Inclusive Language and Nonbinary Gender Outside the Anglosphere

In today's ep I'm chatting with Vesna Kurilic of Shtriga Books again!

Today we discuss inclusive language and nonbinary gender in Croatian language and fiction. We explore how culturally specific the discussions around conscious and inclusive language are, and what challenges other contexts face with different approaches toward languages.

Then we get onto grammar. In Croatian, which has three grammatical genders, you flag the speaker's gender much more often than in English. We explore what this means for getting your head around nonbinary pronouns, and what that means for Croatian spec fic!

Shtriga Books: https://shtriga.com

Milena Benini: https://www.croatian-literature.hr/zzindex_sing.php?tekst_id=609&menu_id=1

Transcript

Hello and welcome folks to The Freelancer. This podcast discusses all things publishing through a social justice lens. My name is Andy Hodges. I'm a cultural anthropologist, turned fiction writer and editor, and I own a book editing business called The Narrative Craft. Make sure you subscribe to the show so you never miss an episode and sign up for my newsletter in the show notes if you want more regular updates.

And this week I am chatting with Vesna Kurilic again, owner and senior editor of Shtriga Books. And we are going to be discussing gendered language and non-binary characters and authors in fiction. So hey there, Vesna!

VesnaK (00:47)
Thanks for having me back.

Andrew Hodges (00:49)
Yay, thank you for coming back. First question to you. Many of the listeners know that conscious and inclusive language, which I'll link to in the show notes, for those who don't know, is a big thing in the UK and US editing world. And manuals like the Chicago Manual of Style, which is widely used for fiction editing, emphasise the importance of using inclusive language. What's the state of play with those debates in Croatia?

VesnaK (00:50)
Haha. Are we speaking fiction or nonfiction or like the public sphere?

Andrew Hodges (01:19)
What's it like for fiction writers and editors?

VesnaK (01:19)
Okay.

So for the people in Croatia who write in English, I think we follow the current state of the rest of the world. So we're trying, we're really trying. But for people writing in Croatian, I'm not really seeing that many efforts with inclusive language regarding gender and gendered expressions and non-binary characters, etc. In Croatia, the biggest push for more inclusivity comes from NGOs, especially local human rights NGOs, and they're mostly keeping it to their copy and to their public speaking and to their legislative drives, etc. And it didn't really transfer into fiction yet, I'm afraid. There are people who are trying, especially some, I think, sci-fi writers, writers of speculative fiction in general, and also queer authors. But the rest of Croatia, I haven't seen, I've seen next to nothing on that front.

Andrew Hodges (02:09)
Okay, within Croatia there isn't a big public discourse on specifically conscious language or inclusive language outside of these kind of NGO bubbles?

VesnaK (02:35)
Not all of them are bubbles. Some of them do get featured in major news outlets, but I haven't seen that many, unfortunately, no. Also, a lot of the times, since we are currently leaning back to the right in politics in Croatia and in Croatian society in general, there is more pushback from people when somebody tries to use a neutral pronoun if you don't know who the person is, or include more feminine pronouns—don't just default to using the male pronouns for everything. Also I would be really interested in your take on the subject is from your perspective. Did you see any discourse? Because we're in different, I mean, fiction, you follow more literary fiction, I think, in Croatia, or just know more of it.

Andrew Hodges (03:25)
So my experience working with authors is that they're, when writing in English, yeah, they're generally open to inclusive language edits.

As you say, it's not just in Croatia, there's been a massive pushback because of the US shifting massively to the right, the far right, hard right, far right, whatever. That's had big knock on it. Too far, too far to the right, yeah. That's had a massive knock on effect in the UK as well. And sure, I've seen that in Croatia as well with the discussions around, you know, fascist slogans and things like that in public space, which we won't go into now, but it's... Yeah, we'd like to keep to fiction here. Although I do wish that was fiction rather than fact. Yeah, it feels like...

VesnaK (04:12)
No, We're gonna keep to fiction. It's easier.
Mm-hmm.

Andrew Hodges (04:26)
There's also kind of a rebellious streak in not just in Croatia in the Balkans as well as in like those kind of things are for the West and we want to say things how we want sort of a kind of—

VesnaK (04:39)
—the way our grandparents, said them and your grand your grandparents were Italian and Polish and like give me a break

Andrew Hodges (04:42)
Yeah, yeah.

Exactly, I know. When I was living in Croatia, it felt like the main discussions at that time, which is ten years ago now, were like the influence of the English language on Croatia and like protecting the Croatian language from like these negative, perceived negative influences. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which are also talking points in different ways in the UK. Or like txt spk was a big, thing here. People were like it's gonna ruin the language that was like a discourse twenty years ago, which seems really silly now but people were saying that kind of thing. If we focus on singular they, that has been a massive flashpoint in this discussion and in these debates in the UK and the USA and guides like Chicago have become more progressive as they've updated their recommendations and now they permit use of singular day in formal documents as well, whereas before it was seen as a less formal thing.

Let's use that as an example, and I watched the Eurovision when Croatia came second and there was a big public debate about the [Swiss] non-binary performaer. So how is singular they handled in Croatia and has there been any discussion or debate?

VesnaK (05:57)
Gender. Yes.

To my knowledge, we saw what the English speaking world was doing and we said no thank you. But there's big exceptions. Living people in the streets, like living queer people, younger people in Rijeka are trying to test whether the singular they fits them. Also a lot of non-binary people, even those who default to the quote-unquote opposite pronoun personal pronouns for them when they socially transition and live their non-binary identity more fully ⁓ So they would default to the quote-unquote opposite pronoun in Croatian, but they still use the singular they when speaking in English. There's also been, I've heard, reported instances, I mean locally, not like reported to somebody, but people told me that they know people where the queer youth prefer using English in their personal conversations because it's more neutral. It's still not really helpful in terms of speaking about fiction because in fiction I'm not sure I've seen any uses of singular they in creation, be it in translation or in a Croatian origin written word, or in fiction writing in Croatian originally. I might be wrong because I've been reading almost exclusively in English for a while now. The only fiction I read in Croatian is fiction I'm editing, so it's not translations, no. But I think it's harder to use singular they in the Croatian language because it really, really stinks of the plural. Even more to my ear than in English. But the big issue is, if we started and in 20 years' time, it would probably change. The way we hear the language would probably change the same way it has changed in English.

Andrew Hodges (08:03)
Yeah, I believe that.

VesnaK (08:04)
Yeah, and also it's not a new thing. For us a couple of decades ago a big thing was including he or she and we're still not fully on board with even that and I feel this would be a good but even a further step for the creation language. I'm not sure it's going to happen anytime soon. Sorry if it's too much of a downer.

Andrew Hodges (08:31)
Yeah, there's a neutral gender never used because that would be a no-no in English. It's perceived as dehumanizing calling somebody it unless they're a robot like Murderbot. What's that like in in Croatian?

VesnaK (08:41)
Yes. So there's a semi-notorious example. I think it's already been over 20 years. There was a famous character in the Vorkosigan Saga series by Lois McMaster Bujold, which was a major influence on speculative fiction writers and readers in Croatia. And there was a character who used, I think they used the neutral gender for themselves. I think it was before they, the singular they.

Not sure, but I think so. And different translators treated their language differently. I think somebody else, think at least one person tried to use ono [Croatian for "it"], but it didn't stick. But other translators did what I said that people who changed the way they speak, about themselves from what they had been given socially and what their true gender expression is in Croatian, I think they defaulted to another pronoun for the character, the translators.

The most discussions I've had on this topic specifically was with my partner Antonija, my co-owner of Shtriga, who has a Croatian language and literature diploma. So she's a Croatian language graduate, which is like a sacred thing in Croatia. And she's extremely against Ono, exactly for the reasons you said. The character is not a child, the character is not a pet, the character is not an object. So that would be a no from us too.

Andrew Hodges (10:05)
Right. Yeah, because in Croatia children are neutral gender. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

VesnaK (10:18)
In theory, yes, but in practice, people use gendered pronouns for kids more often than not. It's important to know whether you're wearing pink or whether you're wearing blue.

Andrew Hodges (10:33)
So are there any other gender issues or gendered language that show up in your writing and editing work?

VesnaK (10:39)
Our biggest hurdle, like, is past tenses because they're gendered in Croatian. 

Andy:

A bit like in French with Je suis alle(e). Yeah, that's probably the example many people, many listeners would know.

VesnaK (10:52)
Yep. You need to express your gender when you're speaking about yourself and you need to address the other person's gender or perceived gender when you're talking to them. Everything gets changed regarding gender. And another issue as we've mentioned a couple of minutes ago is the first person.

Andrew Hodges (11:05)
Yeah because the first person also almost exclusively needs to be gendered in Croatian. Not necessarily in the present tense, but still.

If you're trying for something different, either for a more inclusive language or for an experiment or whatever in Croatian, you need to really switch things around, turn things around to change your perspective on things. And do mental and language gymnastics to avoid gender. It's fun, it's a lot of fun, but not many authors dare to do that.

Andrew Hodges (11:57)
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense just thinking about the word my in English then in Croatian you have so many different endings on that that depend on gender and case. So I think what's going on there with the mental gymnastics is you have to deeply change your mindset with what is happening with gender in the language there because otherwise you will slip into old habits of using dominant genders and things like that.

VesnaK (12:26)
Mm-hmm and also active and passive language because that's also one of the ways you can switch things up, but it's different. You're not saying the same thing.

Andrew Hodges (12:31)
Yeah, I can just imagine it would be really difficult handling like stuff like that on a practical level with the Croatian language, but it also sounds like a fun challenge. So, yeah.

VesnaK (12:47)
If I can pitch one example I've seen where neutral gender was handled brilliantly. It's been a while since the story was published and it was only published in Croatian. I think only in print, so I'm really, really sorry about it. But our beloved late author of speculative fiction, Milena Benini, one of our biggest fantasy writers of all time, she wrote a wonderful story called **** Rue and the Weapons, where there were no slips in her writing, in the story. It was perfectly neutral. I loved it. I really, really loved it. So yeah, if you can read Croatian, it's a recommendation from me.

Andrew Hodges (13:16)
That's great and I'll put a link to some information about Benini in the show notes as well. I think that's really important. Next question, well you've already touched on this now, but any novels or stories with a non-binary focus with a Croatian link that you'd like to talk about?

VesnaK (13:28)
Mm-hmm.

Apart from Benini's story, I couldn't think of any, which might be ⁓ a personal thing, a personal failure. But I would really, really like to shout out my colleague and friend, Corrin Hunyak, who's a singular they artist and comic strip artist and professor at the Academy of Applied Arts in Lekha.

And they do wonderful work with exploring gender, especially non-binary identities in their graphic novels and their shorter comics. Their website is QuotientKhonyak.com, so it's really easy to read their comics online. They're currently, Mm-hmm. Yes. All the links.

Andrew Hodges (14:20)
Okay, I'll definitely put a link, another link going in the show notes. ⁓ I'll

I can mention briefly some literary fiction stuff. ⁓

VesnaK (14:27)
Yes, Please do.

Andrew Hodges (14:30)
Okay, I don't know many examples either but one example I do know is there's a book called Sons Daughters by Ivana Badojovic and that's been translated into English by Ellen Elias Bursac who is a really like well-known translator of literary fiction from Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Montenegrin etc. ⁓

VesnaK (14:40)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrew Hodges (14:56)
and this is a novel which I've not read yet but I really want to read it's on my TBR list about the love between a transgender man and a woman and it sounds from the blurb which again I'll link to it in the show notes but it sounds very much about these family relationships and about identity and gender pain and so on

VesnaK (15:01)
Now it's mine too. Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Hodges (15:24)
So I'll share that but there are a few other examples. If I really dug into the literary fiction space I do know that there's socially progressive work going on in that space that is translating interesting works into English and that would be another great topic for another episode.

Yeah, I wish there was more. That's the only thing. So...

VesnaK (15:47)
Yes,

the only other thing I could think of is a couple of novellas from my partner, Antonia Meznerich. She writes a lot of trans suffix in her horror fiction. Yeah, because she's an avid reader of trans authors in horror. I think some of her favorite

Andrew Hodges (15:59)
huh. ⁓ cool.

VesnaK (16:08)
books are body horror written by trans authors. So yeah.

Andrew Hodges (16:12)
⁓

cool, I really like reading horror as well.

VesnaK (16:17)
Mm-hmm. I edit it. I

hate reading it, but I love editing it

Andrew Hodges (16:22)
Yeah,

I mean atmosphere tension, those are really fun things to edit. Cool, anything else that you want to say on this topic?

VesnaK (16:26)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you gotta choose for yourself. If you're a writer who writes in a gender language or a language gendered as extensively as creation, you have to choose for yourself. I've heard some initiatives from, I think it was Serbian or Bosnian, I can't remember, where there was an initiative to use the neutral versions of

where it's like an example of which probably won't translate well is kucanica, which is like a housewife. And the neutral version would be kucancie. Or would it? Which is like, the problem is that the che is often used for also pets and children and diminutives. it's, there are so many options.

Andrew Hodges (17:02)
yeah.

VesnaK (17:25)
None of them are perfect, but I still think it's worth the effort to do the gymnastics and pose it as a challenge for yourself to see what you can do. The problem is that you have to learn everything else, plotting and style and characterization and everything when you're a writer, so that might be a step too far for you. But if you want to try, think.

Andrew Hodges (17:39)
Okay.

VesnaK (17:50)
better to try and have failed and not to have tried at all.

Andrew Hodges (17:53)
Yeah, I totally agree with that. And also the great thing about writing is you start writing, you write something that might not be that great, but then you can come back to it two or three years later when you know so much more and then you can do the gymnastics then. Yeah, that's what's so good about it. Nothing you write is ever wasted is what I like to say. yeah.

VesnaK (18:05)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Andrew Hodges (18:14)
Okay so yeah thank you very much again this is a really interesting and important discussion that I may well pick up yeah I might pick this discussion up again at some point in the future as I learn more about what's happening also in the literary fiction space because I think it's it's super important especially right now with all this hard write.

VesnaK (18:21)
Thank you, it was really, really fun.

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Hodges (18:35)
stress in the world yeah to put it mildly yeah let's just yeah stress no it's existential dreads yeah yeah so thank you for being a guest here again

VesnaK (18:37)
Existential dread.

You

Andrew Hodges (18:47)
I will put links to Stringer books and everything else in the show notes and thank you as well to everybody who's listened this far so subscribe if you haven't already and you will hear from me again very soon

VesnaK (18:50)
Mm-hmm.