever. We still have a little bit of that grasp, but we're becoming more modern where that doesn't have to exist anymore. Like if you're if you're sick in your relationship, right? Walk away from it.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:31

Yeah, and who cares? There's no like obligation to die in this marriage. But based on what you're just saying, that scenario, I guarantee, because I've seen this a lot where the guy's obsessed with that girl, right? And he's like, Oh, my bitch wife's in the way. Then they get a divorce and they get to have that dream girl, but it was only a dream girl because it was beyond reach. Yes. And now that they're together, they don't they're not compatible.

SPEAKER_05 1:54:54

Yeah, it happens again. Now we want somebody else.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:58

You want the fantasy, but once you have the reality, it's not that great.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:01

That's true. And I guess that's the part that maybe committing to somebody and understanding that is might be the best thing, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:09

Yeah, understanding that part of life and and also not wanting to possess and control your partner, understanding that you're both human, you're both them being attracted to someone else isn't something to do with you, you know. But we attach ourselves so much to our partners, like, don't look at them! Like it now, it's a problem that I'm having. Yeah, I I am now ugly because she is pretty.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:31

Yeah, but like the the stories we hear about Mormon swinging and stuff, the the reason why those kind of things happen, I think, is because they are just they have been so faithful all their lives and they're fucking tired of it. Oh, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:47

And they're teens, half of them, when they're getting married and pregnant, all these responsibilities on them, they they never got to explore anything.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:53

Yeah. If if you're a teen, uh you know, 18 and you get married to a a husband that's 18, and then now you're 27 and you have a couple kids, and the only thing you can do is fuck your best friend's husband or whatever, and let and then you know, swing, then fuck.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:17

Then go for it. I actually I have a lot more respect for those type of couples that'll go out and swing and let themselves sew some. Much more respect than than the couple who's 90 years old and resenting each other and still wears their 90s to bed and won't touch each other. Yeah. Like go fuck your neighbor, just make make it mutual between everybody. Like you're good.

SPEAKER_05 1:56:38

Yeah. That's that's hilarious. Well, did we miss anything important that you felt like we needed to talk about?

SPEAKER_01 1:56:48

Or um, I think we did cover uh a lot of it. Do you have any more questions?

SPEAKER_05 1:56:54

Or any stories that part of your life stories that you felt like we skipped out we skipped over.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:00

Well, that's the fun thing about podcasts, and I need to get more into mine. There's a lot to talk about, so we didn't necessarily miss anything, we just covered portion.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:09

Yeah, you need to get that like leave the link down below for Life Out of Order, and you're gonna be coming out with more videos, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:57:17

Yes, I've been doing TikToks, but I'm gonna commit to doing more YouTube videos.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:23

Yeah. Well, Amanda, do you have any more questions or thoughts about this whole situation?

SPEAKER_03 1:57:29

To bear my testimony.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:32

I think that we covered most of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:34

When did when did you leave your situation?

SPEAKER_05 1:57:37

Oh god, I've only been gone for real for like three, three, four years.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:41

Oh, because you're still a blank slate. I wasn't gonna say anything, but it's like he's all a little bit misinformed. Misinformed about like the society, like that's fair. Yeah. No, I uh mostly I mean that I recognize myself and you, but it's I thought you were gone for about the same amount of time. So I was like, you should have been over that by now, but yeah, we'll give you a year or two. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:04

You're able to jump into this though that quick afterwards is I mean, it's hard, but you're you're ballsy to be able to do that. So many people like want to kind of pretend it never happened for a while, just but just go living their life over here, pretending they were never traumatized, but you're like jumping right into it. That is cool. Might be why you get some panic attacks here and there, because it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:27

I wouldn't have been able to do that when I left. I didn't want to talk about it. So that is really cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:32

Pat yourself on the back for that.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:34

Thank you. Thank you for the pat on the back. I need that.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:38

So when did you how old were you when you decided that you didn't want to have multiple wives, or do you still have multiple women?

SPEAKER_05 1:58:44

Oh, I I I wondered if I was ever gonna have any wife, you know, because my dad was in prison, you know, and and nobody could get married. So I was like, well, might never get married.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:57

And you were completely committed to adhering to that when you said that? Really?

SPEAKER_05 1:59:01

I mean, I have a brother that's almost 40, and he's never had sex. He's a fucking virgin. So there's a fucking virgin.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:08

There's no part of you at all that thought that that was an unrealistic request of him to give you not to be married ever.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:15

Well, you know, the story of Isaac in the Bible, Isaac, Isaac of old, you know, how he waited till he was like 40 or whatever. That's a big story in the FLDS.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:25

Really?

SPEAKER_05 1:59:25

Yeah, he waited till he was like 40 or something to get married. He was a fucking virgin or whatever. That is fascinating. That's my that's my brother, though. He fucking hasn't even looked at a fucking girl.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:37

And he's okay with that.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:38

Yeah, if I made a joke about some girl's ass or something, he would be so dang uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:44

What do you still think it'd be a sin for you to get married? Like you're not father following your father's face.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:51

Oh, no way. Oh no, okay. Oh, I've had, you know, I guess you could you could say I'm definitely not a virgin anymore.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:00

You could say pretty much I'm definitely not a virgin anymore.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:02

I got it. I got it. I have a brother who has a kid, and we were joking the other day, like, nah, he's still a virgin. He's definitely still a virgin because he he he found this one girl and they had a kid, but he's still a fucking virgin.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:25

They did artificial insemination or something.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:27

Well, it's just like they they don't know how to do a relationship, really.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:34

What percentage of your immediate family is still a part of the group?

SPEAKER_05 2:00:39

You mean my dad's family were in Jess's family? God, I want to say like out of his 79 wives, a good 30 have left. The rest are still there.

SPEAKER_01 2:00:53

Have any of them I've heard rumors that that some of them joined the Kingston group. Is that true?

SPEAKER_04 2:00:58

Yeah. One of Sam Bateman's wives, after he went to prison, she's marrying into the order. Did you hear that?

SPEAKER_01 2:01:06

I didn't. Well, I want to thank you for diluting the bloodline a little bit. Yeah. That's fascinating. Yeah, and I think they accumulate wives from multiple different groups. It's almost like they're waiting for all the other groups to falter so they can scavenge the wives or whatever.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:24

Yeah, take them over. I mean, why else would they have bought your guys' compound?

unknown 2:01:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:31

And they'll take the men in too that need it badly, but they'll won't it's kind of like a weird environment that they won't give them wives, but they give them the presents they're gonna give them wives because your sister's gonna be mine, type of thing.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:44

Yeah, like Tom Green was able to join because he had so many women that were coming in with him. And then as soon as he dies, all of his wives are married, all of the gay all the girls are getting married, none of the boys got married. That's the dynamic.

SPEAKER_05 2:01:58

Yeah, that's interesting about the Kingston Sewers, they're still letting people join. If if it really works out for them, they'll let somebody join.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:06

But not FLDS?

SPEAKER_05 2:02:07

No, not really. Like it was really hard to join the FLDS if you're on the outside.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:13

Well, they're literally sending people out to get you to join the Mormons. Everybody has a different kind of um way to get people.

SPEAKER_04 2:02:22

Yeah, I used to think the AUB was gonna be the biggest pilgrimage group because they still did missionary stuff. Like that's where they had people moving from England to be a part of this group. But they're seeming smaller and smaller now, they're kind of dwindling. That's Body Brown's group.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:37

Harder and harder for missionaries to take people in because we have so much information available to us now that we're like cult. Yeah, Joseph Smith slept slept with a 14-year-old, and he said it's because an angel came down with a sword and threatened him. Like, that's a little bit suspicious. Yeah. Do you not think?

SPEAKER_04 2:02:55

Well, that's why they don't share that story anymore.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:57

And then his wife caught him and he's like, Oh no, it wasn't me. Like accountability is on this spiritual being.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:02

I didn't even want to do it. They made me.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:06

It was an obligation. Yeah, you wanted that 14-year-old. Yeah. Set him down. But it's getting it's getting harder and harder that for them to collect people because we have that information, so access to that information, and it's just easier for us to shut them down now that we know your foundation is cracked.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:23

Right. You have Wikipedia too, where if someone were to like look up the order or like all of this stuff that's public about it, even the AUB, like you, you have so much knowledge of history now as it's happening. So why would you join?

SPEAKER_01 2:03:36

Yeah, when missionaries knock on my door, I tell them uh I tell them no offense, but I came from a polygamous group, so we're like pre-dating you, and also we don't get along like our two groups. So it's like, so we're kind of we're not gonna get along. I'm sorry. I'm not gonna be rude, but I'm like, okay, bye.

SPEAKER_05 2:03:55

Yeah. Well, I'm gonna invite if they come again, I'm gonna invite them in on the podcast and I'm down.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:03

Yeah, that's awesome. I would watch that.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:05

What would your main what would your top questions be?

SPEAKER_05 2:04:08

I think I would start nice and then just be like, Well, what do you guys think about Joseph Smith marrying a 14-year-old?

SPEAKER_01 2:04:15

Yeah, hell yeah. That's how you do it. Yeah, you give them something sweet and then poison them.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:21

I asked the missionaries, like, well, I just don't know about Joseph Smith having multiple wives, and they were like, he didn't do that. And I was like, Yeah, he did. And they were arguing with me. And I was like, go on lds.org, your own website. And I showed them where it was at. Like, why are you a missionary if you don't even know the stuff? Get out. Yeah, scram.

SPEAKER_05 2:04:40

You know more than they do. Like teaching them. I know, I know more, I know more than most of the president of the states I've talked to. Yeah, yeah. Like I know history a lot better than a lot of the president of the stakes or bishops, even. They're like, what? I'm like, yeah, you didn't know that. Fuck you.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:59

Fuck you. Isn't it insane that they want they they want to get rid of the name Mormon now and they want us to be called FLDS because there's such a negative connotation to the word Mormon, but it's like you'd established that. Right. You don't get to change your name, the disease follows you.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:13

The Book of Mormon. That was them.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:16

And now they're offended when people call them Mormons. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:19

But then they're suing John Delyn for using in his podcast as Mormon stories. So they're suing him to try to shut him up. I wonder if they're gonna sue Secret Lives of Mormon Wives for the same reason.

SPEAKER_05 2:05:28

Really? Well, aren't those girls Mormon? Yeah, they are they're Mormons.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:33

But but suing the name because they copyrighted it? So that's the contradiction. You copyrighted the name, it's your name, but then when people call you Mormons, you get offended.

SPEAKER_05 2:05:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:43

Okay, whatever. You're just never happy.

SPEAKER_05 2:05:46

Yeah. Well, Josh, do you want to shout out your channel and I guess Amanda too?

SPEAKER_01 2:05:53

Yeah, so I have it's called a life out of order on YouTube. Um, I can't remember what my TikTok is called. Is it just Josh Kingston? I think.

SPEAKER_04 2:06:01

I'm pretty sure when you look up Josh Kingston, you pop up because that's a pretty original name.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:06

Paddle wagon, I think also.

SPEAKER_04 2:06:08

Paddle wagon?

SPEAKER_01 2:06:09

I think so, yeah. My my dad used to say, get over here, I'll paddle you a little red wagon. And so like I changed it. I'm like, he used to beat me, let's let's market it that.

SPEAKER_03 2:06:17

Um but you should make merch with that.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:19

I should. Paddle your wagon.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:06:22

Um so yeah, me and Josh have done some videos together too. So if you go to my channel or his channel, there's a collab on there if you want to watch it. I forgot my microphones though, so the sound quality is not.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:32

That was a lot of fun. Yeah, it was kind of shifty. We both need to get set up like this one.

SPEAKER_04 2:06:37

I know. I have finally have good um stuff to travel with, but I need to be able to find a ring light that I can travel with that gives good lighting too. But while I'm here, we should do a little a little update on everything.

unknown 2:06:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:06:50

And I want to see your kitty cats. He has Sphinx cats, you know, like the naked cats?

SPEAKER_01 2:06:54

The hairless ones. Or don't.

SPEAKER_04 2:06:56

They're so cute.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:57

You don't know what they are? Yeah, they don't have any hair. They look like naked mole rats, but they're gigantic.

SPEAKER_05 2:07:02

Oh, dang.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:03

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 2:07:04

Okay.

unknown 2:07:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:07:06

Cool. Well, guess if you don't have anything else to say, you have any final words for us?

SPEAKER_01 2:07:12

I think that uh it'd be cool like in a few months down the line to do this again, but you come on my channel and I want to interview you. Sure. I'm gonna lay into you.

SPEAKER_05 2:07:20

Okay. I'll I'll be preparing for it.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:24

Because that's a that's a fascinating sub.

SPEAKER_05 2:07:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:07:27

So stay tuned, guys. Yeah, a Kingston and a Jeff's.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:07:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:33

Versus.

SPEAKER_05 2:07:34

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 2:07:35

That'd be cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:07:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:07:36

All right. Okay. Thanks, everybody. Thanks for subscribe. Uh go follow Josh and Amanda on their channels, and we'll see you guys next time.

SPEAKER_04 2:07:46

Thanks for watching. Bye.