Episode 68 | How Mormon Purity Culture Kept Her a Virgin Until Her 30s | Madison Sparkles

Ex-Mormon Madison Sparkles on Purity Culture, Temple Anxiety, Mental Health & Leaving the LDS Church | Jaden Jeffs Podcast

On the Jaden Jeffs Podcast, ex-Mormon writer Madison Sparkles (Substack: Confessions of a 30-Year-Old Virgin) discusses growing up devout LDS in Iowa after moving from Utah, strict modesty and chastity expectations, bishop worthiness interviews, confusion around coffee vs. caffeine, and the pressures of Mormon dating and singleness. She describes serving as a temple worker, loving baptisms for the dead, but feeling intense anxiety during the endowment ceremony, including discomfort with temple clothing and symbolism. Madison recounts receiving a mission call to Daejeon, Korea, getting severely ill at the Provo MTC, coming home early with lasting stigma, and later leaving the church after worsening anxiety, depression, and scrupulosity, plus learning about the second anointing, LGBTQ issues, and troubling church history. She shares post-exit backlash, the fear of members wanting ex-members to fail, and her message to stop “shrinking.”

01:07 Podcast Introductions 02:28 Growing Up Mormon Iowa 04:46 Obedience And Rules 05:48 Coffee Caffeine Confusion 10:43 Modesty Shoulder Signals 12:31 Bishop Worthiness Interviews 18:03 Dating Marriage Pressure 20:04 Purity Culture Upsides 22:28 Masturbation Sex Education 25:22 Mission Call Korea 27:30 Height And Mormon Norms 39:57 MTC Training And Age Change 44:54 Missionary Surge Buzz 46:06 Church Mission Mindset 46:53 Everything Proves True 48:25 Sick Before Korea 53:31 Early Return Stigma 01:02:39 Trying to Go Back 01:07:12 Resentment and Rumors 01:09:59 Temple Devotion 01:14:45 Endowment Anxiety 01:21:18 Leaving and Scrupulosity 01:25:07 Scrupulosity and guilt 01:27:28 Grace never enough 01:29:48 ADHD and inspiration overload 01:32:33 Leaving makes you enemy 01:36:14 History cracks the shelf 01:37:45 Mental health breaking point 01:44:50 God said it’s okay 01:48:59 Second anointing shock 01:52:52 Joseph Smith parallels 01:55:08 Life after leaving 02:01:29 Purity culture fallout 02:06:47 Don’t shrink message 02:09:03 Breaking the cycle

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Those are all the less devoted people. And somehow they And somehow they proved that we were worse because in the end we left. Right.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Fuck all of them. You're supposed to be in white and all this white stuff, and then they put a fucking green paper on you.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Yeah, green on my face. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

No kidding.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Like wanting you to fail after you leave the church so that they can prove in their heads that the church is true. Like, see, she lost the spirit, and then her life, like, like, you know, just fell apart.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

And I totally agree with you there because and it's evil. Because the proof, see, when you leave the church, you struggle. You struggle. And it's proof to them that they're fucking right again. It's just more proof that they're fucking right again.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

This is a me problem. I'm just like not spiritual enough. I'm not faithful enough. Like, I need to have a better attitude. But um, but I do know that a lot of people struggle with that. Like, I had a friend that confessed to her parents after going through, and her mom was like, She's possessed by demons, you know. And like, Welcome everybody.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

This is the Jag Jeffs podcast. Today I'm joined by Madison Sparkles. I found Madison via Substack. She has a Substack called Confessions of a 30-year-old virgin, and she's an ex-Mormon. Madison, if you want to introduce yourself and tell everybody anything you want them to know about you.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Yeah, um, I am um, like Jaden said, Madison Sparkles is what I go by online. And I left the church a few years ago, and um I have a lot of a lot of feelings about purity culture and just a lot of different ways that the church had affected me and others, and just different harmful things that I've seen. And um anyways, I yeah, I feel like I have like a million thoughts, but that's kind of the gist of what this.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Yeah, well, thanks for being thanks for joining me here today. Uh I thought your article was interesting about purity culture, and I figured we could just start with talking a little bit about your growing up life and kind of tell us tell us where you grew up and uh how comfortable you were in the church.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Okay. Um, so I was born in Utah. Both my parents grew up in Utah, so I had a lot of roots in Utah. And then in when I was six years old, I moved to Iowa. So, like all of basically all of my growing up memories and formative years and everything were in the Midwest. And so being in Iowa, like being a member of the church was very rare. And um, and so I feel like just having that environment like automatically kind of put me into a role where it was like I was the example, like I was the Mormon that people knew, you know, and I was like the I don't know, like a like a lot of missionary opportunities and just like questions all the time and stuff. And so um I know that that like affects different people in different ways, but for me, I feel like I I thrived off of that, like and I loved it, like I loved I loved the church. I was always super committed. Like I feel like yeah, just I ever since I was little, I just always like had an innate desire to be good, and like the church was kind of the formula that I was given on like this is what good means, and this is how how to be good and stuff, and so I yeah, I just always wanted to follow that, and so I yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

So you're you were just a really strong Mormon, you were really into it, and over in Iowa, everybody's a Christian or an atheist or agnostic or something, and so they're kind of turning you're kind of like the Mormon girl over there. Correct. That's cool, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Yeah, and I love I loved it. Like I liked being different, and um, and the city that I grew up in like being more liberal. It's at like a university town, and and I liked like I don't know, I just I just loved environments where it was like I could like tell people about the church and I like I could just I don't know. I liked being different. I was like embarrassingly Mormon and like embarrassingly like Molly Mormon. And like I just yeah, I just embraced all of it.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Yeah. So what does it mean to be embarrassingly Mormon? Does that mean you're just like telling people about the book of Mormon in school? Or how exactly does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Um, that's a good that's a good question. So I was actually I was really shy, so it wasn't like so, in terms of like wanting to like go out of like my way to like tell people I wasn't like that at all, but just in terms of like my obedience and everything, like I like I don't know, I just I just took everything very seriously, like I I took it very literally that like we're supposed to follow the prophet and the prophets speak for God, and that's like I had a strong testimony that like God loves us, and so even though these rules might like look weird or different or be difficult, like that's what's required, and like thus but I don't know, and so I I just internalize all of that like to a false almost.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Hey, I have a question. Um when you were growing up, could Mormons drink coffee? I see, I've been trying to get to the bottom of this caffeine thing because when I was working with a couple Mormon fellows, yeah, they would always drink a couple monsters, and I was giving them a hard time because uh they won't drink a cup of coffee, but their monster has three times the caffeine. So is it coffee or is it uh caffeine?

SPEAKER_01 6:18

So no, that's a good question. And it doesn't really make sense, and I feel like it's like never totally made sense. Like, um, so yeah, so when I grew up, I mean, coffee's like always been like items to the table, you know, like coffee and tea. I was taught that like herbal tea was okay, but like anything else wasn't. Um and then like I felt like at like church activities and stuff, they would never have caffe like caffeinated um like soda or anything, but um I felt like it kind of depended on the family. I personally like I don't really like any carbonated drinks, and so I I don't know, I don't really like I never really liked anything that had caffeine in it, and so I was more just like giving your apple juice or chocolate milk, you know. So I I never really like had any of that. But I remember one time, this is like as an adult, but I had like an interview from um from a bishop. I was like probably like in my late 20s, and he had like I think he just finished like tithing settlement or something. He had done just done like a bunch of appointments, and he had like five or six monsters like just on it, like on his desk or whatever, and it just like felt so off because it was just like like and I don't care if people drink that or not, but it yeah, like coffee versus that, it's like which one's more healthy, you know. Like, I don't know, and I don't care what people drink or not, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

It doesn't that's testimony building right there, yeah. Having the bishop with four monsters, that would definitely I would definitely bug the bishop about that. Did you just sit there and not say anything? See, I would have been like, look, man, you could be drinking coffee. Yeah. I'm just kidding. Um so when you're growing up, what what point in life do you start realizing that you're different than uh well, you're Mormon. I don't know if being Mormon is being totally different than the rest of the world, because everybody's kind of weird no matter where you go. At least that's what I think. But uh, what point did you start being like, well, maybe I shouldn't be a Mormon? I mean, if you were getting interviewed by the bishop in your late 20s, that sounds like you were still being a Mormon in your late 20s.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Yeah, I was I was a Mormon for I was super, super Mormon. Um and didn't yeah, I didn't question it until way later. But um when I the point that I think I started realizing I was like a little bit different was when we moved to Iowa because when I we were we lived in West Jordan, um Utah before before then. And I remember like growing up being kind of confused at like what the difference was between like what's church and what's not church, you know, and I think I think that can be common sometimes when you are in that area, when it's just like all my neighbors and friends like are in my ward and everything's just like mixed together. And I remember it like being in preschool or something and asking my mom, like, um, and this is kind of like a random thing, but like I remember there were a lot of like ladies that would go and like walk and like walk around in the neighborhood. And I remember asking her, like, are those assigned, like kind of like visiting teachers and like other church things? And she's like, No, they're just like walking, like they're just walking with friends. But like it was hard for me to decide like like what things like the church says to do and what things just people just do. Um but yeah, like when we when we moved to Iowa, um like a lot of people in the area, like there's a lot of churches there. Um like I don't know, it's there's a good amount of diversity. So like it's not weird to like not go to church, but it's not weird to go to church. Like there's a lot of mix and stuff. So I had a lot of friends that went to other churches. Um, but I knew that like I was one of the only kids in like my elementary school that like went to our church and stuff. And so I think more when like yeah, just like early elementary school when different things started coming up of like I had different rules than other people did, you know, and like um and just like kind of like the coffee thing or just like modesty or just kind of things affect like your daily life. Um, like I don't know. I think those things started to kind of click of like, yeah, I'm not quite like everybody else.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Can Mormon women wear do they have to have their shoulders covered? Like when I'm in a when I'm in a bar out dancing over here in Utah and I see a young woman or someone with sh uh their shoulders not covered, um, like they just have straps or something.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Yeah, is that can I guarantee that's not a Mormon or um yeah, I feel like recently it's just been like the last few years. I mean, obviously people have always kind of like I don't know, not that like everybody's always followed their rules exactly, but like just in the last few years, I feel like that has changed. It's like done like a 180. Um, but the Mormonism that I knew, um, that was very much not okay. And it was definitely a sign of like either you're not a Mormon or you're not like as dedicated, you know.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Yeah, well, I was at the bar the other day, and uh, or it's the dance hall, the and these two girls came in. They have I can like I see them all the time. They have these uh sleeves that come down there. I wouldn't say it's like a t-shirt, it's more like one inch past. It's super common. I see them all the time. Yeah. I'm like, oh, that's fucking Mormon. I swear to God.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

And that's I feel like that was like what it was like until just a few years ago. It was like you could definitely tell, like, those are the Mormons and those are like, I don't know. They're just like, yeah, it's there's a lot more of a line than there is now.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Well, I gotta ask you about your bishop interviews. Were these just like bishops asking you if you were worthy? And uh when did they start in your life? Like when you were 15 or were you older than that? When do you start getting questioned by the bishop? And like, what is he asking you? Is he just asking you, like, are you being a are you being faithful? Are you paying your tithing?

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Like I think like be like before you get baptized at eight years old, do you like meet with them? But it's not until for me, like until I was 12 years old that it happened like regularly, and I think it was every year. Um, to and the main thing was like renewing your temple recommends, like, um, so just making sure that you're worthy. So, like there were basic questions, just like, do you believe in God? Do you believe in or like Heavenly Father? Do you believe in Jesus as your savior? Holy Ghost, do you believe, like, do you follow the prophet? Do you sustain the prophet? Um, so just kind of like basic things and then worthiness stuff, like and like obedience type things of like, do you pay a full tithing? Like, are you honest? Um, do you keep the law of chastity? Um, like, do you feel like you're worthy to go to the temple? Um, stuff like that. So I would do those every year, but then I feel like there'd sometimes be like additional ones. Like um, there were a few times that I had like bishops say that they they had like inspiration or counsel that they like needed to talk to me about, or um there's also like um every like at the end of every year you go in and like talk about like the tithing that you paid and stuff. So there's I don't know. There's there's a number of different things, but it was it was it was regular.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

So when you're 18 and you're like dating and starting to have sexual relations and stuff, um, well, I'm not saying that I'm not saying you did, I'm just saying like if you're a 18-year-old girl uh in the Mormon church and you're starting to date and everything, are the bishops asking you questions like, how's your dating life? Like, have you hooked up with somebody? Like, have you shown your boobs to somebody? Like, how how detailed are they wanting you to be with with them?

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Um, so thankfully, I mean, and like thankfully, I never had bishops get too like too detailed with me. I also like was very obedient. So, like there were a few times that I did feel guilty for like, oh, maybe like I went too far, but it's it was like like not even anywhere close to like having sex or something. But like, um so I've heard a lot of stories about bishops like asking like just like way too many details of like like down to like what color were your panties and like just like like totally like un like stuff that they do not need to know, right? Um, but I never had an experience like that. Like I feel like for me it was just more like do you keep the rules like outlined by the prophets and apostles? And like is there basically like is there anything that you feel like you need to confess? Um and so like I feel like I was never in a position like that, but I know a lot of people who were. Um I actually I think this this is kind of rare compared to like what a lot of people experience. But um I did have one time like um in my 20s when I was in a relationship and I yeah, there were just like a few times that I tell like I told the bishop like, you know, like we like nothing happened, but like I felt guilty that it like went a little bit further than it should, you know. And he actually stopped me. He's like, I don't need to know all the details, which I felt like was kind of opposite a lot of the stories I hear. Like I feel like I've heard even like younger teenage girls that like I know that it's been like they were asking me these questions, and I'm like, you do not need to answer those, like that's not okay for them to ask, you know. But um, but yeah, in general, it was it was just more like basic for me. But um, I was taught like growing up, like in primary and young women's, um, so like as like a teenager and like pre-teen and stuff. Um, I was taught like any any sexual sin, even if like you don't know if it's like sin or not, like you need to tell the bishop and like any questions that he asks, you need to answer completely. Don't hide anything, like tell all the details because um like you want to make sure that like he knows everything so that you can repent correctly, you know. And like I was so naive that like it was just like, yeah, of course, you know, like I don't know. And and like thankfully I never had like a bad experience with with the bishop in in that setting. Um, but like it scares me looking back now that like I was I was very vulnerable and it put me like in it put me in a bad situation even though things didn't happen, just having that mindset of like, yeah, like it's okay for me to be alone in a room with an older man and they can ask me whatever questions they want, and like I need to give them whatever details they want.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Um so if you're like an 18-year-old or a 22-year-old or whatever in the Mormon church and you're not married, but you're in a relationship, if you're in a relationship, what does that mean? Does that mean you're trying to get married? Does that mean like like what does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Um so when when I was growing up, like I was taught like don't don't ever go on a date until you're 16. And then um like but don't ever be like boyfriend, girlfriends, like don't be exclusive until you're at least like 18, um, or like out of high school and can like get get married and stuff. Um so for me, like I I did a lot, like I did a lot of data. I was single for a long time. Like I feel like being single for that long, like in the Mormon world, it's being like 60 years old, you know, like it's just like really skewed at like how old till till what age? What?

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Till what age?

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Till your uh twenty twenty-two is is old or yeah, I mean like I felt I felt old in like my early twenties, and then I was still um I left the church in my early 30s, but yeah, like even as like um like a 30-year-old's like 29 to 30 year olds being single like in the church, like that's like like you're like just like 60 years old, like essentially for like Mormon time frame, you know, it's just like oh like hopefully I'll get married, you know, like it might be past my time. Um but but yeah, so for me, like being in a relationship, it was like you're exclusive, you are trying to get married. Um and yeah, so I just because I was single for so long, um I I dated a lot, but like um also had a number of like actual relationships.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Um sometimes I look back on the FLDS or look at the LDS church, and I kind of like a lot of things or or I miss some things about it. And is there is there something about purity culture that makes people uh have have an appearance of beauty that you don't see other places or like is there something beautiful actually about it, or is it just appearance of beauty? Like, I feel like there's something good about it, but of course, not not very many people want to talk about it. But I'm just wondering.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

No, that's a really good point. I think yeah, with both purity culture and like the church in general, I think there's definitely a lot of good mixed with um like harmful things. But yeah, absolutely. Like I think with purity culture specifically, I think that um like I I think that there were some harmful situations that also protected me from, you know, and um it's like I feel like it it helps me gravitate towards um like other friends in high school and stuff that even though um a lot of them like weren't Mormon, I did have friends that were like very devout on their own religions and had like purity rings and different things like or promise rings. I can't remember. Anyways, they were they were um like wanting to like save themselves for marriage and stuff, and and I feel like it kind of um I don't know, it led me to a group of friends that we kind of had similar standards, even though mine were definitely like more I don't know, like more strict as a Mormon. Um, but I think it did lead me to friends that otherwise I may not have gravitated towards and like they're some of my best friends and um and yeah I think I think that there's there's kind of like also an innocence and playfulness that like we had just because we we were like I don't know we we just had a little bit of a different mindset and stuff but um but for sure there's there's a lot like it's it's definitely a mixed bag for for all of it.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Is it okay to masturbate when you're a Mormon? Can you is it is that fine?

SPEAKER_01 22:35

I was taught that it was absolutely not okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

So uh yeah like um the the guidelines that we had were like um to not just only like not not have sex before marriage but like don't touch each other like even over clothes like don't la like don't lay down on top of each other um don't touch yourself like don't arouse any feelings within yourself um yeah like yeah so uh as a young Mormon do you understand pretty well do you get a like a normal sex education and all that stuff uh do do all Mormons get a pretty typical sex education or I feel like for um at least for like me and the like kind of peers I grew up with and stuff I feel like it it kind of depended on like your family and and different things like um I feel like I like I feel like I knew like all all of like the basic stuff you know but um but I did like when I went to college I I got my undergrad at BYU Idaho um and um and so when I went to college I had a women's health class was like one of the um like required classes that I had had to take and um and my teacher was really really awesome um and I liked that she she was a little bit more open minded and she was like look I have I have girls all the time that come to me like come to my office and are like I have no clue about like anything with sex you know and like I've asked some of them even like had asked their parents or like their mom like can you tell me more and like she said that some of the parents had said no which is crazy to me because I'm like they're gonna find out at some point like you like wouldn't she rather be the ones to like tell them but um anyways and so like I I like I feel like I I had a lot more knowledge than like than that but um but she she was awesome she did like a um like an optional like honeymoon question and answer thing because she was like so many of you guys just have like no clue about like any of this you know and and I mean like I was definitely naive in in a lot of ways but like I um like I I don't know like I felt like I I knew a lot more than some some of the other people you uh you went on a Mormon mission um can you tell us the story about going on a Mormon mission and kind of how that went down and like how you got called to the mission I've had like uh I've had the Mormon missionaries come over to my house like ten times since I moved in here and so every time I meet 'em then I just like to like grill them about some I just I just find uh some kind of pleasure in just like grilling them about some of their doctrines for some reason. But yeah if you could just Okay. Thank you. That makes me feel better. I I do when I'm done um but yeah they like get under my skin just enough that I just have to do it and I don't know if it's nice but it's fine um yeah so I um I grew up with so both my parents served missions um and I have two older brothers both of them served missions um I'm the youngest and um and we also like when I was a teenager we had sister missionaries like living in our basement um and I just had a lot of like exposure to missions and stuff and at the time um the the age for for women to serve missions was 21 um and I was I was doing um college at that time and like I'd never been one that was like oh I'm for sure gonna go on a mission you know like it kind of scared me honestly like just all the unknowns of like I can't control where I go or like what I eat or just I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

There were just like a lot of unknowns and it kind of scared me but I so I was never one that was like okay I'm for sure gonna go on a mission but I wasn't like against it either um hey I gotta ask yeah um I know you're really tall like six three yeah are you six three?

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Six three yeah okay um and what age did you hit six three? Like was this before the mission or was this after the mission? Like when when did you get six three?

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Um good question. So I got my growth spurt a little bit later. Like everybody in my family's tall and like both like all my extended family members are tall and so like I always knew I'd I'd be taller you know um but like I feel like I didn't get like super tall until high school and in high school I hit like six foot. And then when I was like at BYU Idaho um I like like my friend wanted to like measure me and she was like you're six one and then like I feel like like a couple years later it was like oh like I'm actually like six two. I don't know. So I feel like I I didn't hit like six three until like more like my early 20s.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

So I was by the time I did serve my mission I was probably probably either six three or like six two six two and a half almost basically there yeah okay and I have to ask in Mormon culture does the woman have to be like shorter than the dude is that a thing um I think it's like very much socially like a thing.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

And I think it's not just like Mormon culture um but I like I think just kind of in in general that's oh yeah but but I think it is extra in Mormon culture and I didn't like um like I honestly like I didn't realize how much like my height like how do I say this I didn't realize how much like the Mormon culture and everything played into how I saw myself and like my body with my height. And I think a lot of that was from yeah just like in my in my teens and twenties like I was living in like Idaho Utah just like where there's a lot of LDS members and I I think like a lot of that culture is like fitting in and like it's you know and that's I mean that stems from the church itself and all the obedience and everything but like in the culture there's very much that like I feel like it's like everyone jokes about like everyone in Utah has the same hair and the same style you know and um I think when you're in it that's difficult to see but like when you go other places it's like yeah there's definitely like a Utah look. But I so I knew that like I knew all those things in general but like it wasn't until I like left the church that um I was like a little bit more open to like oh I'm like maybe I want to wear like heels sometime you know um and like I'd never really like I worn them like a few times before that but like like I don't know I just like hated being like too tall or standing out like too much, you know, and um and it's it's been interesting to me. I feel like it's it's just been kind of like a happy side effect. Like I didn't expect this but it's been um for me like a kind of a happy side effect of like leaving leaving the church that like I feel like I've felt more comfortable with like I don't have to like fit in and I don't have to fit this like norm, you know and um and I I do think that like in the Mormon and especially like Utah culture it's just like there's a very specific way to look and and um and I think that like standing out and especially like with whoever you're dating or like married to or whatever is just like not really like usually socially acceptable. And sorry really quick another thing um like I think that there's also a very like it's subtle but it's very real like pushback on like as women we don't have to like they don't want you to be too like overbearing you know and I also felt like people treated me like I was more like I don't know like just being so tall I felt like I was more intimidating um to some of the people like in the Utah culture. So um anyways there there were a number of ways that it affected things like that.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Well I'm just thinking about it if if like a six foot three Mormon missionary uh you know young woman missionary showed up at my door uh I don't know like I I would almost have to like immediate like I that would be a lot of pressure for me. You know what I'm saying? I'm just kidding. Um so in the world today like do you feel that you have to have someone taller than you if you're dating someone does someone have to be taller than you uh because you're 6'3 and like even most of the guys I know are only six foot or six two so do you feel that even post Mormon you need someone taller than you um I've always been okay with like like a little bit shorter you know and like even like I did kind of break the norm like as even as a a member like I did date like a few people that were like a few inches shorter and um and there were definitely some outliers that were like like I had a few guys that were like like a foot shorter than me that were like there was like a significant height difference so like asked me out and I'm like good for you for like like you know um and like I never like dated them but um there were there were definitely some outliers but I think I think personally like I I still still tend to um yeah like I I don't mind being like a little bit taller but um but you would prefer someone that was like six five I mean that's fine I I'm not I was just curious you know yeah no I think I think just yeah as long as it's like within a few inches. Okay. Yeah yeah that makes sense so being tall def it it's not like any there's no spoken rule it's just in Mormonism if you're a woman you're supposed to be a little more submissive and being tall isn't necessarily a good strategy to being submissive. That's kind of what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

Exactly and I think like I didn't I didn't realize like a lot of this was just kind of subconscious and I I didn't realize a lot of things and um and it definitely like just bleeds into just culture in general not just like or just society in general but like um I I think it's more so in the church. But um but yeah I think like it's already one thing to be like way taller than everybody but then like adding heels I feel like people look at you like in the church of like oh she's that girl she's probably like a feminist and she's you know and like I had a master's degree and I I felt like people kind of already treated me like that of just like I don't know. Um so yeah it wasn't until like after leaving the church that I was like yeah like I I don't know it was it was just weird it was like this like just like I don't know just like something like lifted off of me of like oh I don't care about that as much you know and I still have to be in the right mood to to wear heels out like in public because everybody comments like like they just do and that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

But like I so I still have to be right and fuck you're you're taller than ever holy god yeah and like everyone's like oh my gosh she's so tall I'm like I can hear you but yeah um but um anyways yeah um yeah if I was like a Mormon bishop and I held the priesthood and I was like 45 or something and you know this it there's a subconsciousness to uh authority and you know this six foot three woman comes in and heals for an interview and she has a a you know a college degree and stuff then I'm gonna be like yeah we gotta make sure like she stays in order.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Yeah no absolutely that's the yeah that's the subconscious uh authority you know to be in tall totally yeah and that I yeah I didn't realize how much that like affected me until I wasn't like in that anymore okay well I sidetracked your no you're good you're good story about the going on the mission so yeah if you could keep telling us that story. Yeah no for sure um so yeah so when I turned 21 um I like prayed about it like should I go you know and I yeah again I wasn't like I really want to go but it was just it was more of an attitude of like I'll go if you tell me to go but like I'm good if I don't you know um and I I didn't feel good about going and so I I stayed and I finished my bachelor's degree and um and then after I finished my bachelor's degree I was kind of figuring out like okay like what do I want to do? Do I don't want to go work and stuff. And at that point like I I did feel like okay like God's God wants me to go on like a mission now you know and um and I was so scared. Like I um yeah I just like I I loved being a member and I loved like sharing um about the gospel with people but like in my own ways that like I I wasn't every one that was like okay I want to go give you like a book of Mormon and like just like a random stranger. Like I I did that sometimes like to my friends but like I don't know I was so scared of like going out to random people and I was yeah I was scared of like where I was going to get called and if it was going to be safe and if I was going to have electricity and just all the things but um but I felt good about going and so I went um or so I put in my papers and so um and so at the time yeah like you have to meet with your like bishop and state president and just fill out this information about yourself and make make sure you're worthy and everything. And um and so I did that and honestly like I had um I had a minor in French and I was like please like let me go to France you know like like or somewhere in Europe or you know something like that. And um and I kind of thought through like all the possibilities but um but when I opened well I I thought I had thought through all the possibilities but when I opened my mission call um I got called to Taijiang Korea and like Asia was totally like out of the question for me because I'm like there's nothing about me that like screams Asian you know like I wasn't like I knew like my brother had gone to Japan and I knew other people that like went to Asia and they were like into like anime or different things and I was like I don't know anything about Asia like I don't know like I don't know and I was terrified of um I was just terrified of everything I'm like like I I hate seafood and um and just I was like I'm gonna be like a million feet tall there right like I'm gonna like like I'm actually gonna scare people.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Yeah I feel like nobody could convert Asians like a six foot three you know Mormon girl that hates seafood.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

That sounds like I I would have sent you to Asia too I know I know it's funny like everybody that knew me was like shocked like it was like it was like nobody like pictured me and like I don't know I just like it just kind of shocked everybody. And I was yeah I was like really really scared for a while and just like praying like like for confirmation of like is this where I'm supposed to go you know and like um and I did end up feeling like peaceful about it and stuff and like okay like it's gonna be okay and like I'm doing God's work and I'm on like God's on my side and it's gonna be fine um and um anyway so yeah I um because I was learning Korean um like they have you say at like the missionary training center like MTC for different amounts of time depending on like where you're going or what language you're learning.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

What's MTC?

SPEAKER_01 40:17

Um so Missionary training the mission training center um so the main one is in Provo Utah but they also have other ones in other places in the world but that's like the main hub um so yeah so I think at least at the time um for people going just like English speaking going to like the United States it was just like three weeks and um I think like Spanish speakers were there for like six weeks and um and I was part of the group that we were there for like the longest so it was closer to 12 weeks. And um I I I was nervous about being there that long because I'm like oh you're just like it's just like this teeny little campus and like for most of the day you're in these just rooms with like 10 people just studying the language and I don't know I was just like oh like you're just gonna feel so yeah that's almost enough time to get engaged. I know it's more than enough time like I knew so many people this is a side note but I knew so many people at BYU Idaho like the nickname for it is like BYU I do um because it was like um like people I don't people think of like provo as being like wow people get engaged so fast but like like Rexburg like where BYU Idaho is was like so I don't know like I knew people that got engaged after like a couple days and oh okay like it's just yeah I I guess I I lived there for a little while.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

Oh did you and you know yeah and I I the dating scene there is odd I have to say but I definitely dated a few Mormon girls up there and I would agree that that whole BYUI to home it's just a thing of itself like nobody can actually get that place figured out. I'm not even gonna try anymore. I decided like I didn't like living there. I lived there long enough and yeah no nobody so you went to BYUI?

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Yeah that's so funny. I yeah I feel like people either love it or hate it there. And I like I really I really did love it. Like most of my memories at BYU Idaho are like really good. I think I think now um I can't like trying to get in some um yeah I think now like if I if I were to go back after leaving the church I'd be like oh my gosh this place like drives me crazy you know but um but yeah I I loved it but it's definitely like its own it's just its own place.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

Well if you're a Mormon like it's not bad. Yeah there's some weird things that go on but you know what one thing I noticed about uh a lot of the young people there is they just seemed a little bit lonely and I would go on a date with somebody there and they would be like oh I just need a hug and I would give them a hug and then and then I would they would be like yeah I I'm not that sick like I gotta marry a Mormon. I'd be like yeah yeah you should go marry a Mormon. I'm definitely not a Mormon so like thanks for the hug both yeah thanks for the hug.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

That's so crazy.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

So you were in Provo and you go through this 12 week training.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Yes. So um yeah so I I um was there for a long time I had two companions there were three of us girls and um then like six elders I think um that were like in the same level class like district. But um Um anyway, so I ended up like loving it there, surprisingly. And like my companions and I, like we got along like so well. We became like really good friends like immediately. I became really close to everybody there. Um, and while I was there, actually, they during conference, like after we've been there like a few weeks, general conference was um uh like they like broadcasted it um like during the weekend. And um that's when President Monson gave the announcement for like the age change for missionaries, and so they said that like you don't have to be 21 anymore for sisters, like now you can go at 19, and so like everybody at the MCC was freaking out, just like, oh my gosh, like this is the Lord's work, like the church is true, and like the like the work is hastening, and like Christ is coming, you know. There, I don't know. So I feel like there was like this extra like energy and excitement, and there were like we'd hear stories from like outside world of um like all these like 19 year olds that were like lining up to you know go get all the like just do all the things to get their paperwork done, and we're like, oh my gosh, like there's yeah, I mean amazing.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

The way you're saying that like almost makes me feel like the work is haste. I know. You know what I'm saying? Like, oh my god. I know I almost felt my testimony bill right now. This is crazy.

SPEAKER_01 45:25

I know, yeah. Um, yeah, it was yeah, it was like I felt like like we were all I remember going to like the cafeteria after like that announcement, everyone was just like freaking out, and we're like, this is better than Christmas, and like everyone was just like so excited. And and so I feel like that I don't know, just like that time frame of being there, there was just like this extra like just excitement in general about being missionaries, and everyone was like, Oh my gosh, like like everyone was telling us like you were called right now because like the Lord knew that they were gonna be like sending all these other missionaries, and like you're so righteous that like you're supposed to train them, and like like everything, you know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

And um oh, I I really appreciate how you're saying this because I don't think people realize like one of the things you were saying, how you bonded really well with your colleagues there, and it's like, yeah, you really bond because you're a part of a mission. The church is like a mission, it's a calling, it's something to do, it makes you feel better about life. There's a serious energy, and if you believe in it really, and the prophet changes something like that, it's like the work's going forward. This is serious business, things are happening, yeah. Like it's intense. Like, hell yeah. Like, let's go. Everybody's reading their fucking Book of Mormon a lot more. It's like, let's go.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Totally, totally, yeah, yeah. You get it. Um, yeah. Like it I and I I think in the church they're really good at like making you feel like special and making like finding ways just for an like yeah, just finding ways for you to feel like like you are at the right place at the right time, you know, and like everyone for the last like hundred years has been told like they're the chosen generation, and like I don't know, like um, and uh so I think that that like there just I don't know, there's a lot of bonding and a lot of like excitement, and then all I feel like whatever happens, it always comes back to like it proves the church is true. Like if it's something good, it's like, oh my gosh, like the Lord's leading the church, it proves the church is true. And if something bad happens, it's like, see, that proves the church is true because that's Satan fighting against the church, and it's like, I don't know, every everything comes back to the church being true.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

Yeah, I know. It's like if your if your good friend that left the church jumps off a cliff, it's like that's proof the church is true. And if they struggle and then come back, it's also like that's also proof the church is true. It's like for real.

SPEAKER_01 48:05

Like I like I feel like I can play like this game in my head of like like give me anything and like I'll find a way to like prove make like make the church true from it because like that's just like I don't know, it's just like what what we grew up doing of like that's just what everything comes back to.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

100%.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

Okay, so what happens after uh uh MTC so um so yeah, MTC is going great.

SPEAKER_01 48:35

Um so I I entered in September, the age change announcement was like the first week in October during general conference, and then um our our flight to Korea um was December 3rd. And like I like remember dates like weirdly, I don't know. But um, anyways, December 3rd was like the the day that we were supposed to fly to Korea and um the end of November um I like randomly got really, really sick and um and my body just kind of like shut down, um, and I was just like sleeping all day. They thought it was mono at first, and um everyone was like peeping me like, sister, like who have you been kissing, you know, like um, but um yeah, like I my body just like shut down and um and so there's like a sick bay, it was called at the time at least, um, at the MTC where they have a couple like in-house doctors, and um and so we went there and at like at first like they weren't really like taking me too seriously. I think they were just like, oh, like you're just homesick, or you like this is your first time away from home. And I was like, no, like I like I lived away from home for like four years, and like I like like I I am homesick, but like this is there's like there's more to it than that. And thankfully I was good enough friends with my companions and like we'd been um like thankfully it was like two like we'd already been like in the MTC for like two months, so they knew how I usually um like what my energy usually was and like what my personality usually was, and so they were vouching for me. They were like, this is not like like something's wrong, and um and so um anyways, they have they had like these little like cots that you could go like sleep in um like during the day if you weren't feeling good and stuff, because your your companions are still supposed to like go to class and whatever, and um, and so I ended up just like going there like every day because oh, because as a missionary you can't be by yourself, and so like I couldn't just like stay in the room sick, like you're always supposed to be with your companion, but since my companions were like in class, I had to be like in this sick area. Um is that like a is that because of like risk of masturbation or why um probably um risk of anything. Um but yeah, like you're supposed to be within like sight and sound of of your companions, like unless you're like showering or going to the bathroom, but like otherwise you're supposed to be like like where you can see and hear them. Um and they actually we like we joked about it because I ended up so I ended up being sick for like two weeks there. Um and so like yeah, in the morning they'd like walk me over to like the sick bay and they'd be like, Oh, we're like just taking you to your daycare, you know, and then they'd like get like a little walkie-talkie that they'd the like the doctors would like if something happened they'd like reach them there or whatever. And so we just joked that was like my daycare and um and anyways the doctors were just like yeah, like it's it's fine, like you'll like it's just some bug, like that it just kind of like wipes you out and you'll be fine. Um and then yeah, it just like wasn't getting better, and I'd never been like sick for that long before, so it just felt weird. Like normally I felt like it's just like a few days that you're sick and then you're fine, and um and anyway, so a few days before our flight to Korea, um I was like talking to the doctor, and just because like I wasn't improving or anything, he's like, I think that you'll do better at home. Um and he was like, but it's fine, like it'll probably just be like a few weeks, you'll just sleep and rest there, and then um then we'll we'll get shit to Korea and it'll be fine, you know. And um, and up until then, like I was worried about getting better in time because I was like, oh, like can't like the state I was in, I was like, I don't even have enough energy to like go and like sit my butt on an airplane, you know. So like I was just like so wiped out. And and so I was just worried about getting better in time for that. Um, and it looked it was never a question of like actually going home. Um, but then it was just like like yeah, like nothing's changing, like we think you'll do better at home, and then we'll we'll get to like to Korea in a in a couple weeks or whatever. Um and so yeah, just like it was just crazy like how fast things changed because it like that was like one afternoon, and then like the next morning at like six o'clock I had like a flight home. And so um there wasn't like a whole lot of time to like process or anything. And um, and there's a lot of stigma um surrounding like going home early from your mission. Um just that like I don't know, there's just like there's there's a lot of like different sayings or like there were movies and different things that were like like don't ever come home early, like don't like like the I don't know, that that was basically like the worst thing that you could do, you know. And even though I was sick and I had like an honorable release, it was socially like very not okay.

SPEAKER_00 54:07

Yeah, I feel like I feel like it's something like it's like if you're a baby calf and you're trying to drink milk before you get born, or something like that. Yeah, yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 54:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

Uh like God would help you through if you were if you were more faithful and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 54:29

Exactly. And there there's there's a lot of that mentality of like, well, like you should have just like prayed harder, or like I got like a priesthood blessing, and um, and I was like, oh, like maybe I just didn't have enough faith because that was like it said like God will help heal you. Um so I did like the mental gymnastics of like oh like at first it was like oh shoot, like well, I'm not getting healed, like maybe I don't have enough faith, but then I was like, oh like you will still heal me, but maybe it's just like in a different way at a different time than I thought. It didn't just you know, like all the things, but um Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 55:00

I feel a little bit judgmental even right now. Like if you would have been if you would have been more devoted to your mission, then you know. I know you you could have made it through.

SPEAKER_01 55:14

I know, I know.

SPEAKER_00 55:16

Everything in your life after that would have gone better.

SPEAKER_01 55:19

You would still be a member of the church. Yes. My life just went downhill ever since. Like, look at me now. Um it was like, and honestly, like because I had been such a like a Molly Mormon, like in so many ways, like I like other than getting married like really early, like I I fit like the stereotype of all the things and was super obedient. And this was like like the first thing in my life that that like like that didn't really like fit that and that was like just not acceptable, you know. And and that was like really difficult for me to do, like I emotionally and like spiritually, like it felt like I had sinned, like even though like I I knew like logically I had it, but like that's how it felt. But like I I didn't know what to do with that because I was like very like like I can't really repent because like I didn't like do anything, but also like I felt like because our call is we're told like from God and um and just like I don't know, just everything that we're taught about like this is you know, like God prepared this for you, and I've had all these like before I left on my mission, and then at the MTC, like I'd had all these blessings about like people I needed to help in Korea and different things, and I was like, oh my gosh, like I'm like letting everybody down, and I like I don't know, I just felt like I had just like sinned and like fallen from God, even though like which is crazy to me, like looking back, especially now, because I'm like like the the pressure that like is on like young adults for all that is just crazy. Um but um but yeah, there the stigma is just like out of this world. And um and at the time I didn't really know anybody else that had like come home early from my mission, but then like the the years after that, I I talked to a number of people and I felt like the story was just like the same across the board. It was just like it was just like this like hell that like you go through that people don't really like realize. Um and yeah, so I um and thankfully this is this is one thing that I do appreciate. My my companions and like my um like the group of missionaries that I was with, like that was like we were all learning Korean and everything, like they were amazing, like they were so kind and so supportive. And I know that like not everybody had that, you know, with like the missionaries they were around when they when they left. And um, I just got really lucky with like really awesome people there that I um yeah, that were like not judgmental. But um, but yeah, so I I came home and just like went through all these different emotions and ended up being sick for like six months that I was just like like in bed and the doctors were doing like different tests and stuff, and um and finally they were just like we can't really figure out what's going on. We think it might just be like some freak virus, like we were we're just gonna like narrow, narrow things down to just make sure it's not anything more severe, and then beyond that, like we're just gonna have you like waited out because that's basically all you can do, you know? And so um, so yeah, it was just like this weird combination of like my my whole life just changing plans really, really fast, plus like physically dealing with like your body like shutting down, plus like all the spiritual and like social components of everything. And um anyway, yeah, it was it was a lot.

SPEAKER_00 59:19

So did they ever figure out what it was, or did you just end up getting better or they they never pinpointed what it was.

SPEAKER_01 59:26

Um yeah, they did like more and more tests to make sure it wasn't like anything like yeah, just like more serious. Um, but they they just said they thought it was like a freak virus. And then when I I felt so lame because like when I told people my story, like after about like getting sick, they were like, Oh my god, were you like in Africa or something? I'm like, no, I was in Provo. Like I wasn't even like anywhere cool, you know. And um, but the doctor did say because they do have people from like all over the world that come to like the Provo MTC, and so they were like, it would have been really easy to pick up something there. Um, but it was just like a freak thing. Um yeah, like just like just really, really odd. But it was also like this just because of the timing of it and like not making it to Korea, like getting sick while I was still um in Provo. Um it was also like socially like awkward because um like talking to other members and stuff, it's very common to be like, oh, like did you serve a mission or whatever? And then if you say yes, like the next question is like where? And so for me, like like it was hard to answer that question without going into the whole story because I'm like, oh well, like Korea, but like I've never actually been to Korea, but like I didn't want to say like provo. I don't know. It was just like there was no short answer, and so it was just like this like socially really awkward thing to navigate, but also had like a lot of judgments surrounding it, and so it was just hard to like I don't know, it was just it was just here, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:06

It's kind of like somebody asking, Hey, have you ever had sex? And you're like, you know what? I gotta tell you about this time I masturbate. That's kind of that's kind of how it was, you know. Because like it's like, did you go on a mission and it's like I was called to Korea? Right. You won't believe this. I was called to Korea, and then I didn't fucking go. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:32

Yeah, very good.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:33

Okay. So when you get better, you're just like, okay, life's gone on too far. Fuck the mission. This is God's call to me to not go on a fucking mission. If I was a Christian or some some other person, I would be telling you right now, like, God saved you in some way. I don't know how, but I don't I'm not like I'm not trying to I don't know what your beliefs are. I don't want to offend anybody.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:56

No, you're just telling me.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

Yeah. You know, because if I was a Christian, I'd be like, well, God was saving you from being a Mormon for your entire existence, but uh anyway, so do you kind of just true because Satan didn't want me to go?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:19

What?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

Oh, that's oh, Satan didn't want you to go, and that's why you got it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:25

You can spin it like any way, even though it's like the same example.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:27

Yeah, I know. True. Yeah, that but like Satan knew you were gonna convert all of Korea.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:35

That's the problem.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:37

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:40

No, so I um yeah, so I I actually I did want to go back and like um like finish my mission or like start it, whatever way you want to look at it, you know. Um, do the rest of it. And um I like I was I was so heartbroken to be home. Like I would just like fall asleep like crying every night. Just I mean, I was like sleeping like during the day too. So I was just like always in bed, but like I like I would like I was just like so heartbroken to like not be there and was just like pr like praying all the time, like please help me to get better, like like this is where I'm supposed to be, and like I know that's where I was supposed to be, and like why would like why would you do this, you know? And like like if there was any any time to like heal me or to answer someone's prayers, like now's a good time, you know. Like I'm praying to like go do your work, and um, and it was just like nothing was getting better for like months, and um, and yeah, if there was ever a good time for God to heal somebody, like where the fuck are you? Yeah, I was just like, yeah, there was definitely like a lot of dissonance, like cognitive dissonance in my head of just like and like my like my blessings and stuff. I was like, what like like what the hell? Like what like what what is this, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:02

And yeah. It's like I'm six foot three, and you're you're pushing back my mission by a couple months, and that takes my chance of getting a husband way down. And this is getting really socially awkward. I know. You know what I'm saying? Like, where the fuck is God in all of this?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:19

I know. I was worried though, like, because because I was sick for so long, I was like, man, like now I'm only gonna overlap with my companions for like a little bit. And I was like, now we have all like the 19-year-olds, so now me oh because I finished school first, I was 22. So I was like, I'm gonna be like the grandma of the mission, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:37

Like, yeah, and uh 22 with all these 19-year-olds get the fuck home.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:43

I know. I was just like, oh, like this is awful. Um, but but yeah, I ended up I ended up feeling like like no, like God, God needs you to be home. Like this is like like you have like a different mission, and you know, and um and I just felt like okay, like that was what it needed to be. I don't know why, but like that's that was that, and there's things I need to learn here and I need to I need to stay home and um and yeah, like and I I ended up um the next few years because at the time there wasn't really like um there weren't really like resources for people who came home early from their mission. And um and so I was like, oh my gosh, like there's like this huge traumatizing thing that people are going through that like there's no support for, and like people just I don't know, like like I did have a lot, like because I was in Iowa, I think socially like it wasn't as bad if I were like in Utah um coming home early, like if that's where I I was living. Um, and so I feel like I didn't have to like it it wasn't my story wasn't quite as bad, like socially. As some people I know. But like there were still like a lot of rumors and stuff that it got back to me and whatever. But um, but yeah, like I the next few years I I tried to like talk to a number of people about like what was it like for you and whatever. And I felt like yeah, just across the board it was like the same story. And um and I I was like really passionate about like we like we gotta we gotta do something to like kind of to change this and whatever. But like it's I don't know, it's just it's just like this really unique, rough like thing that yeah, I I hope has gotten a little better, but um yeah, it's I I can't help but just like explain to people like I did before.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:42

It's like you're in a group of people, maybe you're in a group of young college kids, and everybody's telling each other about the first time they had sex or whatever, and you only have a story about masturbation, you can't go back and change it, you know, because that's kind of how missions are. That's kind of how it is, and they're all mocking you, and so you get depressed. Well, it's kind of that way with missions. Like, you didn't say, Oh, you left home early on your mission. Oh my god, come on.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:10

Yeah. No, absolutely. And like I I'd get annoyed sometimes because like um, like as I I don't know, just like over the next few years after I was home, like I heard, or like I don't know, I I knew more and more people that had served missions but were like not obedient like at all, like on their mission. And like I'd get so like I'd have such a hard time because like socially they were like the righteous ones because they were there for 24 months, like that like and because I came home early, it was like I'm you know, like the flaky, not faithful one, and like I don't know, and probably a lot of that was just my pride of like I I get what you're saying, like fuck you.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:57

Yeah, you served a mission, you were disobedient the whole time. Yeah, you do whatever you want, you don't read the Book of Mormon that much, you're kind of a rebellious little whatever you are, and here I am. I tried, I got sick, I prayed, God wouldn't heal me. This is the real test. Like, fuck you guys. Yeah, and now people think that I'm not the most faithful one. This is ridiculous. I totally resonate with you, I support you in those feelings like a hundred percent. I'm telling you, I understand those feelings.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:28

Yeah, no, I I was definitely like I feel like even though I still was faithful in the church for like years after that, like I feel like I was never quite the same after my mission. And like I like I did I hated being around missionaries, like be with part of it was because of that. Was like um it it brought up a lot of those things. It was also just like I don't know, it just brought up a lot of emotions that I'm like, you guys are all annoying, but a lot of it was like judge just maybe like judgmental or like jealous or just trying to like not get into my own trauma. But um, but yeah, there were there were yeah, I don't know. There were a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:09

Well, maybe they were right. I think they were right because you left.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:13

I know. I was like, it it proves all of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:15

Like Yep. Once you left, you just proved all of them right.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:21

I did, I know, I know. It's it's funny how like after you leave, it's like anything you did like beforehand just gets tainted of like, oh, she never had a really like a real testimony, or like she she was just fooling all of us, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:34

Like yeah, like we knew uh see. I know, I hate that. When I was leaving the FLDS, I felt that way. I was like, I these guys have been saying things about me my whole life. If I leave, they're gonna be like, sure enough. Like, fuck, this is an awful situation. Fuck you guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:55

You can't win. You can't win.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:57

I know that's okay. Um well, can you tell me about your temple work? Uh did you go to the temple a lot? And before your mission, after your mission, like were you going to the temple and do it doing like these baptisms for the dead? Like as if you know your ancient, you're you're baptizing, you're getting baptized for like your great grandma or whatever, uh, like it was serious. Like, were you doing all that stuff or I I was.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:29

I I loved the temple. Like I so, yeah, so growing up, um uh I could start doing baptisms for the dead when I was 12. Um, but so they have like the kids and teenagers do, you know. And um and Nauvoo was my temple, um, like the temple we were assigned to.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:52

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:53

Um so there was a lot of church history there, and I just felt like this huge like love for like all of it. And um, and it was a couple hours away, but I like there I'd go to the temple with my family, I would go sometimes like with friends. I we had like church activities there a lot, you know, like I spent a fair amount of time in Naboo, like growing up and stuff. And so um, and I always like because we had to drive a couple hours there, um, this is also like my pride, but I I did judge like the people that were like in Utah or like closer to a temple that they were like, oh, like I haven't been in like months or whatever. And I'm like, you have it like right there, you know. Like, like I like how can you not like and I just like I just couldn't understand that. And um, and yeah, it's like definitely a lot of judgment and and stuff, but um like good.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:48

It's like I can't I know I feel that way too. When I was in the FLDS, pe people that had way more opportunity than me to be good were not half as good or taking their opportunities. Yeah, that's ridiculous. Come on, guys. That is not I know that is not the devotion that I thought everybody should have. I know. I was more devoted and getting less opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:11

How is that fair?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:12

I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:14

I know being by Navoo, like that's testimony building, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:18

Yeah, I yeah, I I loved it, and I I felt like I understood church history a lot. Like, um, like I felt like I like when people would say, like, oh, like I have all these issues with church history, it's like, what's not to love?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:31

You know, like like you got come over here and see where our prophet got killed.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:36

Yeah, like it was just like it was just this very like sanitized version that was like like looking back now, I'm like, oh my gosh, like everything that I was taught, it was it was kind of like as accurate, it feels as accurate as like Disney's Pocahontas is to like real life, you know, where it's like based on some stuff, but it's very like very edited and um not quite what happened. Um and yeah, I we I visited like Kirtland a few times growing up in Palmyra and just like I yeah, I just had like a deep love for like the the church and the temple and then like all of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:15

After you got went on your mission, were you still doing a lot of temple work?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:20

So yeah, so I was like just in in bed for like six months and uh and it wasn't I feel like it it took me a like a while even after I did start kind of getting better to like feel like I I could do that. But um, but yeah, like as an adult, I I spent like even more time in the temple. So like when I went to Rexburg, um when I was at BYU Idaho, like there there was a new temple that had been built there. And um, and I told myself, I'm like, I'm not gonna be like the like I was so judgmental. Like, um, like I I was this weird, I don't know, I was like this weird mix of like I feel like in a lot of ways I had more compassion for for people and like was like less judgmental in a lot of ways, but then I feel like there were other ways that it was just like probably like my pride that I was like I'm gonna be, you know, I don't know, it's like this weird mix that I was like I'm gonna go every single week and like I'm never gonna like let myself like take it for granted, you know, like like other people do. And I know that that's like one of Satan's temptations that if you're you know, like once things get too easy, it can like you can get casual and and like I'm not gonna like let that happen. And and so um, so yeah, I was I like at BYY to Hodge, so I'd go every week and do baptisms for the dead, and like I loved it, and I always just felt a lot of peace there. And then when I went on my mission, um, like before you get married or go on a mission, like you go um go through for your like your endowments and do like higher ordinances. Um and I had like mixed feelings about all of that. Like I like when I got endowed, I was I I really loved there's like a few different parts. Um but like I really loved like the initiatory, which is like um like what you do like first, and it's like these kind of like blessings that they like give you. And um, like I liked that, and then the endowment kind of freaked me out. Um, but like I I didn't want to like act freaked out because it's like this is the most of like you know, important day of my life, and like Satan's just trying to get in my head and all of that. Um but um but anyways, besides the endowment, like I loved like everything else in the temple. And so when I did get better and like moved back to Utah, like later after my after my mission, I ended up being like a temple worker and did that like several different times like throughout my 20s. Um and even then, like there's they they assign you to like different parts of the temple um to like help out in. And like even then, I would like I would pray all the time, like please don't let me like help out with the endowment. And um, like like anywhere else, like I like I liked the overall like peace and stuff I felt in the temple, but like the endowment, I just felt so much anxiety.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:20

And um anyways, why'd you feel anxiety about the endowment? Like, what's the difference?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:28

It was just like a lot like I don't know, there were just a lot of different components that um are like more symbolic that were so foreign to me of like anything that like I'd felt before. And um, and like it's pretty common for most people when they go like to get endowed, like I feel like there's just like this mindset of like, don't worry, we're not a cult, you know, like it's gonna be okay, it's just symbolic, it's just ancient.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:56

Like is that the thought you have to keep in your mind? Is this not a cult? This is not a cult.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:02

That's I feel like that's very common for people when they like when they get endowed just because it's so different than like any like it's so different from anything else we do in the church, but it's also so different from like what you expect and like kind of how they I don't know, it's just it's just so foreign and and like we I think that's good advice for all the Mormons watching.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:25

Like that's that's what you gotta keep in mind when you walk in there. This is not a cult, this is not a cult. Heavenly Father, I love you, this is not a cult, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:35

I know, yeah, and like I don't I don't know if I had like the word cult in my mind, but I was like, I I just remember being so anxious and just being like, I don't like this, I don't like this, but then feeling like, no, that's Satan, and of course, because Satan's trying to do that, and I feel so gross here, it proves that you're just true, because Satan knows like you know, um Satan's trying to get to me and and all of that, and and there's like there's different like robes that you put on, and like that felt weird, and like there's like a green apron, and like whenever they talk to you about like the temple, it's always like, Oh, you'll be dressed in white, you know, and even though it's like a simple thing, like just having the green, like I don't know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:21

What the fuck is that green doing in there? Who the fuck? Whatever all this, yeah, you're supposed to be in white and all this white stuff, and then they put a fucking green apron on you. What that? Yeah, no kidding. God, yeah, that's annoying. That's the cultist green fucking apron I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:42

Like it's funny, it's like such a small thing, but it's just there were I don't know, and like it just I don't I don't even know how to describe it, but it I I remember like at the end, so you like you do the ceremony and then you go through like a veil and then um then you go into like the celestial room at the end, which is this like open, like peaceful room that like everyone just kind of like gathers and like hugs and whatever. And I remember a lot of people coming up to me and saying, like, oh congratulations. And I remember thinking like like it felt like such a weird word, like it like like and I didn't I couldn't pinpoint like why, but I'm like, I just feel like that doesn't match like what just happened. And I just remember like everyone was like, I'm so happy for you, and I felt so guilty because I was like, I just want to go home and like like I just want to leave. Like I just felt so over like so sorry, I can't talk, so overwhelmed. Um, and I don't know, it was it was just like a weird feeling, but I just turned it back on myself of like like this is a me problem. I'm just like not spiritual enough, I'm not faithful enough, like I need to have a better attitude. But um, but I do know that a lot of people struggle with that. Like I had a friend that confessed to her parents after going through, and her mom was like, She's possessed by demons, you know, and like I don't know. There's like there's I don't know. I don't know, it's just like a weird experience. So you kind of were suspicious after you went through so I I honestly like I not not in the sense of like questioning the church or anything. It was more like, okay, I know the church is true. I just don't know how like this fits into stuff. Like and I like I just blamed on myself of like this is a me problem, and like you know, but I was like, it's okay. I love like I love the baptist like the baptistry, like where like I spent years doing baptisms for the dead, like I loved that, I loved other parts. Um, but yeah, I just like I I tried and like yeah, even as like a temple worker and even years later, I just I don't know the endowment I just never loved.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:52

It always just stressed like it was stressful and it was I don't know. I I don't know, I don't know how to describe it, but it just like it didn't like the other parts of the temple. I felt like peace and like whatever in that one. It just like I just didn't vibe with it and it just felt like yucky and awe.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:09

Pray harder next time.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:11

I know. Pray harder. I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:17

Okay. So now the your mission is kind of behind you and you're just living in the church. Uh when do you start thinking about leaving? Like what why?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:33

So um let's yeah, I was still in the church for years. Um after that, like super, super faithful um was in for like another like 10 I don't know, like another decade-ish. Um and honestly, like it happened really, really fast. And like I was so like like I was so dedicated and so faithful that like it's like I had prayed, like I like this sounds like dramatic, but like I had prayed ever since I was a kid, like I was so scared of ever losing my testimony or like falling away from the church. I'd like every single night I'd pray like please help me to never like fall away, please help me to like always stay true to the gospel, like like and just I don't know, I was so scared of ever falling away and just like always wanted to be obedient that like it's crazy how fast I left and like everyone was shocked.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:31

But um I know just just talking to you and listening to you describe these moments of faithfulness and devotion and like spirituality. I I personally just have anxiety right now about why you left. No, seriously, like I almost I I feel the devotion from you in the church, and I I seriously like I feel anxiety about why you left. And I know what you're saying, like I don't want to lose my testimony, please, like whatever. Like I was that way. I was like, put me in a car crash before I lose my testimony or shit. Absolutely, you know what?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:10

Yeah, like a million percent, yeah. Like it would it like it was my life, like not like there was for sure like the component of like I want to keep my salvation and like be with my family. Obviously, like that's a big deal. Um, but like um, but yeah, it was just like I loved it, like it was my life, like I I wanted to be good, and again, that was just like the roadmap that I had for for that. And um, and like I I just I like it was my life, but um yeah, like I throughout my twenties I started struggling a little bit more like with my mental health. Um there's it's it's definitely been like throughout my life, but it was more in my 20s that like it got worse and I I realized it more and um and a lot of it was just kind of like anxiety, um, but then some like depression mixed in. And um, anyways, uh down the road from all of that, like um I was just like not in a good place mentally and had been like just really, really struggling and couldn't really figure out like why. Um and I finally um learned about the term like scrupulosity. And when I like looked into it, um I was like, oh my gosh, like this is like a lot of what I'm feeling, you know, which is it's like a spiritual OCD. And so it's just like this like yeah, like need to like like perfectionism basically, but just like like just really, really like strong and just like oh sorry, there's thunder.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:54

Um so does is scrup whatever you said, scrupulosity, yeah, is that where I just need to pray a lot and I just gotta make sure I'm doing things right? Like I I'm trying to understand your depression and everything through that time.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:13

Yeah, no, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:14

What does it mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:15

Um, so I think like um, so it was it was kind of like a mixture of things. Like I think there there was just for sure just some like mental health stuff that I would have had in any situation, even if I was like outside of the church. I I think just biologically and everything like that, I would I would have struggled with that. But I think um I was able to put into words that there was a lot more of like a spiritual component to it where it was just like this obsessive, like like not just like I like I want to be good, I want to be righteous or whatever, but like um like I was I don't know, I was able to kind of like look back and see different patterns of it, even like as a teenager and things like um like I would just take like anything that I learned about the church, even if it wasn't like something from um like general conference or something, it was just like if it I heard something in a talk at church, it was like I I couldn't describe like I couldn't like prioritize like okay, like these are the most like important things or whatever. It was just like I have to do this, I have to do that, I have to do that. And so like for example, this is like a little thing, but um like when I was like growing up, I used to love to read. And um and like I would just like read a lot in elementary school and stuff. And I think like in junior high at some point, I I heard somebody and it was just like a church talk, like it wasn't like comp like general conference or anything, but like I remember she talked about how like you should love to read, like you should be more excited to read the scriptures than you are to read like your regular books or whatever. And I remember just like taking that to heart, and like anytime I wanted to read after that, I'd feel so guilty, like I need to read the scriptures, like or or like I should be like I shouldn't want to read this, like I should want to read the scriptures more. And um, and like it's sad looking back, but like I just didn't like ever like read as much after that just because I felt so guilty. But like just anything like that, I would just like internalize, and um, and so I I think it was just like like growing up and as a teenager and whatever, like it was it was kind of starting to pile on, but it was like manageable and stuff. And I think like in my 20s when I was like I'm trying to do everything like the prophets are saying, I'm trying to do everything that the like my local leaders and everything saying, and then like I also struggled with like um the idea of like we were taught that like with the atonement that like you're I don't know, the like grace, like the um Jesus Christ like grace kicks in like after all you can do, and like just because I My I don't know, just the way that my brain processed things, I was like, there's always more I could do. Like, and so it was like I could never, it was like always out of reach.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:07

And so um like I could just more pretty well agree with that. Like there's there's more even this, like there's more you can do for your salvation.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:16

Yeah, and so it was just like I don't know, it was just it was just like always out of reach. And I I knew that that wasn't like I'm not, I was like, I know that the savior also like loves me and like wants me to like feel peace and feel love and whatever, but I had like there was like this disconnect in my head of like how do I actually like get to that?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:35

And um, and there like I was you were you were not one to be like okay, I think I've done this enough. Uh we're gonna ask Jesus to do the rest. You were like, I gotta, I gotta do more.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:49

Yeah, I mean I was I was definitely asking, but I was I was trying like I was like like like please help like what I can't do, but I was like, he like, I don't know, I just I just felt like I couldn't like totally access that help. And and I mean I I did feel like what I interpreted as like God helping me with things and stuff, but I I just felt like I was like I felt like I was like just never good enough, which I know is very common within like that, like within the religion and everything, but I felt like it was just to like an insane degree. And um I also struggled with like we were we were taught like any like any thought that you have that um is like a good thought or that's like to help somebody or or whatever, like comes from God and like to follow that because you don't ever know like I don't know, like um, because that's how how God speaks to you and yeah, you're getting inspiration. Yeah, and I didn't know this at the time, but I just like um like within the last year I've gotten diagnosed with um inattentive ADHD, which is um more like the hyperactive the hyperactivity is more like in your head. Like I was never one to be like running around classroom, but like my brain's just constantly like going. And so within like a minute, I would have like, okay, write this person, go do that, go call this person, go do that, you know, and then and so like I had a hard time because I was like, oh my gosh, like I have this like list of like a thousand things that like God God wants me to do, and if I don't do it, like what if somebody gets hurt? And like what if and then that'll be on me because I didn't follow the inspiration, but it was just like I never like obviously, like that, like you can't do all of that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:35

And um Yeah, I know what you're saying. I think I was a lot the same way. Like when I was growing up, I whenever I heard a scripture about something, I would meticulously follow it. Like when I heard about Samuel the prophet always praying towards the temple, from the day after I heard that story, I always prayed towards the temple. No matter how no matter how far away I was, or little things, but I would I I totally get what I totally get what you're saying about like you have a good thought and you're like, oh, that's inspiration. Right. And then you you act on it. So like for me, I I would do this so bad. Like I I see like a shovel laying down. I'd be oh, I have to pick that up, somebody might get hurt, or I just feel like, oh, that's that's the right thing to do, or uh, oh, this person needs me to say something nice to them. All these good things that you could do. Totally. And it's like it's like, no, you you're gonna like die trying to do all this.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:36

Totally, yeah. No, absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I I yeah, that's exactly what it was. And like I know that other people that don't like process things the same way, like can look at that and be like, no, obviously that's just like a you problem or whatever, but it's either way, like that's that was my reality, you know, and it was just like well those are all the people that have the opportunity to go to the temple and be good and everything, and they don't take it.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:07

Like they serious uh you know what I'm saying? Yeah, no, it's not developed. Those are all the less devoted people, and somehow they and somehow they prove that we were worse because in the end we left. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:20

You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:21

Fuck all of them. That's how I feel.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:26

I know, it's yeah, it's yeah, I feel like it's so unfair. I know. Ever since like just ever since leaving, I've just been like, this has just been like the biggest mind buck where it's like just I don't know, just processing everything with the church itself is, but then yeah, all those social dynamics and everything, and like um this this is maybe like sidetracked a little bit, but like um a few months ago, so so my social media account is like I only started it like like half a year ago or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:00

Um your Instagram account.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:02

Yeah, um, like Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube are like my main ones. But um I like in the winter I had somebody from like a burner phone start texting me. Um and but it was somebody that like clearly knew me and my family, and they'd found um they'd come across like my Instagram account um like earlier on, and it was somebody that like knew me from church clearly. And they were texting me for like two hours about like how awful I was and how I'd like just just all the things, like you know, of just like, oh my gosh, like I can't believe you like you dress like that, and like all you're doing is just like trying to get men to like just be disloyal to their or is that the right word? Just to like, I don't know, to you're trying to be a temptation and like you're a slut, and the like how could you talk about the church like that? And at the time, all I'd done was just say like I'd left. Like I'd done a video saying like I'd left, and they were like, stop lying about the church, and like stop being so deceitful and and all these things, and and it's just been like so wild, and like I never found out who it who it was, but like I just ignored it. Um, but like I I don't know, it's just been so wild because I'm like, you guys know me, like, and even if you do think I'm like deceived or if I'm doing the wrong thing and stuff, like like I feel like I proved myself enough of that I like I have a little bit of good character or like a little bit of integrity, or like, or I don't know, that like I wouldn't leave just you know for fun, like the like or I don't know, that like I don't know, it's just it's just been like so wild how once like yeah, like once you leave, it's just like you are an automatic enemy, and like and yeah, anything that you did is just like the it's everything it's just gets flipped around. You're like in an upside-down world.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:58

Yeah, well, that is that is why I consider the Mormon church cult. Because when I was the the LDS people say, Oh, we're so much different from the FLDS. Um, but when I was in the FLDS, that's how it was. Somebody would get sent away, somebody would be pushed out, and it's or leave or whatever, and it's like they are so evil. Forget everything, forget how they helped me with breakfast the other day, forget how they like drove me somewhere, forget all the good things they did for me, everything that they did good, fuck all of it. Like, fuck you. Uh you're evil, you're just pure evil. It's it's disgusting how evil you are. Like that, and it's like, yeah, yeah, I I didn't spend any time like loving you. I spent absolutely zero time doing anything for you, didn't like you forget all of that, and that's how the Mormons are. And they and then you leave and they're like, get the hell out of here, and then they sit there when you say, Oh, you're a cult, and they're like, What? I can't believe you would say that about us. It's like fuck you.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:07

Yeah, no, I makes me mad. It's just frustrating. It's like you like you literally you you can't win. And like one of the things that was really difficult for me, like, um, yeah, I I initially I initially left because of like mental health stuff, but then um then that kind of opened the door for me to like I I just got to a point that I was like, okay, if there is a problem with like the actual teachings, or like I don't know, if there's actually a problem with the church, like I need to know, you know? And so um I like was finally open to actually like learning a little bit more. And it's just been so frustrating because I was like, like Joseph Smith and all these other leaders like were completely different than what I was taught that they were, but like w members are so quick to just like give all the grace to them of like, oh well, they're just a man, like you can't expect them to be perfect, and like we don't know the situation, we don't know the context, like just all these things, you know, and it's like why can't I have just like one percent of that, you know? Like just like it's just like I'm not doing I don't know, like on like in the real world, like what I've done, like drink coffee or like wear this, or like I know it's just like well, I mean, I guess it's changed, so this is fine now, but like um like just that like actual things that I've done are so mild compared to like what like the church has done in a lot of settings and like what leaders have done, and like that's just like swept aside so easily, but then it's just like I'm the enemy, it's just it's just weird.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:45

I I want to talk a little bit about uh mental health because you said you mostly left because of mental health, and I think a lot of people in the church, like I was talking to my sister a while ago who's still in, and she says, Oh, mental health, yeah, you yeah, a lot of people think they need some they need help or whatever, and you know, she's kind of mocking it. Um I think what a lot of people don't understand is the degree that you you can come close to death. Really. Like you can come close to death. Um and a lot of people in the church or in the FLDS, they mock it. They say that you should be more loyal, you should be more stable, and I don't know what it is, but if you experience it, if you really experience it, then you understand that no, this comes close to death, or you coming closer to death, or or something happening is what pushes you over the edge to to understand, like and I personally feel like most of the people that are staying in, like, a lot of them have serious mental health problems, but they are unwilling, they have a lot of them have gotten close to that edge of instability where they need help. Right, and it's too scary, it's too dangerous. They they can't touch it, and they rescue themselves by going back to God. They they feel that spiritual feeling, they go to the temple more, they partake in the sacrament meeting more, they do all these things, they become more devoted. And so I would say that some of the most devoted members are people that have been pushed towards the mental health crisis, but their only rescue is to go back and become more devoted.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:06

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:07

And so I just wanted to get more of your thoughts on what you mean by like, okay, mental health, like that's what made me leave.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:18

Yeah, no, that's yeah, I I agree with that, like what you're saying. Um it's definitely a huge problem, and I I think that like it's a lot a lot more people struggle with it than like you would like than just like from outside, like just like looking in at the culture or whatever, like there's I don't know, like you can't always tell that a it's very, very common for I think especially like women in the church to like struggle with mental health and um and yeah, like in in a lot of ways um yeah, like like the the church was like my my comfort, right? Like you you turn to to like you were saying, like you turn to be like more loyal and you turn to Jesus Christ, and like you have like your your social network there, and you have like you know, like I I was reading scriptures every day, I was listening to a conference talk. Like usually when I got ready in the morning, I'd fall asleep to a conference talk, and like I did that for like years and years and years. Like I was like like it was just I don't know, just like devote more and more and and like in a lot of ways those things at the time helped, you know, like like they I did find comfort in them, but like overall it wasn't like I don't know, like I didn't realize how much of that was contributing to what was going on as well, um, is like this I don't know, just like really complicated dynamic. But um yeah, I got to a point that um yeah, like after a long time of like on and off struggling with like anxiety, and then I just been struggling with like depression for a while. And um, and then when I what I did realize that like um that there was a spiritual component and like the scrupulosity was part of it, like I remember having this moment um that like I was like getting ready in the bathroom and um and like I was just like not in a in a good place and like um uh I think it should be like a trigger warning for like suicidal ideations, but like um I I I wasn't suicidal, but I I was at a point that I could see myself becoming suicidal if um if I kept on going like I don't know if things kept on going the way that they were and um and and yeah it wasn't that like my life was bad or anything, like I had like like I love my family, I love like I had I had a good life, but it was just like just the the mental health was just really struggling.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:03

I know I w I wonder what that is exactly because I know what you're saying. You you come to a realization that if you keep going like I don't know what it is, but you if you keep going like it's it's it's gonna be bad. You know that.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:26

And I don't know, just coming out of that world is uh it's so strange, it's so hard to explain how much of a different world my brain is in now, and just entering into it is almost like passing through death, almost. Yeah, I don't know. But if you stay, what are your options? Like it it is a painful process.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:58

Oh, absolutely, yeah. And I I like I I was just yeah, I was just like in such a bad place that like I realized that like okay, that's kind of where I'm at. But like we're taught in the church that um like it's better to die faithful than to ever leave it, you know. And and like again, I was so so faithful, like I'd been praying for like my whole life basically, like as long as I could remember. Like, please like never let me fall away, like don't, you know. Um but like and so I had I had this moment when I realized like how bad my mental health was and how like if I I felt like if I continued going the way I I was going that like I it could lead me to becoming suicidal and it I felt like I wasn't again I wasn't there yet, but I felt like it wasn't too too far. Um and um yeah, like so I I had this moment where I was like, I yeah, like I I'm not ever gonna leave the church. Like I like you die you die faithful, right? Like I was like I couldn't I can't ever leave. Like I can't deny what I know to be true, I can't like do that to my family. I can't I just I just can't do that. Um and um like I had like what like immediately after I had that thought, another one, like a a thought followed that um that like I felt was like from God that was just like that's not what I want for you, you know, and that was like the most foreign thing in my life because I'm like God's not supposed to tell me that it's like okay to leave, like that's the opposite of like everything that I've ever been like told, but like it was also I don't know, it was it was the same like yeah, like I don't know, I was like it's just like it was so clear and it was like it was as like I don't know, like I was like this like this is God telling me that, you know, and um and it was just like this weird moment where I was like, how is that even possible? Like if the church is like what it says it is, then like why would God be okay with me leaving it? But then I was like, you know what, like maybe God's just like that compassionate, like maybe he can, you know, like have like like maybe the church can still be true, but like he can like he can guide me to other things. And I um I my degree's in special education, and so I I've spent um time like teaching and um and so I had kind of the mentality of like okay, well, if if I can figure out like kind of um differentiated ways to like reach different kids and like recognize that like they have different needs and like sometimes they need different environments and different strategies, as like God could do the same thing, you know? And so um, like even though it probably looks bad to everybody, like I like it was it was just like the first time that leaving was ever even like an option for me, and it was because I felt like God told me like it was okay, like I don't want you to get to that point where like you have to say, like, like is it gonna cost me my life? You know, even though that's what I was I was told that like my whole life is that you if you're in the choice, like you give your life to the church, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:47:21

And like Yeah, like I would say I had a I had a very similar type of awakening too, in the sense that like in the beginning I decided, okay, well, I had this moment where I was like, oh my god, uh, what if you know, what if I was to do something different? But then your brain starts reaching for ways that this can be justified. Like, okay, maybe the FLDS isn't true, but something's true here, or maybe like my particular path, like something different is supposed to happen. So you start using your beliefs to justify your survival kind of totally, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:07

No, that's a that's a good way to put it, yeah. Yeah. I so yeah, so that that was like what I f I feel like I was kind of in that phase for like a little while because I I it it was just it's so foreign that like I could even think about leaving. Like, I don't know, just like it would like it it was just like so weird, but I felt so much peace about it. And so I was like, I like I can't make that up. Like if this were me, I'm like the most anxious person, like so like so like I have to be obedient. I was like, I cannot like force myself to like I don't know, I I can't convince myself to like be like feel peaceful about it, but like I I just felt like no, like God's okay with me doing what I need to do, you know? And um and so that kind of like put me in like a different like mindset, I guess. And around the same time, like a little bit after, but like around the same time, I also found out about like the second anointing, um, which is like uh like a secret ordinance that they do. Is that like a thing in the FLDS as well? Or yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:15

In fact, I'm off I'm offering it right now if you need it.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:18

Thank you. That's what that's what I was hoping for.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:24

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:26

Um yeah, I um I happened to like I wasn't like seeking stuff out, but like I I happened to hear or can like learn about that, and I was like pissed. I was like, they're just like granting salvation to people. And I'm like, yeah, I know like sometimes in the scriptures that happens, but I'm like, that's not to like I don't know. I was like, I feel like that's so rare, and that's like I don't know, I just felt like I'm like they're playing God and and it just felt so reckless to tell like to be promising people like Yeah, like you're good. Like anything you do from here on out, like you've already got salvation. You're fine. You know, I'm like like that just it just it blew my mind. And I'm and I think especially after having been a temple worker in like three different temples, I was like, You can't tell me that that's like I don't know. I was just like that like they always say for the temple, like it's not secret, it's sacred. I'm like, that's a secret. Like I've worked in temples and like I didn't know that they were just like granting salvation to people and like like I was so mad and I was still trying to find a way of like okay, maybe it fits in, but it just like there was no way like I could I don't know, I just couldn't see a world where God would be okay with that. It just felt so evil and yucky to me. Like I just as I got like God wouldn't do that, like I just I don't know, I just I I couldn't get there in my head. Um and it just felt so corrupt. Like it felt like the kind of thing that we'd hear about like another church doing in Sunday school and like mock them for like obviously they're a false church, you know, but like it was our church doing it. Um so yeah, so I found out about that, and then also um like I had some people close to me that um I was like, I like I think they might be gay, I don't know, like they haven't come out yet, but like I started questioning just kind of all the LTBTQ stuff within the church and um and just kind of I don't know. So like the the mental health stuff was like the reason why I stepped away, but then like those like like the gay factors and then like the um like after finding out about the second anointing, I'm like, okay, like what else don't like don't I know, you know? And so then then I was like, I'm I'm just I'm just gonna like look into it and like I do need to step away from the church right now for my mental health, but like I think that like if I'm gonna live my life and continue to like if there's any possibility of me returning to the church, you know, like and at at the time I I didn't really know like what my future looked like, but I was like, I need I need to know like what this is and like especially if like I'm gonna eventually like raise a family in it, like if there's if there's something wrong, like I need to know. And um and and I've also figured like I wasn't like want like I wanted it to be true and I didn't like I don't know, but like I figured like if it's true it'll all work out, you know, and I wasn't expecting there to like not be problems or to not have like things that like I didn't expect like everything to be perfect or to like have an answer to everything, but I also felt like if it's true, yeah, like it'll work itself out and I like I have enough faith that like I can work with whatever it it is, but um, but yeah, that's that's when I was was like more open to like learning it more and the more I learned like um especially I think especially like after having like grown up feeling like such a tie to church history and everything, like um like my when I was learning more about Joseph Smith and like the actual history with him, like like it's it's it's funny like saying this to you, but like the the thought that I had like over and over again was like this sounds like Warren Jeffs, like not like Brother Joseph that I like learned about, you know, I was like, and and it like with everyone. I was like, it's not this is not like like what's going on, you know. And like the more I like learned about it, like because of like like yeah, the church really tries to distance itself from like the FLDS, like so much. And and like and like obviously there are like big differences in like lifestyles and and everything, and um, but like there's a lot more similar like it's a lot more similar than I realized. And I was like, basically I was like, they're just doing everything that we were originally taught and like we've just like gotten more worldly basically. Like we've but like that's that's like what the church was, and that's like what Joseph, like he was just doing the same thing as Joseph Smith, and it just like it was just blowing my mind that it was like this is not like the brother Joseph that they they teach about, like and then how you had it and like all the things, and it like I don't know, I just felt like really, really like betrayed. And I was like, you know what, if if he had like if there were like issues or like whatever, like that's one thing, but like why are they hiding it? Like what like why do we need to lie about it? Why do we need to paint a different picture? Why do we need to, you know, like that was the part that like bothered me more than like the issues themselves was just like why I don't know, like why do we need to cover that up? Like if if there's if it can be explained and if it's actually okay, and if he it's actually like if he actually was following God doing all these things, then like why aren't we celebrating it? Why are we hiding it? It just I don't know, it just all felt off.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:53

Yeah, that's hilarious. Uh it's a lot, it's this sounds a lot more like Warren Jeff's than Brother Joseph. Oh, that's funny. Um okay, well, do you want to tell us a little bit how your life is today? And uh just well, how long has it been since you've left?

SPEAKER_01 1:55:18

So I have been out for four years. Um so yeah, it's um I I I do touching like going kind of going back to the mental health, like I I do want to touch on like um like it's just like so complicated. Um so yeah, like I that was like the primary reason like why I lapped and long term it had like it has helped tremendously. Um but I like I think it's worth noting as well that like it did get worse before it got better, and a lot of that was the social component of like leaving just because like I knew that even though like I had felt peace about like it's okay for me to leave and I felt like God was okay with it and everything, like I I knew that like even though I knew that like they wouldn't ever say it out loud, but like I knew that like for my family and other people that like loved me, that like it would be more difficult for them to hear that I left the church than to hear that like I had died. And like um and obviously like I mean I love my family, my family's amazing, like they like they they genuinely love me, they they'd be sad either way, but like in the eternal perspective of things, like we're taught that it's it's worse to leave the church than for those things to happen. And and I just always for like for I don't know, for probably like a year and a half or so, like after or maybe like a couple of years after leaving, like I really, really struggled with that of like like I've done something like I knew personally, like I like I didn't feel like personal guilt, but like I've always been a people pleaser and I think that like and this was like a people pleasers nightmare. Like leaving the church is like I don't know, like I've never been one that's like, yeah, I'm just gonna go be rebellious and I wanna go sin and I wanna go experiment and whatever. Like I like to play it safe and I like to make people happy and whatever, and this was like a nightmare for me, but I also felt like I needed to do what I needed to do, and um, like between my mental health and also like the more I found out about the church, I was like, I don't like I I can't continue like supporting this when like I like ethically don't feel okay with so many things, you know? And um, but just like that social components was really, really, really difficult for me. And I I think that there's also this expectation of or not expectation, like this mindset like after you leave where like everyone's like watching you and like it's like it's probably I don't know, this probably isn't like the best way to say it, but there I feel like there's there's kind of this mentality of like I don't know, and it's not everybody, like there I've had lots of members of the church be very, very kind and like not judgmental, but in general, I feel like there is a little bit of a mentality of like um like wanting your like wanting you to fail after you leave the church so that they can prove in their heads that the church is true of like see she lost the spirit and then her life like like you know just fell apart. And um, and I think like it's like an unspoken thing, but I feel like it's very, very real.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:38

And well, I I totally agree with you there because and it's evil because the proof see when you leave the church, you struggle. You struggle, and it's proof to them that they're fucking right again. It's just more proof that they're fucking right again, and it makes sometimes it sometimes it makes me so mad because it's like it's kind of like a wife who's getting abused by her husband, and she's just getting beat. But if she leaves, then she's gonna be on the side of the road and she's not gonna have money and she's gonna have some kids and she won't have the house. So what should she do? And she's gonna look bad to all her friends, so she should stay, right? She should stay in the house so that she can look right, so that she doesn't look bad out there. It's like, oh, you're and and then she leaves the house and everybody's laughing, like, oh, you're homeless, you you bitch, you know, like it's like it's like course, of course, it's like fuck you. Yeah, you know, fuck you.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:43

I know for real. For real. Yeah. No, that's that's a that's a good comparison. And like I felt so isolated, like, like, I don't know. I it's difficult because I I feel like I compared to a lot of other people, I know like my my family and like my parents were were way more compassionate than a lot of people experience. And um, and so I feel like I know it's not like I don't know, I don't have like I don't know, compared to other people, I don't have like the worst story or or anything like that, but it's no, I'll tell you what.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:28

Um I'll tell you the truth is probably more like you don't know how to explain some of the harder things that you went through. And when you do, like most people that leave the Mormon church, it would be really nice if they could say, you know what, they they put a knife to my neck, and you know, they they sexually abuse me a bunch. But it's not always that case that you can explain it like that, but it is the case that you were close to death in some ways. Like it is the case that it was bad enough and you do not know how to explain it. And so you I I think it's a mistake to say, oh, uh, I didn't have it bad. I think the better way I would describe it is like, yeah, maybe I don't have a really bad knife to my throat story, but I can't explain it, but I was close to death.

SPEAKER_01 2:01:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:29

Well, um, why don't you tell any everybody where they can find you and uh tell them anything you want them to know, where where can they follow you? I know you have a substack called uh what is it called?

SPEAKER_01 2:01:47

Confessions of a 30-year-old virgin.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:49

Confessions of a 30-year-old virgin. Those those are the kind of confessions I would I would come for. You know, if you're see, I have a brother that's 40, almost 40 now, and he's still a virgin. So one of these days I'm gonna I'm gonna figure out what we need to do to make him not a virgin anymore. But if you're 30 and you're a ver and you're a virgin, you got confessions. You got confessions.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:14

So I'll just say zero out of five stars, do not recommend. Um salvation wasn't on the line, that would not have been a thing. I yeah, like I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:28

The only sad part, the only sad part to me is like you can probably count on your hands, besides being a virgin, you can probably count on your hands how many times you masturbated.

SPEAKER_01 2:02:38

So yeah, they're just like it's funny when I when I tell people like the rules, they were like, Oh, but you could like you could do this, right? Or you like you could like you could at least at least masturbate, or you could at least do oral. You could do like I'm like, no, no, no, like nothing.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:51

Like I know, and then they're like, and then they're like, yeah, but didn't you break the rules here? And break the rules here, and you're like, fuck me, I didn't. I was one of the good ones, fuck me. Like, oh my god, I've really been missing out on life, you motherfuckers. Like all those people that are still in the church, they were breaking the rules, and I wasn't like, fuck this.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:13

I know like, but we're we're the evil ones, like uh Yeah. Like that's one of the things that I'm like, okay, at least like I like I live what I believe. Like when I was in the church, I was in the church and I lived it. And like like when I'm when I like now that I'm out, like I'm not I'm not preaching one thing and doing another, you know. Like, and I'm like, I feel like that has to count for something, but like for a lot of people it doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:36

So yeah, I agree. I'm living what I preach now. Like, yeah, you guys should try sex, I'm trying sex, you know. It's easier on the outside. It it was hard in there, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 2:03:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:03:56

That was so funny. Yeah. Oh my gosh. But yeah, do not do not recommend. I have lots of feelings on purity culture. Um and yeah, so my Substack is um under Madison Sparkles, and the the name of it is Confessions of a 30 year olds virgin. And I just started it like a couple months, a few months ago. So I'm I'm still kind of I have so many layers to my story. I feel like even like this interview just like scratched the surface. Like there's there's a lot and there's a lot of emotions and stuff. So um, anyways, I'm just starting to like kind of unpack that, but I I do have a lot of feelings about security culture and the church that I'm kind of like working through in that. And then my social. And then my social media is um my my main ones are TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube. Um, and those are um hey my gosh, hey, it's Madison Sparkles. Sorry, my brain length froze for a second. Yeah, yeah. So um the handle on those ones are hey, it's Madison Sparkles.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:00

Yeah, and I'll leave the links to all those below. Um and you got you got a nice little Madison sign right there behind you. That's impressive. You're you're you're embarrassing me. You know, I have like this white oh wow, you can turn it on. Dang, you gotta have that on through the interview. Come on now.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:21

We'll we'll get you one too, that's what's Jaden.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:24

Yeah, yeah. That like you have this nice wall art. I'm sitting here with like this white wall and this brown, everything's brown in here. That's embarrassing. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Madison, uh, if you want to tell everybody any final thoughts, uh, I'm sure it can be a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 2:05:50

We can leave with the closing prayer.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:52

Okay. I'm I'm I'm in on that one. Do you want do you want to say it or do you want me to say it?

SPEAKER_01 2:05:59

You can say it.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:01

Oh God, it's been a while since I prayed. I don't want to I don't want people like I don't want to accidentally offend half my viewers who don't think Jesus is cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:12

We'll we'll pass that. Oh okay, sorry. Just la last thoughts. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00 2:06:21

Yeah, just last thoughts. I mean, hell, if you want to say a prayer, I'm all in. If you if you feel like it'd be more respectful, I'll close my eyes and bow my head. Whatever you need me to do, hell, if you need, I'll go put on a white shirt.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:34

Yes, thank you. I'll be a lot better. Um I'll just have a prayer in my heart. But um I yeah, I um I feel I feel like my like it's it's been interesting being like on social media. Like I didn't start with like the intention of like talking very much about the church, but like the more that I do it it's been interesting, like like I the more obviously like pushback I have of like oh my gosh, like you're a hater, even if I'm like not even saying anything. Um but there's also like I've also had a number of people like reach out just saying like oh my gosh, like I'm so happy to know that like somebody else felt like that, you know, and like I don't feel safe talking about it, but like I'm glad that you are, and and so I think like for me between like between just my experiences with the church and like with like my height, I do a lot of like tall girl content as well, just like like you do you and like you can wear heels and like I don't know, like um just trying to like normalize that and everything. And so I feel I feel like just like my overall vibe is just like um like breaking up with like any messages that told me to shrink, you know, like whether it was like physically with um cultural expectations um or just like the the dynamic that I grew up with, like with the church and stuff of just like don't don't have too much of a of an opinion, don't push back on anything, you know, and just like I don't know. I just I just feel like really strongly like like I don't know, just just break up with the messages that are telling you to shrink and like you just do what like what's right for you and like I mean as long as it's not like terrible, but just you know don't hurt people, but like it's okay to be you, it's okay to be different, it's okay to like use your voice, it's okay to like think differently, it's okay to look differently, you know, just like all of that.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:45

Um and uh yeah, yeah, don't shrink. I think I think that's a good message. Like that is the message of Mormonism is fucking don't be anybody but who you're told to be. And so like don't shrink is a good message, you know. Well, thanks everybody for joining. Uh, if you guys like this video enough, then I'll talk Madison into doing it again. Uh everybody keep your head on straight. Like, don't be out doing weird cult things. It's really, it's really strange. It's really hard to like get like it might be good for you, but for your children, it's gonna be hell. So if you break the cycle, that's what we're out here trying to do, break these cycles. Uh Madison, you're a you're a good example of that. And I I really appreciate every per I ri I really resonated with your w you know with your struggle. So thanks for sharing that with us.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:45

And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:09:47

Everybody like and subscribe, and we'll see you guys next time. Peace out.